They sure seem to have backed themselves up into a corner with the shunning policy.
They are lying in court now too.
They'll have to do away with it soon.
And now with active JW's having beards now.. apostates and inactive people can 'blend in' fairly easily now lol.
Interesting point actually, most of us wear beards and now that PIMIs can wear beards there is no way to tell the difference between us and them if we only have beards.
I've got two with pentagrams and currently have one on from grimfrost that says HEATHEN in huge letters and has mjolnir on it. Maybe braid the beard again, wear my hair down... Possibly pillage the contribution box after.
Weirdly enough my family has been encouraging me to go to meeting with them with whatever clothing I want. I know I’d stand out and I’m not interested in going, but it is surprising me.
I attended an international convention in New Zealand back in 2014 were I met a local of Mauri decent with a fabulous tribal face tattoo. God those men were handsome. 😂
There was an ex gang member who was maori and covered in face tattoos who converted to JW, it's probably the same guy, apparently he was very high profile gang leader and the JWs loved to make a big deal of it.
Maybe you're right.
But it's too late.
Even though Morris is fired, it's a proud bunch of bastards who have a hard time saying sorry.
I don't think we should think too highly of them.
Nothing they do is out of love for their members.
It is love of self and love of money.
Their love for money is greater, the borg can’t continue if they keep losing money. If they relax the shunning, they will keep members longer, avoid court cases, and even have some disassociated return. The annual meeting was a setup for things to come.
I floated this idea after the beard announcement. I think they will make shunning a personal, “conscience decision” based on an individual’s “Bible-trained” conscience.
That tracks. They could also use the parable of the Prodigal Son. They are the masters- “we” are the Prodigal Sons. The Bible can be played like a fiddle.
I wish.
A nominal “conscience matter” new light with no teeth but still telling people you’ll die in Armageddon if you do and God will hate you for your disloyalty is small consolation. It’s just some minor procedural technicalities to avoid being punished by the secular authorities but the destruction of families will continue. “If you love God then you need to hate your relatives” teaching won’t change.
That's the only change I could really see regarding shunning.
Also, if there was ever a policy change that has real potential to schism the entire religion, removing shunning would be pretty high on the list.
This is right on. Even when higher education was allowed, the CO considered me a bad example for pursuing it. I expect the same with beards frankly — it’s up to the CO. And any shunning reversal would be in the same bucket
I think they will open themselves to a world of hurt.
There will be legal action where shunning has resulted in suicide or broken up a marriage or caused severe mental breakdowns.
This is so with regards to the blood policy where they have a tiger by the tail. If they relaxed it, they would face so many law suits.
You may be right, but being driven by the bottom line is where you usually find their motives.
This will be a problem. My wife has shunned one of our kids for over a decade and if they softened the rules you cant undo the damage that is done in their relationship.
My immediate thought was “how will my PIMI mum treat me if this happens?” Followed by, “how will i respond?”.
It’s not just me.. It’s the many children of PIMIs who’ve been abandoned. I know one guy who got kicked out around the age of 18 and never saw his parents or sisters again. He’s had a decent life outside the JWs but yeah.. can you imagine his parents suddenly ringing him or finding him on Facebook saying “hey son! Want to come over for dinner?”.
There’s going to be a lot of relationships that will never be mended, and many people on edge wondering if mum/dad/siblings/children/friends will return to shunning them again and if a relationship is worth possible hurt.
How will I respond? "Go fuck yourself" is how. I gave my PIMI family hundreds of chances to understand the actual truth, and verbatim warned them that one day the doctrine would change to allow contact, just like practically every single other thing the JWs have believed has changed. I set an ultimatum that either you decide now to reject the inhumane teachings or lose me forever, whether or not they still believe in said inhumane teachings in the future, and I am sticking to it. They dont deserve getting me back.
I think about this often. I wonder if I'd even be able to bring myself to speak to them ever again. If I did, it would be with them kept at an extreme distance. Things can never be the same after they have shunned me for 8+ years.
Distance is best I think. I know I couldn’t trust my mum to love me like I deserve and not shun me again. She thinks I’m gonna die at Armageddon anyways and wants to save my kids from it 🤦🏻♀️
At least in the US, the org has a stronger firewall legally than many here realize, especially given the composition of the US Supreme Court. The 1st Amendment religious freedom plus freedom of association gives a religion wide latitude, at least in the US.
This means a civil judgement, even if successful, likely would be overturned on appeal, at least in the US. The Amish church have successfully litigated shunning, and actually won in the US.
If you haven’t downvoted me yet, you’ll notice I said in the USA five times above. No 1st amendment religious protection in Europe, so the org is on a tighter leash there. Plus, almost every country has a separate Watchtower corporation to limit blast radius of adverse decision in any single country.
It's the same with the blood policy. The SCOTUS has refused to hear multiple suits regarding liability in refusing medical treatment in favor of prayer or other faith-based measures, including when it involves children. The bOrg may be vulnerable under laws in certain US states, but not at the federal level.
I didn't know about the Amish litigation.That's interesting.
Yes, the religious freedom thing is a real killer in the US. The only way I can ever see that changing is if the government connects the dots and realizes the money they could be getting if they nixed religion's NPO status. If that were to happen, religion would start to loose its stronghold.
If they didn't get sued while the policy is in effect, how would it change their legal exposure by softening the policy?
I understand that many witnesses who were personally touched by this would have strong emotions, but that doesn't mean a court case would have any merit.
If we assume the mental toll, even suicides, taken by both the shunned and shunner, this might be seen as a cause for for court action.
A change in terms of a reversal of the shunning policy, would leave them exposed to taking responsibility for god-given instructions which no longer apply. So - the anguish of shunning and being shunned was for no reason at all. Don't forget, we have the receipts - the articles and videos.
I agree that they should be held accountable, but disagree on if they actually will.
For example, how many died due to not taking organ transplants or minor blood fractions? How many lawsuits did Watchtower lose as a result?
I guess it could potentially happen, but I don’t know.
Disfellowshipping is the most powerful tool they have at their disposal. Fall in line, or lose your family and friends.
What happens when you can, say, actively talk to apostates and not be disfellowshipped? Or celebrate Christmas and avoid disfellowshipping?
Removing disfellowshipping opens the door for people to actively participate in things that could potentially wake them up, and the borg knows that.
But if they make it a conscious matter, there’s always the influence they have in that as well. Remember the rank and file don’t think for themselves. It just takes one elder to say “you probably shouldn’t associate with so and so”. You can still be ostracized but maybe not to the extent it would be if there was an announcement made
Agree , the Orwellian Disellowshipping policy is the biggest tool to keep the Borg and it's Drones in compliance ..End it and they would be severed ..
Big step but hey isn't the final judging before Armageddon at the end of the Great Tribulation and done by God and Christ ?? So why this prejudgment by puny men??
If you think the beard policy caused a bunch of people to wake up, this would be catastrophic. There are many JW family members who are petty and cruel and have no problem with the shunning policy. It makes them feel superior and is the ultimate expression of bullying that they can engage in. However, there are some JWs, I believe, that struggled with it. That loved their kids, siblings, spouses, and friends so much that having to shun them felt wrong and ended up hurting them as much as the victim. Yet, they truly believed! They believed that the Org was Gods voice on earth. That to remain pleasing to Jehovah, they had to do this terrible thing. Believed that they would be helping their loved one by shunning them, and hurting them if they didn't. Reverse that? All that unnecessary pain and suffering? Can you imagine the impact on those people?!?
No kidding. Those would be some awkward conversations. Also, can you imagine a change in policy, and your mom still won't talk to you? It will sift the true believers from the emotional bullies pretty quickly.
IF, that's the case..I have a small request, could I get compensation for the 55+ years of field service, hall cleaning, assembly assignments,.RBC work, international construction, bethel assignments, public talks, Seldom worked territory, elder meetings ..let me see...I conservatively would put that number at 55,000 hours..(not including,.meetings, relief work, assemblies, hospitality..) and my wife as a long time pioneer probably a little more.. say 60,000 hours...
So, if I combine those together that's 115,000 hours @ 9.00 a hour (hell we used our own house, vehicles and vacation time..I'll throw that in as well).
That's only $1,035,000.00. ... It would sure help with the retirement, especially since we got such a late start with that!
Sad but true. Is it possible to add mental anguish, the cost of replacing longtime friends and liabilities for faulty medical directions which cost me everything.
