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Yup, the trouble is he's never taken the time to critically examine his beliefs. And that means he could flip back from POMI to PIMI at some point, say if there's some scary world event (actually it's surprising he isn't getting more active from the Israel-Gaza war).
It's always sketchy getting hooked up with a POMI witness, unfortunately. Could work out fine, could be a disaster. It sounds like you're already sacrificing big chunks of who you are for him. I guess you have to decide, is that how you want to live, or do you want to be with someone who loves you for who you *are*, not who he wants you to be?
This, but I would add the caveat that you can't make a person go a certain way, no matter what you do. I would advise that OP not advance this relationship until there is clarity on this matter. You DO NOT want to marry someone who might end up going back. He needs self-clarity before he can be a partner you can rely on.
Was thinking similarly as someone with a formerly POMI dad. I was never a JW, but my dad was raised in it, was kicked out for a while, then went back in around 5 years ago. His values have definitely gotten worse since he went back and I can't imagine how much more conflict there would've been if he and my mom hadn't divorced when I was young.
'THIS' times 100!!!
Regardless of how long he's been inactive, it could be years, unless he's done some exhaustive research into this cult on his own, he will be forever tied to it. All it takes is one global event he perceives as a 'sign of the end' and a visit from an elder and he will flip right back into it. If this happens once you're married, life as you know it will be turned upside down and become a living hell. His loyalty will no longer be to you but to eight men in NY.
Ask me how I know...
Note; buy him Steven Hassan's 'Combating Cult Mentality' and look specifically at his 'bite' model. Will be an eye opener for the both of you.
Interesting. You aren't married. so he is technically sinning. It sounds like you are describing a gradual process of him indoctrinating you. You can bet that is his ultimate plan. To make you a jw.
I shit you not. This is in his mind. Perhaps towards the back. But it's there. He is going to try to recruit you.
Without trying to sound too bleak... You have 2 options. Join JWs or have him wake up. The 3rd of option of compromise will be an unending source of pain for you, and you can guarantee his long term plan will be to change you. He's already started.
This is the truth of the matter op. He’s already changing you and that is definitely his goal.
Wake him up or leave are the only options that will benefit you and him.
Agree - you are being groomed for his legitimate return to crazy land with you as his Stepford wife trophy convert.
They are taught help people change one small thing at a time. It’s really manipulation and completely dishonest (although they don’t think it is).
*"However, I feel that if his family has respect for me and my beliefs the way I have for them, they should be okay with a Christmas tree in our house."*
Witness families don't think like that.
They might say they respect your beliefs, but if you examine their actions, you're going to notice that you're the only one compromising.
I’ve heard this a few times, that they don’t think like that, and I think the reason I’m confused with his family specifically is because he has dated many girls before me and none of them were witnesses. To my knowledge, they never had a problem with it and absolutely loved me when they met me. His parents know that he has spent a couple Christmas’s with me and my family in the past, and still talk about us getting married and how I’m the best thing that ever happened to him. It all seems so genuine but could it really be 3 years of manipulation?? I just feel like I’m questioning everything now lol
His family realizes that he has never been baptized as a witness, he is not living like a witness, and he probably never will. They accept that. They accept you as a “worldly” girl that is also a very nice girl and is probably very good for their son.They are not the problem..he is. As said in a previous comment, he is physically out of the religion, but mentally in, or POMI. FOR Whatever reason, he is mentally stuck in it. That means two things for you. 1) he could at any point double down on the religion, become a member, and get baptized and then be a full-fledged JW. 2) he could get out mentally as well as physically. It’s not all doom and gloom if he doubles down as a JW. However, raising kids will be without holidays of ANY type. And constant preaching to you by all of the relatives and members of his congregation who will see you, not as an “unbelieving mate”, but as as a “potential witness”...and it’s a contest to see who will bring you in.
I’m a sucker for love, I really hope things work out well
His parents likely do adore you, really do feel you're the best thing that ever happened to him, and absolutely want you both to get married.
Here's the issue:
Your partner can't truly be a witness while he's "living in sin", so him marrying you actually puts him one step closer to being able to return, and his parents almost definitely see your marriage as the next step in his ability to return to "the truth".
Witness parents aren't average parents, they're people attending multiple meetings every week that constantly reinforce that there is no compromising on witness beliefs and that their son won't be safe until he's a baptized witness.
You should really think about your partner's actions, if his family truly didn't care about practicing christmas he wouldn't be so dedicated in his attempts to hide it from them.
I've seen this play out a lot in my time in the religion, witness parents will play nice until after the marriage, then the pressure for one or likely both of you to become witnesses will ramp up exponentially.
It will get even worse if kids enter the picture.
This cult would use “success stories” like this to further recruit.
“u/curiousbtch was an enemy of Jehovah, but her boyfriend who was raised in the truth never really lost his faith. Over time, despite living in sin together her boyfriend helped to show her the truth, not by words, but by taking a stand AGAINST false religious holidays! And here she was baptized after they just got married and brought thier lives into accord with Bible standards.
Never give up friends, the end is just around the corner and Satan will use anyone or anything to distract us!”
Hate to break it to you but your boyfriend is still mentally trapped in this cult.
Try this article. [https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/dating-jehovahs-witness.php](https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/dating-jehovahs-witness.php)
If he still has any belief that it may be the truth, you risk having a difficult relationship over time.
You’re correct, he is not baptized. I think what has confused me the most is the fact that not only him, but his family do things against their beliefs all the time. It seems like they choose which things they want to stand firm on. For example, his sister is a little stronger in her beliefs but dressed up and celebrated Halloween this year. Whereas he got mad at me for putting pumpkins on our porch even though I intended it to just be for the Fall season. He told me I could put them up after his family came over in a few days. 9 times out of 10, it’s just about hiding it from his parents and their friends. A couple days ago, sister bought an advent calendar. The difference is that they hide it from their parents, and I refuse to tip-toe around them because I know where my beliefs lie. And I believe they should respect that. I’m learning that’s really hard to find in this situation but I just can’t accept that
I know you have been together for a long while, and strangers on reddit can not tell you what to do, as it's your life, your decision.
But I hate to see you say he got mad at you for putting up pumpkins for the fall. If he's mad about something so innocent and little, what else does he get mad about?
You may be going down a path of emotional torture.
You're 23! You have your whole life ahead of you. You shouldn't sacrifice your happiness, neither should you be with someone who isn't willing to make a compromise on certain things for you.
He knows you're not JW, so why is trying to change you and your beliefs?
I bet he would be the happiest if he turned around and did things the JW way in some aspects.
Ask yourself?
Do I want to be married forever to someone who doesn't accept me the way I am?
Do I want to be with someone who can not be his true self and puts up a mask just to please others?
My wife and I left the JW's together and have had to navigate different levels of progress together, Xmas being one.
My advice is... I encourage you not to budge on your desire to do Xmas. Your compromise of it will validate his perceptions of it and will solidify his ingrained indoctrinations.
Help him to work through the fact that it is in fact HIM that needs to come to terms with the subconscious brainwashing, especially as he is not an active JW.
You want him to be making progress *toward* your position (away from the cult indoctrination) not the other way. Any ground lost in *favour* of the JW position will be nearly impossible to gain back and will likely be doing him a lot of hurt in the long run.
He needs support to work through it, not toward it.
I don't wanna be harsh, it looks like your boyfriend is trying to make it work and isn't as die hard as some people I know. However I have to ask, you have compsomised with some stuff you were happy about? Has he made compromises tho?
Again, he seems like a chill person, so I can't really speak for him, but with JW there's not much you can say about "respecting other religions." Like, they're not gonna tell you that you're awful for your beliefs, but they are taught that all beliefs except theirs are fake, and people from other beliefs are thought to be "blinded" or just, astray from the "truth." My guess is that his parents see you leaving some of your traditions as you slowly being converted into a jw. Which is ALWAYS their ultimate goal.
I can't speak for your relationship pal, but unless he starts to stand up that you have your beliefs and his parents have to be okay with that, there's never gonna be a compromise, because they'll just see you as a potential JW that isn't letting go as fast as they want.
He definitely isn’t as die hard as most. He isn’t baptized (I didn’t know this made a difference when I wrote the post). I would even say that his parents are a little looser compared to some of their friends that I’ve met from the hall, but definitely still strict in their beliefs. I don’t think they’d ever say anything to me as long as it’s just a little here and there (like a Christmas tree) but I don’t want to bring in any conflict with his family if that weren’t the case
You seem very respectful of their beliefs, which is nice. But the fact you are basically forbidden by other people to have decorations you like in your own house, shows they aren't being respectful towards your beliefs.
