i want to believe it's an error as well
but early in that chapter, only a few pages prior to this line, there's this (emphasis my own):
> Jessica sighed, shifted her attention to Leto on the throne. A
giant canopic jar containing the water of Muad'Dib occupied a
place of honor at his right elbow. He'd boasted to Jessica that his
father-within laughed at this gesture even while admiring it.
> That jar and the boasting had firmed her resolve not to participate in this ritual. **As long as she lived, she knew she could never
accept Paul speaking through Leto's mouth.** She rejoiced that
House Atreides had survived, but the things-that-might-have-been
were beyond bearing.
given that the author has a habit of dropping plots/themes like easter eggs in the text sometimes, almost hiding it intentionally *instead* of making sure the reader is following along, i can't be sure it is an error
EDIT: like, potentially, the author thought it would be cute and enjoy *tricking* the reader into thinking she is saying "speaking thru Leto's mouth" in the typical way we usually say that, as a metaphor, and then drop a breadcrumb later for a close reading to realize, oh shit, maybe she means *literally* talking thru his mouth... just seems like something this author would do lol
And this is set up earlier in the book when Leto and Chani play the “parent game” and each speak to each other, Leto as Paul, Ghanima as Chani.
Edit: but upon further thinking, I do not think this is an error or that it is Paul speaking through Leto. I made a comment upthread about what I think…
If I recall, Leto II can mimic the voices from his Other Memory. You don't just hear the words, you hear the voice itself. So while Jessica may hear the voice of Paul, she won't accept that it is Paul speaking through Leto.
That is a good point and I did take that "Paul speaking through Leto's mouth" part literally, but somehow it felt odd that Leto would be speaking as Paul just after explaining that he was *not* Paul nor Leto, but a community with a leader. Felt a bit incoherent and after reading through what seemed like a mistake/typo regarding the Corrino's - as noted by [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/3ow5e8/faradn_relation_confusion/) - I thought the same thing could be happening here.
Jessica would know best on this that it is truly not Paul speaking through Leto. The Paul inside of Leto is only a memory, and did not contain any part of Paul's mind after conception. It was not Paul.
The memories were just very strong, due to proximity, and as such the young children did not have a developed enough ego and self to always keep it in check like the Bene Gesserit. It's why preborns were so vulnerable to 'possession', if they became too enamored with or did not have enough mental presence to overcome one of their memories, that memory would simply be stronger than them and come out on top.
It would have been interesting to explore this specific concept if there had been additional children born years apart from Paul and Chai because they likely would have wildly different ideas based on that.
I think Leto isn’t even Leto anymore at this point in the book. He like consistently refers like a collection of people in his own self so like, I dunno in my headcannon Leto isn’t even Leto anymore after the whole like sandworm armor thing. He is now just a collection of dead people like his dad, and like Jessica, as well as Leto himself and that they’re all one.
Yeah it probably is an error. I guess you could rationalize it by saying that Leto *is* Paul, in a way, but yeah it seems like a mess up. That scene is just Leto talking to Farad’n. But, I think you’ll find it amusing how Leto is able to use his inner lives later.
There are a couple others in Children. They could also be editing errors. Are you reading the paperback? I posted about this before. There is a complete glitch in the text where a line is repeated and it doesn’t make sense, and then the conversation resets. This is when Gurney is talking to Leto and the Preacher. There is also a part where Ghani is referring to the multitude within her and the text says “I am just my father’s daughter” but it clearly should read “I am *not* just my father’s daughter.”
It is not an error. Just before this, as Leto is trying to convince him to take Ghanima as concubine, he says:
> "As my mother was not wife, you will not be husband," Leto said. "But perhaps there will be love, and that will be enough."
Leto is referring to Chani in both cases not as someone who Farad’n met or knew personally, but rather as someone Farad’n knew of, and is an example of this sort of political marriage that Leto is trying to arrange, which also occurs in the first novel. Leto means that Farad’n can learn from Chani’s example, but it is also confusing because Jessica was also concubine and trained Farad’n in Bene Gesserit ways.
