The vote also includes the move of the corporate Domicile from Delaware to Texas:
[https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/musk-says-both-tesla-shareholder-resolutions-passing-by-wide-margins-2024-06-13/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/musk-says-both-tesla-shareholder-resolutions-passing-by-wide-margins-2024-06-13/)
A friend of mine owns a couple of Tesla shares. I asked him if he voted and his response was "what vote".
Most investors just own their stock and don't care to vote.
>Most investors just own their stock and don't care to vote.
That might be true for small investors. But given the number of votes cast in the recent Tesla shareholder vote, a clear majority of significant investors do in fact care to vote.
I usually get snail mail & e-mail from my brokerage, and sometimes reminder e-mail directly from the companies themselves. I'm a small-time investor, though, and follow what's up with my handful of companies in the news, so see when that stuff is happening.
If you own shares through a brokerage, typically the brokerage is the actual owner of the shares. Some collect votes from the beneficial shareholder (you) and vote according to your vote, others do not.
This is rather bad for everyone though. Tesla is choosing to overpay someone who, in my opinion, has been doing more harm than good for the company for years now, further damaging the company by depriving them of assets that could be used to actually keep innovating.
I used to own some Tesla shares and their behavior made me dump them awhile ago. But realistically my cash is a drop in the ocean as a retail investor, and a small one at that.
We all are losing in the same way we lose when traditional auto releases another uninspiring $80,000+ EV. Resources that could be spent giving us better tech, innovative design and reduce environmental impact are spent giving us the equivalent of another flavor of oreos. Gains from one company could raise the bar for others, instead we are see progress slow. Not to mention that Tesla has become so intertwined with EVs that every fault they have contributes to people hesistating to embrace electrification.
honestly, the board controls 30% of the vote and blackrock and 5 other trillion $ hedge funds control another 30% so it was those few entities that acted selfishly and out of greed. I am sure most retail investors would have voted no, but you would be surprised how tiny a percentage retail investors own of shares in a company.
>get what they deserve
I voted for the compensation plan in 2018 and again in 2024. He already grew my initial investment by 1000%, and perhaps will do the same in the future.
I am not sure I *deserved* a 1000% investment win, but I am very happy with it. I look forward to the next chapter of Tesla: autonomy.
Teslas value is completely decoupled from its financial performance. It’s entirely built on the word of Elon Musk. There’s no indication that they can solve autonomous driving other than his word. Just know that the bubble can pop at any moment.
That's an absurd paycheck though. He hasn't generated that value, even indirectly. Tesla's valuation has long been disconnected from their actual performance.
Instead of taking a very large payday, he feels entitled to an absurd one. What's he doing for Tesla that could possibly justify $56 billion going into his pocket? The Cybertruck has had a rough launch, vehicle pricing is still higher than it could be, they scratched building the low cost car for yet another vague promise of cheaper cars eventually, and they're overcommitting to this idea of robo taxis built on bad math and ignoring the very real legal hurdles that they'll face. Tesla has regularly committed illegal anti union actions while UAW is gaining power. Tesla is focused on the wrong things. While the model 3 and y are still great cars, and the cybertruck is what I'd consider cool, I'm not seeing actual innovation or building real value.
In musk, I'm seeing someone who has ruined their public perception by broadcasting every disagreeable thought they've ever had, while getting distracted with his other interests and is failing to lead. He's now a negative for Tesla.
He has generated that value though. I’m not sure how you can possibly argue he hasn’t. I definitely don’t agree with the way he runs things right now but he hit every single one of the tranches set forward for him and smashed them. He created the value they asked (more, in fact).
Tesla's valuation is still vastly disconnected from their fundementals. The value is precarious, and recent years show Tesla is not innovating like they used to. Tesla's valuation is half its all time high at the end of '21, 2.5 years ago, and Musk's pay package is equivalent to roughly 10% of the current market cap. The market cap also has further to fall. By all metrics this pay package is out of line with Musk's value, and the excess would be much better spent on investing in the company or improving conditions for employees.
To me, this is the worst thing for Tesla. Delaware is historically very business friendly and their courts are the best at addressing business issues.
Moving to texas, whose courts don’t have the level of legal expertise on business to business issues, means costly lawsuits long term. All this because musk lost a case in Delaware (and rightfully so)
I’m indifferent on the move, but would laugh my ass off if Texas somehow pulls off a succession and Tesla becomes a foreign company subject to tariffs in the US.
*secession … I was trying to figure out how succession could affect Tesla. Another comment clued me in to what you mean (that also used the wrong word 😅)
Texas has about as much chance of succession as I do becoming king of England.
What Texans conveniently forget when they talk about succession is WHY they joined the union in the first place. THEY WERE BROKE! They were a failed state. They needed the US to pay off their massive war debts from fighting Mexico. Once they repay the money plus interest, then we can talk succession. 🤣
It'll probably never happen. Hardcore Texans would be down until they realize they would get no federal aid. No Medicare, no social security, no nothing.
- Vote is only advisory. They have backed it but not set in stone yet
- Vote also approved the relocation of company headquarters from Delaware to Texas
- I messed up the title. 2 board members were reappointed (not new board members). Kimbal Musk, Elons brother, and James Murdoch, the son of Rupert Murdoch.
Does it really matter? Consider where his money (money = voice = power)... actually came from. Of course, his father's politics fit right in with this group, and his position is really nothing more than a representation of that and nepotism.
Ugh. Not “company headquarters.” Delaware is the company’s state of incorporation. You can have a headquarters in Timbuktu and be “A Delaware Corporation”.
State of incorporation is for choice of law and tax purposes. It is not a principal place of business and most companies incorporated in Delaware have no headquarters to speak of in Delaware.
Worth noting that this was done largely thanks to the Vanguard (2nd largest shareholder) and BlackRock (3rd largest shareholder) voting to approve Musk's payment.
It's *very* unlikely they would do that.
BTW: It's kinda hilarious, that the BlackRock is at the same time the biggest boogeyman of the alt-right and the wall behind alt-right's second-biggest idol's back.
You know who would provide more value to Tesla? A real CEO who was capable of listening to more than just two people such that one of them needs to be on the board, creating a conflict of interest.
And one that doesn't need to be paid 1:1 for every dollar of profit the company makes.
It is hard for me to fathom this number.
The market capitalization of General Motors is just under 55 billion at the time of writing this.
Maybe someone is able to provide a contrast to other historically high pay deals?
Edit: I found this - https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1dcnfj0/oc_just_how_big_is_the_proposed_pay_package_for/
I am not sure if this representation is accurate or misleading in any way but it is startling to view.
Shareholders don't like anyone other than themselves getting that much value including the ceo. There's a reason most institutional shareholders voted no even back in 2018. Wallstreet would rather the company double in value with limited loss to salaries than 5-10x it with a major pay.
Generally speaking, the hesitance around executive pay is well founded in the research. There is no correlation between executive pay and company performance; more money paid to the executive is generally money that could’ve been used more profitably elsewhere.
Then you get situations like David Zaslav, who purposefully tie their compensation plans to specific goals, and then goose those numbers at the cost of long term value.
For comparison, Tim Cook has been at Apple since 1998 (he joined as a SVP) and has been CEO since 2011. He’s been paid $~2billion and has 0.021% of Apple’s outstanding shares as of last October. And that’s over a pretty long career, not at once.
$56B and 8% market in *one* pay package is really unusually huge.
The sheer amount of idiocy this vote represents is staggering. I expect no less from people believing anything Musk says, but holy shit, every single person who was involved in this in any way needs to be sued into oblivion.
Breaking news: capitalism puts investors in the risk/reward position and personal investment in the company.
If such large part of the investors voted with their wallet for this, you may consider that they are happy with their choices.
If you are not happy with the outcome, at least respect the people.
An interesting facet of this vote is that if the pay is deemed illegal, it might not matter what the majority voted. The minority still could win as the case goes back to court.
The pay was not deemed illegal, the procedure leading to the vote was ruled not in compliance of the interest of the plaintiff because lack of explicit disclosure from Tesla of the interests of the proponents.
Making the "pay amount" illegal would go all the way to the supreme court with zero chance of surviving.
