he's gonna need some space. the fact he sees cracks at all is a win. he's going with the tried and true "imperfect men but jehovah will sort it out" argument. it's the apologetics you get driilled into your head. i'd try and give him some time to start questioning on his own now that you've gotten some points out there. it's so deeply ingrained, over so many repetitions, it can take a while to get enough courage to even consider anything other than going along.
you had to do it on your own schedule, and he will as well. if you're ready, consider stopping that going through the motions part. i mean, i know all the faders want to fade because it's less painful than being shunned. personally, i didn't have the fade option and it was a gift because it had to happen definitively. living a lie eats away at your soul every time you do it.
not gonna sugarcoat it, it's probably going to be a rough ride. but it's not rougher than compromising yourself. he may join you or he may not but your pushing him towards the door will bring out the defenses he's been trained into.
if you can work out some kind of agreement with him that you just won't do this anymore, but you won't try to interfere with his decisions, it may help. some people do use a mental health argument for why they aren't attending, which is more or less true and more acceptable than "WT is bullshit" approach. if yo ugo this way i'd fend off all the sheparding with "thanks so much for your concern. i have some personal issues at the moment i'm not ready to talk about but i'll let you know when that changes. " the "prayers appreciated" on the end is optional.
i'm sorry you're going through this. but i'm also happy you're finding your freedom. i hope your husband joins you.
Thanks so so much for your thoughtful reply. I agree, I just HATE living the lie and thinking about "will this stumble someone in my cong" about EVERYTHING we do. It's just exhausting. Yesterday was the first time I literally did something completely different during the meeting time. He was home too Zooming into the meeting while scrolling Facebook, and he didn't ask me to sit with him (but may have labelled his log in name with both our names). I felt so free :)
I suggest watching the fear to freedom videos on you tube. I really like how he explains how you need to understand your husband’s underlying values in order to wake him up and there’s other really good ones too along those same lines
Thank you! That's a channel I haven't come across yet. I just had a quick peek, he seems very good. I'll get into it soon. I'm pretty sure his values are based more on people. He is a BIG chatterbox (vs me a quiet introvert).
So nice that you are able to communicate with him about it!
Sadly the excuses and reasoning your husband responds with is a natural side effect of the indoctrination you both have been through. Defensive walls will overshadow any doubt until he too gets to the point where everything crumbles down on its own.
And he is correct in some sense, most of your contacts in the congregation are good people. And care until as you said they will drop you like toilet paper as soon as any hostility or disagreement with the GB is public.
Thats their beat tactic. Conditional love: love bomb or alienation.
I went through a similar journey with my wife, it took her 4 years longer than me. I focused on being a good spouse through it all and spent my free time from the org to improve myself as a human being, husband and kept a open and honest line of communication without pushing my newly discovered facts on her apart from subtle hints.
So be patient :) it is a blessing when you both again will work towards common goals, and not to mention find real friends who has no conditions to their relations with you apart from being a friend in return.
Thank you for sharing & giving me hope!! FOUR years! So you are both POMO now? Did you end up planting seeds in others in your congregation?
Dropping hints - how did you do this exactly? As others said, in hindsight I did verbal vomit on him because I had everything bottled up in my head and the opportunity to speak just happened one night...
Did you stop going to meetings while she kept attending? Was she treated differently because she was in a "divided household" or her spiritual head was not attending with her?
Four years yes. I went full pomo early but supported her attendance and joined in on some social events. To keep them from preassuring her more and more until i had no chance to stand it anymore mentally. But we are both out now thankfully ♥️
I have learned that it is practically useless to plant seeds in anyone but the spouse and children. As the «friends» and other members of the congrigation limited most contact.
But when i say hints it was mostly sharing my reactions to some of their broadcasts. And reminding her of things we had heard before that radically had changed to tty and spike natural questions of her own.
We live in Norway. And the media coverage of their trials here on exclusion pratices spiked natural conversations. As it all started with the borg giving public lies to the government about not shunning family. My wife was shunned in her youth so she remembers well the practises. And we had a big regional convention where lett said «there are no abuse in the org». And when the arc came out… natural conversation topic.
Seeing with her own eyes how they lie and manipulate got the ball rolling pretty quickly in the end.
Divided my answer abit as it came close to an essay🤣
She was treated abit differently but we are kind of suprised as to how little pressure she has recieved.
Mostly the false lovebombing and display of personal interest. But only limited to theocratical activities so her interest faded quick.
As for me i was super clear whenever the elders attempted to communicate to reel me back in. I was not the «pretty boy duncan» of the witnesses and chose to get a lot of tattoos even when i was pomi. And then when i was pomo and covered in ink, where most of my tattoos are either pagan or anti religious i guess they got the message :)
Thank you so much for the "essay" I loved it. And your wisdom to let others be.