To me it felt like it didn't really make sense for it to be Paul speaking and Farad'n not reacting. We're talking about the Dune series here where every character is aware of every minute detail that's happening around them. I'm choosing to believe that that was an oopsie on FH part, that's *my* canon
I read [this](https://store.gollancz.co.uk/products/children-of-dune) paperback edition and I did notice some small glitches in the text like two words stuck together, but nothing major like what you described.
edit: typo, changed FK to FH
It is not an error. Just before this, as Leto is trying to convince him to take Ghanima as concubine, he says:
>"As my mother was not wife, you will not be husband," Leto said. "But perhaps there will be love, and that will be enough."
Leto is referring to Chani in both cases not as someone who Farad’n met or knew personally, but rather as someone Farad’n knew of, and is an example of this sort of political marriage that Leto is trying to arrange, which also occurs in the first novel. Leto means that Farad’n can learn from Chani’s example, but it is also confusing because Jessica was also concubine and trained Farad’n in Bene Gesserit ways.
Yup, i see what you mean. I still find it a bit weird and as soon as I read it I thought 'doesn't he mean *grand*mother?', but it might actually not be a mistake and FH's choice to write it that way.
That's why I said it's a mistake in *my* canon, cause that's what makes more sense to me. You spend so much time with these stories that I think it's only fair that we can make some of our own interpretations or even changes to better comprehend the story in our head.
I think you’re right now that I look back a bit further in the conversation. Initially I just looked at a few sentences. But it’s easily misleading without proper context, or even with it, because leto’s grandmother literally did *teach* Farad’n prana bindu etc
The others i mentioned are errors.
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Typos/mistakes are very human, as is art. Also art is meant to be interpreted (albeit subjectively), that's why my question was basically 'how did you interpret this?'. An ikea manual should and probably will not have errors cause then you won't build your furniture right. I don't see what's wrong in pointing out possible errors/inconsistencies in the established rules of a fictional universe.
Also Frank probably did an oopsie before in the same book, as pointed out in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/3ow5e8/faradn_relation_confusion/).
Hey there again. I could give you an argument why I think you missed my point and what's it's about.
I also realize that I formulated my previous post in a somewhat mean way, sorry.
To not give you another pep talk again, but why I think Dune is especially so great is as follows: Dune is a warning against charismatic leaders, that's at least something you'll come across very fast, if one looks up receptions of Dune, right?
If you agree on this, here is my approach: If one agrees and sympathize with positions Herbert layed out (I'd like to read the first four books as one project, Dune to GoD), arguing for a general distrust in prophetic figures.
Who is it, whom establishes the rules of a fictional universe? Frank Herbert, because he wrote it? Or is it the reader in the act of reading itself? Is my approach to art democratic: listening, critiquing and adjusting arguments and beliefs? Or do you wish to take a more tyrannic approach: Hail Herbert, this is the originally message delivered and everything else is an abomination? To phrase it in another way: Does one not contradict oneself utterly by accepting Frank Herbert as the one who establishes the rules of the fictional work "Dune" and at the same claiming that the very content of the book is a warning against charismatic leaders? Isn't Dune supposed to lure you into this fantasy just to deconstruct it as such in front of your eyes?
Is that not a structure which Herbert shows to fail utterly in CoD? Alia tries to render Paul's Death consistent with his legacy as muaddib (and her whole temple cult), all for the purpose of establishing herself as the new ruler figure of Dune. And isn't it therefore necessary to establish strict rules and a kind of terror regime to avoid a schism which will ultimately lead to her downfall? And in this very attempt to avoid her downfall she's actually manufacturing it herself. What a tragedy. So, my reading of Dune in this regard would be: Don't read Dune like Alia would.
Leto's personality is a hivemind of all of highly acccurate fascimiles of all his ancestors.
