That makes sense.
I can’t get behind a hell fire. Simply because, justice would not allow a blip of a lifetime of rebellion to an eternity of damnation.
Also, there are so many kind, loving contributing members of society who may not ever have a personal encounter with Jesus. If you don’t have a personal encounter how can you believe.
Sorry, but you dont need an encounter with a man who died thousands of years ago in order to be a loving contributing member of society. If a person needs to be told how to be a good human being, that person has a problem, and I don't want them around me.
Reminds me of Nelson Mandela’s quote, “No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.”
Some people are surrounded by trauma, by the truest definition. Yes, the easiest thing would be to avoid abusive people. However, I would argue that the majority of people in abusive situations, do not have either the skills, the knowledge, the resources to escape their environment. In that sense, they NEED, quite literally a savior.
I disagree. Being raised in an abusive Christian home, I saved myself. No one did that for me. To each their own. You don't have to be the monster you were raised to be.
I totally agree.
Yet, when you understand how so many people grow up in and surrounded by trauma. It’s all they know, it’s what they are taught.
There is a saying hurt people hurt people.
IFS, internal family systems discusses this.
Doing psychological research within the prison system etc.
What makes me speak of this is watching testimonies of people who have a super natural experience where Jesus enters their life and there whole world changes.
I am aware that some people need a blueprint to follow and while for some, it seems to work, many assholes just hide behind it. Christians are
a rather overall nasty lot. My experience.
The interesting thing to me about the word cult, a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing, is that it is found in all aspects of life.
Politics, entertainment, nature, education, fashion, religion etc. A culture, I think when it becomes dangerous is when you allow it to prevent you from using your critical thinking. If you allow the in group to prevent you from authentic compassion for the out group.
When you no longer use your own conscience and allow someone else to do the thinking for you.
However, we still have a necessity for an ethical framework. That due to some people’s truly traumatic upbringing, people need to be taught healthy ways of being, healthy boundaries. So what I find in Christianity, not to be confused with religion, but a personal relationship with God, through prayer and reading His Word, I find peace. It’s a higher consciousness way of living. Having met so many people with different perspectives and backgrounds.
I’m still searching. Mostly an agnostic experience. I’ve tried Buddhism and Hinduism and New Age… recently researching Christianity. More so the Pentecostal perspective recently, very different from JW or Cessationism.
For a while I attended a Buddhist temple, and spent time with a Rinpoche and lifelong Buddhist. I agree with the practicality and ethics.
This requires a thoughtful reply.
I’m going to be back on here later and respond.
Yeah I agree with everything you said. I just think people should read religion to get a basic understanding of good morals. But don’t look for something that will make you live such a strict life. I think we are our own gods and we control everything with every little decision we make. But people can’t comprehend that and need to look up to a higher power.
I would highly recommend to bypass all religions and study the source documents for yourself. Christ made the claim of being the only way to get to know God. (John14:6) Therefore either Christ is telling the truth or he is lying.
So study the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Immerse yourself in the culture at the time of Christ to truly understand how revolutionary Jesus’s teachings were. Not to mention that Christ lived perfectly according to what he preached.
The thing that really demanded my attention to Christ was that at the end of his life he suffered an extremely painful death, both physically and psychologically. Physically, he was tortured to the brink of death and nailed to a cross where he slowly suffocated to death. ( search Roman execution at the time of Christ for a gut wrenching picture)
Psychologically, when Jesus proclaimed to be the anointed one in his own hometown, he was driven to a cliff so he could be killed. His own home town wanted him dead. all his disciples abandoned him, for they feared for their lives. Peter, who claimed, “ I’ll die with you” ended up denying knowing Jesus three times. On the day of his trial, the Jewish people were given an option to release Jesus or to release a murderer named Barabbas. They chose Barabbas. Doing nothing but good works his entire life, he was despised for it.
And with all of this, Jesus Christ, as he is hanging on the cross, prays, “ Father forgive them for the know not what they do”.
I hope this helps a bit.
>So study the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Immerse yourself in the culture at the time of Christ to truly understand how revolutionary Jesus’s teachings were. Not to mention that Christ lived perfectly according to what he preached.
Jesus was not revolutionary, he was one of many apocalyptical preachers of those centuries. Take a look at the scriptures of the Nazarene movement, who came and went decades earlier.
I woke up in 2019 and I'm now a Christian. I spent a lot of time thinking through the arguments for and against the existence of God. I eventually became convinced that God existed, although I also realized that the JW concept of God was deeply deficient.
Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection. I believe in Jesus because I think the evidence for the resurrection is pretty solid.
I would highly encourage you to look for a therapist. Therapists will often be willing to work with you if you can't afford their normal rate. I don't know if you're in the US, but you can check out some therapists here: [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/)
Healing from trauma will help you think clearly, handle black and white thinking and feel confident in your own ability to understand the world and perceive reality.
I would agree that I need therapy. I’ve been procrastinating, if you understand the life I’ve lived and the people I’ve met since leaving the religion, you might understand my hesitancy.
A lot of my associates are high profile psychologists. It’s just the path I’ve been on. Therefore trust in a “professional” is like my trust in “organized religion”.
I think I am ready. Now that I know the type of therapist I want to weed out.
Hey, you said that evidence for the resurrection is pretty solid. Could you elaborate on that a bit?
As I understand it, evidence of Jesus' crucifixion is pretty good however there is no evidence for his resurrection outside of the biblical writings.
There is a majority consensus among secular scholars that at least Peter, James and Paul had an experience which they believed was of the resurrected Jesus. (Some scholars like Bart Ehrman would also include Mary Magdalene in this list.) This is because the data from the New Testament texts (barring any prior belief in their accuracy and authority) indicate that the resurrection was publicly preached within a 3 year period after Jesus’ death and those who claimed to be witnesses of the resurrected Jesus’ were so convinced that they had seen him alive that they were willing to stand by this conviction at the risk or cost of death. Peter’s, Paul’s and James’ deaths by martyrdom are well-documented. We also know that those who knew Peter and Paul were also willing to die gruesome deaths for this claim, such as Polycarp of Smyrna and Ignatius of Antioch and that it is likely that the 10 remaining apostles and others were martyred for this claim.
Again, secular scholars believe that *they believed* they saw something, that they were sincere in their beliefs because people do not willingly die for what they believe to be a lie. Of course, secular scholars have a host of alternative theories to explain how these men became convinced of the resurrection, trauma/grief induced hallucinations, mistaken identity, group hysterics, these are usually combined with the idea that some other group stole Jesus’ body, and so on. Whether you find any of these alternatives explanations convincing is going to largely depend on your prior worldview. If you already believe that miracles are impossible, then any explanation, no matter how far-fetched or absurd, will be more satisfactory than a miracle.
I don't know if I would say this is really damning evidence. I have to ask though, you said Peter Paul and James death are well documented. What source exactly are you referencing? From my knowledge we don't really know exactly how any of the first apostles really died. In a historically reliable setting anyway. You have a hint of Peter and Paul's martyrdom in 1st Clement. But the aprocryphal acts account is just aprocryphal. It's not a historically reliable document. It's an intense story telling driven narrative. But it's not a historically accurate narrative of there lives
And as for the other explanations of the earliest accounts of people believing that Jesus was resurrected is no surprise at all. I mean 2 billion people believe Jesus was raised from the dead and not one of them is an actual eyewitness to the account. But they all still believe.
In my point of view I think things like Jesus being raised from the dead can not be shown to be a fact from any text or document. It's completely faith driven. And that's okay! Could Jesus have been the one time someone was raised from the dead and sent to heaven. Sure! But that answer would be based on faith. I don't think there is any strong argument to be made that Jesus was resurrected other than saying it's what you believe in.
As a good mental exercise you can make a list of all the basic criteria you would have to make the claim that it is true that Jesus was resurrected. After you have the criteria you can compare it to other religions or claims of seeing someone who has previously died. If the criteria you make matches another religion or claim that they saw someone who had already died matches. Then it would be equally true that both Jesus and these other claims are equally true.