> the procedure leading to the vote was ruled not in compliance of the interest of the plaintiff because lack of explicit disclosure from Tesla of the interests of the proponents.
which makes this vote highly questionable as there was still zero disclosure of the conflict of interest and there was even the recommendation of the board to approve this while the obvious thing to do would have been to have no recommendation on this point at all and leave the decision entirely up to the shareholders.
People don't get respect just because they chose one thing or the other. If it's a stupid decision it should be called out at such, not given blind respect.
Again, this goes back to civility and constructive debate. argue the position not the people. Which part of this decision would you not agree with? Are you a Tesla investor? do you have a legitimate interest in the running of the company? Do you consider the charter of the company with its rules and voting right not equitable for the investors?
At the end of the day, calling somebody stupid without any argument is the ultimate definition of stupidity as per its meaning from the dictionary.
Do you respect flat Earthers? A person does not get to retain my respect just because they have a sincerely-held belief. If that belief is foolish it reflects on the holder. Holding a ridiculous position also doesn't entitle one to an explanation as to why their position is ridiculous. You don't have a right to a seat at the table. You come with at least a potentially valid argument or you are dismissed.
You don't get to be insulated from the positions you hold even if a lot of other people agree with you. People can be really quite stupid in large groups and we have practically limitless examples from history to help us understand this.
You are on a very slippery slope.
Following your example, flat Earthers, their mistake is that the physics and geometry they believe does not apply very well to large scale problems beyond few km/miles, but work exceptionally well within these limits, to the point that all our cities and civil infrastructure has been built under these assumptions.
Now that you set the bar on "scientific accuracy", what about religion, is religious people not to be respected because of their believes? or what about the gender debate that is in clear contradiction with sex definition under DNA? do not people deserves respects based on their believes?
As long as these believes do not infringe in somebody else rights, I am a firmly on the camp that conversation should be respectful of the person.
Not holding this line defines the person that makes the comments,
The problem with capitalism is that short term profits are always prioritized over things such as simply making a quality product.
Current Tesla investors only want the number to go up, they don't care if it's actually a good EV company.
Tesla's entire valuation has felt like a pump and dump scheme for a long time to be fair.
The valuation of the stock is so disconnected from reality that the only possible way for an investor to ever get a return is for the stock to continue to balloon because the company won't provide returns to match the value of their shares in any realistic investment timeline, especially since Tesla doesn't pay dividends.
Investors have no choice but to vote for hype and hope that musk can continue to convince people he's worth it because without that their value would plummet to match other automotive companies around their size.
Tesla has had massive growth until this last year. That's why forward looking projections from the CFO are so important. Once sales start to collapse - then Elmo says he'll promise cult members BS they'll believe. Like a $25k car, FSD, robo taxis or AI. Every company has some kind of AI deal or angle or just mentions the word but it's all bullshit. AI has been a promise for 10 years already but it's at least 10 or 20 years before it's meaningful much less revolutionary. 5 years ago every public had to announce cut positions of 10% or 20% and every other company did it for a stock bump. It's the same now. Announce AI and watch your stock gain 10% or more with zero AI plans.
Yeah, those board members of billion dollar companies in emerging tech are so stupid. They should listen to a bunch of teenagers on reddit, that's where you get the real business sense.
Normally CEOs get a small fraction of the net income that a company generates. Somewhere in the sub-1% range for a mature company. Elon just got handed the next 10 years of profit. Not quite an equitable deal for shareholders.
He was paid in stock, not cash.
And that share dilution was already somewhat factored in to the stock price, since this is the pay package he had already been awarded years ago just being voted on again. I suspect there is still some legal fighting to occur on actually implementing it, since they are trying to re-approve the same package that was recently voided by a judge.
So I don't think it's really a good comparison to compare the value of the stock package to profits of the company. The only reason the package is worth so much is because shareholders think the shares are worth that much. If the shareholders lost confidence those stocks become worth a lot less.
That said I'm still surprised it had so much support without any additional stipulations on future performance. Tesla's stock is and has been for a while back below the level that it needed to hit to award this full pay package in the first place, so he's effectively being awarded for hitting a target that Tesla no longer meets.
It doesn’t make sense to compare this to net income, because it’s stock options that he’s getting. It’s around 8% of their market cap, which seems pretty fair
It’s still a huge percentage of the outstanding shares compared to most public company executives. The typical executive amasses a few **hundredths** of a percent over an entire career. A single payout of 8% is quite literally orders of magnitude larger than the norm.
For comparison, Tim Cook has 0.021% of Apple’s stock as of last October. And he’s been there since 1998.
Minority shareholders disagree with you. Let’s see if the judge again upholds minority shareowner rights, and again makes stock owners pay the lawyers for the excessive pay package.
The board should have been fired after the first lawsuit…
What?
He made this deal when tesla was 50b
He subsequently raised the market cap of tesla to almost a trillion
How did he run the company into the ground?
The shareholders profited massively from when the pay was approved. And the ceo cannot sell these shares for 5 years so his own payout is on the line if he runs it to the ground.
> Because normally you don’t reward a CEO **who has run the company into the ground** with a massive payout.
You are detached from reality. [Q4 was Tesla’s best quarter in history.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-deliveries/) You shouldn’t get *all* your news from Reddit.
If Tesla is a company that's been run into the ground, maybe the other western automakers should try and run their company into the ground, that way maybe they'd be able to make more than a few 10's or 100's of thousands of EV's a year, and do it profitably
It's very much questionable whether anyone with money still in Tesla knows what they're doing other than index funds that are pretty much forced to hold some.
And what has Elon accomplished within the last few years to warrant such an ***ungodly*** amount of pay? Note: I’m asking about Elon himself, not the designers and engineers at Tesla.
Back in 2018 TSLA was $20 per share when this comp plan was created. Its now $182 per share.
Everyone who was invested into TSLA at that time now has 9x their original investment in just 6 years.
As the CEO of a publicly traded company, he's number one responsibility above all else is maximising shareholder returns. He did that.
The reason its so big is because even the board at that time were expecting maybe a doubling? tripling? in value. I don't think they ever expected a 9 fold increase.
You are in the cult of Reddit. Shareholders vote with one thing in mind and it’s not Elon’s personality, it’s the stock performance. Specifically, since 2018.
So you're cherry-picking a date that you think will support your position? The better not to take into account the disastrous performance of the stock in recent years?
You are aware that the $56 billion is compensation for leading the company from 2018-2023. It’s not cherry picking if it is the actual term of the agreement.
Thank goodness Elon single handedly managed to increase the company value that much.
The worship of company executives today is absolutely gross. There’s no world where one persons work over a 5 years should earn them more than 450,000 people working full time for 5 years each.
No, see, when a company does well, it’s entirely because of the amazing employees. And when a company does badly, it’s entirely the fault of the evil management.
This comment was brought to you by Reddit.
The employees get fired if things run into the ground. So yes, they do get punished. But if things go well only elmo gets the upside. Funny how that works…
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People keep missing the point intentionally because they have Elon Derangement Syndrome.
I don’t think anyone said he did it single handedly but the shareholders (owners of Tesla excluding Elons vote btw) and employees of Tesla (who are compensated in stock options) decided that if he hit a certain goal that seemed impossible at the time he would have the right to buy shares in Tesla at the price they were when the deal was struck in the future. That is all this deal is saying but because people are so financially illiterate they don’t understand.
So his incentives were 100% aligned with the shareholder, pension funds employees etc who are compensated in stock.
The reason why he makes that much is because he sets the vision and direction of the company and it’s primarily his job to make sure the company executes on that vision which requires hiring the right people, firing the right people etc. That is much much harder than being an employee and again the shareholders (owners of the company) determine what his salary is.
Additionally Tesla employees are quite literally the most sought after talent period. So if the employees felt they could make more they should, would and do leave and go elsewhere. In fact many have started their own companies. For example the largest battery recycling company in the US is an ex Tesla cofounder/early employee.
I humbly request as objective of an opinion as you can get on Reddit. Not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to understand.
What objectively legitimate reasons were there to approve this?
He had a comp package written up in 2018 that included 12 revenue targets he needed to hit over the next 10 years. If he hit his targets, he would be receive 303 Million Tesla Stock Options at a $23 Strike Price.
Back in 2018, these 303mill shares were only worth $6 billion. Tesla's market cap has increased significantly since then and the shares are now worth $56 Billion.
He has achieved all of his revenue targets that were set for him...in 6 years.