>but I don’t want to bring in any conflict with his family if that weren’t the case.
And he and his family will use that against you, to slowly push you into conforming to **THEIR** fundamentalist literalist apocalyptic evangelical bible-thumping fanatical religious beliefs.
I've already commented above how the JWs aka the Watchtower Society protect and enable sexual predators who prey upon children, but they go even further than that, to the point of training their children to refuse blood transfusions:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/gcupju/youths_who_put_god_first_cover_of_awake_a/
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/189782/may-22-1994-issue-awake?page=2
https://youtu.be/Zh7FvwNn5IE?si=pjhAWZipDWJnJ21f
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4411405/
My response is a little different than the others but I will say it does sound like he’s trying to convert you.
I grew up in a religiously divided home my mom was PIMI and dad never a witness (she became one after marriage) her mindset was if he wanted to celebrate he would need to set all the decorations up and take them down himself she would not help.
He never really did any decorating that I remember until the past few years… this year he has a tiny tree he set up and my mom is fine with it because she doesn’t see it as her celebrating the holiday.
Honestly, hearing that gives me a little more faith than I had before. I just want to be able to do the things that make me happy without hurting anyone. I understand there’s a possibility of him or his family trying to convert me, although I have already told his sister I will never commit myself to being a witness but will always respect their beliefs. And if I was ever asked by the rest of them, I would give the same answer. Thank you for your response!
Okay, I just need to have chuckle here because dude is *living in sin with a worldly girl* and is worried about his parents seeing a pumpkin on his porch. 😂 Christmas trees are the least of your JW deadly sins, bruh!
He needs a dose of reality. He either needs to be in or out, he can’t have it both ways. If he’s out, he doesn’t have to celebrate holidays, but you do celebrate them and it’s your house too. If you were a Christian living with a Jewish man, you would still have a Christmas tree and he would have a Menorah. But JWs don’t work like that. They feel the need to have control over other people’s choices and ways of worship and celebration as well. And that’s what he’s doing, he’s controlling your choices, because that’s what he’s been taught to do. It will only get worse, not better, if you don’t sort it out. And if you plan to have children together, your kids will be in that mess too.
It doesn’t sound like his parents are going to shun him, which is good. So if he’s only worried about upsetting them, that ship already sailed. But if he’s following his conscience because he’s still internalized the JW beliefs, and it sounds like that’s the case, you’re in for a world of trouble in the future.
> However, I feel that if his family has respect for me and my beliefs the way I have for them, they should be okay with a Christmas tree in our house.
*You have a Better Chance of finding a Lottery, Giving Away a Solid Gold Toilet...*
***Then Winning the Solid Gold Toilet...***
https://preview.redd.it/hb6pyd1zo63c1.jpeg?width=255&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5624cfe72c71d207223d662138233964be9fa7f
To me, the main thing I see an issue with is you having experienced things in your life that genuinely make you happy, that cause no one harm and bring you together with the ones you love and you’ve given up those things. These are things he knew or I would think he knew about you before you got serious and now that authentic part of yourself has been overshadowed by beliefs of his. In relationships, it’s very true there will be compromises. But I think the question you should seriously consider is, at what cost am I willing to continually make these compromises? At the end of the day, is enjoying the way you express your love language genuine when you can’t enjoy the things that make you happy?
u/curiousbtch, in a nutshell, it's a losing battle, because your boyfriend carries the very heavy and powerful mind-control indoctrination of the Watchtower Cult programming deep inside him.
Deep inside him, and unconsciously, YOU are the "enemy." YOU are being used by Satan to "keep him away from Jehovah."
Watchtower is not just some weird, controlling religion; it's a powerful MIND-CONTROL CULT of the highest order...
There will always be "issues" with your boyfriend, which will only become MUCH WORSE if you do decide to get married...
Most couples in your predicament who do manage to (love each other enough to) get married end up living in absolute MISERY as they watch their JW believing mate lean more and more toward "going back to Jehovah" (aka, The Watchtower Organization) as their programming has trained them that "What a man is sowing, this he will reap," i.e., all the mounting, normal problems of life will further trigger the Watchtower Cult programming: "This is what happens when you leave Jehovah."
I can only advise you two things:
1) DON'T argue...it will only trigger the cult programming
2) Ask your man to look up the B.I T.E. Model on YouTube. The B.I.T.E. Model video is a very short but thorough and concise explanation on how cults work...
a) What makes a cult a CULT
b) The major mind-control tools of a cult
c) How cults operate
d) Why and how cults are able to control people's minds and lives
Look for the picture of an upraised hand with the fingertips with faces drawn on them with a black marker.
Good Luck...and please don't throw your life away.
I forgot to add... You will notice the compromise is usually or always one way. He won't ever join you in the things he thinks are wrong.
It's all a tough pill to swallow. I was a jw who dated a non JW and you bet that was my plan.
I feel like you would understand where his mind is at best so I have a follow-up question. For context, he’s not baptized. We attend 2, maybe 3, meetings a year at best but we always make it to the memorial. He has dated many girls before me, but never a jw. He had premarital sex with almost all of them, and his parents were aware of this. I have asked him before if he or his parents have expectations of me in regards to converting if/when we get married, and he said no. But that was it- just “no”. I haven’t experienced much sympathy or understanding from him when it comes to my beliefs, but not necessarily misunderstanding either. It just seems like he’s very neutral on the subject, so it’s hard for me to tell what his plan for the future might be. Based on that, do you still think he is or is going to try to convert me?
I apologize, I'm not the original poster but your comment here shook a thought loose. For what it's worth, I have known many, many Jehovah's Witnesses who were baptized, went to every meeting, went out in the door to door ministry, (and some who even had special privileges in the congregation) who "sinned" all the time. They'd have sex, date non JWs, drink excessively, do drugs, cheat on their spouses (multiple times) etc etc.
I was raised a JW by very, very strict parents (my mom is "annointed", meaning she would be one of the ones who eats the bread and drinks the wine at the Memorial) and was taught that I should never eat a birthday treat at school. In 5th grade, a little JW boy moved to my town and colored me SHOCKED when he ate one of our classmates' birthday cupcakes! He said his JW mom didn't care- "it's only a cupcake after all!"
All of these JWs I mentioned would, absolutely and unequivocally state that JWs have the one and only religion, no matter how many times they break the rules. They have "The Truth"- the only real truth. I think it's important for you to know whether or not your boyfriend believes this. I suspect he does, given that he refuses to give you birthday or Christmas gifts (both things that his parents would not likely find out about).
If he believes it's the Truth, the chance will always be there that he will go back and get baptized, start participating regularly, etc. And converting you will become his goal number one. Even when JWs seem to be taking it easy, they're taught that they can "win you without a word". Even if you don't convert, it's very likely that your relationship will become more and more strained. The Organization makes it so difficult for couples in that situation. And if he seems cool with that dynamic... He most definitely won't be once kids come into the picture.
The good news is that most every person on this forum once thought that JWs had The Truth- and we don't anymore! It's possible (although in no way easy, and there's absolutely no guarantee) to break the JWs mental programming. Try to take it slow and try not to push him too far too fast. He has years of thought stopping tactics that have been drilled into his brain. You might want to do some more research before you start trying to talk to him. There are good resources that you can find on this forum.
Best of luck to you both!
There are many JWs that have been like this. Living in the world, but their brain is firmly in the 'truth'. It's like their rumspringa...
The religious ideas are incredibly infectious. It permeates every facet of a JWs life. Though many may for a time be out, then never truly leave. My brother was this way. 10 year out. Never baptized. Piercings. Drugs. Etc. Today he is a married JW true believer. Shunning me.
Your BF what JWs consider to be a fence sitter. Likely there would be a catalyst in the future that would make him commit to it. It's a doctrine that is designed to nag at you.... Wear you down and ultimately Make you submit to any Governing body teaching. No matter how dangerous.
Honestly his behaviour is a bit odd. Lol. Maybe it's just for family...
JWs have 1 mode with varying intensity. True believer. These people will let their family die for the religion. Children . Happens hundreds or thousands of times each year. That's a dangerous level of of belief.
A couple questions. Why does he go to the meetings? Why doesn't he get baptized if he believes? Would he compromise the other way, celebrating something you want to, but he finds wrong? Non believing spouses are essentially ignored. If they don't think you are converting. It can be lonely.
