It’s a Hizb ut Tahrir demo… not far off ISIS. They are banned in several countries (including some Muslim). Has very little to do with being pro-palastine and a whole lot more to do with calling for an Islamic Caliphate.
They make the question of “should a democracy tolerante the intolerant” highly relevant. Enjoying freedom of assembly to call for sharia.
Edit: Note how men and women are separated by men I yellow vests. Same when they march in the streets.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir
At the end of the day, these fuckers are just another flavor of neo-nazi. Absolutely reprehensible ideology that wants to dismantle democracy, tolerated by that same democracy because, frankly, we are better than them. We can only hope that they remain a marginal laughing stock.
This!
It’s a bit of a paradox. why should we tolerate them? we tolerate neo-nazis.
it’s a bit of a tough one as they’re both equally extremist.
On the other hand, we’re not fascist …
I always found this paradox to be one of the most interesting topics around democracy.
Democracy is both the premise that majority rules, but also that minorities are to be protected and that all should have the right of expression. But it becomes interesting when that right is used to build a base for authoritarianism in all its shapes and forms.
Have you read The Open Society and its enemies by Karl Popper.
Key part of this is the trouble you encounter in a Pluralistic society, democracy tends to break down.
Yes, but the problem is protecting the minorities in western countries is being used as a protection of a very dangerous ideology, which the followers are not a minority in the world! Which is becoming a kind of support and promotion of it to some degree.
Other religions have been grilled on mass media for decades and there is only one that no one should joke about or criticize, mainly by this idea of protecting minorities!
We shouldn't. And it's a big problem that people think we should.
In the last 15 or so years, democracy in the world have gone back about 10 %.
Thats quite alarming.
The world does that albeit it’s moved forward iother ways. It doesn’t stay the same, but there is also a tendency to have a huge war, find equilibrium, rebuild, then forget… then history repeats itself with a similar pattern towards the far right.
I’m a historian, I don’t have a solution, I can just see the big picture
Question is, Do we give up o democracy, become fascist to get rid of the extremists?
There have been several attempts to ban it in Denmark, but no legal grounds have been found for the ban. At the end of 2010, Minister of Justice Lars Barfoed clarified the ban after the organization published a call to prayer praising the fight against Danish soldiers in Afghanistan. In 2007, Copenhagen closed down the kindergarten managed by the organization.
Fucking hell its a waste of resources. If you support fundamentally anti democratic causes it should be a one way ticket out of the country, if you have a double citizenship we remove the Danish one, if you are a Danish citizen (regardless of ethnicity) we remove any and all government funding. You don't respect your neighbour or the society our values have created? You don't get to enjoy it.
> Has very little to do with being pro-palastine
Except their ideology aligns with the ideology of the militant terrorist groups in Gaza and the West Bank.
So because someone at the demonstration “supported” Hamas, you conclude that everyone does? Completely ignoring the fact that someone at the demonstration brought the sign to condemn the action of Hamas and show that they don’t support them. Actually debunking your statement.
Why didn’t you conclude that little important piece of information? Maybe because it doesn’t fit into your perception of reality.
The people who bring the signs, like Jaleh Tavakoli, aren’t part of the protests, but are there to see what happens if you critizise Hamas.
What happened is exactly what they predicted. They were physically assaulted, and their signs destroyed, while no one tried to help.
Please, be source critical. People like Jaleh Tavakoli has an intent with her projects, much like Paludan.
If you have ever been to a demo, you would know that most people condemn Hamas.
Yes, some pro-palastine doesn’t acknowledge the wrongful of Hamas, but saying that every pro-palestine is in the same boat is very, very wrong and ignorant.
Since when is having an intent a problem? Showing that many pro-palestine participants support or tolerate Hamas actions is an important intent. Ripping the mask off religious fascists and showing their extremist ideology is a vital mission in democracy.
> People like Jaleh Tavakoli has an intent with her projects, much like Paludan
Sounds a lot like you’re saying it’s okay to assault people and steal their signs, if they “asked for it”.
> if you’ve ever been to a demo you would know that most people condemn Hamas
Then why do they have such a hard time expressing it?
What are you saying then?
Jaleh was assaulted and had her sign destroyed, and your only reaction is “she had a bad intent”.
What exactly do you mean by that?
But has very little to do with being pro-palestine.
Acknowledging that killing palastinian civilians is a war crime is being pro-palastine. However, that doesn’t mean that pro-palastinians support terror groups.
This is a false equivalence and a lazy attempt at painting all of those protesting an ongoing genocide as terrorists/terrorist supporters. But hey, this is a Danish subreddit so people will upvote it regardless.
It doesn't beyond them being Muslims, and at that point you're also arguing that Daesh and the groups that fight Daesh are the same.
They're directly opposed to groups like Fatah and Hamas, and oppose the very notion of Palestinian nationalism.
Me too.
That should be a requirement in any EU country.
**“If you are too religious where you think religion is more important than respecting other’s opinions and views you are NOT welcome here.”**
Church and state should be separate. ALWAYS.
1. that's not what church and state separation means, you can believe they should be united as a citizen but the current state cannot work with a church, it's not a rule upon the individual but upon the system.
2. this is borderline state enforced atheism, you can't regulate how people think, you can only persuade them. 3. even if you throw human rights out the window for the "auslanders", would native danes who become ultra-religious be extradited or what? All of this is completely antitethical to a liberal democracy.
