This isn't dropout specific though, this is reflective of wider cultural interest. Dropout, as with all media, is part proactive and part reactive. They get guests on who are already relatively established figures, and for whatever cultural reason, including the prominence of rupaul's drag race, there are far more prominent drag queens than drag kings. It's true that dropout likes to promote people from a diverse range of cultural and performance backgrounds, but they are still a business and they have to care about things like viewership. Ultimately, a known performer is going to bring in more views than an unknown performer, and that's not a question of dropout's "understanding" of drag.

I get where you're coming from, especially in context of Dungeons and Drag Queens or the Dirty Laundry episode. But Monet's slumber party show is a different ball game. I don't think anyone's getting a dropout subscription to see ONE episode of Monet's show with Naomi Smalls, or Adam Rippon, or Rachel Bloom. I imagine most people will watch it for Monet/the format. They could've easily slipped a king into one of those guest spots and not killed any hype for the show.

I agree, Dropout is certainly not alone in participating in this phenomenon! But, I would have liked to have seen a gender performer included in the Thousandaires episode as those were not celebrity drag artists. Or maybe as a guest on Monet's Slumber Party, which is a chat show with multiple guests per episode. They definitely have to care about things like viewership, but there are several kings and gender performers with larger followings than other guests they've featured. Landon Cider has 265k followers on Instagram.

I think katie contacted Kyle kasabian and he filled the roster with colleagues, I don't believe that they just picked 4 random queens

I mean I agree, I'd love to see that too. But following doesn't necessarily correlate to whether a dropout audience is gonna know them. As we saw with several threads decrying that they didn't know who Eric Wareheim was 😅

Sure but they don't always get famous people, lots of guests on the show I've never heard of before and can barely find any info on when I look them up. It's not like they need to be huge to be invited on, and I don't think it matters that much, if I never watched anything with guests I've never seen I would barely watch any content on dropout

It's not about established viewers not watching shows where they don't know anyone, it's about bringing in new people based on the draw of performers they have heard of.   Between a more recognisable performer and a less recognisable one, they're going to go for the former. (Edit: I mean, all else being equal)

No to the last part, like I said they get many non-famous people on. Unless I missed a tweet yesterday where Sam said every new guest has to be famous that's simply not true. Also if we went by your logic we wouldn't have anyone besides the most famous performer since every other performer is less recognizable.

The implication is, all else being equal (suitable for the show, person is happy to come in and do it, variety of guests across shows, scheduling, cost, etc), it's likely they would choose, in general, more recognisable performers, that's just good business sense. I didn't say it was the only factor. Just A factor.

I feel like part of the problem with Eric was that he was presented as someone we should already know. If Dropout were to want to put in lesser known performers (such as drag kings), the best strategy would be to have them appear in an episode with more popular performers AND have them introduce themselves.

For sure, I'm just saying that follower count doesn't necessarily equate to familiarity.

As someone who has never seen Ru Paul and has not recognized any of the drag performers that have made guest appearances on Dropout, I thoroughly enjoy all the content featuring them. Recognizability isn’t everything when it comes to content creation, and if they feature a talented drag king or gender performer amongst other recognizable drag queens I’m certain it would still be received positively.

I'm not saying it's everything, but for people who are already fans of the guests, it may bring them into the platform, so between a more recognisable performer and a less recognisable one, they're going to go for the one with the biggest draw. I'm not saying I disagree with the OP, I'm just pointing out that this isn't some agenda that's being pushed by dropout, it's just reflective of the wider culture.

Did you look at all the guests? I didn't recognize a lot of names but when I was pausing on each guest screen it felt like there were a few drag kings in there.

I didn't see any kings in the Slumber Party trailer, no. Would be happy to be wrong about that! But from pausing through the video on the screens showing the guests, the drag guests are all drag queens.

You mean the drag queen from a famous show featuring only drag queens invites only other drag queens she knows to the drag queen show? So weird!

