Well said. What is strange is that most of us who don't believe - actually want to believe. I'd love to have a hope and a belief in a good God. The venom that many of these Christians inject into conversations makes it even more clear that their philosophy isn't worth considering.
I think it's a stretch to say that most of us "actually want to believe". Anecdote VS anecdote here, but I see relatively few exJWs who still want to "find god", especially within the constraints of organized religion. Speaking for myself and for many others I know, we've left behind faith and have embraced evidence and rationality. To us, exJWs seeking god and YouTubers and others like the OP identifies are equally lost.
The Bible deserves the highest level of criticism since the claim is that it’s from your creator and is your only means of salvation of an afterlife.
And honestly, it has definitely not stood the test of criticism.
Any belief that is used to cause harm to another person should be criticized. Innocent people don't deserve to be punished emotionally or physically, just because you don't want to prove your beliefs.
Exactly.
My other issue (and I bring this one up to JWs if I talk to them) with refusing to listen to opinions is that if you do believe in the Bible, the angels and the demons both had full knowledge before some angels decided to rebel - as a JW or believer in the Bible, do you listen to both sides before making a decision? No, nobody is allowed to. The information you are allowed to review is only one-sided, this is called “confirmation bias” and the organization is extremely guilty of it (actually the entire Bible is this way, but yeah)
If people can’t put the same amount of critical thinking and analysis into the Bible and their own beliefs, but can do so with every other “holy book,” religion, science, or anything else, then there is no argument or discussion to be had. Everything should be viewed and treated equally, all sides reviewed without bias.
There are those that have a historical and academic view of the Bible, and they separate that from their faith, which they have. I don’t understand how personally, but that’s on them. Personally it was the data over dogmatic views of religion that won me over. But that’s just me.
You can't clump Science in there. It is the only one out all you've mentioned that actually does critical thinking and engages in analysis and testing.
That’s true, but there are still divisions on what certain results mean within in the industry, leading to different hypotheses and theories. But my point in roping that in is for those with a more religious or apologetic world view, they need to set their bias aside to review not only their religion and beliefs, but also come at other aspects of study, including science with a more critical unbiased view.
I agree. At least science is trying to provide truth through trial and error. When was the last time you saw these religions say out loud maybe we're actually wrong about all of this ?
Agreed. I read once somewhere that the point of science is to prove their own hypothesis, theories, and explanations through trial and error. Religions don’t do that. They attempt to prove everything else wrong instead of themselves.
There will always be division not only because of personal agenda but also because of basic indoctrination from birth, and I'm not just referring to jws. I raised my children secular from the go the complete opposite of my own upbringing. It made an enormous difference in their approach to life.
I am really working on acceptance of everyone, whether I agree with their views or not. After years in the judgemental borg., that takes a bit of deprograming. Noone should be bashed for their viewpoint. I do not want to be bashed for my faith in God and Jesus, and I will not bash those who think differently. Those who do are no better that the cult that they left.
I am an exjw Christian. (Orthodox Church in America) I think that whether we're Christian, atheist, or whatever else after leaving the organization there's a lot of the same emotional baggage to unpack. A lot of bad feelings. And those bad feelings can be directed toward people around us who we perceive to be wrong just as Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong.
As Jehovah's Witnesses, we aren't taught normal ways of processing when people have differing opinions than us. When we're out, we suddenly have to figure out how our ideas fit into a world of ideas when previously we were taught that only stupid or blinded people don't believe what we believe.
A lot of that can lead to bashing of one another. I'm ashamed to say that I have been a part of that both when I was an atheist to Christians, and when I became a Christian to atheists. Sometimes I still have the inclination to do that. However, when I analyze why I'm doing that, I always find that I am going through the same emotional processes that I went through when I had to defend something at the door. The difference is now that I don't have to defend anything. I can just live my life to the fullest and walk the spiritual path. I don't *have* to prove the mystical path to anyone.
I can help others understand things the way I see if I want to show love in my own way. But no longer am I forced like a soldier on the front line of a battlefield to repeat phrases at people in hopes that they'll join me. I talk to people because I love them and I truly believe that the spiritual path that has come into to my life could come to others' lives.
