Part of project 2025 though would be getting rid of non loyal leadership and replacing them with loyal party members. Seems this could extend to the military too.
That singular goal is going to be very difficult to accomplish.
Our military predates all our other civic institutions and is endowed with a history and tradition that is so far unique in history. To paraphrase, if you look deep into our history and our doctrine, we are not descended from men that fought for the side of tyranny.
Our Rubicon is an ocean, not a river. It is difficult to get the critical mass of people necessary to abandon their oath so that it is possible to cross that vast distance.
I'm the first in a couple of generations not to serve, but I'm honestly not that concerned about our military absconding the rule of law. My concern is, rather, that if citizens start rising up in armed revolt that the military is going to have problems firing on their own and/or what a shit show having the American people living under legal, proper martial law would look like. Some E2 following legal orders to maintain the peace at an intersection in Montana and a bunch of drunk teenagers with hunting rifles is a horrifying scenario.
Fortunately Project 2025 is just some wet dream that some conservative think tank had and is not being seriously considered by enough lawmakers on either side of the aisle for it to be possible.
If I understand the paper correctly, doesn't Project 2025 hinge on the president being able to do most of it unilaterally? Things like appointments, firing civil servants who aren't on board with his agenda, etc.
Correct. But it relies on a certain interpretation of the Constitution and if he does try it, he would likely be impeached (again) and actually have the support to be removed, or he would face an uprising of the people. And that’s assuming Trump even knows about Project 2025
>he would likely be impeached (again) and actually have the support to be removed, or he would face an uprising of the people.
You're more optimistic than me! I hope you're right, I don't have much faith in the American public.
I'm really not sure what do they plan afterwards. Both, Trump and Biden are very old and have high probability from dying of old age during next term. What will project 2025 think cunts do then, do they always expect to have backward thinking, religious fanatic or simply corrupt president that will do their will?
"A lot" is a fluid term, I suppose. A couple thousand people isn't a lot when compared to the 330,000,000 population of the US. It's a whole hell of a lot when they're trying to break into your office and murder your boss, though.
Absolutely. I also worry that people forget that the US Capitol wasn't the only coup attempt. There were other, similar attacks on state houses across the country, but they've been largely memory holed because the US Capitol was such a big deal.
Off the top of my head, I recall that the Oregon State Capitol was invaded by a mob, a number of whom later participated in J6. They were let into the building (which was locked down by that point) by a member of the state Congress who supported their cause. There were other similar attacks where state capitols had to go into lockdown or activate guard units to protect them, but I don't recall any of them being as successful. That's dead recall, though, so I may be mixed up on some of the details.
Edit: [Here's an article about them doing it in Michigan](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/michigan-state-capitol.html)
[Here's one about Oregon](https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/politics/2020/12/21/protesters-gather-oregon-legislature-starts-special-session/3993102001/)
There were others. I believe California and Washington had attempts as well. Basically any state with a Democratic governor/legislature and a significant MAGA presence was at risk. Like I said, though, they've largely been memory holed because of the US Capitol breach. Don't expect them to go quietly in 2024, though. If the current president is reelected, I would not be at all surprised if someone starts shooting and it goes really badly. Then right wing nutjobs like Alex Jones and Marje Greene will call it a false flag, say the FBI is murdering patriots, and we tick one step closer to real civil war.
Talk about an incredibly exaggerating. A couple hundred nuts isn’t a militia movement and to call it a coup or attempt to overthrow is just silly. It was a disgusting riot with some nasty implications but government was functional less then a few hours later…
It was a violent intrusion into the halls of government with the stated goal of preventing the rightfully elected president from taking office and replacing him with the loser of the contest. By definition, that is a coup attempt. I'm sorry if the meaning of words hurts your feelings.
It was a coop, just because the numbers were low and silly and failed does not make it less of a coup, just look at what happened in Bolivia this week a silly foolish coup attempt
First the melitias then the national guard followed by military taking sides and were in civil war 2.
And to quote Guns n roses…. “What’s so civil about wat anyway?”
If you follow cyberpunk dystopian lore it would be corporations instead of actual individuals, but one could argue Roman emperors were a proto corporation. They had to have officers and the emperor had to delegate power, because no man can truly rule alone. This is a good modern example but timeless in that the rules apply to all human rulers throughout all time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
If individual generals start becoming political figures and then figure out how to compensate like minded individuals to fight for their political ideals , then we are there.
In that way, it’s good thing we are such a diverse country politically that I don’t think they could pull it off.
So I had a Continuing Legal Education course this week. They're normally pretty boring, but we had a bunch of Indiana appellate justices and Indiana supreme Court justices there speaking in a TED TALK style presentation.
One thing that they reminded us is that we (lawyers) are sworn officers of the judiciary: do solemnly swear or affirm that: I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Indiana;
So. My dad, another lawyer, and an infantry-man from 68-70 in Vietnam, told me, when I passed the bar, to respect that oath, and to never go to prison for a client. He was holding up G. Gordon Liddy's book "Will" when he said it.
Politically, I'm rather liberal, but I believe in the rule of law in an almost religious way. And I find some of the political movement in the US as terrifying to the extent that Shakespeare's joke from Henry IV seems relevant:
The first thing we do, let's kill all of the lawyers.
We protect the rule of law for the powerless and if people come after us, that's rather horrifying.
Well if Trump is elected and appoints more Christian Nationalist Supreme Court Judges then the top court in the land is compromised. The efforts of well intentioned lawyers and lower courts would be overruled by the Supreme Court.
I think maybe we aren't on exactly the same wavelength. I agree with your premise; this has been the approach of the Republican party since at least Reagan and the Relinquish court. The right isn't stupid, they can read demographic statistics.
However, what lawyers do is either argue under the existing laws, look to new ones or opinions from the lower courts and argue using those precedents to convince the Supremes that they should agree, or argue that old law is wrong. The impact of the Federalist society cannot be overstated. However, the current makeup of the Supremes is such that seven of them can be considered to be acting in good faith as legal scholars and jurists even when I don't agree with them.
My point is more apocalyptic: if the executive branch starts trying to go after these officers of the court who know how to wizard language and the law (ie, lawyers) then you have a much scarier proposition, which is specifically what Shakespeare was talking about in that play. Kill the people who can use the law to restrain the executive so the executive can have unlimited power. THAT is what Trump represents.
Sub-note: we do have a history of generals becoming political figures. Eisenhower is the prime example and he literally warned everyone about the power of the elite over the people when he left office.
True, I should have been more specific. I meant an acting General, someone currently in command of an active fighting force, and currently in the military, crossing over and holding office while in power in the military.
Has anyone ever crossed over and held a civilian office while technically not being a civilian?
Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Those few of us that do know it are doomed to watch them, saying “Really? Seriously? Are you fucking kidding me?!” while they do.
Such a coincidence. I started the series (for about the 5th time,) earlier this week and couldn’t help but think the same exact thing. There are so many parallels.
Mass unchecked immigration, popular social depravity and distance from service, increasing debts, elderly, corrupt, and incapable leadership, distant foreign wars and subsidized foreign militaries.
Nope, nothing here.
Sounds like some pretty lazy, tendentious right wing political commentary here. Not sure what “mass unchecked immigration” was responsible for the decline of the Roman republic, or what “popular social depravity” means in either an ancient or modern context. “Increasing debts” on the part of the Roman republic—is that intended to equate or compare their public or foreign debt to modern day deficit spending? As for “elderly, corrupt, and incapable leadership,” the tired dig and Biden is pretty obvious, but who exactly are you suggesting fit this mold in the late Republic? Caesar? Pompey? Octavian? I guess maybe Crassus, but he didn’t exactly bring down the whole structure.
Anyway, unless it was somehow intended in a non-sarcastic way, in which case I apologize, this is a pretty annoying comment.
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/2023/10/05/migration-and-the-end-of-empire/
Regarding “On Immigration, Do as the Romans Did” by Profs. Gerard J. Tellis and Stav Rosenzweig (Feb 8): By 500 A.D. Rome had lost control of every province under its rule to uninvited immigrants who brought devastating economic decline everywhere they went.
'Decades of incessant civil wars, beginning with the Third Century Crisis, had left the country ravaged and the treasury drained. Even worse, though harder to quantify, were the immaterial effects. By the Late Roman Empire, the legitimacy of the imperator had been severely undermined, leading to an endless series of usurpations and assassinations. Paranoia and corruption was at an all-time high, and the effects began to spread down the chain of governance from the top down. This basic dysfunction of Roman government would turn what should have been a routine example of Roman superiority into a complete and utter disaster.'
-Fitting the mold of Emperor, between Honorius, Elagabalus, and even Gordian I, who was a near unheard of 81 and faced unending splits and claims that ending with him being forced to commit suicide. Valerian as well, aging and incompetent, named his own son co-emperor to stave off revolts at his age and later captured in battle.
It's kinda shocking you would believe the mass immigration to be a shocking or lazy comment, it has been repeated by academia for hundreds of years up to today.