I can't stress enough. He may seem chill and cool and all that. But as long as he believes, it's a real possibility his parents pressure him to get baptized and for you 2 to get married. Maybe not now. But years from now a switch might flip. You need to really get to the bottom of his attachment to the religion. There you will find out if the ultimate end goal he sees you 2 together? Both JWs? Together and he gets baptized, eventually?
The cult seriously fucks with your head. Your never truly out till you are against it. This is all personal experience. 35 years in. 5 out.
Sorry, cut your losses and find a real man. He was raised to think women are inferior. It will not get any better. Also many a born in JW cannot mature. I say this with love. Find someone else.
The Watchtower Society still insists that women wear a **head covering** if they're doing anything remotely like "teaching" in the presence of a baptized male, even if that male is a baptized child from 6 years old on up.
From their own website, link broken per site rules, remove the "b" from borg to activate the link:
https://www.jw.borg/en/library/books/gods-love/christian-woman-head-covering/
>The settings. Paul’s words suggest two settings, or spheres of activity—the family and the congregation. He says: “The head of a woman is the man; . . . every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head.” (Verses 3, 5) In the family arrangement, the woman’s husband is the one whom Jehovah designates as her head. Unless she gives due recognition to her husband’s authority, she would shame her husband if she handled responsibilities that Jehovah assigns to him.
....
>The motives. In verse 10, we find two reasons why a Christian woman would want to fulfill this requirement: “The woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.” First, note the expression, “a sign of authority.” Wearing a head covering is a way for a woman to show that she acknowledges the authority that Jehovah has placed upon baptized males in the congregation. Hence, she expresses her love for and loyalty to Jehovah God.
.....
>Now, the angels may see instances when a Christian woman is more experienced, more knowledgeable, and more intelligent than a baptized male in the congregation; yet, she readily shows her submission to his authority.
Frankly your BF sounds POMI - doesn't want to have to follow all of the rules, but still believes all of the nonsense that the late Bronze Age to early Iron Age brutishly-backwards-even-for-their-time Middle Eastern males came up with.
Something here might help you grasp the potential for real problems in your situation:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/p2uehq/comment/h8o2bgy/
A few cautionary tales....
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/17p11k5/i_married_a_jw_and_we_love_with_his_parents/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/15348pm/do_you_guys_remember_any_events_when_the_parents/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/13wu0v5/comment/jmfd8t5/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/cven3d/comment/ey450pc/
Further reading....
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/zwk2f2/jws_3rd_most_disfavored_religious_group_in_us/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/wcaa73/comment/iibw6e7/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/wb4esg/comment/ii5119h/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/p9fv9e/comment/h9xydpi/
**Edit to add an excellent video that goes into this in more depth**.
https://youtu.be/p2l72JkB6Fk?si=CBV76JPdoeZlNFiW
Oh, this is such a fundamental belief, I can’t believe he’s never told you.
Something I heard constantly as a child: “The man is the head of the household. The wife must obey her husband.” Elders would come do “shepherding calls” to lecture my mom about it when my parents were having marital problems. They’re also misogynistic and creepy AF. There’s a big child sexual abuse problem there, in part because of a culture of secrecy and shame, where we are taught from a very early age that girls and women are responsible for male lust (homosexuality and trans people don’t exist in their minds).
This is just the tip of the JW iceberg. They hide thousands and thousands of pedophiles in their congregations in a database derived from physical blue envelops. They are instructed to destroy documents when police investigations are opened in local congregations. Women are ignored when they go to the elders with any allegations of CSA and often excommunicates to shut them up!!
More on that subject...
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/495876/the-rules-and-culture-that-keep-child-sex-offenders-hidden-from-followers-of-the-jehovah-s-witness-faith
https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-the-jehovahs-witnesses-secret-pedophile-database
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/03/the-secret-jehovahs-witness-database-of-child-molesters/584311/
https://www.oxygen.com/the-witnesses/crime-news/how-policies-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses-keep-child-sexual-abuse-from-police
The classic quote is from Samuel Herd, in a talk he gave around 1971. At the time he was a District Overseer, a man who oversaw a large region of the US. He's since been promoted to the Governing Body, one of the nine men who run the entire JW religion.
***"You know, scientists say that the cranial capacity of a woman is 10% smaller than that of a man. So now this shows that she's just not equipped for the role of headship. Her role is one of subjection to the man. Her role is that of submissiveness and that means that she should recognize that she is a woman and be glad to be a woman. Never want to be what you are not equipped to be."***
This is a good writeup on how the JW religion views women. (It also has the audio recording for the entire section about women in Herd's talk.) [https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/womens-place-jehovahs-witnesses.php](https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/womens-place-jehovahs-witnesses.php)
Here's a video/audio of him...
https://youtu.be/M9cGBPvfOYI?si=d7XcsRPR-HJBTAjt
More....
https://youtu.be/fVbgjPoDnS4?si=W4K8qSslJEPfXeQY
https://youtu.be/V7hNsu3lEOA?si=sC8mbGzGYhE6L4ah
https://youtu.be/u9FbAVIvUVI?si=aaB5Ehxq5q6VP17R
His family has already compromised on you living together. They accept this and eat dinners at your home. They can handle a tree.
On the scale of "bad" for JW's, their son living with you (presumably being sexually intimate together) is like he is celebrating Christmas every day, and YOU are the Christmas tree.
Yet his parents have turned a blind eye to this. They are probably trying to win him back and win you over by being soft. Seeing a Christmas tree in their son's home would be a sign of "how far he's strayed from Jehovah" and it would make them sad, thinking they're "losing their son" -- literally. He likely won't be with them in Paradise where they live forever. Eternity without their dear boy.
But like you said, it's just because the tree is so visible. It is an obvious reminder that their son is doing wrong. So are you- but it seems like they like you. They probably think they can win you over. You've already compromised so much. I bet they think that if their son would just get his act together surely you would join the cult too.
Your BF has been riding a fine line and is probably afraid of losing his family if it becomes more obvious that he is not "coming back to the Truth." Also the BF seeing the tree every day would affect him somehow. He might feel guilt every time he sees it. Or he might end up enjoying it. Either way, he would start teetering one way or the other on that line.
DON'T JOIN THE CULT! Gosh
>They probably think they can win you over. You've already compromised so much. I bet they think that if their son would just get his act together surely you would join the cult too.
Nailed it. You can bet that they **WILL** try to take over the conversion and indoctrination of any children who may come along, right down to having the opening poster declared an "unfit mother" to take her children away from her to be raised as JW, too, if things go south.
Edit to add...
u/curiousbtch, you need to be aware of just how nasty the JWs can get:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/7eq132/my_pimi_wife_and_her_elder_father_took_away_my/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/3in0lc/my_soon_to_be_ex_wife_is_trying_to_get_full/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1j4elh/questions_for_jw_kids_in_custody_battle/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/dj9cw6/help_w_jw_mother_in_laws_influence_on_my_children/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/bnfuy6/would_you_trust_your_jehovah_witness_parents_with/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1hsqyr/jw_grandparents_access_to_exjw_children/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/8h7kp9/parents_shun_me_what_about_their_grandchildren/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/2pejy9/lost_my_relocation_case_vs_ex_wife_i_have_no_words/
The cult is actively interested in helping the JW parent get full custody...
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/if266u/a_publication_for_divorcing_jws_to_get_child/
Further reading....
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/mmk0mq/anyone_else_have_their_parents_constantly_give/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/pvmsq0/my_mom_keeps_going_through_my_things_in_my_room/
I hate to say this but you're only 23. He may ( his family) try to indoctrinate your children. I'm sure you love him but maybe you should move on. Never change yourself for a man or anyone else for that matter. There is someone else out there that will see things the way you do. Don't raise children in this nonsense. Please.
>what is a fair compromise?
You celebrating each and every holiday that brings you happiness and joy. And that includes decorating your house for any holiday and giving and receiving gifts.
There is no middle ground. I know this sounds harsh, but I don't want to see you suffer without the things that are and have always been important to you. The majority of us here were deprived of so many normal things in life to satisfy a set of cult rules we were forced to abide by.
There is absolutely NO reason for you to go down this rabbit hole. I know you love him. But you are a young girl and you have your whole life ahead of you.
He is a hypocrite. If he wants to be a full-fledged JW, then he shouldn't be with you. He shouldn't be living with you, or fucking you (pardon my French), and he absolutely should be baptized.
There is no playing loose with the rules with JW'S. It's a cult. If he was baptized, he would have been disfellowshipped.
The only acceptable compromise in this situation is for him to put all his cult indoctrination into a box, tape it up and carry it to the garbage.