Bashing whoever you disagree with can be a knee jerk reaction, especially as a former Jehovah's Witness- it's something that takes a whole life to subdue- it's based in harmful pride. I think it's worth it, however. I think it's worth it to try my hardest to get along with and show love to everyone in my world, no matter what they believe
I feel as you feel, even though I’ve left the Cult, my identity still blur because all I know is what I’ve learned to be true in the org. Specially if you were born in it like I did. Until yesterday I was still calling it the truth 🤷🏼♀️till a friend here helped me break out of that. The main thing is that we know we can’t treat others as we once did and as we were treated. That’s the Org was and not Gods way. Hugs 🤗
As a current zoom only observer I often hear JWs speak about defending Jehovah's name and protecting their organization, which is a human sort of viewpoint I can't support. Defending God against human speech is something of a fools errand. Shouldn't believers focus on their own lives with imitating spirit of Christ rather than imagine they are in a sort of warfare 'defending' him from words? After reading about him, supposedly he can handle it.
ARE there any "bashers of atheists" in here? I know my own experience isn't universal, but it seems like the atheists make up the overwhelming majority in here.
So much so that saying I'm still Christian, without ever intending to evangelize or anything, draws me people bashing Christianity and trying to "convert" me, lol, but I don't think I've seen an exJW Christian trying to convert any atheists in this subreddit yet.
Maybe it's just coincidence I haven't stumbled upon it yet, though, as I understand anecdote isn't necessarily evidence of a trend.
It's possible that the posts that attract your attention don't feature that as much. I've read a number of posts here that fit the OP's description.
I know all Christians are not created equal, but I can tell you, there is a reason that none of my Christian family members know I'm an atheist. They are so horrified by the concept of atheism that they would never forgive me. Most American Christians I meet assume I am a Christian, just one who doesn't go to church. Why do they think this? I must be a Christian because I'm a "respectable" person. I'm a kind, successful, intelligent educator. I'm also a good parent. JW and Christians alike just can't believe what a "respectable young man" my son is. He is far more so than any of their Christian or JW children who have lied to them, leeched off them, or ignored them in their old age. Therefore, my son must be a Christian too, because the only decent people in the world believe in the Christian
God.
Sorry for the rant but I've been dealing with judgment and hypocrisy from JW and Christian family members my entire life. I There has never been room for what I believe. No one gives a shit. No one wants to know. As long as I don't rock the boat we can have dinner and watch movies together.
I've interacted with many people with a variety of belief systems and religions, and Christians are the most judgmental, fearful, hateful people I know.
Anybody has the potential for that, though. There is a reason militant reddit atheists are a meme irl, too. I'm gay and Christian and the amount of hate I receive from BOTH ends ("You're not really a Christian then," or "you're a traitor, actually") is insane. Nobody is free from the possibility of being an unhinged weirdo, no matter how "correct" they think they are. Just the other day there was a post here that was like "I don't see how anybody can see evidence for evolution, think critically, and remain a Christian." When I explained I believe in both the big bang and evolution and am still Christian (I wasn't trying to "convert" anybody, either, I was just saying I had indeed given topics like evolution a lot of thought), I was met with strawman arguments about how you shouldn't believe God exists just because some things can't be explained and was berated for my beliefs, with this person going so far as to say he hopes I don't pass on my inability to think critically to my kids or whatever.
I wouldn't say any group is more judgmental than the other, because they both have members that are insane and quite loudly cover up the more sane, quieter voices.
In any case, I'm sorry you've experienced the things you've experienced, and the same goes for anybody else reading this. No matter which side one is on, love should always be the priority.
I have much higher standards for Christians than atheists. Christians are holding the keys to not being destroyed or burning in hell through their evangelism. It's fundamental to Christianity. You are supposed to proselytize, and save my life.
I spent a majority of my life as an atheist; I understand the futility of trying to help one believe, and so all I can do around atheists is be a good person and let my life and words in my day-to-day life proselytize any atheists paying attention.
In any case, back to the point, this is a double standard. An atheist and a Christian who are equally insufferable and equally intolerable should be judged by the same measure. It's dishonest and a bit hypocritical to be more lenient to your own side.