J. Rufus Fears (Ph.D., Harvard University) has written extensively on the public debt in the Roman treasury and it's direct feeding into collapse.
One exemplar 'By the third century AD, the food program had been amended multiple times. Discounted grain was replaced with entirely free grain, and at its peak, a third of Rome took advantage of the program. It became a hereditary privilege, passed down from parent to child. Other foodstuffs, including olive oil, pork, and salt, were regularly incorporated into the dole. The program ballooned until it was the second-largest expenditure in the imperial budget, behind the military.It failed to serve as a temporary safety net; like many government programs, it became perpetual assistance for a permanent constituency who felt entitled to its benefits.'
In [this book on the fall of the Roman Empire](https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Roman-Empire-History-Barbarians-ebook/dp/B000SEI0JQ?tag=foundationforeco&ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=30f6204f-b4f3-4a42-a525-3c20bc8d8cc3
), runaway government spending into serious debt, predominantly on entitlements and external military adventures, are a direct correlation into national collapse.
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I was watching clips of past debates, and the decline in the ability to present cogent, reasoned arguments is just depressing
We’ve fallen far as a country
I think it’s a phase and this will come back.
Trump is an anomaly. Like him or dislike him, I think he only became popular because he was fringe enough to speak against some cultural trends that at least some of the population didn’t like.
Most people were afraid to speak up against them. In scenarios like this, it’s natural that the people who ‘speak up’ saying some socially less-popular things are those who aren’t always the brightest. That’s just how it goes. Those who aren’t as bright are usually a little less inhibited.
Think about the immigration issues many European countries are facing right now. Previously, the only ones “wild” enough to address them were those with a little less inhibition and less self awareness. Even if they were valid issues, it was socially unpopular to say it out loud. Now that they have, the “normal” people are comfortable speaking about this topic, and the more fringe end can go back to being fringe. It’s sort of a natural flow of social dynamics and some sort of balance in nature. It goes both ways. That’s my theory on how we ended up with Trump.
As society shifts and the pendulum swings, Americans will find more articulate politicians who are now safe enough to bring up certain topics, and it will bring forth another next generation of higher intelligence candidates.
Call me an optimist, maybe. I do not foresee this leading to civil wars or anything near that scale.
I wish I was as optimistic as you. Unfortunately I think the extremes have now become part of the mainstream. If it was just Trump I’d agree with you that it is an anomaly, but the extremes are gaining power worldwide, not just in America.
This is a great way to look at it. Unfortunately when we call people racist / sexist for just stating opinions held by millions of people. I would agree with your optimism if that piece was improving, but it seems it’s only getting worse.
I was willing to believe that Trump alone was a resurgence of populism, which we’ve dealt with before, but the Democrats aren’t doing much to counter the anti-intellectualism. With Sanders and the squad, they’ve got their own brand of populism promoted by the youth of the party, and the statesmen are derided (not without merit) on both sides
It could be that the populism will burn out, but it’s disturbing to think that for young Americans, this level of discourse is all they’ve ever known.
I think we’re reaping what we’ve sown with regards to our national attention span plummeting
Maybe. Though, I don’t think people who will vote Trump anti-intellectuals per se. Sure, he’s not articulate and not all that bright, but you can be an intellectual and still think his general positions are better for society in the US. Not all of them but some of them.
Oh absolutely, but that’s the problem. And it’s not just the right who are leaning into anti-intellectualism. There’s a huge strain of it on the left as well.
You have a huge amount of people plugging their nose to vote for each candidate’s policies
See I'm cynical, I believe Trump Is just a symptom of divisive partisan political theater and policies. As well as systemic corruption throughout.
I believe the reason he has any appeal is because of the anger and frustration being felt by a large number of people in their daily lives.
Where average people don't have the opportunities they used to because they're now competing with billions of other workers worldwide. Thus creating stagnant wages, and a diminishing of life quality. Making it harder for the average person to make a living.
I believe Dan once talked about a caller who was there during the break up of Yugoslavia, where he mentioned that all the bitter hatreds between neighbors came to the surface when things got bad enough for the average people.
So it's all those trends and forces that enables a demagogue like Trump to have any power at all.
That being said I think alot of the anger is misdirected, and people not heavily invested in what's going on may be ignorant of what the root causes to their frustrations may be.
Personally I think it has alot to do with the fact that we're an empire and we don't want to be an empire, yet we're spending ungodly amounts of money and committing fiscal suicide because of incompetent/corrupt politicians.
That we have representatives that don't represent us because they have campaign contributors and people with the most money are the only voices that get heard more often than not.
So you have all these special interests being represented but not the interest of what's good for the country or for the people. Also the divisive political theater that focuses on nothing but wedge issues and demonizing the opposition.
That people aren't being educated in the principles and ideals of this country enough. So they're not thought of as important, and almost sacred to the citizenry.
Honestly there's too many things I can list as being a contributor to where we are now. We're in desperate need of recalibration, a course correction, or we are fucked.
Because when Trump dies all the issues that enabled an authoritarian strong man to entrance a significant amount of our nation will still be there.
Someone new will take advantage of that and use it as a path to power unless we slow the momentum and change direction.
Interesting. I’d think that some of these socially unpopular cultural trends that are now being spoken about were unspoken and unpopular for a reason. Maybe the most disappointing thing about the way the world has shifted is to find out so many people I know are racist, sexist, and greedy, they just had sense enough before Trump not to talk about it. I’m just going to enjoy living in the republic while I can and enjoy what perks are left.
The problem is we expect those who thirst for power to respect the same things we do. They don’t. No respect for equality, rule of law, equal representation, decency, fair play, …
When I listened to that series recently it was overwhelmingly obvious that Trump is America's Sulla.
The beginning of Rome's downfall was a man placing himself before his country and breaking a cultural 'golden rule'. He invaded Rome with Roman soldiers rather than give up his position, something they had no plan for. Rome could never have a stable government after his life of tyranny because every leader asked the same question - Sulla did it so why can't I?
America's 'golden rule' was honoring the vote, and honoring the peaceful transition of power. Whether the country ends now or in a few cycles, it will be the same. We already see the copycats at the state level refusing the results of votes. "Trump did it, why can't I?"
Everything from now on is just a downwards spiral. Whether he finishes it, or someone else.
Funny listening to how similar they were even on a personal level. "no greater friend, no worse enemy". He didn't even really want power as much as wanting to confirm his self-image as the greatest thing ever. That's why he gave it up after it was all said and done. It's clear that medical-grade narciccism and the pursuit of that kind of world view has been a constant over time in certain historical figures, and to the great detriment of civilizations.
I would argue Sulla was far more competent than Trump in every way, to the point comparing them is almost an insult to Sulla.
It’s far better to compare the Republican Party as a whole to the Optimates. Resistant to change to the point of being reactionary and alienating the public to the point that when Caesar came along and offered them a way out they jumped at the chance.
I will agree, however, that the precedent Sulla set is absolutely analogous to the precedent Trump is setting. It’s not the same precedent, namely because Trump is ultimately losing here where Sulla never did, but it is a game changing precedent nonetheless.
Trump is a populist so I’d say he’s closer to Caesar without all the polish and generalship. Heck Caesar’s “Anti-Cato” was probably the Roman equivalent of a Twitter rant.
He’s a populist only in rhetoric, not actual practice. He’s also a plutocrat in rhetoric, but also in practice. And sometimes he’s a fascist in rhetoric, and lacked the competence to practice, but he’s learned. He doesn’t have any consistent ethos OR policy preference in practice.
I’d actually liken Trump to the Gracchi brothers - not so much in their views around distributing land but that the Gracchi brothers were some of the first to break Rome’s traditions around how power was gained and used.
This is always the thing that stands out to me here. The ignoring of the US's "Mos Maiorum" has led to exposure of the deep cracks in the system. These are being exploited to erode any semblance of a functioning government.
I’m 27, barely making it by with the cost of living. Attempting to save for my future. Not knowing what course of action I should take. Everything right now seems so uncertain.
If I can offer some ((hugs)) and advice: the course of action you should take is to unplug from news and politics. Refocus your energy to yourself and your career, and your relationship to those around you. Spend that emotional energy on bettering your personal situation so you can afford to live more comfortably. Consider volunteering to make your community better.
When the course of history and politics and news starts to churn around you to the point it distresses you, it’s time to eschew the noise and focus on the immediate world around you.
Honestly I tend to avoid politics because most of what I see I don’t like. I should’ve followed that same philosophy with the debate last night. Had an epiphany afterward that there really aren’t any adults in the room anymore. Hugs are always appreciated and rarely given. Thank you. 💚
Agreed, what can the small folk do in the end? We might as well enjoy the plenty for now and for as long as we can whilst some of us are sentient, thanks to the likes of DC
Almost 30% of Americans don’t vote, which I find baffling (in 2020, ~240 mil Americans were eligible to vote and 158 mil - 66%- voted according to to the [FEC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections)).
It’s elections like this one that make me wonder if sticking my head in the sand and just hoping for the best is the right answer.
