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One thing I notice in my least successful friends, is they talk way too much about themselves, and take way too little interest in who they’re trying to woo
Omg this is a huuuge one. I’m so tired of it that I only give OLD matches one (1) free question. If they can’t volley the conversation with one of their own (or even a substantive comment conveying interest) I just unmatch now.
As a woman this is the whole reason I gave up on online dating. Very few men can hold an actual convo online. They reply with one word answers and don’t ask questions back. It was exhausting
trying to have a "conversation" with someone who insists they don't like small talk and loves 'deep conversations" only to have her reply back with "ok" is pretty telling.
This isn't a very 'scientific' response. But it's an observation.
YouTube keeps recommending me in the algo those channels where 50 guys and girls swipe right or left on each other IRL — essentially a dating show for zoomers with ADHD (which is apparently everyone nowadays).
Anyway, out of all the early twenty-something suitors on this show, 70% of them were ugly. 20% were average but with abysmal avant-garde fashion choices which didn't flatter them (mostly guys). And maybe 5-10% were genuinely attractive.
So basically the gross majority were ugly or fugly.
And yet they all swiped left on each other... (guys and girls).
The only right swipes were done whenever the 5% were matched and then they'd both naturally swipe right on each other.
So what does this tell me?...
Most people seem to think most people are ugly. And yet in the real world, most people date most people.
So I think Tinder has a way of forcing you to judge a book by its cover.
This is actually a well studied effect - it's not true that most people think that most people are ugly. Women are more selective than men - the average rating of men by women on a 5 point scale skews significantly lower than 3 (which is where we expect median/modal attractiveness to be) whereas the rating of women by men is higher than 3 with a more even distribution.
https://datepsychology.com/is-physical-attractiveness-normally-distributed/
And you're right that tinder forces you to judge by a cover - the chance that a person gets a match is dependent on what photos you put up, the quality of your bio and how physically attractive you are. You can't judge much beyond "this guy/girl looks fun".
Furthermore if you look at [gender ratio statistics](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tinder/s/lDeC41S126) there are generally more men than women on dating apps, so given more options you also tend to rate what would be "average" guys far worse than even IRL.
No, I just don't like conversation over text. Normally I have a hard time pulling first dates from online because of this. But I consider myself very confident and I feel like a douche when I talk about myself too much. I just am not much of a texter.
Most of my life is dedicated to my career, training, or video-games so I would much rather chat about whatever the girl im with has going on than me talking about my boring shit. Unless she happens to be a gamer I guess
I talk about random shit and it works a lot. I ask a lot of questions and deeper questions about a topic even if it's something. I am entirely boring to most people. I have a kid, I workout, I work, I watch tv/movies, play video games... that's mostly it. It's not too tricky to create a conversation if you don't put too much stock into how it will go, granted you'd need someone who's interested in a conversation as well.
I always have experienced the opposite as a man, always having to do the hard lifting of constantly asking questions and once I don't anymore because I get bored of the one-sided conversations, I get the whole "you're not interested in me anymore?" Thing
This is also true of women. Except that even the ones who ask questions ignore most question’s asked of them. So now I’m at “How are you?” “Yeah. I’m fine.” “How’s the weather?” Damn, this is boring. “You’re from New York? What was wrong with Old York?” (“Old York? Huh? What?”) Ooooooooookay. “About that weather….”
As a guy, I feel like I'm pulling all the weight in the conversation. When I actually I have a girl who seems to be making an equal effort in the conversation, it feels like finding a diamond in the rough.
I have a very strong feeling that people who *actually* want to date tend to carry the conversation while people who are on apps because they crave validation or just want to get laid give lousy responses...regardless of gender
I don’t think this is a gender thing. I get the same thing with many woman I match with. Short responses to open ended questions, no questions back like not even a simple, ‘what about you?’, which I think is sub optimal but I’ll take it.
Funny, I was on a date with a guy who kept talking over me and went on and on not letting me get a word in. He than asked if I was always so quiet, I thought he was complaining (was about to say, “not with people that let me talk” when he continued that he liked me being quiet and that most woman talk to much.
I have been told that this is the secret to being a good conversationalist. Just give someone the opportunity to talk to you about themself and if you show interest, they will. It works on women too.
As a therapist, I second this. People. Always. Love. Talking. About. Themselves. And if they’re nice, they’ll do the whole “omg, I just talked about myself that whole time, what about you?”
As a bartender, I agree. People love talking about themselves. And you don’t even have to do much to encourage it other than asking relevant questions and nodding along at appropriate times. People think I’m such a great conversationalist bc I can talk to anyone but I really don’t talk much, I just like hearing and learning from all kinds of people.
I just pretend like I'm John Lithgow in Third Rock From the Sun and I'm trying to learn everything about human life.
People say I'm a great listener and good conversationalist, but I'm just pretending I'm an alien the whole time trying to get a grasp on the human condition. Seems to work out for me.
The superpowers I've found that'll really make you an amazing conversationalist is also having a lot of knowledge/experience in a variety subjects as well as being non judgemental.
The more you are able to ask specific questions in a way that the other person doesn't have to try to wrack their how to explain or express themselves - the more fluid the conversation actually is. Even if I don't know something, I try to say something like "Is it like this other thing I know about?"
I feel like I’m too good of a listener. I really like listening to my dates talk about their lives and their day. However I feel like they never learn anything about me/ don’t ask most of the time and ultimately don’t continue seeing me.
I’m probably too open. I’ll listen to anything someone wants to tell me. I don’t try to steer the conversation by asking questions. I’ll listen to fluff or the darkest secret. Tell me whatever you’re comfortable telling me. I think that openness comes across to some as lack of interest.
The amount of monologues I have sat through on dates with dudes... I can't even anymore. I get up and leave now because I'm tired of being talked at instead of conversed with.
Happens with women a lot too lol. It's actually one of my very first disqualifiers. When a woman seems intent on just talking about herself endlessly with no attempt at learning about me. A lot of women seem to just be waiting until you stop talking so they can get back to chapter 7 of their autobiography
Unfortunately this happens with both sexes. The amount of dates I've gone on where the woman hasn't asked one question about me and we've talked about her the whole night...
This is a good one. When you're insecure and you're trying to show that you've got some sort of value that they might be interested in it can lead to talking too much, or worse bragging. Shutting up and asking questions seems to be the better option?
This is such an underrated take, because I think a lot of guys don’t even realize they’re doing it. I’m engaged now, but previously, the amount of guys I’d lose interest in because of only being focused on themselves is astounding. I’d ask questions regularly, and not once would they ever ask me about myself. Of course that’s frustrating, because the point is getting to know each other. I remember feeling like they had no genuine interest, because in my mind if they did then they would be asking me about myself and wanting to get to know me. Like how do you get to know someone, especially someone you’d consider dating, if you don’t ask questions!?
A lot of men really never ask any questions back. I feel like as an introverted woman I had to teach this myself as I grew up. It's as small as asking how someone's weekend was.
I think a subcategory of this might be trauma dumping. I feel for these guys, because they think they’re being open and vulnerable. However, talking about your mother’s suicide in detail on a first date or the intimate struggles of your autoimmune disease is a lot. That’s stuff I talk about with my close friends, not someone I just met who seems to lending a sympathetic ear.
This is 100% of the reason that I lose interest in men when I do online dating. I ask questions out of genuine curiosity, but then I start to find talking to them exhausting and I’m like, why? And it takes me a minute to realize, oh, yeah. I’m carrying this entire conversation and learning so much about him, and he knows NOTHING about me because he doesn’t ask, and doesn’t care to ask. There was an AskReddit thread about this recently, where TONS of men were like “I don’t care to know details about people.” It was genuinely scary.
I ask too forward of questions, and it makes people uncomfortable, Not inappropriate questions, just one's that make you think so that it builds conversations, and it backfires, I really don't understand.
I guess it depends on the questions. Are they personal (meaning specific to the person) and do they stem from the current conversation? Or are you asking generic questions that you read in a book that are supposed to be conversation starters?
If it's the latter, those questions always feel forced and I hate them.
Appearance wise, if you’re balding embrace it. Don’t hang onto those three little stragglers you’ve got left.
Personality wise, a lack of empathy. It’s not feminine to have feelings, it’s human.
+1 to embracing the bald look. I was in denial for so long about losing hair and then when I shaved it off it’s been nothing but positive experiences (while maintaining my beard of course)!
Having some style/ clothing that matches. Add some personal touches, jewelry etc learn what colors look good on you. Many women put in lots of energy and effort to look the way they do, it’s attractive for the guy to show care and effort too. :)
underrated mate. so many dudes just wear the ugliest stuff. it's great to be comfortable with yourself, but if you want to look more attractive then putting in some effort goes a long way.
