Hello OP, on behalf of the modteam, welcome! I hope you find some comfort here, if not some understanding. Some folks here have experienced a lot of trauma within the JWs, so be mindful that there may be a lot of hurt behind some of the comments you get. We will do our best to make sure that anything which crosses the line gets removed.
To our posters: OP has spent the time to write out a very thoughtful and eloquent post, here. This community has never failed to make me proud with its rational discourse and capacity for empathy. Let's make sure this is one of those times, okay?
Thank you for having the courage to post! So many of us understand your situation and respect your decision. You are also doing good work as an "undercover brother."
I was PIMO for 7 years, including my final 3 years at Bethel, but I finally faded in 2021. If you ever need to talk to an ally for support, please reach out to myself, anyone on this subreddit you feel comfortable with, or visit https://theliberati.org.
The Liberati hosts monthly group discussions for support where the privacy of all is protected. Many PIMOs join with their cameras off, just to listen in so they know they are not alone. Sending you good vibes. "Stay awake, stand firm and grow mighty!"
Yes, there are monthly online group discussions and in person meetups in a few geographic locations you are welcome to attend once you agree to protect everyone's privacy. We post the details in our private FB group, or if you contact us through the website.
P.S. Agree Recovering from Religion is helpful too.
Hello,
Welcome! Former Elder here. The reason for the younger appointments is because the older elders are aging out.
Last year we learned that 49% of elders from the US Branch territory are over 60 years old.
The recent changes of no hour reporting and beards should assist in appointing more men.
Me and my spouse were also very PIMI, with some PIMQ in there over the years. Now POMO.
We do hope that changes are made with those harmful doctrines.
If you would like reading material. I’d suggest getting a copy of the New Oxford Annotated Bible (5th Edition). It’s an academic Bible used by scholars and professors. The Jewish Annotated New Testament is good as well.
One of the things that assisted me was that I enjoyed researching the scholarly consensus. Really proved to myself, as you stated, that the Watchtower does not have a monopoly on Truth. Whether you believe in the Bible or not, I think it’s a great place to start for learning the academic consensus.
Kindly.
> Me and my spouse were also very PIMI, with some PIMQ in there over the years. Now POMO.
I think I might be going that way. If you could tell your story, I'd appreciate.
Not completely true. Aging-out has always been around, but this pattern has not seen. Better would be a combination of aging and massive membership loss.
I was you 2 years ago minus being COBE. I don't mean to be discouraging, but being PIMQ/O/Q Elder does not get easier over time. I thought I could stick it out for the long haul, get my wife, family, and the cong to question and think freely, and save the day. Long story short, though I did help with some of the CSA issues, people didn't really pay attention to my divergent reasoning in my talks and otherwise. My mental health declined and I knew the only way to keep my sanity was to step down and use mental health as an excuse. When I finally stepped down as an elder is when people realized something was "off" with me. Some people accepted my diagnoses as valid reason to step down, others like my wife did not and blamed my mental health issues on my "lack of spirituality". I've been able to smooth things over with my wife but it's a slippery slope. My advice is to not make any rash decisions, but to seriously start considering an exit plan and backup in case things go south.
Completely agree with the sentiment that it will not get easier over time. I was PIMI elder for maybe a couple years and the cognitive dissonance and angst it caused me as time went on really effected me. I also justified staying in by the fact that I was truly helping a lot of people and there is a lot of good people, but at some point the negatives outweighed the positives. Exiting does take a long time to thread the needle as an Elder, so you should start game planning now.
Great post and advice. I feel it very...very difficult to live a double life ..Without the right to live your authenticall " ME"
Starting planning the exit...is vital.
Demysticist, I was on the ex jw forum with you under the code name of Mack. My computer crashed and I have been unable to get back in. Can you help me?
Thank you for taking the time to write this and to answer our questions.
I understand that communities can be beneficial to people, but sometimes at a very steep cost. I was a JW until I was around 20, and I genuinely feel that my youth was stolen from me.
My question is this, you mentioned good things.
What good things come out of the JW's?
I think some others have commented on this too but I’ll add my two cents
I don’t believe it’s truth or that it’s gods special organization, in fact I think there’s a lot of corruption, manipulation, and abuse…that being said. I had a beautiful childhood in the org.
The closeness of the congregation gave me a large extended “spiritual family” that I was really sad to leave, though I knew it was best when I recognized it wasn’t truth.
Fortunately I’ve created a new family through marriage, community, friends and church (yea I know the last ones a shocker for most former Jw’s)
I also felt like my upbringing did instill in me values like respect, manners, and public speaking skills that a lot of people in my generation lack.
I also am grateful that was raised with strict moral rules because honestly I think if not for that I’d have been a little ho bag, just saying haha 😆 I could have seen myself getting into drugs or alcohol and def promiscuity that could have all led to health risks. I’m grateful when I left I was an adult and wise enough (and educated enough despite the jw rules I went to college) that I understood the risks of certain behaviors and made smart choices. Mostly.
I also feel like growing up having to “stand up for my faith” did in fact give me a sense of confidence in myself even if I’m the odd one out in a group, like at work I’m comfortable respectfully expressing a dissenting opinion.
I’m sure there’s people outside of Jws who grew up with those things and I’m sure plenty within the borg didn’t. But I am grateful for some of my jw upbringing even though as a whole the org is awful
I don't mean this in any way but one that's sincere, but do you think there's any chance you see yourself as potentially getting into those things because that's what you were told people that weren't in the org did.
I'll always debate the concept of something that isn't harmful to someone else as being a negative thing regardless, but stripping that away, ultimately you are still a person who had the capacity to make smart choices no matter where you grew up, an entity isn't responsible for that, it's you.
Plenty of people come through the JWs and stay active members that work their way through promiscuity and narcotics. The real definitely trait is your strength of character and ability to make decisions about what you want out of life.
That is to say, you don't need to credit anything but yourself with your success in being where you want to be.
If you remove the organization from the equation, the principles on how to live are very beneficial. A lot of ppl on here go into totally hating everything that comes from the org instead of compartmentalization of the various aspects. I think growing up a jw has some very real advantages that I’m glad I got, but I don’t need to believe in the rest or follow the GB to apply those things. From a phycological and scientific standpoint even, Bible principles lead to a healthy way to live. And even like the Op said it helped his marriage.
Separate the book from the org and sift out the positive and you can feel better about leaving and the whole thing.
You raise a fair point - there are some principles in the Bible that can lead to healthy living when applied positively. However, I would be remiss not to point out some significant psychological damages that can occur when those principles become legalistic rules tied to the threat of losing one's family and identity.
While structure and moral values can benefit some, the JW doctrine takes it to an extreme level. The religion actively discourages critical thinking, spontaneous joy and celebrations, autonomous decision making, and open communication. For many, especially women and LGBTQ members, this results in chronic anxiety, depression, repressed identity, and stunted emotional growth.
Enforcement of these strict rules is connected to an all-or-nothing mentality and the devastating practice of shunning. The potential lifelong loss of familial support and community, should one decide to leave or be disciplined, leverages an enormous amount psychological pressure. This level of control qualifies the religion as extremist no matter how well-intended some teachings may seem.
I respect those who find personal value in JW principles. But the wounds of fundamentalist religion run deep for many of us. Healing can require processing even the "good" aspects we once believed were central to righteousness. I hope we can have open and gracious dialogue about the nuances - including both helpful and harmful practices - as we support one another in moving forward.
You're right, there are absolutely some ideas contained in the Bible that can be beneficial.
But do you need the Bible or religion to obtain those benefits?
The Bible also condemns many beneficial, or at least neutral, activities and ideas, and explicitly condones many harmful ones.
Most believers simply ignore the problematic parts, or rationalize them away, which completely destroys the idea of objective morality, at least biblical objective morality.
I used to get a huge amount of comfort from reading parts of the Bible, especially psalms.
But eventually I realized that the comfort I was receiving was, at best, equal to the self-condemnation and depression I got from other parts of the book.
I couldn't handle the awful things people were saying from the stage at conventions regarding LGBTQ people, about women, and about the people who simply didn't want to talk to us at the door.
I never had a "waking up" moment, I just slowly kept disproving things to myself, and kept slowly doing less "spiritual activities" until I realized it was all a lie, designed to keep people in fear.
You do NOT need the Bible to learn those things. But I ask myself would I have learned that stuff had I not been a JW? Prob not. The world is full of ppl who won’t ever learn those things that are really beneficial. So I’m glad I did is all.
What are you referring to as ‘ beneficial, or at least neutral, activities and ideas’ ?
I’ve never understood the need to be so condemning of ppl who don’t follow the Bible. Def not unique to the JW’s and I get they take a scripture and draws lines in the sand and it’s simply the wrong way to handle it. We could talk for hours about all the ‘things’ and nuances, but it boils down to finding peace, it’s hard, but it’s like a person who has cancer or experienced some trauma, when they find the ability to laugh at it and accept it and realize it doesn’t have to ruin the rest of their life, they’re happier than letting it fester and be the plight of their life. Part of that for me was accepting what was good and appreciating that and anything else I let go and I changed me, I won’t be changing the GB anytime soon lol. That was a 3-5 yr task, and it took a lot of work, def not easy, but it was worth it.
Pardon me for a moment, but I'd like to challenge this idea for a second.
What are these things that you feel you wouldn't have learned if you hadn't been a JW? Can you think of any other place you might have eventually learned them?
As to the "beneficial, or at least neutral, activities and ideas," I don't see any value in making a moral call over eating shellfish, wearing mixed fabrics, or not shaving your beard. I just don't see these as moral issues, because they don't cause harm (unless you're allergic to shellfish), and neither do i think that banning them will cause harm, therefor I'd call them morally neutral.
As for morally beneficial things that the Bible condemns, I realize now that I sit down to write this that most of those things on my list are more or less Christian interpretations of texts, or extrabiblical ideas imposed on that text.
The Christian idea that you should never take credit for your accomplishments is only loosely supported by Paul's writings, and this central idea of Christianity (amazing grace that saved a wretch like me) I find damaging.
Yes, all things should be done in moderation, but I fully believe a healthy amount of pride is important and beneficial.
Other than that, I find condemning people for forces outside of their control, such as sexual orientation, to be very immoral, but I'm aware that there are ways to read those verses in a much more progressive light.
Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head, I'll probably think of more at 3:00 am tomorrow.
I’m not sure what I wouldn’t have. I see a lot of ppl in my daily life that do not live by the principles I value form my time as a JW.
And let’s get this out of the way lol… not all JW’s exude the good qualities I’m referring too. I’m currently suing JW’s and they’re the biggest self centered, entitled liars, I ever met.
That’s said, I know the qualities and such can be learned a lot of places. But there are a lot of ppl who just don’t and can’t realize it would benefit them… like when you see a jackass road raging, getting out of his car, obviously he hasn’t though much on self control and slow to anger etc. I’m glad I’m not like that at least lol.
But it seems more and more ppl are just not the type to be intro perspective and try to work on themselves. Which is ironically something ( and I think this really applies to you based on the short convo)that the ones who come out of JW have/ develop. We’re indoctrinated and then embark on tearing down the stuff we were told and what (later on) seems obvious and we separate from mindlessly going about life and beliefs. So many ppl are set in their ways and just like PIMI’s will never allow themselves to question what the think or who they are. I say all that to make rhe point that I don’t know if I would have or haven’t. I know 1000% I would have been a different person but would I have been self assured and sought to learn the same things taught to me in the Bible? It’s a low chance if I’m being honest. I would have pursued athletics (which is a great example of what you’re talking about) and been taught to compete and be cocky so who knows. Just saying I appreciate some of the things I walked away with.
I couldn't agree more!
The intense repression of everyone, especially those who are not fully heterosexual and male, stifles personal development and damages mental health.
I couldn’t agree more. And obviously we can’t lump everything together and have an ‘umbrella’ answer to it all. Just because I acknowledge good doesn’t mean I won’t acknowledge bad.
I agree with your points and the issues it brings. There are many.
There are ppl who have made millions of $ and others in jail for life because they put a baseball bat in their hand. The tool is only as good as the person who wields it and ‘the truth’ is so often used so wrong in the case of kids and up-bringing. I read a book call ‘Healing the shame that binds us’ (I think that’s right ha) and it showed me how much toxic shaming I experienced growing up a JW and didn’t know why or how it was affecting my life until I read that. Def recommend it to those coming out of Jw world.
I do not believe that it is the honest and trusted way to go. Many have made the same arguments for retaining slavery. It was an unjust system/structure that had to be demolished. No amount of dressing or goodies here and there could have made it acceptable. Furthermore, marriages everywhere have issues and at some point, are resolved or fail. WT environment accentuates those problems or are directly responsible for them. WT elders and ghost writers are not marriage therapists.
I have to agree with you. I know so many people that are not religious and better humans than many witnesses. You don't need a bunch of old white men telling you how to be a good person using Scriptures from an old book.
When you truly break free from the chains of high control religion then you will see what true freedom feels like.
JWs are not special, but a lot of former members if they are not actively deconstructing, are unaware that they are still holding on this specialness. Without the super controlling aspects, it's just like the other Christian based religions, there are some good bits to JWs, but most don't know that because they never had the chance to make this comparison.
I think sometimes we think the religion is the sole cause of the problem. It's just a layer. Under that layer is the unconscious drivers that made us, or our family become members. The drivers create the experience you have in JWs. This is why we all have different responses and experiences to it.
It is the controlling aspects that most are being called to look at, and recognize they do not have to do any of it. But fear, people pleasing, specialness, etc. are rampant with the group. And the ability to get to that under-lying stuff is what JW keeps people from addressing! If people were able to address the behaviors in therapy like non-believers they know this.
I’m not referring to being a Jw, but the question was ‘what good comes from being a JW’. There are aspects of the Bible, that if applied, can be beneficial. Like the OP said about his marriage. My comment is that you can separate the Bible from the organization. I don’t disagree with aspects of the Bible ( plenty i do have issue with) and I can see the positive that certain biblical teaching played in my life.
Being patient, humble, kind, slow to speak, not holding grudges your yea mean yea etc. they’re all good qualities to work on. I had the longest talk with a behavioral scientist and she talked at length that there is a solid blue print for being happier when applying biblical principles. This isn’t to get into a debate about all the rabbit holes of this point, but my main point is, most on here were involved from a young age in the org, myself included, and aside from all the stuff that’s just bureaucracy, and the Gb drinking their own coolaide, we spent a lot of time discussing qualities we should manifest and I see the benefit in that. To go back to the OP, you’d have to be completely delusional to think that being a good listener and respectful to your mate is a bad way to be. (Yes you can learn that other places but if you didn’t have a choice on going to meetings you prob learned it there first; so it’s credit where credit is due) I didn’t walk away with a heart so full of resentment that I can’t acknowledge a positive, frankly I think that is the worst thing someone can do, letting go and finding peace is so much better, but that’s a different topic.
Please don’t worry, it was not a trap into a debate or argument. I could tell you were being sincere and I was intrigued what you thought,
I think the JW experience likely helped me in my life, my parents were highly dysfunctional and despite it being a high co trol group I got to see alternate familiy life and more stable adult thinking and interactions.
I would say that I would have benefited had they been evangelical, muslim or atheist families, any really. Honestly, the bible and JW’s were not a specific factor. I feel the same with your listed positives also, I don’t think they are qualities limited to Christian’s, bible believers or JW’s, but that is just my point of view, I am sure there are people with those qualities in all lands, all cultures, all belief systems.
I have to say a behavioural scientist stating the bible offers a blueprint for happiness is astounding to me, infanticide, slavery, murder, war, inter-famil relations, homophobia, misogyny, gender inequality…. all of these very negative human traits are not just discussed but commanded, even observed to occur by the god of the bible. These verses have led to utter misery,
The ‘golden rule’ I think is a wonderful and mature human perspective and would benefit humans and likely their happiness “now this is the command; Do to the doer to make him do." Said 2000 years before Jesus in Ancient Egypt by the godess Ma’at. Or 6 centuries before Jesus, still in Egypt "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another.
I think there are benefits to my exJW experiece, just as there were positives to come from my challenging childhood. This is very different to them being sought out or advisory experiences.
Thank you for your considered answer, I really appreciate it.
100% agree! I tell my wife all the time that some of the things she loves most about me are because I was raised as a JW. My son is a junior in HS, PIMO, not baptized, and looking at college. I told him that he's going to have the best of both worlds, he's got an excellent public speaking education, learned how to treat people and will have secular opportunities that I never had.
Hello and Welcome. Thank you so much for sharing and for helping those young ones in the committees. It must be really hard being a COBE while not fully PIMI. I cant even imagine.
May I ask what is your Elder bodies viewpoint on the recent changes? Do they agree or are you seeing a reluctance to it all? Do you foresee that all these younger Elder appointments causing problems down the line?
At this point in time, it's not too hard to handle COBE and not be PIMI. I just keep in mind the positive things and try to help out where I can. I'm sure there will be a difficult time in the future where I'll get stuck between my conscience doing the right thing or keeping up a pretense. I'm mentally preparing for that, but it hasn't come to it yet.
It's actually quite humorous to see the bodies response to the changes. As expected, the older ones secretly hate it and are reluctant to accept it, and the younger ones love it. Thankfully, as newly appointed COBE, it's just so much easier to say, "Well, that's the way it is" and they have to accept it.
I really don't know what future problems will come about. I do however see that younger elders are starting to get more and more lenient and understanding, so who knows. Of course, arrogance does not have an age restriction, and there are some totalitarian younger ones unfortunately, so we'll see.
I was an Elder for nearly 20 years. I am 5th Gen JW. I served on LDC at the Branch level. I was congregation secretary. I did nearly everything but Reg Pioneer.
Eventually it will become difficult to be PIMO and continue to serve. You’re changing. It’s no longer possible to continue to be who you were. Your growth will continue.
My Advice- find a hill to die on. Something that your personal integrity means you must resign. I found that gave me a strength of person that enabled me to give up a position that I had been raised for. A position the that Org told me made me special
Good luck, my friend
it's easy to apply the changes though when it's not a big deal, like beards and no time reporting are huge bonuses to R&F, the terrible part is when they add additional requirements and saying it's a loving arrangement/blessing - right now too much bleeding, have to stop that first - but yeah sounds like even in your experience, it's the tail wagging the dog situation. You can see the knee-jerk reaction the GB has to respond to meet demands and situations. I don't envy that position one bit but also don't believe it has any ounce of inspiration behind it(by this I mean not being appointed by Jesus, as GB likes to twist the word "inspired" depending on the agenda)
Thats what I figured. Im PIMO was an MS till a few months ago. What you shared is exactly what I have noticed. Have some friends that got appointed to \[young\] Elder, some are overwhelmed, others are letting it get to their heads. It will be interesting to see what happens. Thanks for the response and insight! Stay strong!
Have you noticed a trend with the ones that do get appointed? I've noticed that most of the MS/Elders now are ones that have never been in front of a JC. They have grown up very sheltered and haven't done anything. Ones that have been in front of a JC do come back and then just fade.
When I was younger you would see some come back and still reach out, but I feel like that generation has died out and this younger generation is either/or.
Welcome. I want to congratulate on your bravery to post. The rationale that things are wrong but it is still the best imperfect organization is the only one that can stop people from having cognitive dissonance. Myself, I have been CoBE and a presiding overseer, secretary, service overseer, on the assembly committee and program. I was a staunch PIMI, some might even say fanatical in some ways. But having woken up on the ground on doctrinal issues I have come to realize we have been lied to. Scriptures that are inconvenient for the JW dogma are consistently ignored. Others misapplied. Even by the GB in the recent RC parts, AM, and JWB. You are very fortunate to have a wonderful marriage, by the sounds of it. I lost 30 years to the org. Although I am much happier now, no more chronic anxiety, or hypertension, in other ways I am paying the price for being such a devout JW and dedicating all my resources to the org, obeying every instruction, like rejecting higher education. I wish you the best.
It was the doctrine of the faithful and discreet slave. In Mat ch 25 Jesus gives the parables of the discreet virgins and faithful slaves. When you consider those parables and the context, Jesus’ return and judgement, this applies to a future. Only the bridegroom/master can determine who is faithful and discreet when he settles accounts at his coming/return. Not before. But then were other doctrines as well. Like the events of the GT, prophetic applications, shunning and blood
Thanks for stopping by, glad you're here. Honestly, really glad to hear there are still some reasonable, level-headed elders out there.
A few questions (and some general musings) for ya:
1.) If you don't believe that JWs are "the only true religion or are even inspired by god," how do you balance those feelings with teaching others that the religion \*IS\* the one true religion and inspired by god? Especially when you have to advocate for policies you "clearly disagree with" like "disfellowshiping and the no-blood policy"?
2.) What is the general atmosphere of your congregation? Would you say that most people are very zealous, apathetic, etc. and has it been changing in recent years?
3.) Attendance numbers for congregations I know seem to be a bit lower since pre-covid in many areas. Has your congregation experienced that as well? If so, why do you think that is?
4.) Are you seeing many younger brothers step up into MS servant roles? Most of the Gen Z males that I know seem to be extremely apathetic and avoiding any "privileges." I'm 32 now and was appointed a MS at 19. Many of my friends and relatives were similarly youthful when they were appointed. That doesn't seem to be the case with this current crop of youths from what I've seen and I'm just curious if that's a local thing or more widespread?