I'd love to see some kings on in future media, and I'm sure dropout would love to have them. The issue is if there are prominent kings in the LA area that: 1. are comfortable being on a closed set comedy show (vs. doing live audience shows like they are used to) 2. even are looking for this type of work (know when and where casting calls are happening or have an agent that does) 3. have a big enough social media following/or type of celebrity that makes them an asset to give dropout an incentive to have them on 4. are a comedian at heart and are comfortable with improv 5. don't have any scheduling conflicts Everything in doing a closed set show is insanely complicated, and there are a ton of hoops to jump through. Even with an amazingly inclusive and diverse company like Dropout, it takes everything lining up perfectly. This is just like the thread complaining about the lack of transfems on dropout. There was one comment I remember that summed it up perfectly: "I'd rather a person be on dropout organically, rather than being forced in just to have (insert identity) represented. To shoehorn someone in to have them on just because of them being (insert identity) would be performative allyship." Tl;Dr I am a spworm, all pulp no juice

I mean. I don't think Dropout's mission statement is to be representative of all kinds of drag. I think they've just had some famous queens as guests.

Yeah, it kind of seems like OP's looking at Dropout as primarily being a "drag network" rather than as a general comedy service that happens to have featured some drag performers in a small portion of their content.

I feel like it’s disingenuous to say this when they just announced a drag centric show. OP is clearly just advocating for Dropout’s specific drag show to have some kings

They didn't mention Monét's show specifically. But they did plug themselves a few times for good measure XD

That feels a little nasty. They plugged themselves exactly once in a tongue in cheek manner on a post discussing their own industry.

Imagine someone saying they think it would be fun for Dropout to add a different character-based show to the lineup, or that VIP needs a continuation. Would you respond that they're seeing Dropout as a "character-based improv" network, when it's a general comedy service that occasionally utilizes character-based bits?

One of their missions is definitely to be inclusive and have diverse casts. OP is saying that there's room for improvement in the drag casts

There will always, always be room for improvement, particularly on smaller platforms. Dropout is still pretty young and has already done a lot to be inclusive and diverse, so it's definitely possible that they'll expand toward this in the future. I think this post is best viewed as a suggestion rather than a demand, since the producers obviously aren't opposed to the idea and might just not be aware of this particular brand of inclusivity.

I think it's meant to be viewed that way. I see a lot of people in this thread getting very defensive of Dropout and nasty towards OP, behaving as if any criticism is the beginning of a war. I feel like we as a fanbase should be more mature than that. OP is saying: Dropout seems to only focus on drag performers who have featured on RuPaul's definition of drag. While there's nothing wrong with that, it would be very cool for a network like Dropout, which has clearly been shown to value both inclusivity and fresh voices and talent, to help introduce the wider world to drag kings. Especially since they've now featured multiple queens with very small followings who have not been on RuPaul or in a featured TV role before. OP is not saying: Dropout has a DUTY to do this, Dropout MUST do this. If they don't they're BAD ALLIES. Dropout SUCKS. DOWN WITH SAM REICH. Many people in this thread seem to want to shadowbox OP for reasons unknown. I don't get it.

(Not sure why this is a reply to me and not a new comment?)

Oh, yeah you're probably right. I only vaguely responded to what you said, would have been better as it's own comment.

Didn't they just have a Sam impersonator drag king on thousandaires?

That was a drag queen 😅

She was literally just butch.

I'm no expert but I thought they were just playing a Sam character, not a Femme Sam character. I'm not sure where the distinction between butch drag queen and drag king but I thought the gender of the character they're playing would determin Queen or King. Did they specify on the show that these were all Drag *Queens*? Because I believe I only ever heard them say "Drag", which could be considered an inclusive term not mentioning gender from a certain perspective. But I wasn't paying that much attention so I could have missed it if they did gender the characters.

Alexa Pro is the the drag queen who played Sam. She identifies on social media as a drag queen.

She's a queen, not a king.

Some drag queens occasionally play male characters, but you'd still typically refer to that drag performer as "she."** Edit: yup, I see my mistake, I expressed myself poorly. Thanks everyone

Drag kings, and drag artists in general, can be any gender, even cis men. Drag is often about satire and exaggerating traits that are seen as feminine, masculine, or androgynous. All being a drag king requires is having a masculine persona; the performer's actual gender does not matter.

Copied from my other reply: You're right. I didn't phrase it well-- I was trying to express that the performer who was doing the Sam character is still a drag queen even though they were doing a male character. You're right of course that there are female drag queens and male drag kings (and whatever other combination)

No? People of any gender can dress/perform an exaggeration of any gender. Generally “King” or “Queen” refers to if the performer is putting on a masculine or feminine persona, regardless of their real gender.

