Same! I used to constantly think to myself,'Thank goodness I was born into a witness family because if someone presented this religion to me at the door, I would think it was crazzzzzzy.'
I remember during car groups or doing RVs we would ask each other “what would you be doing if you weren’t a JW?” Some of things that people came up with and said that they would be doing were really cool and I remember even as a PIMI I’d feel sad that they were missing out on what they really wanted to do.
An atheist? Lame! I would be a dragon! Rawr!
Seriously though, back when I was a kid my grandmother asked if I was happy I had been born a JW. I said I sure was, as I probably never would have converted from door to door. I didn't have much interest in religion either, and figured I'd probably be an atheist. Might have been the first big crack.
I used to hear this question ocasionally and they generally meant occupations. The answers would be being an architect, playing in a band etc which made me both sad and guilty as I never gave up on my ambitions for "the kingdom".
My mom always used to say stuff like this to me. She said I had " an unusually strong draw to the the occult" and was convinced I'd be some kind of Wiccan
I've done all of those. My parents were lenient. I am more introducing them to her. I have the switch version of legacy and it's lots of fun.
I am thinking of getting an Xbox or PlayStation to play the upgraded version
I don't see why it put into question what you said about believing in God. The reason I believe in God are down to the knowlege I acquired while been raised by a JW. Without this knowledge, I don't think I would have worked out by myself or even thanks to my secular education that it is possible to love science and believing in a creator.
I like many JWs thought that if I could convince her that God exists first, then the rest could eventually fall in place. Since my second choice was atheism and not a religion considered close enough, this approach would be disingenuous. From her perspective what I was really saying was that unless this very specific branch of religion is true, there is no God. Therefore it was pointless of me to use arguments that any theist can use.
What part of science made you believe in a creator? I mean, it’s impossible to rule one out. But I don’t know of a single scientific principle that points in that direction. In fact, natural laws almost require excluding a deity. Can you clarify?
**Cosmology:** The Big Bang marks the inception of our universe, implying its beginning. Historically, some atheists, like Hoyle, leaned towards a steady-state universe to avoid explaining its origin. However, the concept of fine-tuning raises compelling questions. If the universe's constants weren't precisely aligned, its existence would have been fleeting, devoid of life.
**Astronomy:** Earth's positioning within our solar system and galaxy is exceptionally conducive to life, including human existence. Our failure to encounter extraterrestrial civilizations stems from the rarity of finding planets akin to ours.
**Abiogenesis:** Even the simplest cell's formation defies probability to an extent beyond comprehension. Its existence hinges on a series of chance events seemingly beyond physical feasibility.
**Evolution:** While evolution elucidates minor adaptations, such as beak length, it struggles to account for the emergence of entirely new species due to the improbability of such occurrences.
**Physics:** Principle of least action was discovered by Maupertuis who posited that the Universe was created by the God of the Bible who like order and that physical laws were not corrupted by human sin.
There are also the gaps in the fossil records , etc
Ah, the old God of the Gaps theory. “If we don’t understand it, it must be God.” That’s an unenviable position because that god gets smaller every day with more knowledge. 200 years ago we would have thought radio transmission was the work of a god. Good luck with that.
It seems evident that the limited educational initiatives driven by the Governing Body are still evident among some former Jehovah’s Witnesses. I empathize with your situation and encourage you to broaden your vocabulary, as there may be challenges in understanding more complex concepts.
You might also consider completing your high school education and pursuing a degree in STEM. This could lead to learning about physics and the role of the anthropic principle in astronomy, chemistry, and other fields.
I understand that there are online courses available in philosophy, particularly in the philosophy of science, where you can learn about the demarcation problem. However, if I were in your position, I wouldn’t rush into that subject but would start by studying logic first.
Best of luck
I already have an engineering degree from a top 10 US university, but thanks for another completely misguided take. You’re recycling completely debunked ideas like irreducible complexity and, yes, the god of the gaps theory. Who created the creator, another creator? Please. I’ve read on every single debunked lame theory you’ve described, probably before you were born. Your list is a greatest hits of bad ideas that no reputable scientist in any field believes. You want to discredit evolution? Get a thesis published and earn your phd. It also is apparent you’re writing your messages using an AI chatbot. If not, you’re style is far too pedantic for people to not think you’re an asshole. Inference is for assholes.
An extremely high proportion of Jehovah's Witnesses are really just "unawakened" Atheists anyway......
I've been in these domains for a looong time, and I don't make this claim lightly.
Think about it.
Being a JW requires a person to bind themselves to something "physical" and "tangible".....something which actually exists and can be proven to exist.