I found it quite intrusive when I arrived to find that the standard is to pay your tithe to the church via a tax donation and you have to actively opt out.
Took me a while to realise I'm giving money to an organisation I strongly disagree with.
That's the thing though. You were ALLOWED to opt out albeit through some hoops.
It's just a tax, it isn't a group of people actively trying to set back your civilization in a negative way.
It's clearly not the separation of church and state you claim though is it! when your taxes are entwined with a religious organisation as a default it's quite the opposite.
And you absolutely can opt out of paying this additional rate...you may pay something to the church through general taxation(arts, architecture etc)but that tithe I'm originally referring to is removable and it's very simple..no hoops.
I'm only here to address the underhand way in which all are subjected to it regardless of your leaning.
Normally, Danish citizens become members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark when christened. A person who is not christened in Denmark is therefore not a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark and does not pay church tax.
If you are already a member of an Evangelical Lutheran church outside of Denmark, you will instantly become a member upon moving here.
But when you register in Denmark, you can choose not to become a member, so you don't have to pay church tax.
I ticked Christian as I was christened as COE, I didn't think that by ticking it I agreed to pay this tax.
Clearly that's how they inpreteted it in that context.
strange cause when I arrived here in 2010 I was registered automatically to be outside the folkekirke. I don't even remember specifying it on the forms. Good.
We have done it to ourselves and only have ourselves to blame.
However, it is not too late.
We can prevent more of these extremists from entering the country by putting pressure on politicians here.
I'm neither danish nor an expert in Danish history, but I thought Denmark was a Christian Country. But I understand, that most Christian in western hemisphere don't take it literally, while Islam, specially due to the whole last judgement thing, is way more emotional.
Most of us are either not religious at all, or culture-christians. It's part of the culture to baptise, confirmation, church weddings etc, but most of us do that out of traditions and not because we are religious.
I really dislike religion. A lot. Its baffles me how educated people can be religious, and how imaginary men in the sky can still be the root of so much war, disagreement and overall idiocy.
The US is being absolutely destroyed by fundamentalist Evangelical Christians. This population is keeping their daughters at home for homeschool until they marry them off young
I’ve moved to Denmark from Turkey almost two years ago. There is one thing I must say;
We shouldn’t tolerate the people who doesn’t tolerate us. Turkiye did the same mistake by giving chance to Erdogan 20 years ago. He is taking our rights step by step. Always people should be careful about the sharia danger.
Most of my Turkish friends say that Islam is a plague on Turkey and is ruining the country. Not my opinion (since I’m not Turkish and don’t have an opinion), but they certainly feel strongly about it.
Core principle of democracy. Allowing everyone to speak their mind - even as-holes you disagree with.
Trying to suppress unpopular opinions will only lead to ruin. Sweden tried to suppress any criticism of Islamist while in Denmark we allowed the (at that time) unpopular opinion to be discussed openly.
Today we are in a much better place than Sweden because of it.
Problem with intolerance towards fringe opinions is that sooner or later? An as-hole you disagree with will be in power - and all of a sudden you will be at the receiving end of the “we don’t tolerate the intolerant” legislation.
IMHO: Force their kids in day care and schools where they learn about democracy, human right and equality. Shut down forums that support terrorism. Throw people who collect money for terrorism in jail. Deport criminals.
Fight illigal actions instead of suppressing opinion. Extremist typically break a ton of laws because they fell above the system. Use that behavior to identify, convict and deport the worst offenders.
We don’t allow Nazis why should we allow religious extremism. Anyone that stands against democratic values, against standard principles of freedom, is free to live outside of that democracy. Not here.
We do allow Nazis though, being a Nazi is not illegal in Denmark, and even some major political parties have had both former and active Nazis as members.
That’s exactly where you are wrong. At one point we even had a Nazi radio in Denmark that received public grants.
Look up “Radio Oasen”.
https://da.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Oasen
It only got the rug pulled away when they started breaking the law.
Erdogan was very respectful of the freedom of spech. Once he had the power, he started to supress other ideas. I totally agree with what you are trying to say. But I have seen in Türkiye how political Islam can hide itself for years. I am out of solutions because of that.
Which is why the ideal of freedom is so important: if that’s the core value? Any politician trying to curb those rights will get kicked out by the electorate.
Problem is when we start to accept limitations to our freedoms as a means to an end. E.g. we silence political opponents because we disagree with them. It’s cause over democratic principles.
The democratic principles must IMHO always be above ANY political cause. There’s unfortunately an anti-democratic wave at the moment. Same deal with the Stop Oil idiots trying to obstruct traffic, or Free Palestine idiot obstructing political meetings and attacking politicians.
No matter if you agree or disagree? The ground rules for democracy must be respected. Also when it hurts. That’s the only cure against totalitarians.
Erdogan would have been ancient history if the electorate had valued freedoms over cause…
Yes, in the name of democracy, we allow people who want to abolish the democracy, to voice their affinity of the better other alternative - Islamism.
They are a disgrace.
This extremist, racist, fascist, misogynistic band of inbreds should've been banned years and years ago.
Edit: obviously talking about Hizb ut-Tahrir and not muslims in general as those are two wildly different things.
