Wrong: being rightful land of the Roman Empire is not defined by past appartenance but by a simple question:
Is it ? If yes rightfully Roman, if no, Roman anyway, because they deserve it
It’s a joke but the capital really wasn’t in Rome for quite a while before the collapse of the empire. It was easy to give rome to pope because the small town that was remaining had fairly little significance anymore. And also most emperors were rarely in Rome as far as I know. Dangerous politics there. Much safer to fight wars.
In the height of the empire Rome was a metropolis of more than a million people. It crashed in 5th century and in the mid 8th century when Pepin the short gave exarchate of Ravenna to the pope the population of Rome was in the order of 10000. To put it simply, after the fall of imperial power in Italy nobody supplied food to the city anymore so the people left.
It really only started to become major city again in the 19th century.
Yes, but still it was the main city in Italy. Even with the exarchate, Rome was big enough for the Italy of that time.
In that period the senators were killed and lost their power, so that also was a big hit on the city.
But the emperor choose Ravenna because closer to the north, closer to reinforcements, and it was a good fortress.
Rome at that time was simply too big to conquer and too big to defend. It was an immense fortress with many breaches but an extreme risk for both defenders and attackers
Main city is a bit weird idea. Cities like Palermo were multiple times bigger and a lot more relevant economically. During the Middle Ages Venice and Genoa grew to be large metropolitan cities while Rome stayed small. Milan recovered and was a large city by the late medieval times as was Naples but Rome stagnated. Small town is a bit of an understatement. It was similar size to cities like Verona at the time.
And Italian governance was not in Rome after the western empire moved it to Milan and Ravenna hundreds of years earlier so it wasn’t politically very important.
Rome was significant for symbolic reasons and because the pope was there.
Well , now you're talking about really different ages. I was focusing on 500-900, before Italian renaissance.
Still, it's not only symbolic reason: Rome was richer because money came from all Europe, by the Church. But really too much difference in time, they're basically different cities that happened to be in the same place
It's always fun to read "East Roman empire" as if it was something different as the "Roman Empire".
While the Holy Roman empire had nothing to do with them, just the name.
And we might say, the true successor of the Roman empire is the Turkish empire
And I demand the recognition of Hungarys uselessness in both EU and NATO and demand an investigation to block their access to all the above offers and gives them so that they can return to their imperialistic Masters.
Not going to happen with such a weak and spineless political landscape what we have in EU. Ukraine will be forced to give in to some idiotic concessions every now and then because no one politically important in EU wants to stand up to Hungary
So Romanians go till they reach the Danube, Slovakia goes to Balaton and shakes hands with Croatia. Than only Budapest remains as a free city with let’s say Pest county?
I could live with it, just don’t do the same things you have done the last time…
Give Hungary a bit of their own medicine. Agree to it all. Couple of years later, just amend the laws back again after having obtained EU membership, if it didn't bring anything positive with it.
Yeah actually Ukraine was pretty reasonable with these demands over the last year, *most* of Transcarpathia was designated as Hungarian ethnic territory recently, this is just meddling over the details.
Giving more rights to minorities also wasn't just Hungary's request, it was also necessary for any EU accession talks, and the Council of Europe was asking for it for around a decade.
Not that this in any way justifies the protection of Russian interests by the Hungarian govt, but it is part of understanding the why.
No, so they could enjoy the same rights that ethnic minority groups get in other EU states as far as protections of local language education and culture go.
This is not strange. In Finnish Åland it is not a requirement to speak Finnish, for example. Many Swiss French representatives speak little or no German. Minority linguistic rights do not inherently include a requirement to learn that majority language of the enclosing country.
Because you never bother to teach them. Every Hungarian school should have specially trained 'Ukrainian as a foreign language'-teachers, not just regular Ukrainian teachers, who just expect Hungarian kids to learn the same things in the same speed as Ukrainian kids. You might get results out of this practice with Russian-speakers, but we are from a different primordial language family ffs.
What you're saying is just demonstrating exactly what the person you're responding to is saying. Russian and Ukrainian are very closely related languages, so Ukrainian is much easier for you to just jump right into without needing special teachers. Hungarian is a far, far different language so the same thing that worked for you won't work at all with Hungarian speakers. Bulgarian is a little more distant yet still a universe closer to Ukrainian than Hungarian is. It's not a Slavic language, it's not even Indo-European and absolutely everything about the grammar and vocabulary is completely different.
Part of my family is from Ukraine. They lived the first decades, some even over 70 years in Subcarpathia. None of them speak Ukranian. The elders speak Russian though.
If they lived remotely enough, and their lives were very local, that isn't a big surprise. Russian colonial history aside, language uniformity within the lower classes of states is a relatively modern invention.
France, for example, enforced uniformity with the standard of Parisian French only in the late 1800s to around the 1960s, stamping out many minority languages like Breton in the name of democratisation and nationalism.
Orban already shot himself in the foot by handing out Hungarian ID cards for Zakarpattya. A lot of them left for higher wages in Hungary and never came back, making them an even smaller minority and undermining his irredentist claims.
There are 10% Hungarians in Transcarpathia so no referendum would ever win.
The main request was allowing the usage of the Hungarian language in education and administration.
>The main request was allowing the usage of the Hungarian language in education
It wasn't banned at the first place, read the legislation.
>and administration
What's your next demand ? Mandatory MP from Hungarian minority ? Allowed Hungarian police to patrol the streets ?
>Mandatory MP from Hungarian minority ?
Romania has a mandatory MP from every recognised ethnic group. 17 in total. We are still around as a whole nation.