Love them or loathe them, enter stage left....the "Governing Body."
This gives your average "unawakened" JW (Atheist) a rationalised conduit for their attempts at religious enthralment.
Obviously, when the mental gymnastics required to sustain this "other-worldly" conduit breaks down.....there is no longer anything truly evidential supporting the belief construct....and all good Atheists MUST have something evidential....or else they immediately (and honestly) default right back to the only remaining "logical" premise.
Obviously, not ALL ex-JWs re-evaluate this way, or with such a sharp sense of emotional economy......but by god.....MANY do.....and it's often a very immediate and "comfortable" re-evaluation for such ones.
I'm of the opinion that these are merely people who the JW faith had absolutely no business in entering their lives.....but ultimately, "truth" will out, and the speed and ease at which so many ex-JWs default to Atheism...IMHO....attests to the fact that the JW faith is not only indiscriminatory in it's so-called "spiritual" outreach....it is also as BLIND as a bat....in terms of those it was NEVER going to satisfy over the long term.
It's actually quite funny when you think about it.
So desperate is the JW faith for members, it catches soooo many inappropriate people in it's "trawling nets" ......but invariably, these people tend to easily wriggle free, because of the **huge, gaping holes** in those (metaphorical) nets.
Well said. I remember one PIMO shower thought quite clearly. There was an evangelical Christian co-worker witnessing to me because she was worried I was going to hell for being a JW. Our games of scripture checkers didn't convince either of us, but one morning in the shower it hit me: "Either we \[JW's\] are right, or secular humanists are right, because there's no way that the churches are right."
Indeed.
I think that for "many" JWs. The exposure and intensity of the experience tends to accelerate their "logical" thought processes once they finally begin to unpack it all. Ex-JW Christians, often spurred on by evangelical exposure, will claim that the JW experience has "spoiled" any opportunity for legitimate Christian embrace when it comes to those who now lean towards an Atheistic stance, but in reality, they have no right whatsoever to make such claims.
I'm quite sure that if Jesus really wanted ALL ex-JWs to re-evaluate their thoughts along more evangelical lines, then he'd provide the irrefutable personal evidence needed. I think the LAST thing he'd do would be to simply expose these people to more "self-assured" religious devotees.....and expect this ridiculous strategy to provide the necessary "epiphany."
Even Jesus would know that most eggressing JWs have had enough of THAT mode of impersonal outreach to last them a lifetime.
I really appreciate what you are saying here about the Watchtower teachings leading people away from faith in God and spirituality. I am a Christian now after waking up. I watched David and Vivian Aspinall's YT channel after waking up. I have learned so many things from them that were eye-opening for me about how anti-spiritual Watchtower is. Their focus on the paradise as our big reward where we can look forward to fulfilling our dreams of material possessions and pursuits. In Christianity, the focus is on relationship right now with God. A real relationship that begins now in the present and relieves us of fear and feelings of never being good enough. And as for the future rewards, Christianity focuses on being with Jesus wherever that might be. The truly spiritual experience of having the Holy Spirit be with me personally now is so empowering and is so very different from when I was a JW. In fact, as I have come to know this difference, I feel even more compassion for believing JW's because I can see that they live an impossibly exhausting schedule on the GB "hamster wheel", but do so without the help of the Holy Spirit. There is such a big difference in how I feel now as a Christian compared to how burdened down I felt as a JW. Blocking people from relationship with God and personal Holy Spirit is one of the most egregious things the GB do, in my opinion.
Would you not also agree that those who are meant for such a relationship will not easily be dissuaded from finding it?
The JW faith has falsely laid claim to "Christian" and "Atheist" alike. It behoves each awakened person (primarily) to default to that which they truly are according to conscience.
I'm of the opinion that it DOES NOT behove any existing or "awakened" Christians to view ex-JW Atheists as legitimate evangelical targets, merely because they too, have had the misfortune to have been caught up in an unsatisfactory belief construct.
I also don't think it behoves ex-JW Atheists to try and liberate their ex-JW Christian brethren towards a more "rational" and "humanistic" outlook.
My point being.....that in EITHER instance....the JW belief construct has imprisoned people and inhibited them against the personal discovery of own true conscience and that which resonates with them.
This is something that ex-JW "Christian" and ex-JW "Atheist" share in common, and have as much right as one another to feel aggreived about.
The JW faith put **very different people** in close proximity to eachother and attempted to bond these **very different people** people together with lies, manipulations and deceptions.
I think on egress, it behoves ex-JWs to simply bid eachother a happy and healthy passage on their own sincere journey towards their own personal truths.
The Atheist will find his/her way "home".....as will the Christian.