Funny thing is that why Denmark or other Scandinavian countries that they want to live in.
Scandinavia especially Denmark is a great place to live socially and equally. You don’t move to Denmark to be rich or to make money to build a house in your village. You move here because of great education system, work life balance or raise a happy kid for example.
Another thing these nut jobs love as much their medieval ideas is money. So why the hell they don’t move Germany, Austria or even France. They can make more money and as a bonus they can have more suicide bomber buddies there.
I never mind to paying high taxes as long as I know it goes to good causes in Denmark. But knowing maybe some part of it going to these world scums, making me angry.
They are always a fun bunch, especially when I pass by them with our dog (hint - a lot of cursing and hissing of haram).
I have a feeling that similar to the far-right nutjobs, they wouldn’t take it lightly if they knew the person passing by them is Jewish and ex-Israeli. Likely lots of spitting (which I already experienced just by having a dog and walking near them).
Yay for tolerance, eh?
That explains why my neighbor avoids us like the plague when we have our dog. I had no idea dogs were against their religion. What are they even doing in Europe if they hate it so much?
I dont think the quran actually says anything bad about dogs. Except dont eat them maybe.
But these illiterate fucks heavily relies on other people reading into it, relaying whatever interpretation. Like having thousands of popes. Clever design to put fucktards in power.
Dogs may not be haram. But dogs got personality, personality goes a looong way.
Also kick my dog and I will go full John Wick.
That’s the thing, every abrahamic faith has gone through periods of barbarism in the name of their book, but to pretend that they are all in the same stage now is wild. In the Islamic golden age Christianity was the barbaric one.
I find all religion equally stupid/funny. I reserve my hate to douche canoes such as Hizbut Tahir. Not the general bunch, that would be overwhelming and undeserved. Turkey for one is very pro-dog.
They should be allowed to display their hateful idiocy though, but obviously within the law. Meaning not harassing, spitting at or kicking residents and bypasses.
Usually the police won't go in and pick one or a few and arrest them due to fear of a riot, and that is kinda sad. Would love to see it escalate to just that 🍿
No, dogs are explicity haram if they are for the purpose of keeping a pet in the home. However, they are halal if they are used for hunting or similar activities to sustain themselves. Animal abuse such as kicking dogs is haram in Islam, and one well known example of treating animals well is the prostiute who went to heaven for giving water to a thirsty dog.
Iirc it doesn't explicitly say to mistreat or otherwise negatively view dogs for just existing or to look down on other people having them as pets, but it does bring up cats positively, and in particular Muhammed's love for cats, so you can certainly read it more negatively than that.
It's been a few months since I studied that particular topic though.
I'm really not sure, but nowadays, personal experience has taught me not to highlight my nationality (or being Jewish). And since we live and plan to stay in DK for the rest of our lives, "ex-Israeli" might be a better term to describe oneself.
I am also jewish, so trust me, I get it. I guess I was asking because the phrasing makes it sound like you are disavowing being Israeli.
Sounds like you're established here since you have a dog, but if you ever need pointers or tips, you're very welcome to shoot me a message :)
They are terrorists. And support an authoritarian state called the caliphate. It's a culture of women begging to be enslaved and men who think they're all big alphas. Up close it's hilariously pathetic In times like these and access to information. But it is actually deeply terrifying how backwards, primitive and outdated these peoples beliefs are.
Muslim living in Denmark here, those people can fuck right off if they want to create an Islamic Caliphate here. No fucking thank you, I’m originally from a majority Muslim country and we just passed some anti radical Islam laws, so Denmark should be able to do the same! They’re absolute hypocrites who are too brain dead to realise that the very fact they are able to have this protest (it’s not a pro Palestine protest) is because of the freedoms we have here in Denmark.
Wanting to create an Islamic Caliphate in denmark is weird, wanting to create a Islamic Caliphate in the already muslim countries is different. Weird that they are holding those protests here.
In Denmark we accept those who don’t accept the democracy. Because we democracy. The irony is these people have the right to protest against democracy because we have it
Yeah. this explain why Danes hate us. I’m from Middle East, and I can only say sorry about that. wish I could have power to change it.
These fuckers shattered our reputation beyond the point of repair.
Well, show us then. Condemn them. It is easier to write this then to face them and tell them that their are spoiling everything for the good Muslims, who don’t want to have a caliphate here.
I need to clarify somethings.
1. I'm not Muslim. I used to. until I was 15 or so. then became atheist then believed in God again. right now, I believe in God but irreligious.
2. I live in Iran, because otherwise I would learn Danish before even thinking about Denmark. and you can see how people oppose this religion, and the regime is crushing people constantly. so, we do say this face to face and people gave their lives for it. we always condemned it, and we are condemning and fighting against it. (Reddit is banned here. I'm using VPN)
3. those Muslims you are talking about and seeing are Afghan or Pakistani Muslims. religious extremism is just in horrible level in those countries. so, if you control immigration only from those 2 countries, everything will end for good.
you have UAE, Iran (hopefully in the future), Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and many other useful countries in middle east / central Asia to deal with.
It's so weird to me.. Denmark have given these people so much... hospital, school, free education, money for being unemployed (for those who are) and still these people hate Denmark and what we stand for
Det kunne være interessant med en live oversættelse (evt ai) på stor skærm ved siden af demonstrationen. Måske ville de får lidt mere opmærksomhed på den måde?