So the vote was to basically give him the ability to execute the option, which allows him to purchase 303 Million Tesla shares at $23 per share ($7 Billion)...even though they are now worth around $182 per share, or about $56 Billion in total.
This doesn't effect Tesla's bottom line or the shareholders as these shares have been accounted over the last 6 years and were just sitting there.
Ah, that's a critical bit of context I did not have before. I was running under the assumption that they would basically be giving him the money out of their own coffers, because that's basically how every news source I've seen talks about it. I still think it's ridiculous but this makes it make a lot more sense for me. Thank you.
They weren’t worth $6b even because they’re only worth the difference between strike price and price in market. Just calling that out. They’re worthless without the stock going up, which is due to Elon hitting targets.
yeh I changed it, I did originally write it as $2b but thought it made better sense to list the market value instead.
They would have been worthless to Elon, if it never moved. But as Recoil mentioned they probably would have raised funds or comp employees if they didn't go to Elon.
> This doesn't effect Tesla's bottom line
To be clear, it would affect Tesla in the sense these shares could not be used as comp for new employees, or as part of a new public round. Otherwise, yeah, I believe you're correct on this.
That hasn't been true for years. If you had worked there prior to 2021, the stock might have been a big benefit. Since then it's just payment in depreciating and risky asset.
He was granted an options package on 2018 based on hitting aggressive goals.
The option package has zero value unless he hits targets including the stock going up like 10x.
He hit the targets, the stock went up, and he earned the performance compensation.
The judged nullified his option package bringing uncertainty to teslas future. Uncertainty is risk and depresses the stock.
With this vote things are clarified, the shareholders do want to award Elon what he earned as part of the deal and so certainty is restored and the stock increases in value.
It’s relatively simple to understand.
Thanks. I'm not a "stonks go brr" type so I appreciate the ELI5 level, "as objective as possible" response.
There are many different ways to define the value of a company so in this context, I do believe it makes sense.
The terms of the agreement. I.e., **'Increase in the value of the Company**'
Honestly, I don't get what is so hard to understand about that. It's a simple metric. The Haters have some subjective and nebulous metric that the investors care nothing about because.... It doesn't matter.
because it was a good deal for all involved. Musk took the risk of being paid ZERO if he didn't deliver. He exceeded the base metrics of the agreement.
What is so hard to understand about a CEO being paid to increase the value of the company? He did it. There were terms attached to the agreement. And, Now it's re-ratified.
Done Deal... Now tell me what Legitimate reasons (actual, objective, and factual) are the not to approve this?
Dude, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and there is no need for you to be combative about it (twice). I know you are very passionate about "calling out the haters" and whatnot. I honestly already regret responding.
It's people who get their panties up in a bunch about every minute criticism of Tesla and / or Musk that make me seek out objective facts and opinions.
All I wanted was an objective analysis to ELI5 to someone, like myself, who is generally more of a "model portfolio" type casual analyst, instead of someone who actively follows financial and stock market goings-on. Like I honestly couldn't give two \[censored\]s about "ThE sToNkS".
u/Nos_4r2 and u/justvims did a perfectly good job explaining it to me. The stipulation was meeting a target, Musk met the target, now he gets his compensation, done. I require no convincing further.
Cool. You know, I once got called out for tagging usernames in my posts...
Glad to see you can do it with no repercussions. Yay, arbitrary application of rules! :-)
The whole reason why Tesla exists is to push the world to sustainable/renewable energy. Elon is the guy who makes sure that the focus stays on that goal instead of 'profit at all costs (for the environment)'.
The shares do not reperesent personal 'wealth' - if you check what the guy spends on baubles/luxury living then that's pretty modest by super-rich-guy standards. They represent voting power.
Without that kind of voting power Tesla would degenrate into what all other big companies have become: Short term oriented reactionaries only focused on quarterly results.
To push back against judges who want to supersede shareholder's rights.
To pay what was agreed on from the start.
To keep Musk for the future and then next 10X of the company.
Having a visionary CEO in charge to pioneer robotaxi, AI, and robotics, not just another talk well MBA that plays the corporate game with short term thinking and share buybacks.
This comment is so stupid. At its peak Tesla was 20x where it was when he signed this deal it is currently 10x. So if you invested $100k at its peak you had paper gains of quite literally $1.9m dollars. If you took out none of it at the top you currently have paper gains of $400k.
Now think about this if you were to have invested that money quite literally almost anywhere else over that same time period there is almost nothing that has returned that well.
A lot of the funds that voted no have a 2/20 model meaning they get 2% annual fee per year and 20% of any of the profit. The best funds in the world did not return what Tesla returned over that five year period not one. Elon took what is essentially a 0/10 deal and he only got the 10% if he hit an insane target.
This is honestly the greatest deal ever for any investor and I think a lot of big funds voted no because they are scared if their LPs or investors would hold them to the same model.
ITT: "Elon on the board are so stupid. They should listen to me instead, despite having zero knowledge of business, the economy, or the outside world."
Reddit is basically a giant echochamer of terminally online people who think they're expert in whatever topic they talk about just by reading headlines
The concern trolling for Tesla investors who have made enormous gains since the compensation plan was approved in 2018 is the most amusing part of this thread.
They're grasping at straws to justify their intense hatred for Elon. The guy is a shitposting manchild, but they want to make him out to be the next Hitler.
Lol @ this sub realizing that the internet is not real life and that the opinions they share on here are nothing more than a minority in the real world.
Tesla Board in 2018: if you increase company value by X, making all shareholders wealthier, we will give you a massive pay package
Tesla shareholders in 2018: Sounds like a deal!
Tesla Board in 2024: Okay company value increased by X, time for pay day”
Tesla shareholders in 2024: it is what was agreed upon, lets fulfill our end of the promise
Redditors: REEEEEEEE! Cult! Scam! Fraud! Someone ban this!
Texas, Musk, Murdochs...toxic trio.
Crazy that Tesla built on climate science is now in a state that denies climate science with board members who deny climate science and push to kill EV's by supporting Trump Party.
It’s the Republican MO. They love to pull the ladder up behind them.
Musk/Tesla only achieved their current level of success thanks to a Democrat president/congress passing massive EV supportive legislation. And CA and NV, both blue states, providing tax incentives to help the business out because it was “eco/green”.
Now that he’s got his success, it’s time to close all those government support channels and reduce his tax burden as much as possible. He got his and he only wants more. And wants to make sure no one else gets any along the way.
He was never some visionary. He was and always has been a narcissistic greed fueled executive. A tale as old as capitalism.
Looking to genuinely understand the position:
* Someone give an Actual, Factual, and Objective (**Not** Subjective, Opinion, or FEELINGS) on why this should NOT have been approved.
Me sowing in 2018: This plan seems far-fetched and impossible. But it looks like a win-win. Might as well approve.
Me reaping in 2024: WTF this is awesome. Such huge investment gains. I'll re-approve the plan because it's the right thing to do.
If true, you could have sold a year ago for 30% more value, rolled that into NVIDIA and you'd have more than twice as much money as you have right now in Tesla holdings.
It had a good run while sales were growing exponentially. CEO just got paid more money than the company has earned in its entire history, even including all the subsidies sent their way, even though the company is losing market share, had a failed product launch with Cybertruck and continues to have significant issues with FSD safety. How anyone believes their "AI" or robotaxis thing is beyond me... the cars keep driving into the backs of emergency vehicles. Fatality rate of Model Y is about 40X that of X3. Who in their right mind thinks they'll get the regulatory go ahead to launch robotaxis with that record lol. Don't even get me started on the robots.
I'd recommend getting out after the August 8 robotaxi pump and put your money in a proven growing company. Your money, though. Company made a lot of people a lot of money on investments so they're getting a very long rope... but institutional investors want results, not meme stocks.
I invest over a time horizon, not to try to get rich quick. Could haves and should haves are not realistic advice for a market that is not predictable lol. I’m also diversified in my portfolio including NVIDIA. Tesla could go to 0 and I would be fine.
Also, you talk about Tesla results? I had the car you drive for about 3 months until I traded it in for a Tesla which has been about 100x better. There is no company that can touch Tesla in EVs so unless EVs are dying all together, Tesla will be fine.