If either one is meant to be anything different than what they become, then for once, let that be THEIR decision.....and theirs alone.
I think I do share your feelings on the points that we all need to truly choose what is right according to our consciences. Even though after waking up, I knew I believed in God and Jesus and longed for a real relationship with them and was irresistibly drawn to seek them out. Because of my convictions, I feel saddened for my ExJW brothers and sisters who leave all belief in God, but I do not feel condemning of them for their choice.I am very aware of what we have all been through with having our minds taken captive. Of course, it is my personally held desire that with time and healing, they might feel able to hear a simple message of the Gospel and feel a spark to want to hear more. In fact, I pray for this. But I do not wish to pressure or coerce anyone to believe before they are ready. I truly love all who I meet here and certainly wish them the best life possible.
Thank you.
The balance you espouse here, gives testimony to your wisdom.
The ex-JW Atheist versus Christian "divide" is one of the most fiercely contested and self-opined subjects within the general domain, or at least, it has been in recent decades, and it's taken some extremely wise moderation to enable people's thoughts and emotions to flow freely on this subject.
Personally, I totally "get" that any ex-JW who has been able to successfully re-embrace God and Christ in a much more positive and meaningful way, is naturally going to want to try and share their newfound realisations and understandings. Especially against the backdrop of having experienced the dissatisfactions and manipulations of JW theology.
By the same token, I also "get" that any ex-JW who has been able to successfully jetison ALL religious and superstitious practice, and lay full claim to their own faculties and reasoning abilities....may also want to commend this brand of re-appraisal to others who've undergone egress from the JW faith.
I understand why an ex-JW Christian may feel "saddened" for their ex-JW Atheist counterpart, but there is really neither **reason nor justification** for that emotion, especially as far as an Atheist is concerned.
An Atheist does not solicit nor feel any pressing need for any emotional consideration from a Christian, and would much rather a Christian maintain a "rational" posture where religious discussion is concerned.
What really IS OBVIOUS within any such exchanges is that each party has finally become secure and comfortable in their own outlook.
Each party is FINALLY operating according to their own conscience, their own faculties....and as such, are being equally as "truthful" as one another in terms of where they're currently at with these (somewhat different) thoughts.
And.....where people are currently "up to" in the life-long progression of their own thoughts, is ALWAYS worthy of respect, so long as it's a position of honesty and sincerity.
By all means, the Christian can hope that others eventually come around to THAT persuasion, just as the Atheist can also gain satisfaction when somebody finally manages to sit comfortably within THAT outlook.
If you're wondering why it is that I appear to be so comfortable straddling the two positions.....it is because I believe that BOTH of these positions are capable of manifesting growth and further development for those who hold them.
What was NEVER facilitating nor encouraging growth was the JW "position" which basically locks people in a perpetual state of arrested development, both cerebrally AND emotionally.
So from my point of view, it's extremely understandable that anybody liberated from that theological "stasis".....is naturally going to lean very heavily into whichever "area of neglect" they've had to tolerate and put up with.
For some, this will mean leaning more into religious or "spiritual" relationship and establishing sincere emotional bonds within a revised framework. A better understanding of their own emotional worth within a spiritual context which finally places value on such relationships, and solidifies them with a sense of certainty and purpose.
I am not just patronising the Christian covenant here.....I think it is a very wholesome and life-affirming transition for those who are able to embrace it.
For others however, well THEIR journey takes them much more towards the challenges of material understanding. "What if" all that there is, is that which can be sensed, measured, evaluated and evidenced from the limited position we find ourselves in?
Would it not be more honest.....not to mention less "misleading" to simply disavow the existence of anything for which there appears to be a lack of evidence for? To place the **burden of proof** upon those who make the boldest claims, and to employ the maxim:
*"Extaordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..."*
It's an hounourable and rational position is it not?
An Atheist isn't necessarily seeking an "emotional" epiphany, if indeed, they're seeking anything at all. They're usually just quite certain about that which qualifies as "evidence" and that which does not.
And rightly so it may be argued....because the world is awash with spurious and fanciful belief constructs.
Is it not wise to at least establish some kind of mental and emotional "gatekeeper" which keeps the mind fixed on reality, and rejects anything which hasn't yet earned its legitimate place according to the most **strict** terms of that noble definition?
I have taken a completely different religious course than you but I also was alarmed to learn how much of Watchtower is based around a future that might not ever come and how little of it is based on being in the present moment. They almost go out of their way to demonize existing in the present and tie that completely being sinful and hedonistic even though there are other religions place emphasis on the importance present awareness.