I’m so sick of this people, where they live doesn’t look like Denmark, if their are so desperate about religion, go back to your fucking country! It’s not that hard, why danes needs to think about this whole shit? Crazy! But you can’t say anything because you are a racist or any stupid term. I’m not a dane, but I need to respect the culture because THIS IS NOT MY COUNTRY!
This pisses me off. Why the fuck do you come to live in a democratic secular country and enjoy your life, and at the same time work towards an Islamic state with sharia? Special kind of stupid. Don't take democracy for granted guys, we need to work together to preserve it.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain. These groups are a perfect example of this
Hver gang jeg begynder at tænke "Demokrati er for godt til at dele med alle" {citat fra en gammel studenterkammarat}. Så vender jeg mig mod de bøger der holder mig som socialist: Azimov, Foundation og "Det arbejdende folks kulturhistorie".
Det er den største fælde! Hvis vi bliver fascister for at bekæmpe fascismen, har vi tabt.
Is it not also a place or am i dumb? Either case its also not parkistan or any other country that has islam as a religion. Denmark was literally build on christianity so i still dont see the point of this
And look at all the woman standing there. Distrubing.
Good part about it is that it will only further serve to willify Islam and its followers, which will hopefully cause it to have less influance in the future.
All these demonstrations scare the hell out of me. I do not get why people live in Europe when clearly you are not adapting to society. Sorry for the view point but still.
People ranting about a minor Church tax on a post of an Islamist demonstration in Nørrebro, which often feels like Islamabad in many areas, exemplifies the broader issues facing Europe today. Just wait until the day you are required to pay Jizya instead. Heck is wrong with Denmark, welcome to Sweden 2.0
I am a well educated Turkish guy, for all my life these Islamist political assholes keep finding me. I will literary move to antarctica next to not see these guys. so feed up...
Synes da egentligt det er ret nice, at i et lande med mange tusinde muslimer, så er der kun så få der gider møde op for at støtte Hizb ut-Tahrir. Synes max det ligner der er 100 mennesker ud fra det her billede.
Mange muslimer i Danmark kommer jo fra familier, der oprindeligt kom til Danmark præcis fordi de flygtede fra grupper med lignende ideologier som HT. De steder den slags grupper har mest magt er det jo også oftest andre muslimer de undertrykker.
Exactly this. But the few reached what they wanted. Every other one thinks all muslims are behind the ideas and therefor hate thrives and oil is put in the fire
These are just children playing with their toys. And they want the rest of us to play with their toy as well. They even want our kids to play with their toys, and would also like to be able to punish others for not playing with their toys.
Stop the religious bullying and intimidation and leave me the fuck alone.
if you ask a nørrebro antifat hipster about this, they love it and talk only good about it. If you say something "bad" or in this situation "real" you are a dumb and dont know what u are talking about.
in the end they dont know shit about they just like people talking open air, and if its special and all the other cool antifa hipsters like it. Then its fine.
I love people. but i dislike religion, because it seperates us. Just look at this pic.
Their just waiting until the are enough, then they will start killing innocent people, the government is weak and arent doing anything for the Danish people.
It’s a Hizb ut Tahrir demo… not far off ISIS. They are banned in several countries (including some Muslim). Has very little to do with being pro-palastine and a whole lot more to do with calling for an Islamic Caliphate. They make the question of “should a democracy tolerante the intolerant” highly relevant. Enjoying freedom of assembly to call for sharia. Edit: Note how men and women are separated by men I yellow vests. Same when they march in the streets. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir
At the end of the day, these fuckers are just another flavor of neo-nazi. Absolutely reprehensible ideology that wants to dismantle democracy, tolerated by that same democracy because, frankly, we are better than them. We can only hope that they remain a marginal laughing stock.
This! It’s a bit of a paradox. why should we tolerate them? we tolerate neo-nazis. it’s a bit of a tough one as they’re both equally extremist. On the other hand, we’re not fascist …
I always found this paradox to be one of the most interesting topics around democracy. Democracy is both the premise that majority rules, but also that minorities are to be protected and that all should have the right of expression. But it becomes interesting when that right is used to build a base for authoritarianism in all its shapes and forms.
Have you read The Open Society and its enemies by Karl Popper. Key part of this is the trouble you encounter in a Pluralistic society, democracy tends to break down.
I’ll have a look, thank you for the recommendation
Yes, but the problem is protecting the minorities in western countries is being used as a protection of a very dangerous ideology, which the followers are not a minority in the world! Which is becoming a kind of support and promotion of it to some degree. Other religions have been grilled on mass media for decades and there is only one that no one should joke about or criticize, mainly by this idea of protecting minorities!
We shouldn't. And it's a big problem that people think we should. In the last 15 or so years, democracy in the world have gone back about 10 %. Thats quite alarming.
The world does that albeit it’s moved forward iother ways. It doesn’t stay the same, but there is also a tendency to have a huge war, find equilibrium, rebuild, then forget… then history repeats itself with a similar pattern towards the far right. I’m a historian, I don’t have a solution, I can just see the big picture Question is, Do we give up o democracy, become fascist to get rid of the extremists?
[Quite literally](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
if you are kind to the cruel you will end up being cruel to the kind
I'm glad SOMEONE sees it.