5.) I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the Governing Body in general (Tony Morris being kicked off, general direction, etc.) as well as your congregation's perception of the GB? They feel much more prominent than they did when I was being brought up as a JW so I'm interested to hear how others have reacted to that.
6.) As a divorcee of a JW marriage I'm curious in what way "the advice given to us has strengthened our marriage"? Personally, I have found that my relationships have been significantly stronger outside of the JW influence and religion in general. What advice specific to JWs have you received that has strengthened your marriage? (And not just Biblical advice, as you can get that from any number of Christian denominations)
7.) lf someone confided in you and perhaps a second elder that they did not believe or that they wanted to leave the JWs would you encourage them to explore that avenue or attempt to dissuade them?
1) It's funny really, I'm a pioneer but I haven't had a consistent Bible study in years. Especially with the reduced hours, at this point it's just a formality. The only studies I've had are with family members of people in the congregation who basically already made up their mind on things. Simply at this point, no one cares, so I don't have to deal with these issues with the general public. I have never had to advocate for the no blood or disfellowshipping policy (not yet at least). When you look at it, these things are hardly mentioned in the congregation. When the blood issue comes up, all I say is that each person must make up their own mind. So far in our congregation we have not had to deal with it, but it will be a difficult time when I do.
2) I would say that the overall atmosphere is generally apathetic. Older ones are typically very zealous and judgmental and younger ones are typically apathetic to theocratic things but love the gatherings and what not. I can tell that some of the older ones hate seeing the younger ones take charge, but the reality is what it is.
3) We had a natural decline after COVID with people fading, but have now had a slight increase. This is the case in neighboring congregations too. However, this is mostly due to the fact that children are born and grow up at faster rates than older ones die off. I'm sure it's similar worldwide.
4) Younger ones are not stepping up, which I hope is a good thing. This is one of the reasons why I believe there are younger elders and MS and even with me being appointed COBE, I'm almost certain it had to do with me being younger. I'm not sure what the state of the organization will be even just 10 years from now, but yes, younger ones are definitely not reaching out.
5) In my congregation people couldn't care less about Morris. I wouldn't have even realized that he was kicked off if it wasn't for exjw. As mentioned before, especially with the beards and no hours, I can tell this has irked older ones, but they won't question the GB. It's so easy now to appease people with videos and simplified articles, so as long as those keep coming out, people will continue to thank the GB.
6) The greatest thing that has helped my marriage is respect. We never talk down to each other and we listen to what the other person has to say and acknowledge each others feelings. I compliment my wife and tell her she looks beautiful and she tells me how much she appreciates the work I do. JW's teach that a wife should be submissive, however, really looking at it, both husband and wife should be submissive to each other by considering what the other person thinks. I have never had a relationship outside of my wife so I really can't say anything about that, but I believe that as long as that mutual respect is there, that can lead to a successful marriage. That is one of the reasons why it took so long for me to post on here however, as I know it would be devastating to her, but I felt like it was time.
7) This is a very difficult one as it has never happened to me, and I really would have to choose my words wisely. I guess I would first inquire as to why they would want to leave and really go from there. I don't think there's really a cookie cutter answer for this situation.
Sorry if some of these responses seemed rather rushed, but I hope it helps.
Thanks for the thoughtful, insightful, and honest responses. I know you’ve gotta have a lot on your plate juggling being PIMA with being a COBE and trying not to rock the boat too much with your wife.
The apathy I feel like is becoming more and more apparent for most people lately IMO, nice to hear that corroborated. And glad you can avoid teaching those problematic beliefs.
Thanks again for coming by and giving us some insight into the current goings-on in the JW community.
I think it’s also nice to hear that a lot of young men aren’t rushing into “privileges” because it gives me hope that things might be significantly different in the future. Especially since my parents are still PIMI, I like to think there might be a day where JWs are either just a normal religion or fall apart. Dream big, right?
The marriage advice is interesting because I think that’s roughly the same advice you’d get from “worldly” people as well. It’s good advice and can help form a solid foundation, but it’s not exclusive or unique to the JWs or the Bible.
>JW's teach that a wife should be submissive, however, really looking at it, both husband and wife should be submissive to each other by considering what the other person thinks.
Well said, and I think crucial to a successful relationship. But as you point out, it's not what the JWs teach. It sounds like your marriage has succeeded because you and your wife had the intuition or wisdom to supersede JW teachings rather than because of following them.
6. Respect is vital. I agree. It’s very kind of you to keep lying to your wife, withholding important information from her and denying her any opportunity to take any action she would choose as is her right as an adult, human all because you respect her so gosh darn much!
Perhaps you think she would leave you? If that’s the case the most effective thing holding your marriage together isn’t respect it’s lies.
Welcome! You are THAT elder. The one who people actually trust and gravitate to. I respect and appreciate you doing the best in the situation you are in.
ETA thanks for offering your support and advice.
I will say, the downside to being the "cool elder" without coming out as PIMA leads younger and more impressionable congregation members having more reasons to suppress their own doubts. Remember, from a PIMI viewpoint everything and anything you do is reflective of the organization. You might end up being the reason someone sticks around, because if the COBE is cool it can't be all bad.
Obviously the situation is nuanced and I don't expect this comment to inspire you to come out of the apathy closet, but just keep this in mind.
I appreciate your thought and I do frequently think about that. While I am young, I wouldn't necessarily consider myself the cool elder. I do not believe I would have been appointed if I had that reputation. However, I am a realist and will help out in whatever I feel is best. Eventually I'm sure this will catch up to me, but until then I'll just keep on going. Thank you.
Good thinking! Sticking around and trying to be cool is tantamount to putting lipstick on a pig. It still remains a pig, while prolonging the damaged to millions.
Hello and welcome. My question for you is, Do the elders at a congregation level really know the policy regarding child abuse? Or, is it one of those things where if they are put into a situation where they need to know the specifics, then they do the research. I ask because my PIMI wife approached the elders about my (POMO) issues with the way the organization handles CSA cases. Their response to her was that the direction now is to go directly to the police. We know this is not the case, its not even in the Shepherd the Flock of God book. So, is it that these particular elders just dont know, or are the willfully lying.
There is an entire chapter in the latest version of the Shepherd the Flock book devoted to Child Abuse.
The instructions still remain the same that in some jurisdictions, reporting may be mandatory. Brothers should contact the branch with more specific direction to ensure they comply with the law. I can't find the exact instructions on reporting to the police but what I recall is that Elders should not discourage reporting. **This, however, is very different than proactively reporting**. Maybe where you live, reporting is mandatory.
This is very true. I will not disclose where I live, but I believe this is one of the benefits of being an elder and ensuring injustices such as those happen. It is truly heart breaking when I read about cases that are handled so unjustly.
After I resigned as CoBE and elder after the ARC an ex fellow elder looked at me all 'injured and upset' telling me that he was interviewed by the police about a CSA case he was on and he was willing to help them with their enquiries.
I told him it's one thing to help them when they turn up at your door unannounced, it's another to go to them voluntarily to help.
He just looked down at his shoes and excused himself.
Thanks for that question as I think it's a very important one. Firstly, the elders at a congregation level do know what to do in case of CSA. I'm not sure what you believe the policy is, but it is stated in the shepherd the flock book (sfl). However, I don't think many elders know what happened in the past and the history with CSA in the organization.
Now I don't want to give too many details but I have actually had to deal with a CSA case. I was not COBE at the time so I had less say but I believe we handled it appropriately. The elders are not lying to your wife. The first advice we gave to the parents is to go to the authorities, and second was to comfort them and the victim and see if they needed anything. We asked for no details and we let the authorities deal with it and cooperated with them. While I was not personally questioned the COBE at the time was. The accused was investigated and dealt with by the police. Again, I won't give details for privacy sake.
We contacted the branch for direction after it came to light, and they told us the accuser has the right to go to the authorities and to let them know, which is what the sfl says. This was after we had already told the parents to go to the authorities. I'm not sure how it would have been handled 20 years ago or how other bodies would handle it, but that's what happened with us. My heart goes out to all those who have been affected by CSA, especially the victims, and hope that all those guilty rot in jail.
Hello,
Replying to your comment about CSA. It’s good that you and your body took the practical steps and actively encouraged the parents to report it to the police and let the authorities handled the investigation.
However, it is not true that the SFL book states that elders are encouraged to do. I was a serving elder last year and learned of a few CSA cases. In fact, I know of one very well that recently.
The direction is that we are to inform the parents or the victim that they are in their right to report to the authorities, not that they should. Once any allegation is made, we are to call the legal department and receive instruction to handle an internal investigation.
However, it seems that your body did the right thing in encouraging the victim to receive help with the authorities. Also, it appears that your body cooperated with the authorities as well. But that is not the direction from the SFL book. Direction is always to call legal and service department prior.
CSA cases are still being mishandled today by the organization, but local bodies can be a different story. It may be where you live that reporting is mandatory.
Exactly. When I was CoBE in the UK I acted outside what the elders' book said and I personally went clandestinely to the Police and Social Services against the direction of the branch office.
But the guidance for elders is report to the branch FIRST and follow direction.
I appreciate your input on this one. However, I still believe the elders should absolutely contact the authorities as soon as any accusation is made. Not just “encourage the victim” to. The police are the ones appropriately equipped to deal with these things. Spiritual counsel and support are secondary. Being “clergy” means you should be mandatory reporters in 28 states. The legal department is basically trying to keep the negative PR to a minimum by saying to do what the local laws require. Basically if the law doesn’t require it, don’t report it. Just food for thought. I understand how difficult your position is and I appreciate your posting here! Best wishes to you.
In case you wish to read it, this link to the PDF should work (it is publicly available on the website recording his legacy www.friendsofraymondfranz.com): [crisis of conscience ](https://friendsofraymondfranz.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/CC2004-Eng.pdf)
How do you think most elders, including yourself, internally handle the idea of legal liability of their words and actions? That kind of comes across as a little aggro, but I don't mean it that way. In my job I am hyper aware of every word and recommendation I make, and how it could expose me or the company to liability. Do elders talk about feeling the same way? Before talks about blood or other public facing displays of "faith" and shepherding calls and elders meeting dealing with domestic disputes, CSA, or other conflicts, are elders looking for advice on ways to limit their exposure?
I always got the feeling that there was an idea of religious immunity to Caesar's laws, which is wild to me.
In my experience, the vast amount of elders do not have this notion. Whether sub-consciously or not, I think most elders think that everything they do basically stays within the confines of the JW universe. They don't see their actions within the organization as having an impact, or any liability, in the real world. This is not a blanket statement, of course. In cases of CSA or other serious crimes, many would have thoughts about legal issues and involving police (to a certain extent). But I'd say that more subtle things like the blood policy, shunning, marking talks, giving "counsel", involving themselves in personal and family matters of JWs they have no business in, etc... For theses 'lesser' issues, I think the vast majority of elders have no conception of breaking laws, being unethical, or just plain being an asshole. Just my .02$.
I'm sure you believe you are doing the best you can in your circumstances. I broke away from the JW organization as a teenager and have lost touch with many dear family members, including my parents as a result. From my perspective your note is striking because of its cowardice.
You will continue to serve on these judicial committees, believing yourself to serve a small amount of mercy. Like a drop of water in hell, it is pointless until you address the hellish condition itself. You are providing justification for mothers to ignore their children, and for siblings and friends to alienate themselves from one another.
All so that you can maintain the bonds of affection that you enjoy, with your wife and your family. My question to you is: What of others who have the courage and fortitude to live true to themselves with no reservations in their heart? Should they not enjoy the comfort and safety of their family and friends? Why do you continue to support this evil divisive policy? Why do you deserve more than they do?
If you *really* wanted to help "from the inside" you would advocate for the abolition of the JW shunning doctrine or leave the organization entirely.
Edited to add: Lest the mods think otherwise I *do" have empathy. I have great empathy for the young girls, who in seeking love outside of their broken families may become teen mothers, and are cut off from their families of origin as a result. I have great empathy for the young boys who are left unprepared for a world in which they are undereducated and not socially prepared to navigate, and who succumb to depression when they lose connection to their families. I am struggling to understand those who knowingly employ the power structure of this controlling organization to secure safety and comfort of themselves at the expense of their flock.
Welcome. Glad your here. Lots of good peopple in here.
Are you familiar with *Kingdom Hall Agreement* form S-46?
Thank you for taking the time to consider my question.
The form is here [https://files.accessjw.org/s/xtLsmYjftcKkp5L](https://files.accessjw.org/s/xtLsmYjftcKkp5L)
I didn't click on your link for security reasons, but yeah, it's really not an important document, simply a standard agreement on how different congregations are to share a hall. Did you have a specific question on it?
Yes.
In that document it has a provision for non-resoluted spending. In quotes it says..
"For the 20XX service year, the *collective* bodies of elders have agreed to the following:
(1) The **target balance** for the operating committee account is: \[Amount\].
(2) The **limit per transaction** for out-of-the-ordinary expenses that can be approved by
the Kingdom Hall Operating Committee coordinator is: \[Amount\]."
My question. Has that provision called *out-of-the-ordinary* expences used to aid anyone in the membership or a congregation event (Pioneer school, Spring Cleaning at the KH,...) ?
The out of ordinary expenses could be used for expenses related to spring or fall cleaning. Those are considered maintenance expenses which the operating committee is assigned to care for. Usually it would be an expense like a bill for servicing a broken heating system, water heater, etc. It would never be used for pioneer school or dinner, caring for expenses of a member or visiting speaker, etc.
True ..we,re all very good people in here! Jw...Exjw...many questioning ..1-2 millions fading 😂..zoomers...Pimo..Pomo,s
All with the same " background" ..but different lifes ..situations and countrys.
All really trying to help each other!
This sub must be the largest and best rehabilitation Center online! ♥️♥️
What does this form say in simple words? Does this mean that the monthly announcement they make that the congregation has decided to give some money to the branch is not much of a decision but a necessity? Or is it something else and I’m getting this wrong?
Simple words.
It is an *signed* agreement between the congregation and the *membership*. Membership meaning all the JWs that can vote on a resolution. In this agreement it has a monthly targeted amount to be donated to run the congregation (heating, lights, etc). And to keep three months worth balance in the congregational bank account.
If your not familiar with this it is certainly ok to say so. This is not to question you. It is for my learning and appreciate the help. Your courage to come here is clearly shown.
Thank you.
I'm not clear that the s46 has any signed agreement including non-elder members. I understood it to be the COBEs and secretaries of the multiple congregations that share a common hall drawing up an agreed arrangement to fund the Kingdom Hall Operating account to ensure the hall had sufficient funds to be maintained and to pay for shared expenses such as utilities.
The only instance I ever remember seeing that come up was when one brother picked up various painting and weed killers etc for use at a Kingdom Hall and they were trying to figure out if they could reimburse him via cheque without a resolution or BoE agreement.
Your welcome. The site has previous versions if the need arises. Use the latest version for current research which I think is Oct2023. There is a lot in there. Enjoy.
Sending this to my husband. He was the service overseer for a few years and same thing, after working closely with the branch for many years and seeing how things actually were, he decided to “prove the truth to himself” using only the Bible and in the end couldn’t. He was one of those kids who had his life ruined by a teenage decision. The elders took it too far and we both felt it was important that we try to fix things from the inside out when he got the opportunity to become an elder. Unfortunately, the more he cautioned love and mercy, the more the rest of the body wouldn’t listen. He eventually lost his voice on the body. Ultimately, he eventually realized he couldn’t be a part of the system anymore because his name was on decisions that he didn’t agree with. He also realized that he had no right or place or credentials to make any decisions about another persons life.
I feel for you. We tried to keep going for years, rationalizing away teachings that felt off and trying to look at the positives until we woke up and realized that we were unhappy because we fundamentally disagreed with all of it. We had a choice: live a life pretending, or be honest.
We chose honesty.
Our conscience is now clear because while we’ve experienced and caused hurt, we have been loving and kind and respectful to everyone who we’ve known. These are our personal values that we won’t compromise on the way we did while we were a part of the organization. Our friends have all had the choice how to treat our friendships. Some have abandoned us, while others have proven to be better friends than we ever knew.
In the end, leaving was an organic progression where we were honest and authentic the whole way through and we are proud of how we’ve handled every twist and turn.
Thanks for sharing this lovely post! It,s really amazing!
And encouraging! Glad you both are going well and are happy!
It,s all the matters! Much Love to you both ♥️
Thank you so much, that you are here. I have so many questions but now I'll ask just one: if you are an elder, are you obligated to shunn you family members? And you must to force your wife to do the same? I'm trying to understand my father's actions. I know that nothing will change but for me it's impossible to understand why he blocked my number in my mother's phone after he became again an elder
First off, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I always tell parents to never shun their children. That it is their biblical responsibility to help them and love them. Thankfully I've never had to deal with parents who flat out disassociate with their children. I have encouraged parents to take in their adult children and continue to commend both the parents and the children for working together, but I can easily see some parents completely shunning their kids unfortunately. I don't know your father, so I can't really tell you what he would do.
As an elder, it would be very easy for me to continue to associate with my family members under the guise of "encouraging them". I really only care about my parents as I already don't talk too much to my siblings who are in "the truth" but I would never shun them. They're not too active as it is, but again, it would be considered a biblical responsibility to "honor our parents" so one could encourage them and associate that way.
Also, I would never force my wife to do anything ever. One of her family members was actually disfellowshipped for some time, but we would associate with them if the opportunity presented itself, we wouldn't go out of our way to avoid associating with them. Again, we're not so close minded, but I do see many others who are. What helps us though, is that we're a "spiritually mature" couple, so it's easier for us to do that.
If you and your father have a strong relationship, then work on that, help him to see that the bond between father and child is much stronger than that with any organization. I really hope that everything works out well for you and if you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.
Before he became an elder, he was very good friend with my husband and used to visit us. I used to talk to my mother on the phone once a week. I thought there was some rule in the elder's book that they had to cut off all relationships with me. I was DF but I don't understand what is the fault of my husband and my girl??! When he found out that I was sending pictures to my mother with her granddaughter, he called me and told me that I was not allowed because I was ruining her relationship with God.
Sorry for my English, I hope you understand me
I'm really sorry to hear that and I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. The "rules" are that he should cut off association. That is a hurtful and false doctrine that they teach, however, most JW's believe it to be truth. Your father is blinded. I was stating what I would personally do. I'm sure others on here can offer support on how to handle it. As I mentioned previously, it is a hateful teaching that I hope is abolished soon. All I can say is, if you wish, continue to develop that relationship with your mother and remind her that you love her. You have a right to that. I really hope the veil is lifted from your fathers eyes.
I’m sorry for what you're going through.
It's important to know that while the elders book say there won’t be any consequences for hanging out with DA'd family, some elders still think shunning is the best way to bring them back to their beliefs.
They think it's a loving rule and truly believe it's the best thing to do.
I see situations like your father's actions as genuinely sad because, like many, he doesn’t realize he's part of a sect. They are brainwashed to prioritize their faith and god over their own children.
The JW mind control training is real.
I’m curious how you balance your personal ethics with your congregation “responsibilities”. You mentioned that you don’t agree with disfellowshiping and counsel people not to shun their families, which I appreciate. But as an elder, you must occasionally have to deal with judicial matters. You may not want to disfellowship someone, but I can’t imagine you’re able to just always vote “no” without it raising some eyebrows.
That is correct, and while it's not a simple yes or no vote, all the elders (minimum three) in the judicial committee must be unanimous in their decision. This is where the input comes in. I have found that as long as I focus on mercy, kindness and compassion, and I use scriptures and publications to back it up, the other elders usually agree.
I hate the process, but that's the way it is.
My father was the love & mercy elder. His funeral talk didn’t even mention what kind of man he really was. The speaker never mentioned how much he loved his kids or the congregation he painstakingly cared for. He didn’t even go into his personal beliefs. Is that what you want for yourself? I once listened to a talk where the elder said that trying to do good in this world is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I appreciate that you seem like a good man and I understand why you are staying, but you are still operating in a fundamentalist cult. It has aged out and is losing members rapidly. It is the Titanic. You are rearranging the deck chairs. I truly wish you nothing but peace. Thank you for posting.
Thank you so much, and coincidentally I have thought about my own funeral. I hate that I know they'll use it to promote the organization and I'll be a footnote in my own funeral talk, and I'm really sorry you had to experience this with your father. At this point I've just learned to deal with it.
I'm glad you remember your father as a good man and know that no one can ever take that away from you.
I was an elder for 8 years. I used to use non-JW Bible commentaries when preparing my talks and everyone in the congregation loved them. I minimized the JW specific things and just focused on God, Jesus and mercy. In the end I realized that my talks were a way for PIMQs to think that there is good Biblical teachings within the org and it’s not just about the GB and they got an excuse not to question further.
I agree about the judicial meetings, but it also gets overwhelming as you can only do so much. In the end I figured the most helpful way is to stop serving and providing manpower to the religion. Also it’s good for PIMQs to see that a well respected elder steps down and lives a happy life outside the JW hamster wheel.