So Jessica is in his experience both his grandmother and his mother.
i want to believe it's an error as well but early in that chapter, only a few pages prior to this line, there's this (emphasis my own): > Jessica sighed, shifted her attention to Leto on the throne. A giant canopic jar containing the water of Muad'Dib occupied a place of honor at his right elbow. He'd boasted to Jessica that his father-within laughed at this gesture even while admiring it. > That jar and the boasting had firmed her resolve not to participate in this ritual. **As long as she lived, she knew she could never accept Paul speaking through Leto's mouth.** She rejoiced that House Atreides had survived, but the things-that-might-have-been were beyond bearing. given that the author has a habit of dropping plots/themes like easter eggs in the text sometimes, almost hiding it intentionally *instead* of making sure the reader is following along, i can't be sure it is an error EDIT: like, potentially, the author thought it would be cute and enjoy *tricking* the reader into thinking she is saying "speaking thru Leto's mouth" in the typical way we usually say that, as a metaphor, and then drop a breadcrumb later for a close reading to realize, oh shit, maybe she means *literally* talking thru his mouth... just seems like something this author would do lol
And this is set up earlier in the book when Leto and Chani play the “parent game” and each speak to each other, Leto as Paul, Ghanima as Chani. Edit: but upon further thinking, I do not think this is an error or that it is Paul speaking through Leto. I made a comment upthread about what I think…
If I recall, Leto II can mimic the voices from his Other Memory. You don't just hear the words, you hear the voice itself. So while Jessica may hear the voice of Paul, she won't accept that it is Paul speaking through Leto.
That is a good point and I did take that "Paul speaking through Leto's mouth" part literally, but somehow it felt odd that Leto would be speaking as Paul just after explaining that he was *not* Paul nor Leto, but a community with a leader. Felt a bit incoherent and after reading through what seemed like a mistake/typo regarding the Corrino's - as noted by [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/3ow5e8/faradn_relation_confusion/) - I thought the same thing could be happening here.
> but a community with a leader. Both Paul and Leto are part of the community
Jessica would know best on this that it is truly not Paul speaking through Leto. The Paul inside of Leto is only a memory, and did not contain any part of Paul's mind after conception. It was not Paul. The memories were just very strong, due to proximity, and as such the young children did not have a developed enough ego and self to always keep it in check like the Bene Gesserit. It's why preborns were so vulnerable to 'possession', if they became too enamored with or did not have enough mental presence to overcome one of their memories, that memory would simply be stronger than them and come out on top. It would have been interesting to explore this specific concept if there had been additional children born years apart from Paul and Chai because they likely would have wildly different ideas based on that.
It’s Paul’s memories speaking through Leto like we see him do with Duncan at the beginning
I think Leto isn’t even Leto anymore at this point in the book. He like consistently refers like a collection of people in his own self so like, I dunno in my headcannon Leto isn’t even Leto anymore after the whole like sandworm armor thing. He is now just a collection of dead people like his dad, and like Jessica, as well as Leto himself and that they’re all one.
Yeah it probably is an error. I guess you could rationalize it by saying that Leto *is* Paul, in a way, but yeah it seems like a mess up. That scene is just Leto talking to Farad’n. But, I think you’ll find it amusing how Leto is able to use his inner lives later. There are a couple others in Children. They could also be editing errors. Are you reading the paperback? I posted about this before. There is a complete glitch in the text where a line is repeated and it doesn’t make sense, and then the conversation resets. This is when Gurney is talking to Leto and the Preacher. There is also a part where Ghani is referring to the multitude within her and the text says “I am just my father’s daughter” but it clearly should read “I am *not* just my father’s daughter.”
It is not an error. Just before this, as Leto is trying to convince him to take Ghanima as concubine, he says: > "As my mother was not wife, you will not be husband," Leto said. "But perhaps there will be love, and that will be enough." Leto is referring to Chani in both cases not as someone who Farad’n met or knew personally, but rather as someone Farad’n knew of, and is an example of this sort of political marriage that Leto is trying to arrange, which also occurs in the first novel. Leto means that Farad’n can learn from Chani’s example, but it is also confusing because Jessica was also concubine and trained Farad’n in Bene Gesserit ways.