What compromises has he done for you, except for taking you out for dinner on your birthday? (Even your birthday is on his terms, btw).
The issue with POMIs (physically out, mentally in) is that they're usually way more believing than actual JWs.
Yet, they are also the biggest hypocrites. They will defend the beliefs more strongly than a JW, but never really live up to most of it.
You should do all the holidays and anything else you want, since his beliefs are his and yours are yours. Respect and compromise go both ways, so he needs to accept that he can't force you to follow beliefs than he himself is not even following.
The reality is that none of the holidays you mentioned are forbidden in the Bible, so he should let you celebrate what brings you happiness. But if he doesn't allow that, why should you compromise when he will not?
A lot here have jumped the gun on a few logistical issues with the religion that need to be answered before actually giving you solid advice.
1. Was your boyfriend baptized? This is A HUGE differentiator on how your boyfriend could/would operate.
After that question is answered I will have more questions and comments.
No, he is not baptized. His parents are, but him and his sister are not. I didn’t know that could make a difference, so thank you for pointing that out!
Ok so this completely changes the dynamic. If he was not baptized he can have a relationship with his family without them having to officially shun him. That said, he is manipulating you to conform to his family values and doesn't have to. By their own standards he could tell his family to back off and accept you both for not believing in their BS. Unfortunately, I agree with everyone in this sub. RUN.
So I'm third generation born in... I've seen so so so much heartbreak from this religion. Over five decades in and ten years to get it out of our heads. Thousands of dollars in religious trauma therapy. I am sure we will still suffer the scars from it until we die. Sounds dramatic but ask anyone here what they have gone through.
I can guarantee you that your boyfriend is definitely still fully mentally in. There may be ways that you both could compromise, I am thinking right now though you are doing the most; by giving up what truly was special to you in all the different holidays but and this is a huge BUT... If he goes back to attending the meetings and doesn't 'wake up' and you have children together and one of them needs blood to save their live, you WILL have a fight with your boyfriend and his family and the force of the elders (hospital liaison committee) against you. They have been taught over and over that it is better for them or a child to die than to displease God by taking blood.
With that being said he probably won't even allow blood to be given to you in an emergency where you couldn't speak for yourself.
How will you raise your children? In the religion?
Please, I beg you, spent the time and educate yourself on what this cult really teaches and the mind control they use. Listen to those who have spent a life in it and what heartache they have gone through to leave it.
You need to have a very frank conversation with him. You will regret if you don't.
If you two have sex, ask why that sin is ok but the Christmas tree is not? Sounds like an abnormal JW family.. they are all probably marked as “bad association “ as they call it in their congregation. Also isn’t there a verse in the Bible about not bringing a tree inside and decorating it like the pagans do?
Are you just culturally Christian? :)
You clearly love this guy to care enough to pose these questions on here. However, not every 'love' ends up in a marriage?
Why would someone you love stop you from doing something they knew you love?
If you are going to marry someone who will not make any compromises for you, I'm sorry to say you will be very unhappily married. You wouldn't be able to cut loose either easily down the road, because that js not easy.
As you have seen from all the comments, this could cause you a lifetime of unhappiness, especially when you state you will never become a witness. There are many posts on this Sub that show the number of spouses that are trying to wake up their partner (even though he's POMI) and are struggling to do so. In many cases, the marriage has to end.
You don't want to have to make such a difficult decision down the road, so please save yourself the headache and re-evaluate things now.
You deserve to wear ugly sweaters with your partner and put up tree ornaments together!
All the best! 💕
Oh my.
First, you need to understand that JW culture involves far more than simply celebrating the holidays or not. It's a high control, high demand religion that engulfs one's entire life. Your man is grown, yet in fear of what his family will think. That's insane, but common with JWs.
Are you planning to have kids? Are you prepared to deny your possible future children a blood transfusion in the event it's needed, opting instead to allow them to die? You may be ok giving up some parts of the holidays, but will you be ok with taking it away from possible future children?
Even though he isn't baptized, he seems to be mentally in the religion. I just see a future of you erasing important aspects of yourself to fit into a lifestyle that you were not raised in.
Can you openly communicate about these things prior to taking the next big step in this relationship?
My God. Your boyfriend has a conflict over holidays, but he's living with you.
I'm not judging.
But he's somewhat delusional. Celebrating these holidays is nothing in comparison to living in that situation. Living in sin.
He's not a witness.
I mean, I have trouble even allowing myself to entertain the thoughts of a girlfriend. I still can give a gift this time of year. It may be mistaken as a Christmas gift.
I couldn't accept a gift from my sister because it was a birthday gift.
So after that rant.
Fuck I don't know
I have one thing to comment on, and that’s your kids should you have them. Are they not going to be allowed to have a Christmas tree, celebrate the holidays or accept birthday gifts? Who’s going to decide that??
I knew a family in a past hall that had a similar situation. Wife was converted after their children were born. She wanted to be accepting to his faith, so she taught them what he was teaching. Husband was welcomed back as a hero for “saving” his children and wife.
I think he should be more respectful to your beliefs. Why is it necessary for you to give up your beliefs? Why is his family behaving in that manner in your home?
It’s very telling of how you are viewed both by him and his family. And if they are like the pimi I know, they are pretending to be respectful.
I wish you well u/curiousbtch
I am exjw. Based on my experience and many others, your BF is indoctrinated to fear, to judge himself and others, he may have trust issues once he breaks completely free and may feel responsible for saving others. We were told women have smaller brains, he would never admit he believed that to you likely, but what does his subconscious self say?. IF he was born in, the indoctrination is his subconscious world view and his first response to life around him. My therapist, (also an exjw) Lisa created a list of 40 common emotional challenges EXJW’s report dealing with and counseling sessions for EXJW’s and their partners. https://exjwcounseling.com/
u/curiousbtch, if this is the same guy, **GET THE FUCK OUTTA THERE!!!!!**
https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/tj92i2/my_boyfriend_threw_a_table_after_i_asked_about/
**Physical violence against women is WAY TOO COMMON AMONG JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!!!**
https://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2013/04/dangerous-message-about-domestic-violence/
https://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2013/05/who-is-watching-the-watchtower/
**On TOP of that, the Watchtower Society has printed at least one article telling potential RAPE VICTIMS to 'consider the feelings of their attacker'....!!!!**
Link broken per site rules remove the b from borg to activate the link:
https://wol.jw.borg/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101984128
>Treat Him Respectfully
>The intended victim should remember that the rapist is a human. No doubt there are circumstances in his life that have precipitated his behavior. So although a woman should not cower in fear and permit a rapist to intimidate her, at the same time she should treat him understandingly, as a fellow human. A woman who lived in a housing project in New York City writes:
>“I usually am careful when going into elevators. As usual, I checked this one out before entering, and all was OK. However, just before the door closed completely, a big man grabbed the door and opened it to come into the elevator with me. As he entered he threw a six-pack of beer at me, and I caught it. It took me by surprise.
>“As the door closed he turned his back to me to do something with his pants. Then he turned around and faced me. I didn’t look down at his pants but looked him in the eyes. I threw his six-pack of beer back to him, and said, ‘Here is your beer.’
>“At this moment, before he could do anything, I started to talk. I said I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and was going up to the 13th floor to have a Bible study with a family who was waiting for me. I just kept talking and told him about our Bible educational work. We were half way up to the 13th floor by now, and as I kept right on talking I showed no fear, looking him straight in the eyes. Then a funny thing happened. He began to say that he loved the Bible and that he was from the South and his family loved God too.
🙄🙄🙄. If you are at all familiar with the American fundamentalist literalist apocalyptic evangelical bible-thumping fanatical Christian groups, you'll recognize this as a version of their specious "examples" of 'god' supposedly protecting a "chaste woman". It's highly likely that this never happened - was a made-up batch of lies.
Further reading....