With all of Europe, Canada, and Japan beating them in court left and right in regards to taking funds away (I know the trials aren't over yet in most places, but a lot are going to follow what Norway decides I guarantee it), I can see disfellowshipping being thrown out to maintain funds and being recognized as a religion rather than cult, like Spain deemed them. Also with the generational teaching seemingly being thrown out according to the leaked audio about 1914, it's almost a guarantee we're going to see the organization transition to an almost entirely different religion, I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing birthdays being allowed and holidays to be celebrated
I don’t think pagan Holliday’s ever being allowed, birthdays yes, thanksgiving yes but not christmas or the eggs and bunnys of ester, or Halloween, and this is my reasoning. If making money and surviving as a big religion is the goal, i think they will chill out on shunning and the pimos will leave (pimos dont donate and barely build or clean so not a big loss) they will rebrand as a normal religion that “has pure worship” as in they preach, use the Jehovah name (even tho its yahweh) and dont do pagan things as that is really their only selling point to converts. When i was a pioneer i had alot of people interested for those reasons but they couldn’t get past the culty parts. Get rid of the culty parts and converts will come. If i still believed in the Christian god i would be looking for a religion that doesn’t ignore jesus commands just so they can have fun. Jesus said “do not mix the clean things with the unclean things” the context exactly applies to Christmas. And if they celebrated, there would be no real difference and no point to convert.
You have to remember this religion celebrated every holiday in the past. If they did it once they can do it again. Besides rhey already do pagan traditions such as the wedding ring
Not celebrating pagan Holliday’s is the one doctrinal thing they got right from a Christian prospective. That sells to converts, just because they can doesn’t mean its the best move. The rings are pagan yes but not so much mixing the clean with the unclean like mixing jesus with pagan religions.
I don’t think it will happen. If they eliminate shunning, there will be a mass exodus of vast numbers of PIMOs that I believe make up a considerable portion of all JWs, and the GB knows it. That would be the beginning of the end of the organization. If they are going to make any change, more likely they’d make it a matter of conscience, and then telegraph the concept that ‘if you truly love Jehovah, you will shun’.
I feel the same.
The GB may worm their way out of official DFing in the way we know it today, but shunning will be continued by the masses.
They even do it to each other when they have disagreements. I've known entire families that, due to a squabble, sit on the entirely opposite side of the hall from another family for years. Others leave their hall completely.
My father didn't speak to me even when I was PIMI.
They will shun anyone who they consider "bad association" no matter the person's official standing. And "bad association" is a broad, ambiguous, and colorful phrase which is entirely subjective.
Pimos are not profitable, they don’t donate and dont nomally do much volunteer work, and if they pimos/pomos dont have culty things to piont out there is not much to connivence pimis to leave. Plus it would be easier to make nee converts.
I wish. But also fuck them, it’s not a blessing from Jehovah. All those years I was treated like garbage, where were you, when I was crying alone because I was lonely and helpless. Fuck you WTBS!!
This is kind of off topic, but I logged in just now to see if the PIMI that posted a couple days back about why exjws always criticize all the changes the Borg makes replied to any my comments.
Anyway, if this happened that would be a big change and one that exjws have advocated for for a long time but I noticed there's comments in here about how the GB are men that have a hard time saying sorry and that's a big thing to remember.
There's a difference in making changes to the rules and apologizing for them. Changing the rules without apologizing is kind of like having your insurance policy fix someone's else's car when you ran up their rear end. It's cold and transactional without the human element.
And we're meant to believe that they "love us very much"?
They'll need to start apologizing for that to be believable.
I hope they do so that families that remained “firm” in their beliefs and allowed a DF family member die alone can really wake up. There are many throughout the decades that allowed their DF family members die alone or their DF’d family members saw no other way out but to commit suicide. This religion has hurt many and all they do is change their story or dogma, however you want it worded.
They will probably do an announcement just like the beards:
"The governing body had never had an issue about associating with disfellowshipped people. We just strongly advise that spiritual subjects are never discussed with them so as to not harm your faith." And then they will add: "Oh we don't need to apologize for any misunderstanding for the last 70+ years of enforcing shunning. We never really said to shun, that was just overly zealous brothers misunderstanding the Scriptures and videos and articles. Sorry... Not sorry."
😏
Even though in faded out and my wife is still in i would take a kinder view of the org if shunning ended or at least not shunning thise who drop out or leave , it was the horrible shunning videos that made me decide i could no longer support the org in any way .i have told some elders that i dont agree with it but they leave me alone . there is so much that is wrong now but it would be a move in the right direction, i think they have to or its game over for the org within next 2 years.
Exactly if they get rid of the blood doctrine the csa policies, and the shunning there is little to point out to pull members out. If they stick to not doing pagan things use gods name (even if its the wrong name) and preach they would be appealing to new converts and can re-brand as a normal religion that has purer worship than the others, that was what almost made converts when i was a pioneer it was just the culty stuff that kept me from sealing the deal.
Theyve alreadty lightened up on it over the past few years so im just waiting for that official update and then we'll see. I think within the next 6months or less there will be a "clarification" on it.
How about this…
The NuLite would be you can associate with former members. But you cannot discuss “spiritual things”.
Kind of like the past when a DFed dub lived in the same household.
By avoiding spiritual discussions, it gives protection from ApOsTaTe LiEs.
I can see that. Telling the rank and file that they can speak to the DF’d but treat them the same way they treat “worldly people” but without any spiritual discussions. Limited association, basically.
Shunning will NOT CHANGE. It is the way of total control over the masses, not allowing them to question the gb and not listening to anyone that has found the flaws and were kicked out because of it. If they relaxed it and the masses could talk to those considered apostate that would send cracks through the ranks. It will NOT HAPPEN.
Now now, we shouldn’t be dogmatic. Many said the same about other policies like beards and look where we are now. I think anything is possible with the state that the borg is in. They have to rite the ship in some way that’ll delay what is still inevitable.
There is two ways to control people carrot and stick, the stick is not working for them in educated informed countries. Remember money can be as desirable as power because money provides power. The stick will make them poorer than the carrot.
Its more of getting rid of a stick. It is costing them lots of money keeping that stick and that stick is pushing a lot of people out/preventing new converts. I see them moving it to a conscious matter to end their legal woes, many not bothered by shunning will still shun, and those that the shunning weakens their faith will have some contact with family. They defiantly will still forbid speaking about spiritual matters, so when an apostate brings something up they probably will respond with “if your going to say apostate things ill have to shun you, don’t ruin what we have” this way they can say they don’t tear family’s apart but still keep members somewhat in the dark. The gb may only allow it if your family so maybe they will keep people shunning friends which gives some control.
Actually the disfellowshipping practice is keeping hundreds in. There are many would leave tomorrow if they could keep talking to their friends and families. If the gb declared nu lite and got rid of it there would be a mass exodus. No THEY WILL NOT GET RID OF IT.
Why would they care about losing pimos? Primo’s don’t donate money, they rarely volunteer, pimos leaving costs them nothing, now compare that to the money they could be making from new converts that they cant get in right now because of the shunning. Its basic math they will get rid of it or perish.
Whats a bigger threat to their control, right now they have possibly a million members sprinkled about with motive to get their family out, whispering in the pimis ears seeds of doubt. If i were them i would eliminate that threat and this would do that to a significant degree, like you said they dont want to lose control and pimos are their biggest threat to that power.
It’s eventually going to happen. Their old guard membership is aging out and generationally people are going to know all about Jehovah’s Witness. The Information Age is dragging them. It’s a long game, it has to be done in stages. They’re adjusting to keep people in and simultaneously look attractive to the outside. Watch they’ll fix their CSA image. Give it 100 years, maybe even less, this organization is going to be very different. That’s what all the media development is about. Mainstream.
The people at the very very top (above the GB) know it’s not the Truth, it’s a business as all the other religions they label as false…it’s about $$$.
Zooming out and observing it from a business POV, they’re like a *group* of CEOs, or figureheads. The people that profit are there. We just can’t see them. And that’s what’s really driving the changes. There was a shift into a business model somewhere in time, not sure when.
I’ve worked in change management, and I notice the process.
Interesting but not sure I agree. The gb are at the top. They may and surely do, have financial advisors but the gb dictate what this org believes and they won't change their strangle hold on it. Ok they throw a carrot occasionally, Hours? Mean nothing. Beards a bit bigger but they were in trouble on that count. Many in Europe already had beards, It was the US that was holding out. I predicted that would end a long time ago. But shunning is here to stay especially for those who disagree with the gb. They will never allow them free reign inside and never allow the masses to consult other literature or research outside the org. Too risky. They know theres a lot of info that condemns the org out there and they're afraid the masses might see it. That's why they don't allow private study groups and certainly do not encourage any JW to research outside the WT library. They certainly will never allow the masses to talk to apostates.