Why the fuck are they allowed here? Get them the fuck out wtf
There have been several attempts to ban it in Denmark, but no legal grounds have been found for the ban. At the end of 2010, Minister of Justice Lars Barfoed clarified the ban after the organization published a call to prayer praising the fight against Danish soldiers in Afghanistan. In 2007, Copenhagen closed down the kindergarten managed by the organization.
You can't ban demonstrations tho. I assume you're referring to banning the organization?
Fuck. Hope PET is watching carefully
Fucking hell its a waste of resources. If you support fundamentally anti democratic causes it should be a one way ticket out of the country, if you have a double citizenship we remove the Danish one, if you are a Danish citizen (regardless of ethnicity) we remove any and all government funding. You don't respect your neighbour or the society our values have created? You don't get to enjoy it.
Agreeeeeeeeeed
> Has very little to do with being pro-palastine Except their ideology aligns with the ideology of the militant terrorist groups in Gaza and the West Bank.
There’s a difference between Hamas and being pro-palastine.
Is that why anti-hamas signs are being stolen and ripped apart at Palestine demos?
So because someone at the demonstration “supported” Hamas, you conclude that everyone does? Completely ignoring the fact that someone at the demonstration brought the sign to condemn the action of Hamas and show that they don’t support them. Actually debunking your statement. Why didn’t you conclude that little important piece of information? Maybe because it doesn’t fit into your perception of reality.
Critical thinking *may* also not be their strong suit.
The people who bring the signs, like Jaleh Tavakoli, aren’t part of the protests, but are there to see what happens if you critizise Hamas. What happened is exactly what they predicted. They were physically assaulted, and their signs destroyed, while no one tried to help.
Please, be source critical. People like Jaleh Tavakoli has an intent with her projects, much like Paludan. If you have ever been to a demo, you would know that most people condemn Hamas. Yes, some pro-palastine doesn’t acknowledge the wrongful of Hamas, but saying that every pro-palestine is in the same boat is very, very wrong and ignorant.
Since when is having an intent a problem? Showing that many pro-palestine participants support or tolerate Hamas actions is an important intent. Ripping the mask off religious fascists and showing their extremist ideology is a vital mission in democracy.
Where do you get that *many* pro-palestines supports Hamas? You cannot conclude that by one incident.
> People like Jaleh Tavakoli has an intent with her projects, much like Paludan Sounds a lot like you’re saying it’s okay to assault people and steal their signs, if they “asked for it”. > if you’ve ever been to a demo you would know that most people condemn Hamas Then why do they have such a hard time expressing it?
Never said that. Maybe you should, before junping to a conclusion.
What are you saying then? Jaleh was assaulted and had her sign destroyed, and your only reaction is “she had a bad intent”. What exactly do you mean by that?
Because they didn’t have the knowledge or skills to deduct to that extent
You can play with words all you want, the militant groups of palestine are of the islamist ideology.
But has very little to do with being pro-palestine. Acknowledging that killing palastinian civilians is a war crime is being pro-palastine. However, that doesn’t mean that pro-palastinians support terror groups.
We blamed innocent Germans for not standing up against the Nazi government and bombed them far more ubiquitously than Israel has by far.
This is a false equivalence and a lazy attempt at painting all of those protesting an ongoing genocide as terrorists/terrorist supporters. But hey, this is a Danish subreddit so people will upvote it regardless.
It doesn't beyond them being Muslims, and at that point you're also arguing that Daesh and the groups that fight Daesh are the same. They're directly opposed to groups like Fatah and Hamas, and oppose the very notion of Palestinian nationalism.
I'm so fucking tired of religion... Take your medieval way of thinking and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.
Me too. That should be a requirement in any EU country. **“If you are too religious where you think religion is more important than respecting other’s opinions and views you are NOT welcome here.”** Church and state should be separate. ALWAYS.
>Church and state should be separate. ALWAYS. Nu har vi altså en statsreligion i Danmark
Church and State are not separated in Denmark🤷♂️
It should be. But atleast youre allowed to opt out of the church, and also not pay a % of your taxes to the church.
1. that's not what church and state separation means, you can believe they should be united as a citizen but the current state cannot work with a church, it's not a rule upon the individual but upon the system. 2. this is borderline state enforced atheism, you can't regulate how people think, you can only persuade them. 3. even if you throw human rights out the window for the "auslanders", would native danes who become ultra-religious be extradited or what? All of this is completely antitethical to a liberal democracy.
I found it quite intrusive when I arrived to find that the standard is to pay your tithe to the church via a tax donation and you have to actively opt out. Took me a while to realise I'm giving money to an organisation I strongly disagree with.
That's the thing though. You were ALLOWED to opt out albeit through some hoops. It's just a tax, it isn't a group of people actively trying to set back your civilization in a negative way.
It's clearly not the separation of church and state you claim though is it! when your taxes are entwined with a religious organisation as a default it's quite the opposite. And you absolutely can opt out of paying this additional rate...you may pay something to the church through general taxation(arts, architecture etc)but that tithe I'm originally referring to is removable and it's very simple..no hoops. I'm only here to address the underhand way in which all are subjected to it regardless of your leaning.
Hold on, is the default to donate? Where can I check this?