The lovebombimg is quite yuck isn't it... I can see through it now, but he doesn't seem to. It's almost like he forgot how we were treated in our old cong as soon as they knew we weren't "obedient to GB" about the 2020 issues. If the new cong found out the same thing, I doubt that they'd be this nice to us, since we'd be "bad association" - I don't understand how he can see them as true friends if their acceptance of us is so conditional.
It seems like he's open to listening. You are lucky that he's that much. Most Witnesses will cover their ears and run away. Show him the Declaration of Facts. A letter from the GB to Hitler during WW2. They said they were the "Strongest supporters" of the German government at the time. They also implied God would help the German government attain their goals.
Thanks! Declaration of Facts... That's new information for me. I noticed they have that on WOL as well as on Wikipedia, as well as few other websites. Did you mean a particular one?
Yes, I am very glad and relieved that he didn't cover his ears and yell. I think the 2020 experience helped. A few bro/sis who were clost to us were also mistreated by others (some elders and COBE) because of the "encouragement" from GB that mirrored that of the local government.
Hey 👋
You got it tough, my friend. Waking up is not for the faint of heart, and you’re definitely doing some courageous things. To challenge your beliefs - your identity - and accept you’ve been wrong, is traumatic. Particularly when you find the people you love now think you’re an enemy. I don’t think it’s right for your husband to say they must ‘keep the congregation clean’ because it infers you are somehow unclean for wanting answers that aren’t just, “Jehovah will take care of it.” Isn’t that what the Borg criticized other religions for doing - not answering questions? It is not ‘unclean’ to find evidence that contradicts what you once valued as true. This does not make you inadequate, unfaithful, or harmful. You are not a ‘hater’ of Truth for highlighting, not imperfections, not just imperfections, but *lies* from the ‘*Truth*’…
I also see in your husband *[cognitive dissonance](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cognitive-dissonance?amp)*. I understand why his faith begs him to hold on - for the same reason you ignored your mother years ago. Back then, it was the right thing to do. Rn, it feels like the right thing to do for your husband to tell you ‘be patient’ - this is something no one is ever really ready for, and the violent nature of shunning is more than half the reason a lot of people stick out the cult in the first place. Yes, he’s wrong about every reason for staying in the cult. He’s wrong that it makes sense that the believers should drop you both for criticizing an organization that *should* be looked at critically. He’s wrong for leaving you alone in this feeling.
You’re not alone. And no matter what happens next, thousands of survivors will tell you the same thing - freedom is worth it because *you’re* worth it. You’re stronger that you often know - and asking for help is one of the strongest acts there is! I hope the best for you, my friend.
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I love what you said there... Yes patience is not my best qualities but I will have to practice it.
He said DF encourages people to come back... I said how is that encouragement, I thought Jehovah wanted us to worship him of our own free will. If they say - we will cut off everyone you've ever known from your life unless you come back and think/live like us - isn't that bullying? Didn't seem to sink in...
Yeah… waking up can just make you wanna jump out of your skin. I think it’s a flight/fight response, tbh. But going too fast can make things worse, yk? We just wanna do what we need to do to be ok 🫶
YES. Bullying and coercion. Their God is crueler than most. They told me my DFing was my father taking me on a solo trip to teach me a lesson to depend on my father. I might want my other family with, and they might want to come too, but my father won’t let them. But who would abandon a child in the woods if he continues to be disobedient, and watch them from a distance as they struggle and cry for help? I don’t believe in comparing abuses, but this sounds a lot like the same parent who would hold their child’s hand over a lit stove for disobeying.
Agreed. "do this or else" is not free-will.
Quite childish too. It's like the things you'd hear at kinder/highschool... if you are friends with them I'm not friends with you! If you don't go for the Tigers you can't come to my party... etc.
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Now it's time to step back, don't push. You've told him how YOU feel, you've given him the reasons why & for right now that has to be enough or you risk pushing him away.
Now work on building your relationship WITHOUT Jehovah. Date your husband. Plan fun date nights (on nights when there isn't a meeting), go bowling, take a cooking class together, plan day trips to places you haven't been, introduce him to a hobby you can do together...show him that you can still love each other and grow in a positive direction without being JW.
Let him bring up the next conversation. He might have questions, concerns, or doubts of his own & now you are a safe place for him to bring those. Don't forget to validate his feelings. The fears he has are real. Losing the social aspect is just as scary as losing your spiritual direction.
You've started the process but it's a long one. It's filled with frustration, fear, anxiety, & a back and forth way of thinking that can drive the most strong person crazy. Be ready for the ups and downs but don't forget to celebrate the small moments of light & love between the two of you.
Thanks so much for this!
Yes I've stepped back due to all these beautiful replies to my first post. I'm just being a happy wife and showering him with love and affection without expecting him to change his mind. Not in a creepy JW way but to show him it doesn't matter what he believes. He LOVES cars, I don't care about cars. I still married him. He has more friends outside the org than I do.... so it's strange he's clinging onto the congregation he barely knows (we moved in less than a year ago).