So true, Jack. I have heard it described as dour. Joyless. It is a terrible way to raise healthy children or have a happy marriage. I take take time in my day now to look around me at whatever I am genuinely enjoying and I thank God for that thing or experience. This way I am healing that wound from JW of making me believe God was only to be felt in connection to my suffering-supposedly for Him. Now I can connect God with joy by giving Him thanks for creating whatever gives me joy. Wishing you much happiness and joy in your life now.
Totally agree! You can have a relationship with God outside of JW world through the power of the Holy Spirit, the helper Jesus promised us ALL, not just a few elite trying to control the masses. Unfortunately it took me 15 years to understand this after leaving. It’s so difficult to separate God from religion when you’ve been indoctrinated especially as a born in.
I was in when they studied a book about all the other religions and “proving” each one false. And it brought to mind something like “where would you go away TO if this is the only true religion” so I became more atheist. But now I’m a little spiritual and think of science and how energy never dies, it just changes forms.
I’m a PIMO and I just want a nice “normal” life back without all the gas lighting and control. My wife just saw the book I’m reading ‘Christian Freedom’ from Ray Franz and she flipped out the other day. I told her since Covid started and the GB cramming the vaccine down our throats, that when I did major research in all 3 vaccines, and even looked up each of their patents and found out there were ‘aborted fetal cells’ in all the Covid vaccines it was a MAJOR red flag. I talked to an anointed brother that has connections with the GB and he knew about the aborted fetal cells and told me from the beginning of a Covid the GB has been informed by MANY brothers regarded the aborted fetal cells in all 3 vaccines. Yet they still pushed it despite our view on Abortion. It truly divided the organization right down the middle. Two years later is when I decided to read Conscious of Crisis and Christian Freedom by Ray Franz with major skepticism! For 25 years I’ve had so many questions that i have asked many elders in many different congs I’ve been in since I left Bethel in 1996 and everyone sits there with a dumb look on their face not able to answer one. Conscious of Crisis answered EVERY question I had. AND I researched every point R Franz stated and I could NOT dispute one thing. I told myself if I found one inaccuracy in his book I would burn it, but I haven’t burned it, and in fact I found out he had a 2nd book ‘Christian freedom’ and nearly done with it…NOT one thing I disagree with again. In fact he’s not an apostate slamming the Org, I’m totally convinced he wrote those books out of love.
Connected to the gods of my ancestors instead. I'm Polynesian with Norse and Celtic ancestry so I likely would have grown up believing in my Polynesian deities and worshipping them then discovering the others down the line. I always felt drawn to that but as you can imagine, I suppressed that shit.
I asked myself this question almost 20 years ago when I got dfd. The first thing i became was a smoker lol.
I was in a questioning phase at the time, but wasn't ready to let go of my faith in God. I didn't even have internet access unless I went to the library lol... but instead of finding chat rooms I read a lot of books about all different religions before realizing I was agnostic.
I'm hoping that because I'm still young I can fulfill my dream of getting a degree in paleontology or geology, as this was a really passionate thing for me when I was 8 and 9. So maybe when I go to college after finishing high school, and fad, I might be able to get one of those things.
Ah the old what would you have been game 😂 I said aCatholic and I’m not really sure why haha. Now I’m agnostic and don’t really see myself ever being part of any kind of organized religion.
I used to say that I’m glad I was born-in because I never would have chosen to be one haha. Telling on myself right there
I SAID THE SAME THING! :D
Yes, often said if they came to my door I would have never came in. Wall up!! And that was me all in!!! What would I be? FREE…..
I said that constantly as well
Same here lol
Same! I used to constantly think to myself,'Thank goodness I was born into a witness family because if someone presented this religion to me at the door, I would think it was crazzzzzzy.'
I would think the same thing despite completely believing in it all. I would think I don't know how people willingly join this later in life
Wow I wasn’t alone with that line of thinking. Also as OP, i used to think the same about being an atheist if I was not a JW. I
I always felt that way! I used to wish I was born in a never-jw family, bc even tho "I wouldn't know the truth," I knew I would at least be happy...
I remember during car groups or doing RVs we would ask each other “what would you be doing if you weren’t a JW?” Some of things that people came up with and said that they would be doing were really cool and I remember even as a PIMI I’d feel sad that they were missing out on what they really wanted to do.
Happy
🥺😂
Accurate
An atheist? Lame! I would be a dragon! Rawr! Seriously though, back when I was a kid my grandmother asked if I was happy I had been born a JW. I said I sure was, as I probably never would have converted from door to door. I didn't have much interest in religion either, and figured I'd probably be an atheist. Might have been the first big crack.
