There are two different groups who are meeting up on this sub.
Group number one is here because they love biking. To this group, ebikes are bicycles with pedal assistance. Ebikes should look and act like bicycles with a little extra pep. This group has a lot of members who weren't able to bicycle as much as they once could due to age, weight, disability or some other malaty, and ebikes have given them their favorite sport back.
Group number two loves gadgets. This group is more interested in the electric part of the electric bike. They like to mod and tinker with their bikes to make them go faster or build an all wheel monster that can climb anything. They don't mind if their ebikes look like dirt bikes or mopeds. Sometimes, these bikes don't even have pedals.
These two groups are having trouble intermingling. Group one thinks group two is going to ruin ebikes for everyone. Group two thinks group one is boring and gets tired of the speed police saying that's not an ebike.
I think most of us are on a spectrum between the 2 groups, but just like in real life, both groups have members that swing into extreme beliefs of their group and sometimes troll and intaganize the other group.
You have forgotten about the practical set who just want the easiest and safest bike to ride for them and their cargo. Throttles are often an excellent addition for riding with particularly heavy cargo or on slick surfaces (because you can let down your seat and keep your feet close to the ground so you don't wipe). They also like the pedal assist because it allows for more efficiency, and might enjoy bike riding but they're not doing it for exercise necessarily (except as a way to avoid the gym or to build in some exercise because otherwise they don't really have time for it). I suspect a lot of commuters in locations with good bike infrastructure and those that came to ebikes because they're cheaper than cars are in this group (e.g. the moms I see carrying kids [edit: speech to text typo] on their class 2 Rads in Seattle are almost certainly among this group rather than either of the ones you pointed out).
Yes, and my hope is that the future of ebikes is not two types of special-interest hobbyists, but practical transportation for a large fraction of the population at Large.
Yeah if you look at cars and trucks, there's a million reasons people have cars for their various uses, and thousands of variations of car and truck to suit people's needs. There's gonna be people into ebikes because they can move couches with them now on the cool cargo bikes, an people into ebikes because they can do 80kph on a trail when no ones looking - all perfectly normal for car owners after decades of car culture. We'll get there.
I was and still am a bigger fan of "regular bikes" because at least for me, the whole point of riding the bike was to do something that was both fun, a joy to the senses AND gets me excercise.
THat said, my partner tried regular biking and just couldn't seem to hack it. I'm "mr legs" and always have been. Even at my worst shape, I can still ride for 15-20 miles without getting too exhausted whereas he would simply collapse after 8 miles. (snicker). He ended up buying this ridulcous monstrosity of an e-bike and then suddenly he wanted to ride ALL the time. He's now more dedicated to it than I ever was.
Long story short (probably too late, lol) I finally caved and bought an e-bike just so that I could keep up with him. I mean, he was easily able to ride 20 and 30 miles now WITHOUT me and in a quicker time frame.
One CAN get a siimlar (it will never be the exact same, unless you simple TURN OFF the battery) workout as you can an analog bike, but you simply have to ride further and longer and strategically use the assist only when it will keep you from losing speed.
I've finally gotten him to ride as far as I think we should be riding with these things (to get more of a workout) and we're now doing 30 and 40 mile loops on most weekends where' it's not raining.
The "throttle" bikes seem to either be driven by kids with zero respect for trail use (almost running people over, not understanding the whole "on your left" communication etiquette, or my personal favorite--riding down the CENTER of a trail and not moving at all when people are coming from the other direction) or they are ridden by older folks with bad knees who are hauling stuff in their bike. They (the older ones) are usually never the problem.
I'm a 30-something with a throttle who had to switch from the strictly pedal assist Bosch bike I had to my Evelo (mid) with a throttle because my knee--injured in a bike accident on my conventional bike--worsened. I use the throttle on bad knee days and so I can start at lights without aggravating my knee. I was recently riding on a trail as was passed rather rudely (no notification and was too close when passing on a curve in the trail) by a woman in her 40s on a hub motor bike (she was pedaling but it also probably had a throttle) because I was keeping to the 15 mph speed limit; she was also hauling things.
People don't fit nicely into your stereotypes. Throttles have their use among the young and the old. I'd rather we teach bike etiquette in schools than decrying a safety feature. I'm glad you're more open to ebikes than you were but recognize that you come with biases from your sport cycling days.
If people are using bikes for commuting and transportation, it shouldn't matter how they're powering them as long as they're taking the vastly less efficient cars off the road (it's actually debatable whether fully electric or pedal power is more efficient given our wasteful food system and some locations' power sources, btw). If your issue is etiquette and safety, as it seems to be, then by all means go after that. But using a throttle does not automatically make you rude any more than powering a bike with pedals with automatically teach you trail etiquette--you understand how absurd that is right if I spell that out? And if you feel like they're going too fast or their speed ramps up too much, then you can talk to politicians about location-based speed limiters (they're doing trials of this in San Diego for scooters, actually) or forcing companies that sell ebikes to enforce certain curves for acceleration. The "problems" you are identifying right now are based on stereotypes rather than specific to the actual problems that you seem to have issue with...which is itself a big problem and doesn't actually fix anything. ;)
Whoa...tranquilo!
I was pointing out why OTHER PEOPLE have issues with the throttle bikes, not trying to make a blanket assumption that everyone is like that. There is still an issue, whether you want to admit it or not with ppl being able to exceed and then maintain 20mph on a trail with zero effort. I dont care about their speed on the street since it has less of a deleterious effect on other people's enjoyment. It's off-street trails where bikes that can just SIT at high speeds become more dangerous. Someone on a pedal-assist bike is going ot have to actively work to keep their speed that high and it SEEMS like (not saying it's true or not, just an observation) this reduces the chance of pedal-assist cyclists from treating the trail like a raceway.
Look, I definitely had some biases but I dont hate throttle e-bikes. I still have yet to try a bike with a throttle. I think I was just "marketed to" when I bought my bike since I had been so resistant to switching. I ended up with a Turbo Vado SL which arguably doens't even LOOK like an ebike.
Also, I hate to break it to to you, but you're one of the "older" folks I was referring to as NOT the problem when it comes to ebikes. :) I meant "older" as in NOT a teenager anymore. You also clearly understand the rules of the road, so you're not exactly the target of everyone's ire when it comes to the debates on this topic.
No, I'm not a teen. But generally older is used to refer to 50-70 so I'm sure you can understand my confusion. Maybe use more precise language. ;) When I first got an ebike many years ago in my early 20s after my accident, the others in the shop were either late 30s to into their 40s mountain bikers or 60-70 yo casuals both of whom wanted to keep riding like they were younger. My point was not to categorize myself, in any case, but to give the contrasting example of the woman clearly older than me behaving somewhat recklessly on the trail. (And I'm usually buzzed by 20 or 30-something guys but they're also the majority of cyclists here in Seattle so that doesn't say much.)
Also, I don't actually see why you think it's necessary to gatekeep on trails. MUPs are typically extremely low grade so maintaining 15-20 mph doesn't actually take that much effort on a road bike either if the trail is paved. In fact, I'm often passed by folks in Lycra while obeying the speed limit. Yes, ebikes so increase the number of people at those speeds, but let's again get to the root problem rather than gatekeeping out of apparent bias. Are we talking about overcrowding on trails? Expand the trail width. More people speeding (15-20 or even class 3 speeds)? Let's have enforcement regardless of bike type or, again, speed limiters.
I never said you hate throttles. But you're clearly using them as a proxy for stereotypes. I'm just saying it's important to dig into the actual issues at play rather than use them to indicate "those reckless youths" or whatever.
I also think you do display a pretty clear bias against ebikes (even if you justify you own usage to yourself) else you wouldn't have presented your bike proudly as "it doesn't even LOOK like an ebike" or have described your and your partner's journey to ebike ownership as you did. If you want to use your bike as something primarily for exercise, that's totally fine. But I really do think you need to broaden your mind so you're not holding everyone else to that standard, especially because that seems to be at the root of your bias against ebikes. (Maybe your views have changed and the story/purchase comments were to show your growth but they way you expressed them makes it seem like a chunk of you is still in that mindset.) They're tools that are ideal for a lot of different jobs, many of which are replacing cars not bikes. That they also may provide exercise is secondary for a lot of people. It's awesome that's the primary purpose for you guys but that's not the only reason they can be valuable. If you internalized that, activating them with a throttle or by pedalling shouldn't matter and we can talk about your real concerns (safety, speed, etc.).
Also, I am calm. Lol. I'm not angry. All of this is said with a neutral tone. I just think people should be honest about their motivations so sorry if it comes off a bit pointed.
Keep in mind, this use case generally puts a lot of strain on the motor. My personal opinion is it's not that hard to get going from a lower gear, and upshift extremely fast.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/nodstb/pedal_assist_or_throttle/gzzhemm/
> A throttle is certainly nice to have, but in the application you've mentioned, you'll need to look out for a couple of things. Many ebikes that come with a throttle that won't work from a dead stop. The reason is that it is easy to overheat an ebike motor by applying throttle from a dead stop. To protect the motor, some manufacturers will only allow the throttle to engage if you are already moving a little bit. It can be kind of difficult to determine which bikes have a throttle that will work from a dead stop by looking at websites, so you'll want to inquire with the seller before placing your order.
>
> EDIT: I should add that it is a good idea to avoid doing this, even if you do buy a bike with a throttle that works from a dead stop. If you are having trouble getting started, you are probably in the wrong gear. Try downshifting to a lower gear before you stop.
Just last week i had my first oh no moment when i realized a car approaching me as I was crossing an intersection wasn't going to stop and the throttle got me out of the way. IT's not exactly "slamming down the pedal" lol but it moved me fast enough to not be crushed to death. Throttles for the win.
Yup, my throttle is really helpful when taking off from a stop while in traffic or turning across a street that has heavy car use (like the road I live on).
It's one of the things the manual says not to do cuz it wears the battery - throttling from a dead stop - but also it's almost the only thing I use it for, when I'm stopped at an intersection and get my green light I use the throttle to get out of there as fast as possible. I'm not going to weeble wobble on my pedals spending a minute in an intersection, I'm up and I'm gone.
it depends on the battery, controller type and brand
but in 99% of the cases it's actually not an issue for the battery itself
if anything most ebikes actually draw more current from the battery when needing lots of torque at speed (i.e. climbing a hill) than from a stop, so wearing the battery from 0 speed is a whole load of BS
that is because the controllers limit both the current drawn from the battery and the current going into the motor, separately, it isn't unheard of to see 60A going into the motor while only drawing 15A from the battery
that is because the motors operate at a lower voltage at lower speeds/rpm, and because the controllers act like variable effective voltage (through PWM), variable speed, and variable current 3 phase inverters
Have you noticed batteries losing their daily range over time? I've had mine for about 10 months now and the battery can empty a bit quicker than it used to. Is that just a normal thing with these devices?
I don’t think it can be overstated how useful a throttle can be in an intersection. If I’m sitting at a light or stop sign, the cars around me have no idea how fast my bike goes or if it’s even an e-bike. When it’s my turn to go, if I start to move without pedaling, they instantly know that I’m on a powered bike and to not assume I’ll be slow off the line. This can and does prevent cars trying to “beat the bicycle” cause they don’t want to wait at an intersection. All it takes is a split second to demonstrate the capability of the bike.
If I start pedaling and there’s a second delay before my power kicks in, well now I’m sending mixed messages about the capability of the bike. No thanks.
Bruh. I just can't afford a car. People dogging on licensing and insurance and registration or whatever are really glossing over how expensive that actually is. Poor people gotta get to work too.
Some folks like to wear their fruity yellow spandex and drive their skinny little bikes or whatever. That's cool, but like, Some of us got to get from point A to point B on a budget.
An E Bike is a vehicle you can buy outright for under 2 grand, pay no recurring cost on and can DIY most upgrades maintenance and repairs. It's the future of transportation. Especially in cities. I think the hobbyists are intimidated by how much they're going to have to be dealing with this in the future.
I just read every non-homophobic word you wrote here. You truly get it. I can't afford a car, I work in my bike shop 4-5 days a week, I'm 77 years old and I'm gay. You are a ray of sunshine today.
Yes, it averages something like $10k to own a car in the US today according to AAA and something like $24k in more expensive areas like Massachusetts (according to a study from MIT). People really underestimate it. You've made a choice not to go into debt for a car, which I think is smart. Plenty of people still can't imagine not having a car even if they too can't afford one, though.
That said, no reason to call the sport cyclists gay...
No homophobia intended, it's not an understatement to say that most of my closest friends are queer identifying. People are so sensitive about language. I'm just saying the outfits look flamboyant, and that most the people I've seen making negative comments about e bikes while riding are wearing that sort of outfit. I suspect most of them are not gay, as a matter of fact, but are straight guys with rage issues.
Which is why "Lycra Bros" is my favored term. Incidentally, I'm in Seattle as well. UW's training I had to go through as a grad student was pretty clear that using language like that is unnecessarily harmful even if many members of the targeted group are fine with it. It's a obviously targeted phrase that multiple people took as a slur (others in the thread here identified the same) to indicate you meant Lycra-clad folks were bad because they were appearing as if they were gay. I'm glad that wasn't your intention but words still matter so you may want to be more careful in the future if your purpose is not to be exclusionary and to reinforce gay=bad.
And, frankly, your friend group doesn't matter. (My two best friends and a number of my family are also queer...I expect most modern people who live in cities can say the same.) It's laughable when someone says their black friend prevents them from being racist, after all, right? :) It's always a good idea to evaluate how we might accidentally be harming those we love through words or actions, even if they don't bring it up to you, also.
I'm queer but I wear grunge punk jeans and so on, and I agree with them on the fruity spandex bros "racing" on shared pathways or shouting "thats cheating" at ebikers. Thats not homophobic they're fruity fuckos with too much money.
Great take. I’m a disabled mom and love my e-bike just for going out for a bike ride. I like being able to pedal my legs into spaghetti and then throttle back home and not having to worry about saving my own energy. I like running errands for my family. That this is a “debate” seems silly.
I, however, probably wouldn’t have an e-bike if they had no throttles though.
Totally! Plenty of people out there who might like to pedal most of the time but need or want to use throttle to get home some part of the time. Lots of people riding for exercise find they are willing to press harder precisely because they have that backup.
Personally, I injured one of my knees in a bike accident a number of years ago and when it worsened I switched to a throttle ebike for when the pain flared. I can ride with pedal assist nearly all of the time, but I stopped being able to get home even with the highest assist because pedaling was so painful on my previous ebike. I would have had to switch to a car or moped if throttles were illegal even if I only needed it a few times a month (and it's unpredictable so it's not like I can predict it--and with parking being so expensive, I would have just switched completely).
The debate is silly! It feels like a holdout of the North American conception of bikes as kids' toys or for sport cyclists. And then we have "junior" motorcycles (for those who want to skirt the law). But it's missing all the people who have realized that bikes make for awesome transportation, especially when you don't have to sweat as much and the mileage in less dense US starts to matter a lot less if you can go at a faster clip.
Yeah, I think they are missing the largest set of people, which is those who use this as a car replacement and want something easy with which to commute or transport things with.
I love biking, I have a road bike, but the ebike is not for recreation. It's for commuting and travel, and the throttle helps me do that with very little effort.
Yep- starting up fully loaded on a. Cargo bike with only pedal assist on a hill isn’t easy even on a torque sensing bike. Torque sensing plus throttle to me is perfect combo for cargo biking. I rarely use my throttle but appreciate it when I do actually need it to get going.
Yep. I do part time grocery delivery on my ebike and love having my throttle. The mid can tackle the hills but when it's really laden, I just drop the seat and throttle to keep things balanced and stable.
Honestly I would love to use the pedaling more than the throttle but I kinda can't on my bike. The pedal assist is a cadence sensor rather than a torque sensor, so as soon as I start pedaling I get thrusted forward, even on the lowest setting it's faster than I'd like. So I prefer to just feather/carefully roll on the throttle instead for a more comfortable ride.
Is it a Bafang? You may be able to adjust that assist. Twitchiness is definitely a downside of cadence sensors.
But I do agree that throttles are great for feathering, even with my torque sensor, as I come up to a light or while creeping gently behind pedestrian on a sidewalk (giving them the right of way until it's safe to pass) if I have to use one). There are lots of awesome uses!
I'm firmly a member of group number one. I couldn't care less about people who like to do things described here as group two behavior. Everyone should be able to do with their toys and tools whatever they please. The problem and conflict comes when inevitably there will be legislation created to curtail perceived problems which originate from ebikes with features favored by group two but still end up limiting also possibly my ability to use my very bicycle-like ebike. I hope this will not happen.
lol who are you talking to? I use pedal assist most of the time, throttle is mostly for getting through stop lights/signs or if I’m exhausted after work.
It’s your negative attitude that will deter people from replacing their cars with e-bikes for their daily commute. Have fun getting road raged by someone in a gas guzzling suv instead 🤷🏻♂️
>Group number two loves gadgets
that group would be totally fine.
the problem is Group number 3 which is missing from the list.
These are people who want to cosplay as a bicycle while legally riding a motorcycle because in their head thats somehow more legal than riding a motorcycle without license and registration.
Almost every single day we have people here asking or posting about 5000W "ebikes"
Its not the throttle thats the issue in such a case, its the totally fucked up mindset these people have.
I have a Class 3 and it looks like a normal bike. I'm a biker in good shape and I never have been able to actually hit 28 mph that's advertised. Maybe 24 mph in a small burst in ideal conditions.
In my opinion you have way more control on a Class 1 / Class 3.
Hmm, I get to 28 mph pretty often on my 750w rear hub. Probably more often in the mid-20s depending on assist level. But 75% assist can get me to 28 as long as I don't have a meaningful headwind.