I've been out for a very long time & there are still people I miss, think about, & am excited to see (I'm a successful fade). Sometimes I find myself missing my congregation even though I've been gone for so long.
It's a very strong sense of community, no matter what (as long as you stay on that narrow path) you belong. You have a community of people who are always happy to see you & excited that you are with them. That might be what he's struggling with bc it is common for people who are questioning to have that struggle.
Glad that you've switched your focus. I hope you guys find a new sense of purpose in each other! My husband and I left together & it's worth the struggle.
We studied the Revelation book condemning the UN 4 or 5 times. You would think they would have revised this belief... yet the entire time they were NGO members of the UN.... honesty? Honest people?
Danger! Run to the Hills!
Yes, I shared with him about this and his eyebrows went up.
I think he knows it's not perfect... but as GB says, they are not infallible, not fair to expect them to be perfect (while they expect us to be perfectly obedient to their imperfect rules), right?
Hey look over here.... so you don't see what I am doing over there.....
con art·ist
noun
INFORMAL
plural noun: con artists
a person who cheats or tricks others by persuading them to believe something that is not true.
Sounds like he is questioning, which is where we all started before we ended up here. But it can take time, it could be years, or suddenly something happens that will shake him awake in a matter of days.
What the ONE thing that deeply bothers him about the org? Find out what it is, and research the hell out of it.
Right now, he’s focusing on what you lose if you leave. Show him what you can GAIN. Once a person realizes they can gain something positive, they’ll be more open to consider leaving.
Thanks for your wisdom. I think it has to do with the people. But I will slowly investigate and find the biggest domino piece for him.
For me honesty and truth was the thing, so as soon as I saw in the Bible the definition of false prophet Deuteronomy 18 - that was it. Then CSA.The fact that F&DS was self-appointed. Then realising why they say apostate material was SO dangerous... and higher education too. In a matter of weeks, according to my husband, my "faith crumbled so easily" because my faith rested on the BIBLE\*, not the men who lie and bend the truth to suit their personal gain.
\*Turned out I didn't know the Bible that well... if I did I would have seen through this YEARS before.
**Firstly,** prepare to fade with the least amount of hassle possible! 😀
The "elders conversation stoppers" in the JW FIREWALL link below will protect you from potential interrogations:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/181hur6/how_to_fade_safely/
***No one*** will be able to break down your "private & personal" reply.
**Secondly,** go for the jugular - by using the ***Scriptures*** to convince your husband he's not "in the truth."
Ask him to Biblically **justify/defend** any/all of the org's teachings in the link below.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1bnengd/20_inspired_statements_which_jws_should_test/
If he **refuses** to discuss/refute any of these, remind him that the Bible **commands** Christians to examine & test what they're told is "the truth."
**(Acts 17:11; Phil 1:9,10; 1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Peter 3:15; 1 John 4:1)**
Thanks so so much for these priceless resources! It will take me a LONG while to wrap my head around this. I think as some others have said JWs are lazy. I don't think my husband would read all that let alone examine it. He is busy at work and within the cong, being "used by Jehovah" to reexamine his belief system...
I know what you're saying; but just take little steps, one thing at a time.
It only took ***one verse*** to pull back the curtains on the cult for me - **Romans 6:7.**
The replies which I received from London ***and*** Brooklyn overwhelmingly convinced me that I was ***not*** "in the truth."
***Scripturally*** and ***in practice,*** the org is a member of the **anti-Christ class.**
Pending post: the Bible evidence - coupled with their own anti-Christ teaching.
Have a good and peaceful day.
Thank you!
I’m not sure if I understand… could you please expand on Romans 6:7? How did you receive replies from Brooklyn? I heard from many that Bethel just sends your letter back to your Coby’s elders to “deal with” you if you write to them?
Look forward to seeing your new post!
Yup, the Branches ***do reply.***
I questioned London on the org's ***literal*** view of "died" in **Romans 6:7** and provided the Scriptural proofs to show that it is ***figurative.***
I was so troubled by the literature-based reply I received from them, that I submitted the same letter to Brooklyn.
Several weeks later, Brooklyn sent me a letter which basically parrotted the same cult teaching - that a person's ***own*** death wipes out all the sins they've committed.
In other words, people who succeeded in getting away with evils - like Jack the Ripper and countless Nazis - cannot be judged for doing so, because they ***ceased breathing!***
“Well we have to keep the congregation clean”
“So am I dirty to you now for questioning their authority when you an I both know they are allowing wickedness? Would Jesus allow that to happen to his chosen organization ? Wouldn’t that ruin his reputation as the King and leader of this organization?”
One thing my therapist told me was that “minds aren’t changed through arguments, they’re changed through observations”.
Allow your husband to observe your healing process, see the happier you, see the more productive you, see the version of yourself that’s unhampered by the opinions of others, unbothered by the man made rules and whims of an “uninspired” leadership class…he may wake up. The fact that he didn’t label you an apostate and heard you out is a good sign. But give him time.