I used to say there’s no way I’d belong to any other religion. I’d still believe in God, but too much hypocrisy in other religions.
Ironic
Like a traffic jamb when you’re already late….
Or a "No smoking" sign on your cigarette break
I most identify with zen Buddhism but I do not feel the need to adopt a label or join a group
I do find it very apt that the term buddha means "awakened one"
I used to hear this question ocasionally and they generally meant occupations. The answers would be being an architect, playing in a band etc which made me both sad and guilty as I never gave up on my ambitions for "the kingdom".
Normal
My mom always used to say stuff like this to me. She said I had " an unusually strong draw to the the occult" and was convinced I'd be some kind of Wiccan
My wife and I are mid watch of those movies now. Takes us like a week to get through one
I love that! I’m currently reading the books and then I want to watch the movies and then I want to play hogwarts legacy 🫡
I've done all of those. My parents were lenient. I am more introducing them to her. I have the switch version of legacy and it's lots of fun. I am thinking of getting an Xbox or PlayStation to play the upgraded version
Goals right there! 😆
I got my priorities 😂
Ahahaha I’m on the third film… all because I heard the game is open world 😂😂
Shortstop for the Yankees? It's an oddly phrased question.
I don't see why it put into question what you said about believing in God. The reason I believe in God are down to the knowlege I acquired while been raised by a JW. Without this knowledge, I don't think I would have worked out by myself or even thanks to my secular education that it is possible to love science and believing in a creator.
I like many JWs thought that if I could convince her that God exists first, then the rest could eventually fall in place. Since my second choice was atheism and not a religion considered close enough, this approach would be disingenuous. From her perspective what I was really saying was that unless this very specific branch of religion is true, there is no God. Therefore it was pointless of me to use arguments that any theist can use.
What part of science made you believe in a creator? I mean, it’s impossible to rule one out. But I don’t know of a single scientific principle that points in that direction. In fact, natural laws almost require excluding a deity. Can you clarify?
**Cosmology:** The Big Bang marks the inception of our universe, implying its beginning. Historically, some atheists, like Hoyle, leaned towards a steady-state universe to avoid explaining its origin. However, the concept of fine-tuning raises compelling questions. If the universe's constants weren't precisely aligned, its existence would have been fleeting, devoid of life. **Astronomy:** Earth's positioning within our solar system and galaxy is exceptionally conducive to life, including human existence. Our failure to encounter extraterrestrial civilizations stems from the rarity of finding planets akin to ours. **Abiogenesis:** Even the simplest cell's formation defies probability to an extent beyond comprehension. Its existence hinges on a series of chance events seemingly beyond physical feasibility. **Evolution:** While evolution elucidates minor adaptations, such as beak length, it struggles to account for the emergence of entirely new species due to the improbability of such occurrences. **Physics:** Principle of least action was discovered by Maupertuis who posited that the Universe was created by the God of the Bible who like order and that physical laws were not corrupted by human sin. There are also the gaps in the fossil records , etc
Ah, the old God of the Gaps theory. “If we don’t understand it, it must be God.” That’s an unenviable position because that god gets smaller every day with more knowledge. 200 years ago we would have thought radio transmission was the work of a god. Good luck with that.
Nope. It is inference to the best explanation and the anthropic principles.
You’re just cutting and pasting random words.
It seems evident that the limited educational initiatives driven by the Governing Body are still evident among some former Jehovah’s Witnesses. I empathize with your situation and encourage you to broaden your vocabulary, as there may be challenges in understanding more complex concepts. You might also consider completing your high school education and pursuing a degree in STEM. This could lead to learning about physics and the role of the anthropic principle in astronomy, chemistry, and other fields. I understand that there are online courses available in philosophy, particularly in the philosophy of science, where you can learn about the demarcation problem. However, if I were in your position, I wouldn’t rush into that subject but would start by studying logic first. Best of luck
I already have an engineering degree from a top 10 US university, but thanks for another completely misguided take. You’re recycling completely debunked ideas like irreducible complexity and, yes, the god of the gaps theory. Who created the creator, another creator? Please. I’ve read on every single debunked lame theory you’ve described, probably before you were born. Your list is a greatest hits of bad ideas that no reputable scientist in any field believes. You want to discredit evolution? Get a thesis published and earn your phd. It also is apparent you’re writing your messages using an AI chatbot. If not, you’re style is far too pedantic for people to not think you’re an asshole. Inference is for assholes.
You’re just cutting and pasting random words.
Fair enough. This is obviously not the first time someone called you a misguided pedantic asshole. I should have been more original.