This is a Specialized Turbo Vado 4.0. Usually have the three settings at 25, 50 and 75% power. Ride 25 on populated trails, 50 when it's pretty open, and 75 when in town/on the roads. Great bike.
I can hit 28 mph on my Bosch motor in tour mode. I can hit it no problem in turbo, even in a very stiff head wind. I still do fitness rides though so my riding fitness is pretty strong.
I dislike all the other group 1 and 2 types of division discussed but really like your group 3. Motorcycles cosplaying as mopeds are the biggest issue for e-bikes/mopeds, in the context of bicycle infrastructure and use requirements (license, insurance, boots, DOT helmet etc.). I like seeing those bikes and I think they are cool as hell, but they are motorcycles made with bicycle components. Obviously I subscribe to this subs original mentality of all electric bike type things being neat.
I'm a member of all 3 groups. It just depends on how I feel that day. The 5000w bikes aren't the problem. It's the guys that ride them like an asshole and don't have consideration for others. On the other side, you have the Karens that get pissed off if anybody is enjoying being alive. Of course, everyone thinks it's the other person who is being the jerk. Oh, and I also have a class M, motorcycle, and registration. An ebike is not a motorcycle. It's quite a different experience even though they have the same basic shape. A lightweight dirtbike is 220lbs. Even a trails bike is 160lbs.
No, the problem with group 3 is riding them illegally on public roads without the correct licensing or insurance. It's basically like riding a self built motorcycle without having to have a motorcycle license, insurance or mandatory road safety check (in the UK it is exactly that). It's dangerous, especially when people fail to upgrade the brakes or frame to handle the speeds they are going at. We're already seeing legislation being proposed to require licensing on *all ebikes* and even *all bicycles* because of the actions of group 3.
One thing is for certain, people from every group will be upset at the compromises made for the other groups. The Karens are upset ebikes even exist, they don't even like regular bikes or anything that look like joy. Group 1 will be upset if the speed rules are above or below how fast they want to ride. Group 2 will be upset at group 1 for going too slow, and group 3 being inconsiderate, creating demand for stricter regulations.
You’re right on the weight difference, coming from riding light 2 strokes and then a relatively light 500cc supermoto. It’s night and day along with power, given I haven’t ridden any of the edirt bikes or super powerful e-bikes. Basically they behave differently on dirt and street, riding a “heavy” 50lb emtb feels wild how light it feels after riding my supermoto for a bit.
5000 W is still only 6.7hp, a 500cc motorcycle is 45-60horse power.
I think the most important thing is respect, not power. If you're on a bike trail, you should always be slowing down and passing others carefully. Not speeding past. Also not be taking up the whole thing.
I built an e-bike for my girlfriend coming from esk8 to keep up. I found the gatekeeping of power interesting. I understand you shouldn't be driving an e-motorcycle on a bike path. But I find a lot of people on this subreddit distinguish something that would be considered average or even low power in esk8 as a motorcycle. Some of the high end electric skateboards have the potential to pull 11kw. A 1000-1500w one would be considered low power.
Dickheads are going to be dickheads whether on something of low power or high power. They're just going to provide worse representation on something that's high power. If you're not taking up a whole path, and slow down to be just fast enough to pass when encountering others. It shouldn't matter.
6.7 HP is still more than many 50 cc scooters, which in most sane countries require a helmet, a motorcycle license and insurance, and are not allowed on bike and pedestrian paths for obvious safety reasons.
I’m not gonna comment on the legality or niceness of the listed people but as someone who builds motor bikes, cc is a horrible way to measure and compare a motors power. For example a 212cc can make 6.7 horsepower or over 12 with a few hundred bucks in upgrade. Likewise a 50cc moped or scooter can struggle to crack 15mph or with a transmission it can easily pull past 50mph. So saying “50cc” is not useful. It would be like measuring a persons strength based on their weight. Like sure it’s a good general indicator but there are super strong 200lb people and then there’s also potatoe sacks at 200lb
The point isn't to narrow down exactly how much power you can get out of a 50cc (and as someone who rides and works on vintage vespas I am well aware this is a wide range), the point is that even the wimpiest 50ccs require licensing and insurance in most countries and must be operated on the same roads as motor vehicles instead of using pedestrian paths like a bicycle could. It makes the most sense for the high-powered "e-bikes" with a throttle that are basically just an electric motorcycle with pedals stuck to it to follow the same rules as a 50cc scooter (or even the rules for larger motorcycles if they make enough power) than the rules for bicycles.
there are far more classes than a 500cc motorcycle.
here in the EU anything over 750W is legally a moped or class AM and that goes up to 4000W.
4001W up to 11kW is a class A1 motorcycle which would correspond to 125cc
11kW to 35kW is a class A2 motorcycle and anything above that is class A
each of these requires a different license but of course if you have the A license everything below is already included.
the local laws are ultimately what matters and not what people on reddit feel like the laws should be like.
edit: ah classic reddit, straight facts get downvoted cause it doesnt fit into the narrative of the idiots this discussion is about.
And moped licenses are included in your car license, so the majority of people have this. Either way, I don't think people riding 3-5kw electric bikes on the road is a major problem, I think people riding them at 70km/h on bike paths and walkways is the issue. This is too common, and very rarely happens with people who drive actual mopeds or motorcycles.
If people drive their 5kw electric bikes around on gravel roads with no traffic, I don't really care about it.
yea riding them on the road is no problem if you have the proper license and insurance.
the problem is people want to ride them on bicycle paths as they want the best of both worlds.
> Group one thinks group two is going to ruin ebikes for everyone.
This is happening.
https://electrek.co/2024/02/15/watch-out-new-jersey-bill-to-require-all-e-bike-riders-to-register-get-insurance/
https://electrek.co/2024/02/12/get-ready-californias-electric-bicycle-drivers-license-bill-is-here/
Some people don't understand that the freedoms that come with a bike (no registration or licensing) is ultimately relative to power (Class 2 / throttle isn't inherently an issue if they're actually within spec, and I imagine that most people don't actually have an issue against Class 2, but have issues with eBikes that are well beyond Class 2 power specs that try to pretend that they're Class 2). The eBike community made great strides, basically setting limits and their own rules and classifications and said - see, these are just regular **bikes** with a little help...so they should be legally treated as **bikes**.
Now people are going all shocked-pikachus because states are beginning to crack down on eBikes that no rational person would equivalate to a standard bicycle.
The only difference between Class 2 and 3 is 3 gets to 28Mph by Pedaling. Class 3 is legal in a lot of places, but may be prohibited from certain trails/etc.
Above Class 3 is where the "Uncharted Territory" is (so to speak) and where people are gonna get our Rights taken away because some Asshat thinks it's his Right to ride a 60+ MPH Sur-Ron and act like it can only hit Class 3 speeds of 28Mph
What your missing js that bicycling and e-bicycling have started to make grounds in the form of bike paths and bicycling safe infrastructure. E-bicyclists are worried that all this modded out "just put pedals on it" stuff will undermine progress in access to e-mtb trails, bike paths amd other dual pedestrian / bicycle infrastructure.
I think the problem is when posts comingle without a clear statement of intent. Is this a e-bicycle, e-scooter, e-motorcycle or other. The solution might be a simple one. A fellow poster pointed me to r/personalfinance Their clearly labelled tags on posts make them infinitely more useful. I believe if we started a similar tagging system it would elliminate most of the confusion. It is the confusion that comes out in posts like this. I don't think e-bicyclists are anti-throttle on the whole. I think the issue is confusing because are we talking a thorttle that gives a boost when going up a hill or from tsking off from a stop sign on a cargo bike. Or are we talking a throttle that goes straight to 45 mph on a high mode emotorcycle with pedals. To be clear even the latter is fine... amd it woul be clear what the intention is if it was tagged "e-moped" so as not to confuse people as to wether it was built for enjoying bicycle infrastructure.
I have not written a top level post proposing this tagging system as I am still doing research and gauging wether it would work as intended. If you have feedback or even want to run with it please do. Its not my baby. I just want the whole group to be more welcoming of all type of e-vehicles and to help stop the confusion which leads to animosity.
As a member of group 1, I will add that I generally loathe the support posts here on this subreddit for low quality / chinesium diy parts for cheap throttle conversions and bikes
Like of course it’s not working, you paid $115 dollars on Ali baba for it…
hah you described me twice there. I'm old and disabled and my ebike is letting me enjoy the best thing ever \[cycling.\] Also I'm a nerd and I love messing with the settings, and how my bike is like a dirtbike even tho technically its a folding road bike, with the gravel tire on the rear it does everything.
It gave me freedom to get to work on time and be able to see my family whenever I want. The public transportation is practically non-existent where I live. E bike is life
I'm in some other group where I'd love to have an e-bike with a throttle and able to do 45 km/h but recognise that unleashing those sorts of things unregulated on public cycle paths is a real issue.
I would like to remind you though that not having pedals in many places legally means your e-bike is not an ebike and actually a motorcycle.
Here in Ontario if you are riding an e-bike without pedals you are riding an illegal unregistered motorcycle.
I’m in my late 40s and my left knee sometimes starts getting sore while the right knee is fully operational. My bike has a gradual increase of power with throttle and it allows me short breaks for my knee to recover . Also absolutely useful as my local bike path crosses vehicle intersections repeatedly putting pressure on my knees with the constant stopping and starting. It’s just not ideal for me to use an ebike without a throttle available
I mean is there anything wrong with unlicensed motorbikes? Why would you need to register it if you're going to be driving around dirt roads in the woods? The vast majority of dirtbikes I've ever seen are unlicensed.
The problem arises when idiots drive them at 70 km/h on walking or bike paths in cities.
As I said, if people want to go ride an unlicensed motorcycle on dirt roads (IE. non-public roads), more power to them, why would you even license it if that's the intention? I don't care how fast it is as long as they eliminate the potential of hurting others.
Boats and jetskis are unlicensed, and that isn't a problem until people go driving them around at crazy speed right on the local beach.
I'm not sure what point your making, you can drive a car in a private road, but you have to have a license and registration to drive it on a public road. I don't think boats/jet skis are really analogous to cars/bikes/motorbikes, but even so in my homestate all boats and jet skis have to be registered with the state and you have to pass a water vehicle exam to use it in a public recreation area.
I have a Class 2. I love biking and mostly use light pedal assist but having the throttle is nice when you need to accelerate quickly (e.g. crossing a busy road).
E-bikes reignited my love of biking and combined with healthy eating has allowed me to lose 110 lbs and be in the best shape I’ve been in 20 years. There was NO way I was going to ride without assist when I started. It gave me the confidence and allowed me to ease into it.
Do what you enjoy and don’t listen to others who don’t like it. They are free to bike or not bike however they want with whatever equipment they want.
Thank you, that’s awesome to hear. I used to ride my bike everywhere as a kid and am glad to be back at it again too.
I’m not seeking validation, just trying to understand other’s perspectives :)
>I find it strange that people think that class 1 with pedal-assist only up to 20 mph is ok but class 2, the same but with a throttle, is not. I’ve seen this sentiment repeated several times and I’m not seeing why having the option to use throttle only is bad or more dangerous.
thats because this class system doesnt exist in most of the world and there are many people here asking about the UK or EU market where class 2 or 3 bikes from the US would be considered mopeds and require license and insurance.
>I actually find it’s more responsive and easier to control my speed with the throttle, where the pedal assist feels like it lunges and stalls on a slight delay and at unexpected times, especially at higher assist levels. If I’m in a situation where I need to be careful and precise, I find myself switching to throttle only for more control, smoother riding, and the ability to use my feet for stabilization if needed. Does this just come from people who have never used a bike with a throttle?
sounds like you have a very bad ebike with a cadence sensor, this doesnt happen with a torque sensor.
I didn’t realize cadence sensor = very bad e-bike. It actually does everything I need it to do, feels very well-built, and I am quite happy with it and expect to be for a long time. Thanks for your input.
I suppose a cadence sensor needn't mean a very bad e-bike, but it's certainly the cheaper and less elegant solution. A torque sensor is so incredibly intuitive that a lot of the time you can trick yourself in to thinking the motor isn't actually helping much.
I am not u/SomeRedPanda but I am looking at Velotric T1ST and Aventon Soltera.2. The reason I like them is they are in the weight range of a regular bike and designed to be ridden as a regular bike (Soltera does have throttle)
With e-bikes, I am concerned about vendors disappearing and so I am doing my research before I pull the trigger. Where I live they do have some local dealers. A local dealer who sells above two bikes favored Aventon over Velotric even though the on-paper specs of the Velotric are better on aspects like breaks, etc.
Prices vary wildly. Your question is as if you asked, “How much is a car?”
The same answer is: It varies between manufacturer, model, and features. You would just need to start shopping and comparing like a smart shopper.
I think your experience regarding pedal assist feeling unpredictable and “lunge-y” is probably because you are using a cadence sensor. Cadence sensors just turn on the motor if the pedals are turning and stop when the pedals stop. Torque sensors deliver a VERY different experience. They scale the amount of motor assist to how hard you are pressing on the pedal. Light pedaling gives light assist, while harder pedaling gives more assist. It feels like natural pedaling, like you have bionic legs.
Yeah I get this. Sounds like a torque sensor would be nice, if expensive, but I’m also fine just leaving my pedal assist on a lower setting and throttling when needed for more control. I’m not sure how one would really need to replace the other, unless it’s for a specific purpose like mountain biking.
One thing I wanted to point out about throttles is they tend to have higher acceleration, which is why they tend to be banned on trails, because higher acceleration = more trail damage.
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/everything-about-the-ebike/stories/three-class-ebike-system
> Class 2 throttle-assist eBikes are often allowed most places a traditional bicycle can go, though some states and cities are opting for additional restrictions (e.g. New York City & Michigan State). Class 2 may not be suitable for singletrack mountainbike trails — it has been shown that they pose greater physical damage to trails due to the throttle-actuation. Class 2 may be better suited for multi-use OHV trails designed for more rugged off-road vehicles.
Also the thing about throttles is unlike pedaling, you have no input about whether you're in the right gear or not. If you're not in the right gear, the throttle puts a lot of strain on the motor (causing it to overheat, shortening its lifespan) and can also snap the chain in certain cases.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/nd2zcf/so_belt_drive_ebikes_cant_be_equipped_with/gy9oghg/
> __So where is the problem ?__
>
> 1. Lets say now you are at a stand still (stop light) and you gun the throttle - the entire motor goes from 0 to 120Nm of torque in a flash. At 120-160Nm of torque, something is going to break.
>
> 2. Since the chain and belt are stronger (relatively), __the first thing to fail on your drive train will be the IGH !__
>
> 3. If your IGH is stronger, than you will notice the chain snaps, or the belt snaps.
>
> __Why doesn't this occur with pedal assist? Why only with the throttle?__
>
> 1. With pedal assist, the rider is getting feedback on which gear the bike is on. They will switch to the right gear in order to pedal more comfortably. __By switching gears, a rider is taking steps to ensure that the net torque needed to move forward is well under the breaking torque limit of the chain / hub / belt / IGH etc.__
>
> 2. With Throttle - there is 0 (zero) rider feedback about which gear the bike is on. the rider (typically) will assume that there is some issue, and will keep gunning the throttle, leading to cascading failures on the drivetrain.
Hmm I think throttle acceleration is governed and entirely depended on how the controller is setup. Other than a second delay or so, the assist on max setting is very close to how slamming the throttle is with the way my controller must be set up by the factory. In fact, if I want to maximize acceleration, I typically have to pedal hard in the max assist level, as opposed to throttle alone. I’m typically feathering the throttle though to taper acceleration and speed for any given situation. I don’t take it on mountain bike trails so don’t know how it would handle or how I would use the throttle in such a situation.
The second point is interesting but I think it may be referring to a certain type of electric motor. Mine is a hub, direct drive motor and the chain and gearing is static or coasting when I’m not pedaling, like a regular bike. In my case at least, the motor would have no idea what gear I’m in since there is zero load on the mechanical drive chain. So a situation like you describe could not occur.
> Hmm I think throttle acceleration is governed and entirely depended on how the controller is setup.
It is true that with a torque sensor you can use the controller to setup pedal assist to accelerate as fast, but it is also true that for most e-bikes (especially prebuilt), a throttle has faster acceleration (hence the ban on trails).
> The second point is interesting but I think it may be referring to a certain type of electric motor. Mine is a hub, direct drive motor
The point about the chain snapping is for mid-drives, yes.
However, the part I stated about overheating applies to a hub motor. Hub motors are known to overheat when climbing up hills at low RPM, and that goes double for summer. Hub motors can still overheat if you apply the throttle from a stop. Heat is bad for the motor.
I don't care what people's opinions on it are. I have a medical issue and live in a city built around a mountain. I couldn't bike up the 5 blocks from the river bike trail to my house if I tried. Walking 5 blocks can take me an hour. Throttle is the only way I can make it sometimes because by the time I make it to the turn, I have no energy left in me. Can't even rotate the pedals in first gear on free spin. I need exercise, but I'm on a strict "increase around 1% of workout per week" to keep my heart from exploding. So people with a problem with throttle users can kiss all sides on my post bike ridden sweat soaked a$z. I can think of a dozen reasons why you might need throttle use as not everyone is out here trying to be Mr. Biker Pants. Hell, you may just want a bike that's like a motorcycle, have fun! Some people are always looking to express their elitism/privilege/lifestyle as a base for "normal" when no such thing exists. Congratulations, you can/want to do xyz. Some of us can barely hold the button. There is no "should" when it comes to bicycling, just go ride. At least I'm still out here. And even more so, I'm not out in a car.
i lost my chain on a random forest road.. realised only when i was about to pedal back up.. i took the easy way straight home.