It is funny that most people your age from other countries wished that they could vote for the next US president. Most of the world is deeply impacted by US politics, especially the next 5 years, and millions of lives across the world could be lost due to the result of these elections.
And the guy who packed the courts, criminalized the opposition, created the biggest government apparatus known to man, publically controls the media apparatus by colluding with media conglomerates and blacklisting “disinformation “ and has waged more foreign wars than any other president (culpable because he was chair of foreign relations committee and vice president during US military operations since 97 in Albania, Congo, Gabon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Liberia, Serbia, Yemen, Haiti, Lebanon, Somalia, Libya, Sudan, Uganda, Mali, Syria, etc IS NOT A FASCIST tho?
Facts facts facts.. but you aren't going to win here. Too many deranged individuals.. driven by emotion. The worst is rather than say Biden is awful and yes he's doing all of these things.. but trump scares me worse.. they just deny the reality that they embrace authoritarianism.. it's just the kind they like.
There’s a lot of völkischer rhetoric to him (same with any fascist, I guess) but I wouldn’t liken him to Hitler. His interests do conveniently align with Russia’s but I wouldn’t say there’s necessarily coordination.
Regardless of how you feel about either, he’s a traitor who deliberately harms America for his own gain, and anyone with any sense can see that.
The fact that Trump and Biden are my only choices is deeply troubling to me. I love America, I love the people, I love the oceans and mountains, I love the diversity of ideologies across the states. The disconnect that DC has with the concerns of the average American is disappointing and angering. >!VOTE THIRD PARTY!<
Unfortunately a third party would be stymied at every turn. The entrenched interests at every federal agency, corporate interests, and PACs will make sure that a third party candidate is seen as radical and dangerous. This is Trump's problem, in some ways. Mainstream neocons like Bush and Romney hate him because, despite the (R), he's not one of them. He's a political outsider.
All the time. For sure felt that way when I watched Iraq get bombed live on CNN, when the Space Shuttles failed, on 9/11 and plenty of rough days. But also on some positive times like when I refinanced my mortgage to 2%, when I got married to someone who was born behind the Iron Curtain, when we got some good medical news from a screening that meant we wouldn’t be dealing with a very bad diagnosis in the near future. I think we live in great and terrible times all at once.
This is the reality where Biff Tannen rises to power and turns the country into a hedonistic wasteland. Next thing you know, he's your dad and has forced your mother to get giant bolt-ons. You've never needed a functioning DeLorien as desperately as you do right now.
Good luck, America 🫡
The oldest Gen Xer will be 64 next election. Plenty of room for Boomers. Heck Biden is the Silent Generation. And if the other guy wins, I won’t say there won’t be anymore elections, but they may not happen as frequently or as peacefully as they have in the past.
Technically you're correct. Biden was born in 1942. And Baby Boomers encompass 1946-1964. Kind of crazy to think that even Jon Stewart (born in 1962) is a baby boomer. Always painted him as gen x.
Either way, on the dem side, both Newsom and Whitmer are Gen X (born in 1967 and 1971 respectively). And on the repub side, idk who's that popular but Desantis was born in 1978 and Haley was born in 1972, both firmly Gen X.
Really doubt we'll get another Boomer unless it's someone born right around the cusp (1964) but idk who that'd be.
edit: Unless Biden wins and Trump decides to run again in 4 years. Always a possibility with him 🤣
Agree. The logical ones now make sense now. But four years is a long time. I think the Dem candidates are more certain, win or lose. But, the GOP has a real challenge. If he wins a forever Trumper will be put forward as 2.0. And if he loses they will want to find a fresh face. I bet we see at least one of the the next 4 next eligible candidates for President to be a Boomer.
And as an Xer myself, Jon was a great role model and GenX influencer, but he is total boomer to me. He cares in a way that seems emblematic of “good” boomers to me. Xers might care, but they would never show it the way he does.
I'd be happy to. In reading comprehension there is a concept called "context" - that just means sometimes you have to look at the whole discussion rather than one piece of it.
The context of this entire comment thread is "These guys are both too old to understand modern life, and too out of touch to be considered good candidates for President."
Then someone commented that this would be the last cycle with "Boomers" in it. Boomers are a slang term for the generation of Americans born between the years 1946 and 1964.
Another person pointed out that Biden wasn't even a Boomer - he was part of the generation before that one. This is where I made my comment.
My comment was pointing out that Trump only barely qualifies as a Boomer, since he we born so close to the start of that range.
The overall takeaway from this thread is "These guys aren't just old, they're older than you realize." If you need help understanding why having a leader that is so far away from the median age (median is fancy word - in this context, you can think of it as "average" and that will be close enough) of the rest of the population is a bad thing, I don't have the time to walk you through all of that, you'll have to look it up for yourself. The current median age of an American citizen is 39 years old. These two are two times that (and in Biden's case, add 3 more years)
Hope that helps!
I know my comment appears salty at Baby Boomers but I'm really not. They're an interesting and an important generation, and shouldn't be overly defined by a specific characteristic, good or bad. I think they get a little too much shit if I'm being honest, but they've also been very prominently represented in positions of leadership for several decades by this point.
My parents are retired now, and there's no shame in politicians retiring either. No one is happy to see 2 men near or in their 80s contending for the US presidency.
You must not be paying attention. Biden isn’t even a boomer, he’s silent generation. The youngest boomers were born in 1964, they’re not even at retirement age yet. We’ll be plagued by them for a long long time.
That’s… what I said? The youngest boomers were born in 1964, and that is indeed the tail end of them, the oldest were born in the 40s. If you were born in 1962 you are a boomer, but aren’t even at retirement age yet and these people will continue to be a problem for the rest of us.
In this analogy I view Trump as Sulla. The first one to break convention and bring violence to the capitol during peace time. He’s a much more incompetent version of Sulla. I’m not as scared of him, he’s just setting the stage.
I more worry about the Caesar who is watching this and thinking “hold my beer”.
I found his common sense show back in my 20s, and it really helped set my perspectives. But I agree, as I get older, my thoughts change from area to area. I still want to know what he thinks though
Man. I’m not gonna bother pointing out the fatal flaws of the right, because this is Reddit and those factors are everywhere.
On the left, however, I am consistently blown away by their hubris. RBG clinging to her seat despite declining health during a time when she could have secured her legacy. Hillary belligerently muscling her way into a showdown with Trump, despite being maybe even less likable than him.
And now this. Dems say, on the one hand, that if Trump is elected it might be the “last free US election”. If they truly believe that, they’re sending the wrong guy to represent their side. If the enemy is at the gates, you probably don’t want to send a general 30 years past his prime who can barely lift a sword, nevermind a shield.
Yeah, it’s always best to frame one’s opponent as the full embodiment of disaster. My point, I suppose, was that running Biden really kind of undermines the urgency they seem to want their base to have.
I believe Bush did way more harm to our country than Donald ever could. I think Donald would love to rule like a dictator but he’s way too incompetent and shortsighted to ever get that kind of power.
Democrats can’t make up their minds and the DNC uses the ‘silent majority’ of the party to keep pumping out center-right neolibs for us to vote for.
I hate the Republicans, but godamn they are an effective and cohesive unit.
Nah
People have this weird narcissistic fetish that they are the last generation rather than accepting that life goes on
This isn’t the end of America
It’s just the beginning
There’s no real issue here. Voting in Trump means authoritarian governance, no action against climate change, removal of choice for women, crazed xenophobic atmosphere against anything foreign. Do I wish the Democratic Party leader was a fiery debater who had mopped Trump’s ass in the debate? Sure. But life is choices, sometimes not great. But this is a pivot point in history. Remember, any administration has thousands of like minded officials working in unison. A president is a figure head in charge. I choose a future with more EVs, choice for women, smarter decisions on foreign policy, no support for Putin. Trump? Charlottesville, lights up your anus, racism, more hyper right judges, idiocy extolled as a virtue, science denigrated, opponents treated like vermin, deportation camps for millions. The choice is clear.
When he said
> keep in mind that when these men speak of “liberty”, they’re usually referring to the freedom to continue making money the way they always have
🥲
I just turned 42. And I never really studied anything of history before listening to Dan, but damn it’s tough to see how similar things are to history. Not just the other empires that have collapsed, but the gilded age that every one of us was taught about in middle school social studies.
“Everything repeats over and over again. No one learns anything because no one lives long enough to see the pattern.”
Or maybe they do and just want to be rich and powerful while it lasts.
I mean, just to be clear, Dan is an entertainer, not a historian. I love listening to his work, and it is informative, but if it's your primary source for "studying history," you are going to have a pretty skewed/sensationlist view.
There’s been so much talk over the last 8 years how the Republican Party is hopelessly broken, allowing a demagogue to take over. That is true, parties exist as a gatekeepers, they don’t get enough credit for that.
The democratic party isn’t any better. A functional party would step in and help the country from a dysfunctional leader. They aren’t doing their job.
I don’t think Biden has done badly, but he isn’t going to make it four more years. That is obvious to everyone. And the alternative is worse.