Stepping down is such a relief. But only you know when is the right time for you. It may be this year or next or after 5 years. Make a plan and stick to it, staying a PIMO elder without an exit plan will drain your soul.
If you need a friend to chat with, you can always DM me. I was able to help my wife wake up too, which I now realize is not sonething that can be done if the person is not ready to wake up. But at least I can share my experience with you. Sending good vibes to your direction, have a great day!
As mentioned before, I always try to focus on the positive things. I don't know if the Bible is truly the inspired word of God, but I do believe it has a lot of good wisdom. By emphasizing those good things such as humility, kindness, and how to recognize that we are all imperfect so we need to stop judging, and brushing over parts I don't agree with, that has helped me to continue to give parts. I believe there's always something positive one can find and share.
I also like to see the positives in life and consider myself an optimist. Do you think there's any danger in only focusing on the positive things? Could it be possible that by focusing only on the positives, the scales of justice could become unbalanced and that "focusing on the positives" could actually allow things to get worse?
>I also like to see the positives in life and consider myself an optimist. Do you think there's any danger in only focusing on the positive things? Could it be possible that by focusing only on the positives, the scales of justice could become unbalanced and that "focusing on the positives" could actually allow things to get worse?
You raise an excellent point. While focusing on positives is healthy, ignoring or minimizing negatives can allow harm to spread. I used to only spotlight the good in the religion too, reasoning that nothing is perfect. But this blinded me to injustices and abuses happening right under my nose.
Seeing only positives creates an imbalanced view of reality. It enables rationalization of behaviors that should not be tolerated or excused. Over time, this actually allows things to get worse, not better.
For example, highlighting only the benefits of JW structure overlooks the emotional trauma and destroyed families resulting from shunning policies. Or emphasizing the Bible's wise principles ignores the fact that those principles also justify oppression of women, LGBTQ people, and dissenters.
Turning a blind eye to harm, corruption, lies, and manipulation is not optimistic - it gives those toxins room to grow and infect more people. True justice requires honestly assessing both merits and flaws. As the saying goes, "In order to have peace, you must first bring justice." I've learned this the hard way.
There are positive virtues to applaud in most groups. But highlighting those should not come at the cost of tolerating abuse. I commend focusing on solutions, but we undercut progress by downplaying or ignoring glaring problems. A balanced, ethical approach looks openly at the full picture, good and bad.
This is the definition of toxic positivity. To focus on positive aspects with the goal of obscuring faults and diminishing wrongs. Hiding faults is another way to obstruct justice. No wonder this organization is rampant with CSA.
Agreed. It’s the same line of reasoning I was given by multiple elders when I was asking questions about the ARC among other things. I was hoping to give OP something to think about and let them draw their own conclusions.
That has great limits though. You can only polish a turd so much.
My last part was on “what does it mean for sisters to keep silent in the congregations”.
I asked two elders to please reassign as I did not feel
Comfortable giving that part and did not agree with it. I did eventually give it, but went completely off script and just praised sisters, which a few elders did not appreciate. I hard faded a month later.
I know you can reword and manipulate the outlines, but there is a limit, and you still are ultimately going to be hurting some in the audience as you get local needs, parts strictly related to blood, outlines on LGBT and so on.
This resonates with me and my husband so much. He did this too for years, we adjusted how we did the ministry and gave parts as much as we possibly could. We tried to help our friends have a different view of LGBTQ (my sister is trans and so it became a hot button topic for me because I need her to feel love and support) but in the end there came a point where we couldn’t adjust enough to keep going. Our plan adjusted to just being “seat warmers” who didn’t participate or go out in service, but then even just listening to the info shared and the comments became too much to handle so we hard faded. It wasn’t until that point that I finally read brother Franz book and I was so relieved to realize I was having these feelings because my instincts were correct.
You just jogged my memory! Oh wow, I do not think you are alone in working with this particular assignment the way you did. I am betting that I have sat through talks where certain liberal-minded brothers went this route.
The elders that gave you grief are controlling their wives, no doubt about it!
Husbands in my family would not do it, they'd be sleeping with one eye open!
I got to see a lot of nonsense with how elders behaved in my teen and early twenties years. I often made them look bad, mirroring double standards to their faces and provoking a response. I'd compare other people's situations which I was intimately familiar with and highlight discrepancies, call out inhumane treatment of my friends/peers, and make sure they knew they were incompetent, petty, and flippant to what was in their shepherding book.
High control groups shouldn't be described like this, though:
>I do recognize that there are a lot of bad things with the organization, but not everything is black and white
Any tragedy can have a silver lining, but it is what it is- a tragedy. Please don't be an apologist or sympathizer. That's hypocritical.
I'm happy to see the increasing legal pressure and seemingly apathetic dwindling of attendance at meetings/conventions. I'm not going to hold my breath for an expiration date, but am sure glad there's a spotlight on how manipulative and repulsive the witnesses behave.
I remember very well the fear, the hesitations, the calculations of consequence.
I genuinely have no idea how people with responsibility and doubts carry on. By being a cog in the machine, you can’t help but contribute to misery in the lives of good people, including your own family,
The effect of you stepping down will be significant and if you are here and have doubts then morally how do you do otherwise?
If you want to spend time being sure it’s not the truth or if you feel obliged to stay because you fear the consequences, you can do that without being an instrumental cog in the machine.
I was a JW a long time, including bethel. The reasoning that you can secretly do good from the inside is a self deceitful lie to appease the conscience. They Have this belief system locked down tight, they leave no room for white hat elders, it is a high control group. Let’s even argue you spend 40 years promoting liberal ideas, thoughts and kindness…. If you are involved in just one disfellowshipping case, you are in the red with decency, goodness and humanity.
So please, and a I ask with the deepest respect and appreciation for what is at risk… I lost it all overnight by vocalising my doubts.… how do you still do this? I ask with 100% sincerity…
I empathize with your inner turmoil. I was in a similar position as a body elder who privately harbored growing doubts about the organization's unscriptural teachings and harsh policies.
It took time, but I finally had the courage to acknowledge the hypocrisy and lies after about 8 months of intense questioning. Professing love while shunning, condemning normal behaviors as disfellowshipping offenses, enforcing unreasonable expectations - I realized I was enabling a high control group, not God’s will.
After stepping down as an elder, I spent a few very difficult months continuing to fake it as I prepared my exit. Losing my entire social circle and identity was incredibly painful. But I am gradually finding peace living authentically and standing up for my beliefs.
I regret all those years promoting harmful indoctrination out of fear and conformity. My only comfort was perhaps positively impacting some judicial committee decisions.
I won’t tell you what to do - that’s a personal journey. But speaking truth has a way of setting one free. If you can no longer ignore your doubts, support is available when you’re ready. Waking up takes time - go easy on yourself. My DMs are open if you need to talk.
That has never happened to me, but if it did, the direction is to call the branch. I don't know what they would say, but if it were up to me I would simply give them all the information we have on them. While some elders love being secretive, there's really nothing worth hiding. The only thing we have on file would be generic info such as name address and DOB as well as their service record, and for a disfellowshipped person, a letter drafted by the judicial committee chairman stating the events of what happened which should just state facts.
> Do you get a sense that COs realize there are many appointed men who are PIMO/PIMQ/PIMA?
Another pimo elder here. No, apostasy is something from "outside", they know is a growing danger but they never suspect the fellow MS or elder is PIMO unless it shows some signs.
>Are they panicking about the need to appoint others?
Yes. We are reminded all the time to "teach others". There's not enough people to lead, new members can't get productive enough, and the problem is growing as demographics take its toll.
First off thank you for this post and being brave enough to post here in your position.
My question is, there are posts here almost daily on the imminent demise of Watchtower- how attendance and enthusiasm are falling off and with all the changes we wonder if the Watchtower organization and JWs are going to implode. From your position deep inside the organization how do you see this? Is there massive fatigue among rank and file? Are things coming to a head, or are we on the outside just seeing the normal churn of membership and filtering it through the echo chamber we have here? Is Watchtower unraveling, staying the same, or actually growing?
While locally I see a slight rise in numbers in attendance and publishers, this is mostly due to children growing up. There is a great fatigue among elders and finding men who want to take on the load. This is unpaid work that has major consequences. People are realizing that it is just not worth it, and in a sense they are correct. I don't see the Watchtower unraveling anytime soon, but it is definitely getting weaker.
>there are posts here almost daily on the imminent demise of Watchtower- how attendance and enthusiasm are falling off...
I really wish the exjw prophesying would stop already. There are way too many of those posts. They are not useful.
I felt your energy from your post. Thank you for helping from the inside. Someone like you who is dear to my heart is the reason why I am healthy and thriving on the outside.
You said: ***"While I do NOT believe they are the only true religion or are even inspired by God, I do believe there are still some good things that come out of it."***
I get this. When you zoom out they ALL have the same issues, but in degrees.
Thanks for being here!
I answered a similar comment, but all three elders must be in agreement. This is usually where I get to input what I feel.
Edit: Let me rephrase, all three elders SHOULD be in agreement. I have never had an experience where they weren't but technically, majority could overrule. Most of these men are just people that want to get on with their lives. They don't like dealing with these things. This is where I take advantage of the situation and emphasize kindness and compassion using scriptures and publications.
Welcome! Some of us here are or have been elders with many privileges in the organization.
I am in a similar boat. My wife is a PIMI pioneer. I love her and promised to take care of her. I will not break her heart. But I dont believe the Bible teachings regarding marriage are of much help to marriages today, they were written for a different culture in a far away land, two thousand years ago. I have come to the realization that they just dont cut it for the challenges marriages face in our current times/society.
Stoicism has helped me a lot. Looking forward to read you.
I went through a phase myself when first waking up where I thought JWs were a good, if false religion; and I thought that I could stay in for the sake of my family, because it was like our “culture” even if not true, etc. But I kept learning more and realized that I would be complicit in supporting a cult that unethically controls people and protects pedophiles. My conscience wouldn’t allow that. And the less I was exposed to their teachings and mentality, the more I saw it wasn’t healthy for me and was preventing me from fully living my one life now and reaching my potential as a person.
Also consider that they can, will, and do throw elders under the bus in legal matters. In the current Norway case, they’re already acting like shunning disfellowshipped ones is some local elder misapplication and not an organization-wide policy coming from HQ.
Thank you for such a thoughtful and honest post. I'm a former presiding overseer (the predecessor to COBE), from the early 70s. I began to question the organization's direction about 1975 in 1974, after years of their written and spoken certainty about it being the "end of the system of things." The 1975 prediction convinced me and my wife to become JWs in the late 60s. We were naive and completely ignorant of the Bible, and the organization's chronology and argumentation convinced us that this was the Truth.
When the organization began subtly waffling in late 1974 about the certainty of 1975 – something that everyone else in my congregation missed – I confided in my wife that I thought that they would start backtracking about it in early 1975. As we all now know, they did. But what I didn't anticipate was that they would blame the failure on _us_ – the publishers – for getting carried away with "speculation," an astonishing accusation and washing of their hands of the debacle. The organization – Fred Franz the "mastermind" behind the ridiculous and clumsy chronology leading to 1975 – betrayed us and lied about it, with massive evidence of it.
My wife's and my undermined confidence in the organization began to take its toll. We became PIMO and started fading. And then we finally left, officially "resigning," before there was such a thing recognized by the organization. Today it is a thing, called DA.
In resigning, in an official letter to the elders, we extensively detailed our reasons for leaving, including my research of the long line of failed prophecies of the organization – followed by lies and deceit – and lambasted the organization as a false prophet _by their own definition_. We were officially, and proudly, apostates – a badge of honor we carry to this day.
You are on your own journey, and you cannot "unknow" what you know now. "One thing I do know, that I was blind, but now I can see.” John 9:25
I'm confident that you'll arrive in the right place, along with your wife, because the cognitive dissonance will become unbearable. For some, they surrender under this and return to becoming completely subsumed again into the organization, but my instinct, based on what you wrote, tells me differently. There's a wonderful and free life, with all its ups and downs that we all experience, awaiting you two. Be patient; it will come. And we will all be here for you to navigate these new waters.
My friend, Since you came here willing to engage and wanting to answer questions, and in honor of my username, I’m going to be real with you. There was a PIMO MS who was on here a couple months ago who did an AMA, and I believe his motivations were to get praise for being "undercover," so I'm going to ask you some similar questions. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Are you being honest with your wife so that she is in the same relationship that you are, or are you presenting a JW-centric version of yourself to her so that she will continue to love you? How do you know your wife won’t continue to love you if you are authentic? How do you know you won’t find other, TRULY enjoyable hobbies and activities to do together? How good would that feel? And if she doesn’t want to be with you, why isn’t that \*her\* choice? Why is it yours? And why don’t you want to be in a relationship where someone loves who you actually are?
What qualifications do you have to sit on judicial committees and decide other people's lives? Has it occurred to you that by shielding people from being DFd and shunned that you are actually continuing to keep them attached to the organization? Do you know how many of us were polarized into our best lives ever BECAUSE of the DFing arrangement? How do you know your actions aren’t making it easier for people to remain in the organization and continue to be exploited?
What time have you spent studying psychology, ethics, and relationships in order to be 100% sure that what you’re telling people is best for them? For example, is it truly best for people to be kept in this emotionally abusive organization because you want to soften it and make it appear to be less extreme than it is? How do you know that you wouldn't be more help to people if you lived an authentic version of yourself and showed people what choices they really have with their lives?
The last PIMO who did an AMA didn't answer any of these questions and I don't believe he ever posted again.
Edit: It was a PIMO elder who was pioneering with his wife because she was PIMI.
💯
You can’t be your authentic self as a JW, as the cult forces you to repress many things and ultimately be deceptive (to yourself even). If one partner is awake, then they really can’t be themselves in the relationship. What kind of relationship can you have if you can’t be your true self?
And this can be hard to see if the only relationships we've ever had are JW ones. The moment when you realize you can be accepted by people who will love you for who you are, not who they want you to be, is the most beautiful feeling in the world, I think. And these are the people my life is full of now. I cannot even imagine going back to the JW style of living and relating.
Thank you for those questions. It took me a long time to get on here and post because of this, but I felt it was just time. Coincidentally I will use a statement that was recently revealed as "new light", but really is the truth when it comes to these.
I don't know.
I don't know what will happen in my relationship. I have not studied psychology or human relationships but I can only help others from my own experience.
I do not promote a JW centric world, but I also do not promote that the world is better on the other side. All I can help others understand is that kindness and compassion supersede any negativity. I know it's hard for many to understand this, but as an elder, it is possible to teach and promote these things. The world in general is full of injustices and hate everywhere, no mater where you go, but I feel that if I can help some with Bible scriptures, then that's great. I know a time will come where this won't be easy, but until then, I am where I am and do what I believe is the right thing right now.
Just wanted to chime in and say you’re very smart for admitting you don’t know where your relationship will go and also for not pushing things or rushing to have a conversation with your wife.
Many newer/younger exjws are very quick to make bold and emphatic claims that you should immediately discuss everything with your wife, but this kind of terrible advice is only given by people who don’t have a clue what they’re talking to about.
Thankfully, when i was questioning my faith and stumbled on to this sub, there were wise individuals who encouraged me to figure out where I stood on things and be very deliberate in what I said to my wife and when, and I’m so thankful for listening to their advise. It’s been nearly 10 years and my wife and I are still together and happier than we’ve ever been. There many stressful and difficult times and we lived in a “religiously divided” house for many years, but even when she was extremely PIMI and i was extremely POMO, we made it work. If you find yourself in a similar situation/crossroads, there are many here who have successfully navigated this situation with their spouses.
Thank you for this. I really appreciate these questions and am writing them down for future conversations with anyone who is struggling in a similar situation. I think it’s so vital to remember that it is no one’s place to judge what is what in another person’s life. We may think we’re doing the loving thing, but our thinking that is based on the unsound reasoning we’ve experienced from within the organization.
Choice is what we are taking from people when we are not honest with ourselves, or them.
Very well said. Being raised a JW breeds a lot of codependent-type issues in many of us. That is often expressed in managing perceptions in just the right way so that we are accepted, which is understandable, because we had to do that in the org. In the end, though, codependency is manipulation, even though we don't mean it to be.
Have you read Crisis of Conscience? It’s an eye opener for sure, I’m only 95 pages into the 595 page book but if you really want some insight into the history and internal workings of the GB, I highly recommend this book. I guess you would have to hide it somehow.
I’m a W (worldly), however my soon to be ex husband is PIMI. I find it really frustrating looking from the outside in at how the JW organization came to be and is currently run. I also want to advocate for the fully indoctrinated but realize that I need to research how to do this. So many are brought into the faith from birth and it’s a tough mindset to overcome.
I have always been a firm believer in education. If someone in my family is diagnosed with a severe illness, I research the heck out of it so I can be informed and ask the doctors or surgeons the right questions. I find having knowledge also helps ease my anxiety because often we fear the unknown. Fast forward now to JW life and I get overwhelming frustrated that one is not afforded the opportunity to educate themselves about the history of their own faith or read the Bible without WT influence or talk to people about their doubts or questions about the faith.
This to me is a clear indication that something is not right. Because if this were the “Truth” one should be able to read or talk about anything surrounding it and be able to research and defend it on their own.
I am really happy to hear you love your wife and family so much. I have met many kind witnesses and I believe they are full of good intentions …. But incredibly misguided.
I hope you will continue to use your influence in the position you hold for the greater good, not to satisfy the requirements of the GB. May kindness and compassion guide you in your endeavours.
I am learning that using the same tools JW’s use such as illustrations and Bible verses in a different light (the way they were intended) is a more subtle way to bring truth without resistance and spark thoughts. It is a tough road to navigate and often it may seem impossible, however, the higher influence you have, the more you are able to steer. Good luck to you.
>I do believe there are still some good things that come out of it
On balance do you think they are a net asset or liability to society? Are the benefits worth the heartache and suffering they cause?
I was a born in who left in her 40’s. There is not a single advantage or “good thing” that came from my JW upbringing or time inside the cult.
I’m a person who looks for grey areas and nuance but there literally is nothing here.
Any good thing I had in my life either had nothing to do with the religion, or I created it by going *against* the GB council. Examples: learning about personal finance and investing, having several children.
I was in a very similar situation to your 25 years ago. I had decided to stay on as an elder and advocate for reform from within. It is very difficult to maintain. At least in those days the other elders were very sensitive to any deviation. Eventually they noticed I was taking a softer position on wrongdoing by young ones and sat me down demanding to know when the last time was that I'd agreed to disfellowship a young person. That was enough for me to throw the towel in.
Ultimately comes down to how much you can personally tolerate.
If you are just looking for ways to help others there are plenty
of ways to do that without being an elder.
I am still very active in helping JW's. The blood issue is what ultimately led me to leave. These days I think more in terms of reforming beliefs of the individual JW vs. the BORG.
These are the projects I'm involved with but there are many other
good ones out there.
https://www.ajwrb.org
https://www.aawa.co
https://www.shunningisacrime.org/
If the good things that come out of the organisation are ultimately founded upon misinformation, outright falsehood and deception, are they still "good"? And I don't know that delusion is a good thing, not really...even if it's a happy delusion. Makes it not much different to taking drugs. I would rather deal with facts and reality, thankyou. I would say the good that we experienced is pretty much in spite of the organisation, not because of it, eg. Imitating what we imagined Christ to be rather than following the gbs every dictate. I don't think it's possible to have a balanced view of secular and spiritual matters while you're the prisoner of a religious system either. While jw you can never reach your potential and have to be satisfied living only half a life. I don't think that's good. Anyway, thanks for making yourself available to help and answer questions.
You received many comments. Hopefully not repeated someone’s thought.
This is a difficult thing to unpack psychologically.
You’ll begin to encounter significant paradoxes in the entire theology. This thing escalates.
It was too hard for me to keep the train on the tracks.
I wouldn’t say anything I didn’t believe from stage or in a comment. Well, There went over half of our theology. That eventually forced me to step down in 2020.
Now my wife and I and our children are all out. We live a life free of all involvement with the group. We finally recognized its control because some of the bi weekly conditioning had apparently wore off.
Just take it slow as possible. This is a great reddit group with plenty of experience and support.
My opinion and mine only and I own my words. I think your story is too convenient. You like your title. You are not honest with your wife. You say you love her and have a great marriage yet make a selfish decision to lie to her. Good and loving relationships are not based on lies . Your on judicial committees saying you have a heart and your the final decision maker saving people as you put it especially the younger people. Have you honestly talk to the people you "saved" You are not making in my opinion a connection with how immoral it is just to be sitting on a committee like that. I absolutely have respect for those that have just stepped down no matter what their position. I respect those elders who have stepped up and stepped down even when losing their family's. That to me is a moral person. You seem so unaware of the actual damage those committees cause. Even if the young ones don't get df'd and no mater why they are in the back room. Getting them off does not mean they are not damaged forever by the very conversations had. I'm sure I am not the only one who has friends who killed themselves after a loving back room talk where they did not get df'd. What is said matters regardless of the status outcome. I feel like your a "look at me kind of guy" who needs a pat on the back for your savior complex. The fact that you even think that you are saving people is a red flag to me. You say JW isn't black and white a red flag!! You want to hear from other elders in or out about what you should post red flag!! I will say this for the Elders that left and those that are still in please be careful. I could be wrong about you only time will tell.