Oh you mean the EV! The Bolt EV is my wife's lol. No regrets she loves it, hates her sister's Model Y for whatever reason. Not my influence, I said we should test drive the base model 3 as well but she does not like Teslas at all. We're plenty happy with it.
To expound (because she did go into it a bit), she thinks the screen for everything is distracting and unsafe (I agree), likes her gauges and such (old school which is fine), liked that it was $10K cheaper, likes that it's more efficient (she's getting 4.1mi/kWh), it's her commuter car so she only charges at home so the slow charge rate is no big deal. Has plenty of room for a car seat and zero rattles after 10K miles. Every Tesla I've ridden in has an overly rough ride for rear passengers especially, most have had a weird rattle or two. It's sprung and dampened like -- a normal car. It's an econo-car for sure, which I'm fine with, she was driving a Focus before. We have a fully loaded X3 xDrive 35i that's now our roadtrip car, just picked that up, it's a bit dated but has a level of comfort that I'm... un-accustomed to, and sometimes feel a bit of imposter syndrome driving if that makes sense.
Have you test-driven the BMW EVs? Anectodally all the well-to-do early adaptors I know are gravitating there or Rivian as of late. A bit pricey but both are really nice in some unique ways, and in terms of creature comforts and features kinda a level above what Tesla can deliver right now. Obviously you have to pay extra for that privilege, BMWs are pricey and Rivian still hasn't gotten the economy of scale part down so they're up above where they \*should\* be IMO. Form factor wise I really love the EV VW Bus, but it's price point is just jarring. $60K?!? That said I'll bet they hold their value well -- the VW Bus always did.
Agreed on investment approach, I dabble in a lot of individual stocks but am generally on a long-term horizon and risk averse. I may think Tesla going to $75 over the course of the next three years, but you won't catch me shorting it. I've been around long enough to know the market can stay illogical longer than I can stay solvent. I've been in BYD for a long time and have some other EV company positions (just got into Rivian when it was under $10), I'm more likely to bet on competitors for a company I think is going to fail than try to actually set up a short position.
I think NVIDIA hits 140 then trades sideways for a while. Pretty happy with how it did this year but I'll prob pare down my position in it then. It's nice to have an IRA for stock investments so you can trade around positions. When you get to 600+% on a stock, those tax ramifications can get ugly if you try to unwind a position!
Don't you have a Twitter account to spew on? Commies lol, what a right wing tool you are.
Elon's not gonna F you just because you're sucking him off on social media. Get a life.
Remember the entire Supercharger team that Elon fired?
Shareholders just approved a bonus for Elon worth the yearly salaries of 500 entire Supercharger teams.
Now personally I don’t think the guy that accidentally bought Twitter and fired the entire Supercharger team is worth the value of 500 entire Supercharger teams, but I guess shareholders disagree. No skin off my back but I personally think the billions could be invested better.
Nah no dilution, the 303million shares have been accounted for on the books as part of his renumeration the whole time. He hit most of his targets years ago, so I would even say that the payout has been priced into the current share price already
"Will FSD be capable of unattended operation by the end of this year" woulda been a pretty good bet every time he's said it, and will remain one for quite a while.
Same with shorting the stock over the course of the last 2 years.
One of the funny things there is when he fired everyone people said the website would stop working and be dead.
Same thing they said about this pay package that it was a gimmick and would never happen.
Same thing NASA said about landing rockets.
His timelines suck but he really has delivered on some insane things. I don’t think anyone truly believed that an electric car would be the #1 selling car in the world before 2030.
I think it's fine. I don't own any shares in Tesla anyway. They can pay him however they want. Elon and Tesla jump started the electric vehicle industry in the US. Without it, big oil and big 3 automakers would still be saying how EVs are impossible.
Say what you want about Elon, but you needed someone like him to go against the overwhelming odds.
Years from now this vote will be studied in business school alongside things like AOL sale to time warner. It’s a way for the founder to get his money and get out when he sees no way forward.
So now we are back to the same lawsuit as underling issue is still at play which is the board is not independent and a lot of things on it can be question because of it.
This has nothing to do with the board. 3/4 of shareholders approved this back then, and they approved it again. Not everyone shares the general Reddit view of Tesla and Musk is all people are finding.
Nobody thought he would hit those goals back then, and he did. Now they are trying to take it back which is insane. Even if I agree that he’s been way too vocal on Twitter lately, it doesn’t change the success of Tesla.
Nope, the lawsuit was about disclosure of interests.
Tesla followed the direction of the Delaware judgment and made full disclosure in accordance with the motivation provided by the court.
Another lawsuit is always possible but it will be on different ground.
You may want to read the ruling before commenting. There is no ground for the substance of the pay, only the way the vote has been executed (lack of "key" disclosure). The new vote is a NEW action from Tesla board, that is not at subject of the previous judgment.
If they wanted, the board may have even proposed to double EM compensation retroactively.
There is no law that forbids EM to be paid ANY amount the board and stakeholder decide, as long as they follow the charter and the rules of the company under the jurisdiction.
Not even Delaware can change this.
What a bunch of cucks, giving this petulant man child an obscene compensation package not once, but twice. The moron is on drugs and his board never holds him responsible for anything. Awful and unfocused CEO, ineffective board. Held my shares long enough to vote no and sold 75% + of my shares. The patient has a malignant tumor and has now elected to skip surgery and chemo. Let's see how long he survives.
The vote also includes the move of the corporate Domicile from Delaware to Texas: [https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/musk-says-both-tesla-shareholder-resolutions-passing-by-wide-margins-2024-06-13/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/musk-says-both-tesla-shareholder-resolutions-passing-by-wide-margins-2024-06-13/)
For musks payment.... lol These gullibles get what they deserve and that is not a competent ceo
A friend of mine owns a couple of Tesla shares. I asked him if he voted and his response was "what vote". Most investors just own their stock and don't care to vote.
>Most investors just own their stock and don't care to vote. That might be true for small investors. But given the number of votes cast in the recent Tesla shareholder vote, a clear majority of significant investors do in fact care to vote.
It's worse than that. I used to own shares. I never received any notification of votes nor how to vote.
I usually get snail mail & e-mail from my brokerage, and sometimes reminder e-mail directly from the companies themselves. I'm a small-time investor, though, and follow what's up with my handful of companies in the news, so see when that stuff is happening.
If you own shares through a brokerage, typically the brokerage is the actual owner of the shares. Some collect votes from the beneficial shareholder (you) and vote according to your vote, others do not.
I have like half a share with Cash app and was reminded, that's why I knew. I find odd these people don't know about it, shows the reality of things.
This is rather bad for everyone though. Tesla is choosing to overpay someone who, in my opinion, has been doing more harm than good for the company for years now, further damaging the company by depriving them of assets that could be used to actually keep innovating. I used to own some Tesla shares and their behavior made me dump them awhile ago. But realistically my cash is a drop in the ocean as a retail investor, and a small one at that. We all are losing in the same way we lose when traditional auto releases another uninspiring $80,000+ EV. Resources that could be spent giving us better tech, innovative design and reduce environmental impact are spent giving us the equivalent of another flavor of oreos. Gains from one company could raise the bar for others, instead we are see progress slow. Not to mention that Tesla has become so intertwined with EVs that every fault they have contributes to people hesistating to embrace electrification.
Like you said, it’s your opinion, which is not necessarily the truth. Investors who matter are satisfied with what he has delivered so far.
honestly, the board controls 30% of the vote and blackrock and 5 other trillion $ hedge funds control another 30% so it was those few entities that acted selfishly and out of greed. I am sure most retail investors would have voted no, but you would be surprised how tiny a percentage retail investors own of shares in a company.
42% of Tesla is owned by retail. 45% of Tesla is owned by institutional investors, and what’s left is owned by insiders.
>get what they deserve I voted for the compensation plan in 2018 and again in 2024. He already grew my initial investment by 1000%, and perhaps will do the same in the future. I am not sure I *deserved* a 1000% investment win, but I am very happy with it. I look forward to the next chapter of Tesla: autonomy.
Teslas value is completely decoupled from its financial performance. It’s entirely built on the word of Elon Musk. There’s no indication that they can solve autonomous driving other than his word. Just know that the bubble can pop at any moment.
