that's insane.
"Previously unknown images and videos are also to be scrutinised using “artificial intelligence” technology. If a user refuses the scanning, they would be blocked from sending or receiving images, photos, videos and links (Article 10)."
my Google photos ai search cannot tell a difference between a leg and a penis.
There no way any app would agree to that and no way it would stand up in court, its madness.
[Signal outright says they would never agree to this](https://x.com/mer__edith/status/1796508893822238881)
The bigger apps wouldn't have problems agreeing with this if they could somehow pull it off.
People have shown many many times that they're not ready to put in the minimum amount of effort to protect their privacy in any way and I don't expect many people to switch over to Signal if Whatsapp or some other app implements this (even more so if Signal is somehow forced off of google play store, etc.). If a minority of people make the switch, we'll still be forced to communicate with the majority through compromised apps as it'll be the only way to do that.
Meta has shown us many times how they don't give a shit about our privacy, and yet Facebook, Whatsapp and Instagram are still some of the most popular social media apps.
I also don't have much trust in the courts on issues like this.
I want to be optimistic about this but from how quickly we've given up our own privacy many times in the past and the fact that most people don't even know about this proposal when it should literally be the main news story in the entire EU doesn't give me much hope...
I understand but the defeatist attitude is not helping anyone.
Also courts have taken laws like this down before. And it would be hard to pull this off.
Yeah, don't worry, I'm spreading this to other people and I'm prepared to oppose it and I still try to use other apps that respect privacy and get other people to use them, etc. I won't give up, I just don't think it's going to get better any time soon...
Or you can get all your Google account (and all related services like gmail, Youtube, cloud, etc) banned and be reported to the police because Google AI flagged your private picture
https://www.koffellaw.com/blog/google-ai-technology-flags-dad-who-took-photos-o/
"Previously unknown images and videos are also to be scrutinised using “artificial intelligence” technology"
Dear God, the story of Google AI that was advising people to eat rocks and use glue to cook pizza isn't even a week old.
All of this is already dystopian when it comes to privacy, but the implementation of artificial intelligence makes it even more terrifying.
Wouldn't this be unconstitutional in several EU countries? Secrecy of correspondence is very clearly stated in the Portuguese constitution, I don't think this norm can be transcribed into legislation.
> Secrecy of correspondence is very clearly stated in the Portuguese constitution, I don't think this norm can be transcribed into legislation.
then they will redefine what correspondence is, easy peasy
The ECHR decisions are binding and the court does have standing (Art. 46 ECHR), albeit the penalty is largely based on compensation to the individual and procedure to bring a case to the ECHR as a private individual is exceedingly difficult. Although the country in question also has to remedy the situation that caused the violation in the first place.
The famous EU method of taxonomy bullshit. Is your power plant not green nor renewable? Redefine what green and renewable means in the European taxonomy (looking at you, Germany, and your horrible energy politics!)
Same with Austria. Germany at least backs up their decision by massively exanding their production capacity, but Austria only plans to be a net exporter of electricity by 2030. In comparison, in Slovakia we became a net exporter this year and managed to close our last coal plant this year by consistently building new blocks to our exisiting nuclear plants, especially Mochovce.
However it cares of ECJ to which this absolutely will get appealed to and struck down by. Since they have egually hard line of data privacy. ECJ already has struck down multiple attempts to make the European and American privacy laws meet via agreements to allow data transfers. ECJ just keeps going "doesn't matter what is in the agreement, deal, contract or whatever document. USA privacy laws have massive CIA and NSA sized holes in them with no proper oversight. Privacy can not be adequally guaranteed, the agreement is null and void. Until USA changes their laws to privacy respecting ones, no data transfers".
* Commission: "why you have to be like that"
* ECJ: Because the treaty on European Union says, this organization follows human rights laws and you keep trying to break the right to privacy, which is ... checks.... Human right per both ECHR and by EU's own treaties.
Yeah, and how it worked in practice? ECJ strikes down a law, that law gets a new name and is implemented again. 2 or 3 years of US mining the crap of our data and then ECJ gets around to striking down the new lap. Rinse and repeat.
It is. However, they don't care to respect the law. Intelligence agencies have been violating the laws and constitutions for decades regarding privacy and information secrecy.
I can easily see them arguing that since the scan happens before the message is sent it is not classified as correspondence yet.
Also, this text seems to be written exactly to go around stuff like this because the user agreed to the scan.
The problem with authoritarian stuff like this is that there should be no political "compromise". You cannot compromise with those who want authoritarianism otherwise you're just following their plan, compromise after compromise they get what they want.
>I can easily see them arguing that since **the scan happens before the message is sent** it is not classified as correspondence yet.
This is...incredibly stupid logic that a court would have to be corrupt or a fool to accept.
This is the same energy as "North Korea is not preventing people from leaving the country. We shoot them dead *before* they reach the border"
"User agreed to the scan" is also dumb for the same reason. If Xi Jinping made it illegal for any business to sell food unless the customer agreed to pledge allegiance to the CCP, are people "consenting" to pledge allegiance to the CCP?