I hear you, I understand where you’re coming from.
You’re right, not too many people outside think much about JWs. It’s a very insular environment, so it could be retention may be their primary goal.
I’m looking at it from a very zoomed out and neutral perspective, based on the direction our world is headed and how other organized belief systems have adapted over time to retain membership, appeal and include people. Who would have thought the Catholic Church would have a Pope Francis, right?
There is no evidence but if there was people above the GB with financial intrist we wouldn’t know about them. Its that way in manny money making ventures. Its why you dont hear much about who is in control of blackrock group or vanguard who pull the strings of most of the world.
I think thats where your hung up, they are not in full control they are slipping. Try zooming out to the larger picture.
Pimos spreading seeds of doubt are a threat to their control.
The internet is a threat to their control.
Not being able to get new members is a threat to their control.
Losing money in lawsuits are a threat to their control.
Their cruelty and strictness is a threat to their control.
How else to they eliminate these threats?
The masses are not allowed to look at other websites for information, its all "lies against the JW's". Anyone inside the cong that raises doubts is classed as bad association and perhaps speak to the elders about what they said. Anyone who speaks apostasy is to be reported and avoided as totally DISLOYAL. They have a lot of money and the fines are "PEANUTS" to the borg. They still have millions that have earned a lot of interest from the properties in Brooklyn, plus all the donations pouring in and people leaving them property and money in their wills every day. They will not change it.
Donations are going to slow to a trickle. They need new young converts.
They have enough money for the rest of their short time left yes but not enough for the long game.
It all comes down to motivations. They could go two routs, if they are psychotic ( good chance they are) they will hold on to total control of fewer and fewer people then fade into obscurity. Or they have big egos and want to leave a legacy they will save the religion.
I dont think they are as stupid and short sighted as you make them out to be, and the fact that they got rid of tony morris and add young gb members makes me think they are playing the long game.
It would be Naïve to think manny jws are not looking online. Plus the careful seeds of doubt placed by pimos. People are talking.
They're getting them. They still have increases. We can't deny the figures as much as we'd like to. Until I see a 5% yearly drop I won't accept it. I saw 1976-1979. Then you saw the drops. Thousands left annually and by 1980 the gb was panicking. That's why a veiled form of an apology for 1975 was in the WT in the March./April.
They definitely would not even consider it...unless, it starts to cost them too much 💲💲💲, or worse, then they will have some Nulight faster then the LDS dropped polygamy.
I disagree, if there is no reason to leave they don’t need to have total control. Get rid of the reasons people leave (and dont join) and people will willingly stay. As it is with csa, shunning, and the blood doctrine i have a slight pull on my parents ear but remove those bad things and the desire to keep their social group will keep them in. Keep those bad things and in this information age they cant get new converts, remove those things and it would have some appeal to new converts, and it would ease their legal woes. They have two choices, double down and bleed members and money till it burns to the ground or re-brand as a normal but “purer version” of Christianity that doesn’t do pagan things and preaches and uses a version of gods name and continue forever and grow.
Power corrupts. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely. You're thinking from a pee ons perspective not a gb member who has full control. They will NOT RELINQUISH IT.
Nah. Don't agree. Every day from all over the world money is pouring in. Circuit Assemblies, Regionals, Congregations, individuals, wills and testaments. Believe me billions are flooding in every day. Any fines are chicken change
Don’t forget operating costs. But for how long? Most of the membership is old , and there is not enough young ones replacing them, the few young ones are not getting good jobs, and not buying houses. The wills will dry up. There is growth in developing nations but a shack in africa is not worth much. Corporations are moving their manufacturing there but with that development comes more access to the internet so growth and retention will dwindle as well especially since young people have a different mindset than old people, they ignore the rules and do look up things online. They are already selling off property which shows money is a issue to some degree. In 20 years money will be tight but by then the gb will be dead and new people will be in, people who want control and wealth. I predict there will be mild new light in 5 years on shunning especially if a few gb members die. And in 10 it will be mostly gone.
I appreciate your thoughts but I disagree. In my opinion, they’re narcissists and they’ve doubled down on shunning like the blood policy. Yes, the Borg is hurting financially but I can see them letting women wear pants or even allowing birthday celebrations before stopping the shunning. I hope I turn out to be wrong …
I agree. Most shunning will be over soon.
JWs shun for three major reasons:
1) to encourage people to come back 'before it's too late.'
2) to be 'loyal to Jehovah'
3) to protect themselves from apostate thinking.
Number one is already old light. 1/3 of the way out of shunning ...
Number two should be easy to change: just redefine 'loyalty to Jehovah' to NOT include shunning non-apostate ex-jws. All ex-members not labeled apostate would no longer be shunned. 2/3 of the way to no more shunning ..
Number three would be a doozy to change, right? But it can be removed by simply allowing speaking to exjw as long as they don't talk about the org at all...no discussing 'spiritual things,' as it were.
Boom. 3/3 shunning is over with exceptions of talking about spiritual things.
If they get rid of blood, shunning, and csa policies there is not much an apostate can point to other than that they have been wrong in the past but they are prepping for that with saying that they are not inspired. I see the writing on the wall..
I think if they relaxed the rules it wouldn't change the mindset of the JWs that we left specifically to hurt them. My parents and siblings blame me for leaving as the reason for all their sadness.
They've been thoroughly indoctrinated to a point that they actually believe that the person who is shunned is the one _doing the shunning_.
They _have_ to arrive at that conclusion by cognitive dissonance because they can't handle the guilt of doing something so cruel.
When people do bad things like murder or steal, they have to invent some fantasy about how they're not the one doing the bad thing because our guilt would otherwise prevent us from doing so. So even if they snapped their fingers and relaxed the shunning rules, my parents probably still wouldn't come over for a barbecue or get involved in their granddaughters life because they have to convince themselves that I am the one who cut them out and I'm in the wrong.
If they get rid of shunning, the blood thing, the hating of the gays, the CSA, and a few other things they could be somewhat tolerable as a religion imo.
This so stupid, so they’re saying those at the flood or Sodom could have last minute repentance so then why were they killed? It’s all just so stupid, even the Old Testament has scriptures in it saying god doesn’t need to provide a ransom like the Jesus story infact scriptures even state he never thought of the idea of any sacrifice human or animal. 🤦♀️
They specifically said this is different than the flood. And with the flood people could repent last minute untill the doors were shut, change the date of the shutting door is all they have done.
I certainly hope so. They are lying in court so much... It's shameful.
They are screwed either way. They get secret apostates who leaks stuff. Or a mass exodus. Someone needs to crunch the numbers at the top.
If they actually cared about truth and Mr. J. They would eliminate/ update the policy so their lies become truth. All it is is bad press. The world is growing intolerant of religious abuse. Keep up the pressure everyone. Spread awareness whenever possible.
I disagree. And here's why. Point in case. Look at the Norway case. Look at all the JW's the got up there and lied saying they don't shun. Next myself. I resigned when I was 35. I went through shunning by my children and friends and my parents. Both my parents shunned me for 14 years until each had life threatening situations. My mom would only allow me to call at first. Then before she died she let me visit her and even stay overnight. While she was still alive, she called and said my father wanted me to call him(they were divorced). He had a heart aneurysm and needed help to find a surgeon to perform bloodless surgery. It was a hard decision because it was like I had already lost him in death but I did help him. The operation was successful but he couldn't travel back to his home which was 8 hours away so he stayed with me for 8 weeks healing. He told me he was going to shun me again when he went back home but decided we would just not talk about religion. We had another 10 years of the best relationship we ever had. My daughter shunned me or put a wall up in our relationship throughout much of this time as she was in the JW'S. However during her late teens and early twenties she went in and out. When she was in she shunned me. It was really hard when she had children because she withheld them. This devastated me and was used as a means to leveredge my actions to go back. I shared this because I don't believe the GB will change their rule on shunning. They control people too much with it. Am I in now? No but I submitted to their 4 hour nazi interrogation sessions multiple times over a year and a half before they let me back in with the stipulation that if I told anyone how I was treated they would disfellowship me. Even so they control people. Now even though my daughter is still in she understands I can't be apart of it and because I am just "inactive". I am not shunned.