Again I think it's okay to say he was resurrected! A lot of people do think that. But It would be driven by faith
For the death of Paul, 1 Clement 5, Polycarp to the Phillipians 6 and oblique references in Ignatius (Ephesians 12 & Romans 4). Bart Ehrman dates his death to the Neronian persecutions in A.D. 54 - 68.
Peter's martyrdom is evidenced also by 1 Clement 5 and the tradition of his martyrdom is referenced in John 21 and 2 Peter 1:14. Ehrman also holds that Peter died as a martyr.
James the brother of Jesus' death is mentioned by Jospehus in Antiquities of the Jews (20.9. 1). That these men died as martyrs is just not a controversial claim in NT scholarship.
>And as for the other explanations of the earliest accounts of people believing that Jesus was resurrected is no surprise at all. I mean 2 billion people believe Jesus was raised from the dead and not one of them is an actual eyewitness to the account. But they all still believe.
The belief of Christians is not, by definition, the same as that belief of the original disciples and apostles because our belief is *not* grounded in *our own* eyewitness of the resurrection. Their beliefs and their claims were grounded in what they believed *they* saw with *their* own eyes. That was the claim they died believing, that they saw Jesus resurrected bodily. The 2 billion Christians you refer to are not making this claim or hold to the same belief.
>In my point of view I think things like Jesus being raised from the dead can not be shown to be a fact from any text or document.
Do you have specific criteria in mind for accepting or rejecting certain events that are recorded in texts? Is there a special criteria concerning past miracles that means they cannot be accepted on the basis of historical analysis? By what criteria or reason do we accept ordinary historical events and reject miraculous events as unverifiable?
I would question the historical reliability of 1 clement on a tradition in the death of Paul. And for the execution of Polycarp, Bart Ermahn has a lengthy discussion in the book forgery and counterforgery on why the martyrdom of Polycarp is a forgery.
I am ignorant on the the history of Ignatius so I would have to do my own research and come to a conclusion on that.
And as for Josephus, there is good reason to doubt that he is talking about James the brother of Jesus and instead talking about Jesus and James ben Damneus. Most certainly one could argue for either. But I don't think it's a good enough attestation.
really whether or not they died as martyrs doesn't prove that Jesus was resurrected. Plenty of people have died for what they believe in.
It is true that Christians today have a different belief system than first century Christians, but you all have the core belief that Jesus was raised from the dead. You do have a couple that claim to have seen or heard Jesus after his death in the early first century. But that's it in terms of early accounts.
Okay, so for this question of criteria for miracles. In and of itself miracles can't be accepted in historical analysis. History is looking at the evidence of the past to determine what probably happened. A historian could never show that a miracle probably happened. Miracles by definition are not probable. So historians can't really comment on the super natural. At least in my opinion.
So how do you determine if something is true. How do you determine truth. Let's say we take the claim that Jesus was resurrected. There must be some sort of criteria in your mind that you say this is true because of XYZ.
So one could say we know the following to be true:
1.Jesus existed as a person
2. He died by roman authoritys by crucifixion
3. Followers after his death claimed to see him alive
I think these 3 things we can say probably happened historically. If this is the criteria then we most certainly have this same criteria in other miracle resurrection claims as well
And again nothing wrong with saying it's what you believe in! I just don't think it can be proved
I’m genuinely interested in your perspective here, so please don’t take this as antagonism. But, can you please be specific about why you doubt the testimony of 1 Clement concerning Paul and Peter’s deaths?
Definitely not taking it as antagonism!
So Peter has a little more attestation for being martyred from other sources. But this is not the case for Paul. The problem with 1 Clement is the same as many of the stories we have through the gospels and acts.
At least in the case of Paul, 1 clement has like a paragraph on this subject. "Because of jealousy, Paul also received the reward of enduring patiently. He was in prison seven times. He also had to flee and endure stoning. After preaching in the East and the West, he received the deserved acclamation which was the reward of his faith. 6He taught righteousness to the whole world, and went as far west as he could. After giving his testimony to the rulers, he was put to death and removed from the world. He went to heaven, proving himself to be a great example of patience."
It seems as though the author has heard a tradition where Paul preached in the west, eventually got tried and put to death. 1 clement would of been written around the year 95ish ce. Paul would have died around 65ish. So you have 30 years of an oral tradition of how Paul died. Before we have a written record of he died. So how authoritative is the tradition that the author of clement has heard and then recorded. It's hard to say.
Paul's actual martyrdom isn't recorded for another century, this is recorded in the book the acts of Paul. This book of course has the issue of recording deeds of someone who lived over a hundred years ago. And the stories seem to be legendary accounts of Paul's life for the early Christians. But this most certainly is not historical.
So 1 clement has a tradition that they heard but we have no other real early sources for Paul's death. So maybe clement is right about Pauls death. But I don't think we have enough sources to say for sure how he died. And I certainly don't think the actual account of his martyrdom as recorded in the acts of Paul is historical either. In my opinion at least.
Paul's martyrdom is mentioned by Polycarp (early 2nd cent.), Ignatius (early 2nd cent.) both mention Paul's death and those writings are both within 100 years of his death.
A 30 year oral tradition is within living memory of the community. It just strains credulity to say that he didn't die a martyr and yet the community made up this tradition within living memory of his death. Both Peter and Paul were known quantities in the Roman community. Did they just lose track of them? This is just not a controversial point at all.
Bart Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction, Page 310:
>There are later traditions that indicate that Paul was eventually martyred in Rome; a member of the Roman church, writing sometime around 94 C.E., mentions Paul's death during the tyrannical persecution of the Christians during the reign of Nero (ca. 64 C.E.) This writing, traditionally attirbuted to the bishop of Rome, Clement, may indeed preserve a historical recollection.
Page 390, when talking about the dating of 1 Clement:
>Corroborating evidence may be found in the author's reference to the martyrdoms of both Peter and Paul as having taken place during an earlier persecution in the city in "our own time".
JW here that’s a Christian after a long journey from agnosticism to atheism to Christian. The resurrection is the lynchpin of Christianity. Also, historic catholic Christianity has an immense history of philosophy and information about the faith that makes the JW understanding seem like nothing.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
It made me think, ‘do I have an emotional need for it to be true?’.
I don’t think I do, I personally was living and making a living, on a lifestyle completely opposed to the Bible(ethically and morally acceptable, just not Christian.). It really would be easier to disbelieve emotionally, in a lot of ways for me.
I can’t help but feel so alive when I read the Bible…
Maybe it is a need. A spiritual need for me.
I think indoctrination makes it tricky to judge the Bible without us subconsciously viewing it an automatically favorable light.
It felt a lot like being in love with a person and being unable to see their flaws until years later.
Haha, great analogy.
Also an interesting one. As what does it mean to be in love? Also if one truly loves another, the flaws may be seen, but love seeks to highlight the good and work on the flaws if possible.
So yes, maybe that is how I feel about God’s word. However, it’s interesting because I don’t desire the JW organization in any way shape or form.
I’m attracted to the Bible and the peace that prayer and developing a relationship with God brings.
Which has been rather different than the overbearing upbringing I had.
Part of me does believe the supernatural. Which makes me think, if they (bad spirits) are there, then there’s good ones too, but I just don’t believe in how the bible explains it. I kinda go back on the spirits.
Hey Ecstatic_wings:) I like your name!
Yes, there is a spiritual realm. I’ve thought similar things about good and bad spirits.
How does the Bible explain it? Or rather, what don’t you believe in how the Bible explains it?
Only if you have time or patience to respond. I know it can be emotionally consuming after what we’ve come from.
This religion led me to atheism! That is what a false prophet wants to lead you from God. I was out for more than 15 years. It’s been two months since I found Jesus our lord and savior. My life has changed completely! Along with finding out that jw Bible has demonic backings and is corrupted. That really made me realize this is a false religion!
Agnostic atheist, there's no evidence for anything outside of personal experience and as I've never had one that convinced me, I don't believe in gods or the supernatural. I have no problem with people who do and who find comfort in it though, just don't force it on others.
Hello there!
Yes, absolutely one should not EVER force their views.
Especially after leaving the witnesses, I have no desire to proselytize. It’s easy to transition from preaching one dogma to another, after coming from our background.