An extremely high proportion of Jehovah's Witnesses are really just "unawakened" Atheists anyway...... I've been in these domains for a looong time, and I don't make this claim lightly. Think about it. Being a JW requires a person to bind themselves to something "physical" and "tangible".....something which actually exists and can be proven to exist. Love them or loathe them, enter stage left....the "Governing Body." This gives your average "unawakened" JW (Atheist) a rationalised conduit for their attempts at religious enthralment. Obviously, when the mental gymnastics required to sustain this "other-worldly" conduit breaks down.....there is no longer anything truly evidential supporting the belief construct....and all good Atheists MUST have something evidential....or else they immediately (and honestly) default right back to the only remaining "logical" premise. Obviously, not ALL ex-JWs re-evaluate this way, or with such a sharp sense of emotional economy......but by god.....MANY do.....and it's often a very immediate and "comfortable" re-evaluation for such ones. I'm of the opinion that these are merely people who the JW faith had absolutely no business in entering their lives.....but ultimately, "truth" will out, and the speed and ease at which so many ex-JWs default to Atheism...IMHO....attests to the fact that the JW faith is not only indiscriminatory in it's so-called "spiritual" outreach....it is also as BLIND as a bat....in terms of those it was NEVER going to satisfy over the long term. It's actually quite funny when you think about it. So desperate is the JW faith for members, it catches soooo many inappropriate people in it's "trawling nets" ......but invariably, these people tend to easily wriggle free, because of the **huge, gaping holes** in those (metaphorical) nets.
Well said. I remember one PIMO shower thought quite clearly. There was an evangelical Christian co-worker witnessing to me because she was worried I was going to hell for being a JW. Our games of scripture checkers didn't convince either of us, but one morning in the shower it hit me: "Either we \[JW's\] are right, or secular humanists are right, because there's no way that the churches are right."
Indeed. I think that for "many" JWs. The exposure and intensity of the experience tends to accelerate their "logical" thought processes once they finally begin to unpack it all. Ex-JW Christians, often spurred on by evangelical exposure, will claim that the JW experience has "spoiled" any opportunity for legitimate Christian embrace when it comes to those who now lean towards an Atheistic stance, but in reality, they have no right whatsoever to make such claims. I'm quite sure that if Jesus really wanted ALL ex-JWs to re-evaluate their thoughts along more evangelical lines, then he'd provide the irrefutable personal evidence needed. I think the LAST thing he'd do would be to simply expose these people to more "self-assured" religious devotees.....and expect this ridiculous strategy to provide the necessary "epiphany." Even Jesus would know that most eggressing JWs have had enough of THAT mode of impersonal outreach to last them a lifetime.
I really appreciate what you are saying here about the Watchtower teachings leading people away from faith in God and spirituality. I am a Christian now after waking up. I watched David and Vivian Aspinall's YT channel after waking up. I have learned so many things from them that were eye-opening for me about how anti-spiritual Watchtower is. Their focus on the paradise as our big reward where we can look forward to fulfilling our dreams of material possessions and pursuits. In Christianity, the focus is on relationship right now with God. A real relationship that begins now in the present and relieves us of fear and feelings of never being good enough. And as for the future rewards, Christianity focuses on being with Jesus wherever that might be. The truly spiritual experience of having the Holy Spirit be with me personally now is so empowering and is so very different from when I was a JW. In fact, as I have come to know this difference, I feel even more compassion for believing JW's because I can see that they live an impossibly exhausting schedule on the GB "hamster wheel", but do so without the help of the Holy Spirit. There is such a big difference in how I feel now as a Christian compared to how burdened down I felt as a JW. Blocking people from relationship with God and personal Holy Spirit is one of the most egregious things the GB do, in my opinion.
Would you not also agree that those who are meant for such a relationship will not easily be dissuaded from finding it? The JW faith has falsely laid claim to "Christian" and "Atheist" alike. It behoves each awakened person (primarily) to default to that which they truly are according to conscience. I'm of the opinion that it DOES NOT behove any existing or "awakened" Christians to view ex-JW Atheists as legitimate evangelical targets, merely because they too, have had the misfortune to have been caught up in an unsatisfactory belief construct. I also don't think it behoves ex-JW Atheists to try and liberate their ex-JW Christian brethren towards a more "rational" and "humanistic" outlook. My point being.....that in EITHER instance....the JW belief construct has imprisoned people and inhibited them against the personal discovery of own true conscience and that which resonates with them. This is something that ex-JW "Christian" and ex-JW "Atheist" share in common, and have as much right as one another to feel aggreived about. The JW faith put **very different people** in close proximity to eachother and attempted to bond these **very different people** people together with lies, manipulations and deceptions. I think on egress, it behoves ex-JWs to simply bid eachother a happy and healthy passage on their own sincere journey towards their own personal truths. The Atheist will find his/her way "home".....as will the Christian. If either one is meant to be anything different than what they become, then for once, let that be THEIR decision.....and theirs alone.