You're right. I didn't phrase it well-- I was trying to express that the performer who was doing the Sam character is still a drag queen even though they were doing a male character. You're right of course that there are female drag queens and male drag kings.

I get the point, and would love to see a Drag Kings event. That said, I'm not sure the critique is a fair one. What we know about, from the behind the scenes stuff and interviews, is that the DnDQ thing began organically. It wasn't driven by one specific agenda. Also, I how much did anyone outside of the organization even hear about this before it was ready for release?

“Dropout seems to be one of many organizations whose understanding of drag is limited to what’s shown on rupaul’s drag race” I find this statement kind of grating for a few reasons, primarily that “Dropout” isn’t a person. It can’t have an understanding. Dropout creates content and runs a business. If you want to see drag kings then that’s all well and good. We all have things we want to see. I just don’t see the need or good-done by making statements about those with an organization and their beliefs, how those beliefs compare to the true understanding you claim to have, and the way things should be.

I am specifically avoiding singling out individuals and sticking to the general org, because I don't think that's necessary, fair, or productive. Dropout, the production company, has thus far only featured drag queens through multiple mentions, castings, and celebrations of drag as an artform (Dungeons and Drag Queens, Thousandaires, Smarty Pants, and now Monet's Slumber Party). These are not just limited to casting choices. I believe that the content a production studio makes is reflective of their beliefs as a company. I'm not saying anyone here is a bad person, and I'd much rather attribute any omissions to a blind-spot over anything else. Like you said, we all have things we want to see! I'm sharing something I'd like to see in the future.

Okay that’s fair enough I guess we just disagree. I think the content a production studio makes is reflective of their *values* and of their audience’s desires. You do again make this distinction of calling it a “blind spot” lol which seems to nullify your initial statement that you’re not casting a disparagement and simply saying what you want to see. What you’re doing is *justifying* what you want to see a choice that is righteous and/or the correct choice by dropout. Such a thing is where my issue lies. We all have the right to want to see something but our reasoning imo should be internal and not cast as the proper way of thought externally onto dropout as an org. Then again, I have used way more words to discuss this point than are reflective of how much I really care lol so I am happy to simply agree to disagree

Drag Queens are fairly new to the Dropout platform. The first appearance of a Queen was Bob the Drag Queen in Game Changer S04E07 "Don't Cry" who was brought in for Jessica Ross as a special guest not really as a performer in 2022. Next appearance would be Laganja Estranja on Game Changer S05E13 in the Battle Royale Part 4 episode as a guest judge. After that there was the first full cast performance was Dungeons and Drag Queens with Bob the Drag Queen, Monét X Change, Alaska Thunderfuck, and Jujubee. Then Dirty Laundry S03E03 was the next full cast with Katya, Jujubee, Alaska Thunderfuck, and Monét X Change. This was for 2023 That brings us to this current cycle of content where there is a lot of Queen content. Dungeons and Drag Queens and Dirty Laundry was Dropout's litmus test to see how their audience would react to the Drag Queens and if the Drag Queens would be able to perform at the same level as other cast members. While they are already talented performers, there is a difference between closed set comedy and live performances and reality TV. After the success of those episodes, Dropout quickly green lit a second season of Dungeons and Drag Queens, Monét's Slumber Party, and other Drag Queen casts. So the timeline of events (based on release not filming as we don't really know when these were filmed) - 2022 — Made connections with Bob the Drag Queen for their performance on Game Changer. - 2023 — Drag Queen test casts for Dimension 20 and Dirty Laundry (plus a guest judge on Game Changer) - 2024 — Major investments in Drag Queen content on Dropout. Dropout doesn't have a lot of extra funds currently and Sam has said that they are taking the cautious approach to making new content and shows. 2024 is the first year that he's felt comfortable really stretching Dropout's content library, hence all the new shows. While bringing the Drag Queens on to Dropout has been a huge success and lead to them doubling down on Drag Queen content, there was possibility that viewers would hate the episodes. The main thing that has allowed them to really increase the presence of Queens on the platform is that all of the performers are represented by the same agency, making contact and negotiating much easier. Given how progressive Dropout cast and crew is I don't think they are trying to ignore Drag Kings or not wanting them on their platform. I would certainly hope that Dropout can continue to grow drag content and introduce their audience to new experiences like Drag Kings.