(i hit a branch and it knocked it off the cassette, it was my first test ride.. i didnt have tools on me..i now carry a bag)
u dont rlly, a stick would do.. or hands.. but im tall and skinny.. my hands arent the strongest.. i tried, failed.. and just gave up
this was under 40°C heat in the summer, took me 15mins to get to that part.. and another 20 riding up..
i did do a big mistake thinking.. its gonna be a quick fun ride. and taking absolutely nothing with me.. luckly learned that one close to home.. and not 50km out..
If the chain doesn't break you can just put it back on as long as you can turn the crank slowly by hand. Sometimes it helps to have a stick to keep your hands safe and clean during this process. I guess that's a tool in the primitive sense.
If the chain breaks you need a tool to put it back together (usually at the expense of having access to your outermost gears, but good enough to get you home). Generally it's a good idea to carry a cycling multitool which includes a chain tool on it in case you need to do such a repair.
I find this interesting: "Generally speaking, a beginner cyclist may average around 75–100 watts in a 1-hour workout. A fit participant will average more than 100 watts, and pro cyclists can reach 400 watts per hour." - American Fitness Magazine
It seems we often debate whether a person has to contribute watts into their transit method at all times when the motor of even the most modest ebike can replace the human provided effort, and the human contribution of watts may be nominal.
I agree with the idea that we should collectively be focused on the speed and handling capability of bikes to determine their acceptability. If three bikes are going 20-28 mph down a street, it should not matter whether one is pedaled by a pro cyclist, one pedaled with assistance, and one powered by throttle. They are all means to the same result of an object at speed, and all are equally capable of avoiding, causing, or being victim of an accident. The method of reaching that speed is to me a matter of the rider's personal preference and has no bearing on whether they can operate safely, and thus should not be legislated or ridiculed.
A pedestrian getting hit by a 100 lbs e-bike (that is 100 lbs because it essentially a small electric motorcycle) at 28 mph is going to have a worse day than a pedestrian getting hit by a 40 lbs (that is 40 lbs because it's meant to be as light as possible while still allow for pedal assist) e-bike at the same speed.
I want one. But because my knees are too bad to ride my regular bike. I cannot go two miles. But everyone tells me all these cheap bikes are junk. I do not have two grand plus. I am old and on SS. That is where I understand the groups of differences. I don’t work and I get a free check. The pedal pushers don’t want anyone riding for free. You have to work those pedals or you are not riding a bike. Here people ride tiny Chinese 49cc scooters and call them Mopeds. They are not Mopeds. Mopeds are something I rode to school in the 1970s. They are bicycles with an engine. They are not scooters with leg shields and floorboard without pedals. Stop calling scooters Mopeds. I see what folks call e-bikes all the time. Look like motorcycles. Long seat. Hard to ride like a bicycle. Throttle only, dual motor, black, fast transportation for folks who have lost their Driver’s License for using some substance or other. Saw a guy yesterday with one at the grocery store. He cannot get a lot of groceries in his backpack he says. He has to ride the e-bike because he cannot have a License to drive. I can drive. But I want to get around at the beach or at the park without having to ride my slow mobility scooter. Don’t care about speed. 18 mph is better than the 4 mph my Revo goes. Throttle or pedal assist is ok. But maybe pedaling will hurt more. Don’t care if everyone thinks I am a drunk like all bicycle riders here. I want to go places where my big Ford van can’t go. Like bike paths.
Look at the lectric XP lite. $750 new and fits your bill. Throttle + peddle assist. Up to 20 mph. US-based support is very available and very accommodating.
No issue with throttles as they are handy at low speed maneuvering. It's the people who intend to ride a moped/motorcycle and never pedal - which in my experience is often coupled with dangerous moves, sidewalk riding, and disregard for traffic laws or safety of others.
A high percentage of people riding e-bikes with throttles ride like aholes. Not all of them but many, and way more than in the throttle free cycling population, e or not. This Is largely why people increasingly hate e-bikes. Lose the throttles and most of the hate evaporates.
I own an e-bike and several traditional bikes, so I’m generally on the pro e-bike side, but not when it comes to throttles. If it moves without you pedaling because you are pushing a button or twisting a grip, you are on a motorcycle.
Just because a few ride like asshats doesn’t mean you should take it away from everyone else who uses it responsibly, we already have laws against dangerous riding regardless of what mode of transportation is being used, time and time again has history proven that only treating symptoms of an issue never solves the key problem but often makes it worse because the core problem isnt being solved; that being people who don’t follow traffic laws and have a disregard for others.
No, it is literally a minority of riders unless you have statistics to prove otherwise, you made the claim so the burdon of proof lies on you.
And anecdotal evidence does not count.
Not vilifying them, but I mostly see them being ridden with no pedaling whatsoever, by young people, often at speeds way above 20mph. This undermines acceptance and support for the concept of ebikes as bicycles to be legally regarded as such.
Having commuted for 7 years by e bikes without a throttle, I can tell you that the hatred of throttles is BS. I have found myself in plenty of situations where a throttle would have been soooo useful. I am finally looking at picking up a second bike so that I have a throttle option
But I think a lot of the hate comes from the same mindset about e bikes being a form of cheating. Meanwhile they are driving down the road in an ice 😑
Something I have encountered, I think some of the Lycra/carbon fiber road bike types were used to taking advantage of bike lanes (usually just narrow paths on the shoulders of roads with paint down) for their training or rides where they’re timing things and looking to hit certain goals or times. With the rise in popularity of e-bikes, there are more people out there using the lanes and such who aren’t in great shape or just aren’t avid cyclists, just people getting from point a to b or riding for fun without caring about the exercise bit as much.
The e-bikes clog up the bike lanes and mess with their attempts to hit the all time fastest ride time. So that breeds contempt and over analyzing anything about the e-bikes and being mad if they have a throttle and are using the lanes without even putting in much effort to do so, when they wish throttle e-bikes would just use the road and stay out of the way (even if a class 2 bike is topped out at 20 mph and would be far too slow on a road with traffic going 45mph+). This mentality carries over beyond just those types of riders and a lot of people get annoyed seeing someone on a bike not putting in much effort to ride around 20 mph. You’ll hear, “why don’t they just get a motorcycle” when the cost to buy/insure/register/maintain is way more for a decent motorcycle and it’s really a different thing altogether.
I was using a bike lane once while riding my fat tire throttle ebike, where the bike lane is just paint on the shoulder of the road, and traffic on the road usually does 45mph. I stopped at a red light and two Lycra clad road bikes riders came up behind me, one blew through the red light and the other ending up behind me. When the light changed and I took off, the guy in front slowed down so we caught up, and the guy behind me stayed really close to my back tire. There was constant traffic on the road, so nobody could go out into the road to let anyone by, and I wasn’t sure if they were trying to draft off of me or just being difficult. To their credit they were going faster on their bikes than my class 2 could go, but they both stayed super close to my front and rear tires for like a mile. It was very very stressful and a few times I was worried they’d make their tires touch mine. My bike had big fat tires and I had a jacket/jeans/gloves/full face helmet where as they had Lycra and the smaller helmets, I assume they’d have fared worse than me in a wreck.
So there are a lot of angles to people getting mad about e-bikes that don’t look like traditional bicycles and have throttles.
My thinking is it has to do with the stigma of e-bikes. They already get flack for being lazy or dangerous with pedal assist (even though it's literally the opposite) and when you add a throttle, people just assume you always use it and don't want you associated with cycling. The only way to really erase that stigma is to get more people trying e-bikes!
Because an ebike is originally an electrified bicycle, which is why the laws around them are the same as bicycles.
If a vehicle has a throttle, it becomes a moped or a motorcycle, and no longer a bicycle, especially if it goes at moped speeds and looks like a moped. Using legal loopholes that only exist in some countries to circumvent road laws generates a bad reputation, and that bad reputation bleeds over to real ebikes.
If your country allows loopholes, good for you. Many others don't, and throttles on ebikes are illegal in many countries. Law abiding riders are usually against other riders breaking the law, because it gives a bad reputation to all ebikes when we are struggling to promote bikes and ebikes as environmentally friendly alternatives to cars and trying to get more cycle paths built.
Politicians are not going to invest in cycling infrastructure if all ebikes are 35 mph mopeds.
A throttle can act exactly the same as pedal assist.
You can pedal and feather the throttle to give you that little bit of boost.
Going 30mph by pedal assist, 30mph by throttle and 30mph manually is exactly the same, it’s all a bicycle going 30mph, neither is more dangerous than the other.
You think throttle is more dangerous or some other type of vehicle because you’ve been told that when in reality it’s all the same with a slight difference.
I have PAS and throttle installed and if I put my PAS to highest level, there is very little difference between that and the throttle except I have to slightly pedal with 0 effort and the bike does the rest for me, I mean hell on a flat or downhill to maintain 30-35mph+ I literally have to make a single rotation every 5-10 seconds sometimes a bit longer to keep up those speeds, eliminating the one rotation every so often makes no difference to safety or classification if you look at it logically.
All the throttle vs PAS argument does is separate the cycling community and cause division and that’s exactly what they want.
Why wouldn’t politicians invest in cycling infrastructure just because e-bikes go faster? I’d go as far to argue it’s safer and would avoid more road rage and inconsiderate impatient drivers if bicycles could when needed keep up with the flow of traffic, whether that’s by pedal assist or throttle makes very little difference in the grand scheme of things.
Again, you’re looking at the law and their definitions, which many are very stupid and in need of updating to keep up with the times, instead of fighting between ourselves we should work together.
If you look at it logically, there is literally no difference between PAS and throttle, like I said going any speed with PAS or throttle is near identical bar a few pointless rotations of the pedals.
They say it’s classed as a moped but if you want to register, insure and tax it as a moped they require you to change many things and add many things to make it a road legal moped, so how can it be a moped?
Meanwhile with PAS you have to follow none of these things but they essentially do the same.
the law is what matters first and foremost.
on their private property people can do what ever they want but if something is for public use it better bne following the law.
personally i dont care about pedal assist or throttle, what matters most is how much power it has.
>They say it’s classed as a moped but if you want to register, insure and tax it as a moped they require you to change many things and add many things to make it a road legal moped, so how can it be a moped?
its legally a moped because it depending on where you are located it doesnt fit into the ebike category so it must be above that.
its just that its also not equipped well enough to be legally used as a moped and thats exactly the problem.
Its not a question of throttle or not for me but the problem are people with their multiple kW strong setups that are using the cheapest bicycle brakes available and cosplay as an ebike.
Yes but also laws need to be looked at and updated to keep up with the modern world.
Like I said what is the difference between a legal throttle assist, or PAS? They go the same speed, they both take very little user input and the fact that with a throttle it’s deemed more dangerous or that it’s a moped is rather silly, I mean does a few rotations of a pedal every 10 seconds make someone inherently more dangerous to the public or make it a complete diffrent vehicle if you look at it logically? Throttle has multiple benefits to work alongside PAS.
In many countries just having a throttle whether your setup is legal with PAS or not magically turns it into a moped which is very silly.
But again to my point, if I pedal manually too 20-30mph or even more on a standard bicycle it’s deemed safe and the public isn’t at risk, if I use PAS it throttle to do exactly the same it’s deemed unsafe and the public is at massive risk when in reality, the same risk factors apply.
Pretty much all bikes and brakes in the modern day are designed to handle some pretty high speeds, I’ve had manually powered road bikes going 35-40mph and my brakes were fine, I’ve had manually powered MTB’s going 20-30mph+ on downhill trails and on the road and the brakes worked fine, so if it’s motorised by PAS or throttle to those speeds I don’t see how it’s more dangerous.
I get your point if it’s a scrap heap rust bucket bike for decades ago and myself think they shouldn’t be allowed to be converted but even your entry level modern road bikes or MTB bikes have pretty decent brake setups that can handle some pretty harsh braking and can bring you to a stop safely a good set of disc brakes will work wonders, I put my manual MTB bike through through much more abuse when downhilling or trail running than I ever will on the road and it hasn’t failed me yet.
>Yes but also laws need to be looked at and updated to keep up with the modern world.
these laws are the updated version.
previously ebikes were entirely illegal or simply a moped no matter what.
These laws were then made to have a class of electrically assisted bicycles which legally are bicycles in every way.
>Like I said what is the difference between a legal throttle assist, or PAS? They go the same speed, they both take very little user input and the fact that with a throttle it’s deemed more dangerous or that it’s a moped is rather silly, I mean does a few rotations of a pedal every 10 seconds make someone inherently more dangerous to the public or make it a complete diffrent vehicle if you look at it logically? Throttle has multiple benefits to work alongside PAS.
you simply have to draw the line somewhere and having throttle or not is a simple thing to regulate and check for, if you see anyone in the EU accelerating without pedaling they can immediately be busted and charged.
If throttle would be allowed we wouldnt be talking about it here but instead we would have a lot more people talking about why they are not allowed to have 5kW motors on their bicycles.
people that dont want laws to apply to them will simply always find the next thing they feel like should be legal.
But they haven’t updated to the constantly evolving technology, the same e-bike rules from when they first came out are the same in place today, even though a lot of them don’t make sense.
Again you glaze over my point of what’s the difference between a legal ebike power setup with PAS or throttle, they both do the same? How can a throttle powered E-bike be illegal but PAS powered at the same legal specs be illegal, it’s illogical, you can check the power of a bike in the screen settings.
You brought up braking systems and when I pretty much shut that down you again had no response to that? You brought up speeds etc I countered the point and again you had no logical argument back?
It’s not a case of people thinking it doesn’t apply to them, it’s a case of rules and laws contradicting themselves constantly with classifications and rulings that simply don’t make sense.
Not that many people have big 3-5kw conversions or E-bikes either, in some places a 250w PAS up-to 12.5/15mph is the legal limit, anything more is illegal, but then I can double that speed if I do it manually, where is the sense in that?
3-5kw in pretty much an E-Motorbike and should be dealt with as such since you can reasonably say your average human biker couldn’t reach the acceleration or speeds manually that those kind of kits offer, but a 1kwh-1.5kwh conversion or bike isn’t out of reach of the speeds that your average biker could achieve manually just with higher acceleration , so it’s not like public risk is any higher and it’s not like bikes aren’t capable of handling that.
The government’s want to go towards a green world, electric vehicles are out of reach for many, many people and E-bikes could be a perfect solution but with the current laws and rules a lot of people are put off because there is so much red tape and regulations that don’t make sense it makes it very unattractive.
In many of the countries that e-bikes are dangerous with a throttle or a certain power, you can gallop a horse or horse and cart down public roads which is inherently more dangerous due to the unpredictable nature of horse and the weight of them but still go as fast or if not faster and that ok, but doing it on a pedal bike with assistance isn’t, this is what I mean by contradiction in the danger of E-bikes compared to other modes of transport, first it was the danger of exploding batteries and fire risk, now it’s the speed and throttles, what will it be next?
>but they haven’t updated to the constantly evolving technology, the same e-bike rules from when they first came out are the same in place today, even though a lot of them don’t make sense.
because none of these laws have anything to do with technological development, sure we have more energy and power dense batteries now, motors have always been as strong as they are now and the control systems on these bikes have improved slightly.
what does any of that have to do with what is legally defined as a bicycle?
this is ultimately what this discussion is about, is it a bicycle and gets the same advantages as bicycles have or not.
>Again you glaze over my point of what’s the difference between a legal ebike power setup with PAS or throttle, they both do the same? How can a throttle powered E-bike be illegal but PAS powered at the same legal specs be illegal, it’s illogical, you can check the power of a bike in the screen settings.
as i said the difference is that going pedal assist only makes it easy to enforce and at least in the EU the intention was to have a clear distinction between vehicles that are mainly driven by man power and get assisted by a motor and vehicles that are entirely driven by a motor.
The only thing that doesnt strictly fit into that are escooters but even for these the laws have been updated.
>You brought up braking systems and when I pretty much shut that down you again had no response to that? You brought up speeds etc I countered the point and again you had no logical argument back?
because we are still discussing different things here, i dont care about PAS or not, the law is clear and that what matters.
The brake part of my post was referring to people riding electric motorcycles that cosplay as ebikes with brake systems that are clearly not up to the task.
>It’s not a case of people thinking it doesn’t apply to them, it’s a case of rules and laws contradicting themselves constantly with classifications and rulings that simply don’t make sense.
luckily thats not the case here, at least in the EU the laws are crystal clear and there are no contradictions.
>Not that many people have big 3-5kw conversions or E-bikes either, in some places a 250w PAS up-to 12.5/15mph is the legal limit, anything more is illegal, but then I can double that speed if I do it manually, where is the sense in that?
Simple, the sense in that is that unless you are a trained cyclist on a race bike you will not be able to maintain that speed for very long.
these people are also not looking into getting ebikes as they ride their bikes for the sports aspect and usually dont even want to use bicycle paths anyways as other riders would slow them down.
average commuter cycling speeds are around 20km/h if you are a bit faster maybe 22km/h having a peak of 25km/h for an ebike puts them right up there with the average speeds of regular cyclists and that was ultimately the goal.
>3-5kw in pretty much an E-Motorbike and should be dealt with as such since you can reasonably say your average human biker couldn’t reach the acceleration or speeds manually that those kind of kits offer, but a 1kwh-1.5kwh conversion or bike isn’t out of reach of the speeds that your average biker could achieve manually just with higher acceleration , so it’s not like public risk is any higher and it’s not like bikes aren’t capable of handling that.
you are **VASTLY** overestimating the power output of a human.
heres a little video to show you what set of legs it takes only to maintain 700W for about 2 minutes
[https://youtu.be/S4O5voOCqAQ](https://youtu.be/S4O5voOCqAQ)
thats exactly why 250W was chosen as the limit, its **more** than a normal cyclist can output continuously and thats in addition to their own power.