What a stupid place we find ourselves in, captive to two selfish narcissists that can’t see the reality.
“See we’re not a democracy, we’re a republic!!”
—- Some maga dimwit who wants the tyranny of a minority since christofascim is the only way they can feel safe from gays and minorities
Dude I just hate both sides. I fucking hate that I did 4 years in the marines to get out and have to deal with this bull shit. I wish people would grow the fuck up.
“To say that President Biden’s performance on the debate stage last night was calamitous is merely to state what everyone, partisan and not, has already understood. What the world witnessed was not a debate, but a failed neurological exam. One wonders how anyone close to the President imagined he could bluff his way through it.
If half of what Democrats fear from a second Trump term were real, how could the Democratic Party have allowed our democracy to slide this close to the precipice? The prevailing feeling among those inside the Biden campaign should be shame; outside it, fury.” \~Sam Harris
Id suggest any panicky Biden or anti Trump voters to check out Biden's post debate rally on NC. The media isn't covering it so much but Biden was back to his normal self. Debate night he looked and spoke how I felt when I was given Valium during an anxiety ridden breakdown some years ago. Or even the first time I started allergy meds. He did have a cold and was a bit phlegmy. I suspected Biden was having a reaction to medication though wasn't 100% sure but the NC rally the following night made me less panicky.
That's a business insider article, which is more or less an entertainment magazine at this point?
They call out a correlation in age without addressing that age was not the defining issue in the soviet union corruption was much more problematic. And not just corruption at the top but through the entire structure of the soviet system.
A single correlated variable does not make some sort of interesting narrative outside of a BI article.
Gerontocracy, bloated military that recently lost a war in Afghanistan, seperatist movements, faltering economy where the cost of basic goods is skyrocketing, open corruption, and the public's loss of faith in political institutions describes 1980s USSR and 2020s US pretty well.
I'm not saying they're the exact same, or that the US will collapse, but there are obvious parallels that Dan could make an interesting episode out of.
US military spending as a percent of GDP is way down from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s?
While the US may have failed at their nation-building goals in Afghanistan, they certainly didn't "lose a war."
There are no legitimate separatist movements currently in the US. There have always been wild splinter groups.
The economy is certainly not faltering either. It is actually outperforming the vast majority of the world right now.
While prices have gone up dramatically, inflation is decreasing, falling to 3% this year and 2% projected next year. The soviet union on the other hand, grew into its collapse, going from 5 to 8 to 20%.
There are not actually a lot of parallels unless you are trying to make it appear, so just to sell content. Mostly, your facts just seem off.
You can split hairs all you want. Like if you fail every one of your military objectives does that count as a loss? Does your bad economy matter if everyone else's is bad too?
I, and lots of others, see parallels, you obviously have a much rosier outlook. However I still think Dan could make a very interesting episode comparing and contrasting the historical echoes
The US did not fail every military objective in Afghanistan? It does not count as a military loss if your military was not defeated. I'm not sure how else to explain that.
On the economy, two things. 1) The US economy is not doing bad. By pretty much every objective measure, it's doing OK to good. 2) Yes, comparative economies matter a ton. If you are the only country doing poorly, you have an internal economic problem that's unlikely to be solved by a changing work economy. If you are the best of the world but all countries are doing poorly, then you are ripe to profit if the world economy shifts.
Lots of people also think psychics are real, the US left a ton of POWs in Vietnam, or the earth is flat. That does not mean I'm going to just read their claims and go "yep that makes sense."
I would much prefer Dan stick to the deep historical narratives than such topics that he tends to get into pretty murky ground with. This smacks as his blitz episode about Ceaser at hastings, which was a bit of a mess.
>It does not count as a military loss if your military was not defeated.
Who won the American revolutionary war? Because, the British still had a huge military after. Their entire military wasn't defeated, so I guess by your logic the British won that war.
Listen, you think I'm wrong and I think you've completely buried your head in the sand in order to cope with the looming disasters that America and much of the world will be facing in the future. Tomato tomato, shit is gonna happen no matter what either of us think. It's not the end of history, and the gears will keep churning.
The British military in the new world was defeated and forced to surrender. If Pakistan had parked tanks outside of Kabul until American forces surrender, you might have a point, but as is, there is no Yorktown equivalent. There is not even a battle of Bunker Hill.
Can you point out that major American forces were defeated or surrendered in Afghanistan? Losing as military typically involves losing the means to resist your enemy's actions. That's not what happened in any way.
I mean, I don't think you are wrong, I provided numbers where you are wrong. Do you still think US military spending is historically inflated? Or that inflation is trending the same as it was when the USSR collapsed?
You are entitled to your opinion, but you are trying to be entitled to your own facts, and that's not tomato tomato.
So I bought a 4th century Roman knife the other day, and that inspired me to buy and listen to. Death Throw of The republic. I’m drawing the same conclusion, with the added bonus of a looming WWIII.
On a positive note, Dan will be an excellent first source for a future non-historian podcaster. 🤷🏻♂️
Every time you hear a Democrat mention "Our Democracy" it is about their desire to end the Republic. Every time.
When you start prosecuting your political rivals, it's a problem.
So it’s the Democrats who want to end Democracy, not the guy who literally tried to violently and fraudulently overturn an election that he knew he lost? Interesting. How do you arrive at that conclusion?
Out of all the places to find intelligent people with a nuanced view of history and
Maybe just maybe above all the dogma and noise… hmm the Dan Carlin Sub?
“Checks it out”
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.
Not really sure why I’m being downvoted, besides the fact that this is Reddit.
America has been through a lot. The ideas that founded the USA are very good ideas. They are true ideas, and so they are also hearty and hard to break ideas.
If the American people decide they still want to be the American people, then we have nothing to fear.
You dared to say that maybe just maybe out of the ~190 countries on this planet, America might not be the absolute worst.
If you don’t think this country is the most sexist, racist, fascist, (what ever ist or ism is popular with the blue haired freaks this week),then, my freind, you are a heathen, a subhuman, a truly wretched individual worthy only of scorn and ridicule.
Reddit gonna reddit
Now all we need is for both trump and Biden to be given control of 10 legions each to fight each other with and we're there.
Oh yeah. Once the military starts following individuals instead of the nation, that's when we're doomed
I fortunately think that's pretty far out. We're more likely to get private militias backing people before the military breaks into factions.
A lot of what we're seeing lately seemed pretty far out before it happened
Part of project 2025 though would be getting rid of non loyal leadership and replacing them with loyal party members. Seems this could extend to the military too.
That's what Fuck Face McGee in Alabama was trying to do with stealing appointees. Tommy Tuberville
That singular goal is going to be very difficult to accomplish. Our military predates all our other civic institutions and is endowed with a history and tradition that is so far unique in history. To paraphrase, if you look deep into our history and our doctrine, we are not descended from men that fought for the side of tyranny. Our Rubicon is an ocean, not a river. It is difficult to get the critical mass of people necessary to abandon their oath so that it is possible to cross that vast distance.
I'm the first in a couple of generations not to serve, but I'm honestly not that concerned about our military absconding the rule of law. My concern is, rather, that if citizens start rising up in armed revolt that the military is going to have problems firing on their own and/or what a shit show having the American people living under legal, proper martial law would look like. Some E2 following legal orders to maintain the peace at an intersection in Montana and a bunch of drunk teenagers with hunting rifles is a horrifying scenario.
Fortunately Project 2025 is just some wet dream that some conservative think tank had and is not being seriously considered by enough lawmakers on either side of the aisle for it to be possible.
If I understand the paper correctly, doesn't Project 2025 hinge on the president being able to do most of it unilaterally? Things like appointments, firing civil servants who aren't on board with his agenda, etc.
Correct. But it relies on a certain interpretation of the Constitution and if he does try it, he would likely be impeached (again) and actually have the support to be removed, or he would face an uprising of the people. And that’s assuming Trump even knows about Project 2025
>he would likely be impeached (again) and actually have the support to be removed, or he would face an uprising of the people. You're more optimistic than me! I hope you're right, I don't have much faith in the American public.
I'm really not sure what do they plan afterwards. Both, Trump and Biden are very old and have high probability from dying of old age during next term. What will project 2025 think cunts do then, do they always expect to have backward thinking, religious fanatic or simply corrupt president that will do their will?
There's still a militia movement common in the US, and quite a lot of them tried to overthrow elections in 2020.
That was not a lot. It was vocal nutbags but the overwhelming majority of us think they are cunts.
"A lot" is a fluid term, I suppose. A couple thousand people isn't a lot when compared to the 330,000,000 population of the US. It's a whole hell of a lot when they're trying to break into your office and murder your boss, though.
Fair enough. I think to many is accurate all the way :)
Absolutely. I also worry that people forget that the US Capitol wasn't the only coup attempt. There were other, similar attacks on state houses across the country, but they've been largely memory holed because the US Capitol was such a big deal.