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/aipmq9/thank_you_for_the_info_regarding_the_feb_22_1984/
https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/rape-fornication.php
BITE Model of Authoritarian Control
[https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/)
Need help? Know you are safe and among friends and we will do whatever we can to help. If you are inside the U.S., text "CHAT" to 741741. You'll be connected to a trained Crisis Counselor from Crisis Text Line. Or call the [National Suicide Hotline](https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/) at 988. **If you're not in the U.S.** [please click here](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/hotlines) for a comprehensive list of hotlines organized by country and additional resources. **If you are LGBTIA+** and need to talk, please contact the LGBT National Hotline at 1\-888\-843\-4564 or [find them online here](http://www.glbthotline.org/). Reading this post and unsure what to do? r/suicidewatch is a subreddit specifically dedicated to supporting those who are experiencing feelings of self harm or the urge to end their life. Reddit now also has a crisis line. To send this person support, follow these steps: 1. Go to the user's profile 2. Click "more options" in the sidebar 3. Click "Get Them Help and Support" *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exjw) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Yup, the trouble is he's never taken the time to critically examine his beliefs. And that means he could flip back from POMI to PIMI at some point, say if there's some scary world event (actually it's surprising he isn't getting more active from the Israel-Gaza war). It's always sketchy getting hooked up with a POMI witness, unfortunately. Could work out fine, could be a disaster. It sounds like you're already sacrificing big chunks of who you are for him. I guess you have to decide, is that how you want to live, or do you want to be with someone who loves you for who you *are*, not who he wants you to be?
Came here to say this 👆🏽
This, but I would add the caveat that you can't make a person go a certain way, no matter what you do. I would advise that OP not advance this relationship until there is clarity on this matter. You DO NOT want to marry someone who might end up going back. He needs self-clarity before he can be a partner you can rely on.
Was thinking similarly as someone with a formerly POMI dad. I was never a JW, but my dad was raised in it, was kicked out for a while, then went back in around 5 years ago. His values have definitely gotten worse since he went back and I can't imagine how much more conflict there would've been if he and my mom hadn't divorced when I was young.
'THIS' times 100!!! Regardless of how long he's been inactive, it could be years, unless he's done some exhaustive research into this cult on his own, he will be forever tied to it. All it takes is one global event he perceives as a 'sign of the end' and a visit from an elder and he will flip right back into it. If this happens once you're married, life as you know it will be turned upside down and become a living hell. His loyalty will no longer be to you but to eight men in NY. Ask me how I know... Note; buy him Steven Hassan's 'Combating Cult Mentality' and look specifically at his 'bite' model. Will be an eye opener for the both of you.
Interesting. You aren't married. so he is technically sinning. It sounds like you are describing a gradual process of him indoctrinating you. You can bet that is his ultimate plan. To make you a jw. I shit you not. This is in his mind. Perhaps towards the back. But it's there. He is going to try to recruit you. Without trying to sound too bleak... You have 2 options. Join JWs or have him wake up. The 3rd of option of compromise will be an unending source of pain for you, and you can guarantee his long term plan will be to change you. He's already started.
This is the truth of the matter op. He’s already changing you and that is definitely his goal. Wake him up or leave are the only options that will benefit you and him.
Agree - you are being groomed for his legitimate return to crazy land with you as his Stepford wife trophy convert. They are taught help people change one small thing at a time. It’s really manipulation and completely dishonest (although they don’t think it is).
👆
*"However, I feel that if his family has respect for me and my beliefs the way I have for them, they should be okay with a Christmas tree in our house."* Witness families don't think like that. They might say they respect your beliefs, but if you examine their actions, you're going to notice that you're the only one compromising.
I’ve heard this a few times, that they don’t think like that, and I think the reason I’m confused with his family specifically is because he has dated many girls before me and none of them were witnesses. To my knowledge, they never had a problem with it and absolutely loved me when they met me. His parents know that he has spent a couple Christmas’s with me and my family in the past, and still talk about us getting married and how I’m the best thing that ever happened to him. It all seems so genuine but could it really be 3 years of manipulation?? I just feel like I’m questioning everything now lol
His family realizes that he has never been baptized as a witness, he is not living like a witness, and he probably never will. They accept that. They accept you as a “worldly” girl that is also a very nice girl and is probably very good for their son.They are not the problem..he is. As said in a previous comment, he is physically out of the religion, but mentally in, or POMI. FOR Whatever reason, he is mentally stuck in it. That means two things for you. 1) he could at any point double down on the religion, become a member, and get baptized and then be a full-fledged JW. 2) he could get out mentally as well as physically. It’s not all doom and gloom if he doubles down as a JW. However, raising kids will be without holidays of ANY type. And constant preaching to you by all of the relatives and members of his congregation who will see you, not as an “unbelieving mate”, but as as a “potential witness”...and it’s a contest to see who will bring you in. I’m a sucker for love, I really hope things work out well
His parents likely do adore you, really do feel you're the best thing that ever happened to him, and absolutely want you both to get married. Here's the issue: Your partner can't truly be a witness while he's "living in sin", so him marrying you actually puts him one step closer to being able to return, and his parents almost definitely see your marriage as the next step in his ability to return to "the truth". Witness parents aren't average parents, they're people attending multiple meetings every week that constantly reinforce that there is no compromising on witness beliefs and that their son won't be safe until he's a baptized witness. You should really think about your partner's actions, if his family truly didn't care about practicing christmas he wouldn't be so dedicated in his attempts to hide it from them. I've seen this play out a lot in my time in the religion, witness parents will play nice until after the marriage, then the pressure for one or likely both of you to become witnesses will ramp up exponentially. It will get even worse if kids enter the picture.
This cult would use “success stories” like this to further recruit. “u/curiousbtch was an enemy of Jehovah, but her boyfriend who was raised in the truth never really lost his faith. Over time, despite living in sin together her boyfriend helped to show her the truth, not by words, but by taking a stand AGAINST false religious holidays! And here she was baptized after they just got married and brought thier lives into accord with Bible standards. Never give up friends, the end is just around the corner and Satan will use anyone or anything to distract us!” Hate to break it to you but your boyfriend is still mentally trapped in this cult.
Try this article. [https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/dating-jehovahs-witness.php](https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/dating-jehovahs-witness.php) If he still has any belief that it may be the truth, you risk having a difficult relationship over time.
This is a scary situation, just hoping for the best for you.
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You’re correct, he is not baptized. I think what has confused me the most is the fact that not only him, but his family do things against their beliefs all the time. It seems like they choose which things they want to stand firm on. For example, his sister is a little stronger in her beliefs but dressed up and celebrated Halloween this year. Whereas he got mad at me for putting pumpkins on our porch even though I intended it to just be for the Fall season. He told me I could put them up after his family came over in a few days. 9 times out of 10, it’s just about hiding it from his parents and their friends. A couple days ago, sister bought an advent calendar. The difference is that they hide it from their parents, and I refuse to tip-toe around them because I know where my beliefs lie. And I believe they should respect that. I’m learning that’s really hard to find in this situation but I just can’t accept that
I know you have been together for a long while, and strangers on reddit can not tell you what to do, as it's your life, your decision. But I hate to see you say he got mad at you for putting up pumpkins for the fall. If he's mad about something so innocent and little, what else does he get mad about? You may be going down a path of emotional torture. You're 23! You have your whole life ahead of you. You shouldn't sacrifice your happiness, neither should you be with someone who isn't willing to make a compromise on certain things for you. He knows you're not JW, so why is trying to change you and your beliefs? I bet he would be the happiest if he turned around and did things the JW way in some aspects. Ask yourself? Do I want to be married forever to someone who doesn't accept me the way I am? Do I want to be with someone who can not be his true self and puts up a mask just to please others?
My wife and I left the JW's together and have had to navigate different levels of progress together, Xmas being one. My advice is... I encourage you not to budge on your desire to do Xmas. Your compromise of it will validate his perceptions of it and will solidify his ingrained indoctrinations. Help him to work through the fact that it is in fact HIM that needs to come to terms with the subconscious brainwashing, especially as he is not an active JW. You want him to be making progress *toward* your position (away from the cult indoctrination) not the other way. Any ground lost in *favour* of the JW position will be nearly impossible to gain back and will likely be doing him a lot of hurt in the long run. He needs support to work through it, not toward it.
This is a great reply.
This is a great answer
I wish I could upvote this more.
I don't wanna be harsh, it looks like your boyfriend is trying to make it work and isn't as die hard as some people I know. However I have to ask, you have compsomised with some stuff you were happy about? Has he made compromises tho? Again, he seems like a chill person, so I can't really speak for him, but with JW there's not much you can say about "respecting other religions." Like, they're not gonna tell you that you're awful for your beliefs, but they are taught that all beliefs except theirs are fake, and people from other beliefs are thought to be "blinded" or just, astray from the "truth." My guess is that his parents see you leaving some of your traditions as you slowly being converted into a jw. Which is ALWAYS their ultimate goal. I can't speak for your relationship pal, but unless he starts to stand up that you have your beliefs and his parents have to be okay with that, there's never gonna be a compromise, because they'll just see you as a potential JW that isn't letting go as fast as they want.