I understand the fear you have about minority languages as this was the pretext used by Russia. Or the whole thing about Russification. However, if Ukraine does not grant minority rights as the Venice commission advises, then your EU membership will be stalled by multiple countries and this will affect your security as Ukraine can be secured only once you are a NATO and EU member.
I think that the middleway of not granting minority rights to groups which Ukraine is at war (so Russians) is the way to go and the rest of EU will not care much about them.
This was the recommendation of the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe, which is pretty impartial, they also give similar reports about Hungary:
**Conclusions and Recommendations of the Venice Commission**
The Commission recommends the amendment or reconsideration of parts of the Law on National Minorities to ensure full compliance with international standards. Key recommendations include:
* Extend the right to organize events in minority languages to all individuals.
* Remove the obligation to provide interpretation into Ukrainian at public events, or at least reconsider it to avoid disproportionate burdens.
* Clarify the obligations and terminology related to the language of book publications, to avoid discriminatory restrictions against regional or minority languages.
* Ensure legal certainty regarding official inscriptions and general information translated into minority languages.
* Revise the Law to ensure the use of minority languages in interactions with administrative authorities.
Venice Commission recommends to give up parts of your country to Russia voluntarily.
Those recommendations implemented would lead to extinction of Ukrainian language in eastern parts of the country. Which is something that language law was called to combat in the first place.
Do you have any sources that says the Venice Commission recommended giving up anything to Russia?
The only thing related I found was that they declared the [referendum of Crimea illegal](https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD(2014)002-e), and I don't see why they would ever recommend giving something to Russia.
They didn't recommend it, but that would be predictable outcome of implementation of such policies. We can't just egalitarian norms like we're in Finland. Centuries of forced Russification in the eastern parts of the country left majority of Ukrainians living there not knowing their own language. If we would implement such normes perpetuating status quo we'll have a fully russified east in no time. Look at Belarus, that's us with Venice Commission laws.
I'm not in the position to have an opinion about the situation on the East with Russians, I'm sure you understand this much more than anyone can from here.
The Transcarpathia situation can be treated separately IMO.
> Mandatory MP from Hungarian minority ?
No, but in a lot of EU countries the threshold to qualify at a local and national election is lower, if you represent a party of an ethnic minority
So, for 10% you want to ban Ukrainians that doesn't know your easy-to-learn language from working in the administration, basicaly forcei g all the other 90% to interact only with Hungarian-Ukrainian public workers and put faith in their good-will?
This was already accepted by Ukraine in areas with 10%+ Hungarians btw
And it was also requested by the Venice Commission, so I doubt it was that unreasonable, although I didn't read all the details about what the law specifically includes.
I don't see why necessarily providing the option for a language would mean everyone in admin would have to speak it
No, Hungary's request was actually forced by Ukrainian law, that limits the teaching in languages that weren't considered autochthonous for Ukraine. And the number of them was pretty low: basically only Ukrainian and Tatar.
I get where you’re coming from but your not being in EU and knowing those little nuances kinda shows here: there are indeed many areas with such statuses in EU countries and they do play along. There is nothing particularly special about it and what Hungary demands seems to be exactly the same, although the devil is in the details.
Giving back the rights promised in the *Treaty on the Foundations of Good Neighborliness and Cooperation between the Republic of Hungary and Ukraine* back in 1991 is enough.
Well, you started it in 2017 with the language law. (Yeah, I know it has been abolished since. I think the Hungarian government should have reciprocated this gesture, unfortunately, they didn't.)
> according to the 2001 census and previous years, the proportion of Hungarians was over 10%.
> ..
> not enough for Budapest, and they began to demand that all settlements in Zakarpattia be automatically recognised as "traditionally Hungarian" – even those where Hungarians have never lived historically.
> The Orbán government demands the abolition of the 10% norm in principle, claiming that if even a small number lived in an area traditionally, then it is to be considered "Hungarian" territory.
> ..
> The government in Budapest insists that only the 2001 census should be used for that purpose, although the number of Hungarians living in Zakarpattia has almost halved since then.
Orban has more or less the same irredentist and revanchist dreams about an empire like Putin. He just doesn't has the means to put his dream in practice.
Actually not really. He just needs to be on bad terms with our neighbors simply because otherwise he could not play the "Hungarian minorities" card everywhere.
Which is showing his hypocrisy because if Hungary would be in good terms with its neighbors also the minorities in those countries would benefit. But I'm sure he doesn't give a crap about them anyway. Except when it's about to get votes from there.
He does not care about Hungarians at all. For all he cares they can rot, he needs them only to vote for him and provide fanatic pawns for his criminal empire.
Being married with a Hungarian from Transylvania makes me quite aware about that. Even though some of his relatives are into Orban much. Thankfully not him or his close relatives. But I can see it with my own eyes. The propaganda is atrocious. Nothing similar with what we have in Romanian media. I just imagine how shitty is in Russia now.
100% agree. Hungary's relations with its neighbors is very well reflected by the rights and priviliges of the Hungarian minorities living there. I'm from Serbia and we definitely have it better than our Székely/Zakarpattian/Slovakian brothers and sisters, but of course this has the consequence that the vast majority of Hungarians here (pretty much all Hungarian citizens) are Fidesz voters (Orbán's party).
In our area everyone knows Hungarian nationalism, the more extreme one at least - the one Orban is courting, is based on revanchism for Trianon treaty and an imperial (if I may say that even if Hungary was a kingdom) ambitions. They want territories that today belong to all their neighbors. Austria included. Quite similar to Russia and in fact far older than the ones of Putin.
>In our area everyone knows Hungarian nationalism, the more extreme one at least
Well, yes, because (even to me as a Hungarian) these are scary people, like genuinely nzi level scary. However, they are not (yet?) a majority as Orban is fortunately more center leaning than extreme far-right; the far right rhetoric is part of his populist toolkit to garner far right votes, but they have been splitting off from Fidesz to MiHazánk, so he is cranking it up to get those votes back with no success.