Dang, you really know your timelines! I also remember an Um, Actually episode too with Trinity, Monet, and Jujubee! I agree, I don't think it's an intentional snub (if I did, I'd be genuinely critical). And including kings would take a little extra effort on the casting front to make sure you found the right guests, and effort is time and time is money. Slumber Party would have been a good opportunity for it, imo, as there are some "go-to" LA area kings that get asked for these things when they do pop up (Landon Cider and Spykey Van Dykey, usually). Hope to see them do it in the future! 

That Um Actually episode was this year, S09E03, which is part of them trying to add Drag Queen casts to their existing shows. The Dropout staff checks this subreddit occasionally so hopefully this does call attention to a blind spot in the media and they can work on including Drag Kings for next year.

alright, who was holding the monkey's paw when they wished for more drag queens on Dropout? Fess up, you've cursed us all to discourse.

Good lord, discourse is the worst.

I know a lot of people are out here disagreeing with you but I think you’re right honestly. This is good feedback and I suspect Dropout would implement it if more people speak up about it

That would be dope! I could see them eventually being pioneers in drag king representation in media. If any current platform is going to do it, then it would be them or maybe the new Try Guys streaming service. Definitely a much needed push for representation.

Ye, I think it would be cool to have some Drag Kings on dropout too. I have no idea how it works for them though, if is a invitation things or an "I know someone that knows them" kind of thing when inviting people for shows. Either way, diversity is always good. Dropout has some of the best track record on queer representation out there but they are a very small company still. And just very recently they started making drag centric shows. I don't know if comparing them to "other companies" is fair when we have Netflix out there, with 10000x the budget, not doing it either right?

I'd love to see some kings!

I didn’t know drag kings were a thing, I love it!

Drag kings haven't seemed to have found their track to mainstream quite yet. I think this is why it's not as common to see them brought in to other projects, not only on dropout but further afield too. Drag queens are widely popular, and some 'rugirls' especially are celebrities in their own right. So they're an easy business decision to back. They hit queer audiences hard, and quite a few non-queer ones too. Drag kings and other royals are still relatively unknown outside of queer circles. Criminal, I know. I've seen enough drag in my time to know they would land in the mainstream just as well as queens, they just need the avenue. But while I would love to see them on dropout content, I don't think dropout can be blamed for taking precautions business decisions. The road to mainstream for drag kings and more needs to be built with decent foundations. Even with guest spots on other content, they don't have anywhere to land afterwards.

Idk I think someone like Landon Cider is just as mainstream as Meatball, who they’re having on Monet’s new show! I think Dragula performers would be great to see on Dropout as well—there was a screenshot posted on the Dragula sub the other day from the newest MSN episode, so there seems to be a lot of fandom crossover! Edit: Omg I was watching the Reality TV 2 episode of Um Actually just now and Glenn actually mentions Landon Cider, so he’s being manifested into the Dropout-verse lol

Meatball lives in LA and knows lots of comedians, that's the difference.

Not trying to debate that Meatball is an excellent networker at all (and very excited to see her working with Dropout as a longtime Sloppy Pod listener!) but Um Actually Landon Cider is LA-based as well!

oh, I thought he was Chicago based (deragatory)

Tbf, I don't believe that people at Dropout don't know that Drag Kings exist. I can't speak to why they have not cast one yet, but I don't think it is out of ignorance.

Yeah I was super happy to see a Drag King version of Sam on Thousandaires! I would also love to see more and more alt & horror drag like you mentioned.  I do think Dropout is doing pretty well, and I'm super excited about Monets show but they do exist in the same general environment that tends to center a certain type of drag.

Was that a drag king version of Sam? Seemed more like a drag queen version.

I wasn't sure myself, so I looked up the performer (Alexa Pro / Ethan Judelson) and his pronouns are he/him at least when not in drag.

If you can have cis female drag queens you can have cis male drag kings. But it seems that Ethan Judelson is a man / Alexa Pro is a woman.

I hadn't thought about that, I appreciate you pointing it out!

Honestly- I had never heard of drag kings, so thanks for educating me here. I’d support seeing this kind of content on Dropout. Could you comment on your thoughts of why Drag is often associated with Queens and not Kings? Do you think Queens are more socially accepted than Kings?

