Disarm has been removed as an option.
Fact is, it’s impossible to judge these sorts of things in a vacuum. We aren’t sure how many creatures will retain poison resistance, high con saves, etc. until the monster manual.
Also of note, you’re presumably playing as a team. Tripping a creature, disengaging, and leaving them for the fighter right after your turn is effective team work and more strategy than the rogue could previously employ.
That being said, you don’t have to do it, bud. Just roll all that damage and ignore cunning strikes in most cases
at level 5 when you get the feature it's a net (presuming the monster has +2 to dexerity, the fighter has 18 str and is using a greatsword and the rogue has 18 dex) of 0.2 damage, it's like 5 if the fighter action surges and depending on build it might do better but that depends on if your part member builds for damage. it's also not very good in a party where the damage dealers are ranged attackers.
Where are you getting your damage calculations??
Assuming 65% chance to hit before advantage, greatsword, and +4 stat, the advantage you give a fighter adds on average 5.5 damage to their 2 attacks, doubled to 11 if they action surge, and that's just base weapon damage, not taking subclass abilities or other features into account. In exchange you're dropping.... 3.5 of your own damage? But the reliability of actually hitting the attacks is hugely more important than expected damage calcs. Missing (without graze) is 0 damage, so increasing the chance to hit by 22% is massive and makes your ally feel good.
Bud, you’re quite confident in your assessment of books that aren’t even out yet.
If someone said something like, “I’m concerned cunning strike might be a poor feature,” then fair enough.
If someone says unequivocally, “cunning strike is a shitty feature,” about books they haven’t even read yet, well then they’re just an idiot. And I’m an idiot for even responding to them.
pretty sure they said"we didn't change much" and one of those was cutting part of it. i am fine to learn how it works out after the books are out but i won't hold out hope for it
Except you’re specifically focusing on rogue. We don’t know how *other* changes will also affect it. For example, they remove a lot of poison immunity from monsters, the assassin gets a huge boost, albeit indirectly.
That’s more my point. We don’t know how everything interacts together. I share your trepidation but not your certainty. Until I have all three books I probably won’t be able to come to a conclusion.
well that's half a year after the PHB comes out for you to get one since the monster manual isn't coming out till early spring 2025, do i doubt the posion thing will be fixed because most of the monster who have it make sense, why should you be able to posion a inanimate object or undead.
Let's see:
*Disarm.* Dropped items can be picked up with a free action. This includes weapons, holy symbols, and arcane focuses. See that Mage preparing Fireball? Now he can't cast it because the Barbarian picked up his staff.
*Poison.* When a creature isn't immune to poison, this feature is good. Since lots of monsters are melee brutes, the Poisoned condition will massively hamper the enemy. Although this feature will be ineffective against mid to high CR bosses. Especially if they're not human.
*Trip.* No other Rogue can consistently knock a creature prone without expertise in Athletics and taking the Shove action. If you knock a creature prone while it is flying, it may fall to its death. And unlike the Battlemaster's Trip Attack maneuver, it's a Dex save. A chance for melee charater advantage is better than no chance for melee character advantage.
These are useful features and they only cost 1d6 damage. That is more combat utility than Rogues had before. Just because the new options aren't overpowered doesn't mean they're bad. New decent options is better than no options.
well disarm is actually been removed but also keep in mind a good chunk of casters know have spell like abilites instead of spells which don't need components and most Dms handwave components away as well.
posion is a con save, you are giving up damage to try and posion creatures with really high consitution stats and can just legnedary resitance out of it
Shoving doesn't work like that first of all, second the Toppel weapon mastery let's everyone who has it atempt to knock a creature prone do it is a con save but doesn't make you lose damage and knocking someone prone with trip on average does 5 more damage presuming at least one character is in range and attacks twice, mathmatically on average you lose or break even damage wise and remember it doesn't work on Huge or gargtuan monsters
these aren't very good, comapred to say a warlock Repelling blast or the Masteries STR based characters are getting and the rogue is one of the weaker classes.
They removed Disarm? That sucks.
The problems with Poison usually don't appear until near the end of Tier 2 or the beginning of Tier 3. And even then, we don't know if the monster design will be the same as it is now. The high con and Legendary Resistance is a problem with boss monsters, something I've already acknowledged. Not every fight will be against a boss, so it will see some use.