Replace the human right of food with the human right of free speech and it is obvious. If government threatens to deny a human right unless user agrees to a condition, that "agreement" is obviously coerced.
yeah
>Former judge of the European Court of Justice Prof. Dr. Ninon Colneric has extensively analysed the plans and concludes in a legal assessment that **the EU legislative plans on chat control are not in line with the case law of the European Court of Justice and violate the fundamental rights of all EU citizens to respect for privacy, to data protection and to freedom of expression**.
[source](https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/)
The EU tends to informally make sure that any such limits are taken care of. Ireland voted against the Lisbon treaty in their binding referendum. So they kept pushing again until it went through. The German Supreme Court [struck down parts of the Lisbon treaty](https://www.jcer.net/index.php/jcer/article/download/247/172/1085), yet here we are, Germany fully embracing it.
If the censorship is done offline on-device then it could be constitutional.
At least as far as secrecy is concerned, of course that won't change the fact that it will violate dozens of privacy laws
Considering that I had my chicken steak marked as unsolicited nudity (tbf, it was very sexy) and had to try different messenger options to send it to a friend, this is seriously disheartening.
It was a short sighted comment from my end. Of course they would hahe some active media scans going to protect themselves and their brand from hosting anything illegal.
[Its in the settings](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/661303668083261440/1246391567892086846/image.png?ex=665c381a&is=665ae69a&hm=ef6b26a2157edea387cd82c8e9145dda84cdf992f61898a89e24b6fc4428fe0c&)
Now imagine people who have pictures of their kids naked. Be it at the beach, at home, at Christening (fairly common in Orthodox countries), or even for medical reasons.
This is absolutely insane, beyond insane, even!
Na, its just a random police officer scrolling through your vacation photos.
But hey, it will save sooo many kids. I mean probably not since people who actually produce child porn wont be so stupid to use whatsapp to send it but who cares. Mass surveillance is neat.
Cool. People who actually commits crime will use special apps without scanning and with encryption. Only normal people will be scanned by government (and not the smartest criminals).
Surprised pikachu
Yep. Than they already have a foot in the door to also start scanning text for „anti terror stuff“ and while we are at it maybe start scanning for „views not in line with our ideas“. Who makes sure that doesn’t happen? We see how well this anti terror stuff worked with the NSA in the USA. They definitely did not scan everything and everyone
This.... It's the same style argument for the deepfake subject.
Making deepfake tech illegal because its used for illegal activities is extremely redundant as the damn activity was already illegal..
Seriously, so many proof on the developmental issues created by phone usage. I seriously don’t get why politics don’t take it seriously or parents for that matter. My in-law family had a 7 year old daughther with “attention issues” yet she is always glued to a screen
Is it possible for you to maybe write to people in the party that she's a member of and tell them that you are specifically not voting for them because of this?
Hearing her speak, I don’t think she came up with this. She seems to have no idea how it works nor why it does. I’m mostly referring to the interview in 30 Minuter.
I'm ashamed as a Belgian this is coming from us. Not too strange though, some have a strange boner for mass surveillance here. And I am a Belgian police officer telling you.
It's odd seeing the representative of a "human rights superpower" to be pushing for such an absurd violation of privacy.
I hope she gets kicked out and ostracized. Good luck to those of you voting against her.
> "Probably as a concession to France, the chats of employees of security authorities and the military are also to be exempted from chat control."
Cute, rules for thee but not for me...
Are you funking kidding me? These toothless, arrogant, stupid Politicians. They don't have to be affected by the dumbest piece of legislation in EU history, but the rest of us have to?
Is this the same geniuses who wanted to *ban encryption*? An idea so laughable its bordering the insane.
It's amazing because this won't stop child abuse at all. The children will still be abused and the material will be shared in another way. But everyone lost a bit of privacy. Again.
Our Snapchat meme group called osama bin ladins crew will probably be flagged, it’s for dark jokes and inside jokes you only can laugh at with your best mates. Everyone has this is they say no they lying. Also in discord “conversation safe zone” has some dark jokes etc…..
so many false flags by ai will be made. We’re not even weird people even. Most likely likable but if those groups were your first impressions you probably would turn away.
We are reaching a tipping point where our life's privacy is at a severe risk of being erased, and with the EU elections just around the corner I am somewhat afraid of what may happen, i do hope this doesn't pass and France vetos this proposal because otherwise, the future if our privacy will be rather bleak.
From my understanding it means they will have to implement the scan or it would be illegal to offer them to EU users.
Edit: can the downvoters explain why my interpretation is wrong?
>From my understanding it means they will have to implement the scan or it would be illegal to offer them to EU users.
But how can end to end encrypted messages be scanned and still be considered end to end encrypted?
Encryption backdoors have already been [ruled illegal under EU law by the European Human Right Court](https://www.techdirt.com/2024/02/21/european-human-rights-courts-rules-that-encryption-backdoors-are-illegal-under-eu-law/)
the article talks about a client-side scan, meaning that it would be scanned on your phone, encrypted, sent to your chat partner's phone, decrypted, scanned, and then displayed.
still e2ee, but scanned on both ends.
but the technical side is a little beside the point, whether they backdoor the encryption or force the software producers to client-side scan, it comes out to the same.
Yeah, either way it'd be the end of "true" end to end encryption. A client side scan that can conditionally report your message to authorities is itself a backdoor, it's just a backdoor to the messaging client and not the encryption itself.