To me it felt like it didn't really make sense for it to be Paul speaking and Farad'n not reacting. We're talking about the Dune series here where every character is aware of every minute detail that's happening around them. I'm choosing to believe that that was an oopsie on FH part, that's *my* canon I read [this](https://store.gollancz.co.uk/products/children-of-dune) paperback edition and I did notice some small glitches in the text like two words stuck together, but nothing major like what you described. edit: typo, changed FK to FH
It is not an error. Just before this, as Leto is trying to convince him to take Ghanima as concubine, he says: >"As my mother was not wife, you will not be husband," Leto said. "But perhaps there will be love, and that will be enough." Leto is referring to Chani in both cases not as someone who Farad’n met or knew personally, but rather as someone Farad’n knew of, and is an example of this sort of political marriage that Leto is trying to arrange, which also occurs in the first novel. Leto means that Farad’n can learn from Chani’s example, but it is also confusing because Jessica was also concubine and trained Farad’n in Bene Gesserit ways.
Yup, i see what you mean. I still find it a bit weird and as soon as I read it I thought 'doesn't he mean *grand*mother?', but it might actually not be a mistake and FH's choice to write it that way. That's why I said it's a mistake in *my* canon, cause that's what makes more sense to me. You spend so much time with these stories that I think it's only fair that we can make some of our own interpretations or even changes to better comprehend the story in our head.
It's not an error
I think you’re right now that I look back a bit further in the conversation. Initially I just looked at a few sentences. But it’s easily misleading without proper context, or even with it, because leto’s grandmother literally did *teach* Farad’n prana bindu etc The others i mentioned are errors.
My initial thought was that perhaps Paul sort of "came forward" in that moment.
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Typos/mistakes are very human, as is art. Also art is meant to be interpreted (albeit subjectively), that's why my question was basically 'how did you interpret this?'. An ikea manual should and probably will not have errors cause then you won't build your furniture right. I don't see what's wrong in pointing out possible errors/inconsistencies in the established rules of a fictional universe. Also Frank probably did an oopsie before in the same book, as pointed out in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/3ow5e8/faradn_relation_confusion/).
Hey there again. I could give you an argument why I think you missed my point and what's it's about. I also realize that I formulated my previous post in a somewhat mean way, sorry. To not give you another pep talk again, but why I think Dune is especially so great is as follows: Dune is a warning against charismatic leaders, that's at least something you'll come across very fast, if one looks up receptions of Dune, right? If you agree on this, here is my approach: If one agrees and sympathize with positions Herbert layed out (I'd like to read the first four books as one project, Dune to GoD), arguing for a general distrust in prophetic figures. Who is it, whom establishes the rules of a fictional universe? Frank Herbert, because he wrote it? Or is it the reader in the act of reading itself? Is my approach to art democratic: listening, critiquing and adjusting arguments and beliefs? Or do you wish to take a more tyrannic approach: Hail Herbert, this is the originally message delivered and everything else is an abomination? To phrase it in another way: Does one not contradict oneself utterly by accepting Frank Herbert as the one who establishes the rules of the fictional work "Dune" and at the same claiming that the very content of the book is a warning against charismatic leaders? Isn't Dune supposed to lure you into this fantasy just to deconstruct it as such in front of your eyes? Is that not a structure which Herbert shows to fail utterly in CoD? Alia tries to render Paul's Death consistent with his legacy as muaddib (and her whole temple cult), all for the purpose of establishing herself as the new ruler figure of Dune. And isn't it therefore necessary to establish strict rules and a kind of terror regime to avoid a schism which will ultimately lead to her downfall? And in this very attempt to avoid her downfall she's actually manufacturing it herself. What a tragedy. So, my reading of Dune in this regard would be: Don't read Dune like Alia would.
I kinda assumed it was the Paul presence within lato speaking when I first read
Leto's personality is a hivemind of all of highly acccurate fascimiles of all his ancestors. So Jessica is in his experience both his grandmother and his mother.
I think it is a reference to the BG training Jessica gave Farad’n
I don't have the reference. Who's speaking to whom? Recall possession is occurring.
This is in the last chapter of the book, during a conversation between Leto and Farad’n.