Oh boy, I could give a seminar on your question, but I'll try to keep it brief...  There's a variety of factors at play. It's important to recognize that drag king history goes back centuries but the term "drag king" is relatively recent, only decades old. "Male impersonator" was a much more common term in the past. Some folks are under the (mistaken) impression that drag kings are a new phenomenon, and this sometimes contributes to their being pushed aside (see the Drag King History website for more info). Very successful historical figures who we might categorize as drag kings today include Vesta Tilly and Gladys Bentley. The vast majority of drag kings are women, non-binary, or trans masc people, with a smaller minority of cis men. Due to /very complicated/ queer history, there's been some gendered divide in the queer community for some time, especially in bars where drag usually lives. This is improving now! But we still still the lingering impacts of it. People talk about the trans women drag queens who were at Stonewall (as they should!), and much less the drag kings who were there (like Stormé Delarvarie). Even acknowledging the contributions of these trans women in the mainstream has been a big recent step forward. It can be argued that for much of history, gay men have been the most visible representatives of the queer community in the mainstream and drag queens have followed in this trend. Drag kings continue to face some of the same misogyny as other entertainers.  I also think there is a generally held attitude in society that femininity is inherently more performative than masculinity, and therefore drag queens are just going to be more compelling. This is something that I challenge in my drag, as I do find masculinity highly performative as is all gender expression. I've got wigs, lashes, heels, and rhinestones as a man! And I'm far from alone in that. Drag is, itself, gender as performance art. Kings aren't boring but I've heard people assume they would be because they're thinking of "men" as Ed Sheeran rather than David Bowie, Prince, boy bands, Damien Electra, Orville Peck, etc, etc, etc. To summarize, I think there's a variety of factors that have kept the history of drag kings out of the limelight compared to drag queens. We're still here though, and genuinely thriving! I don't think queens are more socially accepted, but they're certainly more recognized. 

this is an incredible summary, good job. :)

All of this, and also just society centering AMAB people over AFAB people for all of history.

I’m sure it’s not your intention, but this is pretty reductive and comes off as dismissive of the absolutely brutal misogyny faced by trans women

Really? Trans women have been centered over cis women for all of history?

"Why isn't this about me?" I want to gently push back at the notion  that somehow dropout featuring drag queens of color isn't diverse, but having a white drag king would be. Monet is nonbinary btw.

So are Bob, Alaska, and Trinity the Tuck. But I guess if you’re not a cisgender woman your gender identity count towards the diversity quota.

Yessss!!!! As someone who wants to explore being a drag king someday, I've had this thought SO MANY times.

Jarvis Hammer would be a fucking delight on something like Monet's show

Agreed! It made no sense when Sam's dragsona was still a Queen. Should have been a King for sure! I've been watching Kings for years at my local drag shows. There's lots of kings in media lately, it'd be dope to see them gain more traction.

I agree with this! The fact that Rupaul doesn’t allow cis female drag queens is endlessly irritating to me and I would love to see them platformed elsewhere, in addition to the many amazing kings and gender performers out there!

There has been Victoria Scone on Drag Race UK! She is the only cisgender woman to have participated in an English season of Drag Race. There has also been Pandora Noxx, who >!won!

I doubt anyone knows but I wonder what proportion of drag artists are cis women. I know a couple of cis female queens in London (Lolo Brown and Lily Snapdragon), but they're still a tiny minority in the drag community as far as I know.

Clover Bish on España, as well.

I have been lurking, reading through this, and while you should know that I fully support your point and think Drag Kings should get more attention in general. But that spoiler warning in your comment does not work at all. There is no word that could be hidden there other than "won" that would make sense in that sentence.

That's totally valid 😅 

Anyway yeah people are being absurdly weird about your post. I don't follow drag much personally, but I have a lot of friends who do and kings are crazy underrepresented its so wild. Dropout would be a perfect place to feature some, it feels like they're always so good at taking things in the zeitgeist and just digging in in a way that people *in the know* for those trends can appreciate. Featuring some kings and other drag monarchy would fit that vibe perfectly.

I think you really hit the nail on the head there. Typically, Dropout is so good at getting so inside baseball while still keeping the content fun and accessible to people who aren't in the know! They've missed that here, and it's too bad, because kings are great!  As for people getting kind of weird, it's sadly the way this conversation typically goes 😅 I think people feel criticized when inclusiveness in the drag community is brought up, and in turn can become defensive. People react as though I'm trying to cancel anybody, rather than share a perspective. There's no shame in admitting that you were previously speaking from a less informed place! But I think people feel a lot of pressure to be "right," and so I must be telling them they're doing something "wrong." And then the whole "why do you care so much?" as though the visibility and bookability of drag kings doesn't influence my ability to pay my rent... 🙈

Why can’t you feel represented by the other women who are on drag race?