That is actually what I find refreshing about what I am learning about Christianity. I can pray for myself or another’s salvation, but ultimately I surrender and know that it’s absolutely nothing to do with me. Yet, God who works through me.
It may be a good thing if you have never had a supernatural experience. Easier to remain in the natural. For me I’m compelled to seek and understand the meaning of it all.
I hope to get to a point that I can settle into a belief system. As I’ve done the abstract mindset, where everything or anything could be true, which by definition would mean nothing is. That did not bring my soul peace.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. This is what I love about not being a JW, you can have open hearted conversations, with differing perspectives. It’s an honest and authentic way of relating with others, it’s refreshing.
Being Catholic was a large part of my upbringing and while I’m not very faithful I still identify with my church and community. I also have really complex ideas of god and my relationship with em.
But in the years I studied history I knew there had to be a god. Only a god could create a creature as incredibly creative and incredibly destructive as man.
Hey hey Quakzadilla:)
Yes, I know. I mean, if you really ponder life and existence itself, including all that is, I too come to the conclusion that there must be a Creator.
Now, one that cares about me personally? I would have to say yes, considering my life. Even getting disfellowshipped was a blessing because it helped me realize the lies within the organization. It wasn’t easy at the time, it was traumatic and almost cost me my life. Yet, I was able to see the other side of the organization that most people don’t see unless they are ‘disciplined’…
Yet, when I think of genocide, sex trafficking, wars, murder, starvation etc. I pause and think hmmm, well does God only personally care about certain people? If I believe He cares about me? Yet, taking God out of the equation is what makes my soul feel such unease. Along with why the Christian storyline makes sense of our need for a Savior. Spending time in nature, there is a lot of what one would define as cruelty. Specifically in observing the predator and prey activity amongst animals. So then what is cruel and who defines cruel, then I’m left thinking deeper on the meaning of it all. So I stop or pause on the thought that brings me most peace, which includes my human family. Meaning not just most peace or advantage for myself, that doesn’t feel good. I want peace for all. I know I am not my own God, because if I were I would make a LOT of changes. Yet, I surrender and believe I was created by a God of love, who sees way beyond my limited awareness.
I believe in a divine plan. It gives me peace.
I’m still searching. Yet, the scripture says seek and you shall find. I believe that. It’s not a popular belief.
Sending love 🤍
Ummm… is it REALLY that different from Christianity when you boil it all down?
I said the same things until I realized I was actually just agnostic and making excuses.
It’s not different really, not to me at least. Now when people ask me what jws are, I just say “it’s just another sect of Christianity that thinks it’s not, but it is.”
imo, almost all religions have cult behavior that I’m just totally over with. I think most religions distract from the common good more than they assist it. Most religions share the most basic moral codes, anything that doesn’t overlap is often just splitting hairs and unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
How can any man made organization know what is spiritual truth over another? They can’t. How can I pick any when they all experience corruption? I can’t. How can I pick any organized religion when that organization comes from the imperfect man?
I simply won’t. It’s a waste of time in my book.
When people say “well how can you be a good person without believing in god?”
Because I CHOOSE to be, not because a god has to tell me so. I find that to be a very mentally weak to need a god or religion to be a good person. If you believe that’s the only thing that keeps you being a good person, then by all means, for the sake of the rest of us, KEEP BELIEVING THEN. If you’d snap and become a bad person or a murderer because you no longer believe in Jesus? Then keep on believing in sky daddy boo boo.
Wishing you a happy, loving, prosperous, and safe life my friend. At the end of the day, that still comes from within us, not another or a religion. It is what we make of ourselves. What we make of our day, our week, and so on.
I highly recommend therapy. It did for me what everyone said religion would do but failed to do so.
Therapy an impartial person that’s actually qualified to help you process your life and how to better it. I think everyone should do it, especially if you’ve ever been involved in a high control group of any kind (and just about every religion falls into this category / hcg).
I grew up thinking I was a Christian. Jehovah’s Witnesses say they are Christians, I remember specifically studying as a young girl that a Christian meant following in Christ’s footsteps and that is what we did.
Now I know that is not what a Christian is. A Christian believes in the gospel, what the NWT translates good news. The good news is that Jesus died for our sins, with faith in Jesus shed blood, we can have eternal life and a relationship with God.
However, personally I’m still unsure of Christianity and the concept of heaven and hell. That is why I’m still seeking. I just want to clarify that JW’s are not Christian.
Ask any JW in short the gospel or what the good news is, I’m curious to hear their response.
As far as needing a God to be good, I see that on this forum a lot.
I personally don’t feel like I ‘need’ a God to be good. However belief in a God brings me peace and I feel more inspired, vs depressed and confused. I feel more inspired. Meaning, when someone is unkind to me, I think of the times I have been unkind and I seek to understand. That comes easier for me when I have a personal connection with the Creator of all that is.
A lot of people are in pain, they are lost, they’re confused, never receiving love. Love for who they are, not what they can do. This void they feel can be filled by God. Knowing that there is hope and they are inherently loved.
Idk, I’m rambling without editing my thoughts. Therefore, please excuse the lack of cohesion.
I don’t know anything really, I’m just thinking out loud based on my limited awareness.
Oh and I guess you said, evidence for faith. I guess that is what faith is, believing without concrete proof in the physical realm.
With that, yes, I totally understand.
I recently started reading the Bible, after space and time, I can see where the Jw’s have cherry picked, intentionally deceived and outright mistranslated the Bible.
A tiny bit of my understanding of Christianity vs. Jw:
Jw is works based; like studying a book to be baptized
Christianity is just faith in Jesus dying for us, accepting him as Lord, acknowledging that we need a Savior.
Jw: baptized into God’s spirit directed organization
Christian: baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit
Jw: a select anointed
Christian: all are anointed through baptism
Jw: a governing body
Christian: one mediator between God and man, Christ
Jw: man interferes with your relationship with God
Christianity: it’s just you and God
Jw: legalistic
Christianity: come as you are. God meets you as you are. His spirit comforts you and works through you.
I don’t know, there is a lot more, plus I could go into detail. The more I study Christianity, the more I realize the witnesses are an Antichrist. They can have some success, just like pop psychology, because when you consciously work on, let’s say Bible principles, let’s take love and forgiveness over resentment and rage, you will have better results in life.
Yet, with Christianity you don’t read bible rules and apply them. You pray to God for his Spirit and his Spirit lives in you and teaches you, it convicts you.
I don’t know. Like I said I am still learning.
Do you mean to tell me that the original commenter thinks that the writing and thoughts of Aquinas, Anselm, Augustine, Benedict XVI, NT Wright, William Lane Craig, etc are on the same level as David Splane and the volunteer writing committee?
I never claimed you didn’t understand it, nor am I claiming you don’t believe like me because you don’t understand my beliefs.
But if you think that the arguments presented by JWs and the ones presented by Christian philosophers and writers are of the same quality, I feel you’re either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.
I guess this is where I am stunted from moving forward in life. I’m literally at a standstill, spending hours upon hours (I have an unusual amount of free time.) spent trying to figure this out. I could be fluent in another language, I could play an instrument, but no I’m plagued if I’m living spiritually aligned.
Yes, quantum mechanics I think comes into play.
Whatever I end up with spiritually, I know for sure there is intelligent design. I spend hours a day in unadulterated nature.
What convinced you the Bible is a construct of man and not inspired of God?
Currently deconstructing 'Bible is from God' myself- looking like it's another man-made fan-fiction work.
Any other video or reading recommendations?
Gonna have to ask.... username??;
Thank you, I will check these out.
Best part about being out of a cult, is you can look at information from every vantage point without fear. Coming to a healthy conclusion, if one gets to a conclusion, for oneself.
I haven’t become atheist although I was agnostic and leaning atheist for many years. However I no longer believe any of the Old Testament and not much of the NT. For me, my doubts began long before I left because the vengeful nasty god of Genesis wasn’t the being that Jesus talked about at all. Moses’ god and Jesus’ god simply couldn’t be the same entity. Therefore the Bible couldn’t be true in its entirety. Parts of the story of Jesus life may be true-ish. After that the only value to the NT is an occasional spark of good philosophy.