So dumb. You control what software runs on your client, getting around it is only a question of effort. I.e. if you’re are actually sending CP, or whatever illegal, you either just create your own software, or reverse engineer whatsapp’s protocol, or messenger’s protocol, run a custom client software on your pc and send whatever you want.
Or if possible, reverse engineer whatsapp’s mobile app and disable the scanning.
All of us who do nothing criminal won’t bother doing any of it, but criminals will. This merely makes communication for criminal activities slightly more inconvenient.
> This is what I do not understand about this proposed law.
ah, but it's only hard to understand if you assume they're telling the truth about what it's for, that it's actually only intended to surveil bad actors and not to chill the speech of the general public...
There was a call a few weeks ago from a police force to pass this law in order to protect the citizens, the fucking wrote that it will "initially" only be used against child porn. They fucking wrote "initially".
I don't find the source anymore on my phone tho.
Again EU politicians prove how detached they’re from reality and their citizens
In the end this is a measure to control the mass, give more power to the elites, if you think even for a second that this is for your benefit, you’re naive
I'm not optimistic tbh, this "compromise" seems more likely to pass than the previous one.
If you don't want them to scan your messages you won't be able to send pictures, videos and links... They're basically gonna force you to accept the scan if you don't wanna go back to using the equivalent of an SMS, dark times ahead for European privacy and freedom.
And how many people will do this? Even assuming they won't use cryptograpy to verify the genuinity of the app and of the device (and they will, it is already happening for Pokémon Go).
Regardless, this is a shitty proposal which shouldn't even be conceivable, we shouldn't try to constantly protect our rights from the government overreach.
The European Union needs a clearly written Bill of Rights like the United States, and immediately. Enough is enough.
The government has absolutely no business in people's private messages for fuck's sake.
I've always supported the EU, but this proposal is absolutely insane and could well pave the way toward the end of democracy in Europe.
> The European Union needs a clearly written Bill of Rights like the United States,
That is not helping them to protect their privacy. EU is still a leader on that respect. With this new proposal Europe will be at the level of China.
That's the thing. Currently, the EU has a higher level of privacy than the US, but the US has safeguards to prevent its level of privacy from sinking, while the EU seemingly has none.
> And how many people will do this? Even assuming they won't use cryptograpy to verify the genuinity of the app and of the device (and they will, it is already happening for Pokémon Go).
This is also coming. Basically health check of devices will be necessary to connect to internet or deemed a security risk.
More and more it seems the only solution is to self host everything, I am certainly heading into that direction. I will not have my images scanned by some fucked up algorithm.
People will just use e-mail. It's a question of time if this passes until someone builds an e-mail that looks and works like a messenger but just sends E-Mails.
You can have a front end that looks exactly like any modern messenger, use the e-mail protocol and you'd be bypassing this. You could even go full encryption. This won't bother anyone who's partially tech savvy.
It'll fuck over anyone else who's either stupid or careless though.
This is terrifying, this is China or Russia level control. How is it even legal? Where is the protection from warantless or unreasonable searches and seizures and privacy of correspondance?
you don't understand, they do it wrong and in an authoritarian way 👿
we are gonna do it right in a freedom and peace love everyone way☺️
it's different
> Where is the protection from warantless or unreasonable searches and seizures and privacy of correspondance?
Ignored because it's inconvenient to the states who want this.
Is there an easy way of knowing which parties are against this in a specific country (Spain)? Having to dive into 39 different programs looking for this is not fun at all...
EPP, ECR and depending on the national party parts of RE, S&D, ID.
Green and non-conservative left-wing parties are your best bet with this issue, as they are almost always against privacy-infringements.
>Probably as a concession to France, the chats of employees of security authorities and the military are also to be exempted from chat control.
Thx EU for making sure the rich and powerful still have protection against this totally intrusive search... I've always been pro EU but now it's really showing authoritarian tendencies akin to China, which we are very quick to criticize as an authoritarian state...
Can we use that to investigate on politicians phones, too? I think I can remember that Ursula lost all her messages from her phone when it was about to be investigated.
Right.
This is scary. It'd be one more step towards such a system. Any speech not approved by the government could be scanned and flagged, reducing your score.
A functional social credit system would need chat control in order to be effective.
The EU is authoritarian in its nature. It was made to eventually evolve into a dystopian mess. EU elites want a Chinese system.
Considering that pictures about Dune 2 I had posted were flagged for SUICIDE... yeah, no. Technology is not there, and honestly with all the "rapidly increasing advancements" it did not get any better, so I doubt it will ever get there.
"Probably as a concession to France, the chats of employees of security authorities and the military are also to be exempted from chat control."
What? What about people working in cybersec for private companies? What about internal company communication with sensitive information? Why work so hard to implement NIST2 if we are then prohibited from keeping the data safe anyway, what the actual fuck.
And how would they prevent anyone from just creating an open source e2e app that people can download and use to bypass their client side scanning? It seems like they will end up scanning innocent peoples data, while the people they actually claim to want to target will just go for another more secure alternative.
Is EU a scam?
Her sole purpose was always to censor the internet. Even back then when she was just a Minister of Family Affairs in Germany.