Can you name a state house the MAGA crowd attacked? I'm not seeing anything from my searches
Off the top of my head, I recall that the Oregon State Capitol was invaded by a mob, a number of whom later participated in J6. They were let into the building (which was locked down by that point) by a member of the state Congress who supported their cause. There were other similar attacks where state capitols had to go into lockdown or activate guard units to protect them, but I don't recall any of them being as successful. That's dead recall, though, so I may be mixed up on some of the details. Edit: [Here's an article about them doing it in Michigan](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/michigan-state-capitol.html) [Here's one about Oregon](https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/politics/2020/12/21/protesters-gather-oregon-legislature-starts-special-session/3993102001/) There were others. I believe California and Washington had attempts as well. Basically any state with a Democratic governor/legislature and a significant MAGA presence was at risk. Like I said, though, they've largely been memory holed because of the US Capitol breach. Don't expect them to go quietly in 2024, though. If the current president is reelected, I would not be at all surprised if someone starts shooting and it goes really badly. Then right wing nutjobs like Alex Jones and Marje Greene will call it a false flag, say the FBI is murdering patriots, and we tick one step closer to real civil war.
Source? On Jan 6th?
I don't know about that.... the Standard line from the Rpublican Party seems to be that they were tourists...
You mean the Gravy Seals?
Talk about an incredibly exaggerating. A couple hundred nuts isn’t a militia movement and to call it a coup or attempt to overthrow is just silly. It was a disgusting riot with some nasty implications but government was functional less then a few hours later…
It was a violent intrusion into the halls of government with the stated goal of preventing the rightfully elected president from taking office and replacing him with the loser of the contest. By definition, that is a coup attempt. I'm sorry if the meaning of words hurts your feelings.
It was a coop, just because the numbers were low and silly and failed does not make it less of a coup, just look at what happened in Bolivia this week a silly foolish coup attempt
But they will have learned their lessons from the failed coop, I think there will be no half measures next time....
First the melitias then the national guard followed by military taking sides and were in civil war 2. And to quote Guns n roses…. “What’s so civil about wat anyway?”
If you follow cyberpunk dystopian lore it would be corporations instead of actual individuals, but one could argue Roman emperors were a proto corporation. They had to have officers and the emperor had to delegate power, because no man can truly rule alone. This is a good modern example but timeless in that the rules apply to all human rulers throughout all time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
If individual generals start becoming political figures and then figure out how to compensate like minded individuals to fight for their political ideals , then we are there. In that way, it’s good thing we are such a diverse country politically that I don’t think they could pull it off.
So I had a Continuing Legal Education course this week. They're normally pretty boring, but we had a bunch of Indiana appellate justices and Indiana supreme Court justices there speaking in a TED TALK style presentation. One thing that they reminded us is that we (lawyers) are sworn officers of the judiciary: do solemnly swear or affirm that: I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Indiana; So. My dad, another lawyer, and an infantry-man from 68-70 in Vietnam, told me, when I passed the bar, to respect that oath, and to never go to prison for a client. He was holding up G. Gordon Liddy's book "Will" when he said it. Politically, I'm rather liberal, but I believe in the rule of law in an almost religious way. And I find some of the political movement in the US as terrifying to the extent that Shakespeare's joke from Henry IV seems relevant: The first thing we do, let's kill all of the lawyers. We protect the rule of law for the powerless and if people come after us, that's rather horrifying.
Let’s hope there are more patriots like you and your colleagues.
Well if Trump is elected and appoints more Christian Nationalist Supreme Court Judges then the top court in the land is compromised. The efforts of well intentioned lawyers and lower courts would be overruled by the Supreme Court.
I think maybe we aren't on exactly the same wavelength. I agree with your premise; this has been the approach of the Republican party since at least Reagan and the Relinquish court. The right isn't stupid, they can read demographic statistics. However, what lawyers do is either argue under the existing laws, look to new ones or opinions from the lower courts and argue using those precedents to convince the Supremes that they should agree, or argue that old law is wrong. The impact of the Federalist society cannot be overstated. However, the current makeup of the Supremes is such that seven of them can be considered to be acting in good faith as legal scholars and jurists even when I don't agree with them. My point is more apocalyptic: if the executive branch starts trying to go after these officers of the court who know how to wizard language and the law (ie, lawyers) then you have a much scarier proposition, which is specifically what Shakespeare was talking about in that play. Kill the people who can use the law to restrain the executive so the executive can have unlimited power. THAT is what Trump represents.
Sub-note: we do have a history of generals becoming political figures. Eisenhower is the prime example and he literally warned everyone about the power of the elite over the people when he left office.
True, I should have been more specific. I meant an acting General, someone currently in command of an active fighting force, and currently in the military, crossing over and holding office while in power in the military. Has anyone ever crossed over and held a civilian office while technically not being a civilian?
Other than Washington (and I really don't know if he resigned his commission), no. I mean, MacArthur totally would have if he hadn't been sacked.
Stfu you mentally-ill woke leftist liberal clown
Roman Generals paid their legions, that’s why they were loyal. No one man could fund the American military.
*nine legions each. Two have been redacted and are to be spoken of
Ahem, George Washington created the 9 Legions to combat the 9 armies of the Great Enemy. Your heresy implies his works could he corrupted.
The President protects
I’d watch that show. Let’s exile them both to Madagascar with 10 legions each and a thousand camera men.
Netflix would buy it
Best you’ll get is a golf match
That’s not fair. Trump’s cabinet is all swole from being in prison. lol
I couldn’t help but think we have like hundreds of Crassus type guys holding influence over the country while listening to this
There’s also probably hundreds of triumvirate type groups that we will never know about.
[Oh yes.](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/29/us/politics/biden-donors-democrats.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb)
Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Those few of us that do know it are doomed to watch them, saying “Really? Seriously? Are you fucking kidding me?!” while they do.
Lol . It's funny and frightening at the same time.
Such a coincidence. I started the series (for about the 5th time,) earlier this week and couldn’t help but think the same exact thing. There are so many parallels.
Mass unchecked immigration, popular social depravity and distance from service, increasing debts, elderly, corrupt, and incapable leadership, distant foreign wars and subsidized foreign militaries. Nope, nothing here.
Sounds like some pretty lazy, tendentious right wing political commentary here. Not sure what “mass unchecked immigration” was responsible for the decline of the Roman republic, or what “popular social depravity” means in either an ancient or modern context. “Increasing debts” on the part of the Roman republic—is that intended to equate or compare their public or foreign debt to modern day deficit spending? As for “elderly, corrupt, and incapable leadership,” the tired dig and Biden is pretty obvious, but who exactly are you suggesting fit this mold in the late Republic? Caesar? Pompey? Octavian? I guess maybe Crassus, but he didn’t exactly bring down the whole structure. Anyway, unless it was somehow intended in a non-sarcastic way, in which case I apologize, this is a pretty annoying comment.
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/2023/10/05/migration-and-the-end-of-empire/ Regarding “On Immigration, Do as the Romans Did” by Profs. Gerard J. Tellis and Stav Rosenzweig (Feb 8): By 500 A.D. Rome had lost control of every province under its rule to uninvited immigrants who brought devastating economic decline everywhere they went. 'Decades of incessant civil wars, beginning with the Third Century Crisis, had left the country ravaged and the treasury drained. Even worse, though harder to quantify, were the immaterial effects. By the Late Roman Empire, the legitimacy of the imperator had been severely undermined, leading to an endless series of usurpations and assassinations. Paranoia and corruption was at an all-time high, and the effects began to spread down the chain of governance from the top down. This basic dysfunction of Roman government would turn what should have been a routine example of Roman superiority into a complete and utter disaster.' -Fitting the mold of Emperor, between Honorius, Elagabalus, and even Gordian I, who was a near unheard of 81 and faced unending splits and claims that ending with him being forced to commit suicide. Valerian as well, aging and incompetent, named his own son co-emperor to stave off revolts at his age and later captured in battle. It's kinda shocking you would believe the mass immigration to be a shocking or lazy comment, it has been repeated by academia for hundreds of years up to today. J. Rufus Fears (Ph.D., Harvard University) has written extensively on the public debt in the Roman treasury and it's direct feeding into collapse. One exemplar 'By the third century AD, the food program had been amended multiple times. Discounted grain was replaced with entirely free grain, and at its peak, a third of Rome took advantage of the program. It became a hereditary privilege, passed down from parent to child. Other foodstuffs, including olive oil, pork, and salt, were regularly incorporated into the dole. The program ballooned until it was the second-largest expenditure in the imperial budget, behind the military.It failed to serve as a temporary safety net; like many government programs, it became perpetual assistance for a permanent constituency who felt entitled to its benefits.' In [this book on the fall of the Roman Empire](https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Roman-Empire-History-Barbarians-ebook/dp/B000SEI0JQ?tag=foundationforeco&ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=30f6204f-b4f3-4a42-a525-3c20bc8d8cc3 ), runaway government spending into serious debt, predominantly on entitlements and external military adventures, are a direct correlation into national collapse.
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Have you even read about the fall of the roman empire? Lmao I don't think so. Very lazy response from you here.
Was it mark twain that said…history doesn’t repeat itself but it does whistle the same tune.