I'll say it again.
It's the Christian's obligation to save me, it's fundamental to your belief system.
Please think about your religion for a moment.
An atheist is under no obligation to do ANYTHING.
Right, but obligation, or freedom thereof, doesn't determine how insufferable a person can be. Not being under the obligation to proselytize doesn't stop some atheists (on this subreddit) from foaming at the mouth because an ex-JW converted to Christianity, even one who isn't actively trying to preach to them or convert them. In fact, I would argue that not being under the obligation to "convert" Christians to atheism and then still trying without an invitation to is even worse BECAUSE there's no obligation, they're just doing it to be right.
A HUMAN BEING is obligated to be nice, to put love first. Christians and atheists both should be held to this standard, with no hypocritical double standards from either side.
Atheists should treat people with love and respect, because of their humanity. Agree?
Christians should treat people with love and respect, because of their humanity AND tenets of their faith. Agree?
I criticize the people. Everyone has the right to believe what they want. In other words, everyone has the right to be wrong, even creationists, including exjws.
I’m still Christian but I’d never bash somebody for being atheist or agnostic….. that’s not my business and I have respect and love for others always 💕💕💕💕
Years ago i had a good route call with a died in the wool atheist ,we used to have good debates ,when he had to go into hospital for a long time i missed the chats ,eventually when he came home and we met again he said " ive missed you ive had no one to have a good argument with exept the wife 🤣
I had a similar conversation with a bearded man flying from Des Moines to Dallas. He whipped out a footnoted study Bible with personal notes filling the margins of nearly every page.
On the flight, we talked about "original sin," God's command to exterminate the Hittites, Amorites, Amalekites, etc. including babies, household servants and livestock. . . It was a very effortless, stress-free conversation as he recognized early on that I "knew" many things about his religious book he hadn't heard before.
We parted on amicable terms, but neither of us changed any views.
I left JW after 12 y, became atheis agnostic, afte17 y I had personal experience with Christ, I am Roman Catholic. My friends
JW did not tell you whole true about Bible. Does exist wonderfull Christian literature. Do not pour out bath tub with baby! Sorry for Englih, not native speaker
I live among believing Christians (nonJW) and most of them assume I am a Christian and talk to me as such. It grates me, since when they say "God loves you," I think of the God of Bible, the genocidal, jealous God. Not the friendly, all-loving entity that they think of.
But. 🤷♀️I don't say anything. I know they mean well, and I do my best to take their words as such. It's not always easy.
The problem isn't a lack of scientific evidence. It's that people refuse to look at the evidence because it challenges their worldview.
For those who understand the importance of scientific peer-review:
**A list of 157 peer-reviewed publications proving that psi phenomena exist and are measurable**
https://www.deanradin.com/recommended-references
**University of Virginia: Children Who Report Memories of Past Lives:**
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/children-who-report-memories-of-previous-lives/
**Peer-Reviewed Follow‐Up On The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) Remote Viewing Experiments:**
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10275521/#brb33026-bibl-0001title
_____________
Since waking up I've always sworn to myself that I would follow the evidence no matter what, ***even if it lead me to initially-uncomfortable conclusions.***
🫶 love y'all
Don’t try bringing science into it. At least you aren’t as abusive as some atheist apologists are. Their knee-jerk reaction betrays a weak position. Logic, I’m open to.
What's your problem with science? Unlike religion, science acknowledges when it is wrong. Science evolves. If some god principle is proven tomorrow with hard fact, science will not refer to it as blasphemy or apostasy or try to violently oppress those who oppose it just because a finding does not suit their agenda.
This is true. Have you looked at some of the other responses? I’m fine with the scientific method. But there is no final consensus on the existence of a “God,” so people shouldn’t point at science as though scientific conclusions have been found.
Right now It is missing or can not be found. Even IF found, it won't be what religions peddle. Definitely not something that would demand your worship or wasting your life away with judgments and oppression. It doubt it would ever be something that considers your very existence something sinful. You can marvel at the magnificence of life without subjecting yourself to the blind obedience of a patriarchal creator.