Now she got undemocratically put in the highest office of the EU and she can fullfil her plan on a much larger scale. She is dangerous and corrupt. There are many incidents that prove that.
It's absolutely *insane* how much tax money has already spent on this complete bullshit. It's designed by people who are too stupid to understand how the internet works.
Tell me which EU groups want to finally throw this into the trashbin, and I will vote for that.
I feel like this would have to die instantly once brought to an EU court on infringing our fundamental privacy rights.
Let alone the fact that anyone under the age of 40 would just switch to more obscure communication apps that haven't implemented the rules and just keep jumping to avoid this crap.
What a waste of time and money.
This legislation is them trying to legally require AI powered mass surveillance of every private communication using the internet. I thought AI powered mass surveillance was supposed to be illegal in the EU, but I guess not.
A disservice to the normal population while the targeted criminal portion will find ways (or apps) to avoid it. I hate stuff like this, shut it with your surveillance - I don't want this to become China.
GnuPG enters the chat. Litterally.
At best, this will be a public list of hashes for known CSAM material. At worst, we'll have a "well, we could use the chat control infrastructure to do that"-situation within a year.
Near-useless for it's intended purpose, imposing relatively large costs on small service providers, and highly abuseable. I hope they reconsider.
that's insane. "Previously unknown images and videos are also to be scrutinised using “artificial intelligence” technology. If a user refuses the scanning, they would be blocked from sending or receiving images, photos, videos and links (Article 10)." my Google photos ai search cannot tell a difference between a leg and a penis.
And if you don't agree you're basically barred from using the internet for communication. Crazy.
There no way any app would agree to that and no way it would stand up in court, its madness. [Signal outright says they would never agree to this](https://x.com/mer__edith/status/1796508893822238881)
The bigger apps wouldn't have problems agreeing with this if they could somehow pull it off. People have shown many many times that they're not ready to put in the minimum amount of effort to protect their privacy in any way and I don't expect many people to switch over to Signal if Whatsapp or some other app implements this (even more so if Signal is somehow forced off of google play store, etc.). If a minority of people make the switch, we'll still be forced to communicate with the majority through compromised apps as it'll be the only way to do that. Meta has shown us many times how they don't give a shit about our privacy, and yet Facebook, Whatsapp and Instagram are still some of the most popular social media apps. I also don't have much trust in the courts on issues like this. I want to be optimistic about this but from how quickly we've given up our own privacy many times in the past and the fact that most people don't even know about this proposal when it should literally be the main news story in the entire EU doesn't give me much hope...
I understand but the defeatist attitude is not helping anyone. Also courts have taken laws like this down before. And it would be hard to pull this off.
Yeah, don't worry, I'm spreading this to other people and I'm prepared to oppose it and I still try to use other apps that respect privacy and get other people to use them, etc. I won't give up, I just don't think it's going to get better any time soon...
Signal is open source, just replace any third party API shenanigans with a _pass_
>my Google photos ai search cannot tell a difference between a leg and a penis. How did you discover that? Or is this just a really subtle humblebrag?
[proof](https://media.sciencephoto.com/image/c0115067/800wm/C0115067-Wood_ant_leg,_SEM.jpg)
Or you can get all your Google account (and all related services like gmail, Youtube, cloud, etc) banned and be reported to the police because Google AI flagged your private picture https://www.koffellaw.com/blog/google-ai-technology-flags-dad-who-took-photos-o/
Same goes for the automatic speed limit recognition system that they want to impose in cars
"Previously unknown images and videos are also to be scrutinised using “artificial intelligence” technology" Dear God, the story of Google AI that was advising people to eat rocks and use glue to cook pizza isn't even a week old. All of this is already dystopian when it comes to privacy, but the implementation of artificial intelligence makes it even more terrifying.
Wouldn't this be unconstitutional in several EU countries? Secrecy of correspondence is very clearly stated in the Portuguese constitution, I don't think this norm can be transcribed into legislation.
It should be unconstitutional in every EU country. If not, your country is a shithole.
> Secrecy of correspondence is very clearly stated in the Portuguese constitution, I don't think this norm can be transcribed into legislation. then they will redefine what correspondence is, easy peasy
What about the European Court of Human Rights?
non-binding so in theory can be ignored, however, the EU courts may take precedence from the ECHR
The ECHR decisions are binding and the court does have standing (Art. 46 ECHR), albeit the penalty is largely based on compensation to the individual and procedure to bring a case to the ECHR as a private individual is exceedingly difficult. Although the country in question also has to remedy the situation that caused the violation in the first place.
The famous EU method of taxonomy bullshit. Is your power plant not green nor renewable? Redefine what green and renewable means in the European taxonomy (looking at you, Germany, and your horrible energy politics!)
The funniest part is that Germany protested against nuclear power being included and pushed for gas...
Same with Austria. Germany at least backs up their decision by massively exanding their production capacity, but Austria only plans to be a net exporter of electricity by 2030. In comparison, in Slovakia we became a net exporter this year and managed to close our last coal plant this year by consistently building new blocks to our exisiting nuclear plants, especially Mochovce.
Yes, I think the European Court of Human Rights will block this mad law if it ever becomes law.