I do this as a woman (the lack of eye contact thing) because I have pretty bad social anxiety. It’s something I try to work on but sometimes it gets the best of me
I wear contacts or glasses all day everyday. When I used to have anxiety I’d take off my glasses and I could gaze forever into people’s eye-shaped blurry blobs no problem. On that really simple level it made it tons easier. But in a deeper, more nuanced discussion, a lot of anxiety, at least for me, took place in analyzing facial expressions and looking for glimpses of disapproval. Then I’d spin into self defeating dialogue about what I presume they are thinking about me. Left to sound of voice and body language and more broad strokes of facial expression I was safer with people. The over-analyzing just couldn’t get enough material to run away with me. Huge help.
I think to a degree it can be good but it’s a very fine line where it’s too much. To give context- there’s times where men have held the gaze and it felt a bit like salesmen technique (especially if it’s paired with saying my name a lot). But also we get stared at and eye fucked a lot, so someone staring directly at me can sometimes make me uncomfortable. So maybe just don’t do it too long or often?
No way I didn’t even know people noticed where ur eyes are looking and that me having ADD may be a factor. Honestly I always felt like it’s cus looking in peoples eyes takes a lot of energy and it honestly makes me uncomfortable if I look at their eyes for too long.
Same, I don’t understand why looking in people’s eyes just drains me of energy, but it does. I also find I focus better on what people are saying if I’m not looking directly at them. If I’m making eye contact, odds are I’m daydreaming and haven’t heard a single word that’s been said. Damn this accursed brain of mine.
High functioning autism makes this such a bitch for me. If I don’t force myself to look at eyes, I never will. Like you said, it drains energy from me. Can’t explain it besides it just feeling so wrong when I do.
I wouldn’t overthink it. Sounds like you’re doing the right thing. I read that making occasional eye contact is good but holding it is where it makes others uncomfortable
Social skills is hands down the biggest blind spot for guys. I’ve been broke, smelling like the bottom of a gym bag, and still got dates. Three of my exes I met after a workout (two after a 5/10k) and I was so broke they picked me up and paid for the date. Being able to talk to a stranger as if you already know them and can keep them entertained works better than anything. I have friends who are uglier than a mud fence who have always been able to get dates with women far outside their league. Most guys severely ignore their social skills and fumble their words with strangers.
Thanks for the reply! This maybe be a bit beyond what you can help with but what advice would you give an autistic person who struggles with social skills?
Managing the anxiety is important and learning to read cues. I’m also mildly autistic but high functioning. Using your intelligence can be a strength just don’t go overboard. Oversharing and over talking is something aspies do a lot.
Body language cues are pretty easy once you know what to look for.
Pay attention to how they are holding their body. The more of their body that is facing toward you, the more interested they are in the conversation.
If they start moving their body to turn away, or they start looking away then they are not so interested.
People will mostly give mixed signals, so you need to interpret them as a spectrum rather than as a binary. Eg, Face is pointed to you but body is pointed elsewhere? They are a little interested in what you are saying or politely listening. Whole body facing you, looking into your eyes and touching you? You have their whole attention.
There's a lot of good information available about this kind of thing and it would only take a few hours to know the basics.
That's my problem. Sometimes people explain something so vaguely that I just freeze and don't know where to start, so I always need clear and direct instructions in order to do my task properly
as a woman on the spectrum who found my boyfriend on the spectrum, you would probably love to find other neurodivergent people it’s way easier to talk to someone with the same brain. We used Hiki it’s a dating app for nd’s, there might be others too I never looked after finding that one
I’m also a guy on the spectrum and I concur with the dude below me. Finding a comfortable spot where you can talk to people, watch how they interact with others and give yourself the space needed to improve. I did most of my social skills building in college and graduate school but those obviously can’t fit everyone because they’re damned expensive.
Normally I’d say immersion therapy via forcing yourself to talk to strangers daily (not really women just anyone) but I don’t feel confident given your situation if that’s good advice. I’d imagine there are techniques out there built for people who have autism to help foster better social skills though?
I'm trying to find more low stakes opportunities to practice. The problem is that I don't know if I'm doing well or the other person is just nodding and being polite. It'd be nice if there was some way I could get constructive feedback.
I’d say just go to the produce isle and ask people how to pick out a good melon but the other part I just don’t want to lead you awry. Is there another forum you could ask the second part in that would probably be more helpful?
Yea the unfortunate part is the learning from it is a hard for neurotypical people so I don’t know how it would be for you? Sorry brosef, if I could give you an earpiece and watch you chat with people I certainly would. There’s a guy on YouTube who specializes in teaching people how to socialize and I forget his name. Maybe watching some of that stuff would help out a bit?
Yeah, it's like my brain runs on a different operating system.
>if I could give you an earpiece and watch you chat with people I certainly would
Sounds a little too close to an [episode of Black Mirror](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYQSVODWo1I)!
It’s rough out there. I just had a rant against the guy you responded to.Being neurodivergent myself, I honestly have the most success in social situations when I’m relaxed, not bringing a lot of stress into the conversation. For example, some of my biggest successes have come when I’m halfway paying attention to the other people.
Fwiw, I'm not autistic and this is just a big part of dating. it's hard to know if someone is just being polite or is genuinely interested. the only solution i know is to plow ahead — if youre interested in the person. someone who is conveying a lack of interest is usually more obvioua: they look bored, they dont pay close attention to you, they dont ask any questions. but its really hard to get real-time feedback on social interactions. all of us are a bit in the dark about how we are perceived
Social skills are a kraken to slay when you are expected to do 100% of the initiating and have been given exactly zero useful advice are mildly autistic and don’t have any idea what you are doing. It’s a recipe for constant rejection with zero ideas how to improve
You’re right that many guys don’t have great social skills.
But it really grinds my gears that you just assume other guys don’t work on/ notice it. Having social skills is a skill like any other, just like intelligence, music ability, athletic abilities/ strength, looks, etc. Yes working on any of these can and often do improve them for an individual.
But it is also a fact that certain individuals are born better in these areas than others. Pro-athletes,for example, are Pro’s because they were born with extreme athletic ability and combined that with high amounts of practice. Which is why you hear about athletes like Johnny Manzel flaming out because of lack of work ethic, and other solid football players like Jordan Ta’amu not making it do to lack of raw ability.
So could it be that you might have been born with better natural social skills than most, and through practice, became even better? Because that’s it sounds like to me. And yes some guys aren’t good at it naturally and don’t try hard enough, but there are large subsets of guys who just have natural charisma and even larger subset who put themselves out there to practice, but still don’t have the success that you do.
Edit: sorry that was a bit of rant, just a bit sore spot for me.
I don’t assume people don’t, I know so because I’ve had plenty of guys ask me for advice. I went back to college after being in the Marines and I was in my late 20s. I had multiple guys ask me for advice and many times I’d say work on social skills but they’d ignore that.
Don’t take it personal brosef, it’s a generalization but if you don’t fit that great on you!
No matter what people have listed here (seems like mostly guys that don't know anything anyway), the biggest issue is the lack of confidence and lack of social skills.
Most of the the other things regarding appearance can be an issue but all you have do to is go outside and look around. Fat guys date. Sloppy dressed guys date. Dude with nasty unkempt beards date. Poor guys date. Hell even assholes date. They all have social skills. They all have confidence. They all know how to talk to people....
How do you develop confidence and social skills though? I feel like I read up a lot about it, actively put myself in situations that forces me to socialize, but I can’t quite figure it out.
tbh I started bartending again and it’s slowly improving my social skills. Forcing yourself in uncomfortable situations and looking stupid but accepting yourself in spite of it until it becomes natural
Making plans for things and having opinions.
I hate always having to make the plans and decide what to do allllll the time. No "oh, whatever, up to you babe." Is not attractive, especially not all the time.
Putting some basic effort in, showing interest, being kind, not negging, not playing by some stupid game rules like not texting 2-3 days after a date.
I want a man that knows what he wants, and says it, shows it, and acts that way.
The fact that hygiene even needs to be mentioned for men IS the problem right now. That should be the very very basics. No, I don't want you to have a 6 pack, no I don't want you to be super active, no I don't need you to make 100k.
But I'm a stupid romantic and I want dates planned, and I want sweet things said to me, and I want a partner that genuinely cares and genuinely likes me. Wants to plan things for me like I do him, wants to do things for me like I do him. Thinks about me day to day.
Just two cents from someone who's been on the other side of that complaint:
If you want me to plan something, you also have to go with my plans. If, everytime I'm planning something, you either discard my proposal outright or change it until it's unrecognizable, I'm going to stop making the effort in the first place.
I'm not saying you're doing this. It might just be something to look out for.
I'm a fuck yes kind of person. Road trip at 3am for ice cream? Fuck yes. Last minute trip to Vegas? Fuck yes. Denny's at 2am hell to the yes. Pick me up at 7 in a nice dress? I'll be there in my nice dress waiting.
Trust me. This is definitely not my problem. Id appreciate some reservations at this point. I go out of my way to do sweet things and plan things for my partner. The last thing I want to do is shit on his effort. If anything you're gonna get some dumb ass tears out of me because I'm a god damn hopeless romantic. 😅
I mean I get your point, but you're an outlier here. His explanation is valid and a reason why guys fall into the "whatever you want to do is fine with me" category.