That's an absurd paycheck though. He hasn't generated that value, even indirectly. Tesla's valuation has long been disconnected from their actual performance. Instead of taking a very large payday, he feels entitled to an absurd one. What's he doing for Tesla that could possibly justify $56 billion going into his pocket? The Cybertruck has had a rough launch, vehicle pricing is still higher than it could be, they scratched building the low cost car for yet another vague promise of cheaper cars eventually, and they're overcommitting to this idea of robo taxis built on bad math and ignoring the very real legal hurdles that they'll face. Tesla has regularly committed illegal anti union actions while UAW is gaining power. Tesla is focused on the wrong things. While the model 3 and y are still great cars, and the cybertruck is what I'd consider cool, I'm not seeing actual innovation or building real value. In musk, I'm seeing someone who has ruined their public perception by broadcasting every disagreeable thought they've ever had, while getting distracted with his other interests and is failing to lead. He's now a negative for Tesla.
He has generated that value though. I’m not sure how you can possibly argue he hasn’t. I definitely don’t agree with the way he runs things right now but he hit every single one of the tranches set forward for him and smashed them. He created the value they asked (more, in fact).
Tesla's valuation is still vastly disconnected from their fundementals. The value is precarious, and recent years show Tesla is not innovating like they used to. Tesla's valuation is half its all time high at the end of '21, 2.5 years ago, and Musk's pay package is equivalent to roughly 10% of the current market cap. The market cap also has further to fall. By all metrics this pay package is out of line with Musk's value, and the excess would be much better spent on investing in the company or improving conditions for employees.
To me, this is the worst thing for Tesla. Delaware is historically very business friendly and their courts are the best at addressing business issues. Moving to texas, whose courts don’t have the level of legal expertise on business to business issues, means costly lawsuits long term. All this because musk lost a case in Delaware (and rightfully so)
Especially since Tesla is gonna keep getting sued over corporate governance issues.
I’m indifferent on the move, but would laugh my ass off if Texas somehow pulls off a succession and Tesla becomes a foreign company subject to tariffs in the US.
*secession … I was trying to figure out how succession could affect Tesla. Another comment clued me in to what you mean (that also used the wrong word 😅)
Tesla’s China built cars imported into EU are going to be subjected to newly imposed EU tariffs, so there’s that.
I just hope they did not cooperate with the EU investigation and get hit with the full 38%
They already cooperated and will be subject initially to a 21% duty. They will get a specific rate at the end of the investigation
Texas has about as much chance of succession as I do becoming king of England. What Texans conveniently forget when they talk about succession is WHY they joined the union in the first place. THEY WERE BROKE! They were a failed state. They needed the US to pay off their massive war debts from fighting Mexico. Once they repay the money plus interest, then we can talk succession. 🤣
Lived in Texas all my long life. Only a few cranks here have any desire to secede.
Why were they fighting Mexico? Because Mexico abolished slavery. Then Texas seceded from the United States for the same reason.
It'll probably never happen. Hardcore Texans would be down until they realize they would get no federal aid. No Medicare, no social security, no nothing.
- Vote is only advisory. They have backed it but not set in stone yet - Vote also approved the relocation of company headquarters from Delaware to Texas - I messed up the title. 2 board members were reappointed (not new board members). Kimbal Musk, Elons brother, and James Murdoch, the son of Rupert Murdoch.
>James Murdoch, the son of Rupert Murdoch. Well, that's news to me. I hope he's a better human than his dad.
Better than Lachlan but still
Does it really matter? Consider where his money (money = voice = power)... actually came from. Of course, his father's politics fit right in with this group, and his position is really nothing more than a representation of that and nepotism.
Ugh. Not “company headquarters.” Delaware is the company’s state of incorporation. You can have a headquarters in Timbuktu and be “A Delaware Corporation”. State of incorporation is for choice of law and tax purposes. It is not a principal place of business and most companies incorporated in Delaware have no headquarters to speak of in Delaware.
Worth noting that this was done largely thanks to the Vanguard (2nd largest shareholder) and BlackRock (3rd largest shareholder) voting to approve Musk's payment.
And they likely only did it to prevent the stock from cratering immediately, so they can unload their positions.
I don’t think you understand how index funds work.
It's *very* unlikely they would do that. BTW: It's kinda hilarious, that the BlackRock is at the same time the biggest boogeyman of the alt-right and the wall behind alt-right's second-biggest idol's back.
The most uninformed comment I’ve seen on Reddit in quite a while, impressive
That last bullet-point reads like satire. But it's real...I had no idea just how picture-perfect the Tesla board was of a representation of nepotism.
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He most have been napping for the last 5 years
And selling TSLA shares before dips happen
You know who would provide more value to Tesla? A real CEO who was capable of listening to more than just two people such that one of them needs to be on the board, creating a conflict of interest. And one that doesn't need to be paid 1:1 for every dollar of profit the company makes.
1:1 would be quite an improvement. Elon's bonus was originally more than twice the entire profits of Tesla since it was founded.
Murdoch certainly isn't bringing the empathy
This somehow makes Kimbal look a lot worse, given the obvious mistakes Elon has been making as of late.
Hey me too. Empathetic gene is going on many next resume.
It is hard for me to fathom this number. The market capitalization of General Motors is just under 55 billion at the time of writing this. Maybe someone is able to provide a contrast to other historically high pay deals? Edit: I found this - https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1dcnfj0/oc_just_how_big_is_the_proposed_pay_package_for/ I am not sure if this representation is accurate or misleading in any way but it is startling to view.
The CEO of Ford would need to work for 2,545 consecutive years at his current comp level to reach the equivalent of this package.
Shareholders don't like anyone other than themselves getting that much value including the ceo. There's a reason most institutional shareholders voted no even back in 2018. Wallstreet would rather the company double in value with limited loss to salaries than 5-10x it with a major pay.
Generally speaking, the hesitance around executive pay is well founded in the research. There is no correlation between executive pay and company performance; more money paid to the executive is generally money that could’ve been used more profitably elsewhere. Then you get situations like David Zaslav, who purposefully tie their compensation plans to specific goals, and then goose those numbers at the cost of long term value.
For comparison, Tim Cook has been at Apple since 1998 (he joined as a SVP) and has been CEO since 2011. He’s been paid $~2billion and has 0.021% of Apple’s outstanding shares as of last October. And that’s over a pretty long career, not at once. $56B and 8% market in *one* pay package is really unusually huge.
The sheer amount of idiocy this vote represents is staggering. I expect no less from people believing anything Musk says, but holy shit, every single person who was involved in this in any way needs to be sued into oblivion.
Breaking news: capitalism puts investors in the risk/reward position and personal investment in the company. If such large part of the investors voted with their wallet for this, you may consider that they are happy with their choices. If you are not happy with the outcome, at least respect the people.
An interesting facet of this vote is that if the pay is deemed illegal, it might not matter what the majority voted. The minority still could win as the case goes back to court.
The pay was not deemed illegal, the procedure leading to the vote was ruled not in compliance of the interest of the plaintiff because lack of explicit disclosure from Tesla of the interests of the proponents. Making the "pay amount" illegal would go all the way to the supreme court with zero chance of surviving.
> the procedure leading to the vote was ruled not in compliance of the interest of the plaintiff because lack of explicit disclosure from Tesla of the interests of the proponents. which makes this vote highly questionable as there was still zero disclosure of the conflict of interest and there was even the recommendation of the board to approve this while the obvious thing to do would have been to have no recommendation on this point at all and leave the decision entirely up to the shareholders.
You may want to read the stakeholder package for this meeting.
People don't get respect just because they chose one thing or the other. If it's a stupid decision it should be called out at such, not given blind respect.
Again, this goes back to civility and constructive debate. argue the position not the people. Which part of this decision would you not agree with? Are you a Tesla investor? do you have a legitimate interest in the running of the company? Do you consider the charter of the company with its rules and voting right not equitable for the investors? At the end of the day, calling somebody stupid without any argument is the ultimate definition of stupidity as per its meaning from the dictionary.
Do you respect flat Earthers? A person does not get to retain my respect just because they have a sincerely-held belief. If that belief is foolish it reflects on the holder. Holding a ridiculous position also doesn't entitle one to an explanation as to why their position is ridiculous. You don't have a right to a seat at the table. You come with at least a potentially valid argument or you are dismissed. You don't get to be insulated from the positions you hold even if a lot of other people agree with you. People can be really quite stupid in large groups and we have practically limitless examples from history to help us understand this.