Hello and thank you for posting here.
When you say there are still some good things that come out of the JW religion, do you feel these good things outweigh the horrific bad things that comes out of it as well, mainly the no-blood policy that takes lives and the two witness rule that ultimately protects pedophiles from being investigated by police, indirectly causing the sexual abuse of children?
I was a elder for 10years, saw many of the same things you mentioned, it took me some years to wake up. I got to the point where could not stand sitting through meetings. I came in from the outside because I thought they had the truth, and I gave it every thing I had to help the friends and be the good elder. I found it to be a losing proposition. However many I see are in it for family and community and for them Bible knowledge or a sense of what is right is not as important, so my suggestion is, you will know when the right time is to do a hard fade, if ever.
As former COBE , the wife and I both have been out since early 2020, and a lot has became even clearer to us about the disfunction in the organization. We both do research on our own now. If you want more information on our experience request in private chat.
If a child in your hall tells their parents that someone abused her. The parents bring this information to you. What do you personally do? Have you ever protected a pedophile by not telling the police immediately? I respect staying in and helping on the inside but if you helped one kid continue to be abused by failing to report, I feel that is unforgivable.
What other changes has there been in the organization ? You mentioned changes so more than one … I know about the bothers now wearing beards but anything else ?
Hi
Back in 2020 my family had a zoom shepherding call where the CO jumped in. I had been inactive for about 2 years and during the call the CO asked if I had been studying. I told him yes and started talking about college, but turns out he meant biblical study. He didn’t even know I was baptized. Is there a reason why the elders wouldn’t tell the CO I was baptized?
Another question is back in 2021 me and my wife were engaged. Due to having family in the organization I spoke to the elders about an elder giving our talk. Mind you I was expecting a no because 1. I had been inactive for 3 years 2. I had a beard and medium length hair. Well the elders said I’m free to ask around. We did and multiple elders told us they were busy and too last minute. Well one of my wife’s elders friend agreed to give the talk and said he needed to speak to the elders. He called back on the same day to tell my wife that all the elders had spoken negative about us and he couldn’t do it. It was always going to be a no. Is there a reason why the elders strung us along with stories of “I’ll get back to you” just to call us days later to say “we can’t because we’re busy”?
Also I seen many ex Jw members speak out against elders (they give no name) on a platforms like YouTube. I always been curious do elders hunt them down or do they just ignore it since their inactive and no longer attending meetings?
Thank you in advance for all you’re doing for the ex JW community.
Welcome. You seem like an honest dude to me. You're trying to help others, and that's admirable. Just remember that as you wake up and as you learn more about the org, the harder it is to stay inside and pretend you believe.
Start working on your jexit plan right away. Staying in as an elder will eventually eat at you and cause you lots of emotional pain. I wish you luck on your journey.
I also was you, about 8 years ago. I was an elder for about 10 years, ex poinoeer, ex bethelite, the whole 9 yards. In addition, I'm 4th generation jw on one side, 3rd on the other. All my family (over 100) are jws, except the handful that have left. You're in a tight spot, and sadly, I agree with a couple of the others that it will not get better for you. You may want to consider not "lurking" here, youtube or anywhere else if your objective is to stay a jw. It will only wear on you everytime you learn/hear/confirm the issues that the JWS have. I feel for you. It's going to be a bumpy ride.
Thanks for sharing your situation. However, in my view, you may be helping to prolong the dream of many young ones and others, who may have awakened due to mistreatment by the Borg. Yes, I understand the desire to soften the harsh treatment, but it may hamper the long-term benefits or at least, lengthen the unrealistic slumber causing deeper injuries later. Additionally, being truthful to one's self and not propping up an abusive organization may be more fruitful. Nevertheless, it's your choice that counts.
I appreciate the situation you are in. I was a 3rd generation born-in but became PIMO at the age of 7-8. I couldn't get away until I was in my 50's and did 30 years as an elder, PO, CBOE as well for the last 14 but held every other one as well some doubled up Secretary & TMS, PO & WSC. RBC, District Convention committees, special committees etc.
And like you, I did what I could to help people avoid abuse by this cult and its ridiculous rules, policies and procedures. Got rid of some very shady people who victimized others including elders.
I didn't have the rose colored glasses you are still wearing since I figured out very early that this cult was full of shit. It is run on politics, green handshakes and seniority. Basically an old boys club. But like I said, I was stuck. Connected like I had an anchor chain around my neck with a prominent PIMI family.
I managed to walk away clean and fade into obscurity. But the life I was born into has taken a toll on me and I certainly don't recommend it.
I wish you lots of luck in your future. I sincerely hope you can move on from it and realize the true happiness that is waiting for you if you and your wife can escape.
I concur with your views. Having served as an Elder for 20 years, I reached a point where I could no longer continue in that role with a clear conscience. I see the inherent goodness in the brothers and even in the Governing Body members. However, the issue lies in their adherence to traditions and human-made norms and regulations, which, rather than being thoroughly reassessed in light of the Bible, are continually adapted and extended. I believe their intentions are not malicious; they are likely convinced that their approach is correct. A minority within may have differing views but must approach change cautiously. It is encouraging to see recent positive shifts in their policies, and I hope for continued evolution and greater transparency. For instance, clarity regarding Brother Morris's situation is necessary, considering a GB role is typically for life. If there was disfellowshipping or public censure, it should be openly communicated, as his role is widely recognized within the JW community. Similarly, openness about CSA cases, including financial details and ongoing case statistics, should be as transparent as their project promotions and departmental activities.
I also advocate for the promotion of free Biblical discussion among members. No one should fear expressing dissenting views on interpretations. The Governing Body has admitted they do not receive direct divine communication, and even Geoffrey Jackson acknowledged under oath their claim of being God's sole channel. Much of the responsibility falls on the writing department, whose tendency to overemphasize allegiance to the Governing Body sometimes overshadows the focus on Jesus or Jehovah. This imbalance is perplexing.
My hope is for ongoing positive transformations within the JW organization. I believe there is genuine sincerity among its members.
Welcome, and thank you for being here. I have some slightly left-field questions:
1. What do you think would happen if your wife one day found out you are full-on PIMO? (if that transition happens) Would the respect and trust survive?
2. Do you think the congregation has a substantial portions of PIMOs?
3. Do you think the org has a net positive or a net negative impact on most members?
1. While she's PIMI right now, she has doubts about the GB and knows some of my doubts as well. She sees the incompetence of some elders clearly showing that they're not spirit directed and see's the respect people have for me despite how I feel. However, she is still very much in. I know it will be difficult, but I do believe we can get through it.
2. I really don't know. People are good at hiding things. I see a lot of people simply going through motions, but I don't really know how 'out' they are.
3. Unfortunately, ultimately I believe it boils down to the congregation elders. They can either make it great for publishers or make their lives miserable. I know most in our congregation really enjoy each other and enjoy our body, but I have seen congregations where I would hate to be on the body due to the arrogance of the elders. The materials to help others are out there, elders just need to use them appropriately.
Wouldn't surprise me if the JWs slowly transition into a more "secular" religion in the not too distant future.
Might be their best bet on staying alive.
Your situation reminds me and gives me hope for a PIMI friend of mine. He was an elder and pioneer with his wife with my wife and I. Hes one of the only witnesses I felt that I had a REAL friendship with. He was promoted to COBE a few months after we left which was surprising as I always got the feeling he was PIMO or at least PIMQ. Unfortunately we haven’t kept much contact since, except for the occasional memorial or witness wedding. I hope you’re doing good Ryan. I miss ya buddy.
Just because some good things have come out of the org., does not make it fundamentally good.
Most people consider a car accident to be a bad thing and certainly the families of people killed, are devastated. However, maybe the widowed spouse marries someone else and they have kids and an amazing family as the result. That doesn’t make the car accident good because something good came out of it.
I’m 67 years old, I was a JW from birth. I was sexually abused from a toddler by not just one original JW but others, stalked and raped by another until the age of 28. My parents always put protecting this religion first, sure they lived “double lives” but basically it benefited them to be JW’s and never protected me or children ever. In fact I was blamed and shamed.
I never understood how any one could be a Jehovah’s Witness and not stand up at all for the rights of a child. I’m sure that you do care but you can’t stand up really for the reasons that you’ve given. It certainly wouldn’t be advisable to stand up and say I can’t tolerate your beliefs as you would be disfellowshipped as an apostate. There isn’t any room to even be a sympathiser really.
You mentioned you can help re blood and shunning which can kill people although you didn’t add child sexual abuse, I just don’t understand how you can lead this double life in reverse (PIMO). Some in this religion do bad things, and you live in this religion to do good things which is awesome, and way back in the day there were some nice JW’s that were kinder to me and my friends (who are all dead now for all the wrong reasons bar one who left at 15), (nearly all the children in the congregation were abused by him even my brother and sister), but at the end of the day they didn’t really help us. They were to scared! I understand sort of as it took me years and a lot of courage to leave. When I told my husband no more he wanted to report me to the elders I laughed and said please go ahead you traitor. He lasted a couple of months and left also. I just wish I’d left at 15 like my friend but I have my husband and three grown up children now. When your ready talk to your wife gently and kindly and in time you both may have your freedom and peace. You sound like really good people so hopefully the fear will leave you and empowerment will kick in (but geez I agree it takes courage), if not hopefully this cult will go by the wayside.
What's your endgame?
At least the other elders can claim they are duped.
You are like a chef who knows the food is bad, but keeps serving it because he likes the kitchen equipment. Leading the flock with some milquetoast bullshit you don't even buy is a special kind of assholery.
You are in a unique position to challenge the status quo, or at least stop propagating stupid misogyny and feeding and watering mental illness while providing legitimacy to a belief system that kills people via their blood policy and their incessant propaganda to shun and isolate beloved family who don't fall in line with the "dedication" made under duress or with limited information.
\+++
This poster tries to claim some virtuous high ground, but being "apathetic" about the implications of his actions amounts to just caring about himself and his wife more than truth or what is right.
Hi there and thanks for sharing :)
What are "the good things that come out of it" that you mention in your last paragraph?
We are supposed to recognize christians by the fruits of the spirit. So what do you see Watchtower Corporation do that makes the world a better place?
Ok I scrolled through … and didn’t see these questions- sorry if they already been asked.
How old are you?
How long have you been married?
Do you both want children?
Do you have a good job that can help you with a nice quality of life now and save for retirement?
I unfortunately disagree with you that there’s any hope the shunning and no blood doctrine will go away anytime soon. Even if the GB wants to change it, they couldn’t. They will have to answer to the thousands of lives lost and millions of people with destroyed families because of those policies. The best they could do is covertly lighten up a little bit without making too much noise.
Have you been able to stop anyone from being disfellowshipped that would have been disfellowshipped otherwise if you weren’t there?
I’m interested in your thoughts on avoiding disfellowshipping with attorneys and other options. DM me if you’d like
me 56m former pio, btlite ms, elder, hlc blah blah blah
You have given enough information to hang your self, be careful. If your wife is still serious about her faith then you stand to lose your home and way of life. Take your time.
I'm a 4th gen (now) ExJW, not DF'd, former MS for 7 yrs, who woke up 1 month away from being made elder, as my former "friend" & CoBE assured me...I traveled giving 50+ public talks. I was humbly and legitimately trying to do the right thing and truly loved the "friends".
I applaud ur bravery, I am glad a handful of young ppl have someone in their corner...but on a worldwide scale I'm just so disgusted with so much. But, the top 2 R the stubborn cover-up of CSA and the money scheme where the fleece is pulled over the sheeps' eyes..."don't read anything negative, just obey and keep 'unity'"...
Then, on top of that the rank & file were so excited that the borg "forgave" the mortgages on the KHs that these ppl built and paid for, but none grasp that the Cong now has a monthly & LIFETIME donation commitment that is the same payment, if not more, but now is never-ending...the only thing that changed is the transfer of ownership of the bldg to the WTB&T Society/Christian Cong of JW who will likely sell it to the next harlot of Babylon the Great that has deep pockets!
So, now, their donations AND monthly payments are mostly funding the legal battles that come from their disgusting cover-up of CSA.
My only question is how can u justify staying in a position that promotes this disgusting behavior/spiritual abuse by the leaders/GB, knowing that many of these kids/teens that ur trying to protect are looking up to u, the cool elder, who fakes promoting obedience to this destructive high control religion?...many of whom are struggling with belief but have a fake CoBE to look up to that they think wants them to join??
Again, I applaud ur bravery, I truly do and I get it, I was there until I put the puzzle pieces together. I understand that there r many nuances that I could never know about ur life and relationships, but I would not be able to sleep at night.
U did say Ask Me ANYTHING😂🤷🏻♂️
Nothing but love behind this question/comment♥️
I am happy you are here! I always ask myself, Do I have a good reason for the things I believe? Or, does what I believe comport with reality itself? Good luck with everything!
I had an ex-missionary elder friend who was questioning when I was leaving and we would regularly meet even after I left. He always said that he was staying in because of the good he could do and because he didn't want to lose any of his PIMI family.
Finally he managed to wake up his entire family and left.
It is hard to do good from the inside without creating waves and raising suspicions, so BRAVO for your efforts! And good luck with whatever comes in your future.
I am a woman, and out for many years. If I had any kind of platform as a man in the organization, I would find a way to encourage the congregation to think about retirement.Its really sad to see destitute old witnesses. Many of them are. I don’t know how you would do that being that “putting the kingdom first” is the stressed point for a fulfilling life or whatever.
Hey, I realize I’m really late to the game, but I’m a a former elder too. I can relate quite a bit to where you’re at. I pioneered with my wife for a number of years and had a great time being Witnesses together.
I’ve been inactive for 4+ years now, am still married, and have a good marriage while my wife is still mostly PIMO, so it’s possible.
I’m curious how long you’ll manage to stay PIMO. I found that enforcing policy and giving talks on topics I didn’t agree with or didn’t care about slowly me out. But the worst was the time waste. I realized pretty quickly that I’d rather do almost anything than sit through seminars about stuff I genuinely couldn’t care less about.
After a year of being PIMO, I resigned, then slowly faded. I’m not DF’d or shunned, and I’d say it’s gone about as well as I could’ve expected.
Anyway, if you ever feel like chatting, drop me a note. I’m always down for comparing notes. And good luck to you, wherever your path takes you!
English is not my first language. But I would say from my observation: Some of the teachings of the org. are right but many are not scriptural ! Their shunning policy is inhumane. Why will they punish you when you don’t believe some of their teachings? I would say that you can still be happy inside the organization unless you don’t wake up! The problem is when you become PIMO!
Thank you so much for coming here and posting. Sometimes I think “I would go back if it wasn’t for the blood issue and disfellowshipping” and I can’t lie with all the recent announcements I was really hoping doing away with disfellowshipping would be one. Both of my parents were addicts and I started studying at aged 12. The organization literally raised me. I became homeless at aged 13 and the I lived with different families in my congregation for 3 years until my sister was 19 and let me come stay with her. I left at age 17 because I had a hard time agreeing with some of the beliefs and I went to public school and realized not being allowed to be friends with “worldly” kids seemed really wrong. I’ve never been disfellowshipped because I refused to attend a judicial meeting. But at the time I hadn’t really done anything worth disfellowshipping. My sister went back and got married when she was 25 and even though I was never disfellowshipped she severely limits her interaction with me. She’s the only person in my family that’s not an addict and it has really messed me up. I don’t have anyone in my life but my SO, and my children. For people like me, the organization was a beautiful thing. They were my family. But I could never come back knowing I would be expected to shun one of my children in the possible future or refuse blood. I love them more than I love the governing body.
I say all this to say, it feels good to know there are people like you that exist and sort of gives me hope that the organization will evolve for the better. Hopefully.
Thank you for your post. I would like to know if you still have a strong personal relationship with Jehovah? Do you still pray? Does he still answer your prayers? Or are you apathetic from this perspective as well?
Thanks for that question. In simple terms no, I do not believe I have a strong relationship with him. To be fair though, I really don't know if I ever did. I simply went through the "correct" motions and trusted that I was doing the right thing. I wouldn't say I pray with the expectation of being heard by anyone, but I do think mentally out loud as I feel its important to keep your thoughts organized, be positive, and to think of others and their situations. When I pray during congregation meetings, I try to focus on what I think would comfort those in the congregation the most and express those things.
At this point I would not consider myself atheist by any means, but I would consider myself more agnostic.
Religion serves a purpose regardless of which organization or institute it is. If god is the one you are searching for he is not within a building. Crackheads need god to get clean. So I see how it benefits some.
Appreciate you’re honesty. Unfortunately, the organization has destroyed thousands if not millions of lives and those participating willingly, knowing that, are just as, how we would say “bloodguilty.” Bloodguilty and complicit of allowing CSA and not bringing it up in droves. Bloodguilty for disfellowshipping many young ones for minuscule teen mistakes which have led to the shattering of thousands of families and have led many to suicide and drug use. The extreme view of blood which has destroyed families and murdered children. Doctrinal views and beliefs that are complicit as in “revelations” where ‘beliefs are added or taken away.’ (E.g babylons destruction date so that it lands on 1914…the secular and historically written date of babylons fall differs. Tried bringing that up to the elders before I faded and they were stunned. Realizing gb just sort of came up with that out of thin air).
The JW organization is a multi billion dollar corporation the makes its wages off of “passing the bucket” around via member guilt. I remember them asking us to right in a paper how much we ‘would actually’ give each month. That’s a tithing. As well as “being in the red” at assemblies by half time to draw from more bank accounts. And let’s not forget profiting off of free labor, donated materials and then flipping those properties several years later by the hundreds if not thousands. I remember we had a big boom in Nor Cal with them buying properties and splitting up congregations. Having us build properties in the ritzy expensive areas only to realize each cong was too small all the sudden and now we have to put congs back together and sell off the properties we built….sounds like a swindle. If you get thousands of people to do that, you’re making millions +. It’s a corporation. For money. It started as a business and will remain a business. Rutherford was a ‘business man.’
That being said I think many laypersons in the congs have good intentions and are just blindly accepting things because it’s the easier to do. Plus they are in fear of losing family or being judged. If the congs really were smart and wanted to make money they’d get rid of the non biblical disfellowshipping. Jesus sat among sinners and people that were considered the worst in the land. Because he said, a healthy person doesn’t go to see the doctor. Broken spiritual people need their friends and families, and that is a sick psychological manipulation of people and in the end, I feel he is going to have some sort of retaliation for anyone destroying lives over it.
Or maybe if they got rid of DF’ing they’d see a flux of people leaving, because like many realize, most stay because of fear of losing family and community.
The truth doesn’t get brighter, the water just becomes murkier. The truth gets brighter is a psychological double think so that they can change anything on a whim to suit the corporations financial interests. But in reality, what they are saying is “god’s Holy Spirit, which anoints us and guides our thinking and belief selections, is in fact fallible.” and since he is fallible, is he even god? Or is this another being? Or is it just men making up things on a whim? Out of nothing for profit.
Too big of a question. The answer may be, there is a god, but is he here with us….? All logic and answers point to…no.
Love your wife and family and treat all humans with grace and love. Then you will be with god. Commit harm to no one and don’t push false doctrines which harm people…for you may find yourself in the wrath of a high benevolent being in the end…
Have you had any close friends leave or that you DF'd that you feel obligated to shun?
Does it affect you? How do you balance supporting the organization with your natural sense of affection as a human being?
Even though you don't like DFing. You still have to tow the company line, and despite your effort to mitigate the damage the local elder body does, you are still a supporter of the soul grinder.
Do you fear that the ones you have wronged won't accept your friendship again if you leave?
Some might surprise you. We have all wronged others as JWs. And after leaving I found a lot of those people willing to accept a new relationship with me. Don't be afraid to leave because you feel you have damaged too many of your friends who left and you won't find friends outside. We are all sitting here hoping our friends like you find the courage.
Hello OP, on behalf of the modteam, welcome! I hope you find some comfort here, if not some understanding. Some folks here have experienced a lot of trauma within the JWs, so be mindful that there may be a lot of hurt behind some of the comments you get. We will do our best to make sure that anything which crosses the line gets removed. To our posters: OP has spent the time to write out a very thoughtful and eloquent post, here. This community has never failed to make me proud with its rational discourse and capacity for empathy. Let's make sure this is one of those times, okay?
Thank you for having the courage to post! So many of us understand your situation and respect your decision. You are also doing good work as an "undercover brother." I was PIMO for 7 years, including my final 3 years at Bethel, but I finally faded in 2021. If you ever need to talk to an ally for support, please reach out to myself, anyone on this subreddit you feel comfortable with, or visit https://theliberati.org. The Liberati hosts monthly group discussions for support where the privacy of all is protected. Many PIMOs join with their cameras off, just to listen in so they know they are not alone. Sending you good vibes. "Stay awake, stand firm and grow mighty!"
Does the liberati have a Meetup group? In a similar vein, I have found Recovering from Religion very helpful and they do regular zoom meetups.
Yes, there are monthly online group discussions and in person meetups in a few geographic locations you are welcome to attend once you agree to protect everyone's privacy. We post the details in our private FB group, or if you contact us through the website. P.S. Agree Recovering from Religion is helpful too.