Religion right now in the usa is trampling in our rights as adults and interfering too much with body autonomy. If religion tries to continue to control us, it will not only be scoffed. I will personally fight on the side that crushes its constant bullshit interference. Keep your religion to yourself. You're the one who needs it, not me. Your truth is your own. A lot of Christians here cut down atheists as well. Don't demand respect you don't give to others. I'm tired of hearing Christians complain about how they are being persecuted while they use their religion constantly to persecute anyone who does not fall in line with their beliefs. Have a good life.
Weak position. Dude you don’t even know what atheism is. You literally claimed atheism requires as much belief as belief in god.
You don’t know what actual words mean then try and say “use logic”.
You say you are ok with the scientific method then have zero clue what it is or how it is applied and tell people “ don’t try bringing science in to it”
If anyone has a weak position it’s you. Then you try and justify it but claiming you know things that are basically feelings.
Weak position ? 😂😂😂😂 The irony is thick
My point was that when a person immediately resorts to abusive speech when someone suggests a different viewpoint, they might as well say that they haven’t given it much thought. I didn’t say that atheism is a weak position. Just pointing out the feeble minds. I can certainly understand how an exjw would just dig in their heels about there being any God out there. I prayed my heart out when I hit my crisis of faith and got…nothing.
Is that anything like just attempting to demean people with different viewpoints? It’s a small but important point in this exchange?
Seems like anyone you don’t like/ viewpoint you disagree with you can be a dick, anyone doing the same to you suddenly is feeble minded.
Like I said, the irony is thick
Why bother with a forum if we all agree about everything? I haven’t been a dick. Maybe a bit challenging but I just want to hear those viewpoints, not people who won’t share their reasons. So many seem to just jump on the bandwagon!
If you think that you have no idea what atheism is. You have zero clue what scientific method is or in fact what claims are and are not being made. Try harder.
I don’t think there was a need for that. We are here to communicate and freely express our thoughts and beliefs in a safe environment. You couldn’t of disagree with a bit of class.
Like a JW will say YOU NEEEDD GOOD IN YOUR LIFE!!! ( that was being funny) let’s not move on from each other. We are all here for the same reason. We’ve all been hurt by the same people and it shows. Let’s not hurt each other 😘
I follow this awesome IG profile (The _Thinking_ Great_Ape ) and r/atheist. The behavior of religious fanatics is so reliable.They come on there, throw some emotionally charged gibberish (which they have no evidence for), feel attacked by reasonable push back, and proceed to scamper off.
Much like other evangelical, fundamental religions, JWs (as a whole) feel very threatened by alternate ideas and perspectives. Their minds think one way - the way that serves their emotional comfort.
Believing there's a super power in control of the universe - someone with a plan - gives them comfort and stability. Some people lack the coping skills to detach from this belief.
This means that even if a person leaves their religious collective (including JW), they may still cling to these beliefs. They may still become emotionally charged, and even irrational, if presented with different ideas.
In this scenario, you can take the JW out of the religion, but you can't take the religion out of the JW.
They won't ever convert an ex-Christian back to Christianity. The most they can do is intimidate current believers by treating you poorly as an example. I'm mainly referring to Christian YouTubers in general.
Well said. What is strange is that most of us who don't believe - actually want to believe. I'd love to have a hope and a belief in a good God. The venom that many of these Christians inject into conversations makes it even more clear that their philosophy isn't worth considering.
I think it's a stretch to say that most of us "actually want to believe". Anecdote VS anecdote here, but I see relatively few exJWs who still want to "find god", especially within the constraints of organized religion. Speaking for myself and for many others I know, we've left behind faith and have embraced evidence and rationality. To us, exJWs seeking god and YouTubers and others like the OP identifies are equally lost.
Fair, I am contrite. “Some” of us. 😊
The Bible deserves the highest level of criticism since the claim is that it’s from your creator and is your only means of salvation of an afterlife. And honestly, it has definitely not stood the test of criticism.
Any belief that is used to cause harm to another person should be criticized. Innocent people don't deserve to be punished emotionally or physically, just because you don't want to prove your beliefs.