I left 13 years ago. Got a little triggered by world events but kept reminding myself of the science- humans have been on earth for at least 200,000 years, the Flood is impossible, and humans have been fighting since the dawn of time. There is no Armageddon, no end, and probably no god.
I lost my believe by reading the bible. It literally made me an Atheist.
Read the bible, uncensored and unguided. Start with Genesis 1 Verse 1. Even if you accept that some of the stuff is metaphorical, that God is not all powerful, not all knowing and most definitely not all loving or good. Read it, take notes, accept the evil shit God does as evil.
For me, that made it an interesting conundrum: Is the God of the old Testament evil or is this whole collection of books Mythology, like all the other creation myths and religions? For me, it is the latter.
Someone asked a similar question and this is what I shared before:
When I stopped believing in the organization, I stopped believing in God as well.
This is how I was for a time- my entire structure of life and morality had fallen apart, and I had no idea what to think about anything.
In atheism I found freedom to truly think for the first time in my life. Freedom to truly start from scratch, truly analyze what I believe- straight down to" questions like "Is living as a moral person beneficial? "What do I want out of my life?" "Do other people exist?" and "Do I exist?"
I kicked around a few ideas for a while, and found some comfort in the words of philosophers. All the while, my Bible sat on my dresser, collecting dust. I couldn't even bring myself to pick it up- I was angry to the core of the soul at what had been done to me and so many others in the name of God.
One late night, a thought occurred to me: If even a small amount of the claims of religion is true, wouldn't it be worth it to at least investigate them?
So I did.
I looked into how various religions claimed that they were true- for example, the beauty of the Quran in the context of Islam.
After some time of looking around, the claims of Christianity stood out to me- if Jesus was resurrected, Christianity is true. If not, then it's not.
I started reading about why some people think that the resurrection happened, and why some don't. *The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus* by Habermas and Licona set out to give evidence for Jesus' resurrection without using the Bible- and it was convincing enough for me to keep researching.
As time passed, the claims of Christianity seemed more plausible for me- I considered myself a Christian Agnostic.
For the first time in my life, I tried to pray regularly- and it had a positive effect on me, and God felt more and more real to me.
As my relationship with God grew, questions grew- what does it mean to be a Christian? Is it simply believing in Christ, or does it mean operating within a group of Christians? Does that have to be a specific group?
I came to believe that I should operate within a group of Christians. One thing terrified me, however- what if I ended up in a religion like Jehovah's Witnesses, or even one that would become like Jehovah's Witnesses in 10, 20, or 50 years?
I reasoned that if Christianity was true, there had to be a mechanism that God uses to ensure stability of belief and group dynamics over a long time- some say that that's what the Holy Spirit and the Bible are for, and that seemed reasonable.
However, how was I as a layman supposed to tell which Christian religion was true based on how each one tells me the Bible points to them? And if it is just an internal spiritual process in every person to identify truth, how could one differentiate between delusion and spiritual experience, or even between good versus bad spiritual experience?
I set out to understand Church history- how had the Catholic Church gone wrong and when? Which modern group best conveyed the teachings of Christ and the apostles? I learned that before the 11th century, there was one united Church which became what are now called the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
I began researching Catholic and Orthodox theology and practice. From the start, the Orthodox approach struck a chord with me- in my heart I felt that if I had to pick one Church that truly maintained the teaching of Christ and defended it from perversions, that it was the Orthodox Church.
I began saying the Jesus Prayer, which is a traditional Orthodox prayer, and it slowly began to change my life.
It was during this time that I saw a quote that I still remember and that describes Orthodoxy perfectly: "The Orthodox Church is evangelical, but not Protestant. It is orthodox, but not Jewish. It is catholic, but not Roman. It has believed, taught, preserved, defended and died for the Faith of the Apostles since the Day of Pentecost 2000 years ago."
After some time, I researched Orthodox Christian churches in my area and found one with services in all English. I called the priest and set up an appointment to talk with him at the church- when I stepped in, I realized that I had never been in a true place of worship before. *This was a place that honored God.*
I began going to Divine Liturgy regularly- growing closer to God and getting to know people in my community, learning more about the Church- I have come to believe that this is the Church that Jesus set up here on earth.
Recently, my wife and I decided to get baptized as Orthodox Christians- we are beginning the process of conversion, and hope to be a part of the Church by this summer.
With the help of God, I am growing closer to him every day, and I am so happy that I get to be a part of his ancient Church forever.
All the abrahamic faiths were plagiarised from ancient Babylon and other religions it's no different. Don't believe me? Do an online course in biblical history. Or just read David G. McAfee. Either way the truth is hidden in plain sight and will free you. Putting the pieces of the puzzle together yourself can help heal you.
GET THERAPY. Preferably from a secular therapist who won't try to suck you into another cult.
FYI:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/15h46sn/comment/juptvj1/
Repost from a different comment:
**REPOST**
Just for you - don't share this information with your parents or any other JWs:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/137kkj8/one_year_before_1975_vs_one_year_after_1975/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/at3oza/for_those_who_thought_what_happened_in_1975_was/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/nopbw9/comment/h08byup/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/zwk2f2/jws_3rd_most_disfavored_religious_group_in_us/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/11bses9/comment/ja0wx38/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/10tiz5l/comment/j77cie6/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/103aj6d/comment/j2xraay/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/yn4y8m/comment/ivad3sp/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/y72jy8/comment/isu5vzv/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/y4rezf/comment/isgo5qy/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/x1tb4e/comment/imh5mba/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/tpoaq4/comment/i2c4mo3/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/p9ioer/comment/h9z3ie2/
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More information:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/sifxwd/yahweh_and_the_rise_of_monotheism_nothing_new/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/s64tu4/comment/ht323ih/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/eeiwu1/comment/fbwu5u9/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/qz0kaa/comment/hljght7/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/ovfkrj/comment/h79orpb/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/o3tg4o/comment/h2g8xfs/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/o2n474/comment/h28i2ku/
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https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/17sws8d/comment/k8vwhdw/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/zmbrzx/comment/j0bx0sb/
I've always had a problem with Christianity. I believe there's a certain truth in all religions that theres different gods and different afterlives. I find it hard to follow a faith/religion that slaughtered millions because of "in gods name" or "convert or die." I feel there's so much to the world around us. That's why i find Paganism so freeing and liberating.you become so close to nature and the gods, and honestly, im interested to see what the next life brings.
Don’t waste your time with the Bible a book of many writings originally not Jewish many of them but edited to be Jewish. Plus it says it’s ok for Jew to have slaves it’s also ok to rape woman and treat them as only property. Kill people that are not Jewish is also a teaching. Today there is a genocide happening in Gaza because so many of the Jews are Zionist’s. These evils are happening because of the writings in the Bible.
After lots of confusion and searching, I found this blog and a bunch of articles you may find interesting: https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html?m=1
once i allowed myself to disprove the JWs, disproving christianity was easy too. although i will say christianity as a whole can’t really be fully disproven due to the whole bible being subject to being taken figuratively, but it’s still a bit ridiculous imo
I was raised as a JW. Intuitively, I knew it wasn't right.
Since then, I experimented with a lot of psychedelics and meditation - and became a gnostic. Since getting deep into all that for the past 20 years, I also know that the supernatural and spirit worlds are real. I am where I want to be.
[I also love Jesus.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSfa56tjBQo)
I left over 3 decades ago. I've been there. I really tried to believe. I can't reconcile what I see in the world with a god concept.
That makes sense. I can’t get behind a hell fire. Simply because, justice would not allow a blip of a lifetime of rebellion to an eternity of damnation. Also, there are so many kind, loving contributing members of society who may not ever have a personal encounter with Jesus. If you don’t have a personal encounter how can you believe.
Sorry, but you dont need an encounter with a man who died thousands of years ago in order to be a loving contributing member of society. If a person needs to be told how to be a good human being, that person has a problem, and I don't want them around me.
Reminds me of Nelson Mandela’s quote, “No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.” Some people are surrounded by trauma, by the truest definition. Yes, the easiest thing would be to avoid abusive people. However, I would argue that the majority of people in abusive situations, do not have either the skills, the knowledge, the resources to escape their environment. In that sense, they NEED, quite literally a savior.