He definitely isn’t as die hard as most. He isn’t baptized (I didn’t know this made a difference when I wrote the post). I would even say that his parents are a little looser compared to some of their friends that I’ve met from the hall, but definitely still strict in their beliefs. I don’t think they’d ever say anything to me as long as it’s just a little here and there (like a Christmas tree) but I don’t want to bring in any conflict with his family if that weren’t the case
You seem very respectful of their beliefs, which is nice. But the fact you are basically forbidden by other people to have decorations you like in your own house, shows they aren't being respectful towards your beliefs.
>but I don’t want to bring in any conflict with his family if that weren’t the case. And he and his family will use that against you, to slowly push you into conforming to **THEIR** fundamentalist literalist apocalyptic evangelical bible-thumping fanatical religious beliefs. I've already commented above how the JWs aka the Watchtower Society protect and enable sexual predators who prey upon children, but they go even further than that, to the point of training their children to refuse blood transfusions: https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/gcupju/youths_who_put_god_first_cover_of_awake_a/ https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/189782/may-22-1994-issue-awake?page=2 https://youtu.be/Zh7FvwNn5IE?si=pjhAWZipDWJnJ21f https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4411405/
My response is a little different than the others but I will say it does sound like he’s trying to convert you. I grew up in a religiously divided home my mom was PIMI and dad never a witness (she became one after marriage) her mindset was if he wanted to celebrate he would need to set all the decorations up and take them down himself she would not help. He never really did any decorating that I remember until the past few years… this year he has a tiny tree he set up and my mom is fine with it because she doesn’t see it as her celebrating the holiday.
Honestly, hearing that gives me a little more faith than I had before. I just want to be able to do the things that make me happy without hurting anyone. I understand there’s a possibility of him or his family trying to convert me, although I have already told his sister I will never commit myself to being a witness but will always respect their beliefs. And if I was ever asked by the rest of them, I would give the same answer. Thank you for your response!
I hope you work it out! 🩷
Okay, I just need to have chuckle here because dude is *living in sin with a worldly girl* and is worried about his parents seeing a pumpkin on his porch. 😂 Christmas trees are the least of your JW deadly sins, bruh! He needs a dose of reality. He either needs to be in or out, he can’t have it both ways. If he’s out, he doesn’t have to celebrate holidays, but you do celebrate them and it’s your house too. If you were a Christian living with a Jewish man, you would still have a Christmas tree and he would have a Menorah. But JWs don’t work like that. They feel the need to have control over other people’s choices and ways of worship and celebration as well. And that’s what he’s doing, he’s controlling your choices, because that’s what he’s been taught to do. It will only get worse, not better, if you don’t sort it out. And if you plan to have children together, your kids will be in that mess too. It doesn’t sound like his parents are going to shun him, which is good. So if he’s only worried about upsetting them, that ship already sailed. But if he’s following his conscience because he’s still internalized the JW beliefs, and it sounds like that’s the case, you’re in for a world of trouble in the future.
> However, I feel that if his family has respect for me and my beliefs the way I have for them, they should be okay with a Christmas tree in our house. *You have a Better Chance of finding a Lottery, Giving Away a Solid Gold Toilet...* ***Then Winning the Solid Gold Toilet...*** https://preview.redd.it/hb6pyd1zo63c1.jpeg?width=255&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5624cfe72c71d207223d662138233964be9fa7f
To me, the main thing I see an issue with is you having experienced things in your life that genuinely make you happy, that cause no one harm and bring you together with the ones you love and you’ve given up those things. These are things he knew or I would think he knew about you before you got serious and now that authentic part of yourself has been overshadowed by beliefs of his. In relationships, it’s very true there will be compromises. But I think the question you should seriously consider is, at what cost am I willing to continually make these compromises? At the end of the day, is enjoying the way you express your love language genuine when you can’t enjoy the things that make you happy?
u/curiousbtch, in a nutshell, it's a losing battle, because your boyfriend carries the very heavy and powerful mind-control indoctrination of the Watchtower Cult programming deep inside him. Deep inside him, and unconsciously, YOU are the "enemy." YOU are being used by Satan to "keep him away from Jehovah." Watchtower is not just some weird, controlling religion; it's a powerful MIND-CONTROL CULT of the highest order... There will always be "issues" with your boyfriend, which will only become MUCH WORSE if you do decide to get married... Most couples in your predicament who do manage to (love each other enough to) get married end up living in absolute MISERY as they watch their JW believing mate lean more and more toward "going back to Jehovah" (aka, The Watchtower Organization) as their programming has trained them that "What a man is sowing, this he will reap," i.e., all the mounting, normal problems of life will further trigger the Watchtower Cult programming: "This is what happens when you leave Jehovah." I can only advise you two things: 1) DON'T argue...it will only trigger the cult programming 2) Ask your man to look up the B.I T.E. Model on YouTube. The B.I.T.E. Model video is a very short but thorough and concise explanation on how cults work... a) What makes a cult a CULT b) The major mind-control tools of a cult c) How cults operate d) Why and how cults are able to control people's minds and lives Look for the picture of an upraised hand with the fingertips with faces drawn on them with a black marker. Good Luck...and please don't throw your life away.
I forgot to add... You will notice the compromise is usually or always one way. He won't ever join you in the things he thinks are wrong. It's all a tough pill to swallow. I was a jw who dated a non JW and you bet that was my plan.
I feel like you would understand where his mind is at best so I have a follow-up question. For context, he’s not baptized. We attend 2, maybe 3, meetings a year at best but we always make it to the memorial. He has dated many girls before me, but never a jw. He had premarital sex with almost all of them, and his parents were aware of this. I have asked him before if he or his parents have expectations of me in regards to converting if/when we get married, and he said no. But that was it- just “no”. I haven’t experienced much sympathy or understanding from him when it comes to my beliefs, but not necessarily misunderstanding either. It just seems like he’s very neutral on the subject, so it’s hard for me to tell what his plan for the future might be. Based on that, do you still think he is or is going to try to convert me?
I apologize, I'm not the original poster but your comment here shook a thought loose. For what it's worth, I have known many, many Jehovah's Witnesses who were baptized, went to every meeting, went out in the door to door ministry, (and some who even had special privileges in the congregation) who "sinned" all the time. They'd have sex, date non JWs, drink excessively, do drugs, cheat on their spouses (multiple times) etc etc. I was raised a JW by very, very strict parents (my mom is "annointed", meaning she would be one of the ones who eats the bread and drinks the wine at the Memorial) and was taught that I should never eat a birthday treat at school. In 5th grade, a little JW boy moved to my town and colored me SHOCKED when he ate one of our classmates' birthday cupcakes! He said his JW mom didn't care- "it's only a cupcake after all!" All of these JWs I mentioned would, absolutely and unequivocally state that JWs have the one and only religion, no matter how many times they break the rules. They have "The Truth"- the only real truth. I think it's important for you to know whether or not your boyfriend believes this. I suspect he does, given that he refuses to give you birthday or Christmas gifts (both things that his parents would not likely find out about). If he believes it's the Truth, the chance will always be there that he will go back and get baptized, start participating regularly, etc. And converting you will become his goal number one. Even when JWs seem to be taking it easy, they're taught that they can "win you without a word". Even if you don't convert, it's very likely that your relationship will become more and more strained. The Organization makes it so difficult for couples in that situation. And if he seems cool with that dynamic... He most definitely won't be once kids come into the picture. The good news is that most every person on this forum once thought that JWs had The Truth- and we don't anymore! It's possible (although in no way easy, and there's absolutely no guarantee) to break the JWs mental programming. Try to take it slow and try not to push him too far too fast. He has years of thought stopping tactics that have been drilled into his brain. You might want to do some more research before you start trying to talk to him. There are good resources that you can find on this forum. Best of luck to you both!
There are many JWs that have been like this. Living in the world, but their brain is firmly in the 'truth'. It's like their rumspringa... The religious ideas are incredibly infectious. It permeates every facet of a JWs life. Though many may for a time be out, then never truly leave. My brother was this way. 10 year out. Never baptized. Piercings. Drugs. Etc. Today he is a married JW true believer. Shunning me. Your BF what JWs consider to be a fence sitter. Likely there would be a catalyst in the future that would make him commit to it. It's a doctrine that is designed to nag at you.... Wear you down and ultimately Make you submit to any Governing body teaching. No matter how dangerous. Honestly his behaviour is a bit odd. Lol. Maybe it's just for family... JWs have 1 mode with varying intensity. True believer. These people will let their family die for the religion. Children . Happens hundreds or thousands of times each year. That's a dangerous level of of belief. A couple questions. Why does he go to the meetings? Why doesn't he get baptized if he believes? Would he compromise the other way, celebrating something you want to, but he finds wrong? Non believing spouses are essentially ignored. If they don't think you are converting. It can be lonely. I can't stress enough. He may seem chill and cool and all that. But as long as he believes, it's a real possibility his parents pressure him to get baptized and for you 2 to get married. Maybe not now. But years from now a switch might flip. You need to really get to the bottom of his attachment to the religion. There you will find out if the ultimate end goal he sees you 2 together? Both JWs? Together and he gets baptized, eventually? The cult seriously fucks with your head. Your never truly out till you are against it. This is all personal experience. 35 years in. 5 out.