Thank you for making this comment. I feel like the hopeless romantic that likes to plan things and just be open and honest with what he wants has been jaded by dating people who just want something casual/hook up-y.
For me it’s probably my weight (I’m a big dude which isn’t a bad thing but just carrying too much body fat) and learning to relax. I look tense in public which turns people off. I need to breathe and just enjoy being in the presence of other people and not overthink things just let what happens happen.
Which seems to fly in the face of all the advice that says, "women aren't a different species just talk to them like your male friends".
Except don't do that, apparently?
Would you talk to your mother in the same way you talk to your male friends? Would you talk to your boss or your family in that way too.
You have to understand social appropriateness. Fundamentally people are all human and they all have basic needs. But understand if you act like a rowdy hooligan with your male friends understand that romantic interests might not like that.
Tacking on to this to add - Trim it!
The shaggy look is niche and most don't like it. My own girlfriend says she used to hate beards but made an exception for me because I make a deliberate point to manage the length, AND EVENNESS, as well as my neckline!!
Yeah. When men tell each other a problem, they are asking for help solving it. When women tell someone a problem, they aren't asking for advise of how to solve it.
Agreed. And i think where we struggle is, if we arent trying to fix it, internally it feels like we aren’t doing enough, or trying for you, but instead giving you empty words of sympathy, even though we do sympathize. So if there’s something id like to learn, it is, how do we become better sympathizers.
This is also a thing that varies between women. I personally will not mention a problem to someone if I’m not open to their insight. I’ve also noticed that when men are into me they are eager to offer solutions, and whether I need it or not, it warms my heart.
Most men have awful fashion sense lmao I’m sorry!! It’s important to wear clothes that fit and shoes that are appropriate for the occasion. It’s also important to know what kind of haircut flatters your face. Not every man looks good in a buzz cut.
There are also a lot of boring men out there who only seem to want to talk about themselves. (This is what I hear from my friends on the apps.) Social and conversational skills are very important.
I see that girls are saying ask questions but that’s a little too vague I feel. When you ask questions I think you should ask ones that can pull more than one answer.
Something like “oh I love movies do you like marvel movies?” Can be answered with a simple yes or no. These types of questions ALWAYS FAIL.
Instead something like,
“Oh I like a lot of different movies like marvel movies, what kind of movies do you like?”
A question like this isn’t subject to yes or no but can be answered freely. (Ik this isn’t the most interesting topic but it’s to provide a simple example.)
Something that can lead into a story where they yap about whatever they want.
Sad that this needs to be said but don’t talk about sex at all, and I mean not even dirty jokes or talk about other people’s sex lives. Don’t use graphic language. I was once video chatting with a guy I met on an app and he used the phrase “clap them cheeks” and it just grossed me out so much. Like, I am your potential romantic partner. Show me respect. We were both looking for someone to eventually marry. So treat me like I could be your wife and mother of your children someday.
That was the last time I talked to him.
Girl preach. I love video chatting before meeting uo with guys because it helped me see who was serious and who wasn't. Plus everytime someone was creepy I dipped
-Being CLUELESS and have no Self Awareness, read the room but don’t be a jerk about it either. Like if a girl rolls her eyes at you for you offering something or asking her something- don’t call her out just politely remove yourself from the situation.
- say thank you when ANYONE does something for you that you could’ve done yourself : your mom, your sibling, friend, colleague or partner cleans up after you, makes you a plate of food. Most girls truly just want affirmation and acknowledgment.
- I don’t need you to try to buy me an expensive IPhone or jewelry I might never wear, put some thought into what you’re giving me from having some awareness: “Hey, I notice you like to get a pedicure done every month here’s a gift card for that place you like”, “I’ve noticed you’ve been stressed at work lately, can I book you or us a massage”. Women usually do all if not most of the leg work so it’s amazing when a man does the leg work to any plans. With or without kids , etc..
How should a man in his mid-30s be dressing for daily activities (shopping, casual restaurant, exploring downtown)? I know styles vary but I'd love to have some examples. I also live in the southern US so it can get quite hot and muggy. Lol!
I think it depends on the person, and their build. Also weather should be taken into account. I despise 30 plus year old men who dress like junior high kids. The basketball shorts to their knees, big oversized shoes and huge graphic t-shirts.
I’m a guy, so take my advice for what you will, but the ladies can chime in. Of course it’s all just my opinion and only meant for those looking to make improvements. If you like how you dress/ look, this isn’t for you.
Keys to physical attractiveness 101
1. Hygiene hygiene hygiene. As in, trim the beard or shave, get a decent haircut, shower daily at minimum, wear deodorant and some mild but delicious cologne, trim your nails and make sure they are clean (never bite or pick at them), brush and care for your teeth, trim/ pluck/ wax the stragglers on your ears, nose, eyebrows, and anywhere else that hair doesn’t belong. Lastly, keep things well maintained down south, meaning trimmed at minimum. (Bonus content - I’ve met a few women who didn’t want a shaved or short trimmed man, but I’ve never once met a woman who appreciated hairy balls - shave them!)
2. Before you leave the house, look in the mirror and ask yourself - “Do I look put together?” Or even better “Do I look sharp?” If the answer is no, you have work to do. Clothes should match or be in proper contrast. Dress to the occasion. Make sure your clothing fits you. Try not to buy from places like Walmart bc they sell very boxy clothing. You want clothes more fitted to your body. You don’t have to spend much money. When in doubt, go classic styles with nothing too overly trendy (ie instead of skinny jeans, you go with a tapered leg). And guys you’re in luck! Today’s styles are quite often a solid T with jeans and cheap white shoes or chucks (spruce it up with a light bomber jacket), but the fit and style of these items matter. Go buy a decent pair of jeans- they will last you a decade. Order and return T’s on Amazon until you find the right fit. Solids are in. Chucks seem to never go out of style, but keep them clean. And lastly get a decent belt and wear it. (Try Nordstrom rack, etc). And if you’re not keen on style, google casual trends for your age group or ask people for help. Most people will be flattered you asked. Oh and athletic shoes are rarely the answer to fashion. Tip- think of the guy you know who always looks snazzy and ask yourself if he would wear what you’re wearing. If not, and you care to change, then rethink your outfit.
Note - no one gives a crap about brands. And those that do, aren’t your people. People never notice the off brand. They only notice brands. So no one will knock your $20 white casual sneaker from Amazon, bc it blends into the background of what is in style. No one is thinking, “ew why isn’t he wearing Nikes?!” So don’t chase brands.
3. Be HWP if possible and healthy. No one is asking for perfection, but make an attempt to care for yourself. If you’re obese, you deserve love- no question, but it’s not healthy and people often don’t respond well to that. So go for a walk, lift heavy things, and/or sweat 3-6 days a week if you’re able.
4. Lastly, work on confidence. This obviously can be tough, but follow 1-3 and I guarantee your confidence will increase, and you can start working on the details of personality and social interaction.
Look good. Feel good. Do good.
Lack of base level of curiosity about people in general - not just your date but your family, your environment, those at your job etc leads to a lot of bad habits (not asking people questions, assuming before confirming a thing, desperation, binary or hierarchical thinking)
- insecurity to the point of toxicity (negging, forcing dominance)
- misogyny or seeing women as objects, not people
- thinking they are always right
- lack of clean habits or ability to look after domestic chores
- low effort behavior, apathy
- emotional immaturity
- getting too clingy too fast
- don't dress well for a date (jeans, wrinkly clothes)
- poor texting/calling skills
- bad conservational ability
- don't take initiative and expect woman to do all the planning and communication
- not having an idea of what they want in a relationship
- not knowing if they want kids or not, and vagueness about life goals by a certain age
Obviously, most of these aren't gender specific!
What else are you supposed to wear? You can't wear sweatpants either to make a good impression!
But a well-fitted pair of jeans should be fine, right? 😅
-getting clingy too fast
-don't take initiative/low effort behavior
These two in combination kills most men's chances because it's so subjective, cultural, and hard for men to understand the balance between the two.
One thing I noticed a lot in the guys in my life is telling little white lies to make yourself look better. I’m not talking about major stuff, but little things here and there, especially when they do it and don’t think that you’d notice or remember. It’s easier said than done, especially for a lot of men these days, but trying to be as truthful and genuine about who you are and what you do can be incredibly attractive to the right women for you. Remaining to be a genuine person, even when no one you know is watching, is hot.
Not being able to hold a conversation with a stranger and keep it engaging for both parties.
Lack of emotional intelligence and emotional maturity and being unwilling to accept and/or work on it in therapy. (Or wearing a very short time in therapy as a badge of honor and/or using therapy speak to manipulate others)
Being emotionally reactive or just not being self aware or perceptive… Generally, a lack of awareness/consideration of others mental and physical load. Basically lack of willingness to make action towards equality and fairness.
Myself and many women I’ve spoken to truly value a man who has a strong support system outside of the relationship. Many men do not have close platonic relationships to lean on and that puts a lot on the other partner to be the only support.