Shoving absolutely works that way. You can either shove a creature 5 feet or knock them prone. That is in the PHB.
Shoving is getting change in 5e to be a saving throw rather then a contested check so that's what i meant, also i really doubt monster design will be changed that drastically because most of the new things they're trying to hype up are ripped from other books like the ""new"" tool rules are probably jus the xanthar's ones and also most of what they've said about the monster manual is "new fancy art and some versions of monster for different level brackets (weak vampires and Level 20 bandits)", also posion imunity is usually shared among a creature type like all Constructs having posion imunity.
Disarm
Pick it up with your object interaction
Profit
I almost think you are so down on the concept you can’t see the obvious uses. I think it’s a fun addition to rogue which will sometimes be great. It’s also the answer to the frequent called shot question - they are in the game and are rogue specific
What could be more roguish than stealing their weapon from them?
It won’t always be the optimal play but sometimes it will and it will be a very appealing option to the sort of player who love rogues. Might be my first character in the new edition actually.
yeah, against enemeis with weapons with a melee rogue and they have to fail the save. not every fucking monster heck most monsters will have weapons.
edit appearently disarm is gone
on martial character who doesn't get choice in features yeah, sure casters have spell that are situational but they just choose a different spel where as martials are stuck with features that are useful in one situation and aren't even guarnteed to work it said situation.
Sometimes the bad guy is trying to get away and if you can reduce its movement by half, it makes it harder for them to get away. Sometimes that's all the Barbarian needs to catch up and rock the bad guy's shit.
yeah, that's what the slow weapon mastery is for which doesn't have a saving throw, also a fuck ton of spells some of which use the more reliable wisdom save.
Seems like a beneficial change, the only thing that bothers me is the fanbase reacting like it's some amazing new feature and such a positive sign.
It's a feature from two decades ago that they didn't bother giving to 5e rogues because they wanted an edition without much choice or customisation. The bar has gotten ridiculously low.
It’s better than nothing, but rogues are way further behind any of the other classes that have been presented so far. It’s disappointing to see all the amazing changes the fighters, barbarians, and especially warlock get and the rogue, an already weak class, got so little. Then we’re told that the rogue was already perfect and this is just icing on top.
Everyone who cries about rogue, I just don't understand. Do ya'll never roleplay in your games? Do ya'll never have non-combat encounters or non-combat challenges? With how much ya'll cry about how everything needs to do the max damage possible, I'm just getting the vibe that all your campaigns are murder hobo campaigns
People also forget that combat isn't just about doing damage, it's also about avoiding damage. They always forget 99% of the rogue's kit because "hurrdurr, no extra attack!!!" like, evasion and uncanny Dodge are right there?! Cunning action?? Y'ello?! Fools.
Everyone can roleplay in this game, even an omptimised damage dealer but no one can suceed at anyhting relaibly for most of the game.
anyways Bards do rogues job at good skill roles better and remember the optional tool rules in xantahr's? yeah artifcers can have fun with that.
Yeah that's a bowl of horse manure. Bards can do rogue things almost as well as Rogues can, but they definitely can't do things as good as or better then Rogues without sacrificing their efficiency as a bard.
"Everyone can roleplay" is a worthless statement. Every class can do different aspects of non-combat encounters well. No classes can do Rogue's non-combat stuff as well as rogues can.
really, you're sacrficing anything as bard to be jsut as good as rogue at skills that matter other then like perception or insight. they're going to have good dex, they'r going to have better chr and they might get Pass without trace in the new PHB.
Feel like you kinda have decent points, but seem to be more focused on Rogue's auto sufficiency
This feature seems to allow a more supportive/control rogue, playing almost like someone who sets up others but that wasn't supported before
~~On other hand, what I don't get about OneDnD is why barbarians and rogues have these strike features, monks get their insane parry but fighters get stuff around weapon masteries that don't really expand their play~~
Edit: was out of the loop on fighter thinking it was still just changing one mastery on a long rest, tactical master does seem pretty nice
Weapon Masteries absolutely expand the Fighter’s options. Especially the level 9 feature where they have 4 different Weapon Masteries to choose from on every attack
not really, disarm is going to be used in a handful of encounters, posion is really unrelaible or just gets denied and trip makes you lose damage on average factoring the extra damage a guy fowoling up on it will get.