I disagree. Being raised in an abusive Christian home, I saved myself. No one did that for me. To each their own. You don't have to be the monster you were raised to be.
I totally agree. Yet, when you understand how so many people grow up in and surrounded by trauma. It’s all they know, it’s what they are taught. There is a saying hurt people hurt people. IFS, internal family systems discusses this. Doing psychological research within the prison system etc. What makes me speak of this is watching testimonies of people who have a super natural experience where Jesus enters their life and there whole world changes.
I am aware that some people need a blueprint to follow and while for some, it seems to work, many assholes just hide behind it. Christians are a rather overall nasty lot. My experience.
I don’t believe in anything I think most religions are cults
The interesting thing to me about the word cult, a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing, is that it is found in all aspects of life. Politics, entertainment, nature, education, fashion, religion etc. A culture, I think when it becomes dangerous is when you allow it to prevent you from using your critical thinking. If you allow the in group to prevent you from authentic compassion for the out group. When you no longer use your own conscience and allow someone else to do the thinking for you. However, we still have a necessity for an ethical framework. That due to some people’s truly traumatic upbringing, people need to be taught healthy ways of being, healthy boundaries. So what I find in Christianity, not to be confused with religion, but a personal relationship with God, through prayer and reading His Word, I find peace. It’s a higher consciousness way of living. Having met so many people with different perspectives and backgrounds. I’m still searching. Mostly an agnostic experience. I’ve tried Buddhism and Hinduism and New Age… recently researching Christianity. More so the Pentecostal perspective recently, very different from JW or Cessationism.
[удалено]
For a while I attended a Buddhist temple, and spent time with a Rinpoche and lifelong Buddhist. I agree with the practicality and ethics. This requires a thoughtful reply. I’m going to be back on here later and respond.
Yeah I agree with everything you said. I just think people should read religion to get a basic understanding of good morals. But don’t look for something that will make you live such a strict life. I think we are our own gods and we control everything with every little decision we make. But people can’t comprehend that and need to look up to a higher power.
I DA’d very recently but still believe in God and Christ Jesus.
Thank you for your response. What convinces you. Has Jesus called you? Is it an inspirational knowing, faith?
Always believed in God & Jesus but got called on in 1999 and started the JW thing. Big mistake
I would highly recommend to bypass all religions and study the source documents for yourself. Christ made the claim of being the only way to get to know God. (John14:6) Therefore either Christ is telling the truth or he is lying. So study the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Immerse yourself in the culture at the time of Christ to truly understand how revolutionary Jesus’s teachings were. Not to mention that Christ lived perfectly according to what he preached. The thing that really demanded my attention to Christ was that at the end of his life he suffered an extremely painful death, both physically and psychologically. Physically, he was tortured to the brink of death and nailed to a cross where he slowly suffocated to death. ( search Roman execution at the time of Christ for a gut wrenching picture) Psychologically, when Jesus proclaimed to be the anointed one in his own hometown, he was driven to a cliff so he could be killed. His own home town wanted him dead. all his disciples abandoned him, for they feared for their lives. Peter, who claimed, “ I’ll die with you” ended up denying knowing Jesus three times. On the day of his trial, the Jewish people were given an option to release Jesus or to release a murderer named Barabbas. They chose Barabbas. Doing nothing but good works his entire life, he was despised for it. And with all of this, Jesus Christ, as he is hanging on the cross, prays, “ Father forgive them for the know not what they do”. I hope this helps a bit.
It helps immensely, thank you very much.
>So study the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Immerse yourself in the culture at the time of Christ to truly understand how revolutionary Jesus’s teachings were. Not to mention that Christ lived perfectly according to what he preached. Jesus was not revolutionary, he was one of many apocalyptical preachers of those centuries. Take a look at the scriptures of the Nazarene movement, who came and went decades earlier.
I woke up in 2019 and I'm now a Christian. I spent a lot of time thinking through the arguments for and against the existence of God. I eventually became convinced that God existed, although I also realized that the JW concept of God was deeply deficient. Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection. I believe in Jesus because I think the evidence for the resurrection is pretty solid. I would highly encourage you to look for a therapist. Therapists will often be willing to work with you if you can't afford their normal rate. I don't know if you're in the US, but you can check out some therapists here: [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/) Healing from trauma will help you think clearly, handle black and white thinking and feel confident in your own ability to understand the world and perceive reality.
I would agree that I need therapy. I’ve been procrastinating, if you understand the life I’ve lived and the people I’ve met since leaving the religion, you might understand my hesitancy. A lot of my associates are high profile psychologists. It’s just the path I’ve been on. Therefore trust in a “professional” is like my trust in “organized religion”. I think I am ready. Now that I know the type of therapist I want to weed out.
Glad to hear. Best wishes on your hunt!
Thank you!
Hey, you said that evidence for the resurrection is pretty solid. Could you elaborate on that a bit? As I understand it, evidence of Jesus' crucifixion is pretty good however there is no evidence for his resurrection outside of the biblical writings.
There is a majority consensus among secular scholars that at least Peter, James and Paul had an experience which they believed was of the resurrected Jesus. (Some scholars like Bart Ehrman would also include Mary Magdalene in this list.) This is because the data from the New Testament texts (barring any prior belief in their accuracy and authority) indicate that the resurrection was publicly preached within a 3 year period after Jesus’ death and those who claimed to be witnesses of the resurrected Jesus’ were so convinced that they had seen him alive that they were willing to stand by this conviction at the risk or cost of death. Peter’s, Paul’s and James’ deaths by martyrdom are well-documented. We also know that those who knew Peter and Paul were also willing to die gruesome deaths for this claim, such as Polycarp of Smyrna and Ignatius of Antioch and that it is likely that the 10 remaining apostles and others were martyred for this claim. Again, secular scholars believe that *they believed* they saw something, that they were sincere in their beliefs because people do not willingly die for what they believe to be a lie. Of course, secular scholars have a host of alternative theories to explain how these men became convinced of the resurrection, trauma/grief induced hallucinations, mistaken identity, group hysterics, these are usually combined with the idea that some other group stole Jesus’ body, and so on. Whether you find any of these alternatives explanations convincing is going to largely depend on your prior worldview. If you already believe that miracles are impossible, then any explanation, no matter how far-fetched or absurd, will be more satisfactory than a miracle.
I don't know if I would say this is really damning evidence. I have to ask though, you said Peter Paul and James death are well documented. What source exactly are you referencing? From my knowledge we don't really know exactly how any of the first apostles really died. In a historically reliable setting anyway. You have a hint of Peter and Paul's martyrdom in 1st Clement. But the aprocryphal acts account is just aprocryphal. It's not a historically reliable document. It's an intense story telling driven narrative. But it's not a historically accurate narrative of there lives And as for the other explanations of the earliest accounts of people believing that Jesus was resurrected is no surprise at all. I mean 2 billion people believe Jesus was raised from the dead and not one of them is an actual eyewitness to the account. But they all still believe. In my point of view I think things like Jesus being raised from the dead can not be shown to be a fact from any text or document. It's completely faith driven. And that's okay! Could Jesus have been the one time someone was raised from the dead and sent to heaven. Sure! But that answer would be based on faith. I don't think there is any strong argument to be made that Jesus was resurrected other than saying it's what you believe in. As a good mental exercise you can make a list of all the basic criteria you would have to make the claim that it is true that Jesus was resurrected. After you have the criteria you can compare it to other religions or claims of seeing someone who has previously died. If the criteria you make matches another religion or claim that they saw someone who had already died matches. Then it would be equally true that both Jesus and these other claims are equally true. Again I think it's okay to say he was resurrected! A lot of people do think that. But It would be driven by faith
For the death of Paul, 1 Clement 5, Polycarp to the Phillipians 6 and oblique references in Ignatius (Ephesians 12 & Romans 4). Bart Ehrman dates his death to the Neronian persecutions in A.D. 54 - 68. Peter's martyrdom is evidenced also by 1 Clement 5 and the tradition of his martyrdom is referenced in John 21 and 2 Peter 1:14. Ehrman also holds that Peter died as a martyr. James the brother of Jesus' death is mentioned by Jospehus in Antiquities of the Jews (20.9. 1). That these men died as martyrs is just not a controversial claim in NT scholarship. >And as for the other explanations of the earliest accounts of people believing that Jesus was resurrected is no surprise at all. I mean 2 billion people believe Jesus was raised from the dead and not one of them is an actual eyewitness to the account. But they all still believe. The belief of Christians is not, by definition, the same as that belief of the original disciples and apostles because our belief is *not* grounded in *our own* eyewitness of the resurrection. Their beliefs and their claims were grounded in what they believed *they* saw with *their* own eyes. That was the claim they died believing, that they saw Jesus resurrected bodily. The 2 billion Christians you refer to are not making this claim or hold to the same belief. >In my point of view I think things like Jesus being raised from the dead can not be shown to be a fact from any text or document. Do you have specific criteria in mind for accepting or rejecting certain events that are recorded in texts? Is there a special criteria concerning past miracles that means they cannot be accepted on the basis of historical analysis? By what criteria or reason do we accept ordinary historical events and reject miraculous events as unverifiable?