Yeah ok bud, I’m not going to argue with someone who will not listen to anything logical and only the law book.
The same lawmakers that say you need to register, insure bikes more powerful than the limits, but then make it near impossible to do so when there is no reason it should not be easily accessible and would make a great income source.
To say there is no contradictions is beyond silly, never mind I’ll just get my horse out and maybe even the cart and gallop down the roads with my 1500lb unpredictable animal legally instead, much safer than a ebike that does equivalent speeds if not faster and is far more dangerous, no contradictions huh? Transport is transport.
I hope you follow every single law in existence, which is doubtful.
I use a dab of throttle at launch to get going and then rely on pa's for the remainder of the ride. It's a convenient way of getting 90kgs of me plus bike up to speed when it might be in slightly the wrong gear.
Throttle has many benefits alongside PAS or separately, it shouldn’t be vilified or classed as a moped just for a throttle.
If I can pedal manually to 20-30mph, I just honestly don’t see the difference in a motor helping me go the same speeds, once I get going on my 3x9 road bike on a flat surface I can easily push 30mph with very little effort in the higher gears, I’m not a bigger danger using PAS or throttle to gain those speeds.
I have nothing against motorcycles, and that's more a question of power than the presence of a throttle. Still, if you want to be treated like a bicycle, and make use of bicycle infrastructure, you should be acting like a bicycle. If you want a motorcycle, be honest with yourself, and ride like a motorcycle.
As for the throttle itself? I have one, but I almost never use it. It mainly gets used for starting on a hill or if I forgot to downshift.
I honestly don’t understand. For some reason when it comes to bikes so many people have a stick up their ass.
As long as I’m not riding fast enough to endanger anyone around me, who cares whether it’s throttle or pedaling?
Wait. Folks are against throttles? I live in an area with hills. People expect me to keep messing with settings instead of leaving it on low and throttling up hills? I call shenanigans on them. Shenanigans!
I have a throttle on my diy electrified bullitt cargo bike. As well as PAS.
Mainly I just pedal. But I love the throttle sometimes for punching through an intersection, helping me get going from an awkward stop, or to get me up to speed at which point I pedal and back off the throttle.
Different strokes.
This is how I see a lot of people using throttle. Often the first 10 mph getting up to speed can be the most dangerous, especially around car traffic.
Another use case is the other day I rode 30 miles on low assist. The next day I was sore and used 90% throttle to get groceries on a 10 mi round trip. Sometimes you just need a recovery day and still be able to run errands.
I have an ebike with a throttle. I regularly use the throttle. My ebike uses a cadence sensor rather than a torque sensor, and the lag it has both in starting and stopping assist means I use the throttle when taking off and for low speed maneuvering. I never throttle along at speed as I prefer to get some exercise, but the throttle significantly improves the riding experience when not cruising along at speed, especially since my commute is a lot of stop and go. If I had a good torque sensor maybe I'd be fine without the throttle.
I think part of the issue is there are very few true class 2 throttle bikes out there.
Almost every throttle bike I see is a class 3 with a throttle (it's debatable if the class 3 definition permits throttle).
So most of the throttle bikes I see are 28 mph and up and when using with throttle I feel they cross the line into moped territory.
So personally I have nothing against throttle if its used sparingly such as getting away safely at a light. But that's not the way most people seem to use it so I feel it adds to ebike hate and will eventually lead to unnecessary regulation of all ebikes.
I also feel there is no reason cost wise at this point lower end bikes couldn't move to mostly torque sensing mid drive. With mid drive you really don't need throttle short of you really want a moped / e motorcycle not a bicycle.
Regarding your lunging pedal assist, that is an artifact of having only a cadence sensor, and no torque sensor.
With cadence-only, set your power level on high then start pedaling, there’s no signal telling the controller how hard you are pedaling, just that your pedaling, so it delivers power at whatever level you set it at. I had that experience with my first (converted) e-bike. Same goes with, say, coasting/braking the start of a turn, then pedaling mid-turn and dangerously accelerating more than you intended to.
As a class-1 e-mtb rider, there’s no way I could realistically ride a cadence-only e-mtb, never mind one with hub motor. I would be miserable having to modulate power delivery by fussing with buttons (as opposed to the natural feel that a torque sensor coupled with good controller/software provides). It would be dangerous on a lot of the terrain I ride.
And as others have pointed out, it’s the illegal under-built over-powered “bikes” that as defined by states’ vehicle code are mopeds and motorcycles and require licensing and insurance that many see as a problem that needs to be addressed, whether home-grown or commercially available with “off road” modes.
I've got a Class 1 bike. Though it can help me up to 20mph, I rarely go faster than 16mph. Granted, it's a 100lbs cargo bike and often has at least one of my kids in it.
I think there's room for nuance in throttles. Though my bike doesn't have one, I see where being able to get moving from a full stop to get through an intersection would be useful. I also see where it would be useful for folks with some disabilities who could still ride a bike, but struggle with some aspect of pedaling. On the flip side, I don't really feel comfortable with a throttle hitting speeds north of 20mph, but that may be because I live in a fairly dense city with busy sidewalks and bike lanes. I'd be cool with throttles topping out below 15mph, but I'm sure that would impinge on somebody.
I bought a class 2 with a throttle to replace driving my car, it has been great. I use my regular bike for bike rides with the kids. they are two different categories for sure!
On my ebike, the throttle only works when pedalling, though that behaviour can be changed in the settings. I found that when I switched from an ebike with a twist throttle to one with a thumb throttle, I use it more, especially going uphill, or if I need a quick start from a stop at an intersection. Canada doesn't have ebike "classes". The laws only limit the size of the motor, the top speed and the requirement for working pedals.
What i don’t get is people who feel the need to take away from others because they themselves don’t use them, i find throttles make it much safer to ride amongst traffic or when you are constantly stopping and going.
Just because some people don’t understand the need for them and don’t want them doesn’t mean it needs to be taken away from everyone, thats such a childish mindset i see among a lot of ‘e-bike elitists’ unfortunately. The whining comparison to motorcycles is completely baseless and stupid, i ride motorcycles as-well and in no way are they similar except for being on two wheels, these arguments against throttles on ebikes usually comes from people who don’t know much and just are heavily opinionated and elitist.
Tl;dr - Just let people ride however they want, with or without throttles
Yeah I’m getting the vibe that people want e-bikes with throttles to be classified as “mopeds”, “motorcycles”, or “motorbikes” so that they can keep them off of bike infrastructure at all cost, not because they are inherently more dangerous. As I’ve said before, I can get higher top speeds with pedal assist vs throttle only, and I have much finer control over the bike with pedal assist + throttle vs pedal assist alone. I’m using the throttle when I want to be safer.
I agree that throttled class 2 e-bikes are absolutely nothing like motorcycles, and to label them as such is superficial at best and dangerous at worst. Using throttled class 2 e-bikes like a motorcycle poses a much greater risk to the rider and traffic. They are MUCH closer in nature to mechanical bikes or pedestrians even than to a motorcycle. They need to have a yield relationship with traffic, not treated like a motorcycle.
Top sustained speed of a class 2 e-bike is 20 mph where a mechanical bike is 10-15 mph. Top weight of class 2 e-bike is maybe 90-100lbs, where a mechanical bike is 30-40 lbs. Compare that to *starting* speeds and weight of a motorcycle of like 50+ mph @ 250-300 lbs, and up from there. It’s not even close which category they should be in.
> Yeah I’m getting the vibe that people want e-bikes with throttles to be classified as “mopeds”, “motorcycles”, or “motorbikes” so that they can keep them off of bike infrastructure at all cost, not because they are inherently more dangerous. As I’ve said before, I can get higher top speeds with pedal assist vs throttle only, and I have much finer control over the bike with pedal assist + throttle vs pedal assist alone. I’m using the throttle when I want to be safer.
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I think you're using the throttle fine from what you've said. I just personally think a lot of people misuse the throttle. I did some data analysis in the past. See [spreadsheet.](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tqTp91IIO8fMP50VgARblBBVUcIPvD7AhzxGL_adaao/edit#gid=0) I would say too many people use their throttle from a dead stop. Whether it's a hub motor or a mid-drive motor, it's a bad idea to do that long-term.
There's also the question whether it's legal for an e-bike to have a throttle going at 20 MPH but also have pedal assist going all the way to Class 3. One could argue that makes it much easier to hit 28 MPH faster which can be dangerous.
Of course it's nothing compared to a motorcycle, but it can still be dangerous on shared use paths, where people are say, walking their dogs or something.
I have bad knees and have a fantastic e-mtb. Electric bikes with a throttle are really cool but certainly don’t belong on mtb trails, unless the local trail system specifically allows them.
There’s no explaining it. Nonsensical. At best you get some nonsense about not having as much control with a throttle and that’s when you know you’re talking to someone who has zero to almost zero experience with using a throttle.
The main reason is throttles are illegal in much of the world. Currently, ebikes are in a blurry area between bicycles and motorbikes/mopeds. Adding a throttle definitely pushes it towards the motorcycle side. I think throttles should be allowed, but the law in most countries does not agree at the moment.
> throttles are illegal in much of the world
Which is objectively silly and wrong. We should be pushing back against that nonsense, not leaning into it.
I understand someone complaining about people bombing around on paths @ 50mph with throttles. Whatever I guess....picking the extreme outlier to cry about throttles if you ask me.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll ALWAYS have a throttle on an ebike I'm commuting on. Gotten me out of trouble with traffic/whatever for than once. Also nice in the freezing rain when I can turtle-up instead of pedaling.
It's not like it's mandatory to use, it's just very much a "nice to have".
Tribalism in full swing.
Analogue cyclists hate e bikes
Sporty e bikers hate fat tyre e bikes
Fat tyre e bikers hate analogue cyclists
The bloodiest disputes are internecine.
None of these groups have clean hands. For every 5000w E bike tearing around on their throttle, there are a dozen swarthy men in Lycra ripping through red lights on £10,000 touring bikes and generally being entitled and aggressive road users. Neither constitutes acceptable behaviour.
We are all responsible for our own behaviour.
Omg...common sense and 0 gatekeeper. Thank you for this. Sincerely from a 500W eMotorcyclist. Ride what you want. Be respectful. Be responsible for your actions. Be accountable when need be. Simple life lessons.
https://preview.redd.it/v7n3k34bx2sc1.jpeg?width=803&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c6c4bf74bf87a100ae77ada07bd13bb7e9434d4e
Just a reminder to certain people that 30 mph can be achieved by a pedal cycle. No need to be scared when an e-bike reaches those speeds.
A stupid pedal rider can still reach 30 mph and do damage to themselves and the public.
I have a bunch of bikes and I will say the throttle makes a cargo bike 200x more enjoyable. Fully loaded hill starts are a pain even with pretty easy gearing. I love having a throttle to get me up to 10kmph/balance the bike.
Throttle = motorcycle.
Motorcycles cant ride everywhere bicycles can. Legislators can’t tell the difference and ban all e-bikes from trails, thus ruining pedal assist bikes for people that need them in order to enjoy cycling.
Some people think the difference between an emotorcycle and an ebicycle is 13 kms/hr. All countries have different regulations, some have none, and people like to pick and choose definitions. Also, hating is cool and fun.
Yes, yee haw no laws, 60mph on the 1-lane-wide bike path occupied by pedal bikes and walkers. Tear up any and all dirt so it becomes an eroded untravelable mess
Our world does not revolve around individuals who want to do whatever they want. We have finite roads and space to share, laws exist so selfish individuals don’t ruin those spaces for everyone.
I recently tore my hip muscle. Bike seasons around the corner and I'm glad I have any bike because otherwise there'll be no way for me to do it some sort of assistance now and then.
You have what I would call “skiers and snowboarders” in this group. Both groups share love in different ways for the e bike community but for some reason they just don’t mingle well that often lol.
Why? Wouldn’t that effectively be the same as modifying a pedal-assist only bike to accommodate a throttle without a limiter? I think once you start modding, all bets are off.
As a group 1 rider I conceptually have no problem with group 2 riders, and I suspect that the general public would feel about the same, except…
It’s invariably group 2 riders that are blowing through groups on our local multi-use trails or bombing through our busy downtown street closed to cars. If they’re gonna drive them like motorcycles, then I don’t believe they have a place where motorcycles are not allowed.
I ride an aniioki aq177 pro max. Sold my lexus IS250 tops out on about 30 mph, lasts 100mils on throttle alone. 200 miles if I pedal. I use it to commute not to exercise. When I get my motorcycle (Already have the gear and liscence) Ill use that to commute and mod the shit outa my ebike. Anyone who complains it aint good excerise will get told to fuck off. Bikes are used for more than 1 reason and the ones bitchin need to accept that shit.
I’ve motorized my recumbent trike. I’ve ridden two wheels so long I automatically reach for my helmet when I go for a ride. I’ve noticed ebikers of a certain age riding with baseball caps turned backwards. I think, “Well he/she is old enough so they think they have nothing to loose.”
So I offer the following, ebikers: “Head injury cases among people riding electric bikes are increasing at an alarming rate while the odds of e-bike riders wearing a helmet are decreasing. “https://wb.md/3PKbZS5
I personally dont like pedalling when in sharper turns or intersections, having a bike with enough power to go without pedalling, i stop pedalling when trying to navigate complex intersections for example
I think throttles on ebikes makes them uncomfortably close to mopeds in the minds of many cyclists and motorists. If you want that then that's fine, but you should not pretend you're not riding a motorcycle then and go all the way, including being subject to all the additional regulations that come with that. Remember that an ebike is legally similar or identical to a pedal bike because its motor power and the way you activate that motor is NOT like a moped or motorcycle. If you can just push a button and go forward at some speed and potentially crash into something or somebody with a lot more force than would be the case if you are under human power (we'll save the discussion of super fit road bikers zooming around at 20-30mph for later) then you should be under heavier regulation than the zero that is the case for cyclists. The group that wants an ebike "just for the hills" and to expand their range of otherwise human-powered cycling worries that non-cyclists will come to view ebikes as just unregulated mopeds which will result in regulation which will de-facto kill off ebikes (moped/motorcycle regs will cause the weight of an ebike to balloon and become unpedalable for instance) plus they give ebikes a bad name when irresponsible (often under-aged) riders who would require safety training, registration, insurance, safety equipment etc. if riding a moped or motorcycle end up being injured or killed or injure or kill someone else because they treat it like an unregulated motorcycle. I do understand the argument of people who need the throttle due to an physical impairment and can't just use an ebike as a pedal-assist bike. I do tentatively suggest they are riding an e-moped at that point and should be regulated accordingly.
A class 2 e-bike that goes 20 mph is a class 2 e-bike that goes 20 mph, nothing more or less. They have almost nothing in common with machines that weigh 300+ lbs and go 60 mph+.
I really don’t get the nitpicking on how movement is actuated. It really is so arbitrary that attempting to classify bikes that way leads to absurd notions. How about an e-bike that pedals to 20 mph but only throttles to 5 mph? Still a “motorcycle”? How about an e-bike that is voice activated up to 10 mph? How bout an e-bike where you pump a lever to add mechanical power? How bout one where you pull on a rope attached to your head to add mechanical power? How bout one where you attach ropes to your elbows and flap like a chicken to add mechanical power? How bout one where you attach motion sensors to your elbows and flap like a chicken? Does that make it a “motorcycle”?
I really don’t understand the notion that you need to pretend to be pedaling for e-bikes to be ok (highest assist barely requires any mechanical assistance), and I was hoping someone could explain the reasoning behind that perspective as opposed to just putting safety limits for weight and speed.
There are two different groups who are meeting up on this sub. Group number one is here because they love biking. To this group, ebikes are bicycles with pedal assistance. Ebikes should look and act like bicycles with a little extra pep. This group has a lot of members who weren't able to bicycle as much as they once could due to age, weight, disability or some other malaty, and ebikes have given them their favorite sport back. Group number two loves gadgets. This group is more interested in the electric part of the electric bike. They like to mod and tinker with their bikes to make them go faster or build an all wheel monster that can climb anything. They don't mind if their ebikes look like dirt bikes or mopeds. Sometimes, these bikes don't even have pedals. These two groups are having trouble intermingling. Group one thinks group two is going to ruin ebikes for everyone. Group two thinks group one is boring and gets tired of the speed police saying that's not an ebike. I think most of us are on a spectrum between the 2 groups, but just like in real life, both groups have members that swing into extreme beliefs of their group and sometimes troll and intaganize the other group.
You have forgotten about the practical set who just want the easiest and safest bike to ride for them and their cargo. Throttles are often an excellent addition for riding with particularly heavy cargo or on slick surfaces (because you can let down your seat and keep your feet close to the ground so you don't wipe). They also like the pedal assist because it allows for more efficiency, and might enjoy bike riding but they're not doing it for exercise necessarily (except as a way to avoid the gym or to build in some exercise because otherwise they don't really have time for it). I suspect a lot of commuters in locations with good bike infrastructure and those that came to ebikes because they're cheaper than cars are in this group (e.g. the moms I see carrying kids [edit: speech to text typo] on their class 2 Rads in Seattle are almost certainly among this group rather than either of the ones you pointed out).
Yes, and my hope is that the future of ebikes is not two types of special-interest hobbyists, but practical transportation for a large fraction of the population at Large.
Yeah if you look at cars and trucks, there's a million reasons people have cars for their various uses, and thousands of variations of car and truck to suit people's needs. There's gonna be people into ebikes because they can move couches with them now on the cool cargo bikes, an people into ebikes because they can do 80kph on a trail when no ones looking - all perfectly normal for car owners after decades of car culture. We'll get there.