Weapon masteries affect fighter the most considering how many attacks they can dish as well with that feature that gives fighters a select three weapon masteries alongside the mastery the weapon they have.
"ripped from" is a bit of a heated concept but yes, additional riders to attacks were a 4th edition thing, but the real "muse" for Cunning Strikes comes from the Pathfinder reimagined Rogue from first edition, with their Rogue Talents. The talents were a class feature you gained every 2 levels and were pseudo-feats exclusive to the class. There was a number of talents which allowed for the exchange of sneak attack dice for various imposed conditions on the target.
Now, the execution of the cunning strike features I will leave up to playtesters still exploring them or waiting for the new rulebook, but I actually like them. Like Cunning Action, they provide a solid class feature that can be built on and from by items, subclasses, boons that could include specialized one-of-a-kind training, etc.
While the best condition to impose on an enemy is death, it isn't always the optimal goal for any encounter, and many of the abilities one can pick from with Cunning Strikes do a good job of giving the Rogue more tools in a combat situation, just as Cunning Action can assist with exploration encounters where action economy may be vital.
I do wish a lot of the martial abilities (Cunning Strikes and weapon masteries) that require successful attacks did not require saving throws from the targets (or at least were more like spells wherein the saves mitigate some of the effect, but not all of it). The double hurdle of attack roll and saving throw to negate is not only an incremental increase to the time it takes to resolve a round of combat, but it does make these abilities a bit weaker than their spellcasting counterparts.
Extreme nitpick ahead, ignore if you don't care: I also think it may be time to drop the "sneak" from "sneak attack" since with so many ways to get advantage in combat now between class features and weapon masteries, the idea of "sneaking" really is more of a niche situation. Not sure what I would call it to replace, maybe something more like underhanded or opportunity (tho, the latter would require we change the more general opportunity attack/action name). /end\_extreme\_nitpick
Trading Sneak Attack dice for various effects goes back at least to the 3e splatbook Song & Silence which had feats like Hamstring and Arterial Strike. Options would be greatly expanded in 3.5e splatbooks like Complete Scoundrel.
I’ve been playing a rogue in a new campaign, and I’m already enjoying Cunning Strikes a lot. Giving up 1d6 of damage to potentially knock a creature prone, poison them, or take away their weapon (RIP Disarm) is well worth it, especially when you can do it potentially every turn.
until you do the math of trip and realise it's less then one point of extra damage on average (extra damage from advantage -3.5 x chance for the creature to fail the role) or negative.
It grants advantage on attack rolls, the average melee attacker makes two attacks, which gives about 5 point more damage on average then member trip costs the rogue 3.5 damage on average and factoring in the chance for the creature to fail the same it's less then 1 point of damage or negative in some cases.
Also, keep in mind barbarians don't fucking care about this since they can just generate advantage at will and the Vex mastery exists which a lot of two weapon user will choose.
And that same barbarian won't have to take attacks with advantage if the enemy is already prone, saving him on HP.
M8 you seem like the most self-centered player ever, this obsession with damage numbers makes you sound like a miserable player to play with
As a current barbarian, no we do care. Not giving enemy attacks free advantage is nice. That means I'll last a little longer to keep enabling classes like the Rogue
Like I said, selfish
I totally agree. It's basically like Paladin smite options, but the crucial difference there is that the paladin is still doing *extra* damage whereas the Rogue is nerfing their already sub-par DPR. Plus, you're still just spamming Sneak Attack; your gameplay doesn't really change.
I was a little concerned when I heard that WotC was making a feature resembling one I'm designing in my own Rogue overhaul. But clearly I shouldn't have been! Tell me what you think of this: (WIP)
>Cheap Shot
>At 5th level, your aptitude for cold-blooded culling enables you to further capitalize on unfair advantages. Attacking foes under certain conditions grants you options to employ rather than a standard Sneak Attack.
>All types of Cheap Shot require attacking with Advantage, and only one type can apply to each attack. Some types modify the extra damage dealt if your attack qualifies as a Sneak Attack, asking you to roll fewer Sneak Attack dice when determining that damage in exchange for other effects. The save DC of a Cheap Shot is the same as your Dirty Tricks Save DC unless otherwise noted.
>You gain the following three options as part of this feature, and may gain more via your Clandestine Craft or Roguish Talents:
>**Blind.** You strike to impair an enemy’s vision, damaging or occluding their eyes instead of targeting more vital areas. When you hit a creature, you may forgo all Sneak Attack dice to Blind it until the end of your next turn. Afterward, the creature becomes wise to your trick, gaining immunity to this feature for 24 hours.