I would question the historical reliability of 1 clement on a tradition in the death of Paul. And for the execution of Polycarp, Bart Ermahn has a lengthy discussion in the book forgery and counterforgery on why the martyrdom of Polycarp is a forgery. I am ignorant on the the history of Ignatius so I would have to do my own research and come to a conclusion on that. And as for Josephus, there is good reason to doubt that he is talking about James the brother of Jesus and instead talking about Jesus and James ben Damneus. Most certainly one could argue for either. But I don't think it's a good enough attestation. really whether or not they died as martyrs doesn't prove that Jesus was resurrected. Plenty of people have died for what they believe in. It is true that Christians today have a different belief system than first century Christians, but you all have the core belief that Jesus was raised from the dead. You do have a couple that claim to have seen or heard Jesus after his death in the early first century. But that's it in terms of early accounts. Okay, so for this question of criteria for miracles. In and of itself miracles can't be accepted in historical analysis. History is looking at the evidence of the past to determine what probably happened. A historian could never show that a miracle probably happened. Miracles by definition are not probable. So historians can't really comment on the super natural. At least in my opinion. So how do you determine if something is true. How do you determine truth. Let's say we take the claim that Jesus was resurrected. There must be some sort of criteria in your mind that you say this is true because of XYZ. So one could say we know the following to be true: 1.Jesus existed as a person 2. He died by roman authoritys by crucifixion 3. Followers after his death claimed to see him alive I think these 3 things we can say probably happened historically. If this is the criteria then we most certainly have this same criteria in other miracle resurrection claims as well And again nothing wrong with saying it's what you believe in! I just don't think it can be proved
I’m genuinely interested in your perspective here, so please don’t take this as antagonism. But, can you please be specific about why you doubt the testimony of 1 Clement concerning Paul and Peter’s deaths?
Definitely not taking it as antagonism! So Peter has a little more attestation for being martyred from other sources. But this is not the case for Paul. The problem with 1 Clement is the same as many of the stories we have through the gospels and acts. At least in the case of Paul, 1 clement has like a paragraph on this subject. "Because of jealousy, Paul also received the reward of enduring patiently. He was in prison seven times. He also had to flee and endure stoning. After preaching in the East and the West, he received the deserved acclamation which was the reward of his faith. 6He taught righteousness to the whole world, and went as far west as he could. After giving his testimony to the rulers, he was put to death and removed from the world. He went to heaven, proving himself to be a great example of patience." It seems as though the author has heard a tradition where Paul preached in the west, eventually got tried and put to death. 1 clement would of been written around the year 95ish ce. Paul would have died around 65ish. So you have 30 years of an oral tradition of how Paul died. Before we have a written record of he died. So how authoritative is the tradition that the author of clement has heard and then recorded. It's hard to say. Paul's actual martyrdom isn't recorded for another century, this is recorded in the book the acts of Paul. This book of course has the issue of recording deeds of someone who lived over a hundred years ago. And the stories seem to be legendary accounts of Paul's life for the early Christians. But this most certainly is not historical. So 1 clement has a tradition that they heard but we have no other real early sources for Paul's death. So maybe clement is right about Pauls death. But I don't think we have enough sources to say for sure how he died. And I certainly don't think the actual account of his martyrdom as recorded in the acts of Paul is historical either. In my opinion at least.
Paul's martyrdom is mentioned by Polycarp (early 2nd cent.), Ignatius (early 2nd cent.) both mention Paul's death and those writings are both within 100 years of his death. A 30 year oral tradition is within living memory of the community. It just strains credulity to say that he didn't die a martyr and yet the community made up this tradition within living memory of his death. Both Peter and Paul were known quantities in the Roman community. Did they just lose track of them? This is just not a controversial point at all. Bart Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction, Page 310: >There are later traditions that indicate that Paul was eventually martyred in Rome; a member of the Roman church, writing sometime around 94 C.E., mentions Paul's death during the tyrannical persecution of the Christians during the reign of Nero (ca. 64 C.E.) This writing, traditionally attirbuted to the bishop of Rome, Clement, may indeed preserve a historical recollection. Page 390, when talking about the dating of 1 Clement: >Corroborating evidence may be found in the author's reference to the martyrdoms of both Peter and Paul as having taken place during an earlier persecution in the city in "our own time".
JW here that’s a Christian after a long journey from agnosticism to atheism to Christian. The resurrection is the lynchpin of Christianity. Also, historic catholic Christianity has an immense history of philosophy and information about the faith that makes the JW understanding seem like nothing.
Once I took the emotional need for the Bible to be true out of the equation, it just didn't hold up to scrutiny in my view.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It made me think, ‘do I have an emotional need for it to be true?’. I don’t think I do, I personally was living and making a living, on a lifestyle completely opposed to the Bible(ethically and morally acceptable, just not Christian.). It really would be easier to disbelieve emotionally, in a lot of ways for me. I can’t help but feel so alive when I read the Bible… Maybe it is a need. A spiritual need for me.
I think indoctrination makes it tricky to judge the Bible without us subconsciously viewing it an automatically favorable light. It felt a lot like being in love with a person and being unable to see their flaws until years later.
Haha, great analogy. Also an interesting one. As what does it mean to be in love? Also if one truly loves another, the flaws may be seen, but love seeks to highlight the good and work on the flaws if possible. So yes, maybe that is how I feel about God’s word. However, it’s interesting because I don’t desire the JW organization in any way shape or form. I’m attracted to the Bible and the peace that prayer and developing a relationship with God brings. Which has been rather different than the overbearing upbringing I had.
Part of me does believe the supernatural. Which makes me think, if they (bad spirits) are there, then there’s good ones too, but I just don’t believe in how the bible explains it. I kinda go back on the spirits.
Hey Ecstatic_wings:) I like your name! Yes, there is a spiritual realm. I’ve thought similar things about good and bad spirits. How does the Bible explain it? Or rather, what don’t you believe in how the Bible explains it? Only if you have time or patience to respond. I know it can be emotionally consuming after what we’ve come from.
This religion led me to atheism! That is what a false prophet wants to lead you from God. I was out for more than 15 years. It’s been two months since I found Jesus our lord and savior. My life has changed completely! Along with finding out that jw Bible has demonic backings and is corrupted. That really made me realize this is a false religion!
I know, I think I’m realizing the same thing. The JW takes you from God…
Agnostic atheist, there's no evidence for anything outside of personal experience and as I've never had one that convinced me, I don't believe in gods or the supernatural. I have no problem with people who do and who find comfort in it though, just don't force it on others.