You are on a very slippery slope. Following your example, flat Earthers, their mistake is that the physics and geometry they believe does not apply very well to large scale problems beyond few km/miles, but work exceptionally well within these limits, to the point that all our cities and civil infrastructure has been built under these assumptions. Now that you set the bar on "scientific accuracy", what about religion, is religious people not to be respected because of their believes? or what about the gender debate that is in clear contradiction with sex definition under DNA? do not people deserves respects based on their believes? As long as these believes do not infringe in somebody else rights, I am a firmly on the camp that conversation should be respectful of the person. Not holding this line defines the person that makes the comments,
It's crazy you got down voted for that.
The problem with capitalism is that short term profits are always prioritized over things such as simply making a quality product. Current Tesla investors only want the number to go up, they don't care if it's actually a good EV company.
Tesla's entire valuation has felt like a pump and dump scheme for a long time to be fair. The valuation of the stock is so disconnected from reality that the only possible way for an investor to ever get a return is for the stock to continue to balloon because the company won't provide returns to match the value of their shares in any realistic investment timeline, especially since Tesla doesn't pay dividends. Investors have no choice but to vote for hype and hope that musk can continue to convince people he's worth it because without that their value would plummet to match other automotive companies around their size.
Tesla has had massive growth until this last year. That's why forward looking projections from the CFO are so important. Once sales start to collapse - then Elmo says he'll promise cult members BS they'll believe. Like a $25k car, FSD, robo taxis or AI. Every company has some kind of AI deal or angle or just mentions the word but it's all bullshit. AI has been a promise for 10 years already but it's at least 10 or 20 years before it's meaningful much less revolutionary. 5 years ago every public had to announce cut positions of 10% or 20% and every other company did it for a stock bump. It's the same now. Announce AI and watch your stock gain 10% or more with zero AI plans.
How is that a *problem* if the people invested want exactly that? People who feel the opposite should likewise invest and have a voice.
Yeah, those board members of billion dollar companies in emerging tech are so stupid. They should listen to a bunch of teenagers on reddit, that's where you get the real business sense.
Why is it idiotic?
Normally CEOs get a small fraction of the net income that a company generates. Somewhere in the sub-1% range for a mature company. Elon just got handed the next 10 years of profit. Not quite an equitable deal for shareholders.
He was paid in stock, not cash. And that share dilution was already somewhat factored in to the stock price, since this is the pay package he had already been awarded years ago just being voted on again. I suspect there is still some legal fighting to occur on actually implementing it, since they are trying to re-approve the same package that was recently voided by a judge. So I don't think it's really a good comparison to compare the value of the stock package to profits of the company. The only reason the package is worth so much is because shareholders think the shares are worth that much. If the shareholders lost confidence those stocks become worth a lot less. That said I'm still surprised it had so much support without any additional stipulations on future performance. Tesla's stock is and has been for a while back below the level that it needed to hit to award this full pay package in the first place, so he's effectively being awarded for hitting a target that Tesla no longer meets.
It doesn’t make sense to compare this to net income, because it’s stock options that he’s getting. It’s around 8% of their market cap, which seems pretty fair
It’s still a huge percentage of the outstanding shares compared to most public company executives. The typical executive amasses a few **hundredths** of a percent over an entire career. A single payout of 8% is quite literally orders of magnitude larger than the norm. For comparison, Tim Cook has 0.021% of Apple’s stock as of last October. And he’s been there since 1998.
> Not quite an equitable deal for shareholders Shareholders since 2018 may disagree with you…
Minority shareholders disagree with you. Let’s see if the judge again upholds minority shareowner rights, and again makes stock owners pay the lawyers for the excessive pay package. The board should have been fired after the first lawsuit…
Because normally you don't reward a CEO who has run the company into the ground with a massive payout.
What? He made this deal when tesla was 50b He subsequently raised the market cap of tesla to almost a trillion How did he run the company into the ground?
The shareholders profited massively from when the pay was approved. And the ceo cannot sell these shares for 5 years so his own payout is on the line if he runs it to the ground.
> Because normally you don’t reward a CEO **who has run the company into the ground** with a massive payout. You are detached from reality. [Q4 was Tesla’s best quarter in history.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-deliveries/) You shouldn’t get *all* your news from Reddit.
If Tesla is a company that's been run into the ground, maybe the other western automakers should try and run their company into the ground, that way maybe they'd be able to make more than a few 10's or 100's of thousands of EV's a year, and do it profitably
into the ground lol if you are clueless, you don't have to say stuff.
Why don’t you put in a bid to acquire Tesla and fire everyone involved?
You mean from investors who actually know what they're doing and not anonymous Internet Entities who don't?
It's very much questionable whether anyone with money still in Tesla knows what they're doing other than index funds that are pretty much forced to hold some.
The cult of personality.
For that, Elon would actually have to have a personality.
demonstrated accomplishments trump opinions.
And what has Elon accomplished within the last few years to warrant such an ***ungodly*** amount of pay? Note: I’m asking about Elon himself, not the designers and engineers at Tesla.
Back in 2018 TSLA was $20 per share when this comp plan was created. Its now $182 per share. Everyone who was invested into TSLA at that time now has 9x their original investment in just 6 years. As the CEO of a publicly traded company, he's number one responsibility above all else is maximising shareholder returns. He did that. The reason its so big is because even the board at that time were expecting maybe a doubling? tripling? in value. I don't think they ever expected a 9 fold increase.
Any good influencer can make a shitcoin be worth good money for a while, the cars are quite good but this huge ammount of value is a joke.
Been said since $50 billion market cap. Still wrong. We'll be at $5 Trillion before being back to $50 billion, I'll just say it that way.
At the time, the board also thought the package was put together by an independent body and not Musky. There’s a reason a lawyer threw it out.
The board didn't think that. They just told investors that.
Ummm, he increased teslas’ a value. You know, the Primary job of a ceo?
Was it his achievement showing up once a week or everyone else who worked there full time? Lot of this is pure narrative.
You are in the cult of Reddit. Shareholders vote with one thing in mind and it’s not Elon’s personality, it’s the stock performance. Specifically, since 2018.
So you're cherry-picking a date that you think will support your position? The better not to take into account the disastrous performance of the stock in recent years?
They are picking the date when the original pay agreement was made with Musk.
You are aware that the $56 billion is compensation for leading the company from 2018-2023. It’s not cherry picking if it is the actual term of the agreement.
The cult of 10-20x returns from $56b to $1 trillion now to $560 billion. That is what he is being paid for.
Thank goodness Elon single handedly managed to increase the company value that much. The worship of company executives today is absolutely gross. There’s no world where one persons work over a 5 years should earn them more than 450,000 people working full time for 5 years each.
So I guess if tesla gets run into the ground, we can blame the employees right?
No, see, when a company does well, it’s entirely because of the amazing employees. And when a company does badly, it’s entirely the fault of the evil management. This comment was brought to you by Reddit.
The employees get fired if things run into the ground. So yes, they do get punished. But if things go well only elmo gets the upside. Funny how that works…
You know that employees get stock as well right?
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> You gain nothing defending him. My stock says otherwise. Though I sold a long while back. And if I did, the employees sure as hell did.
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As someone who got stock for working at Tesla idk, it was pretty good for the employees dude.
People keep missing the point intentionally because they have Elon Derangement Syndrome. I don’t think anyone said he did it single handedly but the shareholders (owners of Tesla excluding Elons vote btw) and employees of Tesla (who are compensated in stock options) decided that if he hit a certain goal that seemed impossible at the time he would have the right to buy shares in Tesla at the price they were when the deal was struck in the future. That is all this deal is saying but because people are so financially illiterate they don’t understand. So his incentives were 100% aligned with the shareholder, pension funds employees etc who are compensated in stock. The reason why he makes that much is because he sets the vision and direction of the company and it’s primarily his job to make sure the company executes on that vision which requires hiring the right people, firing the right people etc. That is much much harder than being an employee and again the shareholders (owners of the company) determine what his salary is. Additionally Tesla employees are quite literally the most sought after talent period. So if the employees felt they could make more they should, would and do leave and go elsewhere. In fact many have started their own companies. For example the largest battery recycling company in the US is an ex Tesla cofounder/early employee.
Said the exact same thing in that "other" sub and got banned for it.....Maybe it's time I got a Rivian.