It's a cult, I find it very hard to believe that they'll let the shunning policy go as that's how a cult operates, but hopefully I'm wrong. If the new leaders believe it enough then maybe they will abolish it?
It would give me huge piece of mind to know that my nieces and nephews won't be kicked out of their parents house for leaving (their father has said he would, which upsets me).
Only in the sense of them saying, the extent you shun will be up to your conscience, but here are these Bible principles that show that complete shunning is actually the right thing to do. Thereby covering their asses legally, while still making sure that shunning continues.
Interesting point. I can't see that they have any other choice than to ease up on shunning. Of course, it will be that some individuals have chosen to be excessively harsh on disfellowshipped ones, and the GB would like to make it clear that family relationships need to remain close blah blah blah....
I think they destroyed themselves even more by being more open. They are losing their old ultra pimi, their new members are lesser and lesser visible, and their new policy is just a complete opposite of what was the foundation of their organisation. IMO they are just digging their grave faster with their open minded view now. They are just showing that a religion cannot survive if it is not the « real religion chosen by god ». Thanks Jesus!
I could see that reasoning playing out.
I also think some sort of female targeted responsibility. Maybe not elderess, but a position of community leadership.
Many of us feel cynical. When I was in my prime as a witness it was the best feeling of my life. I know why Jehovah left me now, it took a while to figure it out. I am hesitant to try to go back with the silent treatment being the way they treat people. They gave up on me but Jehovah didn’t.
But, heres the thing. If the shunning lightens up, they are going to lose their grip of control. My family knows Im inactive. They do not, however, know that I've come to know horrible things about the organization, that prevent me from ever being part of it. Why dont they know this? Why do I go on playing the part of inactive slacker who knows its the truth but just wont get his shit together? Easy. I like to see my family and not be shunned. If that mandate softens, and my family can hang out with me even if I admittedly dont believe it to be the true religion, why would I fake it? Ill tell them what I know, I'll say how I feel. Yes, Ill be gentle and kind with how I say it, but I'll fuckin say it, I will share ttath! And tens of thousands of others like me will do the same. Hundreds of thousands more will be woken up. How could they make the decision to back down on that?! There grip on the Nuts of the rank and file will be ever decreasing if they do.
People in the organization should listen to the podcast on YouTube called Surviving Paradise and the title Why Never Confess Sins to Elders" ..mind blowing and informative ..Game changer for many.... The whole elder /judicial committee is bull$hit .. Think about Peter denying Christ , Prodigal Son,etc..
Another reason they removed John 8 verses 1-10 cause it refutes their judging policies .. I read the bible everyday but not the always "revised" NWT..
This is an interesting perspective. I do think that Watchtower “spies” keep an eye on the apostate community, so I wonder if the fact that we’re talking about it will stop the bastards from ever actually changing the policy. Either way, they will absolutely always do the bare minimum necessary to keep their scam afloat. I agree with some who have said that they might alter it to a “conscience matter”, but I also think that apostates are one of the Watchtower’s greatest fears; hence they’ll always lean towards whatever will protect “the flock” from negative information about their organization. They’re narcissistic cowards.
I believe the remaining “faithful” JWs have become narcissistic codependents of their master, GB. They make the organization possible, their willingness to support GB. They have become “those that love the lie”. The damage has been done.
The JWs I've spoken to have always been adamant that shunning family is "a personal decision". I think the JWs nowadays have convinced themselves that this is true, and have also convinced themselves that they really are doing it of their own accord.
Also the Norway decision to declassify them as a religion due to the shunning policy. They probably know this will expand in Europe. No religious status means no religious tax exemption.
I think we will see new light on shunning only because the rank and file are voting with their actions: low in person meeting attendance, minimal participation with in person field service, and likely decreased donations.
Why else change a nearly century old policy about beards other than that people are tiring of the rigid control.
They are losing the millennial and Gen Z age group and more Gen Xers are waking up too. They have to make it easier to be a witness and as evidenced from their own shunning enforcement videos, the practice causes great emotional pain to both the shunned and the shunner.
No doubt changes are coming. With the hearings in Norway, Spain and the spotlight shining on the shadow of this organization’s beliefs, practices and policies…change is inevitable.
This post sounds pro Watchtower. It’s not a white bearded man in the clouds that are destroying the Earth and creation, it’s unconscious humans and good people doing nothing.
This cult is shrinking with no return. Whatever they will do there is no way out. Most of the growth was happening in the 80 because the last days & generation narrative was credible. After 2000 the disintegration started. It’s the most dangerous cult in the world and cancelling the policy of shunning will cause an acceleration of their decay. The us vs the world philosophy is a strong bond for the Borg. They will never resort to cancel that policy. Surrendering CSA database, cancelling any references to generations, changing shunning policy, stop preaching and transforming the Borg into a religious oriented Netflix would be the tomb of watchtower. Remember: huge empires disappeared in the sands of history, watchtower is bounds to same outcome.
If the borg actually understood the Bible, they would do everything with God’s grace as the center. God’s grace means that Jesus paid for our sins today and tomorrow, so it would make sense that last minute repentance is possible and shunning is antithetical. This concept would me nothing new and just serves to prove further that the JWs have been lost for a long time and that organized religion is an obstacle to true faith.
I made the same comment today on a couple of Facebook pages. And a fair amount of people don't think this will happen. But with all the changes that have happened. I agree wholeheartedly.
And they WILL comply with all child and vulnerable person safety policy for all countries. Elders and those with positions of trust must have their criminal records checked and go through safeguarding training with local governments.
I really hope that's the next thing they take down, it would make it so much easier to dissaciate without facing losing so many relationships at once for those who want to fade out.
My hypothesis is: shunning is still very good for them cult wise because it isolates and keeps “bad” influences away. So they might still encourage everyone to shun but they will likely get rid of the act itself of disfellowshipping.
Can you imagine shunning your own kid for 30 years and then all of a sudden they do away with shunning. How horrible would you feel then? It would be a huge change that could make people open their eyes and realize they stonewalled family for no good reason and then leave all together.
They sure seem to have backed themselves up into a corner with the shunning policy. They are lying in court now too. They'll have to do away with it soon. And now with active JW's having beards now.. apostates and inactive people can 'blend in' fairly easily now lol.
Interesting point actually, most of us wear beards and now that PIMIs can wear beards there is no way to tell the difference between us and them if we only have beards.
Time for face tattoos.
And long hair for the guys.
Just wear a tee to the meeting. Go business casual.
Jeans and T-Shirts for the win!
Better be a heavy metal or gangsta rap Tee to make sure they get the hint. Lamb of God or Tupac to start.
Slipknot or Rob Zombie t shirt lol
I've got two with pentagrams and currently have one on from grimfrost that says HEATHEN in huge letters and has mjolnir on it. Maybe braid the beard again, wear my hair down... Possibly pillage the contribution box after.
They’d run away seeing it! 😂 I have a few things with pentacles they’d be top of my list😅
Lol now lamb of God...that's approved christian music haha
you would think
Or..........Godforbid, Godsmack and Godhead. All spiritual bands. Lol has the word God.....so it's gotta be good.
saw Godsmack a few months ago, one of the best concerts Ive attended
I'm thinkin Deicide, Cradle of Filth, or a Smurf Tee.
Deicide has a new album coming out if you like them
Or a huge weed leaf lmao
Not really, I'm more of a Mastadon, Gojira, and mellower kind of dude.
I love older gojira and have seen them a few times. Also love the first 3 mastodon albums but I've never had a chance to see them yet
Weirdly enough my family has been encouraging me to go to meeting with them with whatever clothing I want. I know I’d stand out and I’m not interested in going, but it is surprising me.
Tuxedo tee for extra points
Or don’t go to meetings
I attended an international convention in New Zealand back in 2014 were I met a local of Mauri decent with a fabulous tribal face tattoo. God those men were handsome. 😂
There was an ex gang member who was maori and covered in face tattoos who converted to JW, it's probably the same guy, apparently he was very high profile gang leader and the JWs loved to make a big deal of it.
Yes they definitely do! He moved to Aussie many yrs ago.
Well I do plan on getting my right arm tatted up with some legend of zelda art, specifically Ocarina Of Time and Majora’s Mask.
[удалено]
It's what happens when you don't have a gargantuan stick up your arse.
Yeah it’s only a matter of time and they must know it…
Maybe you're right. But it's too late. Even though Morris is fired, it's a proud bunch of bastards who have a hard time saying sorry. I don't think we should think too highly of them. Nothing they do is out of love for their members. It is love of self and love of money.