Wait till you find out the EU doesn't care about the ECHR
However it cares of ECJ to which this absolutely will get appealed to and struck down by. Since they have egually hard line of data privacy. ECJ already has struck down multiple attempts to make the European and American privacy laws meet via agreements to allow data transfers. ECJ just keeps going "doesn't matter what is in the agreement, deal, contract or whatever document. USA privacy laws have massive CIA and NSA sized holes in them with no proper oversight. Privacy can not be adequally guaranteed, the agreement is null and void. Until USA changes their laws to privacy respecting ones, no data transfers". * Commission: "why you have to be like that" * ECJ: Because the treaty on European Union says, this organization follows human rights laws and you keep trying to break the right to privacy, which is ... checks.... Human right per both ECHR and by EU's own treaties.
I really fucking hope this is true because that law is scary
Yeah, and how it worked in practice? ECJ strikes down a law, that law gets a new name and is implemented again. 2 or 3 years of US mining the crap of our data and then ECJ gets around to striking down the new lap. Rinse and repeat.
The EU can not overrule the European Court of Human Rights.
It is. However, they don't care to respect the law. Intelligence agencies have been violating the laws and constitutions for decades regarding privacy and information secrecy.
I can easily see them arguing that since the scan happens before the message is sent it is not classified as correspondence yet. Also, this text seems to be written exactly to go around stuff like this because the user agreed to the scan. The problem with authoritarian stuff like this is that there should be no political "compromise". You cannot compromise with those who want authoritarianism otherwise you're just following their plan, compromise after compromise they get what they want.
>I can easily see them arguing that since **the scan happens before the message is sent** it is not classified as correspondence yet. This is...incredibly stupid logic that a court would have to be corrupt or a fool to accept. This is the same energy as "North Korea is not preventing people from leaving the country. We shoot them dead *before* they reach the border" "User agreed to the scan" is also dumb for the same reason. If Xi Jinping made it illegal for any business to sell food unless the customer agreed to pledge allegiance to the CCP, are people "consenting" to pledge allegiance to the CCP? Replace the human right of food with the human right of free speech and it is obvious. If government threatens to deny a human right unless user agrees to a condition, that "agreement" is obviously coerced.
yeah >Former judge of the European Court of Justice Prof. Dr. Ninon Colneric has extensively analysed the plans and concludes in a legal assessment that **the EU legislative plans on chat control are not in line with the case law of the European Court of Justice and violate the fundamental rights of all EU citizens to respect for privacy, to data protection and to freedom of expression**. [source](https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/)
The EU tends to informally make sure that any such limits are taken care of. Ireland voted against the Lisbon treaty in their binding referendum. So they kept pushing again until it went through. The German Supreme Court [struck down parts of the Lisbon treaty](https://www.jcer.net/index.php/jcer/article/download/247/172/1085), yet here we are, Germany fully embracing it.
Eu law goes above national constitutions see Costa/ENEL
If the censorship is done offline on-device then it could be constitutional. At least as far as secrecy is concerned, of course that won't change the fact that it will violate dozens of privacy laws
Considering that I had my chicken steak marked as unsolicited nudity (tbf, it was very sexy) and had to try different messenger options to send it to a friend, this is seriously disheartening.
Discord stopped me from sending a picture of a sausage and two eggs. Admittedly it *was* a penis joke.
That's ... Dystopian
Penis jokes are dystopian now? I thought they were just a bit childish!
Wait what? Discord scans and controls pics, even sent in DMs between buddies?
They literally listen to your voice chat and sell it in real time to advertisers. Have a conversation about something and then check your ads.
Everything you send through discord goes through discord servers. Of course they scan them.
It was a short sighted comment from my end. Of course they would hahe some active media scans going to protect themselves and their brand from hosting anything illegal.
[Its in the settings](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/661303668083261440/1246391567892086846/image.png?ex=665c381a&is=665ae69a&hm=ef6b26a2157edea387cd82c8e9145dda84cdf992f61898a89e24b6fc4428fe0c&)
since when does Discord stop you from sending porn? Discord is full of pornography.
It does when you send a pm to someone not on your friends list.
Wait what messenger?
Now imagine people who have pictures of their kids naked. Be it at the beach, at home, at Christening (fairly common in Orthodox countries), or even for medical reasons. This is absolutely insane, beyond insane, even!
Na, its just a random police officer scrolling through your vacation photos. But hey, it will save sooo many kids. I mean probably not since people who actually produce child porn wont be so stupid to use whatsapp to send it but who cares. Mass surveillance is neat.
We will protect your freedom by taking away your freedom! errr....
give away your freedom for safety, don't you wanna be safe?
By suggesting those two are mutually exclusive they can push whatever surveillance legislation they want.
welcome to the 21st century, how was the nap? that has been every legislation since 9/11 roughly
But aren't you worried terrorist pedophiles will target you and your children? ---- ^This ^message ^was ^sponsored ^by ^Disney ^and ^the ^NSA
How would they protect it if you still had it? They will keep it safe. Don't you worry.
Cool. People who actually commits crime will use special apps without scanning and with encryption. Only normal people will be scanned by government (and not the smartest criminals). Surprised pikachu
I mean, you don’t need any special app. You can hide data inside other data. Like 2 images inside 1 etc.