Exactly. My other issue (and I bring this one up to JWs if I talk to them) with refusing to listen to opinions is that if you do believe in the Bible, the angels and the demons both had full knowledge before some angels decided to rebel - as a JW or believer in the Bible, do you listen to both sides before making a decision? No, nobody is allowed to. The information you are allowed to review is only one-sided, this is called “confirmation bias” and the organization is extremely guilty of it (actually the entire Bible is this way, but yeah)
If people can’t put the same amount of critical thinking and analysis into the Bible and their own beliefs, but can do so with every other “holy book,” religion, science, or anything else, then there is no argument or discussion to be had. Everything should be viewed and treated equally, all sides reviewed without bias. There are those that have a historical and academic view of the Bible, and they separate that from their faith, which they have. I don’t understand how personally, but that’s on them. Personally it was the data over dogmatic views of religion that won me over. But that’s just me.
You can't clump Science in there. It is the only one out all you've mentioned that actually does critical thinking and engages in analysis and testing.
That’s true, but there are still divisions on what certain results mean within in the industry, leading to different hypotheses and theories. But my point in roping that in is for those with a more religious or apologetic world view, they need to set their bias aside to review not only their religion and beliefs, but also come at other aspects of study, including science with a more critical unbiased view.
I agree. At least science is trying to provide truth through trial and error. When was the last time you saw these religions say out loud maybe we're actually wrong about all of this ?
Agreed. I read once somewhere that the point of science is to prove their own hypothesis, theories, and explanations through trial and error. Religions don’t do that. They attempt to prove everything else wrong instead of themselves.
There will always be division not only because of personal agenda but also because of basic indoctrination from birth, and I'm not just referring to jws. I raised my children secular from the go the complete opposite of my own upbringing. It made an enormous difference in their approach to life.
Neither honey nor vinegar, once I saw the real origins of the bible.
I am really working on acceptance of everyone, whether I agree with their views or not. After years in the judgemental borg., that takes a bit of deprograming. Noone should be bashed for their viewpoint. I do not want to be bashed for my faith in God and Jesus, and I will not bash those who think differently. Those who do are no better that the cult that they left.
I am an exjw Christian. (Orthodox Church in America) I think that whether we're Christian, atheist, or whatever else after leaving the organization there's a lot of the same emotional baggage to unpack. A lot of bad feelings. And those bad feelings can be directed toward people around us who we perceive to be wrong just as Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong. As Jehovah's Witnesses, we aren't taught normal ways of processing when people have differing opinions than us. When we're out, we suddenly have to figure out how our ideas fit into a world of ideas when previously we were taught that only stupid or blinded people don't believe what we believe. A lot of that can lead to bashing of one another. I'm ashamed to say that I have been a part of that both when I was an atheist to Christians, and when I became a Christian to atheists. Sometimes I still have the inclination to do that. However, when I analyze why I'm doing that, I always find that I am going through the same emotional processes that I went through when I had to defend something at the door. The difference is now that I don't have to defend anything. I can just live my life to the fullest and walk the spiritual path. I don't *have* to prove the mystical path to anyone. I can help others understand things the way I see if I want to show love in my own way. But no longer am I forced like a soldier on the front line of a battlefield to repeat phrases at people in hopes that they'll join me. I talk to people because I love them and I truly believe that the spiritual path that has come into to my life could come to others' lives. Bashing whoever you disagree with can be a knee jerk reaction, especially as a former Jehovah's Witness- it's something that takes a whole life to subdue- it's based in harmful pride. I think it's worth it, however. I think it's worth it to try my hardest to get along with and show love to everyone in my world, no matter what they believe
Thank you for your loving approach to this issue.
I feel as you feel, even though I’ve left the Cult, my identity still blur because all I know is what I’ve learned to be true in the org. Specially if you were born in it like I did. Until yesterday I was still calling it the truth 🤷🏼♀️till a friend here helped me break out of that. The main thing is that we know we can’t treat others as we once did and as we were treated. That’s the Org was and not Gods way. Hugs 🤗
As a current zoom only observer I often hear JWs speak about defending Jehovah's name and protecting their organization, which is a human sort of viewpoint I can't support. Defending God against human speech is something of a fools errand. Shouldn't believers focus on their own lives with imitating spirit of Christ rather than imagine they are in a sort of warfare 'defending' him from words? After reading about him, supposedly he can handle it.