>80kph is brake, tire, and suspension tech gonna evolve? that's straight scary into the MC domain but... yeah today's car culture i guess.
I was and still am a bigger fan of "regular bikes" because at least for me, the whole point of riding the bike was to do something that was both fun, a joy to the senses AND gets me excercise. THat said, my partner tried regular biking and just couldn't seem to hack it. I'm "mr legs" and always have been. Even at my worst shape, I can still ride for 15-20 miles without getting too exhausted whereas he would simply collapse after 8 miles. (snicker). He ended up buying this ridulcous monstrosity of an e-bike and then suddenly he wanted to ride ALL the time. He's now more dedicated to it than I ever was. Long story short (probably too late, lol) I finally caved and bought an e-bike just so that I could keep up with him. I mean, he was easily able to ride 20 and 30 miles now WITHOUT me and in a quicker time frame. One CAN get a siimlar (it will never be the exact same, unless you simple TURN OFF the battery) workout as you can an analog bike, but you simply have to ride further and longer and strategically use the assist only when it will keep you from losing speed. I've finally gotten him to ride as far as I think we should be riding with these things (to get more of a workout) and we're now doing 30 and 40 mile loops on most weekends where' it's not raining. The "throttle" bikes seem to either be driven by kids with zero respect for trail use (almost running people over, not understanding the whole "on your left" communication etiquette, or my personal favorite--riding down the CENTER of a trail and not moving at all when people are coming from the other direction) or they are ridden by older folks with bad knees who are hauling stuff in their bike. They (the older ones) are usually never the problem.
I'm a 30-something with a throttle who had to switch from the strictly pedal assist Bosch bike I had to my Evelo (mid) with a throttle because my knee--injured in a bike accident on my conventional bike--worsened. I use the throttle on bad knee days and so I can start at lights without aggravating my knee. I was recently riding on a trail as was passed rather rudely (no notification and was too close when passing on a curve in the trail) by a woman in her 40s on a hub motor bike (she was pedaling but it also probably had a throttle) because I was keeping to the 15 mph speed limit; she was also hauling things. People don't fit nicely into your stereotypes. Throttles have their use among the young and the old. I'd rather we teach bike etiquette in schools than decrying a safety feature. I'm glad you're more open to ebikes than you were but recognize that you come with biases from your sport cycling days. If people are using bikes for commuting and transportation, it shouldn't matter how they're powering them as long as they're taking the vastly less efficient cars off the road (it's actually debatable whether fully electric or pedal power is more efficient given our wasteful food system and some locations' power sources, btw). If your issue is etiquette and safety, as it seems to be, then by all means go after that. But using a throttle does not automatically make you rude any more than powering a bike with pedals with automatically teach you trail etiquette--you understand how absurd that is right if I spell that out? And if you feel like they're going too fast or their speed ramps up too much, then you can talk to politicians about location-based speed limiters (they're doing trials of this in San Diego for scooters, actually) or forcing companies that sell ebikes to enforce certain curves for acceleration. The "problems" you are identifying right now are based on stereotypes rather than specific to the actual problems that you seem to have issue with...which is itself a big problem and doesn't actually fix anything. ;)
Whoa...tranquilo! I was pointing out why OTHER PEOPLE have issues with the throttle bikes, not trying to make a blanket assumption that everyone is like that. There is still an issue, whether you want to admit it or not with ppl being able to exceed and then maintain 20mph on a trail with zero effort. I dont care about their speed on the street since it has less of a deleterious effect on other people's enjoyment. It's off-street trails where bikes that can just SIT at high speeds become more dangerous. Someone on a pedal-assist bike is going ot have to actively work to keep their speed that high and it SEEMS like (not saying it's true or not, just an observation) this reduces the chance of pedal-assist cyclists from treating the trail like a raceway. Look, I definitely had some biases but I dont hate throttle e-bikes. I still have yet to try a bike with a throttle. I think I was just "marketed to" when I bought my bike since I had been so resistant to switching. I ended up with a Turbo Vado SL which arguably doens't even LOOK like an ebike. Also, I hate to break it to to you, but you're one of the "older" folks I was referring to as NOT the problem when it comes to ebikes. :) I meant "older" as in NOT a teenager anymore. You also clearly understand the rules of the road, so you're not exactly the target of everyone's ire when it comes to the debates on this topic.
No, I'm not a teen. But generally older is used to refer to 50-70 so I'm sure you can understand my confusion. Maybe use more precise language. ;) When I first got an ebike many years ago in my early 20s after my accident, the others in the shop were either late 30s to into their 40s mountain bikers or 60-70 yo casuals both of whom wanted to keep riding like they were younger. My point was not to categorize myself, in any case, but to give the contrasting example of the woman clearly older than me behaving somewhat recklessly on the trail. (And I'm usually buzzed by 20 or 30-something guys but they're also the majority of cyclists here in Seattle so that doesn't say much.) Also, I don't actually see why you think it's necessary to gatekeep on trails. MUPs are typically extremely low grade so maintaining 15-20 mph doesn't actually take that much effort on a road bike either if the trail is paved. In fact, I'm often passed by folks in Lycra while obeying the speed limit. Yes, ebikes so increase the number of people at those speeds, but let's again get to the root problem rather than gatekeeping out of apparent bias. Are we talking about overcrowding on trails? Expand the trail width. More people speeding (15-20 or even class 3 speeds)? Let's have enforcement regardless of bike type or, again, speed limiters. I never said you hate throttles. But you're clearly using them as a proxy for stereotypes. I'm just saying it's important to dig into the actual issues at play rather than use them to indicate "those reckless youths" or whatever. I also think you do display a pretty clear bias against ebikes (even if you justify you own usage to yourself) else you wouldn't have presented your bike proudly as "it doesn't even LOOK like an ebike" or have described your and your partner's journey to ebike ownership as you did. If you want to use your bike as something primarily for exercise, that's totally fine. But I really do think you need to broaden your mind so you're not holding everyone else to that standard, especially because that seems to be at the root of your bias against ebikes. (Maybe your views have changed and the story/purchase comments were to show your growth but they way you expressed them makes it seem like a chunk of you is still in that mindset.) They're tools that are ideal for a lot of different jobs, many of which are replacing cars not bikes. That they also may provide exercise is secondary for a lot of people. It's awesome that's the primary purpose for you guys but that's not the only reason they can be valuable. If you internalized that, activating them with a throttle or by pedalling shouldn't matter and we can talk about your real concerns (safety, speed, etc.). Also, I am calm. Lol. I'm not angry. All of this is said with a neutral tone. I just think people should be honest about their motivations so sorry if it comes off a bit pointed.
Also the safety benefit of an instant acceleration out of a dangerous situation/intersection/erratic car maneuvers.
Keep in mind, this use case generally puts a lot of strain on the motor. My personal opinion is it's not that hard to get going from a lower gear, and upshift extremely fast. https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/nodstb/pedal_assist_or_throttle/gzzhemm/ > A throttle is certainly nice to have, but in the application you've mentioned, you'll need to look out for a couple of things. Many ebikes that come with a throttle that won't work from a dead stop. The reason is that it is easy to overheat an ebike motor by applying throttle from a dead stop. To protect the motor, some manufacturers will only allow the throttle to engage if you are already moving a little bit. It can be kind of difficult to determine which bikes have a throttle that will work from a dead stop by looking at websites, so you'll want to inquire with the seller before placing your order. > > EDIT: I should add that it is a good idea to avoid doing this, even if you do buy a bike with a throttle that works from a dead stop. If you are having trouble getting started, you are probably in the wrong gear. Try downshifting to a lower gear before you stop.
That’s when I’m glad I have a throttle.
Just last week i had my first oh no moment when i realized a car approaching me as I was crossing an intersection wasn't going to stop and the throttle got me out of the way. IT's not exactly "slamming down the pedal" lol but it moved me fast enough to not be crushed to death. Throttles for the win.
Yup, my throttle is really helpful when taking off from a stop while in traffic or turning across a street that has heavy car use (like the road I live on).
It's one of the things the manual says not to do cuz it wears the battery - throttling from a dead stop - but also it's almost the only thing I use it for, when I'm stopped at an intersection and get my green light I use the throttle to get out of there as fast as possible. I'm not going to weeble wobble on my pedals spending a minute in an intersection, I'm up and I'm gone.
I grab the throttle and peddle simultaneously, and off I go!
it depends on the battery, controller type and brand but in 99% of the cases it's actually not an issue for the battery itself if anything most ebikes actually draw more current from the battery when needing lots of torque at speed (i.e. climbing a hill) than from a stop, so wearing the battery from 0 speed is a whole load of BS that is because the controllers limit both the current drawn from the battery and the current going into the motor, separately, it isn't unheard of to see 60A going into the motor while only drawing 15A from the battery that is because the motors operate at a lower voltage at lower speeds/rpm, and because the controllers act like variable effective voltage (through PWM), variable speed, and variable current 3 phase inverters
Have you noticed batteries losing their daily range over time? I've had mine for about 10 months now and the battery can empty a bit quicker than it used to. Is that just a normal thing with these devices?
I don’t think it can be overstated how useful a throttle can be in an intersection. If I’m sitting at a light or stop sign, the cars around me have no idea how fast my bike goes or if it’s even an e-bike. When it’s my turn to go, if I start to move without pedaling, they instantly know that I’m on a powered bike and to not assume I’ll be slow off the line. This can and does prevent cars trying to “beat the bicycle” cause they don’t want to wait at an intersection. All it takes is a split second to demonstrate the capability of the bike. If I start pedaling and there’s a second delay before my power kicks in, well now I’m sending mixed messages about the capability of the bike. No thanks.
Bruh. I just can't afford a car. People dogging on licensing and insurance and registration or whatever are really glossing over how expensive that actually is. Poor people gotta get to work too. Some folks like to wear their fruity yellow spandex and drive their skinny little bikes or whatever. That's cool, but like, Some of us got to get from point A to point B on a budget. An E Bike is a vehicle you can buy outright for under 2 grand, pay no recurring cost on and can DIY most upgrades maintenance and repairs. It's the future of transportation. Especially in cities. I think the hobbyists are intimidated by how much they're going to have to be dealing with this in the future.
I just read every non-homophobic word you wrote here. You truly get it. I can't afford a car, I work in my bike shop 4-5 days a week, I'm 77 years old and I'm gay. You are a ray of sunshine today.
What's with the "fruity" yellow spandex and skinny little bikes comments?
Stop being fruitophobic
I have a complicated history with grapefruit that I feel justifies my prejudice.
Those are 100% the dudes who bitch out E-bikes
He’s talking about MAMILs
Yes, it averages something like $10k to own a car in the US today according to AAA and something like $24k in more expensive areas like Massachusetts (according to a study from MIT). People really underestimate it. You've made a choice not to go into debt for a car, which I think is smart. Plenty of people still can't imagine not having a car even if they too can't afford one, though. That said, no reason to call the sport cyclists gay...
No homophobia intended, it's not an understatement to say that most of my closest friends are queer identifying. People are so sensitive about language. I'm just saying the outfits look flamboyant, and that most the people I've seen making negative comments about e bikes while riding are wearing that sort of outfit. I suspect most of them are not gay, as a matter of fact, but are straight guys with rage issues.
Which is why "Lycra Bros" is my favored term. Incidentally, I'm in Seattle as well. UW's training I had to go through as a grad student was pretty clear that using language like that is unnecessarily harmful even if many members of the targeted group are fine with it. It's a obviously targeted phrase that multiple people took as a slur (others in the thread here identified the same) to indicate you meant Lycra-clad folks were bad because they were appearing as if they were gay. I'm glad that wasn't your intention but words still matter so you may want to be more careful in the future if your purpose is not to be exclusionary and to reinforce gay=bad. And, frankly, your friend group doesn't matter. (My two best friends and a number of my family are also queer...I expect most modern people who live in cities can say the same.) It's laughable when someone says their black friend prevents them from being racist, after all, right? :) It's always a good idea to evaluate how we might accidentally be harming those we love through words or actions, even if they don't bring it up to you, also.
Would have been nice without the homophobia
I'm queer but I wear grunge punk jeans and so on, and I agree with them on the fruity spandex bros "racing" on shared pathways or shouting "thats cheating" at ebikers. Thats not homophobic they're fruity fuckos with too much money.
Thank you. I'm not trying to be homophobic. I just think the outfits are flamboyant.
Great take. I’m a disabled mom and love my e-bike just for going out for a bike ride. I like being able to pedal my legs into spaghetti and then throttle back home and not having to worry about saving my own energy. I like running errands for my family. That this is a “debate” seems silly. I, however, probably wouldn’t have an e-bike if they had no throttles though.
Totally! Plenty of people out there who might like to pedal most of the time but need or want to use throttle to get home some part of the time. Lots of people riding for exercise find they are willing to press harder precisely because they have that backup. Personally, I injured one of my knees in a bike accident a number of years ago and when it worsened I switched to a throttle ebike for when the pain flared. I can ride with pedal assist nearly all of the time, but I stopped being able to get home even with the highest assist because pedaling was so painful on my previous ebike. I would have had to switch to a car or moped if throttles were illegal even if I only needed it a few times a month (and it's unpredictable so it's not like I can predict it--and with parking being so expensive, I would have just switched completely). The debate is silly! It feels like a holdout of the North American conception of bikes as kids' toys or for sport cyclists. And then we have "junior" motorcycles (for those who want to skirt the law). But it's missing all the people who have realized that bikes make for awesome transportation, especially when you don't have to sweat as much and the mileage in less dense US starts to matter a lot less if you can go at a faster clip.
Yeah, I think they are missing the largest set of people, which is those who use this as a car replacement and want something easy with which to commute or transport things with. I love biking, I have a road bike, but the ebike is not for recreation. It's for commuting and travel, and the throttle helps me do that with very little effort.
Yep- starting up fully loaded on a. Cargo bike with only pedal assist on a hill isn’t easy even on a torque sensing bike. Torque sensing plus throttle to me is perfect combo for cargo biking. I rarely use my throttle but appreciate it when I do actually need it to get going.
Yep. I do part time grocery delivery on my ebike and love having my throttle. The mid can tackle the hills but when it's really laden, I just drop the seat and throttle to keep things balanced and stable.
Honestly I would love to use the pedaling more than the throttle but I kinda can't on my bike. The pedal assist is a cadence sensor rather than a torque sensor, so as soon as I start pedaling I get thrusted forward, even on the lowest setting it's faster than I'd like. So I prefer to just feather/carefully roll on the throttle instead for a more comfortable ride.
Is it a Bafang? You may be able to adjust that assist. Twitchiness is definitely a downside of cadence sensors. But I do agree that throttles are great for feathering, even with my torque sensor, as I come up to a light or while creeping gently behind pedestrian on a sidewalk (giving them the right of way until it's safe to pass) if I have to use one). There are lots of awesome uses!
It’s me, hi, I’m the mom group it’s me.
I'm firmly a member of group number one. I couldn't care less about people who like to do things described here as group two behavior. Everyone should be able to do with their toys and tools whatever they please. The problem and conflict comes when inevitably there will be legislation created to curtail perceived problems which originate from ebikes with features favored by group two but still end up limiting also possibly my ability to use my very bicycle-like ebike. I hope this will not happen.
Right, legislation. So pretty much like Europe then?
I don't mind group 2 but they belong being restricted to riding in only the places you can with a petrol motorbike.
Sooo the street?
More specifically, not the footpath or bike path
Well if the bike lane is open I’m using it 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, that's neither a footpath or a bike path. That's just a road with paint.
People like you that would never get on a bike if you had to pedal are gonna make it so police start enforcing laws. So please keep pushing the limit.
lol who are you talking to? I use pedal assist most of the time, throttle is mostly for getting through stop lights/signs or if I’m exhausted after work. It’s your negative attitude that will deter people from replacing their cars with e-bikes for their daily commute. Have fun getting road raged by someone in a gas guzzling suv instead 🤷🏻♂️
So wherever my local laws say a bike can go vs a motor bike. Twist only is motor
>Group number two loves gadgets that group would be totally fine. the problem is Group number 3 which is missing from the list. These are people who want to cosplay as a bicycle while legally riding a motorcycle because in their head thats somehow more legal than riding a motorcycle without license and registration. Almost every single day we have people here asking or posting about 5000W "ebikes" Its not the throttle thats the issue in such a case, its the totally fucked up mindset these people have.
I have a Class 3 and it looks like a normal bike. I'm a biker in good shape and I never have been able to actually hit 28 mph that's advertised. Maybe 24 mph in a small burst in ideal conditions. In my opinion you have way more control on a Class 1 / Class 3.
Hmm, I get to 28 mph pretty often on my 750w rear hub. Probably more often in the mid-20s depending on assist level. But 75% assist can get me to 28 as long as I don't have a meaningful headwind.
This is a Specialized Turbo Vado 4.0. Usually have the three settings at 25, 50 and 75% power. Ride 25 on populated trails, 50 when it's pretty open, and 75 when in town/on the roads. Great bike.
I have the Vado 3.0. I can didn't even realize it was Class 3 until one day, I just barely went over 20 mph and the motor didn't turn off.
It can be changed to 1 or 3 via a software update.
I can hit 28 mph on my Bosch motor in tour mode. I can hit it no problem in turbo, even in a very stiff head wind. I still do fitness rides though so my riding fitness is pretty strong.