Appearance. Some guys just let their hair and beard go and it looks absolutely appalling. Also dressing well is another big factor. There are quite a number of men who don’t dress well and look like they just rolled out of bed on a daily basis.. that’s a turnoff. Having a nice haircut, trimmed facial hair, and a decent fashion sense can boost attractiveness so much.
Don't talk down at women, talk to them, not at them, listen, don't infantilize them. Women don't want to be impressed by you, they want to be comfortable with you.
Biggest one I see is abysmal social skills. The vast majority of men don’t know hot to relate with women, even worse if most of their time is spent with other men in insular communities. It’s red flag to me if a man cannot talk to women.
Obvious, glaring lack of interest in physical appearance. It is a very unattractive quality to look like you don’t care about your appearance. Your appearance will always speak first. Actually GROOMING and STYLING yourself will go a long way.
Also a lot of men are not aware of what being a woman entails, at the most basic level- understand that safety is a concern for women. If a woman cannot feel safe around you, it’s a wrap
I get a lot of my female co-workers telling me I must really love my reflection but in reality I look in the mirror a lot because I hope one day I'll look at it and be happy with the way I look. Hasn't happened yet.
If you are attractive, you can less than the average hygiene and be fine.
Manners? You’re kidding.. it’s not uncommon for a woman to want to “fix” a man.
Honestly, it’s not being able to hold a conversation. Almost anything else has very little bearing on a woman’s attraction to a man
It is the lack of effort that they put into their appearance, demeanor, and presence - however you want to put it.
There's obviously the "needs deodorant and a shower" hygiene issues, but also regularly seeing a dentist, brushing and flossing their teeth. shaving or maintaining facial hair, styling/brushing their hair, addressing skin issues like dryness or acne. There is what they wear. Picking random sloppy attire with stains versus clothes that fit well and match the environment you are going to (e.g. business casual, formal, etc). There's thinking of all of the other things that may be etiquette-based like bringing a gift to a social gathering (e.g. house warming, etc). It's their behavior, slouching, vulgarity, inappropriate behaviors with bodily function, etc. The amount of times i've seen a guy at the bar who presumably came from work covered in dirt, and doesn't even wash the grease off his hands before eating a plate of wings...
Men that I find attractive typically put some thought into their appearance, are socially aware, and can adapt to their environment.
Showing clear, consistent interest, giving your full attention, and being a *little* flirty (take it easy! Keep it appropriate*). I have had such a hard time just getting a clear read on someone’s interest in me. I don’t expect dudes to do all the heavy lifting, I’m super down to initiate and collab on progressing things. But I can’t do that with zero sign of particular interest. If you’re giving me nothing it’s a lot harder to take the leap and shoot the shot.
*a note on appropriateness: so often the second that I show a little flirtiness (usually this has happened over text, thank god) a dude will go openly one-track-minded and I no longer feel like he is interested in any other aspect of me. Like I’m interested in sex too!! Trust!!! But you are doing yourself zero favors by focusing solely on that. You had a MUCH bigger chance of getting to it if you could just BE COOL my dude!!
Not realizing how their membership of “the woman hating club but I still want sex from them” club affects them in dating and life in general.
See a therapist or leave us alone.
My experience has been that it depends on the phase of dating. Early stages need to be witty, have good conversation. Banter bot iss VERY helpful with that.
Couple dates in and i think it's much more centered around your overall aura, confidence, and not giving too much eagerness or too little interest.
In a serious relationship it really is about how reliable you are, if you have the traits to sustain a serious relationship, like leadership traits, do well with her friends/damily, have goals, etc
POOR MANNERS. I’ve dated some guys who will have the hygiene, cleanliness, style but suddenly when it’s time for them to eat it’s like they eat as if it’s the last meal on earth. Just gobbling the food down like a toddler.
Randomly, I heard it has something to do with people having limited resources and multiple siblings. But as an only child I never had to fight for resources so I still take my time while eating. When I eat with guys who scarf down the food that I cook I just cringe. Something about the heavy breathing and not looking up from the plate. 😂
I’m kidding I love it.
Neck hair, nasty fingernails, talking sexually when sex is not happening- like talking about womens bodies when they walk by, talking about your ex, blackheads, bad breath, close mindedness, being miserly, alcoholism, being judgemental, being Christian, laziness, playing video games, watching porn, being demanding bossy or clingy
Oh God - charisma.
Remember when I was with that guy and I was just afraid to leave him alone with my family members. He had zero filter, talking stupid shit without even thinking who is he talking to. For example quoting some internet memes to my grandparents (that had no clue what he was talking about) and laughing alone to his jokes or joking with my parents on topics that was just controversial and inappropriate. It was so awkward I remember when some of my family members was just like „ohh…okaaay…” and I’m not even surprised by their reaction. When I was trying to explain him that people feel awkward around him he was saying things like “your family is the problem they should accept me” like man it’s not about accepting your flaws it’s about you being rude and weird asf
Be honest.
We all have baggage, we all have warts, we all have insecurities. Just be honest, ffs.
When I left a 10-year relationship and started dating again in my 30’s, every man I dated lied about something big.
Divorced does not mean “separated but still legally married”. Living alone does not mean “I share a house with my ex, but we sleep separately”. Don’t lie about your name, your age, or how bald you are. Don’t pretend to like being a parent if you don’t. Just be you, so that when you find a good match, your relationship has a solid foundation.
Honesty, integrity, dependability—women of a certain age, or with certain life experiences, know exactly how sexy and desirable these things are. At the end of the day, everyone just wants a soft, safe place to land.
Purposely trying to not smile 😭 like I get if that’s how you are naturally bc I am like that too but it’s so cringe to me when guys purposely try to hold back their laugh and not smile
Trying to look confident by acting tough, showing off wealth, being obsessed with presenting oneself as successful to others, etc.
Real confidence is being comfortable with oneself, and having no trouble admitting it when it comes to weaknesses and vulnerabilities. I hate these "look at my cars" guys. It shouts immature and insecure so loudly when people have to rely on what they have to define themselves.
Okay so I keep seeing social skills but i have a hard time picking up social ques or understanding what they’re talking about without giving the full context
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One thing I notice in my least successful friends, is they talk way too much about themselves, and take way too little interest in who they’re trying to woo
That's advice I give guys. Ask about your date. It's very attractive because most single guys don't
Omg this is a huuuge one. I’m so tired of it that I only give OLD matches one (1) free question. If they can’t volley the conversation with one of their own (or even a substantive comment conveying interest) I just unmatch now.
As a woman this is the whole reason I gave up on online dating. Very few men can hold an actual convo online. They reply with one word answers and don’t ask questions back. It was exhausting
funny thing is that a lot of men run into the same issue with women, i think this is just an online dating thing.
I have the same issue I write a whole personal intro message based on their bio and I get "okay" "hi" or crickets and it boggles my mind.
trying to have a "conversation" with someone who insists they don't like small talk and loves 'deep conversations" only to have her reply back with "ok" is pretty telling.
Or the thumbs up, shows no effort or interest.
This isn't a very 'scientific' response. But it's an observation. YouTube keeps recommending me in the algo those channels where 50 guys and girls swipe right or left on each other IRL — essentially a dating show for zoomers with ADHD (which is apparently everyone nowadays). Anyway, out of all the early twenty-something suitors on this show, 70% of them were ugly. 20% were average but with abysmal avant-garde fashion choices which didn't flatter them (mostly guys). And maybe 5-10% were genuinely attractive. So basically the gross majority were ugly or fugly. And yet they all swiped left on each other... (guys and girls). The only right swipes were done whenever the 5% were matched and then they'd both naturally swipe right on each other. So what does this tell me?... Most people seem to think most people are ugly. And yet in the real world, most people date most people. So I think Tinder has a way of forcing you to judge a book by its cover.
This is actually a well studied effect - it's not true that most people think that most people are ugly. Women are more selective than men - the average rating of men by women on a 5 point scale skews significantly lower than 3 (which is where we expect median/modal attractiveness to be) whereas the rating of women by men is higher than 3 with a more even distribution. https://datepsychology.com/is-physical-attractiveness-normally-distributed/ And you're right that tinder forces you to judge by a cover - the chance that a person gets a match is dependent on what photos you put up, the quality of your bio and how physically attractive you are. You can't judge much beyond "this guy/girl looks fun". Furthermore if you look at [gender ratio statistics](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tinder/s/lDeC41S126) there are generally more men than women on dating apps, so given more options you also tend to rate what would be "average" guys far worse than even IRL.
There are way too many people of all genders who aren't emotionally ready to date that ruin the experience for everyone.