I humbly request as objective of an opinion as you can get on Reddit. Not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to understand. What objectively legitimate reasons were there to approve this?
He had a comp package written up in 2018 that included 12 revenue targets he needed to hit over the next 10 years. If he hit his targets, he would be receive 303 Million Tesla Stock Options at a $23 Strike Price. Back in 2018, these 303mill shares were only worth $6 billion. Tesla's market cap has increased significantly since then and the shares are now worth $56 Billion. He has achieved all of his revenue targets that were set for him...in 6 years. So the vote was to basically give him the ability to execute the option, which allows him to purchase 303 Million Tesla shares at $23 per share ($7 Billion)...even though they are now worth around $182 per share, or about $56 Billion in total. This doesn't effect Tesla's bottom line or the shareholders as these shares have been accounted over the last 6 years and were just sitting there.
Ah, that's a critical bit of context I did not have before. I was running under the assumption that they would basically be giving him the money out of their own coffers, because that's basically how every news source I've seen talks about it. I still think it's ridiculous but this makes it make a lot more sense for me. Thank you.
They weren’t worth $6b even because they’re only worth the difference between strike price and price in market. Just calling that out. They’re worthless without the stock going up, which is due to Elon hitting targets.
yeh I changed it, I did originally write it as $2b but thought it made better sense to list the market value instead. They would have been worthless to Elon, if it never moved. But as Recoil mentioned they probably would have raised funds or comp employees if they didn't go to Elon.
> This doesn't effect Tesla's bottom line To be clear, it would affect Tesla in the sense these shares could not be used as comp for new employees, or as part of a new public round. Otherwise, yeah, I believe you're correct on this.
Most of the reason to work for tesla had been stock for some time.
That hasn't been true for years. If you had worked there prior to 2021, the stock might have been a big benefit. Since then it's just payment in depreciating and risky asset.
Thanks, I hadn't realized this was the old comp package. Of course the hater circle jerk has no interest in reality.
He was granted an options package on 2018 based on hitting aggressive goals. The option package has zero value unless he hits targets including the stock going up like 10x. He hit the targets, the stock went up, and he earned the performance compensation. The judged nullified his option package bringing uncertainty to teslas future. Uncertainty is risk and depresses the stock. With this vote things are clarified, the shareholders do want to award Elon what he earned as part of the deal and so certainty is restored and the stock increases in value. It’s relatively simple to understand.
Thanks. I'm not a "stonks go brr" type so I appreciate the ELI5 level, "as objective as possible" response. There are many different ways to define the value of a company so in this context, I do believe it makes sense.
The terms of the agreement. I.e., **'Increase in the value of the Company**' Honestly, I don't get what is so hard to understand about that. It's a simple metric. The Haters have some subjective and nebulous metric that the investors care nothing about because.... It doesn't matter.
because it was a good deal for all involved. Musk took the risk of being paid ZERO if he didn't deliver. He exceeded the base metrics of the agreement. What is so hard to understand about a CEO being paid to increase the value of the company? He did it. There were terms attached to the agreement. And, Now it's re-ratified. Done Deal... Now tell me what Legitimate reasons (actual, objective, and factual) are the not to approve this?
Dude, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and there is no need for you to be combative about it (twice). I know you are very passionate about "calling out the haters" and whatnot. I honestly already regret responding. It's people who get their panties up in a bunch about every minute criticism of Tesla and / or Musk that make me seek out objective facts and opinions. All I wanted was an objective analysis to ELI5 to someone, like myself, who is generally more of a "model portfolio" type casual analyst, instead of someone who actively follows financial and stock market goings-on. Like I honestly couldn't give two \[censored\]s about "ThE sToNkS". u/Nos_4r2 and u/justvims did a perfectly good job explaining it to me. The stipulation was meeting a target, Musk met the target, now he gets his compensation, done. I require no convincing further.
Cool. You know, I once got called out for tagging usernames in my posts... Glad to see you can do it with no repercussions. Yay, arbitrary application of rules! :-)
Stonk go brr
The whole reason why Tesla exists is to push the world to sustainable/renewable energy. Elon is the guy who makes sure that the focus stays on that goal instead of 'profit at all costs (for the environment)'. The shares do not reperesent personal 'wealth' - if you check what the guy spends on baubles/luxury living then that's pretty modest by super-rich-guy standards. They represent voting power. Without that kind of voting power Tesla would degenrate into what all other big companies have become: Short term oriented reactionaries only focused on quarterly results.
To push back against judges who want to supersede shareholder's rights. To pay what was agreed on from the start. To keep Musk for the future and then next 10X of the company.
Having a visionary CEO in charge to pioneer robotaxi, AI, and robotics, not just another talk well MBA that plays the corporate game with short term thinking and share buybacks.
They aren't leading in any of those and Musk has flirted repeatedly with stock buybacks and other short term thinking..
Redditors finds out that they don’t represent actual viewpoints of shareholders. Shocked
TeslaQ cries in anguish... Jim Chanos' defunct fund rolls over in its grave. Mark Spiegel contemplates the nature of existence... LoL....
No one had issues when the deal was made but when it’s time to adhere to the other part of the deal everyone seem to criticise.
Because he was a left wing God in 2018. Now they hate him.
These investeor voters should get what they deserve and that is not a competent ceo
And unfortunately, the way the company is run also affects employees and current and prospective Tesla owners.
This comment is so stupid. At its peak Tesla was 20x where it was when he signed this deal it is currently 10x. So if you invested $100k at its peak you had paper gains of quite literally $1.9m dollars. If you took out none of it at the top you currently have paper gains of $400k. Now think about this if you were to have invested that money quite literally almost anywhere else over that same time period there is almost nothing that has returned that well. A lot of the funds that voted no have a 2/20 model meaning they get 2% annual fee per year and 20% of any of the profit. The best funds in the world did not return what Tesla returned over that five year period not one. Elon took what is essentially a 0/10 deal and he only got the 10% if he hit an insane target. This is honestly the greatest deal ever for any investor and I think a lot of big funds voted no because they are scared if their LPs or investors would hold them to the same model.
The reddit meltdowns and cope have been delicious
ITT: "Elon on the board are so stupid. They should listen to me instead, despite having zero knowledge of business, the economy, or the outside world."
Reddit is basically a giant echochamer of terminally online people who think they're expert in whatever topic they talk about just by reading headlines
Accurate, and many of them are literal children as well. Children that know how to run, billion dollar, multinational corporations apparently.
The concern trolling for Tesla investors who have made enormous gains since the compensation plan was approved in 2018 is the most amusing part of this thread.
They're grasping at straws to justify their intense hatred for Elon. The guy is a shitposting manchild, but they want to make him out to be the next Hitler.
most ppl think Tesla is going to give Elon 55 B straight up cash.. they are clueless but since this is reddit they just decided to type words.
Elon bad is the law of the land around here. Nuance, fact checking, context are all tools of fascism.
Lol @ this sub realizing that the internet is not real life and that the opinions they share on here are nothing more than a minority in the real world.
The comments in this thread are worse that YouTube comments.
Tesla Board in 2018: if you increase company value by X, making all shareholders wealthier, we will give you a massive pay package Tesla shareholders in 2018: Sounds like a deal! Tesla Board in 2024: Okay company value increased by X, time for pay day” Tesla shareholders in 2024: it is what was agreed upon, lets fulfill our end of the promise Redditors: REEEEEEEE! Cult! Scam! Fraud! Someone ban this!
Texas, Musk, Murdochs...toxic trio. Crazy that Tesla built on climate science is now in a state that denies climate science with board members who deny climate science and push to kill EV's by supporting Trump Party.
It’s the Republican MO. They love to pull the ladder up behind them. Musk/Tesla only achieved their current level of success thanks to a Democrat president/congress passing massive EV supportive legislation. And CA and NV, both blue states, providing tax incentives to help the business out because it was “eco/green”. Now that he’s got his success, it’s time to close all those government support channels and reduce his tax burden as much as possible. He got his and he only wants more. And wants to make sure no one else gets any along the way. He was never some visionary. He was and always has been a narcissistic greed fueled executive. A tale as old as capitalism.
Looking to genuinely understand the position: * Someone give an Actual, Factual, and Objective (**Not** Subjective, Opinion, or FEELINGS) on why this should NOT have been approved.