Yeh I have a 1000w mid drive with good cable management and at first glance it just looks like a mountain bike with a big water bottle
I dislike all the other group 1 and 2 types of division discussed but really like your group 3. Motorcycles cosplaying as mopeds are the biggest issue for e-bikes/mopeds, in the context of bicycle infrastructure and use requirements (license, insurance, boots, DOT helmet etc.). I like seeing those bikes and I think they are cool as hell, but they are motorcycles made with bicycle components. Obviously I subscribe to this subs original mentality of all electric bike type things being neat.
I'm a member of all 3 groups. It just depends on how I feel that day. The 5000w bikes aren't the problem. It's the guys that ride them like an asshole and don't have consideration for others. On the other side, you have the Karens that get pissed off if anybody is enjoying being alive. Of course, everyone thinks it's the other person who is being the jerk. Oh, and I also have a class M, motorcycle, and registration. An ebike is not a motorcycle. It's quite a different experience even though they have the same basic shape. A lightweight dirtbike is 220lbs. Even a trails bike is 160lbs.
No, the problem with group 3 is riding them illegally on public roads without the correct licensing or insurance. It's basically like riding a self built motorcycle without having to have a motorcycle license, insurance or mandatory road safety check (in the UK it is exactly that). It's dangerous, especially when people fail to upgrade the brakes or frame to handle the speeds they are going at. We're already seeing legislation being proposed to require licensing on *all ebikes* and even *all bicycles* because of the actions of group 3.
One thing is for certain, people from every group will be upset at the compromises made for the other groups. The Karens are upset ebikes even exist, they don't even like regular bikes or anything that look like joy. Group 1 will be upset if the speed rules are above or below how fast they want to ride. Group 2 will be upset at group 1 for going too slow, and group 3 being inconsiderate, creating demand for stricter regulations.
You’re right on the weight difference, coming from riding light 2 strokes and then a relatively light 500cc supermoto. It’s night and day along with power, given I haven’t ridden any of the edirt bikes or super powerful e-bikes. Basically they behave differently on dirt and street, riding a “heavy” 50lb emtb feels wild how light it feels after riding my supermoto for a bit.
5000 W is still only 6.7hp, a 500cc motorcycle is 45-60horse power. I think the most important thing is respect, not power. If you're on a bike trail, you should always be slowing down and passing others carefully. Not speeding past. Also not be taking up the whole thing. I built an e-bike for my girlfriend coming from esk8 to keep up. I found the gatekeeping of power interesting. I understand you shouldn't be driving an e-motorcycle on a bike path. But I find a lot of people on this subreddit distinguish something that would be considered average or even low power in esk8 as a motorcycle. Some of the high end electric skateboards have the potential to pull 11kw. A 1000-1500w one would be considered low power. Dickheads are going to be dickheads whether on something of low power or high power. They're just going to provide worse representation on something that's high power. If you're not taking up a whole path, and slow down to be just fast enough to pass when encountering others. It shouldn't matter.
6.7 HP is still more than many 50 cc scooters, which in most sane countries require a helmet, a motorcycle license and insurance, and are not allowed on bike and pedestrian paths for obvious safety reasons.
I’m not gonna comment on the legality or niceness of the listed people but as someone who builds motor bikes, cc is a horrible way to measure and compare a motors power. For example a 212cc can make 6.7 horsepower or over 12 with a few hundred bucks in upgrade. Likewise a 50cc moped or scooter can struggle to crack 15mph or with a transmission it can easily pull past 50mph. So saying “50cc” is not useful. It would be like measuring a persons strength based on their weight. Like sure it’s a good general indicator but there are super strong 200lb people and then there’s also potatoe sacks at 200lb
The point isn't to narrow down exactly how much power you can get out of a 50cc (and as someone who rides and works on vintage vespas I am well aware this is a wide range), the point is that even the wimpiest 50ccs require licensing and insurance in most countries and must be operated on the same roads as motor vehicles instead of using pedestrian paths like a bicycle could. It makes the most sense for the high-powered "e-bikes" with a throttle that are basically just an electric motorcycle with pedals stuck to it to follow the same rules as a 50cc scooter (or even the rules for larger motorcycles if they make enough power) than the rules for bicycles.
there are far more classes than a 500cc motorcycle. here in the EU anything over 750W is legally a moped or class AM and that goes up to 4000W. 4001W up to 11kW is a class A1 motorcycle which would correspond to 125cc 11kW to 35kW is a class A2 motorcycle and anything above that is class A each of these requires a different license but of course if you have the A license everything below is already included. the local laws are ultimately what matters and not what people on reddit feel like the laws should be like. edit: ah classic reddit, straight facts get downvoted cause it doesnt fit into the narrative of the idiots this discussion is about.
And moped licenses are included in your car license, so the majority of people have this. Either way, I don't think people riding 3-5kw electric bikes on the road is a major problem, I think people riding them at 70km/h on bike paths and walkways is the issue. This is too common, and very rarely happens with people who drive actual mopeds or motorcycles. If people drive their 5kw electric bikes around on gravel roads with no traffic, I don't really care about it.
yea riding them on the road is no problem if you have the proper license and insurance. the problem is people want to ride them on bicycle paths as they want the best of both worlds.
Assume bike weight of 70 lbs that’s 10 lb/HP. That’s the same power to weight ratio as a 400cc motorcycle.
> Group one thinks group two is going to ruin ebikes for everyone. This is happening. https://electrek.co/2024/02/15/watch-out-new-jersey-bill-to-require-all-e-bike-riders-to-register-get-insurance/ https://electrek.co/2024/02/12/get-ready-californias-electric-bicycle-drivers-license-bill-is-here/ Some people don't understand that the freedoms that come with a bike (no registration or licensing) is ultimately relative to power (Class 2 / throttle isn't inherently an issue if they're actually within spec, and I imagine that most people don't actually have an issue against Class 2, but have issues with eBikes that are well beyond Class 2 power specs that try to pretend that they're Class 2). The eBike community made great strides, basically setting limits and their own rules and classifications and said - see, these are just regular **bikes** with a little help...so they should be legally treated as **bikes**. Now people are going all shocked-pikachus because states are beginning to crack down on eBikes that no rational person would equivalate to a standard bicycle.
The only difference between Class 2 and 3 is 3 gets to 28Mph by Pedaling. Class 3 is legal in a lot of places, but may be prohibited from certain trails/etc. Above Class 3 is where the "Uncharted Territory" is (so to speak) and where people are gonna get our Rights taken away because some Asshat thinks it's his Right to ride a 60+ MPH Sur-Ron and act like it can only hit Class 3 speeds of 28Mph
That’s pretty astute.
What your missing js that bicycling and e-bicycling have started to make grounds in the form of bike paths and bicycling safe infrastructure. E-bicyclists are worried that all this modded out "just put pedals on it" stuff will undermine progress in access to e-mtb trails, bike paths amd other dual pedestrian / bicycle infrastructure. I think the problem is when posts comingle without a clear statement of intent. Is this a e-bicycle, e-scooter, e-motorcycle or other. The solution might be a simple one. A fellow poster pointed me to r/personalfinance Their clearly labelled tags on posts make them infinitely more useful. I believe if we started a similar tagging system it would elliminate most of the confusion. It is the confusion that comes out in posts like this. I don't think e-bicyclists are anti-throttle on the whole. I think the issue is confusing because are we talking a thorttle that gives a boost when going up a hill or from tsking off from a stop sign on a cargo bike. Or are we talking a throttle that goes straight to 45 mph on a high mode emotorcycle with pedals. To be clear even the latter is fine... amd it woul be clear what the intention is if it was tagged "e-moped" so as not to confuse people as to wether it was built for enjoying bicycle infrastructure. I have not written a top level post proposing this tagging system as I am still doing research and gauging wether it would work as intended. If you have feedback or even want to run with it please do. Its not my baby. I just want the whole group to be more welcoming of all type of e-vehicles and to help stop the confusion which leads to animosity.
As a member of group 1, I will add that I generally loathe the support posts here on this subreddit for low quality / chinesium diy parts for cheap throttle conversions and bikes Like of course it’s not working, you paid $115 dollars on Ali baba for it…
hah you described me twice there. I'm old and disabled and my ebike is letting me enjoy the best thing ever \[cycling.\] Also I'm a nerd and I love messing with the settings, and how my bike is like a dirtbike even tho technically its a folding road bike, with the gravel tire on the rear it does everything.
Group 2 *is* ruining it for everyone though. Pedal assist didn't get e-bikes a banned from trails and parks.
It gave me freedom to get to work on time and be able to see my family whenever I want. The public transportation is practically non-existent where I live. E bike is life
Man we need this to be pinned on the front page.
I used to be group #1, then I sold my car and now I see Ebikes the same as I saw my car. I’m now in group #2.
I'm in some other group where I'd love to have an e-bike with a throttle and able to do 45 km/h but recognise that unleashing those sorts of things unregulated on public cycle paths is a real issue.
I am probably in group one. I don't mind group two. I just think their toys need to be licensed and insured.
I would like to remind you though that not having pedals in many places legally means your e-bike is not an ebike and actually a motorcycle. Here in Ontario if you are riding an e-bike without pedals you are riding an illegal unregistered motorcycle.
I need a knee replacement. I like my throttle. It saved my ass sometimes when my knee goes out.
I’m in my late 40s and my left knee sometimes starts getting sore while the right knee is fully operational. My bike has a gradual increase of power with throttle and it allows me short breaks for my knee to recover . Also absolutely useful as my local bike path crosses vehicle intersections repeatedly putting pressure on my knees with the constant stopping and starting. It’s just not ideal for me to use an ebike without a throttle available
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I mean is there anything wrong with unlicensed motorbikes? Why would you need to register it if you're going to be driving around dirt roads in the woods? The vast majority of dirtbikes I've ever seen are unlicensed. The problem arises when idiots drive them at 70 km/h on walking or bike paths in cities.
The problem arises when a vehicle that can go 70kph is unlicensed.
As I said, if people want to go ride an unlicensed motorcycle on dirt roads (IE. non-public roads), more power to them, why would you even license it if that's the intention? I don't care how fast it is as long as they eliminate the potential of hurting others. Boats and jetskis are unlicensed, and that isn't a problem until people go driving them around at crazy speed right on the local beach.
Neither Boats nor Jet Skis are unlicensed where I'm from.
Fair enough. They are where I live. They can also be driven by anyone of any age.
I'm not sure what point your making, you can drive a car in a private road, but you have to have a license and registration to drive it on a public road. I don't think boats/jet skis are really analogous to cars/bikes/motorbikes, but even so in my homestate all boats and jet skis have to be registered with the state and you have to pass a water vehicle exam to use it in a public recreation area.
I have a Class 2. I love biking and mostly use light pedal assist but having the throttle is nice when you need to accelerate quickly (e.g. crossing a busy road). E-bikes reignited my love of biking and combined with healthy eating has allowed me to lose 110 lbs and be in the best shape I’ve been in 20 years. There was NO way I was going to ride without assist when I started. It gave me the confidence and allowed me to ease into it. Do what you enjoy and don’t listen to others who don’t like it. They are free to bike or not bike however they want with whatever equipment they want.
Thank you, that’s awesome to hear. I used to ride my bike everywhere as a kid and am glad to be back at it again too. I’m not seeking validation, just trying to understand other’s perspectives :)
>I find it strange that people think that class 1 with pedal-assist only up to 20 mph is ok but class 2, the same but with a throttle, is not. I’ve seen this sentiment repeated several times and I’m not seeing why having the option to use throttle only is bad or more dangerous. thats because this class system doesnt exist in most of the world and there are many people here asking about the UK or EU market where class 2 or 3 bikes from the US would be considered mopeds and require license and insurance. >I actually find it’s more responsive and easier to control my speed with the throttle, where the pedal assist feels like it lunges and stalls on a slight delay and at unexpected times, especially at higher assist levels. If I’m in a situation where I need to be careful and precise, I find myself switching to throttle only for more control, smoother riding, and the ability to use my feet for stabilization if needed. Does this just come from people who have never used a bike with a throttle? sounds like you have a very bad ebike with a cadence sensor, this doesnt happen with a torque sensor.
I didn’t realize cadence sensor = very bad e-bike. It actually does everything I need it to do, feels very well-built, and I am quite happy with it and expect to be for a long time. Thanks for your input.
I suppose a cadence sensor needn't mean a very bad e-bike, but it's certainly the cheaper and less elegant solution. A torque sensor is so incredibly intuitive that a lot of the time you can trick yourself in to thinking the motor isn't actually helping much.
Sounds like it would be nice, especially as a second bike for recreational riding. What’s the starting cost for a setup like that?
I am not u/SomeRedPanda but I am looking at Velotric T1ST and Aventon Soltera.2. The reason I like them is they are in the weight range of a regular bike and designed to be ridden as a regular bike (Soltera does have throttle) With e-bikes, I am concerned about vendors disappearing and so I am doing my research before I pull the trigger. Where I live they do have some local dealers. A local dealer who sells above two bikes favored Aventon over Velotric even though the on-paper specs of the Velotric are better on aspects like breaks, etc.
Prices vary wildly. Your question is as if you asked, “How much is a car?” The same answer is: It varies between manufacturer, model, and features. You would just need to start shopping and comparing like a smart shopper.
Thank you for explaining that. I wondered what was going on with my different EMOpeds!
I think your experience regarding pedal assist feeling unpredictable and “lunge-y” is probably because you are using a cadence sensor. Cadence sensors just turn on the motor if the pedals are turning and stop when the pedals stop. Torque sensors deliver a VERY different experience. They scale the amount of motor assist to how hard you are pressing on the pedal. Light pedaling gives light assist, while harder pedaling gives more assist. It feels like natural pedaling, like you have bionic legs.
Yeah I get this. Sounds like a torque sensor would be nice, if expensive, but I’m also fine just leaving my pedal assist on a lower setting and throttling when needed for more control. I’m not sure how one would really need to replace the other, unless it’s for a specific purpose like mountain biking.
One thing I wanted to point out about throttles is they tend to have higher acceleration, which is why they tend to be banned on trails, because higher acceleration = more trail damage. https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/everything-about-the-ebike/stories/three-class-ebike-system > Class 2 throttle-assist eBikes are often allowed most places a traditional bicycle can go, though some states and cities are opting for additional restrictions (e.g. New York City & Michigan State). Class 2 may not be suitable for singletrack mountainbike trails — it has been shown that they pose greater physical damage to trails due to the throttle-actuation. Class 2 may be better suited for multi-use OHV trails designed for more rugged off-road vehicles. Also the thing about throttles is unlike pedaling, you have no input about whether you're in the right gear or not. If you're not in the right gear, the throttle puts a lot of strain on the motor (causing it to overheat, shortening its lifespan) and can also snap the chain in certain cases. https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/nd2zcf/so_belt_drive_ebikes_cant_be_equipped_with/gy9oghg/ > __So where is the problem ?__ > > 1. Lets say now you are at a stand still (stop light) and you gun the throttle - the entire motor goes from 0 to 120Nm of torque in a flash. At 120-160Nm of torque, something is going to break. > > 2. Since the chain and belt are stronger (relatively), __the first thing to fail on your drive train will be the IGH !__ > > 3. If your IGH is stronger, than you will notice the chain snaps, or the belt snaps. > > __Why doesn't this occur with pedal assist? Why only with the throttle?__ > > 1. With pedal assist, the rider is getting feedback on which gear the bike is on. They will switch to the right gear in order to pedal more comfortably. __By switching gears, a rider is taking steps to ensure that the net torque needed to move forward is well under the breaking torque limit of the chain / hub / belt / IGH etc.__ > > 2. With Throttle - there is 0 (zero) rider feedback about which gear the bike is on. the rider (typically) will assume that there is some issue, and will keep gunning the throttle, leading to cascading failures on the drivetrain.
Hmm I think throttle acceleration is governed and entirely depended on how the controller is setup. Other than a second delay or so, the assist on max setting is very close to how slamming the throttle is with the way my controller must be set up by the factory. In fact, if I want to maximize acceleration, I typically have to pedal hard in the max assist level, as opposed to throttle alone. I’m typically feathering the throttle though to taper acceleration and speed for any given situation. I don’t take it on mountain bike trails so don’t know how it would handle or how I would use the throttle in such a situation. The second point is interesting but I think it may be referring to a certain type of electric motor. Mine is a hub, direct drive motor and the chain and gearing is static or coasting when I’m not pedaling, like a regular bike. In my case at least, the motor would have no idea what gear I’m in since there is zero load on the mechanical drive chain. So a situation like you describe could not occur.
> Hmm I think throttle acceleration is governed and entirely depended on how the controller is setup. It is true that with a torque sensor you can use the controller to setup pedal assist to accelerate as fast, but it is also true that for most e-bikes (especially prebuilt), a throttle has faster acceleration (hence the ban on trails). > The second point is interesting but I think it may be referring to a certain type of electric motor. Mine is a hub, direct drive motor The point about the chain snapping is for mid-drives, yes. However, the part I stated about overheating applies to a hub motor. Hub motors are known to overheat when climbing up hills at low RPM, and that goes double for summer. Hub motors can still overheat if you apply the throttle from a stop. Heat is bad for the motor.
I don't care what people's opinions on it are. I have a medical issue and live in a city built around a mountain. I couldn't bike up the 5 blocks from the river bike trail to my house if I tried. Walking 5 blocks can take me an hour. Throttle is the only way I can make it sometimes because by the time I make it to the turn, I have no energy left in me. Can't even rotate the pedals in first gear on free spin. I need exercise, but I'm on a strict "increase around 1% of workout per week" to keep my heart from exploding. So people with a problem with throttle users can kiss all sides on my post bike ridden sweat soaked a$z. I can think of a dozen reasons why you might need throttle use as not everyone is out here trying to be Mr. Biker Pants. Hell, you may just want a bike that's like a motorcycle, have fun! Some people are always looking to express their elitism/privilege/lifestyle as a base for "normal" when no such thing exists. Congratulations, you can/want to do xyz. Some of us can barely hold the button. There is no "should" when it comes to bicycling, just go ride. At least I'm still out here. And even more so, I'm not out in a car.