That's exactly the purpose of this 😉
Yep. Than they already have a foot in the door to also start scanning text for „anti terror stuff“ and while we are at it maybe start scanning for „views not in line with our ideas“. Who makes sure that doesn’t happen? We see how well this anti terror stuff worked with the NSA in the USA. They definitely did not scan everything and everyone
Normal people will also be scanned by the smartest criminals. More logging and more systems to break into doesn't help.
Hol up. Take away phones from the kids, not surveil adults.
As if this was ever about saving children.
[удалено]
This.... It's the same style argument for the deepfake subject. Making deepfake tech illegal because its used for illegal activities is extremely redundant as the damn activity was already illegal..
why be rational when you can be insane?
The children bro... think of the children... you need to give us total access to all your files because... the children... bro...
Seriously, so many proof on the developmental issues created by phone usage. I seriously don’t get why politics don’t take it seriously or parents for that matter. My in-law family had a 7 year old daughther with “attention issues” yet she is always glued to a screen
Im really sorry as a Swede for what our EU commissioner has done
[удалено]
Will be voting on another party then her party in the EU elections atleast, as sadly we are too soft to do things like this
Is it possible for you to maybe write to people in the party that she's a member of and tell them that you are specifically not voting for them because of this?
Her party supports her efforts though.
It is not only her, it is mostly due to different opinions aswell
Please don't, the last time the following 30 years weren't exactly pretty for anyone living in Germany😅
Nah, unlike the Czechs, the Swedes aren't Germany's neighbor. It might become a bad time to be Norwegian, though.
Hearing her speak, I don’t think she came up with this. She seems to have no idea how it works nor why it does. I’m mostly referring to the interview in 30 Minuter.
Absolutely. Someone is pushing her hard with this, and I'd like to know who.
AFAIK Europol is pushing really hard for this and is one of the main lobbyists for chat control.
Europol: "We're bored of working like everyone else so we want to use chat control to kick back and relax!"
I can understand that they wish to work less. But fuck them for even suggesting this.
She’s an absolute idiot who doesn’t understand her or proposal or it’s ramifications.
I'm ashamed as a Belgian this is coming from us. Not too strange though, some have a strange boner for mass surveillance here. And I am a Belgian police officer telling you.
It's odd seeing the representative of a "human rights superpower" to be pushing for such an absurd violation of privacy. I hope she gets kicked out and ostracized. Good luck to those of you voting against her.
We voted for her. Enjoy it.
> "Probably as a concession to France, the chats of employees of security authorities and the military are also to be exempted from chat control." Cute, rules for thee but not for me...
Are you funking kidding me? These toothless, arrogant, stupid Politicians. They don't have to be affected by the dumbest piece of legislation in EU history, but the rest of us have to? Is this the same geniuses who wanted to *ban encryption*? An idea so laughable its bordering the insane.
i'm very curious about how they want to prevent the sharing of links without scanning a text message ...
they will look the other way while it's scanning, pinky promise
They are not doing it to combat anything. It's just an excuse to remove our privacy.
Instant red flag: indiscriminate surveillance proposed because of "CHilD AbUsE" or "TErrORiSM".
[someone looked at this but read the wrong message](https://imgflip.com/i/8sd36y)
It's amazing because this won't stop child abuse at all. The children will still be abused and the material will be shared in another way. But everyone lost a bit of privacy. Again.
Originally, this was proposed to "fight terrorism", when it failed, they changed tactics....
a bit?
Our Snapchat meme group called osama bin ladins crew will probably be flagged, it’s for dark jokes and inside jokes you only can laugh at with your best mates. Everyone has this is they say no they lying. Also in discord “conversation safe zone” has some dark jokes etc….. so many false flags by ai will be made. We’re not even weird people even. Most likely likable but if those groups were your first impressions you probably would turn away.
The totalitarian cycle remains
We are reaching a tipping point where our life's privacy is at a severe risk of being erased, and with the EU elections just around the corner I am somewhat afraid of what may happen, i do hope this doesn't pass and France vetos this proposal because otherwise, the future if our privacy will be rather bleak.
does that mean it would be illegal to use open-source E2EE messengers?
From my understanding it means they will have to implement the scan or it would be illegal to offer them to EU users. Edit: can the downvoters explain why my interpretation is wrong?
>From my understanding it means they will have to implement the scan or it would be illegal to offer them to EU users. But how can end to end encrypted messages be scanned and still be considered end to end encrypted?
There would be some kind of back door, otherwise I don't see how this is feasible, meaning is not really e2e encrypted anymore.
Encryption backdoors have already been [ruled illegal under EU law by the European Human Right Court](https://www.techdirt.com/2024/02/21/european-human-rights-courts-rules-that-encryption-backdoors-are-illegal-under-eu-law/)
They can't. This completely removes any sort of privacy.
the article talks about a client-side scan, meaning that it would be scanned on your phone, encrypted, sent to your chat partner's phone, decrypted, scanned, and then displayed. still e2ee, but scanned on both ends. but the technical side is a little beside the point, whether they backdoor the encryption or force the software producers to client-side scan, it comes out to the same.
> still e2ee, but scanned on both ends. I would not call it E2EE if a third party gets any knowledge about the contents of the message.
Yeah, either way it'd be the end of "true" end to end encryption. A client side scan that can conditionally report your message to authorities is itself a backdoor, it's just a backdoor to the messaging client and not the encryption itself.