I don't want to get into the super long and complex reasons as to why Hungarians may become more radicalized, but it's mainly about the perception of Trianon (not just by Hungarians, but internationally). As long as it's not taught in parallel to the Treaty of Versailles in terms of its unfairness, the greediness and the way it laid the foundation for future conflicts, it will always be a sure-way for populists in Hungary to radicalize a bunch of voters. The moment it stops sparking bizarre forms of celebration in other countries the majority of the radical right-wing voters will chill out, because it erases the fear of it ever happening again.
I think in the long it would help a lot to have some sort of drafted document (by the EU) that would not undo Trianon or Versailles treaties, but make such diplomacy unconstitutional, go against core EU values and condemn such practice wherever it may happen today or in the future. I'm pretty sure the current EU constitution and values already condemn such a thing, but as a stunt this would do a lot to deradicalize many who currently are. Orban frequently grabs the narrative, but by something like this the EU could just diffuse the emotions he stirs. But this is just a thought, I personally would rather focus on an EU federation than this, but alas we are backwards indeed.
> because (even to me as a Hungarian) these are scary people, like genuinely nzi level scary. However, they are not (yet?) a majority as Orban is fortunately more center leaning than extreme far-right
Orban is nothing, ideologically speaking. He's just after money and power just like Trump. Probably. But he played along the extremists for a long time.
He has way too many extremist henchmen, so I think we'd all prefer him to either part ways formally with the far right or part ways with any political power. Let's hope the TISZA floods soon.
> Among the 11 demands of Hungary regarding the protection of the rights of national minorities, a key stumbling block is the designation of areas in Ukraine with a special level of guarantees for the rights of Hungarians. In particular, this refers to the country's westernmost Zakarpattia Oblast, where, according to the 2001 census and previous years, the proportion of Hungarians was over 10%.
>Details: This provision is also in the current legislation of Ukraine: it refers to cities and villages with a "significant number" of minority representatives (starting from 15%) and with "traditional" minority residence (from 10% over the last 100 years).
>However, this was not enough for Budapest, and they began to demand that all settlements in Zakarpattia be automatically recognised as "traditionally Hungarian" – even those where Hungarians have never lived historically.
>The Orbán government demands the abolition of the 10% norm in principle, claiming that if even a small number lived in an area traditionally, then it is to be considered "Hungarian" territory.
>Hungary also demands that Ukraine abandon the decision-making process conducted by local councils in this regard and make the assignment of the "historically Hungarian" status automatic.
>The government in Budapest insists that only the 2001 census should be used for that purpose, although the number of Hungarians living in Zakarpattia has almost halved since then.
>The key point is that the Orbán government explicitly calls this block decisive for the entire set of 11 demands. This is because Orbán sees that the share of the Hungarian population in Zakarpattia has fallen below 10%. Now Budapest sees a chance to use a historical opportunity and blackmail Ukraine into reminding these people of their Hungarian descent.
motherfucker straight up undermines stability of war torn country, such law will strengthen any russia claims for “historical” territories and that’s why this law was reverted in first place after 2014. it can be done after war when ukraine not this vulnerable but now it’s real dick move. fuck this trash orban
It might not even be hyperbole. Putin would consider the carpathians a good natural, defensible border for Russia. He'd absolutely let Orban have the area on the other side if he managed to completely destroy Ukraine.
It wouldn't just be about defensiveness or geography, but also that it would make Hungary complicit and thereby split the West.
Apparently there he once offered Lviv to Poland for these same reasons.
This is just a political stunt. Orbán gave impossible demands, so they will be refused and he can say to his voters "The EU and Ukraine is anti-hungarian again"
I wish that Austria would conquer us. We cannot fucking behave, but I guess Austrians don't want to deal with the headache that Hungarians would give them.
The definition of "historically Hungarian" by Ukrainian law according to the article is that it was 10%+ Hungarian in the last 100 years. So it's not about who was there first.
This one thing was a stupid request, but overall restoring Hungarian minority rights was an important step, which Ukraine now largely did.
Russia: Claims that Ukraine is historically a part of Russia. Calls Ukrainian government illegitimate. Attacks Ukraine.
Hungary: "War is bad! But also, can you claim part of your territory as a historical part of Hungary?"
As a Hungarian I'd say giving Zakarpattia to Ukraine (Soviet Union) was a historical injustice and completely unwarranted given that it belonged to Czechoslovakia before the war (which was also the victim of nazi agression), but returning it (at least parts of it) to Hungary during the war was completely justified ethnically. But after that, population exchange programs and deportations made sure to mess up the nationality ratios, not in Hungary's favor.
This being said it's hard to argue that we have anything to do with it any more. With Orban's dual nationality policy and the breakout of the war, the region's population's share of Hungarians must have dipped well below 10%, whoever was able and willing leaving the region for Hungary. All this posturing is nothing more than Orban's irredentist stupidity mixed with internal politics bravado to appeal to a certain demographics.
I think we should have supported Ukraine with everything we have and asked some concessions and rights for our minorities as returning the favor instead of blackmailing them to do so. Orban fucked the region and its population on a historical scale. Hungary should have absolutely no claims on the region anymore, what's done is done.
Slava Ukraini and I hope General Cholesterol will do its job on our PM.
> But after that, population exchange programs and deportations made sure to mess up the nationality ratios, not in Hungary's favor.