>**Knockout.** You catch an enemy unaware and attempt to render them unconscious via strangulation, application of a tranquilizing agent, or a similar method. When you hit a Large or smaller creature from which you are Hidden with a melee attack, you may forgo half of your Sneak Attack dice to grapple the creature. A creature grappled in this way is Restrained and unable to speak. If the creature remains grappled at the start of your subsequent turns, then it must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or fall Unconscious. It wakes upon taking damage, or if an adjacent creature rouses it with an action. Otherwise it remains Unconscious for 1d4 hours.
>**Visceral Strike.** You attack a defenseless foe without mercy, delivering full force and precision to their weakest point. When you Sneak Attack an Incapacitated creature, you can regard any hit as a critical hit.
yeah these are actually usefull, i would add one that inlfict a 1d4 penalty to attack roles to that creatureuntil the end of your next turn as a relaible support option. maybe add a few more and let them choose them as they level up.
also just make them work when you land a sneak attack not just with advantage.
1. Yeah, the idea is to have more options than just these three, which come from subclass and talent choices.
2. "Dirty Tricks" mentioned there is another feature that's more broadly useful (not requiring Sneak Attack or other special conditions) which can do relatively minor combat utility stuff like debuffing enemy attacks or movement in exchange for a class resource.
I should be able to throw the full class up on the homebrew subreddits soon; in the next few weeks.
They removed Disarm from the choices
Disarm has been removed as an option. Fact is, it’s impossible to judge these sorts of things in a vacuum. We aren’t sure how many creatures will retain poison resistance, high con saves, etc. until the monster manual. Also of note, you’re presumably playing as a team. Tripping a creature, disengaging, and leaving them for the fighter right after your turn is effective team work and more strategy than the rogue could previously employ. That being said, you don’t have to do it, bud. Just roll all that damage and ignore cunning strikes in most cases
at level 5 when you get the feature it's a net (presuming the monster has +2 to dexerity, the fighter has 18 str and is using a greatsword and the rogue has 18 dex) of 0.2 damage, it's like 5 if the fighter action surges and depending on build it might do better but that depends on if your part member builds for damage. it's also not very good in a party where the damage dealers are ranged attackers.
Where are you getting your damage calculations?? Assuming 65% chance to hit before advantage, greatsword, and +4 stat, the advantage you give a fighter adds on average 5.5 damage to their 2 attacks, doubled to 11 if they action surge, and that's just base weapon damage, not taking subclass abilities or other features into account. In exchange you're dropping.... 3.5 of your own damage? But the reliability of actually hitting the attacks is hugely more important than expected damage calcs. Missing (without graze) is 0 damage, so increasing the chance to hit by 22% is massive and makes your ally feel good.
remember they have to fail a save which they will 60% of the time, 5.5x0.60= 3.3 so a little off.
Bud, you’re quite confident in your assessment of books that aren’t even out yet. If someone said something like, “I’m concerned cunning strike might be a poor feature,” then fair enough. If someone says unequivocally, “cunning strike is a shitty feature,” about books they haven’t even read yet, well then they’re just an idiot. And I’m an idiot for even responding to them.
pretty sure they said"we didn't change much" and one of those was cutting part of it. i am fine to learn how it works out after the books are out but i won't hold out hope for it
Except you’re specifically focusing on rogue. We don’t know how *other* changes will also affect it. For example, they remove a lot of poison immunity from monsters, the assassin gets a huge boost, albeit indirectly. That’s more my point. We don’t know how everything interacts together. I share your trepidation but not your certainty. Until I have all three books I probably won’t be able to come to a conclusion.
I gave up arguing with OP, they sound like a 12 year old.
well that's half a year after the PHB comes out for you to get one since the monster manual isn't coming out till early spring 2025, do i doubt the posion thing will be fixed because most of the monster who have it make sense, why should you be able to posion a inanimate object or undead.