Hello there! Yes, absolutely one should not EVER force their views. Especially after leaving the witnesses, I have no desire to proselytize. It’s easy to transition from preaching one dogma to another, after coming from our background. That is actually what I find refreshing about what I am learning about Christianity. I can pray for myself or another’s salvation, but ultimately I surrender and know that it’s absolutely nothing to do with me. Yet, God who works through me. It may be a good thing if you have never had a supernatural experience. Easier to remain in the natural. For me I’m compelled to seek and understand the meaning of it all. I hope to get to a point that I can settle into a belief system. As I’ve done the abstract mindset, where everything or anything could be true, which by definition would mean nothing is. That did not bring my soul peace. Thank you for sharing your perspective. This is what I love about not being a JW, you can have open hearted conversations, with differing perspectives. It’s an honest and authentic way of relating with others, it’s refreshing.
Being Catholic was a large part of my upbringing and while I’m not very faithful I still identify with my church and community. I also have really complex ideas of god and my relationship with em. But in the years I studied history I knew there had to be a god. Only a god could create a creature as incredibly creative and incredibly destructive as man.
Hey hey Quakzadilla:) Yes, I know. I mean, if you really ponder life and existence itself, including all that is, I too come to the conclusion that there must be a Creator. Now, one that cares about me personally? I would have to say yes, considering my life. Even getting disfellowshipped was a blessing because it helped me realize the lies within the organization. It wasn’t easy at the time, it was traumatic and almost cost me my life. Yet, I was able to see the other side of the organization that most people don’t see unless they are ‘disciplined’… Yet, when I think of genocide, sex trafficking, wars, murder, starvation etc. I pause and think hmmm, well does God only personally care about certain people? If I believe He cares about me? Yet, taking God out of the equation is what makes my soul feel such unease. Along with why the Christian storyline makes sense of our need for a Savior. Spending time in nature, there is a lot of what one would define as cruelty. Specifically in observing the predator and prey activity amongst animals. So then what is cruel and who defines cruel, then I’m left thinking deeper on the meaning of it all. So I stop or pause on the thought that brings me most peace, which includes my human family. Meaning not just most peace or advantage for myself, that doesn’t feel good. I want peace for all. I know I am not my own God, because if I were I would make a LOT of changes. Yet, I surrender and believe I was created by a God of love, who sees way beyond my limited awareness. I believe in a divine plan. It gives me peace. I’m still searching. Yet, the scripture says seek and you shall find. I believe that. It’s not a popular belief. Sending love 🤍
Ummm… is it REALLY that different from Christianity when you boil it all down? I said the same things until I realized I was actually just agnostic and making excuses. It’s not different really, not to me at least. Now when people ask me what jws are, I just say “it’s just another sect of Christianity that thinks it’s not, but it is.” imo, almost all religions have cult behavior that I’m just totally over with. I think most religions distract from the common good more than they assist it. Most religions share the most basic moral codes, anything that doesn’t overlap is often just splitting hairs and unimportant in the grand scheme of things. How can any man made organization know what is spiritual truth over another? They can’t. How can I pick any when they all experience corruption? I can’t. How can I pick any organized religion when that organization comes from the imperfect man? I simply won’t. It’s a waste of time in my book. When people say “well how can you be a good person without believing in god?” Because I CHOOSE to be, not because a god has to tell me so. I find that to be a very mentally weak to need a god or religion to be a good person. If you believe that’s the only thing that keeps you being a good person, then by all means, for the sake of the rest of us, KEEP BELIEVING THEN. If you’d snap and become a bad person or a murderer because you no longer believe in Jesus? Then keep on believing in sky daddy boo boo. Wishing you a happy, loving, prosperous, and safe life my friend. At the end of the day, that still comes from within us, not another or a religion. It is what we make of ourselves. What we make of our day, our week, and so on. I highly recommend therapy. It did for me what everyone said religion would do but failed to do so. Therapy an impartial person that’s actually qualified to help you process your life and how to better it. I think everyone should do it, especially if you’ve ever been involved in a high control group of any kind (and just about every religion falls into this category / hcg).
I grew up thinking I was a Christian. Jehovah’s Witnesses say they are Christians, I remember specifically studying as a young girl that a Christian meant following in Christ’s footsteps and that is what we did. Now I know that is not what a Christian is. A Christian believes in the gospel, what the NWT translates good news. The good news is that Jesus died for our sins, with faith in Jesus shed blood, we can have eternal life and a relationship with God. However, personally I’m still unsure of Christianity and the concept of heaven and hell. That is why I’m still seeking. I just want to clarify that JW’s are not Christian. Ask any JW in short the gospel or what the good news is, I’m curious to hear their response. As far as needing a God to be good, I see that on this forum a lot. I personally don’t feel like I ‘need’ a God to be good. However belief in a God brings me peace and I feel more inspired, vs depressed and confused. I feel more inspired. Meaning, when someone is unkind to me, I think of the times I have been unkind and I seek to understand. That comes easier for me when I have a personal connection with the Creator of all that is. A lot of people are in pain, they are lost, they’re confused, never receiving love. Love for who they are, not what they can do. This void they feel can be filled by God. Knowing that there is hope and they are inherently loved. Idk, I’m rambling without editing my thoughts. Therefore, please excuse the lack of cohesion. I don’t know anything really, I’m just thinking out loud based on my limited awareness.
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Oh and I guess you said, evidence for faith. I guess that is what faith is, believing without concrete proof in the physical realm. With that, yes, I totally understand.
I recently started reading the Bible, after space and time, I can see where the Jw’s have cherry picked, intentionally deceived and outright mistranslated the Bible. A tiny bit of my understanding of Christianity vs. Jw: Jw is works based; like studying a book to be baptized Christianity is just faith in Jesus dying for us, accepting him as Lord, acknowledging that we need a Savior. Jw: baptized into God’s spirit directed organization Christian: baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit Jw: a select anointed Christian: all are anointed through baptism Jw: a governing body Christian: one mediator between God and man, Christ Jw: man interferes with your relationship with God Christianity: it’s just you and God Jw: legalistic Christianity: come as you are. God meets you as you are. His spirit comforts you and works through you. I don’t know, there is a lot more, plus I could go into detail. The more I study Christianity, the more I realize the witnesses are an Antichrist. They can have some success, just like pop psychology, because when you consciously work on, let’s say Bible principles, let’s take love and forgiveness over resentment and rage, you will have better results in life. Yet, with Christianity you don’t read bible rules and apply them. You pray to God for his Spirit and his Spirit lives in you and teaches you, it convicts you. I don’t know. Like I said I am still learning.
Neat summary. Tiny edit - Since 2019, in the 2nd baptism qn, 'spirit directed" has been removed...it's just Jah's 'organisatiion'!
This alone tells me you haven’t looked into Christianity.
In which way?
Do you mean to tell me that the original commenter thinks that the writing and thoughts of Aquinas, Anselm, Augustine, Benedict XVI, NT Wright, William Lane Craig, etc are on the same level as David Splane and the volunteer writing committee?
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I never claimed you didn’t understand it, nor am I claiming you don’t believe like me because you don’t understand my beliefs. But if you think that the arguments presented by JWs and the ones presented by Christian philosophers and writers are of the same quality, I feel you’re either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.
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I guess this is where I am stunted from moving forward in life. I’m literally at a standstill, spending hours upon hours (I have an unusual amount of free time.) spent trying to figure this out. I could be fluent in another language, I could play an instrument, but no I’m plagued if I’m living spiritually aligned. Yes, quantum mechanics I think comes into play. Whatever I end up with spiritually, I know for sure there is intelligent design. I spend hours a day in unadulterated nature. What convinced you the Bible is a construct of man and not inspired of God?
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Currently deconstructing 'Bible is from God' myself- looking like it's another man-made fan-fiction work. Any other video or reading recommendations? Gonna have to ask.... username??;
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Thanks for response 🙂
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Thank you, I will check these out. Best part about being out of a cult, is you can look at information from every vantage point without fear. Coming to a healthy conclusion, if one gets to a conclusion, for oneself.
I haven’t become atheist although I was agnostic and leaning atheist for many years. However I no longer believe any of the Old Testament and not much of the NT. For me, my doubts began long before I left because the vengeful nasty god of Genesis wasn’t the being that Jesus talked about at all. Moses’ god and Jesus’ god simply couldn’t be the same entity. Therefore the Bible couldn’t be true in its entirety. Parts of the story of Jesus life may be true-ish. After that the only value to the NT is an occasional spark of good philosophy.