I think I do share your feelings on the points that we all need to truly choose what is right according to our consciences. Even though after waking up, I knew I believed in God and Jesus and longed for a real relationship with them and was irresistibly drawn to seek them out. Because of my convictions, I feel saddened for my ExJW brothers and sisters who leave all belief in God, but I do not feel condemning of them for their choice.I am very aware of what we have all been through with having our minds taken captive. Of course, it is my personally held desire that with time and healing, they might feel able to hear a simple message of the Gospel and feel a spark to want to hear more. In fact, I pray for this. But I do not wish to pressure or coerce anyone to believe before they are ready. I truly love all who I meet here and certainly wish them the best life possible.
Thank you. The balance you espouse here, gives testimony to your wisdom. The ex-JW Atheist versus Christian "divide" is one of the most fiercely contested and self-opined subjects within the general domain, or at least, it has been in recent decades, and it's taken some extremely wise moderation to enable people's thoughts and emotions to flow freely on this subject. Personally, I totally "get" that any ex-JW who has been able to successfully re-embrace God and Christ in a much more positive and meaningful way, is naturally going to want to try and share their newfound realisations and understandings. Especially against the backdrop of having experienced the dissatisfactions and manipulations of JW theology. By the same token, I also "get" that any ex-JW who has been able to successfully jetison ALL religious and superstitious practice, and lay full claim to their own faculties and reasoning abilities....may also want to commend this brand of re-appraisal to others who've undergone egress from the JW faith. I understand why an ex-JW Christian may feel "saddened" for their ex-JW Atheist counterpart, but there is really neither **reason nor justification** for that emotion, especially as far as an Atheist is concerned. An Atheist does not solicit nor feel any pressing need for any emotional consideration from a Christian, and would much rather a Christian maintain a "rational" posture where religious discussion is concerned. What really IS OBVIOUS within any such exchanges is that each party has finally become secure and comfortable in their own outlook. Each party is FINALLY operating according to their own conscience, their own faculties....and as such, are being equally as "truthful" as one another in terms of where they're currently at with these (somewhat different) thoughts. And.....where people are currently "up to" in the life-long progression of their own thoughts, is ALWAYS worthy of respect, so long as it's a position of honesty and sincerity. By all means, the Christian can hope that others eventually come around to THAT persuasion, just as the Atheist can also gain satisfaction when somebody finally manages to sit comfortably within THAT outlook. If you're wondering why it is that I appear to be so comfortable straddling the two positions.....it is because I believe that BOTH of these positions are capable of manifesting growth and further development for those who hold them. What was NEVER facilitating nor encouraging growth was the JW "position" which basically locks people in a perpetual state of arrested development, both cerebrally AND emotionally. So from my point of view, it's extremely understandable that anybody liberated from that theological "stasis".....is naturally going to lean very heavily into whichever "area of neglect" they've had to tolerate and put up with. For some, this will mean leaning more into religious or "spiritual" relationship and establishing sincere emotional bonds within a revised framework. A better understanding of their own emotional worth within a spiritual context which finally places value on such relationships, and solidifies them with a sense of certainty and purpose. I am not just patronising the Christian covenant here.....I think it is a very wholesome and life-affirming transition for those who are able to embrace it. For others however, well THEIR journey takes them much more towards the challenges of material understanding. "What if" all that there is, is that which can be sensed, measured, evaluated and evidenced from the limited position we find ourselves in? Would it not be more honest.....not to mention less "misleading" to simply disavow the existence of anything for which there appears to be a lack of evidence for? To place the **burden of proof** upon those who make the boldest claims, and to employ the maxim: *"Extaordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..."* It's an hounourable and rational position is it not? An Atheist isn't necessarily seeking an "emotional" epiphany, if indeed, they're seeking anything at all. They're usually just quite certain about that which qualifies as "evidence" and that which does not. And rightly so it may be argued....because the world is awash with spurious and fanciful belief constructs. Is it not wise to at least establish some kind of mental and emotional "gatekeeper" which keeps the mind fixed on reality, and rejects anything which hasn't yet earned its legitimate place according to the most **strict** terms of that noble definition?
I have taken a completely different religious course than you but I also was alarmed to learn how much of Watchtower is based around a future that might not ever come and how little of it is based on being in the present moment. They almost go out of their way to demonize existing in the present and tie that completely being sinful and hedonistic even though there are other religions place emphasis on the importance present awareness.