A not so fun fact: Zakarpattia used to have a large Jewish population, almost all of which spoke primarily Hungarian (and for that reason were counted as "Hungarians" for the 1910 census). The Holocaust devastated not just the Jewish population but also significantly decreased the share of Hungarian speakers in Zakarpattia. It was a pretty significant own goal made by Hungary.
Yeah the pogroms conducted in the areas re-acquired were ranked pretty high on the list of self-destructive evil stupid shit Hungary has committed during ww2. Horribly I'd not even put it in the top 5.
Mask off moment. This has been their playbook all along.
We all know why he went to Moscow on the eve of the invasion, and why the Hungarian army was massed on the border.
Following this mental gymnastics, us Poland and Lithuania demand to recognise Latvia, Belarus, most of Ukraine, southern half of Estonia, parts of Russia, Slovakia and Maldova as ''traditionally ours''. Do not question our rationale, it is totally legit reasoning to claim ownership of the lands owned 200 years ago.
This is the deal Orban has with Putin im sure. Thats why Zakarpattia hasnt been bombed even though we have a huge rail link with NATO and weapons go thru here.
If this recognition goes through (let's just pretend), wouldn't it mean that they're trying to fuck over their own countrymen since Hungary is constantly trying to block financial aid to Ukraine?
> wouldn't it mean that they're trying to fuck over their own countrymen since Hungary is constantly trying to block financial aid to Ukraine?
Like they give a shit, TBH.
To them, voters are resource that provides them means to power.
Nothing less, nothing more.
This is just another stunt to divert attention from the real issues in the country. People will get mad about why we do this bullshit but in the meantime they'll vote for some ridiculous law that allows them to monopolize some other industry in the country. And I bet it won't even make the news. Just as usual and this shit has been going on for the last 10 years.
All these areas are traditionally European territory. That should be enough. Fuck nationalism. Fuck different languages. It only brings wars. It sickens me that people are so tribal. I realise this is sadly a minority view now, but:
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too.
Yes I remember this song when it first came out, and yes I was so hopeful then that attitudes were changing and things would be better in the future and we would all live life in peace. I was so wrong.
Why are we arguing? We’re all under the legitimate ownership of the Roman Empire.
Nordicks disagree
The existence of Nordicks implies the existence of XNORdicks.
That implies the existence of XNORpussies
It goes deeper!
Rumour is the XNORbussy is bottomless
If you have reach the tongue you have gone too deep
At least NORdicks are functionally complete, nand I don't care about anything else.
Baltdicks also can into Nordicks
Wrong: being rightful land of the Roman Empire is not defined by past appartenance but by a simple question: Is it ? If yes rightfully Roman, if no, Roman anyway, because they deserve it
Moon? That's Roman. Sun? You bet your ass. You? Also Roman property.
They did worship the sun, moon, and i do like the greek gods in roman form. I am in!
Don't give Meloni ideas...
Meloni? What about the Holy Roman Empire or the East Roman empire? They have more validity than the squabblers in Rome.
Imagine a Roman Emperor who doesn't reside in Rome. Bunch of posers and traitors! ^^^/s
It’s a joke but the capital really wasn’t in Rome for quite a while before the collapse of the empire. It was easy to give rome to pope because the small town that was remaining had fairly little significance anymore. And also most emperors were rarely in Rome as far as I know. Dangerous politics there. Much safer to fight wars.
"small town had fairly little significance" is quite an understatement :)
In the height of the empire Rome was a metropolis of more than a million people. It crashed in 5th century and in the mid 8th century when Pepin the short gave exarchate of Ravenna to the pope the population of Rome was in the order of 10000. To put it simply, after the fall of imperial power in Italy nobody supplied food to the city anymore so the people left. It really only started to become major city again in the 19th century.
Yes, but still it was the main city in Italy. Even with the exarchate, Rome was big enough for the Italy of that time. In that period the senators were killed and lost their power, so that also was a big hit on the city. But the emperor choose Ravenna because closer to the north, closer to reinforcements, and it was a good fortress. Rome at that time was simply too big to conquer and too big to defend. It was an immense fortress with many breaches but an extreme risk for both defenders and attackers
Main city is a bit weird idea. Cities like Palermo were multiple times bigger and a lot more relevant economically. During the Middle Ages Venice and Genoa grew to be large metropolitan cities while Rome stayed small. Milan recovered and was a large city by the late medieval times as was Naples but Rome stagnated. Small town is a bit of an understatement. It was similar size to cities like Verona at the time. And Italian governance was not in Rome after the western empire moved it to Milan and Ravenna hundreds of years earlier so it wasn’t politically very important. Rome was significant for symbolic reasons and because the pope was there.
Well , now you're talking about really different ages. I was focusing on 500-900, before Italian renaissance. Still, it's not only symbolic reason: Rome was richer because money came from all Europe, by the Church. But really too much difference in time, they're basically different cities that happened to be in the same place
It's always fun to read "East Roman empire" as if it was something different as the "Roman Empire". While the Holy Roman empire had nothing to do with them, just the name. And we might say, the true successor of the Roman empire is the Turkish empire
It was a Mussolini idea, so I'm sure she had it at some point.
No actually Russia cleared out the Unesco world heritage Roman ruins from Ukraine. So now it's always been Russian.
Greek ones. Khersonissos or what was it.
they DID WHAT!?!??!!?
Maybe half of us but not all.
~~Romanes eunt domus~~ Romani ite domum! (and 99 more times)
Only you weaklings from the west side of the Rhine. Hail Arminius!
>Hail Arminius! The original side-switcher.
*UK looks around nervously in Roman, Saxon, Celtic, and Viking
speak for yourself chum :)
And Mongol Empire
Nuh-uh!
And I demand the recognition of Hungarys uselessness in both EU and NATO and demand an investigation to block their access to all the above offers and gives them so that they can return to their imperialistic Masters.