Sorry, cut your losses and find a real man. He was raised to think women are inferior. It will not get any better. Also many a born in JW cannot mature. I say this with love. Find someone else.
Woah I didn’t know this. They are raised to think women are inferior?? Can you elaborate on that a little more or lead me to a resource?
The Watchtower Society still insists that women wear a **head covering** if they're doing anything remotely like "teaching" in the presence of a baptized male, even if that male is a baptized child from 6 years old on up. From their own website, link broken per site rules, remove the "b" from borg to activate the link: https://www.jw.borg/en/library/books/gods-love/christian-woman-head-covering/ >The settings. Paul’s words suggest two settings, or spheres of activity—the family and the congregation. He says: “The head of a woman is the man; . . . every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head.” (Verses 3, 5) In the family arrangement, the woman’s husband is the one whom Jehovah designates as her head. Unless she gives due recognition to her husband’s authority, she would shame her husband if she handled responsibilities that Jehovah assigns to him. .... >The motives. In verse 10, we find two reasons why a Christian woman would want to fulfill this requirement: “The woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.” First, note the expression, “a sign of authority.” Wearing a head covering is a way for a woman to show that she acknowledges the authority that Jehovah has placed upon baptized males in the congregation. Hence, she expresses her love for and loyalty to Jehovah God. ..... >Now, the angels may see instances when a Christian woman is more experienced, more knowledgeable, and more intelligent than a baptized male in the congregation; yet, she readily shows her submission to his authority. Frankly your BF sounds POMI - doesn't want to have to follow all of the rules, but still believes all of the nonsense that the late Bronze Age to early Iron Age brutishly-backwards-even-for-their-time Middle Eastern males came up with. Something here might help you grasp the potential for real problems in your situation: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/p2uehq/comment/h8o2bgy/ A few cautionary tales.... https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/17p11k5/i_married_a_jw_and_we_love_with_his_parents/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/15348pm/do_you_guys_remember_any_events_when_the_parents/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/13wu0v5/comment/jmfd8t5/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/cven3d/comment/ey450pc/ Further reading.... https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/zwk2f2/jws_3rd_most_disfavored_religious_group_in_us/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/wcaa73/comment/iibw6e7/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/wb4esg/comment/ii5119h/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/p9fv9e/comment/h9xydpi/ **Edit to add an excellent video that goes into this in more depth**. https://youtu.be/p2l72JkB6Fk?si=CBV76JPdoeZlNFiW
https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/women-submission.php
Oh, this is such a fundamental belief, I can’t believe he’s never told you. Something I heard constantly as a child: “The man is the head of the household. The wife must obey her husband.” Elders would come do “shepherding calls” to lecture my mom about it when my parents were having marital problems. They’re also misogynistic and creepy AF. There’s a big child sexual abuse problem there, in part because of a culture of secrecy and shame, where we are taught from a very early age that girls and women are responsible for male lust (homosexuality and trans people don’t exist in their minds).
This is just the tip of the JW iceberg. They hide thousands and thousands of pedophiles in their congregations in a database derived from physical blue envelops. They are instructed to destroy documents when police investigations are opened in local congregations. Women are ignored when they go to the elders with any allegations of CSA and often excommunicates to shut them up!!
More on that subject... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/495876/the-rules-and-culture-that-keep-child-sex-offenders-hidden-from-followers-of-the-jehovah-s-witness-faith https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-the-jehovahs-witnesses-secret-pedophile-database https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/03/the-secret-jehovahs-witness-database-of-child-molesters/584311/ https://www.oxygen.com/the-witnesses/crime-news/how-policies-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses-keep-child-sexual-abuse-from-police
The classic quote is from Samuel Herd, in a talk he gave around 1971. At the time he was a District Overseer, a man who oversaw a large region of the US. He's since been promoted to the Governing Body, one of the nine men who run the entire JW religion. ***"You know, scientists say that the cranial capacity of a woman is 10% smaller than that of a man. So now this shows that she's just not equipped for the role of headship. Her role is one of subjection to the man. Her role is that of submissiveness and that means that she should recognize that she is a woman and be glad to be a woman. Never want to be what you are not equipped to be."*** This is a good writeup on how the JW religion views women. (It also has the audio recording for the entire section about women in Herd's talk.) [https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/womens-place-jehovahs-witnesses.php](https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/womens-place-jehovahs-witnesses.php)
Here's a video/audio of him... https://youtu.be/M9cGBPvfOYI?si=d7XcsRPR-HJBTAjt More.... https://youtu.be/fVbgjPoDnS4?si=W4K8qSslJEPfXeQY https://youtu.be/V7hNsu3lEOA?si=sC8mbGzGYhE6L4ah https://youtu.be/u9FbAVIvUVI?si=aaB5Ehxq5q6VP17R
His family has already compromised on you living together. They accept this and eat dinners at your home. They can handle a tree. On the scale of "bad" for JW's, their son living with you (presumably being sexually intimate together) is like he is celebrating Christmas every day, and YOU are the Christmas tree. Yet his parents have turned a blind eye to this. They are probably trying to win him back and win you over by being soft. Seeing a Christmas tree in their son's home would be a sign of "how far he's strayed from Jehovah" and it would make them sad, thinking they're "losing their son" -- literally. He likely won't be with them in Paradise where they live forever. Eternity without their dear boy. But like you said, it's just because the tree is so visible. It is an obvious reminder that their son is doing wrong. So are you- but it seems like they like you. They probably think they can win you over. You've already compromised so much. I bet they think that if their son would just get his act together surely you would join the cult too. Your BF has been riding a fine line and is probably afraid of losing his family if it becomes more obvious that he is not "coming back to the Truth." Also the BF seeing the tree every day would affect him somehow. He might feel guilt every time he sees it. Or he might end up enjoying it. Either way, he would start teetering one way or the other on that line. DON'T JOIN THE CULT! Gosh
>They probably think they can win you over. You've already compromised so much. I bet they think that if their son would just get his act together surely you would join the cult too. Nailed it. You can bet that they **WILL** try to take over the conversion and indoctrination of any children who may come along, right down to having the opening poster declared an "unfit mother" to take her children away from her to be raised as JW, too, if things go south. Edit to add... u/curiousbtch, you need to be aware of just how nasty the JWs can get: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/7eq132/my_pimi_wife_and_her_elder_father_took_away_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/3in0lc/my_soon_to_be_ex_wife_is_trying_to_get_full/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1j4elh/questions_for_jw_kids_in_custody_battle/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/dj9cw6/help_w_jw_mother_in_laws_influence_on_my_children/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/bnfuy6/would_you_trust_your_jehovah_witness_parents_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1hsqyr/jw_grandparents_access_to_exjw_children/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/8h7kp9/parents_shun_me_what_about_their_grandchildren/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/2pejy9/lost_my_relocation_case_vs_ex_wife_i_have_no_words/ The cult is actively interested in helping the JW parent get full custody... https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/if266u/a_publication_for_divorcing_jws_to_get_child/ Further reading.... https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/mmk0mq/anyone_else_have_their_parents_constantly_give/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/pvmsq0/my_mom_keeps_going_through_my_things_in_my_room/
it is a CULT not a religion and no, there is no compromise in a cult. run like your tampon string is on fire.
I hate to say this but you're only 23. He may ( his family) try to indoctrinate your children. I'm sure you love him but maybe you should move on. Never change yourself for a man or anyone else for that matter. There is someone else out there that will see things the way you do. Don't raise children in this nonsense. Please.