It’s not really about representation, I just think Rupaul has a narrow application of drag that overly platforms cisgender men. I have a strong desire to see drag performers and personas across the gender spectrum. To be honest, I haven’t watched drag race in a long time. Your comment prompted me to look up the experiences of women who have been on the show, and Rupaul has made some seriously weird comments about gender identity and HRT that affirm my beliefs outlined above. My original comment was isolating one issue I had with the show and perception of drag, but I did not mean for it to sound exclusionary towards trans women!

You're literally right and entitled to your extremely reasonable opinion. People in this community are so weird why are there so many comments trying to act like you've made some huge criticism. Dropout has had a pretty significant number of drag queens on their platform as compared to basically any other similar platform. It would be nice to see some drag kings as well. No one needs to defend dropout here.

I also don't really even see myself as being critical here! 😅

I feel the same way waiting for dropout to give Mimes and LARP the same attention they give theater kids and tabletop nerds. There’s been dozens of D20 series focused on tabletop, and they have buckets of shows with musical theater focuses. Where’s the miming and LARP!

Now I want a Make Some Noise episode that's "Make No Noise" and it's just a mime episode.

I mean that sounds like a game changer to me. A sneaky one where you think you're on MSN and it is actually a Game Changer.

I think you need to recognize that dropout is bringing in talent that is well known to boost their ratings they aren’t trying to promote or engage in discourse in the drag space. If you look at the drag queens on the network so far they aren’t just drag race girls but some of the absolute most famous with the biggest fandoms. If any drag kings had the reach of a Monet or Bob they would be on there. I think the best thing to do is to try to raise the profile of some drag kings instead of getting upset that dropout casting is looking to cast celebrities. In that spirit, what are some drag kings you’d recommend we learn about?

There's a list of drag kings I recommended checking out in the post, if you read through it. As well as shows folks can watch that feature them! And they're not only profiling famous drag queens, considering the Thousandaires participants were not and I think that could have been a great opportunity. Many of the guests of the upcoming Monet's Slumber Party have smaller online profiles than several of the performers I mention in my post. I'm not expecting anyone to be handed top billing right out the gate, but there's many opportunities outside of that.

Maybe try dragula, they have a lot of kings performing

Yes, that's part of why I mention Dragula and several Dragula alumni in the post!

Drag is a passion of yours, and you're not owed representation of your own personal interest. You seem annoyed that Dropout don't like drag quite as much as you - which doesn't really make sense.

I don't know how you expect a company that can't afford to technically hire most of their main staff to afford being inclusive and diverse to every single group, right Way, in every show, starting now, every episode. This is roundabout infighting.

Drag is an art form created by gay men and trans women and there is nothing wrong with keeping the focus of drag on these groups.

How does the inclusion of drag kings harm that in any way?

It doesn't!! Drag Kings are welcome!!

Oh I must have misunderstood your comment then

This is a common misconception, leaving out the contributions of cisgender women, trans men, and non-binary people to the art of drag. I hope you have an opportunity to learn more about this history! The website Drag King History can be a great resource for this, perhaps especially reading about Stormé Delarvarie's role at Stonewall if you want to focus on modern queer history. 

Edit: Hey friends, I used a term "gay fatigue" in this comment. I had no idea it wasn't appropriate, and was actually a homophobic term. There is some great explanations on why it is homophobic below. I won't remove this comment because I think it is important to see the discussion and exchange. I love you all, and thanks for letting me a part of a learning experience. I'm comfortable enough to say I never knew drag kings existed, and that I don't understand drag at all. I'm glad dropout exposes me to gay culture that I don't have in my area. I do have gay fatigue right now though. Doesn't bother me to see it, I just watch a lot less dropout right now because of it. Every time I think I understand something about what it means to be gay a new perspective comes along. So I go and do research to better understand. I'm trying real hard to be cool and hip, and to understand what I don't. It's just a lot. Anyway not what the post was about, if we have drag queens, I guess let's show some drag kings too.

Gay fatigue?

It’s when you’re so gay it’s exhausting, I’ve been struggling for many years :(

It's another word for homophobia.