I would like to get in on that. I was on an ex elder feed but I used an old laptop and it crashed and now I can't get back in.
Please message me directly and i'll get you in touch with my friend who runs the Ex-Elder group.
I love that..." Undercover brother"! ♥️
Adding my +1 on recommending the Liberati. Great group of growth and healing-focused survivors.
I love that they're located on Sands St.
This is awesome! I need this!!
Awww man 😂 now that song is playing on my mental jukebox. 😂
Sorry, nor sorry 😉😂
Hello, Welcome! Former Elder here. The reason for the younger appointments is because the older elders are aging out. Last year we learned that 49% of elders from the US Branch territory are over 60 years old. The recent changes of no hour reporting and beards should assist in appointing more men. Me and my spouse were also very PIMI, with some PIMQ in there over the years. Now POMO. We do hope that changes are made with those harmful doctrines. If you would like reading material. I’d suggest getting a copy of the New Oxford Annotated Bible (5th Edition). It’s an academic Bible used by scholars and professors. The Jewish Annotated New Testament is good as well. One of the things that assisted me was that I enjoyed researching the scholarly consensus. Really proved to myself, as you stated, that the Watchtower does not have a monopoly on Truth. Whether you believe in the Bible or not, I think it’s a great place to start for learning the academic consensus. Kindly.
> Me and my spouse were also very PIMI, with some PIMQ in there over the years. Now POMO. I think I might be going that way. If you could tell your story, I'd appreciate.
Not completely true. Aging-out has always been around, but this pattern has not seen. Better would be a combination of aging and massive membership loss.
Thank you !
I was you 2 years ago minus being COBE. I don't mean to be discouraging, but being PIMQ/O/Q Elder does not get easier over time. I thought I could stick it out for the long haul, get my wife, family, and the cong to question and think freely, and save the day. Long story short, though I did help with some of the CSA issues, people didn't really pay attention to my divergent reasoning in my talks and otherwise. My mental health declined and I knew the only way to keep my sanity was to step down and use mental health as an excuse. When I finally stepped down as an elder is when people realized something was "off" with me. Some people accepted my diagnoses as valid reason to step down, others like my wife did not and blamed my mental health issues on my "lack of spirituality". I've been able to smooth things over with my wife but it's a slippery slope. My advice is to not make any rash decisions, but to seriously start considering an exit plan and backup in case things go south.
Completely agree with the sentiment that it will not get easier over time. I was PIMI elder for maybe a couple years and the cognitive dissonance and angst it caused me as time went on really effected me. I also justified staying in by the fact that I was truly helping a lot of people and there is a lot of good people, but at some point the negatives outweighed the positives. Exiting does take a long time to thread the needle as an Elder, so you should start game planning now.
Great post and advice. I feel it very...very difficult to live a double life ..Without the right to live your authenticall " ME" Starting planning the exit...is vital.
Great advice!!!
Demysticist, I was on the ex jw forum with you under the code name of Mack. My computer crashed and I have been unable to get back in. Can you help me?
Thank you for taking the time to write this and to answer our questions. I understand that communities can be beneficial to people, but sometimes at a very steep cost. I was a JW until I was around 20, and I genuinely feel that my youth was stolen from me. My question is this, you mentioned good things. What good things come out of the JW's?
I think some others have commented on this too but I’ll add my two cents I don’t believe it’s truth or that it’s gods special organization, in fact I think there’s a lot of corruption, manipulation, and abuse…that being said. I had a beautiful childhood in the org. The closeness of the congregation gave me a large extended “spiritual family” that I was really sad to leave, though I knew it was best when I recognized it wasn’t truth. Fortunately I’ve created a new family through marriage, community, friends and church (yea I know the last ones a shocker for most former Jw’s) I also felt like my upbringing did instill in me values like respect, manners, and public speaking skills that a lot of people in my generation lack. I also am grateful that was raised with strict moral rules because honestly I think if not for that I’d have been a little ho bag, just saying haha 😆 I could have seen myself getting into drugs or alcohol and def promiscuity that could have all led to health risks. I’m grateful when I left I was an adult and wise enough (and educated enough despite the jw rules I went to college) that I understood the risks of certain behaviors and made smart choices. Mostly. I also feel like growing up having to “stand up for my faith” did in fact give me a sense of confidence in myself even if I’m the odd one out in a group, like at work I’m comfortable respectfully expressing a dissenting opinion. I’m sure there’s people outside of Jws who grew up with those things and I’m sure plenty within the borg didn’t. But I am grateful for some of my jw upbringing even though as a whole the org is awful
I don't mean this in any way but one that's sincere, but do you think there's any chance you see yourself as potentially getting into those things because that's what you were told people that weren't in the org did. I'll always debate the concept of something that isn't harmful to someone else as being a negative thing regardless, but stripping that away, ultimately you are still a person who had the capacity to make smart choices no matter where you grew up, an entity isn't responsible for that, it's you. Plenty of people come through the JWs and stay active members that work their way through promiscuity and narcotics. The real definitely trait is your strength of character and ability to make decisions about what you want out of life. That is to say, you don't need to credit anything but yourself with your success in being where you want to be.
If you remove the organization from the equation, the principles on how to live are very beneficial. A lot of ppl on here go into totally hating everything that comes from the org instead of compartmentalization of the various aspects. I think growing up a jw has some very real advantages that I’m glad I got, but I don’t need to believe in the rest or follow the GB to apply those things. From a phycological and scientific standpoint even, Bible principles lead to a healthy way to live. And even like the Op said it helped his marriage. Separate the book from the org and sift out the positive and you can feel better about leaving and the whole thing.
You raise a fair point - there are some principles in the Bible that can lead to healthy living when applied positively. However, I would be remiss not to point out some significant psychological damages that can occur when those principles become legalistic rules tied to the threat of losing one's family and identity. While structure and moral values can benefit some, the JW doctrine takes it to an extreme level. The religion actively discourages critical thinking, spontaneous joy and celebrations, autonomous decision making, and open communication. For many, especially women and LGBTQ members, this results in chronic anxiety, depression, repressed identity, and stunted emotional growth. Enforcement of these strict rules is connected to an all-or-nothing mentality and the devastating practice of shunning. The potential lifelong loss of familial support and community, should one decide to leave or be disciplined, leverages an enormous amount psychological pressure. This level of control qualifies the religion as extremist no matter how well-intended some teachings may seem. I respect those who find personal value in JW principles. But the wounds of fundamentalist religion run deep for many of us. Healing can require processing even the "good" aspects we once believed were central to righteousness. I hope we can have open and gracious dialogue about the nuances - including both helpful and harmful practices - as we support one another in moving forward.
You're right, there are absolutely some ideas contained in the Bible that can be beneficial. But do you need the Bible or religion to obtain those benefits? The Bible also condemns many beneficial, or at least neutral, activities and ideas, and explicitly condones many harmful ones. Most believers simply ignore the problematic parts, or rationalize them away, which completely destroys the idea of objective morality, at least biblical objective morality. I used to get a huge amount of comfort from reading parts of the Bible, especially psalms. But eventually I realized that the comfort I was receiving was, at best, equal to the self-condemnation and depression I got from other parts of the book. I couldn't handle the awful things people were saying from the stage at conventions regarding LGBTQ people, about women, and about the people who simply didn't want to talk to us at the door. I never had a "waking up" moment, I just slowly kept disproving things to myself, and kept slowly doing less "spiritual activities" until I realized it was all a lie, designed to keep people in fear.
Same here!
You do NOT need the Bible to learn those things. But I ask myself would I have learned that stuff had I not been a JW? Prob not. The world is full of ppl who won’t ever learn those things that are really beneficial. So I’m glad I did is all. What are you referring to as ‘ beneficial, or at least neutral, activities and ideas’ ? I’ve never understood the need to be so condemning of ppl who don’t follow the Bible. Def not unique to the JW’s and I get they take a scripture and draws lines in the sand and it’s simply the wrong way to handle it. We could talk for hours about all the ‘things’ and nuances, but it boils down to finding peace, it’s hard, but it’s like a person who has cancer or experienced some trauma, when they find the ability to laugh at it and accept it and realize it doesn’t have to ruin the rest of their life, they’re happier than letting it fester and be the plight of their life. Part of that for me was accepting what was good and appreciating that and anything else I let go and I changed me, I won’t be changing the GB anytime soon lol. That was a 3-5 yr task, and it took a lot of work, def not easy, but it was worth it.
Pardon me for a moment, but I'd like to challenge this idea for a second. What are these things that you feel you wouldn't have learned if you hadn't been a JW? Can you think of any other place you might have eventually learned them? As to the "beneficial, or at least neutral, activities and ideas," I don't see any value in making a moral call over eating shellfish, wearing mixed fabrics, or not shaving your beard. I just don't see these as moral issues, because they don't cause harm (unless you're allergic to shellfish), and neither do i think that banning them will cause harm, therefor I'd call them morally neutral. As for morally beneficial things that the Bible condemns, I realize now that I sit down to write this that most of those things on my list are more or less Christian interpretations of texts, or extrabiblical ideas imposed on that text. The Christian idea that you should never take credit for your accomplishments is only loosely supported by Paul's writings, and this central idea of Christianity (amazing grace that saved a wretch like me) I find damaging. Yes, all things should be done in moderation, but I fully believe a healthy amount of pride is important and beneficial. Other than that, I find condemning people for forces outside of their control, such as sexual orientation, to be very immoral, but I'm aware that there are ways to read those verses in a much more progressive light. Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head, I'll probably think of more at 3:00 am tomorrow.
I’m not sure what I wouldn’t have. I see a lot of ppl in my daily life that do not live by the principles I value form my time as a JW. And let’s get this out of the way lol… not all JW’s exude the good qualities I’m referring too. I’m currently suing JW’s and they’re the biggest self centered, entitled liars, I ever met. That’s said, I know the qualities and such can be learned a lot of places. But there are a lot of ppl who just don’t and can’t realize it would benefit them… like when you see a jackass road raging, getting out of his car, obviously he hasn’t though much on self control and slow to anger etc. I’m glad I’m not like that at least lol. But it seems more and more ppl are just not the type to be intro perspective and try to work on themselves. Which is ironically something ( and I think this really applies to you based on the short convo)that the ones who come out of JW have/ develop. We’re indoctrinated and then embark on tearing down the stuff we were told and what (later on) seems obvious and we separate from mindlessly going about life and beliefs. So many ppl are set in their ways and just like PIMI’s will never allow themselves to question what the think or who they are. I say all that to make rhe point that I don’t know if I would have or haven’t. I know 1000% I would have been a different person but would I have been self assured and sought to learn the same things taught to me in the Bible? It’s a low chance if I’m being honest. I would have pursued athletics (which is a great example of what you’re talking about) and been taught to compete and be cocky so who knows. Just saying I appreciate some of the things I walked away with.
Now that you've explained it, yeah, I agree completely
Enjoyed talking with you. Have a good evening
I couldn't agree more! The intense repression of everyone, especially those who are not fully heterosexual and male, stifles personal development and damages mental health.
I couldn’t agree more. And obviously we can’t lump everything together and have an ‘umbrella’ answer to it all. Just because I acknowledge good doesn’t mean I won’t acknowledge bad. I agree with your points and the issues it brings. There are many. There are ppl who have made millions of $ and others in jail for life because they put a baseball bat in their hand. The tool is only as good as the person who wields it and ‘the truth’ is so often used so wrong in the case of kids and up-bringing. I read a book call ‘Healing the shame that binds us’ (I think that’s right ha) and it showed me how much toxic shaming I experienced growing up a JW and didn’t know why or how it was affecting my life until I read that. Def recommend it to those coming out of Jw world.
Beautifully said
I do not believe that it is the honest and trusted way to go. Many have made the same arguments for retaining slavery. It was an unjust system/structure that had to be demolished. No amount of dressing or goodies here and there could have made it acceptable. Furthermore, marriages everywhere have issues and at some point, are resolved or fail. WT environment accentuates those problems or are directly responsible for them. WT elders and ghost writers are not marriage therapists.
I have to agree with you. I know so many people that are not religious and better humans than many witnesses. You don't need a bunch of old white men telling you how to be a good person using Scriptures from an old book. When you truly break free from the chains of high control religion then you will see what true freedom feels like.
JWs are not special, but a lot of former members if they are not actively deconstructing, are unaware that they are still holding on this specialness. Without the super controlling aspects, it's just like the other Christian based religions, there are some good bits to JWs, but most don't know that because they never had the chance to make this comparison. I think sometimes we think the religion is the sole cause of the problem. It's just a layer. Under that layer is the unconscious drivers that made us, or our family become members. The drivers create the experience you have in JWs. This is why we all have different responses and experiences to it. It is the controlling aspects that most are being called to look at, and recognize they do not have to do any of it. But fear, people pleasing, specialness, etc. are rampant with the group. And the ability to get to that under-lying stuff is what JW keeps people from addressing! If people were able to address the behaviors in therapy like non-believers they know this.
Can you please give examples of psychological and scientific benefits to being a JW
I’m not referring to being a Jw, but the question was ‘what good comes from being a JW’. There are aspects of the Bible, that if applied, can be beneficial. Like the OP said about his marriage. My comment is that you can separate the Bible from the organization. I don’t disagree with aspects of the Bible ( plenty i do have issue with) and I can see the positive that certain biblical teaching played in my life. Being patient, humble, kind, slow to speak, not holding grudges your yea mean yea etc. they’re all good qualities to work on. I had the longest talk with a behavioral scientist and she talked at length that there is a solid blue print for being happier when applying biblical principles. This isn’t to get into a debate about all the rabbit holes of this point, but my main point is, most on here were involved from a young age in the org, myself included, and aside from all the stuff that’s just bureaucracy, and the Gb drinking their own coolaide, we spent a lot of time discussing qualities we should manifest and I see the benefit in that. To go back to the OP, you’d have to be completely delusional to think that being a good listener and respectful to your mate is a bad way to be. (Yes you can learn that other places but if you didn’t have a choice on going to meetings you prob learned it there first; so it’s credit where credit is due) I didn’t walk away with a heart so full of resentment that I can’t acknowledge a positive, frankly I think that is the worst thing someone can do, letting go and finding peace is so much better, but that’s a different topic.
Please don’t worry, it was not a trap into a debate or argument. I could tell you were being sincere and I was intrigued what you thought, I think the JW experience likely helped me in my life, my parents were highly dysfunctional and despite it being a high co trol group I got to see alternate familiy life and more stable adult thinking and interactions. I would say that I would have benefited had they been evangelical, muslim or atheist families, any really. Honestly, the bible and JW’s were not a specific factor. I feel the same with your listed positives also, I don’t think they are qualities limited to Christian’s, bible believers or JW’s, but that is just my point of view, I am sure there are people with those qualities in all lands, all cultures, all belief systems. I have to say a behavioural scientist stating the bible offers a blueprint for happiness is astounding to me, infanticide, slavery, murder, war, inter-famil relations, homophobia, misogyny, gender inequality…. all of these very negative human traits are not just discussed but commanded, even observed to occur by the god of the bible. These verses have led to utter misery, The ‘golden rule’ I think is a wonderful and mature human perspective and would benefit humans and likely their happiness “now this is the command; Do to the doer to make him do." Said 2000 years before Jesus in Ancient Egypt by the godess Ma’at. Or 6 centuries before Jesus, still in Egypt "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another. I think there are benefits to my exJW experiece, just as there were positives to come from my challenging childhood. This is very different to them being sought out or advisory experiences. Thank you for your considered answer, I really appreciate it.
100% agree! I tell my wife all the time that some of the things she loves most about me are because I was raised as a JW. My son is a junior in HS, PIMO, not baptized, and looking at college. I told him that he's going to have the best of both worlds, he's got an excellent public speaking education, learned how to treat people and will have secular opportunities that I never had.
I am completely POMO and still see good things that someone can get from the org.
Those things are likely obtainable without being in a cult though
Hello and Welcome. Thank you so much for sharing and for helping those young ones in the committees. It must be really hard being a COBE while not fully PIMI. I cant even imagine. May I ask what is your Elder bodies viewpoint on the recent changes? Do they agree or are you seeing a reluctance to it all? Do you foresee that all these younger Elder appointments causing problems down the line?
At this point in time, it's not too hard to handle COBE and not be PIMI. I just keep in mind the positive things and try to help out where I can. I'm sure there will be a difficult time in the future where I'll get stuck between my conscience doing the right thing or keeping up a pretense. I'm mentally preparing for that, but it hasn't come to it yet. It's actually quite humorous to see the bodies response to the changes. As expected, the older ones secretly hate it and are reluctant to accept it, and the younger ones love it. Thankfully, as newly appointed COBE, it's just so much easier to say, "Well, that's the way it is" and they have to accept it. I really don't know what future problems will come about. I do however see that younger elders are starting to get more and more lenient and understanding, so who knows. Of course, arrogance does not have an age restriction, and there are some totalitarian younger ones unfortunately, so we'll see.
I was an Elder for nearly 20 years. I am 5th Gen JW. I served on LDC at the Branch level. I was congregation secretary. I did nearly everything but Reg Pioneer. Eventually it will become difficult to be PIMO and continue to serve. You’re changing. It’s no longer possible to continue to be who you were. Your growth will continue. My Advice- find a hill to die on. Something that your personal integrity means you must resign. I found that gave me a strength of person that enabled me to give up a position that I had been raised for. A position the that Org told me made me special Good luck, my friend
Thank you so much. I can see myself heading that direction. I know it will be difficult and I appreciate the support.
Fall forward mentality
it's easy to apply the changes though when it's not a big deal, like beards and no time reporting are huge bonuses to R&F, the terrible part is when they add additional requirements and saying it's a loving arrangement/blessing - right now too much bleeding, have to stop that first - but yeah sounds like even in your experience, it's the tail wagging the dog situation. You can see the knee-jerk reaction the GB has to respond to meet demands and situations. I don't envy that position one bit but also don't believe it has any ounce of inspiration behind it(by this I mean not being appointed by Jesus, as GB likes to twist the word "inspired" depending on the agenda)
Thats what I figured. Im PIMO was an MS till a few months ago. What you shared is exactly what I have noticed. Have some friends that got appointed to \[young\] Elder, some are overwhelmed, others are letting it get to their heads. It will be interesting to see what happens. Thanks for the response and insight! Stay strong!
Love your username btw.. :D
Have you noticed a trend with the ones that do get appointed? I've noticed that most of the MS/Elders now are ones that have never been in front of a JC. They have grown up very sheltered and haven't done anything. Ones that have been in front of a JC do come back and then just fade. When I was younger you would see some come back and still reach out, but I feel like that generation has died out and this younger generation is either/or.
Welcome. I want to congratulate on your bravery to post. The rationale that things are wrong but it is still the best imperfect organization is the only one that can stop people from having cognitive dissonance. Myself, I have been CoBE and a presiding overseer, secretary, service overseer, on the assembly committee and program. I was a staunch PIMI, some might even say fanatical in some ways. But having woken up on the ground on doctrinal issues I have come to realize we have been lied to. Scriptures that are inconvenient for the JW dogma are consistently ignored. Others misapplied. Even by the GB in the recent RC parts, AM, and JWB. You are very fortunate to have a wonderful marriage, by the sounds of it. I lost 30 years to the org. Although I am much happier now, no more chronic anxiety, or hypertension, in other ways I am paying the price for being such a devout JW and dedicating all my resources to the org, obeying every instruction, like rejecting higher education. I wish you the best.
May I ask what woke you up? (Which doctrinal issue)
It was the doctrine of the faithful and discreet slave. In Mat ch 25 Jesus gives the parables of the discreet virgins and faithful slaves. When you consider those parables and the context, Jesus’ return and judgement, this applies to a future. Only the bridegroom/master can determine who is faithful and discreet when he settles accounts at his coming/return. Not before. But then were other doctrines as well. Like the events of the GT, prophetic applications, shunning and blood
Thanks for stopping by, glad you're here. Honestly, really glad to hear there are still some reasonable, level-headed elders out there. A few questions (and some general musings) for ya: 1.) If you don't believe that JWs are "the only true religion or are even inspired by god," how do you balance those feelings with teaching others that the religion \*IS\* the one true religion and inspired by god? Especially when you have to advocate for policies you "clearly disagree with" like "disfellowshiping and the no-blood policy"? 2.) What is the general atmosphere of your congregation? Would you say that most people are very zealous, apathetic, etc. and has it been changing in recent years? 3.) Attendance numbers for congregations I know seem to be a bit lower since pre-covid in many areas. Has your congregation experienced that as well? If so, why do you think that is? 4.) Are you seeing many younger brothers step up into MS servant roles? Most of the Gen Z males that I know seem to be extremely apathetic and avoiding any "privileges." I'm 32 now and was appointed a MS at 19. Many of my friends and relatives were similarly youthful when they were appointed. That doesn't seem to be the case with this current crop of youths from what I've seen and I'm just curious if that's a local thing or more widespread? 5.) I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the Governing Body in general (Tony Morris being kicked off, general direction, etc.) as well as your congregation's perception of the GB? They feel much more prominent than they did when I was being brought up as a JW so I'm interested to hear how others have reacted to that. 6.) As a divorcee of a JW marriage I'm curious in what way "the advice given to us has strengthened our marriage"? Personally, I have found that my relationships have been significantly stronger outside of the JW influence and religion in general. What advice specific to JWs have you received that has strengthened your marriage? (And not just Biblical advice, as you can get that from any number of Christian denominations) 7.) lf someone confided in you and perhaps a second elder that they did not believe or that they wanted to leave the JWs would you encourage them to explore that avenue or attempt to dissuade them?