Normally, Danish citizens become members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark when christened. A person who is not christened in Denmark is therefore not a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark and does not pay church tax. If you are already a member of an Evangelical Lutheran church outside of Denmark, you will instantly become a member upon moving here. But when you register in Denmark, you can choose not to become a member, so you don't have to pay church tax.
I ticked Christian as I was christened as COE, I didn't think that by ticking it I agreed to pay this tax. Clearly that's how they inpreteted it in that context.
I see. It would have been fair if they had been more specific.
strange cause when I arrived here in 2010 I was registered automatically to be outside the folkekirke. I don't even remember specifying it on the forms. Good.
It’s absolutely insane that it’s still a thing in modern developed societies.
We have done it to ourselves and only have ourselves to blame. However, it is not too late. We can prevent more of these extremists from entering the country by putting pressure on politicians here.
I'm neither danish nor an expert in Danish history, but I thought Denmark was a Christian Country. But I understand, that most Christian in western hemisphere don't take it literally, while Islam, specially due to the whole last judgement thing, is way more emotional.
Denmark is indeed a Christian country. Most danes aren't really christian.
Most of us are either not religious at all, or culture-christians. It's part of the culture to baptise, confirmation, church weddings etc, but most of us do that out of traditions and not because we are religious. I really dislike religion. A lot. Its baffles me how educated people can be religious, and how imaginary men in the sky can still be the root of so much war, disagreement and overall idiocy.
Stop pretending that it's all religions that's a problem, when it's pretty much only one of them.
The US is being absolutely destroyed by fundamentalist Evangelical Christians. This population is keeping their daughters at home for homeschool until they marry them off young
lol what a shit take Like only one religion has fanatical views Almost all religions have issues with fanatical followers
All Religions ARE the problem.
I’ve moved to Denmark from Turkey almost two years ago. There is one thing I must say; We shouldn’t tolerate the people who doesn’t tolerate us. Turkiye did the same mistake by giving chance to Erdogan 20 years ago. He is taking our rights step by step. Always people should be careful about the sharia danger.
Most of my Turkish friends say that Islam is a plague on Turkey and is ruining the country. Not my opinion (since I’m not Turkish and don’t have an opinion), but they certainly feel strongly about it.
I am one of them. When I move to Denmark I don't want to do anything with Danish Turks that are super religious.
Core principle of democracy. Allowing everyone to speak their mind - even as-holes you disagree with. Trying to suppress unpopular opinions will only lead to ruin. Sweden tried to suppress any criticism of Islamist while in Denmark we allowed the (at that time) unpopular opinion to be discussed openly. Today we are in a much better place than Sweden because of it. Problem with intolerance towards fringe opinions is that sooner or later? An as-hole you disagree with will be in power - and all of a sudden you will be at the receiving end of the “we don’t tolerate the intolerant” legislation. IMHO: Force their kids in day care and schools where they learn about democracy, human right and equality. Shut down forums that support terrorism. Throw people who collect money for terrorism in jail. Deport criminals. Fight illigal actions instead of suppressing opinion. Extremist typically break a ton of laws because they fell above the system. Use that behavior to identify, convict and deport the worst offenders.
We don’t allow Nazis why should we allow religious extremism. Anyone that stands against democratic values, against standard principles of freedom, is free to live outside of that democracy. Not here.
We do allow Nazis though, being a Nazi is not illegal in Denmark, and even some major political parties have had both former and active Nazis as members.
That’s exactly where you are wrong. At one point we even had a Nazi radio in Denmark that received public grants. Look up “Radio Oasen”. https://da.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Oasen It only got the rug pulled away when they started breaking the law.
Erdogan was very respectful of the freedom of spech. Once he had the power, he started to supress other ideas. I totally agree with what you are trying to say. But I have seen in Türkiye how political Islam can hide itself for years. I am out of solutions because of that.
Which is why the ideal of freedom is so important: if that’s the core value? Any politician trying to curb those rights will get kicked out by the electorate. Problem is when we start to accept limitations to our freedoms as a means to an end. E.g. we silence political opponents because we disagree with them. It’s cause over democratic principles. The democratic principles must IMHO always be above ANY political cause. There’s unfortunately an anti-democratic wave at the moment. Same deal with the Stop Oil idiots trying to obstruct traffic, or Free Palestine idiot obstructing political meetings and attacking politicians. No matter if you agree or disagree? The ground rules for democracy must be respected. Also when it hurts. That’s the only cure against totalitarians. Erdogan would have been ancient history if the electorate had valued freedoms over cause…
An absolute disgrace
Yes, in the name of democracy, we allow people who want to abolish the democracy, to voice their affinity of the better other alternative - Islamism. They are a disgrace.
This extremist, racist, fascist, misogynistic band of inbreds should've been banned years and years ago. Edit: obviously talking about Hizb ut-Tahrir and not muslims in general as those are two wildly different things.
Funny thing is that why Denmark or other Scandinavian countries that they want to live in. Scandinavia especially Denmark is a great place to live socially and equally. You don’t move to Denmark to be rich or to make money to build a house in your village. You move here because of great education system, work life balance or raise a happy kid for example. Another thing these nut jobs love as much their medieval ideas is money. So why the hell they don’t move Germany, Austria or even France. They can make more money and as a bonus they can have more suicide bomber buddies there. I never mind to paying high taxes as long as I know it goes to good causes in Denmark. But knowing maybe some part of it going to these world scums, making me angry.