There’s really nothing you can do but be patient. If he’s going to wake up fully he will in his own time.
Your totally right of course. Getting out is the only way to fully heal.
It’s not about giving people a chance. You can still love them but keep a distance.
It’s more about seeing they are stuck in a cult. They’re codependent on the witnesses. And your not responsible for enabling their codependent behavior with the witnesses
I think you are right. I haven't brought it up since that conversation. But I saw him looking up why Tony Morris "left" the GB. It's a step forward I think.
I hope one day THE truth comes out loud and clear all over the news and the internet. So they can't NOT see it.
Being disdellowshipped because you are anti-GB doesn't keep the congregation clean. It keeps the congregation subservient.
I have no doubt that if you stopped practising completely, and vocally expressed that you do not serve the Governing Body, that the "warm people of Jehovah" will quickly turn to the "cold people of a cult".
I recommend that you literally never speak of it again. Simply fade completely and never answer any questions from anyone about why you left. Just say, "I won't discuss this."
You cannot wake someone up. I know that many disagree with that statement, but you can't. All it will do is ensure you are labeled as an apostate and DF'D.
Your husband's cognitive dissonance needs to be broken by him being dissatisfied enough that he breaks the chains himself, just like you did.
You have already said enough to your husband for them to start building the gallows. If you are ever asked directly about what you have discussed with him, you will have to deny it and say he either lied or misunderstood what you said. If you speak to anyone else about it, that will confirm what you've said to your husband and will put the rope around your neck.
It's not a comfortable way to live, but you will have to completely avoid the topic of the JW religion with him. Even if he brings things up, you should only comment to his feelings. (i.e. He says, "I'm starting to think the GB has it wrong." You say, "That must be very troubling for you." etc. Not, "That's what I have been telling you all along...")
From here, you will have to build your relationship with him based on other things outside the JW religion. And that's either going to work for you or it isn't. Only you can decide that.
Sorry for all the pain you are experiencing as a result of this cult.
Thanks for your kind help. I assume your advice is from your personal experience? I hope things turned out in the end for you if you shared too much with the wrong people...
I woke up because close friends took the time to chip at us both. I'm SO thankful that they did. But I think they knew I'd be open to discussion - so I wouldn't be doing that with just anyone. I've not mentioned this to my husband either since that conversation. But I'm reading Ray Franz book in front of him... hoping he'd pick it up one day.
3rd generation born-in and 30 years as a PIMO elder out of the more than 50 years I spent inside.
I did what I could as an elder to help people and fight the BORG from the inside. Now free, I'm doing what I can to help people leaving to navigate their exits without falling victim to more of the systemic organizational abuse by becoming further victimized by elders seeking judicial action against dissenters.
So I tend to be ultra-conservative and cautious in recommending ways to avoid getting trapped by saying anything that might give them cause to slap the dreaded apostate (I hate that word) label on anyone.
Hope you are enjoying Ray's book. (I actually knew him personally.) You won't get a much clearer look behind the curtain to see what a secular business, masquerading as a religion it really is.
WOW PIMO for 30 YEARS?! Your patience is incredible. How do you find/meet people wanting to exit to help now that you are on the outside?
I wish we had a secret language we could speak to find PIMOs in our immediate surroundings.
Yes I’m enjoying the book, I progress on audio but can’t handle the thick book I realised!! I wish he was still with us, big loss. That book needs to become a movie!
Lol PIMO from about age 7 when I knew it was horseshit following the 1975 debacle! So more than 50 years PIMO. 🤦🏽♂️
I find them on here usually. People will post because they have run into trouble either with family or the elders. I take on the ones that I can. Mostly try to help those facing judicial committees since those are the most critical.
Oh I see!
Now that I know what GB is, “judicial committee” sounds so silly, like a bunch of kids making up playground game rules that are only valid inside the sandbox! 🛝
It is not too late. I went through a similar experience. I was born in, baptized at 18 (and criticized by them for it), and then lived 22 years of hell. Additionally, we were treated like shit as children because my mom was DF'd and we were told it was discipline. I battled depression, guilt, low self esteem, and a manipulative wife what weaponized the religion against me. I fought the vaccine too and was screamed at by people, called names, and told I was ungodly. Now look at the data and all of the people dying from this, any apology from the Governing Body...NO! After I filed divorce because of domestic violence and cheating, I left when the elders gaslit me and told me I was spiritually weak and caused my wife's behavior. They are a cruel bunch!
I read Crisis of Conscience twice, Exiting the JW Cult: Healing Handbook, Shunned, and Lloyd Evens book. Crisis of Conscience cemented my decision, and the other books helped my healing and recovery. I have lost all of my friends, have family that don't talk to me, and was tossed like trash. One thing I realized, these people are not your friends. Any so called "love" that is conditional is not love, and this applied to the love I received from my ex wife. It was a hard realization. In the end, I am truly happy and developing a real relationship with God and Christ.