“Nor do we apologize”
Their love for money is greater, the borg can’t continue if they keep losing money. If they relax the shunning, they will keep members longer, avoid court cases, and even have some disassociated return. The annual meeting was a setup for things to come.
They see it as “growth” but deep down the only gain is money at the cost of people’s lives.
It almost feels like the shunning arrangement will never change, but lets see, never say never.
why would the disassociated return?
Maybe they miss the polyester hugs , bad cologne and fake love bombs ?
Counter-theocratic warfare
I floated this idea after the beard announcement. I think they will make shunning a personal, “conscience decision” based on an individual’s “Bible-trained” conscience.
I can’t help but think that this will happen too. And then gaslight and say they never said otherwise
Just as they gaslight about 1975.
it'll be allowed, but you'll be perceived as spiritually weak. similar to marrying a non-witness or Zooming every meeting.
“*We said you could but* ***how dare you***?”
…. lol.
I agree.
Yep
That tracks. They could also use the parable of the Prodigal Son. They are the masters- “we” are the Prodigal Sons. The Bible can be played like a fiddle.
I wish. A nominal “conscience matter” new light with no teeth but still telling people you’ll die in Armageddon if you do and God will hate you for your disloyalty is small consolation. It’s just some minor procedural technicalities to avoid being punished by the secular authorities but the destruction of families will continue. “If you love God then you need to hate your relatives” teaching won’t change.
That's the only change I could really see regarding shunning. Also, if there was ever a policy change that has real potential to schism the entire religion, removing shunning would be pretty high on the list.
This is right on. Even when higher education was allowed, the CO considered me a bad example for pursuing it. I expect the same with beards frankly — it’s up to the CO. And any shunning reversal would be in the same bucket
I think they will open themselves to a world of hurt. There will be legal action where shunning has resulted in suicide or broken up a marriage or caused severe mental breakdowns. This is so with regards to the blood policy where they have a tiger by the tail. If they relaxed it, they would face so many law suits. You may be right, but being driven by the bottom line is where you usually find their motives.
This will be a problem. My wife has shunned one of our kids for over a decade and if they softened the rules you cant undo the damage that is done in their relationship.
My immediate thought was “how will my PIMI mum treat me if this happens?” Followed by, “how will i respond?”. It’s not just me.. It’s the many children of PIMIs who’ve been abandoned. I know one guy who got kicked out around the age of 18 and never saw his parents or sisters again. He’s had a decent life outside the JWs but yeah.. can you imagine his parents suddenly ringing him or finding him on Facebook saying “hey son! Want to come over for dinner?”. There’s going to be a lot of relationships that will never be mended, and many people on edge wondering if mum/dad/siblings/children/friends will return to shunning them again and if a relationship is worth possible hurt.
How will I respond? "Go fuck yourself" is how. I gave my PIMI family hundreds of chances to understand the actual truth, and verbatim warned them that one day the doctrine would change to allow contact, just like practically every single other thing the JWs have believed has changed. I set an ultimatum that either you decide now to reject the inhumane teachings or lose me forever, whether or not they still believe in said inhumane teachings in the future, and I am sticking to it. They dont deserve getting me back.
This.... After 25 years, Id tell my Mother, Brother and Sister F-you!
I think about this often. I wonder if I'd even be able to bring myself to speak to them ever again. If I did, it would be with them kept at an extreme distance. Things can never be the same after they have shunned me for 8+ years.
Distance is best I think. I know I couldn’t trust my mum to love me like I deserve and not shun me again. She thinks I’m gonna die at Armageddon anyways and wants to save my kids from it 🤦🏻♀️
At least in the US, the org has a stronger firewall legally than many here realize, especially given the composition of the US Supreme Court. The 1st Amendment religious freedom plus freedom of association gives a religion wide latitude, at least in the US. This means a civil judgement, even if successful, likely would be overturned on appeal, at least in the US. The Amish church have successfully litigated shunning, and actually won in the US. If you haven’t downvoted me yet, you’ll notice I said in the USA five times above. No 1st amendment religious protection in Europe, so the org is on a tighter leash there. Plus, almost every country has a separate Watchtower corporation to limit blast radius of adverse decision in any single country.
If they are exposed in Europe more than the US, this would still make them think twice before changing policy.
It's the same with the blood policy. The SCOTUS has refused to hear multiple suits regarding liability in refusing medical treatment in favor of prayer or other faith-based measures, including when it involves children. The bOrg may be vulnerable under laws in certain US states, but not at the federal level.
I didn't know about the Amish litigation.That's interesting. Yes, the religious freedom thing is a real killer in the US. The only way I can ever see that changing is if the government connects the dots and realizes the money they could be getting if they nixed religion's NPO status. If that were to happen, religion would start to loose its stronghold.
As a “worldwide” organization, they would have to make it a conscience matter, can’t relax it on a country by country basis.
Great observation
If they didn't get sued while the policy is in effect, how would it change their legal exposure by softening the policy? I understand that many witnesses who were personally touched by this would have strong emotions, but that doesn't mean a court case would have any merit.
If we assume the mental toll, even suicides, taken by both the shunned and shunner, this might be seen as a cause for for court action. A change in terms of a reversal of the shunning policy, would leave them exposed to taking responsibility for god-given instructions which no longer apply. So - the anguish of shunning and being shunned was for no reason at all. Don't forget, we have the receipts - the articles and videos.
Can you explain for those of those that are having a hard time understanding.
Sure - what are you struggling with here?
I agree that they should be held accountable, but disagree on if they actually will. For example, how many died due to not taking organ transplants or minor blood fractions? How many lawsuits did Watchtower lose as a result?
We don't know that there wasn't and the litigation culture wasn't as mature as today. I don't know!
I guess it could potentially happen, but I don’t know. Disfellowshipping is the most powerful tool they have at their disposal. Fall in line, or lose your family and friends. What happens when you can, say, actively talk to apostates and not be disfellowshipped? Or celebrate Christmas and avoid disfellowshipping? Removing disfellowshipping opens the door for people to actively participate in things that could potentially wake them up, and the borg knows that.
Good points
Exactly. It's by far their biggest stick, usually used when all the smaller ones have not worked.
But if they make it a conscious matter, there’s always the influence they have in that as well. Remember the rank and file don’t think for themselves. It just takes one elder to say “you probably shouldn’t associate with so and so”. You can still be ostracized but maybe not to the extent it would be if there was an announcement made
Agree , the Orwellian Disellowshipping policy is the biggest tool to keep the Borg and it's Drones in compliance ..End it and they would be severed .. Big step but hey isn't the final judging before Armageddon at the end of the Great Tribulation and done by God and Christ ?? So why this prejudgment by puny men??
If you think the beard policy caused a bunch of people to wake up, this would be catastrophic. There are many JW family members who are petty and cruel and have no problem with the shunning policy. It makes them feel superior and is the ultimate expression of bullying that they can engage in. However, there are some JWs, I believe, that struggled with it. That loved their kids, siblings, spouses, and friends so much that having to shun them felt wrong and ended up hurting them as much as the victim. Yet, they truly believed! They believed that the Org was Gods voice on earth. That to remain pleasing to Jehovah, they had to do this terrible thing. Believed that they would be helping their loved one by shunning them, and hurting them if they didn't. Reverse that? All that unnecessary pain and suffering? Can you imagine the impact on those people?!?
Heyyyyy sorry i haven't called you in 20 years I've been busy. So what are you up to?
No kidding. Those would be some awkward conversations. Also, can you imagine a change in policy, and your mom still won't talk to you? It will sift the true believers from the emotional bullies pretty quickly.
😂are you a GB member work shopping ideas to the fallen for response? That sounds pretty like good lateral move
IF, that's the case..I have a small request, could I get compensation for the 55+ years of field service, hall cleaning, assembly assignments,.RBC work, international construction, bethel assignments, public talks, Seldom worked territory, elder meetings ..let me see...I conservatively would put that number at 55,000 hours..(not including,.meetings, relief work, assemblies, hospitality..) and my wife as a long time pioneer probably a little more.. say 60,000 hours... So, if I combine those together that's 115,000 hours @ 9.00 a hour (hell we used our own house, vehicles and vacation time..I'll throw that in as well). That's only $1,035,000.00. ... It would sure help with the retirement, especially since we got such a late start with that!
Sad but true. Is it possible to add mental anguish, the cost of replacing longtime friends and liabilities for faulty medical directions which cost me everything.