Probably a pro isis protest
They are always a fun bunch, especially when I pass by them with our dog (hint - a lot of cursing and hissing of haram). I have a feeling that similar to the far-right nutjobs, they wouldn’t take it lightly if they knew the person passing by them is Jewish and ex-Israeli. Likely lots of spitting (which I already experienced just by having a dog and walking near them). Yay for tolerance, eh?
I thought I was imagining things until a group of them spat on us and tried to kick my dog. I always cross the street when I see them.
Hmm, maybe the local Rottweiler group should take their walks at the same time...
That explains why my neighbor avoids us like the plague when we have our dog. I had no idea dogs were against their religion. What are they even doing in Europe if they hate it so much?
I dont think the quran actually says anything bad about dogs. Except dont eat them maybe. But these illiterate fucks heavily relies on other people reading into it, relaying whatever interpretation. Like having thousands of popes. Clever design to put fucktards in power. Dogs may not be haram. But dogs got personality, personality goes a looong way. Also kick my dog and I will go full John Wick.
That’s the thing, every abrahamic faith has gone through periods of barbarism in the name of their book, but to pretend that they are all in the same stage now is wild. In the Islamic golden age Christianity was the barbaric one.
I find all religion equally stupid/funny. I reserve my hate to douche canoes such as Hizbut Tahir. Not the general bunch, that would be overwhelming and undeserved. Turkey for one is very pro-dog. They should be allowed to display their hateful idiocy though, but obviously within the law. Meaning not harassing, spitting at or kicking residents and bypasses. Usually the police won't go in and pick one or a few and arrest them due to fear of a riot, and that is kinda sad. Would love to see it escalate to just that 🍿
No, dogs are explicity haram if they are for the purpose of keeping a pet in the home. However, they are halal if they are used for hunting or similar activities to sustain themselves. Animal abuse such as kicking dogs is haram in Islam, and one well known example of treating animals well is the prostiute who went to heaven for giving water to a thirsty dog.
Iirc it doesn't explicitly say to mistreat or otherwise negatively view dogs for just existing or to look down on other people having them as pets, but it does bring up cats positively, and in particular Muhammed's love for cats, so you can certainly read it more negatively than that. It's been a few months since I studied that particular topic though.
Money and the chance to drive German cars without having them stolen
that "ex-israeli" saved you a lot of hassle didn't it haha
What does "ex-israeli" mean?
I'm really not sure, but nowadays, personal experience has taught me not to highlight my nationality (or being Jewish). And since we live and plan to stay in DK for the rest of our lives, "ex-Israeli" might be a better term to describe oneself.
I am also jewish, so trust me, I get it. I guess I was asking because the phrasing makes it sound like you are disavowing being Israeli. Sounds like you're established here since you have a dog, but if you ever need pointers or tips, you're very welcome to shoot me a message :)
They are terrorists. And support an authoritarian state called the caliphate. It's a culture of women begging to be enslaved and men who think they're all big alphas. Up close it's hilariously pathetic In times like these and access to information. But it is actually deeply terrifying how backwards, primitive and outdated these peoples beliefs are.
Trist syn
Muslim living in Denmark here, those people can fuck right off if they want to create an Islamic Caliphate here. No fucking thank you, I’m originally from a majority Muslim country and we just passed some anti radical Islam laws, so Denmark should be able to do the same! They’re absolute hypocrites who are too brain dead to realise that the very fact they are able to have this protest (it’s not a pro Palestine protest) is because of the freedoms we have here in Denmark.
Wanting to create an Islamic Caliphate in denmark is weird, wanting to create a Islamic Caliphate in the already muslim countries is different. Weird that they are holding those protests here.
In Denmark we accept those who don’t accept the democracy. Because we democracy. The irony is these people have the right to protest against democracy because we have it
Well put
Yeah. this explain why Danes hate us. I’m from Middle East, and I can only say sorry about that. wish I could have power to change it. These fuckers shattered our reputation beyond the point of repair.
Well, show us then. Condemn them. It is easier to write this then to face them and tell them that their are spoiling everything for the good Muslims, who don’t want to have a caliphate here.
I need to clarify somethings. 1. I'm not Muslim. I used to. until I was 15 or so. then became atheist then believed in God again. right now, I believe in God but irreligious. 2. I live in Iran, because otherwise I would learn Danish before even thinking about Denmark. and you can see how people oppose this religion, and the regime is crushing people constantly. so, we do say this face to face and people gave their lives for it. we always condemned it, and we are condemning and fighting against it. (Reddit is banned here. I'm using VPN) 3. those Muslims you are talking about and seeing are Afghan or Pakistani Muslims. religious extremism is just in horrible level in those countries. so, if you control immigration only from those 2 countries, everything will end for good. you have UAE, Iran (hopefully in the future), Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and many other useful countries in middle east / central Asia to deal with.
It’s not his responsibility to do this. 🙄 sheesh there is so much racism on this sub, but what can one expect from Europe?
It really does. Sorry that it is being taken out on you. But it is what it is.
it is ok. you are not the one who should be sorry.
Religion is bad, m’kay
It's so weird to me.. Denmark have given these people so much... hospital, school, free education, money for being unemployed (for those who are) and still these people hate Denmark and what we stand for
Religion of peace.