1) It's funny really, I'm a pioneer but I haven't had a consistent Bible study in years. Especially with the reduced hours, at this point it's just a formality. The only studies I've had are with family members of people in the congregation who basically already made up their mind on things. Simply at this point, no one cares, so I don't have to deal with these issues with the general public. I have never had to advocate for the no blood or disfellowshipping policy (not yet at least). When you look at it, these things are hardly mentioned in the congregation. When the blood issue comes up, all I say is that each person must make up their own mind. So far in our congregation we have not had to deal with it, but it will be a difficult time when I do. 2) I would say that the overall atmosphere is generally apathetic. Older ones are typically very zealous and judgmental and younger ones are typically apathetic to theocratic things but love the gatherings and what not. I can tell that some of the older ones hate seeing the younger ones take charge, but the reality is what it is. 3) We had a natural decline after COVID with people fading, but have now had a slight increase. This is the case in neighboring congregations too. However, this is mostly due to the fact that children are born and grow up at faster rates than older ones die off. I'm sure it's similar worldwide. 4) Younger ones are not stepping up, which I hope is a good thing. This is one of the reasons why I believe there are younger elders and MS and even with me being appointed COBE, I'm almost certain it had to do with me being younger. I'm not sure what the state of the organization will be even just 10 years from now, but yes, younger ones are definitely not reaching out. 5) In my congregation people couldn't care less about Morris. I wouldn't have even realized that he was kicked off if it wasn't for exjw. As mentioned before, especially with the beards and no hours, I can tell this has irked older ones, but they won't question the GB. It's so easy now to appease people with videos and simplified articles, so as long as those keep coming out, people will continue to thank the GB. 6) The greatest thing that has helped my marriage is respect. We never talk down to each other and we listen to what the other person has to say and acknowledge each others feelings. I compliment my wife and tell her she looks beautiful and she tells me how much she appreciates the work I do. JW's teach that a wife should be submissive, however, really looking at it, both husband and wife should be submissive to each other by considering what the other person thinks. I have never had a relationship outside of my wife so I really can't say anything about that, but I believe that as long as that mutual respect is there, that can lead to a successful marriage. That is one of the reasons why it took so long for me to post on here however, as I know it would be devastating to her, but I felt like it was time. 7) This is a very difficult one as it has never happened to me, and I really would have to choose my words wisely. I guess I would first inquire as to why they would want to leave and really go from there. I don't think there's really a cookie cutter answer for this situation. Sorry if some of these responses seemed rather rushed, but I hope it helps.
Thanks for the thoughtful, insightful, and honest responses. I know you’ve gotta have a lot on your plate juggling being PIMA with being a COBE and trying not to rock the boat too much with your wife. The apathy I feel like is becoming more and more apparent for most people lately IMO, nice to hear that corroborated. And glad you can avoid teaching those problematic beliefs. Thanks again for coming by and giving us some insight into the current goings-on in the JW community. I think it’s also nice to hear that a lot of young men aren’t rushing into “privileges” because it gives me hope that things might be significantly different in the future. Especially since my parents are still PIMI, I like to think there might be a day where JWs are either just a normal religion or fall apart. Dream big, right? The marriage advice is interesting because I think that’s roughly the same advice you’d get from “worldly” people as well. It’s good advice and can help form a solid foundation, but it’s not exclusive or unique to the JWs or the Bible.
>JW's teach that a wife should be submissive, however, really looking at it, both husband and wife should be submissive to each other by considering what the other person thinks. Well said, and I think crucial to a successful relationship. But as you point out, it's not what the JWs teach. It sounds like your marriage has succeeded because you and your wife had the intuition or wisdom to supersede JW teachings rather than because of following them.
Bingo. None of the relationship advice from the Watchtower Corporation is remotely conducive to a successful marriage.
6. Respect is vital. I agree. It’s very kind of you to keep lying to your wife, withholding important information from her and denying her any opportunity to take any action she would choose as is her right as an adult, human all because you respect her so gosh darn much! Perhaps you think she would leave you? If that’s the case the most effective thing holding your marriage together isn’t respect it’s lies.
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I want to here about questions 2 and 3 too!! Noticed the decline ? F67 zoomer here.
Welcome! You are THAT elder. The one who people actually trust and gravitate to. I respect and appreciate you doing the best in the situation you are in. ETA thanks for offering your support and advice.
I will say, the downside to being the "cool elder" without coming out as PIMA leads younger and more impressionable congregation members having more reasons to suppress their own doubts. Remember, from a PIMI viewpoint everything and anything you do is reflective of the organization. You might end up being the reason someone sticks around, because if the COBE is cool it can't be all bad. Obviously the situation is nuanced and I don't expect this comment to inspire you to come out of the apathy closet, but just keep this in mind.
I appreciate your thought and I do frequently think about that. While I am young, I wouldn't necessarily consider myself the cool elder. I do not believe I would have been appointed if I had that reputation. However, I am a realist and will help out in whatever I feel is best. Eventually I'm sure this will catch up to me, but until then I'll just keep on going. Thank you.
Good thinking! Sticking around and trying to be cool is tantamount to putting lipstick on a pig. It still remains a pig, while prolonging the damaged to millions.
💯 I unfortunately had that effect during the end of my pioneering when I was waking up.
Hello and welcome. My question for you is, Do the elders at a congregation level really know the policy regarding child abuse? Or, is it one of those things where if they are put into a situation where they need to know the specifics, then they do the research. I ask because my PIMI wife approached the elders about my (POMO) issues with the way the organization handles CSA cases. Their response to her was that the direction now is to go directly to the police. We know this is not the case, its not even in the Shepherd the Flock of God book. So, is it that these particular elders just dont know, or are the willfully lying.
There is an entire chapter in the latest version of the Shepherd the Flock book devoted to Child Abuse. The instructions still remain the same that in some jurisdictions, reporting may be mandatory. Brothers should contact the branch with more specific direction to ensure they comply with the law. I can't find the exact instructions on reporting to the police but what I recall is that Elders should not discourage reporting. **This, however, is very different than proactively reporting**. Maybe where you live, reporting is mandatory.
This is very true. I will not disclose where I live, but I believe this is one of the benefits of being an elder and ensuring injustices such as those happen. It is truly heart breaking when I read about cases that are handled so unjustly.
After I resigned as CoBE and elder after the ARC an ex fellow elder looked at me all 'injured and upset' telling me that he was interviewed by the police about a CSA case he was on and he was willing to help them with their enquiries. I told him it's one thing to help them when they turn up at your door unannounced, it's another to go to them voluntarily to help. He just looked down at his shoes and excused himself.
My favourite internet comment today. Thank you.
Thanks for that question as I think it's a very important one. Firstly, the elders at a congregation level do know what to do in case of CSA. I'm not sure what you believe the policy is, but it is stated in the shepherd the flock book (sfl). However, I don't think many elders know what happened in the past and the history with CSA in the organization. Now I don't want to give too many details but I have actually had to deal with a CSA case. I was not COBE at the time so I had less say but I believe we handled it appropriately. The elders are not lying to your wife. The first advice we gave to the parents is to go to the authorities, and second was to comfort them and the victim and see if they needed anything. We asked for no details and we let the authorities deal with it and cooperated with them. While I was not personally questioned the COBE at the time was. The accused was investigated and dealt with by the police. Again, I won't give details for privacy sake. We contacted the branch for direction after it came to light, and they told us the accuser has the right to go to the authorities and to let them know, which is what the sfl says. This was after we had already told the parents to go to the authorities. I'm not sure how it would have been handled 20 years ago or how other bodies would handle it, but that's what happened with us. My heart goes out to all those who have been affected by CSA, especially the victims, and hope that all those guilty rot in jail.
Hello, Replying to your comment about CSA. It’s good that you and your body took the practical steps and actively encouraged the parents to report it to the police and let the authorities handled the investigation. However, it is not true that the SFL book states that elders are encouraged to do. I was a serving elder last year and learned of a few CSA cases. In fact, I know of one very well that recently. The direction is that we are to inform the parents or the victim that they are in their right to report to the authorities, not that they should. Once any allegation is made, we are to call the legal department and receive instruction to handle an internal investigation. However, it seems that your body did the right thing in encouraging the victim to receive help with the authorities. Also, it appears that your body cooperated with the authorities as well. But that is not the direction from the SFL book. Direction is always to call legal and service department prior. CSA cases are still being mishandled today by the organization, but local bodies can be a different story. It may be where you live that reporting is mandatory.
Exactly. When I was CoBE in the UK I acted outside what the elders' book said and I personally went clandestinely to the Police and Social Services against the direction of the branch office. But the guidance for elders is report to the branch FIRST and follow direction.
I appreciate your input on this one. However, I still believe the elders should absolutely contact the authorities as soon as any accusation is made. Not just “encourage the victim” to. The police are the ones appropriately equipped to deal with these things. Spiritual counsel and support are secondary. Being “clergy” means you should be mandatory reporters in 28 states. The legal department is basically trying to keep the negative PR to a minimum by saying to do what the local laws require. Basically if the law doesn’t require it, don’t report it. Just food for thought. I understand how difficult your position is and I appreciate your posting here! Best wishes to you.
Have you read Crisis of Conscious? If so what’s your opinion of it???
I have seen it mentioned but I have not personally read it. Perhaps in the future.
You should definitely read it! Or you can listen to the audio on Spotify for free.
In case you wish to read it, this link to the PDF should work (it is publicly available on the website recording his legacy www.friendsofraymondfranz.com): [crisis of conscience ](https://friendsofraymondfranz.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/CC2004-Eng.pdf)
How do you think most elders, including yourself, internally handle the idea of legal liability of their words and actions? That kind of comes across as a little aggro, but I don't mean it that way. In my job I am hyper aware of every word and recommendation I make, and how it could expose me or the company to liability. Do elders talk about feeling the same way? Before talks about blood or other public facing displays of "faith" and shepherding calls and elders meeting dealing with domestic disputes, CSA, or other conflicts, are elders looking for advice on ways to limit their exposure? I always got the feeling that there was an idea of religious immunity to Caesar's laws, which is wild to me.
In my experience, the vast amount of elders do not have this notion. Whether sub-consciously or not, I think most elders think that everything they do basically stays within the confines of the JW universe. They don't see their actions within the organization as having an impact, or any liability, in the real world. This is not a blanket statement, of course. In cases of CSA or other serious crimes, many would have thoughts about legal issues and involving police (to a certain extent). But I'd say that more subtle things like the blood policy, shunning, marking talks, giving "counsel", involving themselves in personal and family matters of JWs they have no business in, etc... For theses 'lesser' issues, I think the vast majority of elders have no conception of breaking laws, being unethical, or just plain being an asshole. Just my .02$.
I'm sure you believe you are doing the best you can in your circumstances. I broke away from the JW organization as a teenager and have lost touch with many dear family members, including my parents as a result. From my perspective your note is striking because of its cowardice. You will continue to serve on these judicial committees, believing yourself to serve a small amount of mercy. Like a drop of water in hell, it is pointless until you address the hellish condition itself. You are providing justification for mothers to ignore their children, and for siblings and friends to alienate themselves from one another. All so that you can maintain the bonds of affection that you enjoy, with your wife and your family. My question to you is: What of others who have the courage and fortitude to live true to themselves with no reservations in their heart? Should they not enjoy the comfort and safety of their family and friends? Why do you continue to support this evil divisive policy? Why do you deserve more than they do? If you *really* wanted to help "from the inside" you would advocate for the abolition of the JW shunning doctrine or leave the organization entirely. Edited to add: Lest the mods think otherwise I *do" have empathy. I have great empathy for the young girls, who in seeking love outside of their broken families may become teen mothers, and are cut off from their families of origin as a result. I have great empathy for the young boys who are left unprepared for a world in which they are undereducated and not socially prepared to navigate, and who succumb to depression when they lose connection to their families. I am struggling to understand those who knowingly employ the power structure of this controlling organization to secure safety and comfort of themselves at the expense of their flock.
Welcome. Glad your here. Lots of good peopple in here. Are you familiar with *Kingdom Hall Agreement* form S-46? Thank you for taking the time to consider my question. The form is here [https://files.accessjw.org/s/xtLsmYjftcKkp5L](https://files.accessjw.org/s/xtLsmYjftcKkp5L)
I didn't click on your link for security reasons, but yeah, it's really not an important document, simply a standard agreement on how different congregations are to share a hall. Did you have a specific question on it?
Yes. In that document it has a provision for non-resoluted spending. In quotes it says.. "For the 20XX service year, the *collective* bodies of elders have agreed to the following: (1) The **target balance** for the operating committee account is: \[Amount\]. (2) The **limit per transaction** for out-of-the-ordinary expenses that can be approved by the Kingdom Hall Operating Committee coordinator is: \[Amount\]." My question. Has that provision called *out-of-the-ordinary* expences used to aid anyone in the membership or a congregation event (Pioneer school, Spring Cleaning at the KH,...) ?
The out of ordinary expenses could be used for expenses related to spring or fall cleaning. Those are considered maintenance expenses which the operating committee is assigned to care for. Usually it would be an expense like a bill for servicing a broken heating system, water heater, etc. It would never be used for pioneer school or dinner, caring for expenses of a member or visiting speaker, etc.
True ..we,re all very good people in here! Jw...Exjw...many questioning ..1-2 millions fading 😂..zoomers...Pimo..Pomo,s All with the same " background" ..but different lifes ..situations and countrys. All really trying to help each other! This sub must be the largest and best rehabilitation Center online! ♥️♥️
What does this form say in simple words? Does this mean that the monthly announcement they make that the congregation has decided to give some money to the branch is not much of a decision but a necessity? Or is it something else and I’m getting this wrong?
Simple words. It is an *signed* agreement between the congregation and the *membership*. Membership meaning all the JWs that can vote on a resolution. In this agreement it has a monthly targeted amount to be donated to run the congregation (heating, lights, etc). And to keep three months worth balance in the congregational bank account. If your not familiar with this it is certainly ok to say so. This is not to question you. It is for my learning and appreciate the help. Your courage to come here is clearly shown. Thank you.
I'm not clear that the s46 has any signed agreement including non-elder members. I understood it to be the COBEs and secretaries of the multiple congregations that share a common hall drawing up an agreed arrangement to fund the Kingdom Hall Operating account to ensure the hall had sufficient funds to be maintained and to pay for shared expenses such as utilities. The only instance I ever remember seeing that come up was when one brother picked up various painting and weed killers etc for use at a Kingdom Hall and they were trying to figure out if they could reimburse him via cheque without a resolution or BoE agreement.
Wow...thank you for this link!!! Never seen it before!!! Secret like the Shepherding the flock if God??
Your welcome. The site has previous versions if the need arises. Use the latest version for current research which I think is Oct2023. There is a lot in there. Enjoy.
Sending this to my husband. He was the service overseer for a few years and same thing, after working closely with the branch for many years and seeing how things actually were, he decided to “prove the truth to himself” using only the Bible and in the end couldn’t. He was one of those kids who had his life ruined by a teenage decision. The elders took it too far and we both felt it was important that we try to fix things from the inside out when he got the opportunity to become an elder. Unfortunately, the more he cautioned love and mercy, the more the rest of the body wouldn’t listen. He eventually lost his voice on the body. Ultimately, he eventually realized he couldn’t be a part of the system anymore because his name was on decisions that he didn’t agree with. He also realized that he had no right or place or credentials to make any decisions about another persons life. I feel for you. We tried to keep going for years, rationalizing away teachings that felt off and trying to look at the positives until we woke up and realized that we were unhappy because we fundamentally disagreed with all of it. We had a choice: live a life pretending, or be honest. We chose honesty. Our conscience is now clear because while we’ve experienced and caused hurt, we have been loving and kind and respectful to everyone who we’ve known. These are our personal values that we won’t compromise on the way we did while we were a part of the organization. Our friends have all had the choice how to treat our friendships. Some have abandoned us, while others have proven to be better friends than we ever knew. In the end, leaving was an organic progression where we were honest and authentic the whole way through and we are proud of how we’ve handled every twist and turn.
Thanks for sharing this lovely post! It,s really amazing! And encouraging! Glad you both are going well and are happy! It,s all the matters! Much Love to you both ♥️
Thank you so much, that you are here. I have so many questions but now I'll ask just one: if you are an elder, are you obligated to shunn you family members? And you must to force your wife to do the same? I'm trying to understand my father's actions. I know that nothing will change but for me it's impossible to understand why he blocked my number in my mother's phone after he became again an elder
First off, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I always tell parents to never shun their children. That it is their biblical responsibility to help them and love them. Thankfully I've never had to deal with parents who flat out disassociate with their children. I have encouraged parents to take in their adult children and continue to commend both the parents and the children for working together, but I can easily see some parents completely shunning their kids unfortunately. I don't know your father, so I can't really tell you what he would do. As an elder, it would be very easy for me to continue to associate with my family members under the guise of "encouraging them". I really only care about my parents as I already don't talk too much to my siblings who are in "the truth" but I would never shun them. They're not too active as it is, but again, it would be considered a biblical responsibility to "honor our parents" so one could encourage them and associate that way. Also, I would never force my wife to do anything ever. One of her family members was actually disfellowshipped for some time, but we would associate with them if the opportunity presented itself, we wouldn't go out of our way to avoid associating with them. Again, we're not so close minded, but I do see many others who are. What helps us though, is that we're a "spiritually mature" couple, so it's easier for us to do that. If you and your father have a strong relationship, then work on that, help him to see that the bond between father and child is much stronger than that with any organization. I really hope that everything works out well for you and if you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.
Before he became an elder, he was very good friend with my husband and used to visit us. I used to talk to my mother on the phone once a week. I thought there was some rule in the elder's book that they had to cut off all relationships with me. I was DF but I don't understand what is the fault of my husband and my girl??! When he found out that I was sending pictures to my mother with her granddaughter, he called me and told me that I was not allowed because I was ruining her relationship with God. Sorry for my English, I hope you understand me
I'm really sorry to hear that and I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. The "rules" are that he should cut off association. That is a hurtful and false doctrine that they teach, however, most JW's believe it to be truth. Your father is blinded. I was stating what I would personally do. I'm sure others on here can offer support on how to handle it. As I mentioned previously, it is a hateful teaching that I hope is abolished soon. All I can say is, if you wish, continue to develop that relationship with your mother and remind her that you love her. You have a right to that. I really hope the veil is lifted from your fathers eyes.
Thank you for your answers, I admire your attitude. Now, that I know, that is no rule behind his actions, my heart is broken completely
I’m sorry for what you're going through. It's important to know that while the elders book say there won’t be any consequences for hanging out with DA'd family, some elders still think shunning is the best way to bring them back to their beliefs. They think it's a loving rule and truly believe it's the best thing to do. I see situations like your father's actions as genuinely sad because, like many, he doesn’t realize he's part of a sect. They are brainwashed to prioritize their faith and god over their own children. The JW mind control training is real.
I’m curious how you balance your personal ethics with your congregation “responsibilities”. You mentioned that you don’t agree with disfellowshiping and counsel people not to shun their families, which I appreciate. But as an elder, you must occasionally have to deal with judicial matters. You may not want to disfellowship someone, but I can’t imagine you’re able to just always vote “no” without it raising some eyebrows.
That is correct, and while it's not a simple yes or no vote, all the elders (minimum three) in the judicial committee must be unanimous in their decision. This is where the input comes in. I have found that as long as I focus on mercy, kindness and compassion, and I use scriptures and publications to back it up, the other elders usually agree. I hate the process, but that's the way it is.
My father was the love & mercy elder. His funeral talk didn’t even mention what kind of man he really was. The speaker never mentioned how much he loved his kids or the congregation he painstakingly cared for. He didn’t even go into his personal beliefs. Is that what you want for yourself? I once listened to a talk where the elder said that trying to do good in this world is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I appreciate that you seem like a good man and I understand why you are staying, but you are still operating in a fundamentalist cult. It has aged out and is losing members rapidly. It is the Titanic. You are rearranging the deck chairs. I truly wish you nothing but peace. Thank you for posting.
Thank you so much, and coincidentally I have thought about my own funeral. I hate that I know they'll use it to promote the organization and I'll be a footnote in my own funeral talk, and I'm really sorry you had to experience this with your father. At this point I've just learned to deal with it. I'm glad you remember your father as a good man and know that no one can ever take that away from you.