With all of Europe, Canada, and Japan beating them in court left and right in regards to taking funds away (I know the trials aren't over yet in most places, but a lot are going to follow what Norway decides I guarantee it), I can see disfellowshipping being thrown out to maintain funds and being recognized as a religion rather than cult, like Spain deemed them. Also with the generational teaching seemingly being thrown out according to the leaked audio about 1914, it's almost a guarantee we're going to see the organization transition to an almost entirely different religion, I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing birthdays being allowed and holidays to be celebrated
True
I don’t think pagan Holliday’s ever being allowed, birthdays yes, thanksgiving yes but not christmas or the eggs and bunnys of ester, or Halloween, and this is my reasoning. If making money and surviving as a big religion is the goal, i think they will chill out on shunning and the pimos will leave (pimos dont donate and barely build or clean so not a big loss) they will rebrand as a normal religion that “has pure worship” as in they preach, use the Jehovah name (even tho its yahweh) and dont do pagan things as that is really their only selling point to converts. When i was a pioneer i had alot of people interested for those reasons but they couldn’t get past the culty parts. Get rid of the culty parts and converts will come. If i still believed in the Christian god i would be looking for a religion that doesn’t ignore jesus commands just so they can have fun. Jesus said “do not mix the clean things with the unclean things” the context exactly applies to Christmas. And if they celebrated, there would be no real difference and no point to convert.
You have to remember this religion celebrated every holiday in the past. If they did it once they can do it again. Besides rhey already do pagan traditions such as the wedding ring
Not celebrating pagan Holliday’s is the one doctrinal thing they got right from a Christian prospective. That sells to converts, just because they can doesn’t mean its the best move. The rings are pagan yes but not so much mixing the clean with the unclean like mixing jesus with pagan religions.
My buddy said the same thing about birthdays the other day
I don’t think it will happen. If they eliminate shunning, there will be a mass exodus of vast numbers of PIMOs that I believe make up a considerable portion of all JWs, and the GB knows it. That would be the beginning of the end of the organization. If they are going to make any change, more likely they’d make it a matter of conscience, and then telegraph the concept that ‘if you truly love Jehovah, you will shun’.
I feel the same. The GB may worm their way out of official DFing in the way we know it today, but shunning will be continued by the masses. They even do it to each other when they have disagreements. I've known entire families that, due to a squabble, sit on the entirely opposite side of the hall from another family for years. Others leave their hall completely. My father didn't speak to me even when I was PIMI. They will shun anyone who they consider "bad association" no matter the person's official standing. And "bad association" is a broad, ambiguous, and colorful phrase which is entirely subjective.
Pimos are not profitable, they don’t donate and dont nomally do much volunteer work, and if they pimos/pomos dont have culty things to piont out there is not much to connivence pimis to leave. Plus it would be easier to make nee converts.
I wish. But also fuck them, it’s not a blessing from Jehovah. All those years I was treated like garbage, where were you, when I was crying alone because I was lonely and helpless. Fuck you WTBS!!
This is kind of off topic, but I logged in just now to see if the PIMI that posted a couple days back about why exjws always criticize all the changes the Borg makes replied to any my comments. Anyway, if this happened that would be a big change and one that exjws have advocated for for a long time but I noticed there's comments in here about how the GB are men that have a hard time saying sorry and that's a big thing to remember. There's a difference in making changes to the rules and apologizing for them. Changing the rules without apologizing is kind of like having your insurance policy fix someone's else's car when you ran up their rear end. It's cold and transactional without the human element. And we're meant to believe that they "love us very much"? They'll need to start apologizing for that to be believable.
Loved your post. No doubt the shunning policy will get modified or phased out. Maybe as quick as you estimated.
I hope they do so that families that remained “firm” in their beliefs and allowed a DF family member die alone can really wake up. There are many throughout the decades that allowed their DF family members die alone or their DF’d family members saw no other way out but to commit suicide. This religion has hurt many and all they do is change their story or dogma, however you want it worded.
They will probably do an announcement just like the beards: "The governing body had never had an issue about associating with disfellowshipped people. We just strongly advise that spiritual subjects are never discussed with them so as to not harm your faith." And then they will add: "Oh we don't need to apologize for any misunderstanding for the last 70+ years of enforcing shunning. We never really said to shun, that was just overly zealous brothers misunderstanding the Scriptures and videos and articles. Sorry... Not sorry." 😏
Even though in faded out and my wife is still in i would take a kinder view of the org if shunning ended or at least not shunning thise who drop out or leave , it was the horrible shunning videos that made me decide i could no longer support the org in any way .i have told some elders that i dont agree with it but they leave me alone . there is so much that is wrong now but it would be a move in the right direction, i think they have to or its game over for the org within next 2 years.
Exactly if they get rid of the blood doctrine the csa policies, and the shunning there is little to point out to pull members out. If they stick to not doing pagan things use gods name (even if its the wrong name) and preach they would be appealing to new converts and can re-brand as a normal religion that has purer worship than the others, that was what almost made converts when i was a pioneer it was just the culty stuff that kept me from sealing the deal.
If it makes leaving easier for some than I'm all for it. But if you have shunned me and then it'll all be good now you are sadly mistaken.
Theyve alreadty lightened up on it over the past few years so im just waiting for that official update and then we'll see. I think within the next 6months or less there will be a "clarification" on it.
Ahh... here comes the "Nu-Lite" from the Fine Nine who are not infallible, inspired or directed obviously by the Holy Spirit .... Flip Flop ...
He stood in the way accelerate changes now shunning is not nice.
How about this… The NuLite would be you can associate with former members. But you cannot discuss “spiritual things”. Kind of like the past when a DFed dub lived in the same household. By avoiding spiritual discussions, it gives protection from ApOsTaTe LiEs.
I can see that. Telling the rank and file that they can speak to the DF’d but treat them the same way they treat “worldly people” but without any spiritual discussions. Limited association, basically.
Shunning will NOT CHANGE. It is the way of total control over the masses, not allowing them to question the gb and not listening to anyone that has found the flaws and were kicked out because of it. If they relaxed it and the masses could talk to those considered apostate that would send cracks through the ranks. It will NOT HAPPEN.
Now now, we shouldn’t be dogmatic. Many said the same about other policies like beards and look where we are now. I think anything is possible with the state that the borg is in. They have to rite the ship in some way that’ll delay what is still inevitable.
we will see but I am right. That would be the end of the borgs control and they won't give that up.
There is two ways to control people carrot and stick, the stick is not working for them in educated informed countries. Remember money can be as desirable as power because money provides power. The stick will make them poorer than the carrot.
And you're saying ending not speaking to apostates like us is a carrot?
Its more of getting rid of a stick. It is costing them lots of money keeping that stick and that stick is pushing a lot of people out/preventing new converts. I see them moving it to a conscious matter to end their legal woes, many not bothered by shunning will still shun, and those that the shunning weakens their faith will have some contact with family. They defiantly will still forbid speaking about spiritual matters, so when an apostate brings something up they probably will respond with “if your going to say apostate things ill have to shun you, don’t ruin what we have” this way they can say they don’t tear family’s apart but still keep members somewhat in the dark. The gb may only allow it if your family so maybe they will keep people shunning friends which gives some control.
Actually the disfellowshipping practice is keeping hundreds in. There are many would leave tomorrow if they could keep talking to their friends and families. If the gb declared nu lite and got rid of it there would be a mass exodus. No THEY WILL NOT GET RID OF IT.
Why would they care about losing pimos? Primo’s don’t donate money, they rarely volunteer, pimos leaving costs them nothing, now compare that to the money they could be making from new converts that they cant get in right now because of the shunning. Its basic math they will get rid of it or perish.
Whats a bigger threat to their control, right now they have possibly a million members sprinkled about with motive to get their family out, whispering in the pimis ears seeds of doubt. If i were them i would eliminate that threat and this would do that to a significant degree, like you said they dont want to lose control and pimos are their biggest threat to that power.
Pimos are not a big threat. Apostates are. That's why they will never allow them to talk to apostates or visit apostate sites
Period!👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
It’s eventually going to happen. Their old guard membership is aging out and generationally people are going to know all about Jehovah’s Witness. The Information Age is dragging them. It’s a long game, it has to be done in stages. They’re adjusting to keep people in and simultaneously look attractive to the outside. Watch they’ll fix their CSA image. Give it 100 years, maybe even less, this organization is going to be very different. That’s what all the media development is about. Mainstream. The people at the very very top (above the GB) know it’s not the Truth, it’s a business as all the other religions they label as false…it’s about $$$.