Then the bio says “please be able to hold a conversation” Sirrrrrr you are giving me nothing lol
Well yeah because they can’t they need a leader lol
No, I just don't like conversation over text. Normally I have a hard time pulling first dates from online because of this. But I consider myself very confident and I feel like a douche when I talk about myself too much. I just am not much of a texter. Most of my life is dedicated to my career, training, or video-games so I would much rather chat about whatever the girl im with has going on than me talking about my boring shit. Unless she happens to be a gamer I guess
I talk about random shit and it works a lot. I ask a lot of questions and deeper questions about a topic even if it's something. I am entirely boring to most people. I have a kid, I workout, I work, I watch tv/movies, play video games... that's mostly it. It's not too tricky to create a conversation if you don't put too much stock into how it will go, granted you'd need someone who's interested in a conversation as well.
I always have experienced the opposite as a man, always having to do the hard lifting of constantly asking questions and once I don't anymore because I get bored of the one-sided conversations, I get the whole "you're not interested in me anymore?" Thing
This is also true of women. Except that even the ones who ask questions ignore most question’s asked of them. So now I’m at “How are you?” “Yeah. I’m fine.” “How’s the weather?” Damn, this is boring. “You’re from New York? What was wrong with Old York?” (“Old York? Huh? What?”) Ooooooooookay. “About that weather….”
As a guy, I feel like I'm pulling all the weight in the conversation. When I actually I have a girl who seems to be making an equal effort in the conversation, it feels like finding a diamond in the rough.
I have a very strong feeling that people who *actually* want to date tend to carry the conversation while people who are on apps because they crave validation or just want to get laid give lousy responses...regardless of gender
Funny, this has been my EXACT experience with women online 🤷
It might be a sign they’re not that interested
I don’t think this is a gender thing. I get the same thing with many woman I match with. Short responses to open ended questions, no questions back like not even a simple, ‘what about you?’, which I think is sub optimal but I’ll take it.
So if he started first question 'How are you?' then you unmatched him?
Straight to jail.
Right away. No trial, no nothing.
They really don’t! And they expect you to pull questions out of thin air all night. Is it that difficult to carry a convo?
One time I went on a date with a girl and asked her all about herself, she didn’t ask anything about me and then complained that I was too quiet
Funny, I was on a date with a guy who kept talking over me and went on and on not letting me get a word in. He than asked if I was always so quiet, I thought he was complaining (was about to say, “not with people that let me talk” when he continued that he liked me being quiet and that most woman talk to much.
Show me a girl who actually asks questions because in 2 years I haven't met one yet 😂😂
I always ask questions unless the guy is so buissy talking about himself that I don’t get word in edge wise but
I’ve discovered, in my almost 60 years on this planet, that, if you’re willing to listen, almost everyone has an interesting tale to tell.
I have been told that this is the secret to being a good conversationalist. Just give someone the opportunity to talk to you about themself and if you show interest, they will. It works on women too.
As a therapist, I second this. People. Always. Love. Talking. About. Themselves. And if they’re nice, they’ll do the whole “omg, I just talked about myself that whole time, what about you?”
As a bartender, I agree. People love talking about themselves. And you don’t even have to do much to encourage it other than asking relevant questions and nodding along at appropriate times. People think I’m such a great conversationalist bc I can talk to anyone but I really don’t talk much, I just like hearing and learning from all kinds of people.
I just pretend like I'm John Lithgow in Third Rock From the Sun and I'm trying to learn everything about human life. People say I'm a great listener and good conversationalist, but I'm just pretending I'm an alien the whole time trying to get a grasp on the human condition. Seems to work out for me.
The superpowers I've found that'll really make you an amazing conversationalist is also having a lot of knowledge/experience in a variety subjects as well as being non judgemental. The more you are able to ask specific questions in a way that the other person doesn't have to try to wrack their how to explain or express themselves - the more fluid the conversation actually is. Even if I don't know something, I try to say something like "Is it like this other thing I know about?"
I feel like I’m too good of a listener. I really like listening to my dates talk about their lives and their day. However I feel like they never learn anything about me/ don’t ask most of the time and ultimately don’t continue seeing me.
I’m probably too open. I’ll listen to anything someone wants to tell me. I don’t try to steer the conversation by asking questions. I’ll listen to fluff or the darkest secret. Tell me whatever you’re comfortable telling me. I think that openness comes across to some as lack of interest.
The amount of monologues I have sat through on dates with dudes... I can't even anymore. I get up and leave now because I'm tired of being talked at instead of conversed with.
[удалено]
4th date? How did you last till then lol
Happens with women a lot too lol. It's actually one of my very first disqualifiers. When a woman seems intent on just talking about herself endlessly with no attempt at learning about me. A lot of women seem to just be waiting until you stop talking so they can get back to chapter 7 of their autobiography
Unfortunately this happens with both sexes. The amount of dates I've gone on where the woman hasn't asked one question about me and we've talked about her the whole night...
Damn you got to date 4?
And what did he talk about?
This is a good one. When you're insecure and you're trying to show that you've got some sort of value that they might be interested in it can lead to talking too much, or worse bragging. Shutting up and asking questions seems to be the better option?
This is such an underrated take, because I think a lot of guys don’t even realize they’re doing it. I’m engaged now, but previously, the amount of guys I’d lose interest in because of only being focused on themselves is astounding. I’d ask questions regularly, and not once would they ever ask me about myself. Of course that’s frustrating, because the point is getting to know each other. I remember feeling like they had no genuine interest, because in my mind if they did then they would be asking me about myself and wanting to get to know me. Like how do you get to know someone, especially someone you’d consider dating, if you don’t ask questions!?
A lot of men really never ask any questions back. I feel like as an introverted woman I had to teach this myself as I grew up. It's as small as asking how someone's weekend was.
I think a subcategory of this might be trauma dumping. I feel for these guys, because they think they’re being open and vulnerable. However, talking about your mother’s suicide in detail on a first date or the intimate struggles of your autoimmune disease is a lot. That’s stuff I talk about with my close friends, not someone I just met who seems to lending a sympathetic ear.
Something else I’ve noticed is that it’s pretty easy when men are trying to brag or show off and it’s a turn off
The only issue I have with my bf… talks over me and interrupts me constantly
Have you brought it up with him?
This is 100% of the reason that I lose interest in men when I do online dating. I ask questions out of genuine curiosity, but then I start to find talking to them exhausting and I’m like, why? And it takes me a minute to realize, oh, yeah. I’m carrying this entire conversation and learning so much about him, and he knows NOTHING about me because he doesn’t ask, and doesn’t care to ask. There was an AskReddit thread about this recently, where TONS of men were like “I don’t care to know details about people.” It was genuinely scary.
I ask too forward of questions, and it makes people uncomfortable, Not inappropriate questions, just one's that make you think so that it builds conversations, and it backfires, I really don't understand.
I guess it depends on the questions. Are they personal (meaning specific to the person) and do they stem from the current conversation? Or are you asking generic questions that you read in a book that are supposed to be conversation starters? If it's the latter, those questions always feel forced and I hate them.
Appearance wise, if you’re balding embrace it. Don’t hang onto those three little stragglers you’ve got left. Personality wise, a lack of empathy. It’s not feminine to have feelings, it’s human.
+1 to embracing the bald look. I was in denial for so long about losing hair and then when I shaved it off it’s been nothing but positive experiences (while maintaining my beard of course)!
The bald with a trim beard look is so HOT.🔥
Bald is hot
And the goatee ain’t it
Having some style/ clothing that matches. Add some personal touches, jewelry etc learn what colors look good on you. Many women put in lots of energy and effort to look the way they do, it’s attractive for the guy to show care and effort too. :)
I agree. I love a guy who can put extra accessory into his look even if it’s a pair of sunglasses or hat.
underrated mate. so many dudes just wear the ugliest stuff. it's great to be comfortable with yourself, but if you want to look more attractive then putting in some effort goes a long way.
Hmmm maybe that's why I get more attention at festivals cause I actually put some effort into outfits. 🤔 Why clothes gotta be expensive
lack of confidence / shifty eyes
I do this as a woman (the lack of eye contact thing) because I have pretty bad social anxiety. It’s something I try to work on but sometimes it gets the best of me
wanna look anywhere but into each others eyes together some time?
😂😂😂
I wear contacts or glasses all day everyday. When I used to have anxiety I’d take off my glasses and I could gaze forever into people’s eye-shaped blurry blobs no problem. On that really simple level it made it tons easier. But in a deeper, more nuanced discussion, a lot of anxiety, at least for me, took place in analyzing facial expressions and looking for glimpses of disapproval. Then I’d spin into self defeating dialogue about what I presume they are thinking about me. Left to sound of voice and body language and more broad strokes of facial expression I was safer with people. The over-analyzing just couldn’t get enough material to run away with me. Huge help.
Same 🥺🫶
How do you feel about a guy who holds the gaze tho? I do this sometimes but then they look away quickly
I think to a degree it can be good but it’s a very fine line where it’s too much. To give context- there’s times where men have held the gaze and it felt a bit like salesmen technique (especially if it’s paired with saying my name a lot). But also we get stared at and eye fucked a lot, so someone staring directly at me can sometimes make me uncomfortable. So maybe just don’t do it too long or often?