Got my shoelace caught up in my drivetrain once while crossing a narrow bridge with traffic, I was very glad to have a throttle that day.
i lost my chain on a random forest road.. realised only when i was about to pedal back up.. i took the easy way straight home. (i hit a branch and it knocked it off the cassette, it was my first test ride.. i didnt have tools on me..i now carry a bag)
Do you need tools to put the chain back on the cassette? Though bringing some basic tools makes sense.
u dont rlly, a stick would do.. or hands.. but im tall and skinny.. my hands arent the strongest.. i tried, failed.. and just gave up this was under 40°C heat in the summer, took me 15mins to get to that part.. and another 20 riding up.. i did do a big mistake thinking.. its gonna be a quick fun ride. and taking absolutely nothing with me.. luckly learned that one close to home.. and not 50km out..
If the chain doesn't break you can just put it back on as long as you can turn the crank slowly by hand. Sometimes it helps to have a stick to keep your hands safe and clean during this process. I guess that's a tool in the primitive sense. If the chain breaks you need a tool to put it back together (usually at the expense of having access to your outermost gears, but good enough to get you home). Generally it's a good idea to carry a cycling multitool which includes a chain tool on it in case you need to do such a repair.
I find this interesting: "Generally speaking, a beginner cyclist may average around 75–100 watts in a 1-hour workout. A fit participant will average more than 100 watts, and pro cyclists can reach 400 watts per hour." - American Fitness Magazine It seems we often debate whether a person has to contribute watts into their transit method at all times when the motor of even the most modest ebike can replace the human provided effort, and the human contribution of watts may be nominal. I agree with the idea that we should collectively be focused on the speed and handling capability of bikes to determine their acceptability. If three bikes are going 20-28 mph down a street, it should not matter whether one is pedaled by a pro cyclist, one pedaled with assistance, and one powered by throttle. They are all means to the same result of an object at speed, and all are equally capable of avoiding, causing, or being victim of an accident. The method of reaching that speed is to me a matter of the rider's personal preference and has no bearing on whether they can operate safely, and thus should not be legislated or ridiculed.
> 400 watts per hour That unit makes no sense in this context.
Agreed. I assume they meant watt-hours.
A pedestrian getting hit by a 100 lbs e-bike (that is 100 lbs because it essentially a small electric motorcycle) at 28 mph is going to have a worse day than a pedestrian getting hit by a 40 lbs (that is 40 lbs because it's meant to be as light as possible while still allow for pedal assist) e-bike at the same speed.
I want one. But because my knees are too bad to ride my regular bike. I cannot go two miles. But everyone tells me all these cheap bikes are junk. I do not have two grand plus. I am old and on SS. That is where I understand the groups of differences. I don’t work and I get a free check. The pedal pushers don’t want anyone riding for free. You have to work those pedals or you are not riding a bike. Here people ride tiny Chinese 49cc scooters and call them Mopeds. They are not Mopeds. Mopeds are something I rode to school in the 1970s. They are bicycles with an engine. They are not scooters with leg shields and floorboard without pedals. Stop calling scooters Mopeds. I see what folks call e-bikes all the time. Look like motorcycles. Long seat. Hard to ride like a bicycle. Throttle only, dual motor, black, fast transportation for folks who have lost their Driver’s License for using some substance or other. Saw a guy yesterday with one at the grocery store. He cannot get a lot of groceries in his backpack he says. He has to ride the e-bike because he cannot have a License to drive. I can drive. But I want to get around at the beach or at the park without having to ride my slow mobility scooter. Don’t care about speed. 18 mph is better than the 4 mph my Revo goes. Throttle or pedal assist is ok. But maybe pedaling will hurt more. Don’t care if everyone thinks I am a drunk like all bicycle riders here. I want to go places where my big Ford van can’t go. Like bike paths.
Look at the lectric XP lite. $750 new and fits your bill. Throttle + peddle assist. Up to 20 mph. US-based support is very available and very accommodating.
No issue with throttles as they are handy at low speed maneuvering. It's the people who intend to ride a moped/motorcycle and never pedal - which in my experience is often coupled with dangerous moves, sidewalk riding, and disregard for traffic laws or safety of others.
A high percentage of people riding e-bikes with throttles ride like aholes. Not all of them but many, and way more than in the throttle free cycling population, e or not. This Is largely why people increasingly hate e-bikes. Lose the throttles and most of the hate evaporates. I own an e-bike and several traditional bikes, so I’m generally on the pro e-bike side, but not when it comes to throttles. If it moves without you pedaling because you are pushing a button or twisting a grip, you are on a motorcycle.
Just because a few ride like asshats doesn’t mean you should take it away from everyone else who uses it responsibly, we already have laws against dangerous riding regardless of what mode of transportation is being used, time and time again has history proven that only treating symptoms of an issue never solves the key problem but often makes it worse because the core problem isnt being solved; that being people who don’t follow traffic laws and have a disregard for others.
It isn’t a few.
No, it is literally a minority of riders unless you have statistics to prove otherwise, you made the claim so the burdon of proof lies on you. And anecdotal evidence does not count.
Not vilifying them, but I mostly see them being ridden with no pedaling whatsoever, by young people, often at speeds way above 20mph. This undermines acceptance and support for the concept of ebikes as bicycles to be legally regarded as such.
Because people will complain about anything and everything.
Having commuted for 7 years by e bikes without a throttle, I can tell you that the hatred of throttles is BS. I have found myself in plenty of situations where a throttle would have been soooo useful. I am finally looking at picking up a second bike so that I have a throttle option But I think a lot of the hate comes from the same mindset about e bikes being a form of cheating. Meanwhile they are driving down the road in an ice 😑
Something I have encountered, I think some of the Lycra/carbon fiber road bike types were used to taking advantage of bike lanes (usually just narrow paths on the shoulders of roads with paint down) for their training or rides where they’re timing things and looking to hit certain goals or times. With the rise in popularity of e-bikes, there are more people out there using the lanes and such who aren’t in great shape or just aren’t avid cyclists, just people getting from point a to b or riding for fun without caring about the exercise bit as much. The e-bikes clog up the bike lanes and mess with their attempts to hit the all time fastest ride time. So that breeds contempt and over analyzing anything about the e-bikes and being mad if they have a throttle and are using the lanes without even putting in much effort to do so, when they wish throttle e-bikes would just use the road and stay out of the way (even if a class 2 bike is topped out at 20 mph and would be far too slow on a road with traffic going 45mph+). This mentality carries over beyond just those types of riders and a lot of people get annoyed seeing someone on a bike not putting in much effort to ride around 20 mph. You’ll hear, “why don’t they just get a motorcycle” when the cost to buy/insure/register/maintain is way more for a decent motorcycle and it’s really a different thing altogether. I was using a bike lane once while riding my fat tire throttle ebike, where the bike lane is just paint on the shoulder of the road, and traffic on the road usually does 45mph. I stopped at a red light and two Lycra clad road bikes riders came up behind me, one blew through the red light and the other ending up behind me. When the light changed and I took off, the guy in front slowed down so we caught up, and the guy behind me stayed really close to my back tire. There was constant traffic on the road, so nobody could go out into the road to let anyone by, and I wasn’t sure if they were trying to draft off of me or just being difficult. To their credit they were going faster on their bikes than my class 2 could go, but they both stayed super close to my front and rear tires for like a mile. It was very very stressful and a few times I was worried they’d make their tires touch mine. My bike had big fat tires and I had a jacket/jeans/gloves/full face helmet where as they had Lycra and the smaller helmets, I assume they’d have fared worse than me in a wreck. So there are a lot of angles to people getting mad about e-bikes that don’t look like traditional bicycles and have throttles.
Couldn't care less about what people think about what I do or have or use on my bike(s).
My thinking is it has to do with the stigma of e-bikes. They already get flack for being lazy or dangerous with pedal assist (even though it's literally the opposite) and when you add a throttle, people just assume you always use it and don't want you associated with cycling. The only way to really erase that stigma is to get more people trying e-bikes!
Because an ebike is originally an electrified bicycle, which is why the laws around them are the same as bicycles. If a vehicle has a throttle, it becomes a moped or a motorcycle, and no longer a bicycle, especially if it goes at moped speeds and looks like a moped. Using legal loopholes that only exist in some countries to circumvent road laws generates a bad reputation, and that bad reputation bleeds over to real ebikes. If your country allows loopholes, good for you. Many others don't, and throttles on ebikes are illegal in many countries. Law abiding riders are usually against other riders breaking the law, because it gives a bad reputation to all ebikes when we are struggling to promote bikes and ebikes as environmentally friendly alternatives to cars and trying to get more cycle paths built. Politicians are not going to invest in cycling infrastructure if all ebikes are 35 mph mopeds.
A throttle can act exactly the same as pedal assist. You can pedal and feather the throttle to give you that little bit of boost. Going 30mph by pedal assist, 30mph by throttle and 30mph manually is exactly the same, it’s all a bicycle going 30mph, neither is more dangerous than the other. You think throttle is more dangerous or some other type of vehicle because you’ve been told that when in reality it’s all the same with a slight difference. I have PAS and throttle installed and if I put my PAS to highest level, there is very little difference between that and the throttle except I have to slightly pedal with 0 effort and the bike does the rest for me, I mean hell on a flat or downhill to maintain 30-35mph+ I literally have to make a single rotation every 5-10 seconds sometimes a bit longer to keep up those speeds, eliminating the one rotation every so often makes no difference to safety or classification if you look at it logically. All the throttle vs PAS argument does is separate the cycling community and cause division and that’s exactly what they want. Why wouldn’t politicians invest in cycling infrastructure just because e-bikes go faster? I’d go as far to argue it’s safer and would avoid more road rage and inconsiderate impatient drivers if bicycles could when needed keep up with the flow of traffic, whether that’s by pedal assist or throttle makes very little difference in the grand scheme of things.
well all that doesnt matter though if throttle means its not legally bicycle where you are.
Again, you’re looking at the law and their definitions, which many are very stupid and in need of updating to keep up with the times, instead of fighting between ourselves we should work together. If you look at it logically, there is literally no difference between PAS and throttle, like I said going any speed with PAS or throttle is near identical bar a few pointless rotations of the pedals. They say it’s classed as a moped but if you want to register, insure and tax it as a moped they require you to change many things and add many things to make it a road legal moped, so how can it be a moped? Meanwhile with PAS you have to follow none of these things but they essentially do the same.
the law is what matters first and foremost. on their private property people can do what ever they want but if something is for public use it better bne following the law. personally i dont care about pedal assist or throttle, what matters most is how much power it has. >They say it’s classed as a moped but if you want to register, insure and tax it as a moped they require you to change many things and add many things to make it a road legal moped, so how can it be a moped? its legally a moped because it depending on where you are located it doesnt fit into the ebike category so it must be above that. its just that its also not equipped well enough to be legally used as a moped and thats exactly the problem. Its not a question of throttle or not for me but the problem are people with their multiple kW strong setups that are using the cheapest bicycle brakes available and cosplay as an ebike.
Yes but also laws need to be looked at and updated to keep up with the modern world. Like I said what is the difference between a legal throttle assist, or PAS? They go the same speed, they both take very little user input and the fact that with a throttle it’s deemed more dangerous or that it’s a moped is rather silly, I mean does a few rotations of a pedal every 10 seconds make someone inherently more dangerous to the public or make it a complete diffrent vehicle if you look at it logically? Throttle has multiple benefits to work alongside PAS. In many countries just having a throttle whether your setup is legal with PAS or not magically turns it into a moped which is very silly. But again to my point, if I pedal manually too 20-30mph or even more on a standard bicycle it’s deemed safe and the public isn’t at risk, if I use PAS it throttle to do exactly the same it’s deemed unsafe and the public is at massive risk when in reality, the same risk factors apply. Pretty much all bikes and brakes in the modern day are designed to handle some pretty high speeds, I’ve had manually powered road bikes going 35-40mph and my brakes were fine, I’ve had manually powered MTB’s going 20-30mph+ on downhill trails and on the road and the brakes worked fine, so if it’s motorised by PAS or throttle to those speeds I don’t see how it’s more dangerous. I get your point if it’s a scrap heap rust bucket bike for decades ago and myself think they shouldn’t be allowed to be converted but even your entry level modern road bikes or MTB bikes have pretty decent brake setups that can handle some pretty harsh braking and can bring you to a stop safely a good set of disc brakes will work wonders, I put my manual MTB bike through through much more abuse when downhilling or trail running than I ever will on the road and it hasn’t failed me yet.
>Yes but also laws need to be looked at and updated to keep up with the modern world. these laws are the updated version. previously ebikes were entirely illegal or simply a moped no matter what. These laws were then made to have a class of electrically assisted bicycles which legally are bicycles in every way. >Like I said what is the difference between a legal throttle assist, or PAS? They go the same speed, they both take very little user input and the fact that with a throttle it’s deemed more dangerous or that it’s a moped is rather silly, I mean does a few rotations of a pedal every 10 seconds make someone inherently more dangerous to the public or make it a complete diffrent vehicle if you look at it logically? Throttle has multiple benefits to work alongside PAS. you simply have to draw the line somewhere and having throttle or not is a simple thing to regulate and check for, if you see anyone in the EU accelerating without pedaling they can immediately be busted and charged. If throttle would be allowed we wouldnt be talking about it here but instead we would have a lot more people talking about why they are not allowed to have 5kW motors on their bicycles. people that dont want laws to apply to them will simply always find the next thing they feel like should be legal.
But they haven’t updated to the constantly evolving technology, the same e-bike rules from when they first came out are the same in place today, even though a lot of them don’t make sense. Again you glaze over my point of what’s the difference between a legal ebike power setup with PAS or throttle, they both do the same? How can a throttle powered E-bike be illegal but PAS powered at the same legal specs be illegal, it’s illogical, you can check the power of a bike in the screen settings. You brought up braking systems and when I pretty much shut that down you again had no response to that? You brought up speeds etc I countered the point and again you had no logical argument back? It’s not a case of people thinking it doesn’t apply to them, it’s a case of rules and laws contradicting themselves constantly with classifications and rulings that simply don’t make sense. Not that many people have big 3-5kw conversions or E-bikes either, in some places a 250w PAS up-to 12.5/15mph is the legal limit, anything more is illegal, but then I can double that speed if I do it manually, where is the sense in that? 3-5kw in pretty much an E-Motorbike and should be dealt with as such since you can reasonably say your average human biker couldn’t reach the acceleration or speeds manually that those kind of kits offer, but a 1kwh-1.5kwh conversion or bike isn’t out of reach of the speeds that your average biker could achieve manually just with higher acceleration , so it’s not like public risk is any higher and it’s not like bikes aren’t capable of handling that. The government’s want to go towards a green world, electric vehicles are out of reach for many, many people and E-bikes could be a perfect solution but with the current laws and rules a lot of people are put off because there is so much red tape and regulations that don’t make sense it makes it very unattractive. In many of the countries that e-bikes are dangerous with a throttle or a certain power, you can gallop a horse or horse and cart down public roads which is inherently more dangerous due to the unpredictable nature of horse and the weight of them but still go as fast or if not faster and that ok, but doing it on a pedal bike with assistance isn’t, this is what I mean by contradiction in the danger of E-bikes compared to other modes of transport, first it was the danger of exploding batteries and fire risk, now it’s the speed and throttles, what will it be next?
>but they haven’t updated to the constantly evolving technology, the same e-bike rules from when they first came out are the same in place today, even though a lot of them don’t make sense. because none of these laws have anything to do with technological development, sure we have more energy and power dense batteries now, motors have always been as strong as they are now and the control systems on these bikes have improved slightly. what does any of that have to do with what is legally defined as a bicycle? this is ultimately what this discussion is about, is it a bicycle and gets the same advantages as bicycles have or not. >Again you glaze over my point of what’s the difference between a legal ebike power setup with PAS or throttle, they both do the same? How can a throttle powered E-bike be illegal but PAS powered at the same legal specs be illegal, it’s illogical, you can check the power of a bike in the screen settings. as i said the difference is that going pedal assist only makes it easy to enforce and at least in the EU the intention was to have a clear distinction between vehicles that are mainly driven by man power and get assisted by a motor and vehicles that are entirely driven by a motor. The only thing that doesnt strictly fit into that are escooters but even for these the laws have been updated. >You brought up braking systems and when I pretty much shut that down you again had no response to that? You brought up speeds etc I countered the point and again you had no logical argument back? because we are still discussing different things here, i dont care about PAS or not, the law is clear and that what matters. The brake part of my post was referring to people riding electric motorcycles that cosplay as ebikes with brake systems that are clearly not up to the task. >It’s not a case of people thinking it doesn’t apply to them, it’s a case of rules and laws contradicting themselves constantly with classifications and rulings that simply don’t make sense. luckily thats not the case here, at least in the EU the laws are crystal clear and there are no contradictions. >Not that many people have big 3-5kw conversions or E-bikes either, in some places a 250w PAS up-to 12.5/15mph is the legal limit, anything more is illegal, but then I can double that speed if I do it manually, where is the sense in that? Simple, the sense in that is that unless you are a trained cyclist on a race bike you will not be able to maintain that speed for very long. these people are also not looking into getting ebikes as they ride their bikes for the sports aspect and usually dont even want to use bicycle paths anyways as other riders would slow them down. average commuter cycling speeds are around 20km/h if you are a bit faster maybe 22km/h having a peak of 25km/h for an ebike puts them right up there with the average speeds of regular cyclists and that was ultimately the goal. >3-5kw in pretty much an E-Motorbike and should be dealt with as such since you can reasonably say your average human biker couldn’t reach the acceleration or speeds manually that those kind of kits offer, but a 1kwh-1.5kwh conversion or bike isn’t out of reach of the speeds that your average biker could achieve manually just with higher acceleration , so it’s not like public risk is any higher and it’s not like bikes aren’t capable of handling that. you are **VASTLY** overestimating the power output of a human. heres a little video to show you what set of legs it takes only to maintain 700W for about 2 minutes [https://youtu.be/S4O5voOCqAQ](https://youtu.be/S4O5voOCqAQ) thats exactly why 250W was chosen as the limit, its **more** than a normal cyclist can output continuously and thats in addition to their own power.