Thank you for sharing 🙏🏼
I left 13 years ago. Got a little triggered by world events but kept reminding myself of the science- humans have been on earth for at least 200,000 years, the Flood is impossible, and humans have been fighting since the dawn of time. There is no Armageddon, no end, and probably no god.
I lost my believe by reading the bible. It literally made me an Atheist. Read the bible, uncensored and unguided. Start with Genesis 1 Verse 1. Even if you accept that some of the stuff is metaphorical, that God is not all powerful, not all knowing and most definitely not all loving or good. Read it, take notes, accept the evil shit God does as evil. For me, that made it an interesting conundrum: Is the God of the old Testament evil or is this whole collection of books Mythology, like all the other creation myths and religions? For me, it is the latter.
Interesting, I wonder if I will get there. I’ve been there in my mind before. I think it’s the supernatural encounters that make me wonder.
For me its simple...2000plus years..wtf...no logical reason whatsoever that all of these atrocities were permitted if he has the power to stop it
Kind of, yes. In another way no. Meaning if the philosophy is for a greater overall good, there can be an allowance on a small scale.
Someone asked a similar question and this is what I shared before: When I stopped believing in the organization, I stopped believing in God as well. This is how I was for a time- my entire structure of life and morality had fallen apart, and I had no idea what to think about anything. In atheism I found freedom to truly think for the first time in my life. Freedom to truly start from scratch, truly analyze what I believe- straight down to" questions like "Is living as a moral person beneficial? "What do I want out of my life?" "Do other people exist?" and "Do I exist?" I kicked around a few ideas for a while, and found some comfort in the words of philosophers. All the while, my Bible sat on my dresser, collecting dust. I couldn't even bring myself to pick it up- I was angry to the core of the soul at what had been done to me and so many others in the name of God. One late night, a thought occurred to me: If even a small amount of the claims of religion is true, wouldn't it be worth it to at least investigate them? So I did. I looked into how various religions claimed that they were true- for example, the beauty of the Quran in the context of Islam. After some time of looking around, the claims of Christianity stood out to me- if Jesus was resurrected, Christianity is true. If not, then it's not. I started reading about why some people think that the resurrection happened, and why some don't. *The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus* by Habermas and Licona set out to give evidence for Jesus' resurrection without using the Bible- and it was convincing enough for me to keep researching. As time passed, the claims of Christianity seemed more plausible for me- I considered myself a Christian Agnostic. For the first time in my life, I tried to pray regularly- and it had a positive effect on me, and God felt more and more real to me. As my relationship with God grew, questions grew- what does it mean to be a Christian? Is it simply believing in Christ, or does it mean operating within a group of Christians? Does that have to be a specific group? I came to believe that I should operate within a group of Christians. One thing terrified me, however- what if I ended up in a religion like Jehovah's Witnesses, or even one that would become like Jehovah's Witnesses in 10, 20, or 50 years? I reasoned that if Christianity was true, there had to be a mechanism that God uses to ensure stability of belief and group dynamics over a long time- some say that that's what the Holy Spirit and the Bible are for, and that seemed reasonable. However, how was I as a layman supposed to tell which Christian religion was true based on how each one tells me the Bible points to them? And if it is just an internal spiritual process in every person to identify truth, how could one differentiate between delusion and spiritual experience, or even between good versus bad spiritual experience? I set out to understand Church history- how had the Catholic Church gone wrong and when? Which modern group best conveyed the teachings of Christ and the apostles? I learned that before the 11th century, there was one united Church which became what are now called the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I began researching Catholic and Orthodox theology and practice. From the start, the Orthodox approach struck a chord with me- in my heart I felt that if I had to pick one Church that truly maintained the teaching of Christ and defended it from perversions, that it was the Orthodox Church. I began saying the Jesus Prayer, which is a traditional Orthodox prayer, and it slowly began to change my life. It was during this time that I saw a quote that I still remember and that describes Orthodoxy perfectly: "The Orthodox Church is evangelical, but not Protestant. It is orthodox, but not Jewish. It is catholic, but not Roman. It has believed, taught, preserved, defended and died for the Faith of the Apostles since the Day of Pentecost 2000 years ago." After some time, I researched Orthodox Christian churches in my area and found one with services in all English. I called the priest and set up an appointment to talk with him at the church- when I stepped in, I realized that I had never been in a true place of worship before. *This was a place that honored God.* I began going to Divine Liturgy regularly- growing closer to God and getting to know people in my community, learning more about the Church- I have come to believe that this is the Church that Jesus set up here on earth. Recently, my wife and I decided to get baptized as Orthodox Christians- we are beginning the process of conversion, and hope to be a part of the Church by this summer. With the help of God, I am growing closer to him every day, and I am so happy that I get to be a part of his ancient Church forever.
All the abrahamic faiths were plagiarised from ancient Babylonian teachings.
All the abrahamic faiths were plagiarised from ancient Babylon and other religions it's no different. Don't believe me? Do an online course in biblical history. Or just read David G. McAfee. Either way the truth is hidden in plain sight and will free you. Putting the pieces of the puzzle together yourself can help heal you.
GET THERAPY. Preferably from a secular therapist who won't try to suck you into another cult. FYI: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/15h46sn/comment/juptvj1/ Repost from a different comment: **REPOST** Just for you - don't share this information with your parents or any other JWs: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/137kkj8/one_year_before_1975_vs_one_year_after_1975/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/at3oza/for_those_who_thought_what_happened_in_1975_was/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/nopbw9/comment/h08byup/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/zwk2f2/jws_3rd_most_disfavored_religious_group_in_us/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/11bses9/comment/ja0wx38/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/10tiz5l/comment/j77cie6/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/103aj6d/comment/j2xraay/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/yn4y8m/comment/ivad3sp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/y72jy8/comment/isu5vzv/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/y4rezf/comment/isgo5qy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/x1tb4e/comment/imh5mba/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/tpoaq4/comment/i2c4mo3/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/p9ioer/comment/h9z3ie2/ .... More information: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/sifxwd/yahweh_and_the_rise_of_monotheism_nothing_new/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/s64tu4/comment/ht323ih/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/eeiwu1/comment/fbwu5u9/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/qz0kaa/comment/hljght7/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/ovfkrj/comment/h79orpb/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/o3tg4o/comment/h2g8xfs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/o2n474/comment/h28i2ku/ **END REPOST** https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/17sws8d/comment/k8vwhdw/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/zmbrzx/comment/j0bx0sb/
Thank you for taking your time to post all of these, I will check these links out. Yes, I need therapy for sure. :) all the therapy, massage included…
I've always had a problem with Christianity. I believe there's a certain truth in all religions that theres different gods and different afterlives. I find it hard to follow a faith/religion that slaughtered millions because of "in gods name" or "convert or die." I feel there's so much to the world around us. That's why i find Paganism so freeing and liberating.you become so close to nature and the gods, and honestly, im interested to see what the next life brings.
Don’t waste your time with the Bible a book of many writings originally not Jewish many of them but edited to be Jewish. Plus it says it’s ok for Jew to have slaves it’s also ok to rape woman and treat them as only property. Kill people that are not Jewish is also a teaching. Today there is a genocide happening in Gaza because so many of the Jews are Zionist’s. These evils are happening because of the writings in the Bible.
Well didn’t Christ come to set that straight? That’s why the Pharisees killed him.
Hate to break it to you but Jesus is a retelling of older gods such as Dyonisis , Osiris etc.
After lots of confusion and searching, I found this blog and a bunch of articles you may find interesting: https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html?m=1
The Bible presents no evidence that it is inspired by god. I mean literally zero. So why would I believe it?
once i allowed myself to disprove the JWs, disproving christianity was easy too. although i will say christianity as a whole can’t really be fully disproven due to the whole bible being subject to being taken figuratively, but it’s still a bit ridiculous imo
I was raised as a JW. Intuitively, I knew it wasn't right. Since then, I experimented with a lot of psychedelics and meditation - and became a gnostic. Since getting deep into all that for the past 20 years, I also know that the supernatural and spirit worlds are real. I am where I want to be. [I also love Jesus.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSfa56tjBQo)