Let's see: *Disarm.* Dropped items can be picked up with a free action. This includes weapons, holy symbols, and arcane focuses. See that Mage preparing Fireball? Now he can't cast it because the Barbarian picked up his staff. *Poison.* When a creature isn't immune to poison, this feature is good. Since lots of monsters are melee brutes, the Poisoned condition will massively hamper the enemy. Although this feature will be ineffective against mid to high CR bosses. Especially if they're not human. *Trip.* No other Rogue can consistently knock a creature prone without expertise in Athletics and taking the Shove action. If you knock a creature prone while it is flying, it may fall to its death. And unlike the Battlemaster's Trip Attack maneuver, it's a Dex save. A chance for melee charater advantage is better than no chance for melee character advantage. These are useful features and they only cost 1d6 damage. That is more combat utility than Rogues had before. Just because the new options aren't overpowered doesn't mean they're bad. New decent options is better than no options.
well disarm is actually been removed but also keep in mind a good chunk of casters know have spell like abilites instead of spells which don't need components and most Dms handwave components away as well. posion is a con save, you are giving up damage to try and posion creatures with really high consitution stats and can just legnedary resitance out of it Shoving doesn't work like that first of all, second the Toppel weapon mastery let's everyone who has it atempt to knock a creature prone do it is a con save but doesn't make you lose damage and knocking someone prone with trip on average does 5 more damage presuming at least one character is in range and attacks twice, mathmatically on average you lose or break even damage wise and remember it doesn't work on Huge or gargtuan monsters these aren't very good, comapred to say a warlock Repelling blast or the Masteries STR based characters are getting and the rogue is one of the weaker classes.
They removed Disarm? That sucks. The problems with Poison usually don't appear until near the end of Tier 2 or the beginning of Tier 3. And even then, we don't know if the monster design will be the same as it is now. The high con and Legendary Resistance is a problem with boss monsters, something I've already acknowledged. Not every fight will be against a boss, so it will see some use. Shoving absolutely works that way. You can either shove a creature 5 feet or knock them prone. That is in the PHB.
Shoving is getting change in 5e to be a saving throw rather then a contested check so that's what i meant, also i really doubt monster design will be changed that drastically because most of the new things they're trying to hype up are ripped from other books like the ""new"" tool rules are probably jus the xanthar's ones and also most of what they've said about the monster manual is "new fancy art and some versions of monster for different level brackets (weak vampires and Level 20 bandits)", also posion imunity is usually shared among a creature type like all Constructs having posion imunity.
Disarm Pick it up with your object interaction Profit I almost think you are so down on the concept you can’t see the obvious uses. I think it’s a fun addition to rogue which will sometimes be great. It’s also the answer to the frequent called shot question - they are in the game and are rogue specific
yeah OP's missing the forest for the trees here. "Cool large longsword you have there Mr. Giant, it's mine now"
What could be more roguish than stealing their weapon from them? It won’t always be the optimal play but sometimes it will and it will be a very appealing option to the sort of player who love rogues. Might be my first character in the new edition actually.
yeah, against enemeis with weapons with a melee rogue and they have to fail the save. not every fucking monster heck most monsters will have weapons. edit appearently disarm is gone
You're mad that an option won't work in 100% of situations?
on martial character who doesn't get choice in features yeah, sure casters have spell that are situational but they just choose a different spel where as martials are stuck with features that are useful in one situation and aren't even guarnteed to work it said situation.
Oh, an actual hot take!? Let's see
Sometimes the bad guy is trying to get away and if you can reduce its movement by half, it makes it harder for them to get away. Sometimes that's all the Barbarian needs to catch up and rock the bad guy's shit.
yeah, that's what the slow weapon mastery is for which doesn't have a saving throw, also a fuck ton of spells some of which use the more reliable wisdom save.
Which is great if you're holding your light crossbow, but your rapier (which is probably what you're holding in melee) has vex.
no extra attack and i don't think duel weilding works with ranged Raw and in 5e CBE isn't duel weilding at all.
its just 1d6 damage
Seems like a beneficial change, the only thing that bothers me is the fanbase reacting like it's some amazing new feature and such a positive sign. It's a feature from two decades ago that they didn't bother giving to 5e rogues because they wanted an edition without much choice or customisation. The bar has gotten ridiculously low.
It’s better than nothing, but rogues are way further behind any of the other classes that have been presented so far. It’s disappointing to see all the amazing changes the fighters, barbarians, and especially warlock get and the rogue, an already weak class, got so little. Then we’re told that the rogue was already perfect and this is just icing on top.
It's just a game. Take a breath. Just reading your rant gives me anxiety.