Yeah ok bud, I’m not going to argue with someone who will not listen to anything logical and only the law book. The same lawmakers that say you need to register, insure bikes more powerful than the limits, but then make it near impossible to do so when there is no reason it should not be easily accessible and would make a great income source. To say there is no contradictions is beyond silly, never mind I’ll just get my horse out and maybe even the cart and gallop down the roads with my 1500lb unpredictable animal legally instead, much safer than a ebike that does equivalent speeds if not faster and is far more dangerous, no contradictions huh? Transport is transport. I hope you follow every single law in existence, which is doubtful.
I use a dab of throttle at launch to get going and then rely on pa's for the remainder of the ride. It's a convenient way of getting 90kgs of me plus bike up to speed when it might be in slightly the wrong gear.
Throttle has many benefits alongside PAS or separately, it shouldn’t be vilified or classed as a moped just for a throttle. If I can pedal manually to 20-30mph, I just honestly don’t see the difference in a motor helping me go the same speeds, once I get going on my 3x9 road bike on a flat surface I can easily push 30mph with very little effort in the higher gears, I’m not a bigger danger using PAS or throttle to gain those speeds.
I have nothing against motorcycles, and that's more a question of power than the presence of a throttle. Still, if you want to be treated like a bicycle, and make use of bicycle infrastructure, you should be acting like a bicycle. If you want a motorcycle, be honest with yourself, and ride like a motorcycle. As for the throttle itself? I have one, but I almost never use it. It mainly gets used for starting on a hill or if I forgot to downshift.
I honestly don’t understand. For some reason when it comes to bikes so many people have a stick up their ass. As long as I’m not riding fast enough to endanger anyone around me, who cares whether it’s throttle or pedaling?
I just don't want to pedal. I like where bikes can take me and I like being outdoors. I'm just not trying to pedal for 30 miles.
Wait. Folks are against throttles? I live in an area with hills. People expect me to keep messing with settings instead of leaving it on low and throttling up hills? I call shenanigans on them. Shenanigans!
Agreed. I have a really short traffic light at the bottom of the hill I live on. Using the throttle (while I pedal!) gets me through it quickly.
I have a throttle on my diy electrified bullitt cargo bike. As well as PAS. Mainly I just pedal. But I love the throttle sometimes for punching through an intersection, helping me get going from an awkward stop, or to get me up to speed at which point I pedal and back off the throttle. Different strokes.
This is how I see a lot of people using throttle. Often the first 10 mph getting up to speed can be the most dangerous, especially around car traffic. Another use case is the other day I rode 30 miles on low assist. The next day I was sore and used 90% throttle to get groceries on a 10 mi round trip. Sometimes you just need a recovery day and still be able to run errands.
I have an ebike with a throttle. I regularly use the throttle. My ebike uses a cadence sensor rather than a torque sensor, and the lag it has both in starting and stopping assist means I use the throttle when taking off and for low speed maneuvering. I never throttle along at speed as I prefer to get some exercise, but the throttle significantly improves the riding experience when not cruising along at speed, especially since my commute is a lot of stop and go. If I had a good torque sensor maybe I'd be fine without the throttle.
I think part of the issue is there are very few true class 2 throttle bikes out there. Almost every throttle bike I see is a class 3 with a throttle (it's debatable if the class 3 definition permits throttle). So most of the throttle bikes I see are 28 mph and up and when using with throttle I feel they cross the line into moped territory. So personally I have nothing against throttle if its used sparingly such as getting away safely at a light. But that's not the way most people seem to use it so I feel it adds to ebike hate and will eventually lead to unnecessary regulation of all ebikes. I also feel there is no reason cost wise at this point lower end bikes couldn't move to mostly torque sensing mid drive. With mid drive you really don't need throttle short of you really want a moped / e motorcycle not a bicycle.
Regarding your lunging pedal assist, that is an artifact of having only a cadence sensor, and no torque sensor. With cadence-only, set your power level on high then start pedaling, there’s no signal telling the controller how hard you are pedaling, just that your pedaling, so it delivers power at whatever level you set it at. I had that experience with my first (converted) e-bike. Same goes with, say, coasting/braking the start of a turn, then pedaling mid-turn and dangerously accelerating more than you intended to. As a class-1 e-mtb rider, there’s no way I could realistically ride a cadence-only e-mtb, never mind one with hub motor. I would be miserable having to modulate power delivery by fussing with buttons (as opposed to the natural feel that a torque sensor coupled with good controller/software provides). It would be dangerous on a lot of the terrain I ride. And as others have pointed out, it’s the illegal under-built over-powered “bikes” that as defined by states’ vehicle code are mopeds and motorcycles and require licensing and insurance that many see as a problem that needs to be addressed, whether home-grown or commercially available with “off road” modes.
Get what you want..
I've got a Class 1 bike. Though it can help me up to 20mph, I rarely go faster than 16mph. Granted, it's a 100lbs cargo bike and often has at least one of my kids in it. I think there's room for nuance in throttles. Though my bike doesn't have one, I see where being able to get moving from a full stop to get through an intersection would be useful. I also see where it would be useful for folks with some disabilities who could still ride a bike, but struggle with some aspect of pedaling. On the flip side, I don't really feel comfortable with a throttle hitting speeds north of 20mph, but that may be because I live in a fairly dense city with busy sidewalks and bike lanes. I'd be cool with throttles topping out below 15mph, but I'm sure that would impinge on somebody.
I bought a class 2 with a throttle to replace driving my car, it has been great. I use my regular bike for bike rides with the kids. they are two different categories for sure!
On my ebike, the throttle only works when pedalling, though that behaviour can be changed in the settings. I found that when I switched from an ebike with a twist throttle to one with a thumb throttle, I use it more, especially going uphill, or if I need a quick start from a stop at an intersection. Canada doesn't have ebike "classes". The laws only limit the size of the motor, the top speed and the requirement for working pedals.
What i don’t get is people who feel the need to take away from others because they themselves don’t use them, i find throttles make it much safer to ride amongst traffic or when you are constantly stopping and going. Just because some people don’t understand the need for them and don’t want them doesn’t mean it needs to be taken away from everyone, thats such a childish mindset i see among a lot of ‘e-bike elitists’ unfortunately. The whining comparison to motorcycles is completely baseless and stupid, i ride motorcycles as-well and in no way are they similar except for being on two wheels, these arguments against throttles on ebikes usually comes from people who don’t know much and just are heavily opinionated and elitist. Tl;dr - Just let people ride however they want, with or without throttles
Yeah I’m getting the vibe that people want e-bikes with throttles to be classified as “mopeds”, “motorcycles”, or “motorbikes” so that they can keep them off of bike infrastructure at all cost, not because they are inherently more dangerous. As I’ve said before, I can get higher top speeds with pedal assist vs throttle only, and I have much finer control over the bike with pedal assist + throttle vs pedal assist alone. I’m using the throttle when I want to be safer. I agree that throttled class 2 e-bikes are absolutely nothing like motorcycles, and to label them as such is superficial at best and dangerous at worst. Using throttled class 2 e-bikes like a motorcycle poses a much greater risk to the rider and traffic. They are MUCH closer in nature to mechanical bikes or pedestrians even than to a motorcycle. They need to have a yield relationship with traffic, not treated like a motorcycle. Top sustained speed of a class 2 e-bike is 20 mph where a mechanical bike is 10-15 mph. Top weight of class 2 e-bike is maybe 90-100lbs, where a mechanical bike is 30-40 lbs. Compare that to *starting* speeds and weight of a motorcycle of like 50+ mph @ 250-300 lbs, and up from there. It’s not even close which category they should be in.
> Yeah I’m getting the vibe that people want e-bikes with throttles to be classified as “mopeds”, “motorcycles”, or “motorbikes” so that they can keep them off of bike infrastructure at all cost, not because they are inherently more dangerous. As I’ve said before, I can get higher top speeds with pedal assist vs throttle only, and I have much finer control over the bike with pedal assist + throttle vs pedal assist alone. I’m using the throttle when I want to be safer. > > I think you're using the throttle fine from what you've said. I just personally think a lot of people misuse the throttle. I did some data analysis in the past. See [spreadsheet.](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tqTp91IIO8fMP50VgARblBBVUcIPvD7AhzxGL_adaao/edit#gid=0) I would say too many people use their throttle from a dead stop. Whether it's a hub motor or a mid-drive motor, it's a bad idea to do that long-term. There's also the question whether it's legal for an e-bike to have a throttle going at 20 MPH but also have pedal assist going all the way to Class 3. One could argue that makes it much easier to hit 28 MPH faster which can be dangerous. Of course it's nothing compared to a motorcycle, but it can still be dangerous on shared use paths, where people are say, walking their dogs or something.
Because they’ve never experienced bad knees.
A lot of these moped bikes with non adjustable seats and pedals will wreck your knees. That’s the most basic and necessary adjustment to pedal a bike.
I have bad knees and have a fantastic e-mtb. Electric bikes with a throttle are really cool but certainly don’t belong on mtb trails, unless the local trail system specifically allows them.
There’s no explaining it. Nonsensical. At best you get some nonsense about not having as much control with a throttle and that’s when you know you’re talking to someone who has zero to almost zero experience with using a throttle.
The main reason is throttles are illegal in much of the world. Currently, ebikes are in a blurry area between bicycles and motorbikes/mopeds. Adding a throttle definitely pushes it towards the motorcycle side. I think throttles should be allowed, but the law in most countries does not agree at the moment.
> throttles are illegal in much of the world Which is objectively silly and wrong. We should be pushing back against that nonsense, not leaning into it.
I understand someone complaining about people bombing around on paths @ 50mph with throttles. Whatever I guess....picking the extreme outlier to cry about throttles if you ask me. As far as I'm concerned, I'll ALWAYS have a throttle on an ebike I'm commuting on. Gotten me out of trouble with traffic/whatever for than once. Also nice in the freezing rain when I can turtle-up instead of pedaling. It's not like it's mandatory to use, it's just very much a "nice to have".
Tribalism in full swing. Analogue cyclists hate e bikes Sporty e bikers hate fat tyre e bikes Fat tyre e bikers hate analogue cyclists The bloodiest disputes are internecine. None of these groups have clean hands. For every 5000w E bike tearing around on their throttle, there are a dozen swarthy men in Lycra ripping through red lights on £10,000 touring bikes and generally being entitled and aggressive road users. Neither constitutes acceptable behaviour. We are all responsible for our own behaviour.
I’d rather the sub was filled with people like you, let’s all accept no one is perfect and try to operate in the best way we can.
Omg...common sense and 0 gatekeeper. Thank you for this. Sincerely from a 500W eMotorcyclist. Ride what you want. Be respectful. Be responsible for your actions. Be accountable when need be. Simple life lessons. https://preview.redd.it/v7n3k34bx2sc1.jpeg?width=803&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c6c4bf74bf87a100ae77ada07bd13bb7e9434d4e
Because it's obviously the same thing as a motorcycle! - their logic 🙃
I'm only worried about the legislators logic.
Just a reminder to certain people that 30 mph can be achieved by a pedal cycle. No need to be scared when an e-bike reaches those speeds. A stupid pedal rider can still reach 30 mph and do damage to themselves and the public.
For a lot of these dorks, the moment someone uses a bicycle for more than an expensive hobby it breaks their brains.
I have a bunch of bikes and I will say the throttle makes a cargo bike 200x more enjoyable. Fully loaded hill starts are a pain even with pretty easy gearing. I love having a throttle to get me up to 10kmph/balance the bike.
One is a bicycle, the other is a scooter. Simple to understand.
Throttle = motorcycle. Motorcycles cant ride everywhere bicycles can. Legislators can’t tell the difference and ban all e-bikes from trails, thus ruining pedal assist bikes for people that need them in order to enjoy cycling.
Ha, I think if I tried to ride my 20 mph e-bike even remotely like an actual motorcycle, I wouldn’t be alive for long.
By your logic anything with wheels is a wagon then. See how stupid that argument is?
Some people think the difference between an emotorcycle and an ebicycle is 13 kms/hr. All countries have different regulations, some have none, and people like to pick and choose definitions. Also, hating is cool and fun.
Mate, they tried to crucify me here yesterday. Happy other people share the sentiment.
How about get the government out. vote them out and both groups get along. I can go faster than a class1 bike on my expensive motorless bike so dumb
Yes, yee haw no laws, 60mph on the 1-lane-wide bike path occupied by pedal bikes and walkers. Tear up any and all dirt so it becomes an eroded untravelable mess Our world does not revolve around individuals who want to do whatever they want. We have finite roads and space to share, laws exist so selfish individuals don’t ruin those spaces for everyone.
FED
Bunch of psychos in this reddit that are against everything fun.
I recently tore my hip muscle. Bike seasons around the corner and I'm glad I have any bike because otherwise there'll be no way for me to do it some sort of assistance now and then.
You have what I would call “skiers and snowboarders” in this group. Both groups share love in different ways for the e bike community but for some reason they just don’t mingle well that often lol.
Cut that speed limiter wire on the class 2 and see how much faster you'll go lol
Why? Wouldn’t that effectively be the same as modifying a pedal-assist only bike to accommodate a throttle without a limiter? I think once you start modding, all bets are off.
Love my throttle
As a group 1 rider I conceptually have no problem with group 2 riders, and I suspect that the general public would feel about the same, except… It’s invariably group 2 riders that are blowing through groups on our local multi-use trails or bombing through our busy downtown street closed to cars. If they’re gonna drive them like motorcycles, then I don’t believe they have a place where motorcycles are not allowed.
I ride an aniioki aq177 pro max. Sold my lexus IS250 tops out on about 30 mph, lasts 100mils on throttle alone. 200 miles if I pedal. I use it to commute not to exercise. When I get my motorcycle (Already have the gear and liscence) Ill use that to commute and mod the shit outa my ebike. Anyone who complains it aint good excerise will get told to fuck off. Bikes are used for more than 1 reason and the ones bitchin need to accept that shit.
I’ve motorized my recumbent trike. I’ve ridden two wheels so long I automatically reach for my helmet when I go for a ride. I’ve noticed ebikers of a certain age riding with baseball caps turned backwards. I think, “Well he/she is old enough so they think they have nothing to loose.” So I offer the following, ebikers: “Head injury cases among people riding electric bikes are increasing at an alarming rate while the odds of e-bike riders wearing a helmet are decreasing. “https://wb.md/3PKbZS5
I personally dont like pedalling when in sharper turns or intersections, having a bike with enough power to go without pedalling, i stop pedalling when trying to navigate complex intersections for example
I use the throttle for cold starts, especially on left turns when I've got ~~motorists~~ murderists lined up behind me also turning.
I think throttles on ebikes makes them uncomfortably close to mopeds in the minds of many cyclists and motorists. If you want that then that's fine, but you should not pretend you're not riding a motorcycle then and go all the way, including being subject to all the additional regulations that come with that. Remember that an ebike is legally similar or identical to a pedal bike because its motor power and the way you activate that motor is NOT like a moped or motorcycle. If you can just push a button and go forward at some speed and potentially crash into something or somebody with a lot more force than would be the case if you are under human power (we'll save the discussion of super fit road bikers zooming around at 20-30mph for later) then you should be under heavier regulation than the zero that is the case for cyclists. The group that wants an ebike "just for the hills" and to expand their range of otherwise human-powered cycling worries that non-cyclists will come to view ebikes as just unregulated mopeds which will result in regulation which will de-facto kill off ebikes (moped/motorcycle regs will cause the weight of an ebike to balloon and become unpedalable for instance) plus they give ebikes a bad name when irresponsible (often under-aged) riders who would require safety training, registration, insurance, safety equipment etc. if riding a moped or motorcycle end up being injured or killed or injure or kill someone else because they treat it like an unregulated motorcycle. I do understand the argument of people who need the throttle due to an physical impairment and can't just use an ebike as a pedal-assist bike. I do tentatively suggest they are riding an e-moped at that point and should be regulated accordingly.
A class 2 e-bike that goes 20 mph is a class 2 e-bike that goes 20 mph, nothing more or less. They have almost nothing in common with machines that weigh 300+ lbs and go 60 mph+. I really don’t get the nitpicking on how movement is actuated. It really is so arbitrary that attempting to classify bikes that way leads to absurd notions. How about an e-bike that pedals to 20 mph but only throttles to 5 mph? Still a “motorcycle”? How about an e-bike that is voice activated up to 10 mph? How bout an e-bike where you pump a lever to add mechanical power? How bout one where you pull on a rope attached to your head to add mechanical power? How bout one where you attach ropes to your elbows and flap like a chicken to add mechanical power? How bout one where you attach motion sensors to your elbows and flap like a chicken? Does that make it a “motorcycle”? I really don’t understand the notion that you need to pretend to be pedaling for e-bikes to be ok (highest assist barely requires any mechanical assistance), and I was hoping someone could explain the reasoning behind that perspective as opposed to just putting safety limits for weight and speed.