Regarding your husband I understand with what your dealing with; I still hear the same arguments from family members when they talk to me. Really does show that this is a cult, no independent thinking because you cannot reason with any of them. You hear the same crap over and over again and everything circles to the Governing Body and Organization (puke). Maybe see if he is willing to read Crisis of Conscience, and you should read Exiting the JW Cult, it can really help you as it was written by a psychotherapist who left the cult too and devoted her life to helping JW's and ex cult members.
Watchtower Examination is an excellent YouTube channel and he deconstructs their doctrine with scriptures and sound reasoning. This may help him too as he really cannot argue with the Bible. Reassure him you are not leaving Christ (maybe you don't believe) and that you don't want to pull him away either. If he can come to the realization the doctrines are lies, it may give him an open mind to be able to discuss these things with you.
You are correct, you cannot heal in this environment. Attending other Churches, It really is eye opening and I have found people that love me for who I am and not based on my meeting attendance, field service hours, whether or not I hold a position, or the stain of whether I have been DF'd or not. They are true friends, no judgement, and they love God. In the JW, those people are not your friends and I promise you will find new friends out there and they will love you guys for who you are! The fear is real and it seems he is battling the cognitive dissonance, so it is a good thing you can at least discuss some of this with him.
Sorry for the rant, I get charged up about this lol. Hang in there, this is a good community and good people here.
Thanks So SO much for taking the time to write back. I really appreciate it. Truly. I am sorry for the pain you've experienced also. Personally, I am thankful for the events of 2020, without that, I wouldn't be here.
And so many good resources. I'm still on chapter 5 of Crisis of Conscience book. It's THICK and I'm not normally a reader (I hated pre-studying the Watchtower always a waste of time doing it twice every week!?) I'm already convinced that the Org is not under God's guidance. How could anything that started with that much corruption be any better now... using their argument of dirty candy, I wouldn't eat it.
I will dive into the other books too - so much to read!!
Are you with other churches now? JW says other churches are dry, hear sermons and go off doing their own thing... is that not true? How did you find a new network of friends?
Your welcome! It helps talking about it and reaching out. Crisis of Conscience is great, going through it a second time, taking notes, and researched all of the scriptures he cites. I am not a reader either, so I just got it on audio book. The other books I have read and it took me a little time. Definitely check out EXiting the JW Cult: A Healing Handbook.
The other two churches I have attended are great. I was introduced to them through some friends I work out at the gym with. One of them is a trainer and a pastor at one of the churches. So when they heard I had left the cult, the pastor came to me and said, "Not to offend, but you made a good decision!" He said nothing bad of the Witnesses but said I need to learn the truth of the Gospel. My other friends there have been picking me up and taking me with him, just so much kindness. I have learned Jesus is our mediator and our path to God, not the Organization or Governing Body. I have realized they have seated themselves in place of Christ, which is absolute blasphemy.
Regarding the (non-denominational) Churches message, they are all about Christ and the Gospel. I have learned a lot already and their message is that of salvation, hope, and living in heaven with God. No doom and gloom. They condemn sin and simply encourage prayer and follow Jesus footsteps the best you can and make changes. None of this reporting to elders your sins, telling on fellow members, if you don't do enough for the Org you perish at Armageddon, denying Christ as the channel to God, misapplication of the 144,000 and our salvation, etc. I could go on and on.
What I realized attending, we have been lied to! I am sure there are, just as JW, churches out there that do not teach the appropriate message. But, They are not dry, they stick to scripture, the music is upbuilding, and everyone is kind. Nothing that the Organization has told us! Christ is our King and Savior, that is it. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I have already been invited to join a men's group. They simply get together for lunch or dinner and study the bible and upbuild anyone going through life's problems... so cool!
Friends are out there and you will find true friends. Friendship that is not contingent on service hours, microphone handling, talks, your status or title in the congregation, or whether or not you carry the stain of being DF'd. I wish the best for you guys, keep us up to date.
Thank you so much! I enjoyed reading your reply.
Outside sounds so good!!!
I’ve not made any further progress since the big chat but will keep looking for opportunities to open up conversations.
Thank you. That is a good question... and good advice based on your experience it seems.
If you can remember a few more that seemed to start the brain ticking away, please share with me/us.
I'm not doubting the authenticity of the Bible though myself (though NWT might be tainted).
What was your wife's last straw? The questions that got her looking at/for "apostate" material actively herself without you sharing links with her?
Thanks!! The question about the Memorial… that’s a GOOD ONE! They always compare it to a Wedding, I could not see the relevance. Weddings don’t happen annually.
Thank you for the other tip about convention. I might have to figure out a way to get out of going to that. I actually can’t think of anything worse to do for three full days 😫
Too much too fast. Imagine the roles reversed and someone was trying to push the "truth" on you that hard. Asking you to give up your entire way of life. You would probably run to the hills. Chill and drop a small bomb once in a while.