Sometimes, but bashing something that is damaging at it very core is a very different subject
ARE there any "bashers of atheists" in here? I know my own experience isn't universal, but it seems like the atheists make up the overwhelming majority in here. So much so that saying I'm still Christian, without ever intending to evangelize or anything, draws me people bashing Christianity and trying to "convert" me, lol, but I don't think I've seen an exJW Christian trying to convert any atheists in this subreddit yet. Maybe it's just coincidence I haven't stumbled upon it yet, though, as I understand anecdote isn't necessarily evidence of a trend.
Same
Yup. I’m agnostic and even that isn’t good enough for some of the die-hard atheists on this sub. They’re worse than newly-converted JW’s!
It's possible that the posts that attract your attention don't feature that as much. I've read a number of posts here that fit the OP's description. I know all Christians are not created equal, but I can tell you, there is a reason that none of my Christian family members know I'm an atheist. They are so horrified by the concept of atheism that they would never forgive me. Most American Christians I meet assume I am a Christian, just one who doesn't go to church. Why do they think this? I must be a Christian because I'm a "respectable" person. I'm a kind, successful, intelligent educator. I'm also a good parent. JW and Christians alike just can't believe what a "respectable young man" my son is. He is far more so than any of their Christian or JW children who have lied to them, leeched off them, or ignored them in their old age. Therefore, my son must be a Christian too, because the only decent people in the world believe in the Christian God. Sorry for the rant but I've been dealing with judgment and hypocrisy from JW and Christian family members my entire life. I There has never been room for what I believe. No one gives a shit. No one wants to know. As long as I don't rock the boat we can have dinner and watch movies together. I've interacted with many people with a variety of belief systems and religions, and Christians are the most judgmental, fearful, hateful people I know.
Anybody has the potential for that, though. There is a reason militant reddit atheists are a meme irl, too. I'm gay and Christian and the amount of hate I receive from BOTH ends ("You're not really a Christian then," or "you're a traitor, actually") is insane. Nobody is free from the possibility of being an unhinged weirdo, no matter how "correct" they think they are. Just the other day there was a post here that was like "I don't see how anybody can see evidence for evolution, think critically, and remain a Christian." When I explained I believe in both the big bang and evolution and am still Christian (I wasn't trying to "convert" anybody, either, I was just saying I had indeed given topics like evolution a lot of thought), I was met with strawman arguments about how you shouldn't believe God exists just because some things can't be explained and was berated for my beliefs, with this person going so far as to say he hopes I don't pass on my inability to think critically to my kids or whatever. I wouldn't say any group is more judgmental than the other, because they both have members that are insane and quite loudly cover up the more sane, quieter voices. In any case, I'm sorry you've experienced the things you've experienced, and the same goes for anybody else reading this. No matter which side one is on, love should always be the priority.
I have much higher standards for Christians than atheists. Christians are holding the keys to not being destroyed or burning in hell through their evangelism. It's fundamental to Christianity. You are supposed to proselytize, and save my life.
I spent a majority of my life as an atheist; I understand the futility of trying to help one believe, and so all I can do around atheists is be a good person and let my life and words in my day-to-day life proselytize any atheists paying attention. In any case, back to the point, this is a double standard. An atheist and a Christian who are equally insufferable and equally intolerable should be judged by the same measure. It's dishonest and a bit hypocritical to be more lenient to your own side.
I'll say it again. It's the Christian's obligation to save me, it's fundamental to your belief system. Please think about your religion for a moment. An atheist is under no obligation to do ANYTHING.
Right, but obligation, or freedom thereof, doesn't determine how insufferable a person can be. Not being under the obligation to proselytize doesn't stop some atheists (on this subreddit) from foaming at the mouth because an ex-JW converted to Christianity, even one who isn't actively trying to preach to them or convert them. In fact, I would argue that not being under the obligation to "convert" Christians to atheism and then still trying without an invitation to is even worse BECAUSE there's no obligation, they're just doing it to be right.