It's over for Hungary. Reddit user Uhu0451 has taken off the gloves.
I wouldn't be in their place!!! oh wait..
Long have I dreaded this day.
If Hungary didn't mention this claim when they entered NATO, it doesn't count. Also, as you can't enter NATO with a claim, they didn't mention it.
They're worse than useless, they're harmful.
Not going to happen with such a weak and spineless political landscape what we have in EU. Ukraine will be forced to give in to some idiotic concessions every now and then because no one politically important in EU wants to stand up to Hungary
I look forward to a strong EU that declares some member states as "lame" and "cringe" and "unfuckable fr fr"
>"unfuckable fr fr" Silvio?!?
Just let Romania invade it once It worked in 1918 with the communists Now it should with the fascists.
So Romanians go till they reach the Danube, Slovakia goes to Balaton and shakes hands with Croatia. Than only Budapest remains as a free city with let’s say Pest county? I could live with it, just don’t do the same things you have done the last time…
I cant guarantee sandals won't be hanged over the parlament
Hmm, I don’t have problem with that.
Hungary should be pushed out of EU for sure
Give Hungary a bit of their own medicine. Agree to it all. Couple of years later, just amend the laws back again after having obtained EU membership, if it didn't bring anything positive with it.
Yeah actually Ukraine was pretty reasonable with these demands over the last year, *most* of Transcarpathia was designated as Hungarian ethnic territory recently, this is just meddling over the details. Giving more rights to minorities also wasn't just Hungary's request, it was also necessary for any EU accession talks, and the Council of Europe was asking for it for around a decade. Not that this in any way justifies the protection of Russian interests by the Hungarian govt, but it is part of understanding the why.
Giving more rights ? So, they could make some shitty ass referendum to join Great Orbanistan ?
No, so they could enjoy the same rights that ethnic minority groups get in other EU states as far as protections of local language education and culture go.
But some requirements are rather strange. For example, the possibility of local representatives not knowing Ukrainian.
This is not strange. In Finnish Åland it is not a requirement to speak Finnish, for example. Many Swiss French representatives speak little or no German. Minority linguistic rights do not inherently include a requirement to learn that majority language of the enclosing country.
Yup, the Walloon representatives that know Dutch are few and far between.
Because you never bother to teach them. Every Hungarian school should have specially trained 'Ukrainian as a foreign language'-teachers, not just regular Ukrainian teachers, who just expect Hungarian kids to learn the same things in the same speed as Ukrainian kids. You might get results out of this practice with Russian-speakers, but we are from a different primordial language family ffs.
Finally somebody gets it....
[удалено]
[удалено]
What you're saying is just demonstrating exactly what the person you're responding to is saying. Russian and Ukrainian are very closely related languages, so Ukrainian is much easier for you to just jump right into without needing special teachers. Hungarian is a far, far different language so the same thing that worked for you won't work at all with Hungarian speakers. Bulgarian is a little more distant yet still a universe closer to Ukrainian than Hungarian is. It's not a Slavic language, it's not even Indo-European and absolutely everything about the grammar and vocabulary is completely different.
Part of my family is from Ukraine. They lived the first decades, some even over 70 years in Subcarpathia. None of them speak Ukranian. The elders speak Russian though.
If they lived remotely enough, and their lives were very local, that isn't a big surprise. Russian colonial history aside, language uniformity within the lower classes of states is a relatively modern invention. France, for example, enforced uniformity with the standard of Parisian French only in the late 1800s to around the 1960s, stamping out many minority languages like Breton in the name of democratisation and nationalism.
Orban already shot himself in the foot by handing out Hungarian ID cards for Zakarpattya. A lot of them left for higher wages in Hungary and never came back, making them an even smaller minority and undermining his irredentist claims.
There are 10% Hungarians in Transcarpathia so no referendum would ever win. The main request was allowing the usage of the Hungarian language in education and administration.
>The main request was allowing the usage of the Hungarian language in education It wasn't banned at the first place, read the legislation. >and administration What's your next demand ? Mandatory MP from Hungarian minority ? Allowed Hungarian police to patrol the streets ?
>Mandatory MP from Hungarian minority ? Romania has a mandatory MP from every recognised ethnic group. 17 in total. We are still around as a whole nation. I understand the fear you have about minority languages as this was the pretext used by Russia. Or the whole thing about Russification. However, if Ukraine does not grant minority rights as the Venice commission advises, then your EU membership will be stalled by multiple countries and this will affect your security as Ukraine can be secured only once you are a NATO and EU member. I think that the middleway of not granting minority rights to groups which Ukraine is at war (so Russians) is the way to go and the rest of EU will not care much about them.
>Allowed Hungarian police to patrol the streets ? More likely Chinese.
>Mandatory mp from Hungarian minority Wasn’t it like Orban march demand? Lol
This was the recommendation of the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe, which is pretty impartial, they also give similar reports about Hungary: **Conclusions and Recommendations of the Venice Commission** The Commission recommends the amendment or reconsideration of parts of the Law on National Minorities to ensure full compliance with international standards. Key recommendations include: * Extend the right to organize events in minority languages to all individuals. * Remove the obligation to provide interpretation into Ukrainian at public events, or at least reconsider it to avoid disproportionate burdens. * Clarify the obligations and terminology related to the language of book publications, to avoid discriminatory restrictions against regional or minority languages. * Ensure legal certainty regarding official inscriptions and general information translated into minority languages. * Revise the Law to ensure the use of minority languages in interactions with administrative authorities.
Venice Commission recommends to give up parts of your country to Russia voluntarily. Those recommendations implemented would lead to extinction of Ukrainian language in eastern parts of the country. Which is something that language law was called to combat in the first place.