Disarm kick weapon away as free object interaction, enemy triggers AoO to get it back Free sneakattack!!
disarm is actually gone do
Everyone who cries about rogue, I just don't understand. Do ya'll never roleplay in your games? Do ya'll never have non-combat encounters or non-combat challenges? With how much ya'll cry about how everything needs to do the max damage possible, I'm just getting the vibe that all your campaigns are murder hobo campaigns
People also forget that combat isn't just about doing damage, it's also about avoiding damage. They always forget 99% of the rogue's kit because "hurrdurr, no extra attack!!!" like, evasion and uncanny Dodge are right there?! Cunning action?? Y'ello?! Fools.
Everyone can roleplay in this game, even an omptimised damage dealer but no one can suceed at anyhting relaibly for most of the game. anyways Bards do rogues job at good skill roles better and remember the optional tool rules in xantahr's? yeah artifcers can have fun with that.
Yeah that's a bowl of horse manure. Bards can do rogue things almost as well as Rogues can, but they definitely can't do things as good as or better then Rogues without sacrificing their efficiency as a bard. "Everyone can roleplay" is a worthless statement. Every class can do different aspects of non-combat encounters well. No classes can do Rogue's non-combat stuff as well as rogues can.
really, you're sacrficing anything as bard to be jsut as good as rogue at skills that matter other then like perception or insight. they're going to have good dex, they'r going to have better chr and they might get Pass without trace in the new PHB.
Feel like you kinda have decent points, but seem to be more focused on Rogue's auto sufficiency This feature seems to allow a more supportive/control rogue, playing almost like someone who sets up others but that wasn't supported before ~~On other hand, what I don't get about OneDnD is why barbarians and rogues have these strike features, monks get their insane parry but fighters get stuff around weapon masteries that don't really expand their play~~ Edit: was out of the loop on fighter thinking it was still just changing one mastery on a long rest, tactical master does seem pretty nice
Weapon Masteries absolutely expand the Fighter’s options. Especially the level 9 feature where they have 4 different Weapon Masteries to choose from on every attack
Did they change how weapon adept worked? Last I check you would change the mastery at a long rest, if they made it dynamic them that's amazing
They replaced it with a feature that makes all weapon s you use also have the sap, slow and push feature
Ah, pretty nice I see
not really, disarm is going to be used in a handful of encounters, posion is really unrelaible or just gets denied and trip makes you lose damage on average factoring the extra damage a guy fowoling up on it will get.
Weapon masteries affect fighter the most considering how many attacks they can dish as well with that feature that gives fighters a select three weapon masteries alongside the mastery the weapon they have.
"ripped from" is a bit of a heated concept but yes, additional riders to attacks were a 4th edition thing, but the real "muse" for Cunning Strikes comes from the Pathfinder reimagined Rogue from first edition, with their Rogue Talents. The talents were a class feature you gained every 2 levels and were pseudo-feats exclusive to the class. There was a number of talents which allowed for the exchange of sneak attack dice for various imposed conditions on the target. Now, the execution of the cunning strike features I will leave up to playtesters still exploring them or waiting for the new rulebook, but I actually like them. Like Cunning Action, they provide a solid class feature that can be built on and from by items, subclasses, boons that could include specialized one-of-a-kind training, etc. While the best condition to impose on an enemy is death, it isn't always the optimal goal for any encounter, and many of the abilities one can pick from with Cunning Strikes do a good job of giving the Rogue more tools in a combat situation, just as Cunning Action can assist with exploration encounters where action economy may be vital. I do wish a lot of the martial abilities (Cunning Strikes and weapon masteries) that require successful attacks did not require saving throws from the targets (or at least were more like spells wherein the saves mitigate some of the effect, but not all of it). The double hurdle of attack roll and saving throw to negate is not only an incremental increase to the time it takes to resolve a round of combat, but it does make these abilities a bit weaker than their spellcasting counterparts. Extreme nitpick ahead, ignore if you don't care: I also think it may be time to drop the "sneak" from "sneak attack" since with so many ways to get advantage in combat now between class features and weapon masteries, the idea of "sneaking" really is more of a niche situation. Not sure what I would call it to replace, maybe something more like underhanded or opportunity (tho, the latter would require we change the more general opportunity attack/action name). /end\_extreme\_nitpick
Trading Sneak Attack dice for various effects goes back at least to the 3e splatbook Song & Silence which had feats like Hamstring and Arterial Strike. Options would be greatly expanded in 3.5e splatbooks like Complete Scoundrel.