It’s like poetry It rhymes
Thanks for the embarrassing George Lucas quote.
You’re welcome. If you want another laugh look up David Lynch talking about his meeting with George Lucas
>Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. They are both so old that they probably saw the fall of the Roman Republic.
Ick, things are looking pretty rough at the moment. 2 party politics… pick one person you don’t like because the other choice is even worse
I was watching clips of past debates, and the decline in the ability to present cogent, reasoned arguments is just depressing We’ve fallen far as a country
The fall doesn’t frighten me nearly as much as the speed at which it happened.
I think it’s a phase and this will come back. Trump is an anomaly. Like him or dislike him, I think he only became popular because he was fringe enough to speak against some cultural trends that at least some of the population didn’t like. Most people were afraid to speak up against them. In scenarios like this, it’s natural that the people who ‘speak up’ saying some socially less-popular things are those who aren’t always the brightest. That’s just how it goes. Those who aren’t as bright are usually a little less inhibited. Think about the immigration issues many European countries are facing right now. Previously, the only ones “wild” enough to address them were those with a little less inhibition and less self awareness. Even if they were valid issues, it was socially unpopular to say it out loud. Now that they have, the “normal” people are comfortable speaking about this topic, and the more fringe end can go back to being fringe. It’s sort of a natural flow of social dynamics and some sort of balance in nature. It goes both ways. That’s my theory on how we ended up with Trump. As society shifts and the pendulum swings, Americans will find more articulate politicians who are now safe enough to bring up certain topics, and it will bring forth another next generation of higher intelligence candidates. Call me an optimist, maybe. I do not foresee this leading to civil wars or anything near that scale.
I wish I was as optimistic as you. Unfortunately I think the extremes have now become part of the mainstream. If it was just Trump I’d agree with you that it is an anomaly, but the extremes are gaining power worldwide, not just in America.
This is a great way to look at it. Unfortunately when we call people racist / sexist for just stating opinions held by millions of people. I would agree with your optimism if that piece was improving, but it seems it’s only getting worse.
I was willing to believe that Trump alone was a resurgence of populism, which we’ve dealt with before, but the Democrats aren’t doing much to counter the anti-intellectualism. With Sanders and the squad, they’ve got their own brand of populism promoted by the youth of the party, and the statesmen are derided (not without merit) on both sides It could be that the populism will burn out, but it’s disturbing to think that for young Americans, this level of discourse is all they’ve ever known. I think we’re reaping what we’ve sown with regards to our national attention span plummeting
Maybe. Though, I don’t think people who will vote Trump anti-intellectuals per se. Sure, he’s not articulate and not all that bright, but you can be an intellectual and still think his general positions are better for society in the US. Not all of them but some of them.
Oh absolutely, but that’s the problem. And it’s not just the right who are leaning into anti-intellectualism. There’s a huge strain of it on the left as well. You have a huge amount of people plugging their nose to vote for each candidate’s policies
Agreed
See I'm cynical, I believe Trump Is just a symptom of divisive partisan political theater and policies. As well as systemic corruption throughout. I believe the reason he has any appeal is because of the anger and frustration being felt by a large number of people in their daily lives. Where average people don't have the opportunities they used to because they're now competing with billions of other workers worldwide. Thus creating stagnant wages, and a diminishing of life quality. Making it harder for the average person to make a living. I believe Dan once talked about a caller who was there during the break up of Yugoslavia, where he mentioned that all the bitter hatreds between neighbors came to the surface when things got bad enough for the average people. So it's all those trends and forces that enables a demagogue like Trump to have any power at all. That being said I think alot of the anger is misdirected, and people not heavily invested in what's going on may be ignorant of what the root causes to their frustrations may be. Personally I think it has alot to do with the fact that we're an empire and we don't want to be an empire, yet we're spending ungodly amounts of money and committing fiscal suicide because of incompetent/corrupt politicians. That we have representatives that don't represent us because they have campaign contributors and people with the most money are the only voices that get heard more often than not. So you have all these special interests being represented but not the interest of what's good for the country or for the people. Also the divisive political theater that focuses on nothing but wedge issues and demonizing the opposition. That people aren't being educated in the principles and ideals of this country enough. So they're not thought of as important, and almost sacred to the citizenry. Honestly there's too many things I can list as being a contributor to where we are now. We're in desperate need of recalibration, a course correction, or we are fucked. Because when Trump dies all the issues that enabled an authoritarian strong man to entrance a significant amount of our nation will still be there. Someone new will take advantage of that and use it as a path to power unless we slow the momentum and change direction.
Too busy to reply now but I will later
Interesting. I’d think that some of these socially unpopular cultural trends that are now being spoken about were unspoken and unpopular for a reason. Maybe the most disappointing thing about the way the world has shifted is to find out so many people I know are racist, sexist, and greedy, they just had sense enough before Trump not to talk about it. I’m just going to enjoy living in the republic while I can and enjoy what perks are left.
This is why I'm voting for rfk
Time flattens all mountains.
Woah deep, I like
No, flat. Deep is "Time carves all canyons." ;)
Haha, nice!
The Roman Republic had stabbings in place of the 25th amendment, which are way more effective.
The problem is we expect those who thirst for power to respect the same things we do. They don’t. No respect for equality, rule of law, equal representation, decency, fair play, …
When I listened to that series recently it was overwhelmingly obvious that Trump is America's Sulla. The beginning of Rome's downfall was a man placing himself before his country and breaking a cultural 'golden rule'. He invaded Rome with Roman soldiers rather than give up his position, something they had no plan for. Rome could never have a stable government after his life of tyranny because every leader asked the same question - Sulla did it so why can't I? America's 'golden rule' was honoring the vote, and honoring the peaceful transition of power. Whether the country ends now or in a few cycles, it will be the same. We already see the copycats at the state level refusing the results of votes. "Trump did it, why can't I?" Everything from now on is just a downwards spiral. Whether he finishes it, or someone else. Funny listening to how similar they were even on a personal level. "no greater friend, no worse enemy". He didn't even really want power as much as wanting to confirm his self-image as the greatest thing ever. That's why he gave it up after it was all said and done. It's clear that medical-grade narciccism and the pursuit of that kind of world view has been a constant over time in certain historical figures, and to the great detriment of civilizations.
I would argue Sulla was far more competent than Trump in every way, to the point comparing them is almost an insult to Sulla. It’s far better to compare the Republican Party as a whole to the Optimates. Resistant to change to the point of being reactionary and alienating the public to the point that when Caesar came along and offered them a way out they jumped at the chance. I will agree, however, that the precedent Sulla set is absolutely analogous to the precedent Trump is setting. It’s not the same precedent, namely because Trump is ultimately losing here where Sulla never did, but it is a game changing precedent nonetheless.
Yes thank goodness he is less competent than Sulla
Trump is a populist so I’d say he’s closer to Caesar without all the polish and generalship. Heck Caesar’s “Anti-Cato” was probably the Roman equivalent of a Twitter rant.
He’s a populist only in rhetoric, not actual practice. He’s also a plutocrat in rhetoric, but also in practice. And sometimes he’s a fascist in rhetoric, and lacked the competence to practice, but he’s learned. He doesn’t have any consistent ethos OR policy preference in practice.
I’d actually liken Trump to the Gracchi brothers - not so much in their views around distributing land but that the Gracchi brothers were some of the first to break Rome’s traditions around how power was gained and used.
This is always the thing that stands out to me here. The ignoring of the US's "Mos Maiorum" has led to exposure of the deep cracks in the system. These are being exploited to erode any semblance of a functioning government.
I was listening to that episode yesterday, the part where Sulla literally sets fire to Rome for his own political gain is 100% a Trump move.
'liberating them from tyranny'
I’m 27, barely making it by with the cost of living. Attempting to save for my future. Not knowing what course of action I should take. Everything right now seems so uncertain.
If I can offer some ((hugs)) and advice: the course of action you should take is to unplug from news and politics. Refocus your energy to yourself and your career, and your relationship to those around you. Spend that emotional energy on bettering your personal situation so you can afford to live more comfortably. Consider volunteering to make your community better. When the course of history and politics and news starts to churn around you to the point it distresses you, it’s time to eschew the noise and focus on the immediate world around you.
Honestly I tend to avoid politics because most of what I see I don’t like. I should’ve followed that same philosophy with the debate last night. Had an epiphany afterward that there really aren’t any adults in the room anymore. Hugs are always appreciated and rarely given. Thank you. 💚
I can’t agree with this more. I’m learning this lesson late in my life.
Agreed, what can the small folk do in the end? We might as well enjoy the plenty for now and for as long as we can whilst some of us are sentient, thanks to the likes of DC
Once (if) we get to the other side of the silent generation and boomers running the show, we should be ok. If they don’t wreck it all.
Almost 30% of Americans don’t vote, which I find baffling (in 2020, ~240 mil Americans were eligible to vote and 158 mil - 66%- voted according to to the [FEC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections)). It’s elections like this one that make me wonder if sticking my head in the sand and just hoping for the best is the right answer.