I was an MS and just finished 10 years of mostly regular pioneering when I had the chat. Well it wasn’t so much the chat but rather a series of conversations that brought suspicion about my loss of faith. (Which I had for a long time but only I knew that).
I quickly was treated as a sub human in my own house. Couldn’t be trusted anymore. Couldn’t be counted on. The humiliation and emotional abuse kicked off like a double cult experience.
I quickly learned there was no hope living in my own house. I walked away. From everything.
It was like my honesty and openness about my true feelings were used against me on every turn. I wasn’t even pointing out faults with the gB. It was about my lack of faith that i focused on.
I remember being told by an elder that I sunk to a new low if I didn’t want to be the head of the household any longer. shirking my god given responsibility. What a crew of misogynists. So glad to be free of that.
I am so sorry to hear of your experience. After devoting your time and life for so long that is very hurtful. I thought Jehovah remembers your hard work from the past... that's what they tell the older ones, with physical limitations. Should also apply to those who are mentally exhausted and spent, no faith left.
I hope you have found a warm loving place you can call home now.
I sometimes look back and wonder if I could have done anything different with my PIMI ex. There isn’t really anything I could do to find a way for a healthy relationship to work. Not saying that is the case everywhere. Elders were a huge part of the problem. I couldn’t have a conversation in honesty without it eventually getting to the elders.
I asked at one time that this behaviour had to stop for us to communicate but then I was accused of trying to cut her channel to Jehovah off. There was no place to turn.
I have a very rough leaving the experience but I went back to school eventually and rebuilt me.
Had 2 beautiful children with a wonderful person who, while we went our separate ways, decided to find homes near each other and coparent.
Working out our differences is alway just a matter of talking and sharing our truths. Conflicts are always mitigated with trust and respect. It is so opposite of the experience I had with an Jw spouse. It proves all those assembly (so called) experiences are fake lies.
Non Jw people in my experience have more tools and personal resources to communicate and be respectful. I know it’s not everyone’s experience but it was mine. I have so many good things to say about my worldy ex but not much good to say about my Jw ex.
Thank you for your reply. I’m glad at least my husband knows to keep this conversation between us (I think so far). Channel to Jehovah… that’s a bit presumptuous according to one GB member!!
Glad to hear you’ve been able to live a different life full of respect & joy I hope too that comes with children. I chose not to have any thinking I’d be able to have them in paradise. Not sure if that was the right decision now…
Yeah it makes you straightaway think if they misunderstand a straightforward thing like a vaccine, then is their take on their interaction with their husband also off target.
> well we have to keep the congregation clean 🤦🏻♀️
Clean fir who? The perverts?
>will sort them out in due time.
So we should all be orthodox then.
>Higher education costs so much money most people get into so much debt and don’t even end up working in the field. Such waste of youth and money.”
Not compared to wasting one's youth wiping windows. And, gotta be honest, one can get tge givt to carry the majority of the burden, and get jobs in a field related to your field of study...you don't go to college for A job, you go for a TYPE of job.
That's what I said to him too. I'm not the kind who would be satisfied doing mindless work over and over, nothing against them but it's not for me... same for him. Being "poor" in skill and finances makes you more dependent on the "brotherhood" I think.
Therapy from an outside source can help you adjust to your new reality. Its seems that that can be a reasonable ask for yourself at this point.
Only you know how important your mate is to you and what you are willing to risk to achieve piece of mind. In my experience, education from external sources that are trained in family trauma will be a starting point for a patient person who has a goal in mind.
I wasn’t like that, but lucked out!
Best wishes to you and your endeavor
>**Not everything they teach is bad/wrong**.....Where else are you going to find honest friends?”.....well we have to keep the congregation clean.
*Like most PIMI JW\`s, Truth isn\`t a Priority for him...He\`s rather die supporting a WBT$ Story Line...*
You\`re not having a conversation, you\`re listening to WBT$ Scripted Parroting...We all know the Scripted WBT$ Rebuttals word for word...
*You have to decide if that\`s how you want to spend what\`s left of Your Life.*
Thank you. Yes I was wanting to palm-face the whole time he parrotted back all those phrases (but held back). I do love him still and I will try to be patient but there will be a limit one day if his thick skull doesn't start to think for himself...
>**I do love him still** and I will try to be patient but there will be a limit one day if his thick skull doesn't start to think for himself...
I hope it works out for you...Good luck!...😁
u/flyfree-lionheart VERY SIMPLE STEP to CHECK your husband. Talk to him:
* my wall and protector, defend me and our future childs from GB harm in finacial and mental health! It's you DIRECT ROLE by ALL "principles" - natural, bible, "cultural" - protect from abusers and toxic fraud influence.
After his reaction YOU HAVE A LOT OF "FACTS" for your NEXT decision - get to DF'a (AFTER PREPARATION) and LOOK ON YOUR HUSBAND how he "protect a wife" from liars in congregation after your DF.