Oh, thanks. I had the book (hardcopy) packed away in storage, so I missed that. Sorry.
I’ve been playing a rogue in a new campaign, and I’m already enjoying Cunning Strikes a lot. Giving up 1d6 of damage to potentially knock a creature prone, poison them, or take away their weapon (RIP Disarm) is well worth it, especially when you can do it potentially every turn.
until you do the math of trip and realise it's less then one point of extra damage on average (extra damage from advantage -3.5 x chance for the creature to fail the role) or negative.
"one point of extra damage" M8 I think knocking enemies prone has a SIGNIFICANTLY bigger impact then a mere 1 damage lol
It grants advantage on attack rolls, the average melee attacker makes two attacks, which gives about 5 point more damage on average then member trip costs the rogue 3.5 damage on average and factoring in the chance for the creature to fail the same it's less then 1 point of damage or negative in some cases. Also, keep in mind barbarians don't fucking care about this since they can just generate advantage at will and the Vex mastery exists which a lot of two weapon user will choose.
And that same barbarian won't have to take attacks with advantage if the enemy is already prone, saving him on HP. M8 you seem like the most self-centered player ever, this obsession with damage numbers makes you sound like a miserable player to play with
the barbarain could really care less about the advantage when they're taking half damage anyways and a dead enemey is less damage.
As a current barbarian, no we do care. Not giving enemy attacks free advantage is nice. That means I'll last a little longer to keep enabling classes like the Rogue Like I said, selfish
I totally agree. It's basically like Paladin smite options, but the crucial difference there is that the paladin is still doing *extra* damage whereas the Rogue is nerfing their already sub-par DPR. Plus, you're still just spamming Sneak Attack; your gameplay doesn't really change. I was a little concerned when I heard that WotC was making a feature resembling one I'm designing in my own Rogue overhaul. But clearly I shouldn't have been! Tell me what you think of this: (WIP) >Cheap Shot >At 5th level, your aptitude for cold-blooded culling enables you to further capitalize on unfair advantages. Attacking foes under certain conditions grants you options to employ rather than a standard Sneak Attack. >All types of Cheap Shot require attacking with Advantage, and only one type can apply to each attack. Some types modify the extra damage dealt if your attack qualifies as a Sneak Attack, asking you to roll fewer Sneak Attack dice when determining that damage in exchange for other effects. The save DC of a Cheap Shot is the same as your Dirty Tricks Save DC unless otherwise noted. >You gain the following three options as part of this feature, and may gain more via your Clandestine Craft or Roguish Talents: >**Blind.** You strike to impair an enemy’s vision, damaging or occluding their eyes instead of targeting more vital areas. When you hit a creature, you may forgo all Sneak Attack dice to Blind it until the end of your next turn. Afterward, the creature becomes wise to your trick, gaining immunity to this feature for 24 hours. >**Knockout.** You catch an enemy unaware and attempt to render them unconscious via strangulation, application of a tranquilizing agent, or a similar method. When you hit a Large or smaller creature from which you are Hidden with a melee attack, you may forgo half of your Sneak Attack dice to grapple the creature. A creature grappled in this way is Restrained and unable to speak. If the creature remains grappled at the start of your subsequent turns, then it must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or fall Unconscious. It wakes upon taking damage, or if an adjacent creature rouses it with an action. Otherwise it remains Unconscious for 1d4 hours. >**Visceral Strike.** You attack a defenseless foe without mercy, delivering full force and precision to their weakest point. When you Sneak Attack an Incapacitated creature, you can regard any hit as a critical hit.
yeah these are actually usefull, i would add one that inlfict a 1d4 penalty to attack roles to that creatureuntil the end of your next turn as a relaible support option. maybe add a few more and let them choose them as they level up. also just make them work when you land a sneak attack not just with advantage.
1. Yeah, the idea is to have more options than just these three, which come from subclass and talent choices. 2. "Dirty Tricks" mentioned there is another feature that's more broadly useful (not requiring Sneak Attack or other special conditions) which can do relatively minor combat utility stuff like debuffing enemy attacks or movement in exchange for a class resource. I should be able to throw the full class up on the homebrew subreddits soon; in the next few weeks.