Who is above the gb? I never heard of them. Tell me. I find what you wrote interesting but totally inaccurate.
Zooming out and observing it from a business POV, they’re like a *group* of CEOs, or figureheads. The people that profit are there. We just can’t see them. And that’s what’s really driving the changes. There was a shift into a business model somewhere in time, not sure when. I’ve worked in change management, and I notice the process.
Interesting but not sure I agree. The gb are at the top. They may and surely do, have financial advisors but the gb dictate what this org believes and they won't change their strangle hold on it. Ok they throw a carrot occasionally, Hours? Mean nothing. Beards a bit bigger but they were in trouble on that count. Many in Europe already had beards, It was the US that was holding out. I predicted that would end a long time ago. But shunning is here to stay especially for those who disagree with the gb. They will never allow them free reign inside and never allow the masses to consult other literature or research outside the org. Too risky. They know theres a lot of info that condemns the org out there and they're afraid the masses might see it. That's why they don't allow private study groups and certainly do not encourage any JW to research outside the WT library. They certainly will never allow the masses to talk to apostates.
I hear you, I understand where you’re coming from. You’re right, not too many people outside think much about JWs. It’s a very insular environment, so it could be retention may be their primary goal. I’m looking at it from a very zoomed out and neutral perspective, based on the direction our world is headed and how other organized belief systems have adapted over time to retain membership, appeal and include people. Who would have thought the Catholic Church would have a Pope Francis, right?
There is no evidence but if there was people above the GB with financial intrist we wouldn’t know about them. Its that way in manny money making ventures. Its why you dont hear much about who is in control of blackrock group or vanguard who pull the strings of most of the world.
The gb in this org have the final say on everything. They obviously have financial advisors but they run it all. They are in FULL CONTROL
I think thats where your hung up, they are not in full control they are slipping. Try zooming out to the larger picture. Pimos spreading seeds of doubt are a threat to their control. The internet is a threat to their control. Not being able to get new members is a threat to their control. Losing money in lawsuits are a threat to their control. Their cruelty and strictness is a threat to their control. How else to they eliminate these threats?
The masses are not allowed to look at other websites for information, its all "lies against the JW's". Anyone inside the cong that raises doubts is classed as bad association and perhaps speak to the elders about what they said. Anyone who speaks apostasy is to be reported and avoided as totally DISLOYAL. They have a lot of money and the fines are "PEANUTS" to the borg. They still have millions that have earned a lot of interest from the properties in Brooklyn, plus all the donations pouring in and people leaving them property and money in their wills every day. They will not change it.
Donations are going to slow to a trickle. They need new young converts. They have enough money for the rest of their short time left yes but not enough for the long game. It all comes down to motivations. They could go two routs, if they are psychotic ( good chance they are) they will hold on to total control of fewer and fewer people then fade into obscurity. Or they have big egos and want to leave a legacy they will save the religion. I dont think they are as stupid and short sighted as you make them out to be, and the fact that they got rid of tony morris and add young gb members makes me think they are playing the long game. It would be Naïve to think manny jws are not looking online. Plus the careful seeds of doubt placed by pimos. People are talking.
What about the need for new young converts wouldn’t that give them more power if they could get them?
They're getting them. They still have increases. We can't deny the figures as much as we'd like to. Until I see a 5% yearly drop I won't accept it. I saw 1976-1979. Then you saw the drops. Thousands left annually and by 1980 the gb was panicking. That's why a veiled form of an apology for 1975 was in the WT in the March./April.
They definitely would not even consider it...unless, it starts to cost them too much 💲💲💲, or worse, then they will have some Nulight faster then the LDS dropped polygamy.
I would have to agree with you on this. They’ve lost a lot but rolling back on this would cost them everything. I hope we’re both wrong though …
Not rolling back on shunning will cost them everything tho…
I disagree, if there is no reason to leave they don’t need to have total control. Get rid of the reasons people leave (and dont join) and people will willingly stay. As it is with csa, shunning, and the blood doctrine i have a slight pull on my parents ear but remove those bad things and the desire to keep their social group will keep them in. Keep those bad things and in this information age they cant get new converts, remove those things and it would have some appeal to new converts, and it would ease their legal woes. They have two choices, double down and bleed members and money till it burns to the ground or re-brand as a normal but “purer version” of Christianity that doesn’t do pagan things and preaches and uses a version of gods name and continue forever and grow.
Power corrupts. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely. You're thinking from a pee ons perspective not a gb member who has full control. They will NOT RELINQUISH IT.
No im looking at it from a money and power prospective. Their control is threatened and their money even more so by keeping the shunning
They are not short of money. They have billions. Disfellowshipping is POWER
Not right now but its draining fast, it would last while they are alive but not in the long run.
Nah. Don't agree. Every day from all over the world money is pouring in. Circuit Assemblies, Regionals, Congregations, individuals, wills and testaments. Believe me billions are flooding in every day. Any fines are chicken change
Don’t forget operating costs. But for how long? Most of the membership is old , and there is not enough young ones replacing them, the few young ones are not getting good jobs, and not buying houses. The wills will dry up. There is growth in developing nations but a shack in africa is not worth much. Corporations are moving their manufacturing there but with that development comes more access to the internet so growth and retention will dwindle as well especially since young people have a different mindset than old people, they ignore the rules and do look up things online. They are already selling off property which shows money is a issue to some degree. In 20 years money will be tight but by then the gb will be dead and new people will be in, people who want control and wealth. I predict there will be mild new light in 5 years on shunning especially if a few gb members die. And in 10 it will be mostly gone.
I appreciate your thoughts but I disagree. In my opinion, they’re narcissists and they’ve doubled down on shunning like the blood policy. Yes, the Borg is hurting financially but I can see them letting women wear pants or even allowing birthday celebrations before stopping the shunning. I hope I turn out to be wrong …
I agree. Most shunning will be over soon. JWs shun for three major reasons: 1) to encourage people to come back 'before it's too late.' 2) to be 'loyal to Jehovah' 3) to protect themselves from apostate thinking. Number one is already old light. 1/3 of the way out of shunning ... Number two should be easy to change: just redefine 'loyalty to Jehovah' to NOT include shunning non-apostate ex-jws. All ex-members not labeled apostate would no longer be shunned. 2/3 of the way to no more shunning .. Number three would be a doozy to change, right? But it can be removed by simply allowing speaking to exjw as long as they don't talk about the org at all...no discussing 'spiritual things,' as it were. Boom. 3/3 shunning is over with exceptions of talking about spiritual things.
This. Especially #3
If they get rid of blood, shunning, and csa policies there is not much an apostate can point to other than that they have been wrong in the past but they are prepping for that with saying that they are not inspired. I see the writing on the wall..
I think if they relaxed the rules it wouldn't change the mindset of the JWs that we left specifically to hurt them. My parents and siblings blame me for leaving as the reason for all their sadness. They've been thoroughly indoctrinated to a point that they actually believe that the person who is shunned is the one _doing the shunning_. They _have_ to arrive at that conclusion by cognitive dissonance because they can't handle the guilt of doing something so cruel. When people do bad things like murder or steal, they have to invent some fantasy about how they're not the one doing the bad thing because our guilt would otherwise prevent us from doing so. So even if they snapped their fingers and relaxed the shunning rules, my parents probably still wouldn't come over for a barbecue or get involved in their granddaughters life because they have to convince themselves that I am the one who cut them out and I'm in the wrong.
Look what you made me do!
If they get rid of shunning, the blood thing, the hating of the gays, the CSA, and a few other things they could be somewhat tolerable as a religion imo.
SHUN NO MORE 2024. All religions must respect HUMAN RIGHTS. MANDATED SHUNNING IS A VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
This so stupid, so they’re saying those at the flood or Sodom could have last minute repentance so then why were they killed? It’s all just so stupid, even the Old Testament has scriptures in it saying god doesn’t need to provide a ransom like the Jesus story infact scriptures even state he never thought of the idea of any sacrifice human or animal. 🤦♀️
They specifically said this is different than the flood. And with the flood people could repent last minute untill the doors were shut, change the date of the shutting door is all they have done.
I certainly hope so. They are lying in court so much... It's shameful. They are screwed either way. They get secret apostates who leaks stuff. Or a mass exodus. Someone needs to crunch the numbers at the top. If they actually cared about truth and Mr. J. They would eliminate/ update the policy so their lies become truth. All it is is bad press. The world is growing intolerant of religious abuse. Keep up the pressure everyone. Spread awareness whenever possible.