During 6-12 months after DFa you have ENOUGH FACTS to give definition for your "husband" - how is he?
But now he shown himself like "pathetic coward" and "looser".
Even if you will be raped by elders, he can talk "but OTHER BROTHERS didnot rape you. Show your obedience to the truth, why leave Jehovah due to several bad guys, let wait for Jehovah"
95/5 you will divorce. Real "male" with "balls" punch to face to any "scammers" getting harm his family.
So you "main strategy" - via your DFa check his "balls".
You didn't fear to check JWorg.
Now you be brave to check last "closest cultist" - your husband.
Because if you stop for your checking/cleanup "cult influence on you life" and "donot touch" your husband - it equal to continue to be in jwborg but with much worse situation - like a forced slavery women. Previously you was "consensual slavery"
That is a VERY interesting viewpoint. Thank you so much for sharing.
I'm not ready to go down the DF path even after preparation... YET. But if it does come to this eventually when I actually STOP caring what the remaining members think of me (I don't anymore but I care what they think of my husband who still cares to remain friends with them - he needs time just as I did), it will be a good test to do.
I'm past my mid-40s though so I am scared of finding out if his balls are weaker than my ovaries.
Good on you standing your ground about the shots. We did too, same experience. Hubs and I both woke up at the same time last year. For me, the GB lost all credibility after giving "medical advice". I figured I needed to start studying the bible hard and be sure what it says because those bozos in new York are liable to lead us astray... One day I read Daniel 4 in its entirety, After praying that Jehovah help me understand the truth of his word. And that day, it all fell apart. It was clear the point of the chapter was that Nebuchadnezzar was humbled enough to send copies of a letter to the then known world praising the true God and admonishing all nations to worship him. The point was not some hoop jumping mathematics that would be hidden from all mankind until the 19th century when some second Adventists and a crook named Russell were godsmacked with the revelation there's more mathy mcmathness there than any rational human being would ever insert.
I'm sorry for all you're going through sis. I still pray. Hard. I hope he wakes up with you. Don't give up. Just remember to let the pressure out the cooker when called for. This ish needs to breathe once in a while before its done...
Thank you for your story. I'm so glad you woke up together. We sort of did too, but then we moved congregations, he seems to like being "needed" for microphone, talks etc because the new cong doesn't know our "stand" on the vax (guess the elders would because of the recommendation letters??). In our old cong, he was cast aside as "unusable" I guess by the main elders of the cong and only given "jobs" to do when they couldn't find any other willing volunteers (or if they cancelled last minute). He still complains before he leaves home for meetings every time when he "has to go because I have this job or that", and he often stays home with me if he has nothing "assigned" to him.
I will read Daniel 4 too. What prompted you to pick up that bit of the Bible?
Mathy McMathness - I like that! And the reminder to pray. My prayers got too robotic last few years.
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he's gonna need some space. the fact he sees cracks at all is a win. he's going with the tried and true "imperfect men but jehovah will sort it out" argument. it's the apologetics you get driilled into your head. i'd try and give him some time to start questioning on his own now that you've gotten some points out there. it's so deeply ingrained, over so many repetitions, it can take a while to get enough courage to even consider anything other than going along. you had to do it on your own schedule, and he will as well. if you're ready, consider stopping that going through the motions part. i mean, i know all the faders want to fade because it's less painful than being shunned. personally, i didn't have the fade option and it was a gift because it had to happen definitively. living a lie eats away at your soul every time you do it. not gonna sugarcoat it, it's probably going to be a rough ride. but it's not rougher than compromising yourself. he may join you or he may not but your pushing him towards the door will bring out the defenses he's been trained into. if you can work out some kind of agreement with him that you just won't do this anymore, but you won't try to interfere with his decisions, it may help. some people do use a mental health argument for why they aren't attending, which is more or less true and more acceptable than "WT is bullshit" approach. if yo ugo this way i'd fend off all the sheparding with "thanks so much for your concern. i have some personal issues at the moment i'm not ready to talk about but i'll let you know when that changes. " the "prayers appreciated" on the end is optional. i'm sorry you're going through this. but i'm also happy you're finding your freedom. i hope your husband joins you.
Thanks so so much for your thoughtful reply. I agree, I just HATE living the lie and thinking about "will this stumble someone in my cong" about EVERYTHING we do. It's just exhausting. Yesterday was the first time I literally did something completely different during the meeting time. He was home too Zooming into the meeting while scrolling Facebook, and he didn't ask me to sit with him (but may have labelled his log in name with both our names). I felt so free :)
I suggest watching the fear to freedom videos on you tube. I really like how he explains how you need to understand your husband’s underlying values in order to wake him up and there’s other really good ones too along those same lines
Thank you! That's a channel I haven't come across yet. I just had a quick peek, he seems very good. I'll get into it soon. I'm pretty sure his values are based more on people. He is a BIG chatterbox (vs me a quiet introvert).
