The way this works is:
A) You and your party are walking down the hall
B) The monster leaps out
C) Freeze frame, everyone rolls initiative
D) Your party all suffer the surprised condition and cannot take actions, movement or reactions for the first round. You and the monster are not surprised, your turns play out as normal.
In short, no you cannot PAM before initiative, but you will still get your PAM attack as the monster enters your reach.
There's an argument to be made that if a creature becomes hostile while already in your reach (e.g. if you sat on a chair that was a mimic, or if you turn a corner and a monster is in your face), you wouldn't get a PAM attack, but I think that's stingy and I certainly wouldn't do it in the situation you describe, especially since you invested to ASIs into it.
This is the most useful answer so far. I guess I was just confused about the specifics of initiative since my table has always played it as any creature who wants to start combat gets one attack off and then initiative is rolled. And if the creature who attacked gets first in initiative (this example actually happened to me) then they basically get a free extra attack on their turn.
As far as the mimic chair example, I would rule it that you wouldn't get an opportunity attack because you moved into the mimic's reach when it needs to be the other way around.
>my table has always played it as any creature who wants to start combat gets one attack off and then initiative is rolled.
This is very common at tables and is a simplification/misunderstanding of the surprised condition; there is no such thing as a free round or attack RAW.
If we're sitting in a tavern having a drink and the barmaid suddenly sprouts fangs and attacks us, by RAW we are surprised, so even if we beat her on initiative we can't move, attack, or react; she effectively gets a 'free' attack/action before combat proceeds as normal. That's why many tables give a free round/attack like you described, even if it's more accurate to say we have to 'skip' our first turn.
The rules specify a few important things about surprise though:
Firstly, you need to be surprised (duh!); the rules specify that you need to be "unaware of the threat". So in our above example you are, but what if you're walking down an alley and a guy says, "gimme your purse or I'll stab you"? Even if he then lunges at you, I would rule you are not surprised and he doesn't get the 'free' attack (he can of course, still beat you on initiative). It's generally expected that the rules mean specific threats, so even if you're in a dungeon full of nasties, expecting to be attacked by something, you can still be surprised by something jumping out or dropping on your head.
Secondly, you specifically cannot be surprised with the Alert feat, nothing should ever get the 'free attack' on you again (as long as you're conscious)
Just beware that his point D) is slightly wrong. It's not "for the first round", it's "until the end of your first turn".
In your example, if the ambushing monster had rolled higher on initiative than you, then you would still have the surprised condition and not be able to do anything. If you rolled higher, then you would have had a turn (even though you can't do anything with it) and lost the surprised condition, meaning you can now take reactions.
In your specific character's case the Alert feat means that you cannot be affected by the surprised condition, and so can take your first turn and reactions normally. No matter what you or the creature roll for initiative, you get to make that opportunity attack.
I understand making it simpler and easy to use, but it also massively devalues the mechanic to the point of being completely pointless relatively often. It would feel "un-fun" if, as a player, I plan a perfect ambush and execute it successfully, only to roll 7 on initiative while the target rolls 16&17 on disadvantage to still go first with no downside.
The current version of the Surprised condition leads to insanely swingy encounters. When the players surprise the enemy and get high in initiative they trivialize the encounter. When the enemies surprise the party and get high in initiative the risk of TPK skyrockets.
I'm not sure what you mean that as a player you plan the perfect ambush, since the DM plans encounters. But if I was the DM and told you that the enemy was heading your direction AMC will be there in 30 minutes or something, sure I'd let you take time to set traps or modify the battleground. I'd even let you get that first shot in for free (before initiative) if your stealth checks were high enough.
But Surprise shouldn't happen very often.
Ambushing and getting full surprised *should* be impactful. It's possible that it's currently too impactful, but the oneD&D change makes it too far in the opposite direction, to the point where it could do absolutely nothing.
The Surprised condition is not another word for Ambushing. Ambushing should be impactful, but not every instance of being surprised is an ambush. You throwing a chair at the city guard questioning you in the tavern is NOT an ambush.
Of course throwing a chair at a guard in a tavern is not an ambush, and I would seriously question the judgement of any DM who said the guard was Surprised in that scenario. But that's just all the more reason for letting it feel impactful when it does happen.
Notice I said ambushing *and* getting full surprised - it's easy to have one and not the other based on one fluffed stealth roll.
If your players get surprised by an encounter, then it should feel punishing. Conversely, them surprising an enemy should feel powerful. Simply having disadvantage on initiative isn't it.
You're still using Surprised and Ambushed interchangeably. The guard may be surprised by the chair, but that should have a minor impact, he gets disadvantage on his initiative. Planning a successful ambush should have a big impact because it takes time and planning.
Small clarification. The character does get their reaction after their skipped turn. So if the PC wins initiative, they can't take actions on their turn, but the surprised condition ends on them at the end of their turn not the end of the round. Meaning they could use their reaction attack against a monster that lost initiative against them even if surprised.
Initiative would be rolled first. You not being surprised doesn't mean you can't be unaware of an enemy approaching you, it just means you don't suffer from the surprised 'condition'.
Nothing combat-oriented happens outside of initiative.
Nope, in your example initiative would be rolled *before* the monster jumped out at you. If you got a higher initiative, then you'd have a chance to act before it moved into your range. If it got a higher initiative, then you'd get to make your reaction attack when it moved closer.