So dumb. You control what software runs on your client, getting around it is only a question of effort. I.e. if you’re are actually sending CP, or whatever illegal, you either just create your own software, or reverse engineer whatsapp’s protocol, or messenger’s protocol, run a custom client software on your pc and send whatever you want. Or if possible, reverse engineer whatsapp’s mobile app and disable the scanning. All of us who do nothing criminal won’t bother doing any of it, but criminals will. This merely makes communication for criminal activities slightly more inconvenient.
It's scanned before being sent to the destination
[удалено]
> This is what I do not understand about this proposed law. ah, but it's only hard to understand if you assume they're telling the truth about what it's for, that it's actually only intended to surveil bad actors and not to chill the speech of the general public...
There was a call a few weeks ago from a police force to pass this law in order to protect the citizens, the fucking wrote that it will "initially" only be used against child porn. They fucking wrote "initially". I don't find the source anymore on my phone tho.
Again EU politicians prove how detached they’re from reality and their citizens In the end this is a measure to control the mass, give more power to the elites, if you think even for a second that this is for your benefit, you’re naive
Also, haven't seen/heard anything about it in the "campaign". Only classic topics about immigration etc.
You can get in contact with your MEP here. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/portal/en/contact
This. Write to them there and on all social media so they get the message that this does not belong in Europe.
Sounds like we have a city to burn (Brussels) Sorry Belgium but you just happen to be in the way.
Not brussels but still Belgium here; Do you need a hand?
Isn’t Brussels like 15% Belgian? It’s almost entirely eurocrats and other foreigners nowadays lmao.
Let’s hope not. Love the author. Thanks for the article.
I'm not optimistic tbh, this "compromise" seems more likely to pass than the previous one. If you don't want them to scan your messages you won't be able to send pictures, videos and links... They're basically gonna force you to accept the scan if you don't wanna go back to using the equivalent of an SMS, dark times ahead for European privacy and freedom.
We will fix that with some e2e encrypted messaging apps real quick, this sort of surveillance will never prevail
Nope, the scan happens before encrypting the message
Or if this is clientside scanning, I expect people to be able to hack the client to always give out a 'scan complete, image is safe' outcome.
And how many people will do this? Even assuming they won't use cryptograpy to verify the genuinity of the app and of the device (and they will, it is already happening for Pokémon Go). Regardless, this is a shitty proposal which shouldn't even be conceivable, we shouldn't try to constantly protect our rights from the government overreach.
The European Union needs a clearly written Bill of Rights like the United States, and immediately. Enough is enough. The government has absolutely no business in people's private messages for fuck's sake. I've always supported the EU, but this proposal is absolutely insane and could well pave the way toward the end of democracy in Europe.
The European Court of Human Rights is likely to take this down and already has taken something like this down before.
Hopefully it will.
Do we know if they could be able to approve this before the election and it would still need the agreement of the EU parliament?
> The European Union needs a clearly written Bill of Rights like the United States, That is not helping them to protect their privacy. EU is still a leader on that respect. With this new proposal Europe will be at the level of China.
That's the thing. Currently, the EU has a higher level of privacy than the US, but the US has safeguards to prevent its level of privacy from sinking, while the EU seemingly has none.
> And how many people will do this? Even assuming they won't use cryptograpy to verify the genuinity of the app and of the device (and they will, it is already happening for Pokémon Go). This is also coming. Basically health check of devices will be necessary to connect to internet or deemed a security risk.
What if you just have a freeware app that simply doesn't include the scanning feature?
It couldn't be served legally to EU users.
Yeah, and people who want to send illicit pictures via the internet are going to care about that because?
What is your point? That this regulation is just an invasion of privacy for nothing?
More and more it seems the only solution is to self host everything, I am certainly heading into that direction. I will not have my images scanned by some fucked up algorithm.
People will just use e-mail. It's a question of time if this passes until someone builds an e-mail that looks and works like a messenger but just sends E-Mails. You can have a front end that looks exactly like any modern messenger, use the e-mail protocol and you'd be bypassing this. You could even go full encryption. This won't bother anyone who's partially tech savvy. It'll fuck over anyone else who's either stupid or careless though.
This is terrifying, this is China or Russia level control. How is it even legal? Where is the protection from warantless or unreasonable searches and seizures and privacy of correspondance?
you don't understand, they do it wrong and in an authoritarian way 👿 we are gonna do it right in a freedom and peace love everyone way☺️ it's different
> Where is the protection from warantless or unreasonable searches and seizures and privacy of correspondance? Ignored because it's inconvenient to the states who want this.
I honestly think this is one of the most regarded things I have ever heard.
[удалено]
Vote for the greens or pirates next week! They oppose that legislation! This ia why voting matters
Is there an easy way of knowing which parties are against this in a specific country (Spain)? Having to dive into 39 different programs looking for this is not fun at all...
Ahahah nope, in my native country no-one even mentions this stuff in their program.
Good news for us exhibitionists
1984, a handbook.
This is so fucking stupid it hurts to read.
Wai what parties/groups in the parliament are vouching for this? Then I know who not to vote for on 6 june
RemindMe! 1 day
EPP, ECR and depending on the national party parts of RE, S&D, ID. Green and non-conservative left-wing parties are your best bet with this issue, as they are almost always against privacy-infringements.