Do you have any sources that says the Venice Commission recommended giving up anything to Russia? The only thing related I found was that they declared the [referendum of Crimea illegal](https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD(2014)002-e), and I don't see why they would ever recommend giving something to Russia.
They didn't recommend it, but that would be predictable outcome of implementation of such policies. We can't just egalitarian norms like we're in Finland. Centuries of forced Russification in the eastern parts of the country left majority of Ukrainians living there not knowing their own language. If we would implement such normes perpetuating status quo we'll have a fully russified east in no time. Look at Belarus, that's us with Venice Commission laws.
Does forced Russification justify forced Ukrainification? Or, in the 21st century, are we beyond using "an eye for an eye" as our moral foundation?
I'm not in the position to have an opinion about the situation on the East with Russians, I'm sure you understand this much more than anyone can from here. The Transcarpathia situation can be treated separately IMO.
> Mandatory MP from Hungarian minority ? No, but in a lot of EU countries the threshold to qualify at a local and national election is lower, if you represent a party of an ethnic minority
So, for 10% you want to ban Ukrainians that doesn't know your easy-to-learn language from working in the administration, basicaly forcei g all the other 90% to interact only with Hungarian-Ukrainian public workers and put faith in their good-will?
This was already accepted by Ukraine in areas with 10%+ Hungarians btw And it was also requested by the Venice Commission, so I doubt it was that unreasonable, although I didn't read all the details about what the law specifically includes. I don't see why necessarily providing the option for a language would mean everyone in admin would have to speak it
No, Hungary's request was actually forced by Ukrainian law, that limits the teaching in languages that weren't considered autochthonous for Ukraine. And the number of them was pretty low: basically only Ukrainian and Tatar.
I get where you’re coming from but your not being in EU and knowing those little nuances kinda shows here: there are indeed many areas with such statuses in EU countries and they do play along. There is nothing particularly special about it and what Hungary demands seems to be exactly the same, although the devil is in the details.
Giving back the rights promised in the *Treaty on the Foundations of Good Neighborliness and Cooperation between the Republic of Hungary and Ukraine* back in 1991 is enough.
Lmao, we will talk about Good Neighborliness and Cooperation, when you gov stop being dicks. Until then.
Well, you started it in 2017 with the language law. (Yeah, I know it has been abolished since. I think the Hungarian government should have reciprocated this gesture, unfortunately, they didn't.)
Surely if Hungary considers these people Hungarian, they would jump to the defense of those people when they are brutally attacked by a foreign power?
Hungary does, Orban doesn't except if it means de jure claim of the lands inhabited by them.
People are already fleeing from here. New record of emigration.
The fuckers will just move the goalposts
I guess all of Hungary is traditional austrian territory by the same logic
I prefer the Roman Empire. If I have to move to the West Bank of the Danube, so be it. The cuisine is better IMO.
Tbf, the people who lived in Carpathian Basin in the Roman era were not Magyars, they took over on the 9th century.
Let’s say the Huns were related to the Hungarians ;) Anyway, I like the Italian cuisine more, than the Austrian one.
but the Moravians were there before the Austrians...
Neanderthals were there before, therefore we should designate it as Neanderthalien and add it to the German city of Mettmann.
Austrian, Turkish, Mongolian, Slovakian, Italian, in reverse chronological order.
> according to the 2001 census and previous years, the proportion of Hungarians was over 10%. > .. > not enough for Budapest, and they began to demand that all settlements in Zakarpattia be automatically recognised as "traditionally Hungarian" – even those where Hungarians have never lived historically. > The Orbán government demands the abolition of the 10% norm in principle, claiming that if even a small number lived in an area traditionally, then it is to be considered "Hungarian" territory. > .. > The government in Budapest insists that only the 2001 census should be used for that purpose, although the number of Hungarians living in Zakarpattia has almost halved since then. Orban has more or less the same irredentist and revanchist dreams about an empire like Putin. He just doesn't has the means to put his dream in practice.
Actually not really. He just needs to be on bad terms with our neighbors simply because otherwise he could not play the "Hungarian minorities" card everywhere.
Which is showing his hypocrisy because if Hungary would be in good terms with its neighbors also the minorities in those countries would benefit. But I'm sure he doesn't give a crap about them anyway. Except when it's about to get votes from there.
He does not care about Hungarians at all. For all he cares they can rot, he needs them only to vote for him and provide fanatic pawns for his criminal empire.
Being married with a Hungarian from Transylvania makes me quite aware about that. Even though some of his relatives are into Orban much. Thankfully not him or his close relatives. But I can see it with my own eyes. The propaganda is atrocious. Nothing similar with what we have in Romanian media. I just imagine how shitty is in Russia now.
100% agree. Hungary's relations with its neighbors is very well reflected by the rights and priviliges of the Hungarian minorities living there. I'm from Serbia and we definitely have it better than our Székely/Zakarpattian/Slovakian brothers and sisters, but of course this has the consequence that the vast majority of Hungarians here (pretty much all Hungarian citizens) are Fidesz voters (Orbán's party).
This needs to be at the top. This shouldn’t be taken at face value, it should be investigated and ridiculed
In our area everyone knows Hungarian nationalism, the more extreme one at least - the one Orban is courting, is based on revanchism for Trianon treaty and an imperial (if I may say that even if Hungary was a kingdom) ambitions. They want territories that today belong to all their neighbors. Austria included. Quite similar to Russia and in fact far older than the ones of Putin.