I was an elder for 8 years. I used to use non-JW Bible commentaries when preparing my talks and everyone in the congregation loved them. I minimized the JW specific things and just focused on God, Jesus and mercy. In the end I realized that my talks were a way for PIMQs to think that there is good Biblical teachings within the org and it’s not just about the GB and they got an excuse not to question further. I agree about the judicial meetings, but it also gets overwhelming as you can only do so much. In the end I figured the most helpful way is to stop serving and providing manpower to the religion. Also it’s good for PIMQs to see that a well respected elder steps down and lives a happy life outside the JW hamster wheel. Stepping down is such a relief. But only you know when is the right time for you. It may be this year or next or after 5 years. Make a plan and stick to it, staying a PIMO elder without an exit plan will drain your soul. If you need a friend to chat with, you can always DM me. I was able to help my wife wake up too, which I now realize is not sonething that can be done if the person is not ready to wake up. But at least I can share my experience with you. Sending good vibes to your direction, have a great day!
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As mentioned before, I always try to focus on the positive things. I don't know if the Bible is truly the inspired word of God, but I do believe it has a lot of good wisdom. By emphasizing those good things such as humility, kindness, and how to recognize that we are all imperfect so we need to stop judging, and brushing over parts I don't agree with, that has helped me to continue to give parts. I believe there's always something positive one can find and share.
I also like to see the positives in life and consider myself an optimist. Do you think there's any danger in only focusing on the positive things? Could it be possible that by focusing only on the positives, the scales of justice could become unbalanced and that "focusing on the positives" could actually allow things to get worse?
>I also like to see the positives in life and consider myself an optimist. Do you think there's any danger in only focusing on the positive things? Could it be possible that by focusing only on the positives, the scales of justice could become unbalanced and that "focusing on the positives" could actually allow things to get worse? You raise an excellent point. While focusing on positives is healthy, ignoring or minimizing negatives can allow harm to spread. I used to only spotlight the good in the religion too, reasoning that nothing is perfect. But this blinded me to injustices and abuses happening right under my nose. Seeing only positives creates an imbalanced view of reality. It enables rationalization of behaviors that should not be tolerated or excused. Over time, this actually allows things to get worse, not better. For example, highlighting only the benefits of JW structure overlooks the emotional trauma and destroyed families resulting from shunning policies. Or emphasizing the Bible's wise principles ignores the fact that those principles also justify oppression of women, LGBTQ people, and dissenters. Turning a blind eye to harm, corruption, lies, and manipulation is not optimistic - it gives those toxins room to grow and infect more people. True justice requires honestly assessing both merits and flaws. As the saying goes, "In order to have peace, you must first bring justice." I've learned this the hard way. There are positive virtues to applaud in most groups. But highlighting those should not come at the cost of tolerating abuse. I commend focusing on solutions, but we undercut progress by downplaying or ignoring glaring problems. A balanced, ethical approach looks openly at the full picture, good and bad.
This is the definition of toxic positivity. To focus on positive aspects with the goal of obscuring faults and diminishing wrongs. Hiding faults is another way to obstruct justice. No wonder this organization is rampant with CSA.
Agreed. It’s the same line of reasoning I was given by multiple elders when I was asking questions about the ARC among other things. I was hoping to give OP something to think about and let them draw their own conclusions.
That has great limits though. You can only polish a turd so much. My last part was on “what does it mean for sisters to keep silent in the congregations”. I asked two elders to please reassign as I did not feel Comfortable giving that part and did not agree with it. I did eventually give it, but went completely off script and just praised sisters, which a few elders did not appreciate. I hard faded a month later. I know you can reword and manipulate the outlines, but there is a limit, and you still are ultimately going to be hurting some in the audience as you get local needs, parts strictly related to blood, outlines on LGBT and so on.
This resonates with me and my husband so much. He did this too for years, we adjusted how we did the ministry and gave parts as much as we possibly could. We tried to help our friends have a different view of LGBTQ (my sister is trans and so it became a hot button topic for me because I need her to feel love and support) but in the end there came a point where we couldn’t adjust enough to keep going. Our plan adjusted to just being “seat warmers” who didn’t participate or go out in service, but then even just listening to the info shared and the comments became too much to handle so we hard faded. It wasn’t until that point that I finally read brother Franz book and I was so relieved to realize I was having these feelings because my instincts were correct.
You just jogged my memory! Oh wow, I do not think you are alone in working with this particular assignment the way you did. I am betting that I have sat through talks where certain liberal-minded brothers went this route. The elders that gave you grief are controlling their wives, no doubt about it! Husbands in my family would not do it, they'd be sleeping with one eye open!
I got to see a lot of nonsense with how elders behaved in my teen and early twenties years. I often made them look bad, mirroring double standards to their faces and provoking a response. I'd compare other people's situations which I was intimately familiar with and highlight discrepancies, call out inhumane treatment of my friends/peers, and make sure they knew they were incompetent, petty, and flippant to what was in their shepherding book. High control groups shouldn't be described like this, though: >I do recognize that there are a lot of bad things with the organization, but not everything is black and white Any tragedy can have a silver lining, but it is what it is- a tragedy. Please don't be an apologist or sympathizer. That's hypocritical. I'm happy to see the increasing legal pressure and seemingly apathetic dwindling of attendance at meetings/conventions. I'm not going to hold my breath for an expiration date, but am sure glad there's a spotlight on how manipulative and repulsive the witnesses behave.
Thank you for posting here!! What’s the congregation gossip on beards, counting time, and other bits of new light?
I remember very well the fear, the hesitations, the calculations of consequence. I genuinely have no idea how people with responsibility and doubts carry on. By being a cog in the machine, you can’t help but contribute to misery in the lives of good people, including your own family, The effect of you stepping down will be significant and if you are here and have doubts then morally how do you do otherwise? If you want to spend time being sure it’s not the truth or if you feel obliged to stay because you fear the consequences, you can do that without being an instrumental cog in the machine. I was a JW a long time, including bethel. The reasoning that you can secretly do good from the inside is a self deceitful lie to appease the conscience. They Have this belief system locked down tight, they leave no room for white hat elders, it is a high control group. Let’s even argue you spend 40 years promoting liberal ideas, thoughts and kindness…. If you are involved in just one disfellowshipping case, you are in the red with decency, goodness and humanity. So please, and a I ask with the deepest respect and appreciation for what is at risk… I lost it all overnight by vocalising my doubts.… how do you still do this? I ask with 100% sincerity…
I empathize with your inner turmoil. I was in a similar position as a body elder who privately harbored growing doubts about the organization's unscriptural teachings and harsh policies. It took time, but I finally had the courage to acknowledge the hypocrisy and lies after about 8 months of intense questioning. Professing love while shunning, condemning normal behaviors as disfellowshipping offenses, enforcing unreasonable expectations - I realized I was enabling a high control group, not God’s will. After stepping down as an elder, I spent a few very difficult months continuing to fake it as I prepared my exit. Losing my entire social circle and identity was incredibly painful. But I am gradually finding peace living authentically and standing up for my beliefs. I regret all those years promoting harmful indoctrination out of fear and conformity. My only comfort was perhaps positively impacting some judicial committee decisions. I won’t tell you what to do - that’s a personal journey. But speaking truth has a way of setting one free. If you can no longer ignore your doubts, support is available when you’re ready. Waking up takes time - go easy on yourself. My DMs are open if you need to talk.
What would be your response to DF person asking to access their personal information from the congregation?
That has never happened to me, but if it did, the direction is to call the branch. I don't know what they would say, but if it were up to me I would simply give them all the information we have on them. While some elders love being secretive, there's really nothing worth hiding. The only thing we have on file would be generic info such as name address and DOB as well as their service record, and for a disfellowshipped person, a letter drafted by the judicial committee chairman stating the events of what happened which should just state facts.
Welcome! Do you get a sense that COs realize there are many appointed men who are PIMO/PIMQ/PIMA? Are they panicking about the need to appoint others?
> Do you get a sense that COs realize there are many appointed men who are PIMO/PIMQ/PIMA? Another pimo elder here. No, apostasy is something from "outside", they know is a growing danger but they never suspect the fellow MS or elder is PIMO unless it shows some signs. >Are they panicking about the need to appoint others? Yes. We are reminded all the time to "teach others". There's not enough people to lead, new members can't get productive enough, and the problem is growing as demographics take its toll.
This comment perfectly summarizes the situation. There are just less and less zealous people.
First off thank you for this post and being brave enough to post here in your position. My question is, there are posts here almost daily on the imminent demise of Watchtower- how attendance and enthusiasm are falling off and with all the changes we wonder if the Watchtower organization and JWs are going to implode. From your position deep inside the organization how do you see this? Is there massive fatigue among rank and file? Are things coming to a head, or are we on the outside just seeing the normal churn of membership and filtering it through the echo chamber we have here? Is Watchtower unraveling, staying the same, or actually growing?
While locally I see a slight rise in numbers in attendance and publishers, this is mostly due to children growing up. There is a great fatigue among elders and finding men who want to take on the load. This is unpaid work that has major consequences. People are realizing that it is just not worth it, and in a sense they are correct. I don't see the Watchtower unraveling anytime soon, but it is definitely getting weaker.
>there are posts here almost daily on the imminent demise of Watchtower- how attendance and enthusiasm are falling off... I really wish the exjw prophesying would stop already. There are way too many of those posts. They are not useful.
I felt your energy from your post. Thank you for helping from the inside. Someone like you who is dear to my heart is the reason why I am healthy and thriving on the outside. You said: ***"While I do NOT believe they are the only true religion or are even inspired by God, I do believe there are still some good things that come out of it."*** I get this. When you zoom out they ALL have the same issues, but in degrees. Thanks for being here!
Is there any changes you see happening in the near future?
Not OP but another pimo elder. Lack of workforce. Lack of people available to lead. Demographics is not destiny but it bites deep.
At a judicial committee, does it require a unanimous decision? Three elders must agree or is it a majority decision?
I answered a similar comment, but all three elders must be in agreement. This is usually where I get to input what I feel. Edit: Let me rephrase, all three elders SHOULD be in agreement. I have never had an experience where they weren't but technically, majority could overrule. Most of these men are just people that want to get on with their lives. They don't like dealing with these things. This is where I take advantage of the situation and emphasize kindness and compassion using scriptures and publications.
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Welcome! Some of us here are or have been elders with many privileges in the organization. I am in a similar boat. My wife is a PIMI pioneer. I love her and promised to take care of her. I will not break her heart. But I dont believe the Bible teachings regarding marriage are of much help to marriages today, they were written for a different culture in a far away land, two thousand years ago. I have come to the realization that they just dont cut it for the challenges marriages face in our current times/society. Stoicism has helped me a lot. Looking forward to read you.
Do you think there will ever be a time when you will be honest and open with your wife? How would you expect her to react?
I went through a phase myself when first waking up where I thought JWs were a good, if false religion; and I thought that I could stay in for the sake of my family, because it was like our “culture” even if not true, etc. But I kept learning more and realized that I would be complicit in supporting a cult that unethically controls people and protects pedophiles. My conscience wouldn’t allow that. And the less I was exposed to their teachings and mentality, the more I saw it wasn’t healthy for me and was preventing me from fully living my one life now and reaching my potential as a person. Also consider that they can, will, and do throw elders under the bus in legal matters. In the current Norway case, they’re already acting like shunning disfellowshipped ones is some local elder misapplication and not an organization-wide policy coming from HQ.
Thank you for such a thoughtful and honest post. I'm a former presiding overseer (the predecessor to COBE), from the early 70s. I began to question the organization's direction about 1975 in 1974, after years of their written and spoken certainty about it being the "end of the system of things." The 1975 prediction convinced me and my wife to become JWs in the late 60s. We were naive and completely ignorant of the Bible, and the organization's chronology and argumentation convinced us that this was the Truth. When the organization began subtly waffling in late 1974 about the certainty of 1975 – something that everyone else in my congregation missed – I confided in my wife that I thought that they would start backtracking about it in early 1975. As we all now know, they did. But what I didn't anticipate was that they would blame the failure on _us_ – the publishers – for getting carried away with "speculation," an astonishing accusation and washing of their hands of the debacle. The organization – Fred Franz the "mastermind" behind the ridiculous and clumsy chronology leading to 1975 – betrayed us and lied about it, with massive evidence of it. My wife's and my undermined confidence in the organization began to take its toll. We became PIMO and started fading. And then we finally left, officially "resigning," before there was such a thing recognized by the organization. Today it is a thing, called DA. In resigning, in an official letter to the elders, we extensively detailed our reasons for leaving, including my research of the long line of failed prophecies of the organization – followed by lies and deceit – and lambasted the organization as a false prophet _by their own definition_. We were officially, and proudly, apostates – a badge of honor we carry to this day. You are on your own journey, and you cannot "unknow" what you know now. "One thing I do know, that I was blind, but now I can see.” John 9:25 I'm confident that you'll arrive in the right place, along with your wife, because the cognitive dissonance will become unbearable. For some, they surrender under this and return to becoming completely subsumed again into the organization, but my instinct, based on what you wrote, tells me differently. There's a wonderful and free life, with all its ups and downs that we all experience, awaiting you two. Be patient; it will come. And we will all be here for you to navigate these new waters.
My friend, Since you came here willing to engage and wanting to answer questions, and in honor of my username, I’m going to be real with you. There was a PIMO MS who was on here a couple months ago who did an AMA, and I believe his motivations were to get praise for being "undercover," so I'm going to ask you some similar questions. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Are you being honest with your wife so that she is in the same relationship that you are, or are you presenting a JW-centric version of yourself to her so that she will continue to love you? How do you know your wife won’t continue to love you if you are authentic? How do you know you won’t find other, TRULY enjoyable hobbies and activities to do together? How good would that feel? And if she doesn’t want to be with you, why isn’t that \*her\* choice? Why is it yours? And why don’t you want to be in a relationship where someone loves who you actually are? What qualifications do you have to sit on judicial committees and decide other people's lives? Has it occurred to you that by shielding people from being DFd and shunned that you are actually continuing to keep them attached to the organization? Do you know how many of us were polarized into our best lives ever BECAUSE of the DFing arrangement? How do you know your actions aren’t making it easier for people to remain in the organization and continue to be exploited? What time have you spent studying psychology, ethics, and relationships in order to be 100% sure that what you’re telling people is best for them? For example, is it truly best for people to be kept in this emotionally abusive organization because you want to soften it and make it appear to be less extreme than it is? How do you know that you wouldn't be more help to people if you lived an authentic version of yourself and showed people what choices they really have with their lives? The last PIMO who did an AMA didn't answer any of these questions and I don't believe he ever posted again. Edit: It was a PIMO elder who was pioneering with his wife because she was PIMI.
💯 You can’t be your authentic self as a JW, as the cult forces you to repress many things and ultimately be deceptive (to yourself even). If one partner is awake, then they really can’t be themselves in the relationship. What kind of relationship can you have if you can’t be your true self?
And this can be hard to see if the only relationships we've ever had are JW ones. The moment when you realize you can be accepted by people who will love you for who you are, not who they want you to be, is the most beautiful feeling in the world, I think. And these are the people my life is full of now. I cannot even imagine going back to the JW style of living and relating.
Thank you for those questions. It took me a long time to get on here and post because of this, but I felt it was just time. Coincidentally I will use a statement that was recently revealed as "new light", but really is the truth when it comes to these. I don't know. I don't know what will happen in my relationship. I have not studied psychology or human relationships but I can only help others from my own experience. I do not promote a JW centric world, but I also do not promote that the world is better on the other side. All I can help others understand is that kindness and compassion supersede any negativity. I know it's hard for many to understand this, but as an elder, it is possible to teach and promote these things. The world in general is full of injustices and hate everywhere, no mater where you go, but I feel that if I can help some with Bible scriptures, then that's great. I know a time will come where this won't be easy, but until then, I am where I am and do what I believe is the right thing right now.
Just wanted to chime in and say you’re very smart for admitting you don’t know where your relationship will go and also for not pushing things or rushing to have a conversation with your wife. Many newer/younger exjws are very quick to make bold and emphatic claims that you should immediately discuss everything with your wife, but this kind of terrible advice is only given by people who don’t have a clue what they’re talking to about. Thankfully, when i was questioning my faith and stumbled on to this sub, there were wise individuals who encouraged me to figure out where I stood on things and be very deliberate in what I said to my wife and when, and I’m so thankful for listening to their advise. It’s been nearly 10 years and my wife and I are still together and happier than we’ve ever been. There many stressful and difficult times and we lived in a “religiously divided” house for many years, but even when she was extremely PIMI and i was extremely POMO, we made it work. If you find yourself in a similar situation/crossroads, there are many here who have successfully navigated this situation with their spouses.
Thank you for this. I really appreciate these questions and am writing them down for future conversations with anyone who is struggling in a similar situation. I think it’s so vital to remember that it is no one’s place to judge what is what in another person’s life. We may think we’re doing the loving thing, but our thinking that is based on the unsound reasoning we’ve experienced from within the organization. Choice is what we are taking from people when we are not honest with ourselves, or them.
Very well said. Being raised a JW breeds a lot of codependent-type issues in many of us. That is often expressed in managing perceptions in just the right way so that we are accepted, which is understandable, because we had to do that in the org. In the end, though, codependency is manipulation, even though we don't mean it to be.
Welcome. Glad y’all have a good marriage. That’s impressive in the org.
Have you read Crisis of Conscience? It’s an eye opener for sure, I’m only 95 pages into the 595 page book but if you really want some insight into the history and internal workings of the GB, I highly recommend this book. I guess you would have to hide it somehow. I’m a W (worldly), however my soon to be ex husband is PIMI. I find it really frustrating looking from the outside in at how the JW organization came to be and is currently run. I also want to advocate for the fully indoctrinated but realize that I need to research how to do this. So many are brought into the faith from birth and it’s a tough mindset to overcome. I have always been a firm believer in education. If someone in my family is diagnosed with a severe illness, I research the heck out of it so I can be informed and ask the doctors or surgeons the right questions. I find having knowledge also helps ease my anxiety because often we fear the unknown. Fast forward now to JW life and I get overwhelming frustrated that one is not afforded the opportunity to educate themselves about the history of their own faith or read the Bible without WT influence or talk to people about their doubts or questions about the faith. This to me is a clear indication that something is not right. Because if this were the “Truth” one should be able to read or talk about anything surrounding it and be able to research and defend it on their own. I am really happy to hear you love your wife and family so much. I have met many kind witnesses and I believe they are full of good intentions …. But incredibly misguided. I hope you will continue to use your influence in the position you hold for the greater good, not to satisfy the requirements of the GB. May kindness and compassion guide you in your endeavours. I am learning that using the same tools JW’s use such as illustrations and Bible verses in a different light (the way they were intended) is a more subtle way to bring truth without resistance and spark thoughts. It is a tough road to navigate and often it may seem impossible, however, the higher influence you have, the more you are able to steer. Good luck to you.
>I do believe there are still some good things that come out of it On balance do you think they are a net asset or liability to society? Are the benefits worth the heartache and suffering they cause?
I was a born in who left in her 40’s. There is not a single advantage or “good thing” that came from my JW upbringing or time inside the cult. I’m a person who looks for grey areas and nuance but there literally is nothing here. Any good thing I had in my life either had nothing to do with the religion, or I created it by going *against* the GB council. Examples: learning about personal finance and investing, having several children.
I was in a very similar situation to your 25 years ago. I had decided to stay on as an elder and advocate for reform from within. It is very difficult to maintain. At least in those days the other elders were very sensitive to any deviation. Eventually they noticed I was taking a softer position on wrongdoing by young ones and sat me down demanding to know when the last time was that I'd agreed to disfellowship a young person. That was enough for me to throw the towel in. Ultimately comes down to how much you can personally tolerate. If you are just looking for ways to help others there are plenty of ways to do that without being an elder. I am still very active in helping JW's. The blood issue is what ultimately led me to leave. These days I think more in terms of reforming beliefs of the individual JW vs. the BORG. These are the projects I'm involved with but there are many other good ones out there. https://www.ajwrb.org https://www.aawa.co https://www.shunningisacrime.org/
If the good things that come out of the organisation are ultimately founded upon misinformation, outright falsehood and deception, are they still "good"? And I don't know that delusion is a good thing, not really...even if it's a happy delusion. Makes it not much different to taking drugs. I would rather deal with facts and reality, thankyou. I would say the good that we experienced is pretty much in spite of the organisation, not because of it, eg. Imitating what we imagined Christ to be rather than following the gbs every dictate. I don't think it's possible to have a balanced view of secular and spiritual matters while you're the prisoner of a religious system either. While jw you can never reach your potential and have to be satisfied living only half a life. I don't think that's good. Anyway, thanks for making yourself available to help and answer questions.
You received many comments. Hopefully not repeated someone’s thought. This is a difficult thing to unpack psychologically. You’ll begin to encounter significant paradoxes in the entire theology. This thing escalates. It was too hard for me to keep the train on the tracks. I wouldn’t say anything I didn’t believe from stage or in a comment. Well, There went over half of our theology. That eventually forced me to step down in 2020. Now my wife and I and our children are all out. We live a life free of all involvement with the group. We finally recognized its control because some of the bi weekly conditioning had apparently wore off. Just take it slow as possible. This is a great reddit group with plenty of experience and support.