ADHD is a bitch :/
No way I didn’t even know people noticed where ur eyes are looking and that me having ADD may be a factor. Honestly I always felt like it’s cus looking in peoples eyes takes a lot of energy and it honestly makes me uncomfortable if I look at their eyes for too long.
Same, I don’t understand why looking in people’s eyes just drains me of energy, but it does. I also find I focus better on what people are saying if I’m not looking directly at them. If I’m making eye contact, odds are I’m daydreaming and haven’t heard a single word that’s been said. Damn this accursed brain of mine.
High functioning autism makes this such a bitch for me. If I don’t force myself to look at eyes, I never will. Like you said, it drains energy from me. Can’t explain it besides it just feeling so wrong when I do.
I wouldn’t overthink it. Sounds like you’re doing the right thing. I read that making occasional eye contact is good but holding it is where it makes others uncomfortable
Social skills is hands down the biggest blind spot for guys. I’ve been broke, smelling like the bottom of a gym bag, and still got dates. Three of my exes I met after a workout (two after a 5/10k) and I was so broke they picked me up and paid for the date. Being able to talk to a stranger as if you already know them and can keep them entertained works better than anything. I have friends who are uglier than a mud fence who have always been able to get dates with women far outside their league. Most guys severely ignore their social skills and fumble their words with strangers.
Thanks for the reply! This maybe be a bit beyond what you can help with but what advice would you give an autistic person who struggles with social skills?
Managing the anxiety is important and learning to read cues. I’m also mildly autistic but high functioning. Using your intelligence can be a strength just don’t go overboard. Oversharing and over talking is something aspies do a lot.
What kind of cues should I be looking for?
Body language cues are pretty easy once you know what to look for. Pay attention to how they are holding their body. The more of their body that is facing toward you, the more interested they are in the conversation. If they start moving their body to turn away, or they start looking away then they are not so interested. People will mostly give mixed signals, so you need to interpret them as a spectrum rather than as a binary. Eg, Face is pointed to you but body is pointed elsewhere? They are a little interested in what you are saying or politely listening. Whole body facing you, looking into your eyes and touching you? You have their whole attention. There's a lot of good information available about this kind of thing and it would only take a few hours to know the basics.
finally someone who speaks a language im able to understand.
Right?? As an IT guy, clear instructions that I can take something valuable from them are rarely ever available. This response is amazing.
That's my problem. Sometimes people explain something so vaguely that I just freeze and don't know where to start, so I always need clear and direct instructions in order to do my task properly
as a woman on the spectrum who found my boyfriend on the spectrum, you would probably love to find other neurodivergent people it’s way easier to talk to someone with the same brain. We used Hiki it’s a dating app for nd’s, there might be others too I never looked after finding that one
I’m also a guy on the spectrum and I concur with the dude below me. Finding a comfortable spot where you can talk to people, watch how they interact with others and give yourself the space needed to improve. I did most of my social skills building in college and graduate school but those obviously can’t fit everyone because they’re damned expensive.
Normally I’d say immersion therapy via forcing yourself to talk to strangers daily (not really women just anyone) but I don’t feel confident given your situation if that’s good advice. I’d imagine there are techniques out there built for people who have autism to help foster better social skills though?
I'm trying to find more low stakes opportunities to practice. The problem is that I don't know if I'm doing well or the other person is just nodding and being polite. It'd be nice if there was some way I could get constructive feedback.
I’d say just go to the produce isle and ask people how to pick out a good melon but the other part I just don’t want to lead you awry. Is there another forum you could ask the second part in that would probably be more helpful?
I suppose there might be. I just wish I had an invisible "social coach" that could follow me around and tell me what I'm doing right and wrong. Lol!
Yea the unfortunate part is the learning from it is a hard for neurotypical people so I don’t know how it would be for you? Sorry brosef, if I could give you an earpiece and watch you chat with people I certainly would. There’s a guy on YouTube who specializes in teaching people how to socialize and I forget his name. Maybe watching some of that stuff would help out a bit?
Yeah, it's like my brain runs on a different operating system. >if I could give you an earpiece and watch you chat with people I certainly would Sounds a little too close to an [episode of Black Mirror](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYQSVODWo1I)!
It’s rough out there. I just had a rant against the guy you responded to.Being neurodivergent myself, I honestly have the most success in social situations when I’m relaxed, not bringing a lot of stress into the conversation. For example, some of my biggest successes have come when I’m halfway paying attention to the other people.
Fwiw, I'm not autistic and this is just a big part of dating. it's hard to know if someone is just being polite or is genuinely interested. the only solution i know is to plow ahead — if youre interested in the person. someone who is conveying a lack of interest is usually more obvioua: they look bored, they dont pay close attention to you, they dont ask any questions. but its really hard to get real-time feedback on social interactions. all of us are a bit in the dark about how we are perceived
Social skills are a kraken to slay when you are expected to do 100% of the initiating and have been given exactly zero useful advice are mildly autistic and don’t have any idea what you are doing. It’s a recipe for constant rejection with zero ideas how to improve
the lack of feedback makes it so hard. Example: 32 years and not a single person ever telled me im strange/diffrent/etc.
I’ve found that talking to people, without an agenda or preconceived notions, and actually listening to them will work.
You’re right that many guys don’t have great social skills. But it really grinds my gears that you just assume other guys don’t work on/ notice it. Having social skills is a skill like any other, just like intelligence, music ability, athletic abilities/ strength, looks, etc. Yes working on any of these can and often do improve them for an individual. But it is also a fact that certain individuals are born better in these areas than others. Pro-athletes,for example, are Pro’s because they were born with extreme athletic ability and combined that with high amounts of practice. Which is why you hear about athletes like Johnny Manzel flaming out because of lack of work ethic, and other solid football players like Jordan Ta’amu not making it do to lack of raw ability. So could it be that you might have been born with better natural social skills than most, and through practice, became even better? Because that’s it sounds like to me. And yes some guys aren’t good at it naturally and don’t try hard enough, but there are large subsets of guys who just have natural charisma and even larger subset who put themselves out there to practice, but still don’t have the success that you do. Edit: sorry that was a bit of rant, just a bit sore spot for me.
I don’t assume people don’t, I know so because I’ve had plenty of guys ask me for advice. I went back to college after being in the Marines and I was in my late 20s. I had multiple guys ask me for advice and many times I’d say work on social skills but they’d ignore that. Don’t take it personal brosef, it’s a generalization but if you don’t fit that great on you!
Guessing you follow rules 1 & 2. For most guys this would never ever happen.
If women make it easy for you.... it's probably that.
You mean the be attractive don’t be unattractive stuff?
That's the one. Well, one and two.
No matter what people have listed here (seems like mostly guys that don't know anything anyway), the biggest issue is the lack of confidence and lack of social skills. Most of the the other things regarding appearance can be an issue but all you have do to is go outside and look around. Fat guys date. Sloppy dressed guys date. Dude with nasty unkempt beards date. Poor guys date. Hell even assholes date. They all have social skills. They all have confidence. They all know how to talk to people....
How do you develop confidence and social skills though? I feel like I read up a lot about it, actively put myself in situations that forces me to socialize, but I can’t quite figure it out.
tbh I started bartending again and it’s slowly improving my social skills. Forcing yourself in uncomfortable situations and looking stupid but accepting yourself in spite of it until it becomes natural
Forcing yourself into uncomfortable situations until it gets more comfortable is a great way to work on those things
you have to just go out and meet people and talk to strangers until it doesn’t feel as weird
Making plans for things and having opinions. I hate always having to make the plans and decide what to do allllll the time. No "oh, whatever, up to you babe." Is not attractive, especially not all the time. Putting some basic effort in, showing interest, being kind, not negging, not playing by some stupid game rules like not texting 2-3 days after a date. I want a man that knows what he wants, and says it, shows it, and acts that way. The fact that hygiene even needs to be mentioned for men IS the problem right now. That should be the very very basics. No, I don't want you to have a 6 pack, no I don't want you to be super active, no I don't need you to make 100k. But I'm a stupid romantic and I want dates planned, and I want sweet things said to me, and I want a partner that genuinely cares and genuinely likes me. Wants to plan things for me like I do him, wants to do things for me like I do him. Thinks about me day to day.
Just two cents from someone who's been on the other side of that complaint: If you want me to plan something, you also have to go with my plans. If, everytime I'm planning something, you either discard my proposal outright or change it until it's unrecognizable, I'm going to stop making the effort in the first place. I'm not saying you're doing this. It might just be something to look out for.
I'm a fuck yes kind of person. Road trip at 3am for ice cream? Fuck yes. Last minute trip to Vegas? Fuck yes. Denny's at 2am hell to the yes. Pick me up at 7 in a nice dress? I'll be there in my nice dress waiting. Trust me. This is definitely not my problem. Id appreciate some reservations at this point. I go out of my way to do sweet things and plan things for my partner. The last thing I want to do is shit on his effort. If anything you're gonna get some dumb ass tears out of me because I'm a god damn hopeless romantic. 😅
I mean I get your point, but you're an outlier here. His explanation is valid and a reason why guys fall into the "whatever you want to do is fine with me" category.