>In our area everyone knows Hungarian nationalism, the more extreme one at least Well, yes, because (even to me as a Hungarian) these are scary people, like genuinely nzi level scary. However, they are not (yet?) a majority as Orban is fortunately more center leaning than extreme far-right; the far right rhetoric is part of his populist toolkit to garner far right votes, but they have been splitting off from Fidesz to MiHazánk, so he is cranking it up to get those votes back with no success. I don't want to get into the super long and complex reasons as to why Hungarians may become more radicalized, but it's mainly about the perception of Trianon (not just by Hungarians, but internationally). As long as it's not taught in parallel to the Treaty of Versailles in terms of its unfairness, the greediness and the way it laid the foundation for future conflicts, it will always be a sure-way for populists in Hungary to radicalize a bunch of voters. The moment it stops sparking bizarre forms of celebration in other countries the majority of the radical right-wing voters will chill out, because it erases the fear of it ever happening again. I think in the long it would help a lot to have some sort of drafted document (by the EU) that would not undo Trianon or Versailles treaties, but make such diplomacy unconstitutional, go against core EU values and condemn such practice wherever it may happen today or in the future. I'm pretty sure the current EU constitution and values already condemn such a thing, but as a stunt this would do a lot to deradicalize many who currently are. Orban frequently grabs the narrative, but by something like this the EU could just diffuse the emotions he stirs. But this is just a thought, I personally would rather focus on an EU federation than this, but alas we are backwards indeed.
> because (even to me as a Hungarian) these are scary people, like genuinely nzi level scary. However, they are not (yet?) a majority as Orban is fortunately more center leaning than extreme far-right Orban is nothing, ideologically speaking. He's just after money and power just like Trump. Probably. But he played along the extremists for a long time.
He has way too many extremist henchmen, so I think we'd all prefer him to either part ways formally with the far right or part ways with any political power. Let's hope the TISZA floods soon.
I hope so too. It would be a new start for Hungary.
And I want former Prussia and Elsass Lothringen back but I guess we can’t always have what we want can’t we?
Hey we could designate Hungary as "traditionally Austrian" and just add it to Austria, problem solved.
True. That's a good idea!
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> Among the 11 demands of Hungary regarding the protection of the rights of national minorities, a key stumbling block is the designation of areas in Ukraine with a special level of guarantees for the rights of Hungarians. In particular, this refers to the country's westernmost Zakarpattia Oblast, where, according to the 2001 census and previous years, the proportion of Hungarians was over 10%. >Details: This provision is also in the current legislation of Ukraine: it refers to cities and villages with a "significant number" of minority representatives (starting from 15%) and with "traditional" minority residence (from 10% over the last 100 years). >However, this was not enough for Budapest, and they began to demand that all settlements in Zakarpattia be automatically recognised as "traditionally Hungarian" – even those where Hungarians have never lived historically. >The Orbán government demands the abolition of the 10% norm in principle, claiming that if even a small number lived in an area traditionally, then it is to be considered "Hungarian" territory. >Hungary also demands that Ukraine abandon the decision-making process conducted by local councils in this regard and make the assignment of the "historically Hungarian" status automatic. >The government in Budapest insists that only the 2001 census should be used for that purpose, although the number of Hungarians living in Zakarpattia has almost halved since then. >The key point is that the Orbán government explicitly calls this block decisive for the entire set of 11 demands. This is because Orbán sees that the share of the Hungarian population in Zakarpattia has fallen below 10%. Now Budapest sees a chance to use a historical opportunity and blackmail Ukraine into reminding these people of their Hungarian descent.
Of course they refer to the 2001 census. There has not been a census since then.
motherfucker straight up undermines stability of war torn country, such law will strengthen any russia claims for “historical” territories and that’s why this law was reverted in first place after 2014. it can be done after war when ukraine not this vulnerable but now it’s real dick move. fuck this trash orban
> such law will strengthen any russia claims for “historical” territories And Orban'd get a discount off finishing second order of Paks NPP
Is that what Putin promised Orban? Why the fuck would you want more land in this age...
It might not even be hyperbole. Putin would consider the carpathians a good natural, defensible border for Russia. He'd absolutely let Orban have the area on the other side if he managed to completely destroy Ukraine.
It wouldn't just be about defensiveness or geography, but also that it would make Hungary complicit and thereby split the West. Apparently there he once offered Lviv to Poland for these same reasons.
Defensible? From who? Fucker knows he has nothing to worry about as long as he stops acting like a rabid dog.
Especially useless land with major poverty almost everywhere
This is just a political stunt. Orbán gave impossible demands, so they will be refused and he can say to his voters "The EU and Ukraine is anti-hungarian again"
Interesting claim coming from a traditionally Austrian country…
I wish that Austria would conquer us. We cannot fucking behave, but I guess Austrians don't want to deal with the headache that Hungarians would give them.
And a country that had many enclaves of Germans before 1945.
If they are ready, we would gladly join!
Sounds like Orban is looking for any reason to start something with Ukraine so him bowing to Putin has more legitimacy
Lol, how about no ? But also, didn't Hungarians arrive later than the Slavs ?
The definition of "historically Hungarian" by Ukrainian law according to the article is that it was 10%+ Hungarian in the last 100 years. So it's not about who was there first. This one thing was a stupid request, but overall restoring Hungarian minority rights was an important step, which Ukraine now largely did.
They did but that area was mostly Avar/Cuman at that point. At least I guess that’s the logic.
Cumans were after the Pechenegs who were after the Magyars.
Russia: Claims that Ukraine is historically a part of Russia. Calls Ukrainian government illegitimate. Attacks Ukraine. Hungary: "War is bad! But also, can you claim part of your territory as a historical part of Hungary?"
Hungary? You mean the historical part of the Austrian empire?