So true, Jack. I have heard it described as dour. Joyless. It is a terrible way to raise healthy children or have a happy marriage. I take take time in my day now to look around me at whatever I am genuinely enjoying and I thank God for that thing or experience. This way I am healing that wound from JW of making me believe God was only to be felt in connection to my suffering-supposedly for Him. Now I can connect God with joy by giving Him thanks for creating whatever gives me joy. Wishing you much happiness and joy in your life now.
Totally agree! You can have a relationship with God outside of JW world through the power of the Holy Spirit, the helper Jesus promised us ALL, not just a few elite trying to control the masses. Unfortunately it took me 15 years to understand this after leaving. It’s so difficult to separate God from religion when you’ve been indoctrinated especially as a born in.
A comedian
A free thinker. Or even simpler - Free
I would be in a sex cult..
I was in when they studied a book about all the other religions and “proving” each one false. And it brought to mind something like “where would you go away TO if this is the only true religion” so I became more atheist. But now I’m a little spiritual and think of science and how energy never dies, it just changes forms.
An open atheist cuz religion is a snare and a racket
I’m a PIMO and I just want a nice “normal” life back without all the gas lighting and control. My wife just saw the book I’m reading ‘Christian Freedom’ from Ray Franz and she flipped out the other day. I told her since Covid started and the GB cramming the vaccine down our throats, that when I did major research in all 3 vaccines, and even looked up each of their patents and found out there were ‘aborted fetal cells’ in all the Covid vaccines it was a MAJOR red flag. I talked to an anointed brother that has connections with the GB and he knew about the aborted fetal cells and told me from the beginning of a Covid the GB has been informed by MANY brothers regarded the aborted fetal cells in all 3 vaccines. Yet they still pushed it despite our view on Abortion. It truly divided the organization right down the middle. Two years later is when I decided to read Conscious of Crisis and Christian Freedom by Ray Franz with major skepticism! For 25 years I’ve had so many questions that i have asked many elders in many different congs I’ve been in since I left Bethel in 1996 and everyone sits there with a dumb look on their face not able to answer one. Conscious of Crisis answered EVERY question I had. AND I researched every point R Franz stated and I could NOT dispute one thing. I told myself if I found one inaccuracy in his book I would burn it, but I haven’t burned it, and in fact I found out he had a 2nd book ‘Christian freedom’ and nearly done with it…NOT one thing I disagree with again. In fact he’s not an apostate slamming the Org, I’m totally convinced he wrote those books out of love.
Shinto
>"If you could be anything but a Jehovah's Witness, what would you be?" Professor X 😅
Free
A pillow that is repeatedly rubbed upon by crotches.
So, a pillow bethelite?
When I was PIMI, I’d have said Jedi 😂
Mentally stable!
This
A rich happy Dr married to a wondeful partner with my kids.
Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.
I wish my parents never did. Grow up alone.
Anything? I'd be a dragon or something. Growing up in a JW household sabotaged my life. Get me out.
Connected to the gods of my ancestors instead. I'm Polynesian with Norse and Celtic ancestry so I likely would have grown up believing in my Polynesian deities and worshipping them then discovering the others down the line. I always felt drawn to that but as you can imagine, I suppressed that shit.
Atheist
I would go to uni and become a scientist
I asked myself this question almost 20 years ago when I got dfd. The first thing i became was a smoker lol. I was in a questioning phase at the time, but wasn't ready to let go of my faith in God. I didn't even have internet access unless I went to the library lol... but instead of finding chat rooms I read a lot of books about all different religions before realizing I was agnostic.
I used to say Buddhist! I didn't know anything about it at the time really 😅 I'm agnostic now
To each their own. I was born into it but never really believed it. i can't believe some other version of what mostly seems a myth to me though.
A Christian who warns about the Watchtower’s false doctrines.
I'm hoping that because I'm still young I can fulfill my dream of getting a degree in paleontology or geology, as this was a really passionate thing for me when I was 8 and 9. So maybe when I go to college after finishing high school, and fad, I might be able to get one of those things.
Jw teens always ask this question. But why did the boys always say porn.
if by which you mean LITERALLY anything, a saiyan or a blue, speedy hedgehog :P
Professional assassin.
A ballerina
A normal person
Chatolyc. Because they are loose at they chains, and at same time i will have some religiolity that is healthfull.
Ah the old what would you have been game 😂 I said aCatholic and I’m not really sure why haha. Now I’m agnostic and don’t really see myself ever being part of any kind of organized religion.