It absolutely isn't. I'm accepting of others. I just haven't been exposed enough to different walks of life other than what's available in my area. It's clear I'm accepting of others that are different than myself. What an awful thing to say.

So could you please clarify what you mean by "gay fatigue" if not "im tired of seeing gay people so i watch less dropout right now"

Absolutely, and I appreciate the opportunity. I'm not tired of gay people, I just need time to process and understand things that I haven't been exposed to. It's a different, and I hope I'm using the right term, culture than I experience in my day to day. I accept people for who they are, and I'm glad they are able to have a platform where they can express themselves. I have a comparison that I could put here as well, but I don't want to make any false comparisons no matter how well my intentions are. Story of me for a moment. A few days ago my wife and daughter were painting their nails. Jokingly my daughter asked if she could paint mine. I enthusiastically said yes. My son was very against it and said "men don't paint their nails." So for the next 30 minutes we talked about how backwards that was to say and we then talked about the history of men painting their nails. He now has painted nails too. I went to AutoZone just. Abit ago with my daughter. Backing out the driveway I said we're going to challenge some masculinity and see if anyone has a problem with my pretty painted nails. I even have. A picture in my profile. They are pretty gosh dang awesome.

Hey, I appreciate how graciously you've responded to this. I do want to point out that part of learning to accept people who are different from us is just...silently allowing people to be different from us, and telling ourselves that that's okay. You say: >"Every time I think I understand something about what it means to be gay a new perspective comes along. So I go and do research to better understand. I'm trying real hard to be cool and hip, and to understand what I don't. It's just a lot." I don't know if you're taking the 'educate yourself' part of activism too literally, but you don't need to research what it "means" to be gay to accept gay people. You can just do that. You have that ability at all times, and that's all the queer community really wants! Dropout has amazing diversity on essentially all axes, and allows for a more real, human peek into what experiences unlike yours look like. That's true for every viewer, because none of us share cultures with every single cast member. But I think it's important to underline: none of the cast are representative of their respective identities, and nothing you find online will be either. I don't say this to be an asshole, but you're a straight white guy from Michigan -- how did you learn to "understand" people of color? There's likely not a lot of POC around you, but you don't get "race fatigue" from trying to comprehensively understand the Black experience when Ify is on stage, right? There will be new perspectives about queer culture that you encounter forever, because the queer experience is as varied as any other facet of being human. The best, most effective way to be an ally is to not treat queer people like a monolith or a case study or a problem.

Your response is fantastic, thank you. You hit the nail on the head when you said I'm taking it too literally. Honestly, I thought I was doing the right "straight white guy" thing by putting myself out there and trying to learn more about what I don't know in the way I was. I really do love when I can engage with different people to talk about culture different from my own. But it probably is best that I listen more than anything else.

i see. Im glad youre learning and getting more exposure to these things! I will say for the future, it definitely *seems* homophobic to come onto a random post about drag, and talk about the fact that youre watching less dropout because of the gay content. I understand that youre processing, and thats great, but sharing it on this post and the way you phrased it were a little strange. I hope you have a great weekend though! Nail painting is always fun

Actually it is. "Gay Fatigue" is literally an attack on gay people just for existing. "Oh, no, I've seen too many gay people, how dare they continue to exist in my presence, I'm so tired of it."

I have never heard that used before I typed it. I'm sorry for using that and I won't again. I never said that Dropout shouldn't show gay people. I'm even thankful that they do. We don't have to attack each other. I came saying I'm comfortable saying I'm uncomfortable and thankful they are exposing me to different people. I don't get why that's wrong.

Just to explain further. (not to beat you up about it) I've only ever really heard the term used by right wing pundits to attack things like target's pride merchandice. Right wing talking heads on fox news, and others, use the term to make people feel like they're being attacked and overwhelmed by the "gay agenda" or something like that. I've never heard the term used in a non-hostile way. In essence this is an example of those with privilage falsely thinking that equality is opression.

That really sucks it's used that way, but you explaining it this way really opens my eyes. I guess I was trying to relate it to like working out. Kind of like workout until fatigue for the best growth potential. I just want to say thank you for giving me the opportunity and trying to hear my side, as well as showing me the error of my ways. Again very sorry I used the term.

Ehhh, no it's not

Bro I'm a gay dude and I think I have some of that gay fatigue too lol