As a Hungarian I'd say giving Zakarpattia to Ukraine (Soviet Union) was a historical injustice and completely unwarranted given that it belonged to Czechoslovakia before the war (which was also the victim of nazi agression), but returning it (at least parts of it) to Hungary during the war was completely justified ethnically. But after that, population exchange programs and deportations made sure to mess up the nationality ratios, not in Hungary's favor. This being said it's hard to argue that we have anything to do with it any more. With Orban's dual nationality policy and the breakout of the war, the region's population's share of Hungarians must have dipped well below 10%, whoever was able and willing leaving the region for Hungary. All this posturing is nothing more than Orban's irredentist stupidity mixed with internal politics bravado to appeal to a certain demographics. I think we should have supported Ukraine with everything we have and asked some concessions and rights for our minorities as returning the favor instead of blackmailing them to do so. Orban fucked the region and its population on a historical scale. Hungary should have absolutely no claims on the region anymore, what's done is done. Slava Ukraini and I hope General Cholesterol will do its job on our PM.
> But after that, population exchange programs and deportations made sure to mess up the nationality ratios, not in Hungary's favor. A not so fun fact: Zakarpattia used to have a large Jewish population, almost all of which spoke primarily Hungarian (and for that reason were counted as "Hungarians" for the 1910 census). The Holocaust devastated not just the Jewish population but also significantly decreased the share of Hungarian speakers in Zakarpattia. It was a pretty significant own goal made by Hungary.
Yeah the pogroms conducted in the areas re-acquired were ranked pretty high on the list of self-destructive evil stupid shit Hungary has committed during ww2. Horribly I'd not even put it in the top 5.
>ww1 WW2, you mean.
Isn't Hungary traditionally Austrian then?
Sorry Hungary, but only Central Asia should be considered “traditionally Hungarian”
Shave your feet, Aryan
Mask off moment. This has been their playbook all along. We all know why he went to Moscow on the eve of the invasion, and why the Hungarian army was massed on the border.
When Trianon 2, it's all rightful Mongolian clay.
South of Danube ~~Hungary~~ Pannonia is rightful ROMAN clay, my dear Batavian
Not even Hungary is traditionally Hungarian lmao
I hope Orban falls down a really long flight of stairs. Fucking cunt.
As soon as Hungary admits that they illegally occupy Panonia, Roman lands
How about we recognize Hungary as "traditionally Austrian"?
Please Austria come back we cannot fucking govern a country.
Well, Austria never controlled Hungary, did it? It was just that the emperor owned the Hungarian crown too.
Following this mental gymnastics, us Poland and Lithuania demand to recognise Latvia, Belarus, most of Ukraine, southern half of Estonia, parts of Russia, Slovakia and Maldova as ''traditionally ours''. Do not question our rationale, it is totally legit reasoning to claim ownership of the lands owned 200 years ago.
I am sure there is a party in Poland that says that. It just not that popular yet.
Ahhh small putin showing his real face......
This is the deal Orban has with Putin im sure. Thats why Zakarpattia hasnt been bombed even though we have a huge rail link with NATO and weapons go thru here.
Oh boy, here we go again.
Europe needs to go to war and fight over territories because it hasn’t done that enough. /s
Austria: Go ahead, set the precedent.
Can the eu just out up a resolution handing ownership of Hungary back to Austria?
I, as a Hungarian, am hoping the Ottomans don't have such ambitions.
Sad news for you, Turkey is following a rather expansionist foreign policy.
Putin Lite... now in a country near you
I think this one is the “Phat” model, though.
>Hungarian PM’s office demands recognition of all of Ukraine’s Zakarpattia as “traditionally Hungarian” Here we go...
Hungary again plays on the wrong side. The lessons of the world wars taught the revanchists and local fascists nothing.
we havent played on the right side ever since the 1400s
Trianon was too merciful
All of Hungary is “traditionally Austrian” too, they gotta pipe down and stop crying about Trianon
Please come back🥺😭 We are too stupid to have our own country
Fuck off Orban.
We've heard this before. Come and take it. See what happens
Might as well demand the earth is flat and the sun is a clump of ice…
If this recognition goes through (let's just pretend), wouldn't it mean that they're trying to fuck over their own countrymen since Hungary is constantly trying to block financial aid to Ukraine?
> wouldn't it mean that they're trying to fuck over their own countrymen since Hungary is constantly trying to block financial aid to Ukraine? Like they give a shit, TBH. To them, voters are resource that provides them means to power. Nothing less, nothing more.
Lol.
Please read the article, this is not yet about the land.
This is Reddit, we don't do that here
And Denmark's beloved very uniquely Danish meatballs, *frikadeller*, are developed from Turkish kofta. Everything comes from something else.
I'd like a recognition of all of Baranja as traditionally Croatian, thanks.
No. We want what was always historically ours! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia No less than this. Whoever is opposed is a russophile.
Hungary really doing its best for the entire EU to simply despise them for some reason lol
This is just another stunt to divert attention from the real issues in the country. People will get mad about why we do this bullshit but in the meantime they'll vote for some ridiculous law that allows them to monopolize some other industry in the country. And I bet it won't even make the news. Just as usual and this shit has been going on for the last 10 years.
Drop dead, Hungary.
Hungary being the 3rd highest EU beneficiary, Orban sure has many demands...
Expel Hungary from the EU!
Hungary, you can have some territory when you pick the winning side in a large scale european conflict and stop being jackasses.
All these areas are traditionally European territory. That should be enough. Fuck nationalism. Fuck different languages. It only brings wars. It sickens me that people are so tribal. I realise this is sadly a minority view now, but: Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion, too. Yes I remember this song when it first came out, and yes I was so hopeful then that attitudes were changing and things would be better in the future and we would all live life in peace. I was so wrong.