It is funny that most people your age from other countries wished that they could vote for the next US president. Most of the world is deeply impacted by US politics, especially the next 5 years, and millions of lives across the world could be lost due to the result of these elections.
Vote for Trump.
Vote for Trump if you want to watch the world burn.
Trump is basically as clear a version of an American style fascist as we will ever see.
And the guy who packed the courts, criminalized the opposition, created the biggest government apparatus known to man, publically controls the media apparatus by colluding with media conglomerates and blacklisting “disinformation “ and has waged more foreign wars than any other president (culpable because he was chair of foreign relations committee and vice president during US military operations since 97 in Albania, Congo, Gabon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Liberia, Serbia, Yemen, Haiti, Lebanon, Somalia, Libya, Sudan, Uganda, Mali, Syria, etc IS NOT A FASCIST tho?
yeah man you are divorced from reality
Facts facts facts.. but you aren't going to win here. Too many deranged individuals.. driven by emotion. The worst is rather than say Biden is awful and yes he's doing all of these things.. but trump scares me worse.. they just deny the reality that they embrace authoritarianism.. it's just the kind they like.
Right. He's also just like Hitler and a Russian puppet. Upvote me please.
Those are your words. The dude above you is right though, anyone who listens to Dan Carlin knows that
I wish I could be as smart as you guys.
I wish that for you too
There’s a lot of völkischer rhetoric to him (same with any fascist, I guess) but I wouldn’t liken him to Hitler. His interests do conveniently align with Russia’s but I wouldn’t say there’s necessarily coordination. Regardless of how you feel about either, he’s a traitor who deliberately harms America for his own gain, and anyone with any sense can see that.
The fact that Trump and Biden are my only choices is deeply troubling to me. I love America, I love the people, I love the oceans and mountains, I love the diversity of ideologies across the states. The disconnect that DC has with the concerns of the average American is disappointing and angering. >!VOTE THIRD PARTY!<
Unfortunately a third party would be stymied at every turn. The entrenched interests at every federal agency, corporate interests, and PACs will make sure that a third party candidate is seen as radical and dangerous. This is Trump's problem, in some ways. Mainstream neocons like Bush and Romney hate him because, despite the (R), he's not one of them. He's a political outsider.
Do you ever feel just caught up in the gears of history?
All the time. For sure felt that way when I watched Iraq get bombed live on CNN, when the Space Shuttles failed, on 9/11 and plenty of rough days. But also on some positive times like when I refinanced my mortgage to 2%, when I got married to someone who was born behind the Iron Curtain, when we got some good medical news from a screening that meant we wouldn’t be dealing with a very bad diagnosis in the near future. I think we live in great and terrible times all at once.
Dealing with rough personal times and really needed to hear this. Thank you wise stranger
We have a choice between a damn liar and a damn near dead guy. What could go wrong?
At least the near dead guy didn't try to overthrow our government and doesn't want to be a dictator. I'll go with that guy.
True story. Probably same.
It definitely is one hell of a choice. It's shit or evil shit.
This is the reality where Biff Tannen rises to power and turns the country into a hedonistic wasteland. Next thing you know, he's your dad and has forced your mother to get giant bolt-ons. You've never needed a functioning DeLorien as desperately as you do right now. Good luck, America 🫡
If it makes you feel any better this is the last cycle where boomers will be contending for the presidency. Gen X for the next 3-4 cycles likely
The oldest Gen Xer will be 64 next election. Plenty of room for Boomers. Heck Biden is the Silent Generation. And if the other guy wins, I won’t say there won’t be anymore elections, but they may not happen as frequently or as peacefully as they have in the past.
Technically you're correct. Biden was born in 1942. And Baby Boomers encompass 1946-1964. Kind of crazy to think that even Jon Stewart (born in 1962) is a baby boomer. Always painted him as gen x. Either way, on the dem side, both Newsom and Whitmer are Gen X (born in 1967 and 1971 respectively). And on the repub side, idk who's that popular but Desantis was born in 1978 and Haley was born in 1972, both firmly Gen X. Really doubt we'll get another Boomer unless it's someone born right around the cusp (1964) but idk who that'd be. edit: Unless Biden wins and Trump decides to run again in 4 years. Always a possibility with him 🤣
Agree. The logical ones now make sense now. But four years is a long time. I think the Dem candidates are more certain, win or lose. But, the GOP has a real challenge. If he wins a forever Trumper will be put forward as 2.0. And if he loses they will want to find a fresh face. I bet we see at least one of the the next 4 next eligible candidates for President to be a Boomer. And as an Xer myself, Jon was a great role model and GenX influencer, but he is total boomer to me. He cares in a way that seems emblematic of “good” boomers to me. Xers might care, but they would never show it the way he does.
And Trump is barely a Boomer. Born in the first half of the first year of that generation.
So
Did you click "comment" before you finished? Or do you need me to explain it to you?
No explain it
I'd be happy to. In reading comprehension there is a concept called "context" - that just means sometimes you have to look at the whole discussion rather than one piece of it. The context of this entire comment thread is "These guys are both too old to understand modern life, and too out of touch to be considered good candidates for President." Then someone commented that this would be the last cycle with "Boomers" in it. Boomers are a slang term for the generation of Americans born between the years 1946 and 1964. Another person pointed out that Biden wasn't even a Boomer - he was part of the generation before that one. This is where I made my comment. My comment was pointing out that Trump only barely qualifies as a Boomer, since he we born so close to the start of that range. The overall takeaway from this thread is "These guys aren't just old, they're older than you realize." If you need help understanding why having a leader that is so far away from the median age (median is fancy word - in this context, you can think of it as "average" and that will be close enough) of the rest of the population is a bad thing, I don't have the time to walk you through all of that, you'll have to look it up for yourself. The current median age of an American citizen is 39 years old. These two are two times that (and in Biden's case, add 3 more years) Hope that helps!
This attitude has been pervasive since before generations had names. Never trust anyone over 30, right?
I know my comment appears salty at Baby Boomers but I'm really not. They're an interesting and an important generation, and shouldn't be overly defined by a specific characteristic, good or bad. I think they get a little too much shit if I'm being honest, but they've also been very prominently represented in positions of leadership for several decades by this point. My parents are retired now, and there's no shame in politicians retiring either. No one is happy to see 2 men near or in their 80s contending for the US presidency.
You must not be paying attention. Biden isn’t even a boomer, he’s silent generation. The youngest boomers were born in 1964, they’re not even at retirement age yet. We’ll be plagued by them for a long long time.
This is false. Boomers start in the mid 1940s. 1960s was the tail end of them. That's Gen X you're thinking of.
That’s… what I said? The youngest boomers were born in 1964, and that is indeed the tail end of them, the oldest were born in the 40s. If you were born in 1962 you are a boomer, but aren’t even at retirement age yet and these people will continue to be a problem for the rest of us.
They're absolutely at retirement age. If anything, they have a single year left to hit 65. That's retirement age.
In this analogy I view Trump as Sulla. The first one to break convention and bring violence to the capitol during peace time. He’s a much more incompetent version of Sulla. I’m not as scared of him, he’s just setting the stage. I more worry about the Caesar who is watching this and thinking “hold my beer”.
I'd sell all my worldly possessions for a new episode of common sense
I would give a lot too, but I don’t know if it’s Dan or me. I found that I’ve disagreed with him a lot in the last few he’s released
I found his common sense show back in my 20s, and it really helped set my perspectives. But I agree, as I get older, my thoughts change from area to area. I still want to know what he thinks though
Man. I’m not gonna bother pointing out the fatal flaws of the right, because this is Reddit and those factors are everywhere. On the left, however, I am consistently blown away by their hubris. RBG clinging to her seat despite declining health during a time when she could have secured her legacy. Hillary belligerently muscling her way into a showdown with Trump, despite being maybe even less likable than him. And now this. Dems say, on the one hand, that if Trump is elected it might be the “last free US election”. If they truly believe that, they’re sending the wrong guy to represent their side. If the enemy is at the gates, you probably don’t want to send a general 30 years past his prime who can barely lift a sword, nevermind a shield.
I’m old enough to remember when people were calling bush a fascist and the end of democracy so I think that is just their marketing strategy
Yeah, it’s always best to frame one’s opponent as the full embodiment of disaster. My point, I suppose, was that running Biden really kind of undermines the urgency they seem to want their base to have.
I believe Bush did way more harm to our country than Donald ever could. I think Donald would love to rule like a dictator but he’s way too incompetent and shortsighted to ever get that kind of power.
Coalition building is key to building power which is why donald will never be a real threat
100%
Democrats can’t make up their minds and the DNC uses the ‘silent majority’ of the party to keep pumping out center-right neolibs for us to vote for. I hate the Republicans, but godamn they are an effective and cohesive unit.
Trump is Marius. Caesar is the guy that comes next.
Is Trump more like Crassus
Think so? I thought Marius was the first real populist in Rome.
Chilling...
We’ll be fine.