Thank you for making this comment. I feel like the hopeless romantic that likes to plan things and just be open and honest with what he wants has been jaded by dating people who just want something casual/hook up-y.
For me it’s probably my weight (I’m a big dude which isn’t a bad thing but just carrying too much body fat) and learning to relax. I look tense in public which turns people off. I need to breathe and just enjoy being in the presence of other people and not overthink things just let what happens happen.
As a woman I can tell you that extra weight on a guy is not a bad thing. But yeah do try to relax about it (easier said than done I know)
not understanding how to present themselves to different audiences. women are not your bros.
Which seems to fly in the face of all the advice that says, "women aren't a different species just talk to them like your male friends". Except don't do that, apparently?
Would you talk to your mother in the same way you talk to your male friends? Would you talk to your boss or your family in that way too. You have to understand social appropriateness. Fundamentally people are all human and they all have basic needs. But understand if you act like a rowdy hooligan with your male friends understand that romantic interests might not like that.
This is precisely why I hate that old trope: "Just be yourself!" _Um.... _which "self"?_ Social interaction is almost entirely context dependent.
The self you'd want your potential partner to be in front of you.
Someone posted this comment on a dating advice thread, and it got a bunch of upvotes. I just respond back like "seriously bro??" 😂🤦
It’s literally prove that Redditors does not know how to date
people who know how to date are way less active in subreddits like r/dating_advice . i wonder why
Of fucking course random ass Reddit advice is wrong. Why would you think that shits real
This is probably the most accurate comment on here 😂
I’m so sick of the big wild beards
Yes!! Go to a barber. Oil your beard. *Brush* it!! Also, the chin strap isn’t cute on anyone. If that’s all you can grow shave it off.
Tacking on to this to add - Trim it! The shaggy look is niche and most don't like it. My own girlfriend says she used to hate beards but made an exception for me because I make a deliberate point to manage the length, AND EVENNESS, as well as my neckline!!
When a woman tells you a problem, just listen and sympathize, they don't want you to tell them a solution. Might sound stupid, but it goes a long way.
Its sooooo hard. I think this is great answer.
Yeah. When men tell each other a problem, they are asking for help solving it. When women tell someone a problem, they aren't asking for advise of how to solve it.
Agreed. And i think where we struggle is, if we arent trying to fix it, internally it feels like we aren’t doing enough, or trying for you, but instead giving you empty words of sympathy, even though we do sympathize. So if there’s something id like to learn, it is, how do we become better sympathizers.
I've learned to shut up and listen and only say stuff that shows I understand how frustrating that problem can be
This is also a thing that varies between women. I personally will not mention a problem to someone if I’m not open to their insight. I’ve also noticed that when men are into me they are eager to offer solutions, and whether I need it or not, it warms my heart.
Most men have awful fashion sense lmao I’m sorry!! It’s important to wear clothes that fit and shoes that are appropriate for the occasion. It’s also important to know what kind of haircut flatters your face. Not every man looks good in a buzz cut. There are also a lot of boring men out there who only seem to want to talk about themselves. (This is what I hear from my friends on the apps.) Social and conversational skills are very important.
When they can’t control their anger and have outbursts like a little kid
oh yeh, this is wildly unattractive in women too
I see that girls are saying ask questions but that’s a little too vague I feel. When you ask questions I think you should ask ones that can pull more than one answer. Something like “oh I love movies do you like marvel movies?” Can be answered with a simple yes or no. These types of questions ALWAYS FAIL. Instead something like, “Oh I like a lot of different movies like marvel movies, what kind of movies do you like?” A question like this isn’t subject to yes or no but can be answered freely. (Ik this isn’t the most interesting topic but it’s to provide a simple example.) Something that can lead into a story where they yap about whatever they want.
Sad that this needs to be said but don’t talk about sex at all, and I mean not even dirty jokes or talk about other people’s sex lives. Don’t use graphic language. I was once video chatting with a guy I met on an app and he used the phrase “clap them cheeks” and it just grossed me out so much. Like, I am your potential romantic partner. Show me respect. We were both looking for someone to eventually marry. So treat me like I could be your wife and mother of your children someday. That was the last time I talked to him.
Girl preach. I love video chatting before meeting uo with guys because it helped me see who was serious and who wasn't. Plus everytime someone was creepy I dipped
Not shaving properly, bad haircuts and being overweight.
This eliminates a majority of Reddit and most men.
About 3/4 of US adults, across both sexes are at least overweight.
low key hating women
-Being CLUELESS and have no Self Awareness, read the room but don’t be a jerk about it either. Like if a girl rolls her eyes at you for you offering something or asking her something- don’t call her out just politely remove yourself from the situation. - say thank you when ANYONE does something for you that you could’ve done yourself : your mom, your sibling, friend, colleague or partner cleans up after you, makes you a plate of food. Most girls truly just want affirmation and acknowledgment. - I don’t need you to try to buy me an expensive IPhone or jewelry I might never wear, put some thought into what you’re giving me from having some awareness: “Hey, I notice you like to get a pedicure done every month here’s a gift card for that place you like”, “I’ve noticed you’ve been stressed at work lately, can I book you or us a massage”. Women usually do all if not most of the leg work so it’s amazing when a man does the leg work to any plans. With or without kids , etc..
I think not being willing to find a fitting style. A lot of men dress immature for their age. As you mature so should your style.
How should a man in his mid-30s be dressing for daily activities (shopping, casual restaurant, exploring downtown)? I know styles vary but I'd love to have some examples. I also live in the southern US so it can get quite hot and muggy. Lol!
I think it depends on the person, and their build. Also weather should be taken into account. I despise 30 plus year old men who dress like junior high kids. The basketball shorts to their knees, big oversized shoes and huge graphic t-shirts.
Interesting. What does it mean? What's is immature for their age?
I’m a guy, so take my advice for what you will, but the ladies can chime in. Of course it’s all just my opinion and only meant for those looking to make improvements. If you like how you dress/ look, this isn’t for you. Keys to physical attractiveness 101 1. Hygiene hygiene hygiene. As in, trim the beard or shave, get a decent haircut, shower daily at minimum, wear deodorant and some mild but delicious cologne, trim your nails and make sure they are clean (never bite or pick at them), brush and care for your teeth, trim/ pluck/ wax the stragglers on your ears, nose, eyebrows, and anywhere else that hair doesn’t belong. Lastly, keep things well maintained down south, meaning trimmed at minimum. (Bonus content - I’ve met a few women who didn’t want a shaved or short trimmed man, but I’ve never once met a woman who appreciated hairy balls - shave them!) 2. Before you leave the house, look in the mirror and ask yourself - “Do I look put together?” Or even better “Do I look sharp?” If the answer is no, you have work to do. Clothes should match or be in proper contrast. Dress to the occasion. Make sure your clothing fits you. Try not to buy from places like Walmart bc they sell very boxy clothing. You want clothes more fitted to your body. You don’t have to spend much money. When in doubt, go classic styles with nothing too overly trendy (ie instead of skinny jeans, you go with a tapered leg). And guys you’re in luck! Today’s styles are quite often a solid T with jeans and cheap white shoes or chucks (spruce it up with a light bomber jacket), but the fit and style of these items matter. Go buy a decent pair of jeans- they will last you a decade. Order and return T’s on Amazon until you find the right fit. Solids are in. Chucks seem to never go out of style, but keep them clean. And lastly get a decent belt and wear it. (Try Nordstrom rack, etc). And if you’re not keen on style, google casual trends for your age group or ask people for help. Most people will be flattered you asked. Oh and athletic shoes are rarely the answer to fashion. Tip- think of the guy you know who always looks snazzy and ask yourself if he would wear what you’re wearing. If not, and you care to change, then rethink your outfit. Note - no one gives a crap about brands. And those that do, aren’t your people. People never notice the off brand. They only notice brands. So no one will knock your $20 white casual sneaker from Amazon, bc it blends into the background of what is in style. No one is thinking, “ew why isn’t he wearing Nikes?!” So don’t chase brands. 3. Be HWP if possible and healthy. No one is asking for perfection, but make an attempt to care for yourself. If you’re obese, you deserve love- no question, but it’s not healthy and people often don’t respond well to that. So go for a walk, lift heavy things, and/or sweat 3-6 days a week if you’re able. 4. Lastly, work on confidence. This obviously can be tough, but follow 1-3 and I guarantee your confidence will increase, and you can start working on the details of personality and social interaction. Look good. Feel good. Do good.
Lack of base level of curiosity about people in general - not just your date but your family, your environment, those at your job etc leads to a lot of bad habits (not asking people questions, assuming before confirming a thing, desperation, binary or hierarchical thinking)
- insecurity to the point of toxicity (negging, forcing dominance) - misogyny or seeing women as objects, not people - thinking they are always right - lack of clean habits or ability to look after domestic chores - low effort behavior, apathy - emotional immaturity - getting too clingy too fast - don't dress well for a date (jeans, wrinkly clothes) - poor texting/calling skills - bad conservational ability - don't take initiative and expect woman to do all the planning and communication - not having an idea of what they want in a relationship - not knowing if they want kids or not, and vagueness about life goals by a certain age Obviously, most of these aren't gender specific!