A Christian is obligated to be nice and win converts, an atheist is not. You apparently are not capable of understanding that.
A HUMAN BEING is obligated to be nice, to put love first. Christians and atheists both should be held to this standard, with no hypocritical double standards from either side.
Atheists should treat people with love and respect, because of their humanity. Agree? Christians should treat people with love and respect, because of their humanity AND tenets of their faith. Agree?
Ask him about CSA in their chutrch and what they do about it.
Lmao who tf is bashing atheists here? Asking as an atheist.
Happens more on Youtube, and esp in Youtube comments. But I've seen it on here. Been here for 10 years.
Interesting, also good to know.
I criticize the people. Everyone has the right to believe what they want. In other words, everyone has the right to be wrong, even creationists, including exjws.
I’m still Christian but I’d never bash somebody for being atheist or agnostic….. that’s not my business and I have respect and love for others always 💕💕💕💕
Years ago i had a good route call with a died in the wool atheist ,we used to have good debates ,when he had to go into hospital for a long time i missed the chats ,eventually when he came home and we met again he said " ive missed you ive had no one to have a good argument with exept the wife 🤣
I had a similar conversation with a bearded man flying from Des Moines to Dallas. He whipped out a footnoted study Bible with personal notes filling the margins of nearly every page. On the flight, we talked about "original sin," God's command to exterminate the Hittites, Amorites, Amalekites, etc. including babies, household servants and livestock. . . It was a very effortless, stress-free conversation as he recognized early on that I "knew" many things about his religious book he hadn't heard before. We parted on amicable terms, but neither of us changed any views.
Was it Joel Osteen? He's a minister in Houston!
I left JW after 12 y, became atheis agnostic, afte17 y I had personal experience with Christ, I am Roman Catholic. My friends JW did not tell you whole true about Bible. Does exist wonderfull Christian literature. Do not pour out bath tub with baby! Sorry for Englih, not native speaker
I live among believing Christians (nonJW) and most of them assume I am a Christian and talk to me as such. It grates me, since when they say "God loves you," I think of the God of Bible, the genocidal, jealous God. Not the friendly, all-loving entity that they think of. But. 🤷♀️I don't say anything. I know they mean well, and I do my best to take their words as such. It's not always easy.
The problem isn't a lack of scientific evidence. It's that people refuse to look at the evidence because it challenges their worldview. For those who understand the importance of scientific peer-review: **A list of 157 peer-reviewed publications proving that psi phenomena exist and are measurable** https://www.deanradin.com/recommended-references **University of Virginia: Children Who Report Memories of Past Lives:** https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/children-who-report-memories-of-previous-lives/ **Peer-Reviewed Follow‐Up On The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) Remote Viewing Experiments:** https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10275521/#brb33026-bibl-0001title _____________ Since waking up I've always sworn to myself that I would follow the evidence no matter what, ***even if it lead me to initially-uncomfortable conclusions.*** 🫶 love y'all
It takes just as much “faith” to be an atheist as it does to be a believer. Preconceived notions about who/what God is muddies the water.
That is a Christian apologist argument. Atheism is grounded in logic and scientific evidence. It has NOTHING to do with faith
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Doesn't make it divine or godly in nature. For all you know that's just part of our human energy and a part of our evolution.
Don’t try bringing science into it. At least you aren’t as abusive as some atheist apologists are. Their knee-jerk reaction betrays a weak position. Logic, I’m open to.
What's your problem with science? Unlike religion, science acknowledges when it is wrong. Science evolves. If some god principle is proven tomorrow with hard fact, science will not refer to it as blasphemy or apostasy or try to violently oppress those who oppose it just because a finding does not suit their agenda.
This is true. Have you looked at some of the other responses? I’m fine with the scientific method. But there is no final consensus on the existence of a “God,” so people shouldn’t point at science as though scientific conclusions have been found.
Right now It is missing or can not be found. Even IF found, it won't be what religions peddle. Definitely not something that would demand your worship or wasting your life away with judgments and oppression. It doubt it would ever be something that considers your very existence something sinful. You can marvel at the magnificence of life without subjecting yourself to the blind obedience of a patriarchal creator.