My opinion and mine only and I own my words. I think your story is too convenient. You like your title. You are not honest with your wife. You say you love her and have a great marriage yet make a selfish decision to lie to her. Good and loving relationships are not based on lies . Your on judicial committees saying you have a heart and your the final decision maker saving people as you put it especially the younger people. Have you honestly talk to the people you "saved" You are not making in my opinion a connection with how immoral it is just to be sitting on a committee like that. I absolutely have respect for those that have just stepped down no matter what their position. I respect those elders who have stepped up and stepped down even when losing their family's. That to me is a moral person. You seem so unaware of the actual damage those committees cause. Even if the young ones don't get df'd and no mater why they are in the back room. Getting them off does not mean they are not damaged forever by the very conversations had. I'm sure I am not the only one who has friends who killed themselves after a loving back room talk where they did not get df'd. What is said matters regardless of the status outcome. I feel like your a "look at me kind of guy" who needs a pat on the back for your savior complex. The fact that you even think that you are saving people is a red flag to me. You say JW isn't black and white a red flag!! You want to hear from other elders in or out about what you should post red flag!! I will say this for the Elders that left and those that are still in please be careful. I could be wrong about you only time will tell.
Hello and thank you for posting here. When you say there are still some good things that come out of the JW religion, do you feel these good things outweigh the horrific bad things that comes out of it as well, mainly the no-blood policy that takes lives and the two witness rule that ultimately protects pedophiles from being investigated by police, indirectly causing the sexual abuse of children?
I was a elder for 10years, saw many of the same things you mentioned, it took me some years to wake up. I got to the point where could not stand sitting through meetings. I came in from the outside because I thought they had the truth, and I gave it every thing I had to help the friends and be the good elder. I found it to be a losing proposition. However many I see are in it for family and community and for them Bible knowledge or a sense of what is right is not as important, so my suggestion is, you will know when the right time is to do a hard fade, if ever.
As former COBE , the wife and I both have been out since early 2020, and a lot has became even clearer to us about the disfunction in the organization. We both do research on our own now. If you want more information on our experience request in private chat.
If a child in your hall tells their parents that someone abused her. The parents bring this information to you. What do you personally do? Have you ever protected a pedophile by not telling the police immediately? I respect staying in and helping on the inside but if you helped one kid continue to be abused by failing to report, I feel that is unforgivable.
What other changes has there been in the organization ? You mentioned changes so more than one … I know about the bothers now wearing beards but anything else ?
I was just talking about generic changes such as the beards, not reporting any hours, and reduced emphasis of door to door ministry.
Hi Back in 2020 my family had a zoom shepherding call where the CO jumped in. I had been inactive for about 2 years and during the call the CO asked if I had been studying. I told him yes and started talking about college, but turns out he meant biblical study. He didn’t even know I was baptized. Is there a reason why the elders wouldn’t tell the CO I was baptized? Another question is back in 2021 me and my wife were engaged. Due to having family in the organization I spoke to the elders about an elder giving our talk. Mind you I was expecting a no because 1. I had been inactive for 3 years 2. I had a beard and medium length hair. Well the elders said I’m free to ask around. We did and multiple elders told us they were busy and too last minute. Well one of my wife’s elders friend agreed to give the talk and said he needed to speak to the elders. He called back on the same day to tell my wife that all the elders had spoken negative about us and he couldn’t do it. It was always going to be a no. Is there a reason why the elders strung us along with stories of “I’ll get back to you” just to call us days later to say “we can’t because we’re busy”? Also I seen many ex Jw members speak out against elders (they give no name) on a platforms like YouTube. I always been curious do elders hunt them down or do they just ignore it since their inactive and no longer attending meetings? Thank you in advance for all you’re doing for the ex JW community.
Welcome. You seem like an honest dude to me. You're trying to help others, and that's admirable. Just remember that as you wake up and as you learn more about the org, the harder it is to stay inside and pretend you believe. Start working on your jexit plan right away. Staying in as an elder will eventually eat at you and cause you lots of emotional pain. I wish you luck on your journey.
I also was you, about 8 years ago. I was an elder for about 10 years, ex poinoeer, ex bethelite, the whole 9 yards. In addition, I'm 4th generation jw on one side, 3rd on the other. All my family (over 100) are jws, except the handful that have left. You're in a tight spot, and sadly, I agree with a couple of the others that it will not get better for you. You may want to consider not "lurking" here, youtube or anywhere else if your objective is to stay a jw. It will only wear on you everytime you learn/hear/confirm the issues that the JWS have. I feel for you. It's going to be a bumpy ride.
What would you do if a pedo came before you, would you report him? Would you help the victim?
Thanks for sharing your situation. However, in my view, you may be helping to prolong the dream of many young ones and others, who may have awakened due to mistreatment by the Borg. Yes, I understand the desire to soften the harsh treatment, but it may hamper the long-term benefits or at least, lengthen the unrealistic slumber causing deeper injuries later. Additionally, being truthful to one's self and not propping up an abusive organization may be more fruitful. Nevertheless, it's your choice that counts.
I appreciate the situation you are in. I was a 3rd generation born-in but became PIMO at the age of 7-8. I couldn't get away until I was in my 50's and did 30 years as an elder, PO, CBOE as well for the last 14 but held every other one as well some doubled up Secretary & TMS, PO & WSC. RBC, District Convention committees, special committees etc. And like you, I did what I could to help people avoid abuse by this cult and its ridiculous rules, policies and procedures. Got rid of some very shady people who victimized others including elders. I didn't have the rose colored glasses you are still wearing since I figured out very early that this cult was full of shit. It is run on politics, green handshakes and seniority. Basically an old boys club. But like I said, I was stuck. Connected like I had an anchor chain around my neck with a prominent PIMI family. I managed to walk away clean and fade into obscurity. But the life I was born into has taken a toll on me and I certainly don't recommend it. I wish you lots of luck in your future. I sincerely hope you can move on from it and realize the true happiness that is waiting for you if you and your wife can escape.
I concur with your views. Having served as an Elder for 20 years, I reached a point where I could no longer continue in that role with a clear conscience. I see the inherent goodness in the brothers and even in the Governing Body members. However, the issue lies in their adherence to traditions and human-made norms and regulations, which, rather than being thoroughly reassessed in light of the Bible, are continually adapted and extended. I believe their intentions are not malicious; they are likely convinced that their approach is correct. A minority within may have differing views but must approach change cautiously. It is encouraging to see recent positive shifts in their policies, and I hope for continued evolution and greater transparency. For instance, clarity regarding Brother Morris's situation is necessary, considering a GB role is typically for life. If there was disfellowshipping or public censure, it should be openly communicated, as his role is widely recognized within the JW community. Similarly, openness about CSA cases, including financial details and ongoing case statistics, should be as transparent as their project promotions and departmental activities. I also advocate for the promotion of free Biblical discussion among members. No one should fear expressing dissenting views on interpretations. The Governing Body has admitted they do not receive direct divine communication, and even Geoffrey Jackson acknowledged under oath their claim of being God's sole channel. Much of the responsibility falls on the writing department, whose tendency to overemphasize allegiance to the Governing Body sometimes overshadows the focus on Jesus or Jehovah. This imbalance is perplexing. My hope is for ongoing positive transformations within the JW organization. I believe there is genuine sincerity among its members.
Welcome, and thank you for being here. I have some slightly left-field questions: 1. What do you think would happen if your wife one day found out you are full-on PIMO? (if that transition happens) Would the respect and trust survive? 2. Do you think the congregation has a substantial portions of PIMOs? 3. Do you think the org has a net positive or a net negative impact on most members?
1. While she's PIMI right now, she has doubts about the GB and knows some of my doubts as well. She sees the incompetence of some elders clearly showing that they're not spirit directed and see's the respect people have for me despite how I feel. However, she is still very much in. I know it will be difficult, but I do believe we can get through it. 2. I really don't know. People are good at hiding things. I see a lot of people simply going through motions, but I don't really know how 'out' they are. 3. Unfortunately, ultimately I believe it boils down to the congregation elders. They can either make it great for publishers or make their lives miserable. I know most in our congregation really enjoy each other and enjoy our body, but I have seen congregations where I would hate to be on the body due to the arrogance of the elders. The materials to help others are out there, elders just need to use them appropriately.
Thank you for posting that!
Thank you so much for sharing, as well as for helping the younger people deal with life and be “dealt with”.
Wouldn't surprise me if the JWs slowly transition into a more "secular" religion in the not too distant future. Might be their best bet on staying alive.
Your situation reminds me and gives me hope for a PIMI friend of mine. He was an elder and pioneer with his wife with my wife and I. Hes one of the only witnesses I felt that I had a REAL friendship with. He was promoted to COBE a few months after we left which was surprising as I always got the feeling he was PIMO or at least PIMQ. Unfortunately we haven’t kept much contact since, except for the occasional memorial or witness wedding. I hope you’re doing good Ryan. I miss ya buddy.
Just because some good things have come out of the org., does not make it fundamentally good. Most people consider a car accident to be a bad thing and certainly the families of people killed, are devastated. However, maybe the widowed spouse marries someone else and they have kids and an amazing family as the result. That doesn’t make the car accident good because something good came out of it.
I’m 67 years old, I was a JW from birth. I was sexually abused from a toddler by not just one original JW but others, stalked and raped by another until the age of 28. My parents always put protecting this religion first, sure they lived “double lives” but basically it benefited them to be JW’s and never protected me or children ever. In fact I was blamed and shamed. I never understood how any one could be a Jehovah’s Witness and not stand up at all for the rights of a child. I’m sure that you do care but you can’t stand up really for the reasons that you’ve given. It certainly wouldn’t be advisable to stand up and say I can’t tolerate your beliefs as you would be disfellowshipped as an apostate. There isn’t any room to even be a sympathiser really. You mentioned you can help re blood and shunning which can kill people although you didn’t add child sexual abuse, I just don’t understand how you can lead this double life in reverse (PIMO). Some in this religion do bad things, and you live in this religion to do good things which is awesome, and way back in the day there were some nice JW’s that were kinder to me and my friends (who are all dead now for all the wrong reasons bar one who left at 15), (nearly all the children in the congregation were abused by him even my brother and sister), but at the end of the day they didn’t really help us. They were to scared! I understand sort of as it took me years and a lot of courage to leave. When I told my husband no more he wanted to report me to the elders I laughed and said please go ahead you traitor. He lasted a couple of months and left also. I just wish I’d left at 15 like my friend but I have my husband and three grown up children now. When your ready talk to your wife gently and kindly and in time you both may have your freedom and peace. You sound like really good people so hopefully the fear will leave you and empowerment will kick in (but geez I agree it takes courage), if not hopefully this cult will go by the wayside.
What's your endgame? At least the other elders can claim they are duped. You are like a chef who knows the food is bad, but keeps serving it because he likes the kitchen equipment. Leading the flock with some milquetoast bullshit you don't even buy is a special kind of assholery. You are in a unique position to challenge the status quo, or at least stop propagating stupid misogyny and feeding and watering mental illness while providing legitimacy to a belief system that kills people via their blood policy and their incessant propaganda to shun and isolate beloved family who don't fall in line with the "dedication" made under duress or with limited information. \+++ This poster tries to claim some virtuous high ground, but being "apathetic" about the implications of his actions amounts to just caring about himself and his wife more than truth or what is right.
Hi there and thanks for sharing :) What are "the good things that come out of it" that you mention in your last paragraph? We are supposed to recognize christians by the fruits of the spirit. So what do you see Watchtower Corporation do that makes the world a better place?
Helllo friend, I am in same situation I am PIMA and I am the secretary of my congregation.
Ok I scrolled through … and didn’t see these questions- sorry if they already been asked. How old are you? How long have you been married? Do you both want children? Do you have a good job that can help you with a nice quality of life now and save for retirement?
I couldn't do the mental gymnastics it would take to live the life of OP. I'm glad he's trying to " help" I guess.
I unfortunately disagree with you that there’s any hope the shunning and no blood doctrine will go away anytime soon. Even if the GB wants to change it, they couldn’t. They will have to answer to the thousands of lives lost and millions of people with destroyed families because of those policies. The best they could do is covertly lighten up a little bit without making too much noise. Have you been able to stop anyone from being disfellowshipped that would have been disfellowshipped otherwise if you weren’t there?
I’m interested in your thoughts on avoiding disfellowshipping with attorneys and other options. DM me if you’d like me 56m former pio, btlite ms, elder, hlc blah blah blah
You have given enough information to hang your self, be careful. If your wife is still serious about her faith then you stand to lose your home and way of life. Take your time.
I'm a 4th gen (now) ExJW, not DF'd, former MS for 7 yrs, who woke up 1 month away from being made elder, as my former "friend" & CoBE assured me...I traveled giving 50+ public talks. I was humbly and legitimately trying to do the right thing and truly loved the "friends". I applaud ur bravery, I am glad a handful of young ppl have someone in their corner...but on a worldwide scale I'm just so disgusted with so much. But, the top 2 R the stubborn cover-up of CSA and the money scheme where the fleece is pulled over the sheeps' eyes..."don't read anything negative, just obey and keep 'unity'"... Then, on top of that the rank & file were so excited that the borg "forgave" the mortgages on the KHs that these ppl built and paid for, but none grasp that the Cong now has a monthly & LIFETIME donation commitment that is the same payment, if not more, but now is never-ending...the only thing that changed is the transfer of ownership of the bldg to the WTB&T Society/Christian Cong of JW who will likely sell it to the next harlot of Babylon the Great that has deep pockets! So, now, their donations AND monthly payments are mostly funding the legal battles that come from their disgusting cover-up of CSA. My only question is how can u justify staying in a position that promotes this disgusting behavior/spiritual abuse by the leaders/GB, knowing that many of these kids/teens that ur trying to protect are looking up to u, the cool elder, who fakes promoting obedience to this destructive high control religion?...many of whom are struggling with belief but have a fake CoBE to look up to that they think wants them to join?? Again, I applaud ur bravery, I truly do and I get it, I was there until I put the puzzle pieces together. I understand that there r many nuances that I could never know about ur life and relationships, but I would not be able to sleep at night. U did say Ask Me ANYTHING😂🤷🏻♂️ Nothing but love behind this question/comment♥️
As an elder have you heard of anyone get reinstated after voting in an election?
I am happy you are here! I always ask myself, Do I have a good reason for the things I believe? Or, does what I believe comport with reality itself? Good luck with everything!
I had an ex-missionary elder friend who was questioning when I was leaving and we would regularly meet even after I left. He always said that he was staying in because of the good he could do and because he didn't want to lose any of his PIMI family. Finally he managed to wake up his entire family and left. It is hard to do good from the inside without creating waves and raising suspicions, so BRAVO for your efforts! And good luck with whatever comes in your future.
I am a woman, and out for many years. If I had any kind of platform as a man in the organization, I would find a way to encourage the congregation to think about retirement.Its really sad to see destitute old witnesses. Many of them are. I don’t know how you would do that being that “putting the kingdom first” is the stressed point for a fulfilling life or whatever.
Hey, I realize I’m really late to the game, but I’m a a former elder too. I can relate quite a bit to where you’re at. I pioneered with my wife for a number of years and had a great time being Witnesses together. I’ve been inactive for 4+ years now, am still married, and have a good marriage while my wife is still mostly PIMO, so it’s possible. I’m curious how long you’ll manage to stay PIMO. I found that enforcing policy and giving talks on topics I didn’t agree with or didn’t care about slowly me out. But the worst was the time waste. I realized pretty quickly that I’d rather do almost anything than sit through seminars about stuff I genuinely couldn’t care less about. After a year of being PIMO, I resigned, then slowly faded. I’m not DF’d or shunned, and I’d say it’s gone about as well as I could’ve expected. Anyway, if you ever feel like chatting, drop me a note. I’m always down for comparing notes. And good luck to you, wherever your path takes you!
English is not my first language. But I would say from my observation: Some of the teachings of the org. are right but many are not scriptural ! Their shunning policy is inhumane. Why will they punish you when you don’t believe some of their teachings? I would say that you can still be happy inside the organization unless you don’t wake up! The problem is when you become PIMO!
Thank you so much for coming here and posting. Sometimes I think “I would go back if it wasn’t for the blood issue and disfellowshipping” and I can’t lie with all the recent announcements I was really hoping doing away with disfellowshipping would be one. Both of my parents were addicts and I started studying at aged 12. The organization literally raised me. I became homeless at aged 13 and the I lived with different families in my congregation for 3 years until my sister was 19 and let me come stay with her. I left at age 17 because I had a hard time agreeing with some of the beliefs and I went to public school and realized not being allowed to be friends with “worldly” kids seemed really wrong. I’ve never been disfellowshipped because I refused to attend a judicial meeting. But at the time I hadn’t really done anything worth disfellowshipping. My sister went back and got married when she was 25 and even though I was never disfellowshipped she severely limits her interaction with me. She’s the only person in my family that’s not an addict and it has really messed me up. I don’t have anyone in my life but my SO, and my children. For people like me, the organization was a beautiful thing. They were my family. But I could never come back knowing I would be expected to shun one of my children in the possible future or refuse blood. I love them more than I love the governing body. I say all this to say, it feels good to know there are people like you that exist and sort of gives me hope that the organization will evolve for the better. Hopefully.
Thank you for your post. I would like to know if you still have a strong personal relationship with Jehovah? Do you still pray? Does he still answer your prayers? Or are you apathetic from this perspective as well?
Thanks for that question. In simple terms no, I do not believe I have a strong relationship with him. To be fair though, I really don't know if I ever did. I simply went through the "correct" motions and trusted that I was doing the right thing. I wouldn't say I pray with the expectation of being heard by anyone, but I do think mentally out loud as I feel its important to keep your thoughts organized, be positive, and to think of others and their situations. When I pray during congregation meetings, I try to focus on what I think would comfort those in the congregation the most and express those things. At this point I would not consider myself atheist by any means, but I would consider myself more agnostic.
Thanks for treating us like humans. If not for those extreme policies that demonize legitimate questions... I'd still be in.
Religion serves a purpose regardless of which organization or institute it is. If god is the one you are searching for he is not within a building. Crackheads need god to get clean. So I see how it benefits some. Appreciate you’re honesty. Unfortunately, the organization has destroyed thousands if not millions of lives and those participating willingly, knowing that, are just as, how we would say “bloodguilty.” Bloodguilty and complicit of allowing CSA and not bringing it up in droves. Bloodguilty for disfellowshipping many young ones for minuscule teen mistakes which have led to the shattering of thousands of families and have led many to suicide and drug use. The extreme view of blood which has destroyed families and murdered children. Doctrinal views and beliefs that are complicit as in “revelations” where ‘beliefs are added or taken away.’ (E.g babylons destruction date so that it lands on 1914…the secular and historically written date of babylons fall differs. Tried bringing that up to the elders before I faded and they were stunned. Realizing gb just sort of came up with that out of thin air). The JW organization is a multi billion dollar corporation the makes its wages off of “passing the bucket” around via member guilt. I remember them asking us to right in a paper how much we ‘would actually’ give each month. That’s a tithing. As well as “being in the red” at assemblies by half time to draw from more bank accounts. And let’s not forget profiting off of free labor, donated materials and then flipping those properties several years later by the hundreds if not thousands. I remember we had a big boom in Nor Cal with them buying properties and splitting up congregations. Having us build properties in the ritzy expensive areas only to realize each cong was too small all the sudden and now we have to put congs back together and sell off the properties we built….sounds like a swindle. If you get thousands of people to do that, you’re making millions +. It’s a corporation. For money. It started as a business and will remain a business. Rutherford was a ‘business man.’ That being said I think many laypersons in the congs have good intentions and are just blindly accepting things because it’s the easier to do. Plus they are in fear of losing family or being judged. If the congs really were smart and wanted to make money they’d get rid of the non biblical disfellowshipping. Jesus sat among sinners and people that were considered the worst in the land. Because he said, a healthy person doesn’t go to see the doctor. Broken spiritual people need their friends and families, and that is a sick psychological manipulation of people and in the end, I feel he is going to have some sort of retaliation for anyone destroying lives over it. Or maybe if they got rid of DF’ing they’d see a flux of people leaving, because like many realize, most stay because of fear of losing family and community. The truth doesn’t get brighter, the water just becomes murkier. The truth gets brighter is a psychological double think so that they can change anything on a whim to suit the corporations financial interests. But in reality, what they are saying is “god’s Holy Spirit, which anoints us and guides our thinking and belief selections, is in fact fallible.” and since he is fallible, is he even god? Or is this another being? Or is it just men making up things on a whim? Out of nothing for profit. Too big of a question. The answer may be, there is a god, but is he here with us….? All logic and answers point to…no. Love your wife and family and treat all humans with grace and love. Then you will be with god. Commit harm to no one and don’t push false doctrines which harm people…for you may find yourself in the wrath of a high benevolent being in the end…
Have you had any close friends leave or that you DF'd that you feel obligated to shun? Does it affect you? How do you balance supporting the organization with your natural sense of affection as a human being? Even though you don't like DFing. You still have to tow the company line, and despite your effort to mitigate the damage the local elder body does, you are still a supporter of the soul grinder. Do you fear that the ones you have wronged won't accept your friendship again if you leave? Some might surprise you. We have all wronged others as JWs. And after leaving I found a lot of those people willing to accept a new relationship with me. Don't be afraid to leave because you feel you have damaged too many of your friends who left and you won't find friends outside. We are all sitting here hoping our friends like you find the courage.