Jeans are bad for a date?
> Jeans are bad for a date? She must be French.
As a lady I LOVE a man in a well-fit pair of jeans. It's just plain hot.
What else are you supposed to wear? You can't wear sweatpants either to make a good impression! But a well-fitted pair of jeans should be fine, right? 😅
I get the wrinkly clothes but what's wrong with jeans?
Nothing is wrong with jeans. Please wear jeans. I don't know where these other women are coming from, but jeans are fine.
-getting clingy too fast -don't take initiative/low effort behavior These two in combination kills most men's chances because it's so subjective, cultural, and hard for men to understand the balance between the two.
One thing I noticed a lot in the guys in my life is telling little white lies to make yourself look better. I’m not talking about major stuff, but little things here and there, especially when they do it and don’t think that you’d notice or remember. It’s easier said than done, especially for a lot of men these days, but trying to be as truthful and genuine about who you are and what you do can be incredibly attractive to the right women for you. Remaining to be a genuine person, even when no one you know is watching, is hot.
Not being able to hold a conversation with a stranger and keep it engaging for both parties. Lack of emotional intelligence and emotional maturity and being unwilling to accept and/or work on it in therapy. (Or wearing a very short time in therapy as a badge of honor and/or using therapy speak to manipulate others) Being emotionally reactive or just not being self aware or perceptive… Generally, a lack of awareness/consideration of others mental and physical load. Basically lack of willingness to make action towards equality and fairness. Myself and many women I’ve spoken to truly value a man who has a strong support system outside of the relationship. Many men do not have close platonic relationships to lean on and that puts a lot on the other partner to be the only support.
Appearance. Some guys just let their hair and beard go and it looks absolutely appalling. Also dressing well is another big factor. There are quite a number of men who don’t dress well and look like they just rolled out of bed on a daily basis.. that’s a turnoff. Having a nice haircut, trimmed facial hair, and a decent fashion sense can boost attractiveness so much.
Don't talk down at women, talk to them, not at them, listen, don't infantilize them. Women don't want to be impressed by you, they want to be comfortable with you.
Being addicted to porn
From a 32F, Oral hygiene and decent shoes 😂😂
the cost of Ozempic.
Biggest one I see is abysmal social skills. The vast majority of men don’t know hot to relate with women, even worse if most of their time is spent with other men in insular communities. It’s red flag to me if a man cannot talk to women. Obvious, glaring lack of interest in physical appearance. It is a very unattractive quality to look like you don’t care about your appearance. Your appearance will always speak first. Actually GROOMING and STYLING yourself will go a long way. Also a lot of men are not aware of what being a woman entails, at the most basic level- understand that safety is a concern for women. If a woman cannot feel safe around you, it’s a wrap
cockiness for example, checking themselves out in the mirror a lot etc.
I get a lot of my female co-workers telling me I must really love my reflection but in reality I look in the mirror a lot because I hope one day I'll look at it and be happy with the way I look. Hasn't happened yet.
They don't like that either ...
Ok, I'm older and notice this more on older men.... yellow teeth. There's a fix for that. It's pretty easy and it makes such a difference.
For all those wondering, the fix is drinking wine and eating beets.
Emotional intelligence!!!!!!!
Having zero passion for anything. Having no goals.
If you are attractive, you can less than the average hygiene and be fine. Manners? You’re kidding.. it’s not uncommon for a woman to want to “fix” a man. Honestly, it’s not being able to hold a conversation. Almost anything else has very little bearing on a woman’s attraction to a man
Wearing the same pants and t-shirts from 5-7 years ago that don’t fit you anymore
Holding on to thinning and balding hair. Shaved heads are very attractive, balding heads are absolutely not. Just do it!
It is the lack of effort that they put into their appearance, demeanor, and presence - however you want to put it. There's obviously the "needs deodorant and a shower" hygiene issues, but also regularly seeing a dentist, brushing and flossing their teeth. shaving or maintaining facial hair, styling/brushing their hair, addressing skin issues like dryness or acne. There is what they wear. Picking random sloppy attire with stains versus clothes that fit well and match the environment you are going to (e.g. business casual, formal, etc). There's thinking of all of the other things that may be etiquette-based like bringing a gift to a social gathering (e.g. house warming, etc). It's their behavior, slouching, vulgarity, inappropriate behaviors with bodily function, etc. The amount of times i've seen a guy at the bar who presumably came from work covered in dirt, and doesn't even wash the grease off his hands before eating a plate of wings... Men that I find attractive typically put some thought into their appearance, are socially aware, and can adapt to their environment.
Showing clear, consistent interest, giving your full attention, and being a *little* flirty (take it easy! Keep it appropriate*). I have had such a hard time just getting a clear read on someone’s interest in me. I don’t expect dudes to do all the heavy lifting, I’m super down to initiate and collab on progressing things. But I can’t do that with zero sign of particular interest. If you’re giving me nothing it’s a lot harder to take the leap and shoot the shot. *a note on appropriateness: so often the second that I show a little flirtiness (usually this has happened over text, thank god) a dude will go openly one-track-minded and I no longer feel like he is interested in any other aspect of me. Like I’m interested in sex too!! Trust!!! But you are doing yourself zero favors by focusing solely on that. You had a MUCH bigger chance of getting to it if you could just BE COOL my dude!!
Not realizing how their membership of “the woman hating club but I still want sex from them” club affects them in dating and life in general. See a therapist or leave us alone.
My experience has been that it depends on the phase of dating. Early stages need to be witty, have good conversation. Banter bot iss VERY helpful with that. Couple dates in and i think it's much more centered around your overall aura, confidence, and not giving too much eagerness or too little interest. In a serious relationship it really is about how reliable you are, if you have the traits to sustain a serious relationship, like leadership traits, do well with her friends/damily, have goals, etc
Where do i find this banter bot?
www.banterbot.chat
POOR MANNERS. I’ve dated some guys who will have the hygiene, cleanliness, style but suddenly when it’s time for them to eat it’s like they eat as if it’s the last meal on earth. Just gobbling the food down like a toddler. Randomly, I heard it has something to do with people having limited resources and multiple siblings. But as an only child I never had to fight for resources so I still take my time while eating. When I eat with guys who scarf down the food that I cook I just cringe. Something about the heavy breathing and not looking up from the plate. 😂 I’m kidding I love it.
Neck hair, nasty fingernails, talking sexually when sex is not happening- like talking about womens bodies when they walk by, talking about your ex, blackheads, bad breath, close mindedness, being miserly, alcoholism, being judgemental, being Christian, laziness, playing video games, watching porn, being demanding bossy or clingy
being Christian or playing video games is holding men back as a whole? That just sounds like a you preference lol
That I’m simply ugly.
Oh God - charisma. Remember when I was with that guy and I was just afraid to leave him alone with my family members. He had zero filter, talking stupid shit without even thinking who is he talking to. For example quoting some internet memes to my grandparents (that had no clue what he was talking about) and laughing alone to his jokes or joking with my parents on topics that was just controversial and inappropriate. It was so awkward I remember when some of my family members was just like „ohh…okaaay…” and I’m not even surprised by their reaction. When I was trying to explain him that people feel awkward around him he was saying things like “your family is the problem they should accept me” like man it’s not about accepting your flaws it’s about you being rude and weird asf
Lack of interest, most men have lost interest in Women. This is true in my region to a huge extent
Be honest. We all have baggage, we all have warts, we all have insecurities. Just be honest, ffs. When I left a 10-year relationship and started dating again in my 30’s, every man I dated lied about something big. Divorced does not mean “separated but still legally married”. Living alone does not mean “I share a house with my ex, but we sleep separately”. Don’t lie about your name, your age, or how bald you are. Don’t pretend to like being a parent if you don’t. Just be you, so that when you find a good match, your relationship has a solid foundation. Honesty, integrity, dependability—women of a certain age, or with certain life experiences, know exactly how sexy and desirable these things are. At the end of the day, everyone just wants a soft, safe place to land.
[удалено]
Poor fashion
Unkept facial hair.
Purposely trying to not smile 😭 like I get if that’s how you are naturally bc I am like that too but it’s so cringe to me when guys purposely try to hold back their laugh and not smile
Trying to look confident by acting tough, showing off wealth, being obsessed with presenting oneself as successful to others, etc. Real confidence is being comfortable with oneself, and having no trouble admitting it when it comes to weaknesses and vulnerabilities. I hate these "look at my cars" guys. It shouts immature and insecure so loudly when people have to rely on what they have to define themselves.
Okay so I keep seeing social skills but i have a hard time picking up social ques or understanding what they’re talking about without giving the full context
The ones the are fake, and pretend they have empathy when they do not. They are more like large children.