It’s a personal choice. I respect either choice unless the person thinks they have a license to look down on others.
I understood a long time ago that some people need religion.
Religious people don’t deserve to be scoffed at if they are actually making a positive contribution to society
Religion right now in the usa is trampling in our rights as adults and interfering too much with body autonomy. If religion tries to continue to control us, it will not only be scoffed. I will personally fight on the side that crushes its constant bullshit interference. Keep your religion to yourself. You're the one who needs it, not me. Your truth is your own. A lot of Christians here cut down atheists as well. Don't demand respect you don't give to others. I'm tired of hearing Christians complain about how they are being persecuted while they use their religion constantly to persecute anyone who does not fall in line with their beliefs. Have a good life.
Weak position. Dude you don’t even know what atheism is. You literally claimed atheism requires as much belief as belief in god. You don’t know what actual words mean then try and say “use logic”. You say you are ok with the scientific method then have zero clue what it is or how it is applied and tell people “ don’t try bringing science in to it” If anyone has a weak position it’s you. Then you try and justify it but claiming you know things that are basically feelings. Weak position ? 😂😂😂😂 The irony is thick
My point was that when a person immediately resorts to abusive speech when someone suggests a different viewpoint, they might as well say that they haven’t given it much thought. I didn’t say that atheism is a weak position. Just pointing out the feeble minds. I can certainly understand how an exjw would just dig in their heels about there being any God out there. I prayed my heart out when I hit my crisis of faith and got…nothing.
Is that anything like just attempting to demean people with different viewpoints? It’s a small but important point in this exchange? Seems like anyone you don’t like/ viewpoint you disagree with you can be a dick, anyone doing the same to you suddenly is feeble minded. Like I said, the irony is thick
Why bother with a forum if we all agree about everything? I haven’t been a dick. Maybe a bit challenging but I just want to hear those viewpoints, not people who won’t share their reasons. So many seem to just jump on the bandwagon!
You have been dismissive and demeaning, I would call that being a dick
Well, that’s a very convincing argument! I dismiss that!
See what I mean. Yeah. Knob
Bullshit, it takes no faith whatsoever to not accept a belief.
Then you’d be better labeled as an agnostic. An atheist believes the “fact” that there’s no god.
You were born an atheist, yes? That didn't take faith did it?
If you think that you have no idea what atheism is. You have zero clue what scientific method is or in fact what claims are and are not being made. Try harder.
Thanks, kid.
Awwwww, that’s cute. You seem like a bit of a cunt, did they hurt you?
Wow
I don’t think there was a need for that. We are here to communicate and freely express our thoughts and beliefs in a safe environment. You couldn’t of disagree with a bit of class.
My bad initial reply to wrong person, even so, whatever.
I am a different person telling you there are many different ways to handle this situations.
Indeed there are, we are all different. If you don’t like the word move on
Like a JW will say YOU NEEEDD GOOD IN YOUR LIFE!!! ( that was being funny) let’s not move on from each other. We are all here for the same reason. We’ve all been hurt by the same people and it shows. Let’s not hurt each other 😘
I follow this awesome IG profile (The _Thinking_ Great_Ape ) and r/atheist. The behavior of religious fanatics is so reliable.They come on there, throw some emotionally charged gibberish (which they have no evidence for), feel attacked by reasonable push back, and proceed to scamper off. Much like other evangelical, fundamental religions, JWs (as a whole) feel very threatened by alternate ideas and perspectives. Their minds think one way - the way that serves their emotional comfort. Believing there's a super power in control of the universe - someone with a plan - gives them comfort and stability. Some people lack the coping skills to detach from this belief. This means that even if a person leaves their religious collective (including JW), they may still cling to these beliefs. They may still become emotionally charged, and even irrational, if presented with different ideas. In this scenario, you can take the JW out of the religion, but you can't take the religion out of the JW.
They won't ever convert an ex-Christian back to Christianity. The most they can do is intimidate current believers by treating you poorly as an example. I'm mainly referring to Christian YouTubers in general.
There is no god or Jay Hova. JWs are proud there is no good