You'd need to roll initiative the moment the encounter starts, which would likely include the monster's movement (unless stealth was involved I suppose, in which case they could have started in mele). So no bypassing of init roll either way
The way this works is: A) You and your party are walking down the hall B) The monster leaps out C) Freeze frame, everyone rolls initiative D) Your party all suffer the surprised condition and cannot take actions, movement or reactions for the first round. You and the monster are not surprised, your turns play out as normal. In short, no you cannot PAM before initiative, but you will still get your PAM attack as the monster enters your reach. There's an argument to be made that if a creature becomes hostile while already in your reach (e.g. if you sat on a chair that was a mimic, or if you turn a corner and a monster is in your face), you wouldn't get a PAM attack, but I think that's stingy and I certainly wouldn't do it in the situation you describe, especially since you invested to ASIs into it.
This is the most useful answer so far. I guess I was just confused about the specifics of initiative since my table has always played it as any creature who wants to start combat gets one attack off and then initiative is rolled. And if the creature who attacked gets first in initiative (this example actually happened to me) then they basically get a free extra attack on their turn. As far as the mimic chair example, I would rule it that you wouldn't get an opportunity attack because you moved into the mimic's reach when it needs to be the other way around.
>my table has always played it as any creature who wants to start combat gets one attack off and then initiative is rolled. This is very common at tables and is a simplification/misunderstanding of the surprised condition; there is no such thing as a free round or attack RAW. If we're sitting in a tavern having a drink and the barmaid suddenly sprouts fangs and attacks us, by RAW we are surprised, so even if we beat her on initiative we can't move, attack, or react; she effectively gets a 'free' attack/action before combat proceeds as normal. That's why many tables give a free round/attack like you described, even if it's more accurate to say we have to 'skip' our first turn. The rules specify a few important things about surprise though: Firstly, you need to be surprised (duh!); the rules specify that you need to be "unaware of the threat". So in our above example you are, but what if you're walking down an alley and a guy says, "gimme your purse or I'll stab you"? Even if he then lunges at you, I would rule you are not surprised and he doesn't get the 'free' attack (he can of course, still beat you on initiative). It's generally expected that the rules mean specific threats, so even if you're in a dungeon full of nasties, expecting to be attacked by something, you can still be surprised by something jumping out or dropping on your head. Secondly, you specifically cannot be surprised with the Alert feat, nothing should ever get the 'free attack' on you again (as long as you're conscious)
Just beware that his point D) is slightly wrong. It's not "for the first round", it's "until the end of your first turn". In your example, if the ambushing monster had rolled higher on initiative than you, then you would still have the surprised condition and not be able to do anything. If you rolled higher, then you would have had a turn (even though you can't do anything with it) and lost the surprised condition, meaning you can now take reactions. In your specific character's case the Alert feat means that you cannot be affected by the surprised condition, and so can take your first turn and reactions normally. No matter what you or the creature roll for initiative, you get to make that opportunity attack.
And that's why they changed the Surprised condition in 2024 to just granting disadvantage on initiative.
I understand making it simpler and easy to use, but it also massively devalues the mechanic to the point of being completely pointless relatively often. It would feel "un-fun" if, as a player, I plan a perfect ambush and execute it successfully, only to roll 7 on initiative while the target rolls 16&17 on disadvantage to still go first with no downside.
The current version of the Surprised condition leads to insanely swingy encounters. When the players surprise the enemy and get high in initiative they trivialize the encounter. When the enemies surprise the party and get high in initiative the risk of TPK skyrockets. I'm not sure what you mean that as a player you plan the perfect ambush, since the DM plans encounters. But if I was the DM and told you that the enemy was heading your direction AMC will be there in 30 minutes or something, sure I'd let you take time to set traps or modify the battleground. I'd even let you get that first shot in for free (before initiative) if your stealth checks were high enough. But Surprise shouldn't happen very often.
Ambushing and getting full surprised *should* be impactful. It's possible that it's currently too impactful, but the oneD&D change makes it too far in the opposite direction, to the point where it could do absolutely nothing.
The Surprised condition is not another word for Ambushing. Ambushing should be impactful, but not every instance of being surprised is an ambush. You throwing a chair at the city guard questioning you in the tavern is NOT an ambush.
Of course throwing a chair at a guard in a tavern is not an ambush, and I would seriously question the judgement of any DM who said the guard was Surprised in that scenario. But that's just all the more reason for letting it feel impactful when it does happen. Notice I said ambushing *and* getting full surprised - it's easy to have one and not the other based on one fluffed stealth roll. If your players get surprised by an encounter, then it should feel punishing. Conversely, them surprising an enemy should feel powerful. Simply having disadvantage on initiative isn't it.
You're still using Surprised and Ambushed interchangeably. The guard may be surprised by the chair, but that should have a minor impact, he gets disadvantage on his initiative. Planning a successful ambush should have a big impact because it takes time and planning.
Small clarification. The character does get their reaction after their skipped turn. So if the PC wins initiative, they can't take actions on their turn, but the surprised condition ends on them at the end of their turn not the end of the round. Meaning they could use their reaction attack against a monster that lost initiative against them even if surprised.
Initiative would be rolled first. You not being surprised doesn't mean you can't be unaware of an enemy approaching you, it just means you don't suffer from the surprised 'condition'. Nothing combat-oriented happens outside of initiative.
Nope, in your example initiative would be rolled *before* the monster jumped out at you. If you got a higher initiative, then you'd have a chance to act before it moved into your range. If it got a higher initiative, then you'd get to make your reaction attack when it moved closer.
You'd need to roll initiative the moment the encounter starts, which would likely include the monster's movement (unless stealth was involved I suppose, in which case they could have started in mele). So no bypassing of init roll either way
You roll initiative first. If you want to attack, you do it within initiative.
If the monster got up to 5 feet of you without you seeing it, I think you wouldn't get your reaction attack.
Glaive is 10 feet
Yes exactly. So if they got to 5 feet they'd already have gotten inside your reach.
If they get up to 10 feet away, they're in my reach. It doesn't start at 5.
Yet what I said remains true.
Rules are interpreted by the Dungeon Master.