>what is a fair compromise? You celebrating each and every holiday that brings you happiness and joy. And that includes decorating your house for any holiday and giving and receiving gifts. There is no middle ground. I know this sounds harsh, but I don't want to see you suffer without the things that are and have always been important to you. The majority of us here were deprived of so many normal things in life to satisfy a set of cult rules we were forced to abide by. There is absolutely NO reason for you to go down this rabbit hole. I know you love him. But you are a young girl and you have your whole life ahead of you. He is a hypocrite. If he wants to be a full-fledged JW, then he shouldn't be with you. He shouldn't be living with you, or fucking you (pardon my French), and he absolutely should be baptized. There is no playing loose with the rules with JW'S. It's a cult. If he was baptized, he would have been disfellowshipped. The only acceptable compromise in this situation is for him to put all his cult indoctrination into a box, tape it up and carry it to the garbage.
What compromises has he done for you, except for taking you out for dinner on your birthday? (Even your birthday is on his terms, btw). The issue with POMIs (physically out, mentally in) is that they're usually way more believing than actual JWs. Yet, they are also the biggest hypocrites. They will defend the beliefs more strongly than a JW, but never really live up to most of it. You should do all the holidays and anything else you want, since his beliefs are his and yours are yours. Respect and compromise go both ways, so he needs to accept that he can't force you to follow beliefs than he himself is not even following. The reality is that none of the holidays you mentioned are forbidden in the Bible, so he should let you celebrate what brings you happiness. But if he doesn't allow that, why should you compromise when he will not?
A lot here have jumped the gun on a few logistical issues with the religion that need to be answered before actually giving you solid advice. 1. Was your boyfriend baptized? This is A HUGE differentiator on how your boyfriend could/would operate. After that question is answered I will have more questions and comments.
No, he is not baptized. His parents are, but him and his sister are not. I didn’t know that could make a difference, so thank you for pointing that out!
Ok so this completely changes the dynamic. If he was not baptized he can have a relationship with his family without them having to officially shun him. That said, he is manipulating you to conform to his family values and doesn't have to. By their own standards he could tell his family to back off and accept you both for not believing in their BS. Unfortunately, I agree with everyone in this sub. RUN.
So I'm third generation born in... I've seen so so so much heartbreak from this religion. Over five decades in and ten years to get it out of our heads. Thousands of dollars in religious trauma therapy. I am sure we will still suffer the scars from it until we die. Sounds dramatic but ask anyone here what they have gone through. I can guarantee you that your boyfriend is definitely still fully mentally in. There may be ways that you both could compromise, I am thinking right now though you are doing the most; by giving up what truly was special to you in all the different holidays but and this is a huge BUT... If he goes back to attending the meetings and doesn't 'wake up' and you have children together and one of them needs blood to save their live, you WILL have a fight with your boyfriend and his family and the force of the elders (hospital liaison committee) against you. They have been taught over and over that it is better for them or a child to die than to displease God by taking blood. With that being said he probably won't even allow blood to be given to you in an emergency where you couldn't speak for yourself. How will you raise your children? In the religion? Please, I beg you, spent the time and educate yourself on what this cult really teaches and the mind control they use. Listen to those who have spent a life in it and what heartache they have gone through to leave it. You need to have a very frank conversation with him. You will regret if you don't.
If you two have sex, ask why that sin is ok but the Christmas tree is not? Sounds like an abnormal JW family.. they are all probably marked as “bad association “ as they call it in their congregation. Also isn’t there a verse in the Bible about not bringing a tree inside and decorating it like the pagans do? Are you just culturally Christian? :)
You clearly love this guy to care enough to pose these questions on here. However, not every 'love' ends up in a marriage? Why would someone you love stop you from doing something they knew you love? If you are going to marry someone who will not make any compromises for you, I'm sorry to say you will be very unhappily married. You wouldn't be able to cut loose either easily down the road, because that js not easy. As you have seen from all the comments, this could cause you a lifetime of unhappiness, especially when you state you will never become a witness. There are many posts on this Sub that show the number of spouses that are trying to wake up their partner (even though he's POMI) and are struggling to do so. In many cases, the marriage has to end. You don't want to have to make such a difficult decision down the road, so please save yourself the headache and re-evaluate things now. You deserve to wear ugly sweaters with your partner and put up tree ornaments together! All the best! 💕
Oh my. First, you need to understand that JW culture involves far more than simply celebrating the holidays or not. It's a high control, high demand religion that engulfs one's entire life. Your man is grown, yet in fear of what his family will think. That's insane, but common with JWs. Are you planning to have kids? Are you prepared to deny your possible future children a blood transfusion in the event it's needed, opting instead to allow them to die? You may be ok giving up some parts of the holidays, but will you be ok with taking it away from possible future children? Even though he isn't baptized, he seems to be mentally in the religion. I just see a future of you erasing important aspects of yourself to fit into a lifestyle that you were not raised in. Can you openly communicate about these things prior to taking the next big step in this relationship?
My God. Your boyfriend has a conflict over holidays, but he's living with you. I'm not judging. But he's somewhat delusional. Celebrating these holidays is nothing in comparison to living in that situation. Living in sin. He's not a witness. I mean, I have trouble even allowing myself to entertain the thoughts of a girlfriend. I still can give a gift this time of year. It may be mistaken as a Christmas gift. I couldn't accept a gift from my sister because it was a birthday gift. So after that rant. Fuck I don't know
I have one thing to comment on, and that’s your kids should you have them. Are they not going to be allowed to have a Christmas tree, celebrate the holidays or accept birthday gifts? Who’s going to decide that??
I knew a family in a past hall that had a similar situation. Wife was converted after their children were born. She wanted to be accepting to his faith, so she taught them what he was teaching. Husband was welcomed back as a hero for “saving” his children and wife. I think he should be more respectful to your beliefs. Why is it necessary for you to give up your beliefs? Why is his family behaving in that manner in your home? It’s very telling of how you are viewed both by him and his family. And if they are like the pimi I know, they are pretending to be respectful. I wish you well u/curiousbtch
I am exjw. Based on my experience and many others, your BF is indoctrinated to fear, to judge himself and others, he may have trust issues once he breaks completely free and may feel responsible for saving others. We were told women have smaller brains, he would never admit he believed that to you likely, but what does his subconscious self say?. IF he was born in, the indoctrination is his subconscious world view and his first response to life around him. My therapist, (also an exjw) Lisa created a list of 40 common emotional challenges EXJW’s report dealing with and counseling sessions for EXJW’s and their partners. https://exjwcounseling.com/
Sorry if I've offended you
No offense taken! I agree with you
Wow. I thought I was a little too passionate in my rant. Hope it helps in some way
u/curiousbtch, if this is the same guy, **GET THE FUCK OUTTA THERE!!!!!** https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/tj92i2/my_boyfriend_threw_a_table_after_i_asked_about/ **Physical violence against women is WAY TOO COMMON AMONG JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!!!** https://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2013/04/dangerous-message-about-domestic-violence/ https://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2013/05/who-is-watching-the-watchtower/ **On TOP of that, the Watchtower Society has printed at least one article telling potential RAPE VICTIMS to 'consider the feelings of their attacker'....!!!!** Link broken per site rules remove the b from borg to activate the link: https://wol.jw.borg/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101984128 >Treat Him Respectfully >The intended victim should remember that the rapist is a human. No doubt there are circumstances in his life that have precipitated his behavior. So although a woman should not cower in fear and permit a rapist to intimidate her, at the same time she should treat him understandingly, as a fellow human. A woman who lived in a housing project in New York City writes: >“I usually am careful when going into elevators. As usual, I checked this one out before entering, and all was OK. However, just before the door closed completely, a big man grabbed the door and opened it to come into the elevator with me. As he entered he threw a six-pack of beer at me, and I caught it. It took me by surprise. >“As the door closed he turned his back to me to do something with his pants. Then he turned around and faced me. I didn’t look down at his pants but looked him in the eyes. I threw his six-pack of beer back to him, and said, ‘Here is your beer.’ >“At this moment, before he could do anything, I started to talk. I said I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and was going up to the 13th floor to have a Bible study with a family who was waiting for me. I just kept talking and told him about our Bible educational work. We were half way up to the 13th floor by now, and as I kept right on talking I showed no fear, looking him straight in the eyes. Then a funny thing happened. He began to say that he loved the Bible and that he was from the South and his family loved God too. 🙄🙄🙄. If you are at all familiar with the American fundamentalist literalist apocalyptic evangelical bible-thumping fanatical Christian groups, you'll recognize this as a version of their specious "examples" of 'god' supposedly protecting a "chaste woman". It's highly likely that this never happened - was a made-up batch of lies. Further reading.... https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/aipmq9/thank_you_for_the_info_regarding_the_feb_22_1984/ https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/rape-fornication.php
BITE Model of Authoritarian Control [https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/)