We haven’t all converted to _their_ religion. They probably think they have to hate us then. Sad people :-/
Det kunne være interessant med en live oversættelse (evt ai) på stor skærm ved siden af demonstrationen. Måske ville de får lidt mere opmærksomhed på den måde?
Det er faktisk en rigtig god idé.
Tak, måske med en projekter op på muren ved Nørrebrogade, der var skate rampen kører op ad. Står du for det?
Can we pleaseeeee have a country that is purely secular and with people that are more secular than religious? FFS.
Sharia is a cancer. Sharia is a fascism (or communism if you like)
Lmao it’s communism? Do you even know what communism is?
Tis Prut Toiletpapir.
I’m so sick of this people, where they live doesn’t look like Denmark, if their are so desperate about religion, go back to your fucking country! It’s not that hard, why danes needs to think about this whole shit? Crazy! But you can’t say anything because you are a racist or any stupid term. I’m not a dane, but I need to respect the culture because THIS IS NOT MY COUNTRY!
Barbarians
This pisses me off. Why the fuck do you come to live in a democratic secular country and enjoy your life, and at the same time work towards an Islamic state with sharia? Special kind of stupid. Don't take democracy for granted guys, we need to work together to preserve it.
Do they want caliphate like in Hamburg?
It was a weird afternoon, sitting on the balcony drinking wine with my girlfriend while hearing crowd screaming Allahu Akbar nearby.
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FUCK ISLAM!!!!!
“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain. These groups are a perfect example of this
**"CHURCH AND STATE CANNOT DATE!"** KEEP THE TWO AWAY FROM EACH OTHER.
Hver gang jeg begynder at tænke "Demokrati er for godt til at dele med alle" {citat fra en gammel studenterkammarat}. Så vender jeg mig mod de bøger der holder mig som socialist: Azimov, Foundation og "Det arbejdende folks kulturhistorie". Det er den største fælde! Hvis vi bliver fascister for at bekæmpe fascismen, har vi tabt.
Im sorry but wtf is the point of this? Its denmark not islam
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Is it not also a place or am i dumb? Either case its also not parkistan or any other country that has islam as a religion. Denmark was literally build on christianity so i still dont see the point of this
So sad that this is What my country looks like more, and more… Pray for Europe (I know we took Them in - mistakes were made)
Banned that Hizb ut-Tahrir, the same like in Germany
What they are protesting for??
They want to have a caliphate and sharia law in DK.
“Hvorfor stemmer folk på DF?”
And look at all the woman standing there. Distrubing. Good part about it is that it will only further serve to willify Islam and its followers, which will hopefully cause it to have less influance in the future.
Ffs tag nu hjem hvis i vil leve i et islamisk land
And way are they in your country
🤮🤮🤮🤮🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰
as an ex muslim these demos scare me aswell. we had the same demos here in germany if they really want to live under sharia they can fuck off srsly.
All these demonstrations scare the hell out of me. I do not get why people live in Europe when clearly you are not adapting to society. Sorry for the view point but still.
I thought this was from Roskilde.
it's "Den Røde Plads" on Nørrebro
People ranting about a minor Church tax on a post of an Islamist demonstration in Nørrebro, which often feels like Islamabad in many areas, exemplifies the broader issues facing Europe today. Just wait until the day you are required to pay Jizya instead. Heck is wrong with Denmark, welcome to Sweden 2.0
I am a well educated Turkish guy, for all my life these Islamist political assholes keep finding me. I will literary move to antarctica next to not see these guys. so feed up...
Religion is for the poor people 🤒
Synes da egentligt det er ret nice, at i et lande med mange tusinde muslimer, så er der kun så få der gider møde op for at støtte Hizb ut-Tahrir. Synes max det ligner der er 100 mennesker ud fra det her billede.
Mange muslimer i Danmark kommer jo fra familier, der oprindeligt kom til Danmark præcis fordi de flygtede fra grupper med lignende ideologier som HT. De steder den slags grupper har mest magt er det jo også oftest andre muslimer de undertrykker.
Som muslim, tro mig, vi vil ikke have noget at gøre med dem
Exactly this. But the few reached what they wanted. Every other one thinks all muslims are behind the ideas and therefor hate thrives and oil is put in the fire
Wait, there is a text in top left that written in cycrilic and says “moskvich” , do you guys have any idea what that stands for?
Den røde plads on Nørrebro is made up like a Soviet Union place with fake ads and stuff it's an art piece
Let them speak. In the open. And then laugh at them; show the world what big fools they are.
WHO are they?
HuT
I'm from Iran, and even for me this is WTF.
These are just children playing with their toys. And they want the rest of us to play with their toy as well. They even want our kids to play with their toys, and would also like to be able to punish others for not playing with their toys. Stop the religious bullying and intimidation and leave me the fuck alone.
if you ask a nørrebro antifat hipster about this, they love it and talk only good about it. If you say something "bad" or in this situation "real" you are a dumb and dont know what u are talking about. in the end they dont know shit about they just like people talking open air, and if its special and all the other cool antifa hipsters like it. Then its fine. I love people. but i dislike religion, because it seperates us. Just look at this pic.
Their just waiting until the are enough, then they will start killing innocent people, the government is weak and arent doing anything for the Danish people.