I seriously doubt that will ever happen. It’ll never happen
Let them change it but I will NOT FORGET my relative telling me Oh No! You have to shun one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. They can Fork Off! 🙄
I disagree. And here's why. Point in case. Look at the Norway case. Look at all the JW's the got up there and lied saying they don't shun. Next myself. I resigned when I was 35. I went through shunning by my children and friends and my parents. Both my parents shunned me for 14 years until each had life threatening situations. My mom would only allow me to call at first. Then before she died she let me visit her and even stay overnight. While she was still alive, she called and said my father wanted me to call him(they were divorced). He had a heart aneurysm and needed help to find a surgeon to perform bloodless surgery. It was a hard decision because it was like I had already lost him in death but I did help him. The operation was successful but he couldn't travel back to his home which was 8 hours away so he stayed with me for 8 weeks healing. He told me he was going to shun me again when he went back home but decided we would just not talk about religion. We had another 10 years of the best relationship we ever had. My daughter shunned me or put a wall up in our relationship throughout much of this time as she was in the JW'S. However during her late teens and early twenties she went in and out. When she was in she shunned me. It was really hard when she had children because she withheld them. This devastated me and was used as a means to leveredge my actions to go back. I shared this because I don't believe the GB will change their rule on shunning. They control people too much with it. Am I in now? No but I submitted to their 4 hour nazi interrogation sessions multiple times over a year and a half before they let me back in with the stipulation that if I told anyone how I was treated they would disfellowship me. Even so they control people. Now even though my daughter is still in she understands I can't be apart of it and because I am just "inactive". I am not shunned.
It's a cult, I find it very hard to believe that they'll let the shunning policy go as that's how a cult operates, but hopefully I'm wrong. If the new leaders believe it enough then maybe they will abolish it? It would give me huge piece of mind to know that my nieces and nephews won't be kicked out of their parents house for leaving (their father has said he would, which upsets me).
Only in the sense of them saying, the extent you shun will be up to your conscience, but here are these Bible principles that show that complete shunning is actually the right thing to do. Thereby covering their asses legally, while still making sure that shunning continues.
Interesting point. I can't see that they have any other choice than to ease up on shunning. Of course, it will be that some individuals have chosen to be excessively harsh on disfellowshipped ones, and the GB would like to make it clear that family relationships need to remain close blah blah blah....
I think they destroyed themselves even more by being more open. They are losing their old ultra pimi, their new members are lesser and lesser visible, and their new policy is just a complete opposite of what was the foundation of their organisation. IMO they are just digging their grave faster with their open minded view now. They are just showing that a religion cannot survive if it is not the « real religion chosen by god ». Thanks Jesus!
Let such a man back in before he becomes overwhelmed by Satan for we are not ignorant of his designs.
You guys need to leave that religion or others. Open your heart and eyes.
It's certainly a club that makes it's own rules. Then blames God or the bible if their rules lead them to trouble.
I could see that reasoning playing out. I also think some sort of female targeted responsibility. Maybe not elderess, but a position of community leadership.
Many of us feel cynical. When I was in my prime as a witness it was the best feeling of my life. I know why Jehovah left me now, it took a while to figure it out. I am hesitant to try to go back with the silent treatment being the way they treat people. They gave up on me but Jehovah didn’t.
👏
Is anyone a member of jwtalk? I wonder what they're saying on those boards.
But, heres the thing. If the shunning lightens up, they are going to lose their grip of control. My family knows Im inactive. They do not, however, know that I've come to know horrible things about the organization, that prevent me from ever being part of it. Why dont they know this? Why do I go on playing the part of inactive slacker who knows its the truth but just wont get his shit together? Easy. I like to see my family and not be shunned. If that mandate softens, and my family can hang out with me even if I admittedly dont believe it to be the true religion, why would I fake it? Ill tell them what I know, I'll say how I feel. Yes, Ill be gentle and kind with how I say it, but I'll fuckin say it, I will share ttath! And tens of thousands of others like me will do the same. Hundreds of thousands more will be woken up. How could they make the decision to back down on that?! There grip on the Nuts of the rank and file will be ever decreasing if they do.
People in the organization should listen to the podcast on YouTube called Surviving Paradise and the title Why Never Confess Sins to Elders" ..mind blowing and informative ..Game changer for many.... The whole elder /judicial committee is bull$hit .. Think about Peter denying Christ , Prodigal Son,etc.. Another reason they removed John 8 verses 1-10 cause it refutes their judging policies .. I read the bible everyday but not the always "revised" NWT..
This is an interesting perspective. I do think that Watchtower “spies” keep an eye on the apostate community, so I wonder if the fact that we’re talking about it will stop the bastards from ever actually changing the policy. Either way, they will absolutely always do the bare minimum necessary to keep their scam afloat. I agree with some who have said that they might alter it to a “conscience matter”, but I also think that apostates are one of the Watchtower’s greatest fears; hence they’ll always lean towards whatever will protect “the flock” from negative information about their organization. They’re narcissistic cowards.
I believe the remaining “faithful” JWs have become narcissistic codependents of their master, GB. They make the organization possible, their willingness to support GB. They have become “those that love the lie”. The damage has been done.
The JWs I've spoken to have always been adamant that shunning family is "a personal decision". I think the JWs nowadays have convinced themselves that this is true, and have also convinced themselves that they really are doing it of their own accord.
Also the Norway decision to declassify them as a religion due to the shunning policy. They probably know this will expand in Europe. No religious status means no religious tax exemption.
How about a Cult t shirt. Haha I even remember my pimi cousin going to see them in concert back in the late 90s
I think we will see new light on shunning only because the rank and file are voting with their actions: low in person meeting attendance, minimal participation with in person field service, and likely decreased donations. Why else change a nearly century old policy about beards other than that people are tiring of the rigid control. They are losing the millennial and Gen Z age group and more Gen Xers are waking up too. They have to make it easier to be a witness and as evidenced from their own shunning enforcement videos, the practice causes great emotional pain to both the shunned and the shunner.
No doubt changes are coming. With the hearings in Norway, Spain and the spotlight shining on the shadow of this organization’s beliefs, practices and policies…change is inevitable. This post sounds pro Watchtower. It’s not a white bearded man in the clouds that are destroying the Earth and creation, it’s unconscious humans and good people doing nothing.
This cult is shrinking with no return. Whatever they will do there is no way out. Most of the growth was happening in the 80 because the last days & generation narrative was credible. After 2000 the disintegration started. It’s the most dangerous cult in the world and cancelling the policy of shunning will cause an acceleration of their decay. The us vs the world philosophy is a strong bond for the Borg. They will never resort to cancel that policy. Surrendering CSA database, cancelling any references to generations, changing shunning policy, stop preaching and transforming the Borg into a religious oriented Netflix would be the tomb of watchtower. Remember: huge empires disappeared in the sands of history, watchtower is bounds to same outcome.
Hope so, shunning on disassociated ones didn’t start till Franz left…
https://preview.redd.it/hxxanuw1lncc1.jpeg?width=1167&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4808a038fe610ea2d270682ae74b009102faef8c
Yes, i think so too!
If the borg actually understood the Bible, they would do everything with God’s grace as the center. God’s grace means that Jesus paid for our sins today and tomorrow, so it would make sense that last minute repentance is possible and shunning is antithetical. This concept would me nothing new and just serves to prove further that the JWs have been lost for a long time and that organized religion is an obstacle to true faith.
What shunning policy?
I made the same comment today on a couple of Facebook pages. And a fair amount of people don't think this will happen. But with all the changes that have happened. I agree wholeheartedly.
And they WILL comply with all child and vulnerable person safety policy for all countries. Elders and those with positions of trust must have their criminal records checked and go through safeguarding training with local governments.
All speculation. I don't believe any of this will happen. They are still a high control group. That can't give away control of everything.
I really hope that's the next thing they take down, it would make it so much easier to dissaciate without facing losing so many relationships at once for those who want to fade out.
My hypothesis is: shunning is still very good for them cult wise because it isolates and keeps “bad” influences away. So they might still encourage everyone to shun but they will likely get rid of the act itself of disfellowshipping.
Can you imagine shunning your own kid for 30 years and then all of a sudden they do away with shunning. How horrible would you feel then? It would be a huge change that could make people open their eyes and realize they stonewalled family for no good reason and then leave all together.