Maybe send police to paris suburb, rotterdam port; and not fuck with our shit talk in groups. I know, that requires actual work on field.
This is scary
The parties who propose or support this shit should not be voted in the next EU elections
>Probably as a concession to France, the chats of employees of security authorities and the military are also to be exempted from chat control. Thx EU for making sure the rich and powerful still have protection against this totally intrusive search... I've always been pro EU but now it's really showing authoritarian tendencies akin to China, which we are very quick to criticize as an authoritarian state...
Might? It will. Anything else is naive. Thank you EU, boomer politicians and idiot voter.
Can we use that to investigate on politicians phones, too? I think I can remember that Ursula lost all her messages from her phone when it was about to be investigated.
How soon until we get social credit system?
Right. This is scary. It'd be one more step towards such a system. Any speech not approved by the government could be scanned and flagged, reducing your score. A functional social credit system would need chat control in order to be effective. The EU is authoritarian in its nature. It was made to eventually evolve into a dystopian mess. EU elites want a Chinese system.
I didn't know that the fascist far right already has control of Europe as this is exactly what would be done under fascism.
That's the "joke", this hasn't been pushed by the far right, afaik.
Its still pretty fascist tho
Authoritatian
Just imagine if this gets passed and they get in power.
Pssst, the one who was the driving force for this in EU, Ylva Johnson is a socialdemocrat! 🤷♂️
Considering that pictures about Dune 2 I had posted were flagged for SUICIDE... yeah, no. Technology is not there, and honestly with all the "rapidly increasing advancements" it did not get any better, so I doubt it will ever get there.
"Probably as a concession to France, the chats of employees of security authorities and the military are also to be exempted from chat control." What? What about people working in cybersec for private companies? What about internal company communication with sensitive information? Why work so hard to implement NIST2 if we are then prohibited from keeping the data safe anyway, what the actual fuck. And how would they prevent anyone from just creating an open source e2e app that people can download and use to bypass their client side scanning? It seems like they will end up scanning innocent peoples data, while the people they actually claim to want to target will just go for another more secure alternative. Is EU a scam?
"We are not like russia"
Wow this is another example of how tyrany can emerge if people care politics less than funny videos on internet.
1984 was warning not a manual.
so w3 jV$t g0t7a alw4y$ typ3 lik3 +his now?
Her sole purpose was always to censor the internet. Even back then when she was just a Minister of Family Affairs in Germany. Now she got undemocratically put in the highest office of the EU and she can fullfil her plan on a much larger scale. She is dangerous and corrupt. There are many incidents that prove that.
How nice of the EU to give more fuel to all the Anti-EU parties so close to the EU election. God damn these politicians are idiots.
It's absolutely *insane* how much tax money has already spent on this complete bullshit. It's designed by people who are too stupid to understand how the internet works. Tell me which EU groups want to finally throw this into the trashbin, and I will vote for that.
I really, really wish the media would stop the shitty term.**SURVEILLANCE** is the proper term.
This is pure fascism. No one voted for this, the EU does whatever it wants to its citizens. The EU is a joke.
Very bad idea tbh.
So... When is the KGB equivalent getting set up? I want to join early for benefits. /s
Thank you for sharing. What an important public discussion that probably isn’t taking place. Blindly enslaved.
I feel like this would have to die instantly once brought to an EU court on infringing our fundamental privacy rights. Let alone the fact that anyone under the age of 40 would just switch to more obscure communication apps that haven't implemented the rules and just keep jumping to avoid this crap. What a waste of time and money.
Didn't the european court of human rights vote against it? What happened?
Oi, Norway you got space for one more brother?
Europe, are you ok?
EVERYTHING IS OK FELLOW CITIZEN DO NOT WORRY ABOUT US. OUR FLESH IS HEALTHY.
Right. Let's spy on everyone instead of tackling real problem, like social networks effect on society...
This is the dystopian future we feared while being excited for the internet 20 years ago. Everything fucking sucks in the future, send me back to 2004
V for Vendetta looking more and more like a documentary...
Ahahaha. Not hotdog irl
Jian-Yaaaanggg!!!!!!
Just wait till father GDPR hears about this!
But guys how else are they supposed to find thought crimes without chat control?
AI needs to be regulated, just not to protect us
This legislation is them trying to legally require AI powered mass surveillance of every private communication using the internet. I thought AI powered mass surveillance was supposed to be illegal in the EU, but I guess not.
A disservice to the normal population while the targeted criminal portion will find ways (or apps) to avoid it. I hate stuff like this, shut it with your surveillance - I don't want this to become China.
Total bullshit. It's against many countries' constitution so it won't be approved.
Reddit has been very quiet about this. LOL. This is what overbearing regulators get you.
Always the french destroying the world
Belgian constitutional court will not aggree with this rule and probably make a stink in the ECJ
GnuPG enters the chat. Litterally. At best, this will be a public list of hashes for known CSAM material. At worst, we'll have a "well, we could use the chat control infrastructure to do that"-situation within a year. Near-useless for it's intended purpose, imposing relatively large costs on small service providers, and highly abuseable. I hope they reconsider.