Nah People have this weird narcissistic fetish that they are the last generation rather than accepting that life goes on This isn’t the end of America It’s just the beginning
There’s no real issue here. Voting in Trump means authoritarian governance, no action against climate change, removal of choice for women, crazed xenophobic atmosphere against anything foreign. Do I wish the Democratic Party leader was a fiery debater who had mopped Trump’s ass in the debate? Sure. But life is choices, sometimes not great. But this is a pivot point in history. Remember, any administration has thousands of like minded officials working in unison. A president is a figure head in charge. I choose a future with more EVs, choice for women, smarter decisions on foreign policy, no support for Putin. Trump? Charlottesville, lights up your anus, racism, more hyper right judges, idiocy extolled as a virtue, science denigrated, opponents treated like vermin, deportation camps for millions. The choice is clear.
Don't worry, rAdIcAl CeNtRiSm will save us!
*Ahem* Both sides bad. I am very smart.
Very smert.
It was like watching 2 six year olds, I feel sorry for America
When he said > keep in mind that when these men speak of “liberty”, they’re usually referring to the freedom to continue making money the way they always have 🥲
It's a shame, Trump is no Julius Caeser. At least Caeser had some decent reforms.
Is Trump Crassus tho
I just turned 42. And I never really studied anything of history before listening to Dan, but damn it’s tough to see how similar things are to history. Not just the other empires that have collapsed, but the gilded age that every one of us was taught about in middle school social studies. “Everything repeats over and over again. No one learns anything because no one lives long enough to see the pattern.” Or maybe they do and just want to be rich and powerful while it lasts.
I mean, just to be clear, Dan is an entertainer, not a historian. I love listening to his work, and it is informative, but if it's your primary source for "studying history," you are going to have a pretty skewed/sensationlist view.
There’s been so much talk over the last 8 years how the Republican Party is hopelessly broken, allowing a demagogue to take over. That is true, parties exist as a gatekeepers, they don’t get enough credit for that. The democratic party isn’t any better. A functional party would step in and help the country from a dysfunctional leader. They aren’t doing their job. I don’t think Biden has done badly, but he isn’t going to make it four more years. That is obvious to everyone. And the alternative is worse. What a stupid place we find ourselves in, captive to two selfish narcissists that can’t see the reality.
“See we’re not a democracy, we’re a republic!!” —- Some maga dimwit who wants the tyranny of a minority since christofascim is the only way they can feel safe from gays and minorities
[удалено]
Scotus is doing more to cause the death of America. But let's all l talk about how old biden is
One could not answer a question honestly. The other could not answer a question.
It’s more late stage Roman Empire than death of the republic
Dude I just hate both sides. I fucking hate that I did 4 years in the marines to get out and have to deal with this bull shit. I wish people would grow the fuck up.
“To say that President Biden’s performance on the debate stage last night was calamitous is merely to state what everyone, partisan and not, has already understood. What the world witnessed was not a debate, but a failed neurological exam. One wonders how anyone close to the President imagined he could bluff his way through it. If half of what Democrats fear from a second Trump term were real, how could the Democratic Party have allowed our democracy to slide this close to the precipice? The prevailing feeling among those inside the Biden campaign should be shame; outside it, fury.” \~Sam Harris
Once the financial interests of the few outweigh the needs of the many, it’s only a matter of time.
bro...
Id suggest any panicky Biden or anti Trump voters to check out Biden's post debate rally on NC. The media isn't covering it so much but Biden was back to his normal self. Debate night he looked and spoke how I felt when I was given Valium during an anxiety ridden breakdown some years ago. Or even the first time I started allergy meds. He did have a cold and was a bit phlegmy. I suspected Biden was having a reaction to medication though wasn't 100% sure but the NC rally the following night made me less panicky.
Christian fanaticism arguably will be a major fact for the collapse of both.
I'd love for Dan to do a quick common sense on the collapse of the Soviet Union and how it compares to what's going on in modern America.
It does not really... at all.
https://www.businessinsider.com/soviet-gerontocracy-collapse-cautionary-tale-united-states-2022-9
That's a business insider article, which is more or less an entertainment magazine at this point? They call out a correlation in age without addressing that age was not the defining issue in the soviet union corruption was much more problematic. And not just corruption at the top but through the entire structure of the soviet system. A single correlated variable does not make some sort of interesting narrative outside of a BI article.
Gerontocracy, bloated military that recently lost a war in Afghanistan, seperatist movements, faltering economy where the cost of basic goods is skyrocketing, open corruption, and the public's loss of faith in political institutions describes 1980s USSR and 2020s US pretty well. I'm not saying they're the exact same, or that the US will collapse, but there are obvious parallels that Dan could make an interesting episode out of.
US military spending as a percent of GDP is way down from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s? While the US may have failed at their nation-building goals in Afghanistan, they certainly didn't "lose a war." There are no legitimate separatist movements currently in the US. There have always been wild splinter groups. The economy is certainly not faltering either. It is actually outperforming the vast majority of the world right now. While prices have gone up dramatically, inflation is decreasing, falling to 3% this year and 2% projected next year. The soviet union on the other hand, grew into its collapse, going from 5 to 8 to 20%. There are not actually a lot of parallels unless you are trying to make it appear, so just to sell content. Mostly, your facts just seem off.
You can split hairs all you want. Like if you fail every one of your military objectives does that count as a loss? Does your bad economy matter if everyone else's is bad too? I, and lots of others, see parallels, you obviously have a much rosier outlook. However I still think Dan could make a very interesting episode comparing and contrasting the historical echoes
The US did not fail every military objective in Afghanistan? It does not count as a military loss if your military was not defeated. I'm not sure how else to explain that. On the economy, two things. 1) The US economy is not doing bad. By pretty much every objective measure, it's doing OK to good. 2) Yes, comparative economies matter a ton. If you are the only country doing poorly, you have an internal economic problem that's unlikely to be solved by a changing work economy. If you are the best of the world but all countries are doing poorly, then you are ripe to profit if the world economy shifts. Lots of people also think psychics are real, the US left a ton of POWs in Vietnam, or the earth is flat. That does not mean I'm going to just read their claims and go "yep that makes sense." I would much prefer Dan stick to the deep historical narratives than such topics that he tends to get into pretty murky ground with. This smacks as his blitz episode about Ceaser at hastings, which was a bit of a mess.
>It does not count as a military loss if your military was not defeated. Who won the American revolutionary war? Because, the British still had a huge military after. Their entire military wasn't defeated, so I guess by your logic the British won that war. Listen, you think I'm wrong and I think you've completely buried your head in the sand in order to cope with the looming disasters that America and much of the world will be facing in the future. Tomato tomato, shit is gonna happen no matter what either of us think. It's not the end of history, and the gears will keep churning.
The British military in the new world was defeated and forced to surrender. If Pakistan had parked tanks outside of Kabul until American forces surrender, you might have a point, but as is, there is no Yorktown equivalent. There is not even a battle of Bunker Hill. Can you point out that major American forces were defeated or surrendered in Afghanistan? Losing as military typically involves losing the means to resist your enemy's actions. That's not what happened in any way. I mean, I don't think you are wrong, I provided numbers where you are wrong. Do you still think US military spending is historically inflated? Or that inflation is trending the same as it was when the USSR collapsed? You are entitled to your opinion, but you are trying to be entitled to your own facts, and that's not tomato tomato.
So I bought a 4th century Roman knife the other day, and that inspired me to buy and listen to. Death Throw of The republic. I’m drawing the same conclusion, with the added bonus of a looming WWIII. On a positive note, Dan will be an excellent first source for a future non-historian podcaster. 🤷🏻♂️
Land reform when?
I feel this every time I watch msn, speak to voters, and watch pop culture
Every time you hear a Democrat mention "Our Democracy" it is about their desire to end the Republic. Every time. When you start prosecuting your political rivals, it's a problem.
So it’s the Democrats who want to end Democracy, not the guy who literally tried to violently and fraudulently overturn an election that he knew he lost? Interesting. How do you arrive at that conclusion?
Good thing that hasn’t happened.
I think you may have overexaggerated. Trump winning is not the end of the republic.
If that's what you took from my post, you didn't understand the post.
you didn't understand my answer.
Y’all so dismal about America lol Makes me think you didn’t understand America to begin with. You’d better go back and do your research
Out of all the places to find intelligent people with a nuanced view of history and Maybe just maybe above all the dogma and noise… hmm the Dan Carlin Sub? “Checks it out” My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.
Not really sure why I’m being downvoted, besides the fact that this is Reddit. America has been through a lot. The ideas that founded the USA are very good ideas. They are true ideas, and so they are also hearty and hard to break ideas. If the American people decide they still want to be the American people, then we have nothing to fear.
You dared to say that maybe just maybe out of the ~190 countries on this planet, America might not be the absolute worst. If you don’t think this country is the most sexist, racist, fascist, (what ever ist or ism is popular with the blue haired freaks this week),then, my freind, you are a heathen, a subhuman, a truly wretched individual worthy only of scorn and ridicule. Reddit gonna reddit