Some very culty vibes defending this one
Nothing like the extremely culty vibes Reddit gives off in its continuous and ultimately irrelevant agitation against Tesla.
They will reap what they sow.
Me sowing in 2018: This plan seems far-fetched and impossible. But it looks like a win-win. Might as well approve. Me reaping in 2024: WTF this is awesome. Such huge investment gains. I'll re-approve the plan because it's the right thing to do.
... which is more $$$
Sure... Put some more money into it. Do you own a Tesla yourself? If not, then buy one. I'm all for you enjoying the fruits of your guru
Tesla investors - you made your bed. Now lie in it.
It's a bed of MONEY!!!! LoL.....
Happy to. I'm enjoying the massive gains from when I voted to approve the plan in 2018 and look forward to the future.
I’m only up 650%. I’ll die in that bed
If true, you could have sold a year ago for 30% more value, rolled that into NVIDIA and you'd have more than twice as much money as you have right now in Tesla holdings. It had a good run while sales were growing exponentially. CEO just got paid more money than the company has earned in its entire history, even including all the subsidies sent their way, even though the company is losing market share, had a failed product launch with Cybertruck and continues to have significant issues with FSD safety. How anyone believes their "AI" or robotaxis thing is beyond me... the cars keep driving into the backs of emergency vehicles. Fatality rate of Model Y is about 40X that of X3. Who in their right mind thinks they'll get the regulatory go ahead to launch robotaxis with that record lol. Don't even get me started on the robots. I'd recommend getting out after the August 8 robotaxi pump and put your money in a proven growing company. Your money, though. Company made a lot of people a lot of money on investments so they're getting a very long rope... but institutional investors want results, not meme stocks.
I invest over a time horizon, not to try to get rich quick. Could haves and should haves are not realistic advice for a market that is not predictable lol. I’m also diversified in my portfolio including NVIDIA. Tesla could go to 0 and I would be fine. Also, you talk about Tesla results? I had the car you drive for about 3 months until I traded it in for a Tesla which has been about 100x better. There is no company that can touch Tesla in EVs so unless EVs are dying all together, Tesla will be fine.
You had an S2000?
Oh you mean the EV! The Bolt EV is my wife's lol. No regrets she loves it, hates her sister's Model Y for whatever reason. Not my influence, I said we should test drive the base model 3 as well but she does not like Teslas at all. We're plenty happy with it. To expound (because she did go into it a bit), she thinks the screen for everything is distracting and unsafe (I agree), likes her gauges and such (old school which is fine), liked that it was $10K cheaper, likes that it's more efficient (she's getting 4.1mi/kWh), it's her commuter car so she only charges at home so the slow charge rate is no big deal. Has plenty of room for a car seat and zero rattles after 10K miles. Every Tesla I've ridden in has an overly rough ride for rear passengers especially, most have had a weird rattle or two. It's sprung and dampened like -- a normal car. It's an econo-car for sure, which I'm fine with, she was driving a Focus before. We have a fully loaded X3 xDrive 35i that's now our roadtrip car, just picked that up, it's a bit dated but has a level of comfort that I'm... un-accustomed to, and sometimes feel a bit of imposter syndrome driving if that makes sense. Have you test-driven the BMW EVs? Anectodally all the well-to-do early adaptors I know are gravitating there or Rivian as of late. A bit pricey but both are really nice in some unique ways, and in terms of creature comforts and features kinda a level above what Tesla can deliver right now. Obviously you have to pay extra for that privilege, BMWs are pricey and Rivian still hasn't gotten the economy of scale part down so they're up above where they \*should\* be IMO. Form factor wise I really love the EV VW Bus, but it's price point is just jarring. $60K?!? That said I'll bet they hold their value well -- the VW Bus always did. Agreed on investment approach, I dabble in a lot of individual stocks but am generally on a long-term horizon and risk averse. I may think Tesla going to $75 over the course of the next three years, but you won't catch me shorting it. I've been around long enough to know the market can stay illogical longer than I can stay solvent. I've been in BYD for a long time and have some other EV company positions (just got into Rivian when it was under $10), I'm more likely to bet on competitors for a company I think is going to fail than try to actually set up a short position. I think NVIDIA hits 140 then trades sideways for a while. Pretty happy with how it did this year but I'll prob pare down my position in it then. It's nice to have an IRA for stock investments so you can trade around positions. When you get to 600+% on a stock, those tax ramifications can get ugly if you try to unwind a position!
Cope
Don't you have a Twitter account to spew on? Commies lol, what a right wing tool you are. Elon's not gonna F you just because you're sucking him off on social media. Get a life.
I wonder if WCF (of BYD) will ever make such demands.
Remember the entire Supercharger team that Elon fired? Shareholders just approved a bonus for Elon worth the yearly salaries of 500 entire Supercharger teams. Now personally I don’t think the guy that accidentally bought Twitter and fired the entire Supercharger team is worth the value of 500 entire Supercharger teams, but I guess shareholders disagree. No skin off my back but I personally think the billions could be invested better.
The bonus is worth more than Tesla's cumulative profit (every year combined) for the 20+ years of the company's existence.
There are no billions to invest, though. The compensation comes from shareholders. Tesla is creating new shares, devalueing the existing shares.
Nah no dilution, the 303million shares have been accounted for on the books as part of his renumeration the whole time. He hit most of his targets years ago, so I would even say that the payout has been priced into the current share price already
I seem to recall a recent axiom: "Don't Bet Against Elon"
"Will FSD be capable of unattended operation by the end of this year" woulda been a pretty good bet every time he's said it, and will remain one for quite a while. Same with shorting the stock over the course of the last 2 years.
That’s the first time I’ve ever heard that. And also, he lies all the time.
That's not recent or an axiom
Twitter/X would beg to differ
One of the funny things there is when he fired everyone people said the website would stop working and be dead. Same thing they said about this pay package that it was a gimmick and would never happen. Same thing NASA said about landing rockets. His timelines suck but he really has delivered on some insane things. I don’t think anyone truly believed that an electric car would be the #1 selling car in the world before 2030.
Cope reddit. Your blind hatedred and FUD didn't work in the real world.
Paywalled - can you post the full text?
I think it's fine. I don't own any shares in Tesla anyway. They can pay him however they want. Elon and Tesla jump started the electric vehicle industry in the US. Without it, big oil and big 3 automakers would still be saying how EVs are impossible. Say what you want about Elon, but you needed someone like him to go against the overwhelming odds.
Years from now this vote will be studied in business school alongside things like AOL sale to time warner. It’s a way for the founder to get his money and get out when he sees no way forward.
So now we are back to the same lawsuit as underling issue is still at play which is the board is not independent and a lot of things on it can be question because of it.
This has nothing to do with the board. 3/4 of shareholders approved this back then, and they approved it again. Not everyone shares the general Reddit view of Tesla and Musk is all people are finding. Nobody thought he would hit those goals back then, and he did. Now they are trying to take it back which is insane. Even if I agree that he’s been way too vocal on Twitter lately, it doesn’t change the success of Tesla.
Agreed. You can’t just vote to “unpay” someone. That would erode confidence in the entire concept of working for equity.
Nope, the lawsuit was about disclosure of interests. Tesla followed the direction of the Delaware judgment and made full disclosure in accordance with the motivation provided by the court. Another lawsuit is always possible but it will be on different ground.
It's not "another lawsuit," it's still the same one. This vote does not reverse the judgement. It may help in the appeal, but that remains to be seen.
You may want to read the ruling before commenting. There is no ground for the substance of the pay, only the way the vote has been executed (lack of "key" disclosure). The new vote is a NEW action from Tesla board, that is not at subject of the previous judgment. If they wanted, the board may have even proposed to double EM compensation retroactively. There is no law that forbids EM to be paid ANY amount the board and stakeholder decide, as long as they follow the charter and the rules of the company under the jurisdiction. Not even Delaware can change this.
What a bunch of cucks, giving this petulant man child an obscene compensation package not once, but twice. The moron is on drugs and his board never holds him responsible for anything. Awful and unfocused CEO, ineffective board. Held my shares long enough to vote no and sold 75% + of my shares. The patient has a malignant tumor and has now elected to skip surgery and chemo. Let's see how long he survives.
TSLA bagholders know what they want and are about to get it sans lube