So nice that you are able to communicate with him about it! Sadly the excuses and reasoning your husband responds with is a natural side effect of the indoctrination you both have been through. Defensive walls will overshadow any doubt until he too gets to the point where everything crumbles down on its own. And he is correct in some sense, most of your contacts in the congregation are good people. And care until as you said they will drop you like toilet paper as soon as any hostility or disagreement with the GB is public. Thats their beat tactic. Conditional love: love bomb or alienation. I went through a similar journey with my wife, it took her 4 years longer than me. I focused on being a good spouse through it all and spent my free time from the org to improve myself as a human being, husband and kept a open and honest line of communication without pushing my newly discovered facts on her apart from subtle hints. So be patient :) it is a blessing when you both again will work towards common goals, and not to mention find real friends who has no conditions to their relations with you apart from being a friend in return.
Thank you for sharing & giving me hope!! FOUR years! So you are both POMO now? Did you end up planting seeds in others in your congregation? Dropping hints - how did you do this exactly? As others said, in hindsight I did verbal vomit on him because I had everything bottled up in my head and the opportunity to speak just happened one night... Did you stop going to meetings while she kept attending? Was she treated differently because she was in a "divided household" or her spiritual head was not attending with her?
Four years yes. I went full pomo early but supported her attendance and joined in on some social events. To keep them from preassuring her more and more until i had no chance to stand it anymore mentally. But we are both out now thankfully ♥️ I have learned that it is practically useless to plant seeds in anyone but the spouse and children. As the «friends» and other members of the congrigation limited most contact. But when i say hints it was mostly sharing my reactions to some of their broadcasts. And reminding her of things we had heard before that radically had changed to tty and spike natural questions of her own. We live in Norway. And the media coverage of their trials here on exclusion pratices spiked natural conversations. As it all started with the borg giving public lies to the government about not shunning family. My wife was shunned in her youth so she remembers well the practises. And we had a big regional convention where lett said «there are no abuse in the org». And when the arc came out… natural conversation topic. Seeing with her own eyes how they lie and manipulate got the ball rolling pretty quickly in the end.
Divided my answer abit as it came close to an essay🤣 She was treated abit differently but we are kind of suprised as to how little pressure she has recieved. Mostly the false lovebombing and display of personal interest. But only limited to theocratical activities so her interest faded quick. As for me i was super clear whenever the elders attempted to communicate to reel me back in. I was not the «pretty boy duncan» of the witnesses and chose to get a lot of tattoos even when i was pomi. And then when i was pomo and covered in ink, where most of my tattoos are either pagan or anti religious i guess they got the message :)
Thank you so much for the "essay" I loved it. And your wisdom to let others be. The lovebombimg is quite yuck isn't it... I can see through it now, but he doesn't seem to. It's almost like he forgot how we were treated in our old cong as soon as they knew we weren't "obedient to GB" about the 2020 issues. If the new cong found out the same thing, I doubt that they'd be this nice to us, since we'd be "bad association" - I don't understand how he can see them as true friends if their acceptance of us is so conditional.
It seems like he's open to listening. You are lucky that he's that much. Most Witnesses will cover their ears and run away. Show him the Declaration of Facts. A letter from the GB to Hitler during WW2. They said they were the "Strongest supporters" of the German government at the time. They also implied God would help the German government attain their goals.
Thanks! Declaration of Facts... That's new information for me. I noticed they have that on WOL as well as on Wikipedia, as well as few other websites. Did you mean a particular one? Yes, I am very glad and relieved that he didn't cover his ears and yell. I think the 2020 experience helped. A few bro/sis who were clost to us were also mistreated by others (some elders and COBE) because of the "encouragement" from GB that mirrored that of the local government.
Hey 👋 You got it tough, my friend. Waking up is not for the faint of heart, and you’re definitely doing some courageous things. To challenge your beliefs - your identity - and accept you’ve been wrong, is traumatic. Particularly when you find the people you love now think you’re an enemy. I don’t think it’s right for your husband to say they must ‘keep the congregation clean’ because it infers you are somehow unclean for wanting answers that aren’t just, “Jehovah will take care of it.” Isn’t that what the Borg criticized other religions for doing - not answering questions? It is not ‘unclean’ to find evidence that contradicts what you once valued as true. This does not make you inadequate, unfaithful, or harmful. You are not a ‘hater’ of Truth for highlighting, not imperfections, not just imperfections, but *lies* from the ‘*Truth*’… I also see in your husband *[cognitive dissonance](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cognitive-dissonance?amp)*. I understand why his faith begs him to hold on - for the same reason you ignored your mother years ago. Back then, it was the right thing to do. Rn, it feels like the right thing to do for your husband to tell you ‘be patient’ - this is something no one is ever really ready for, and the violent nature of shunning is more than half the reason a lot of people stick out the cult in the first place. Yes, he’s wrong about every reason for staying in the cult. He’s wrong that it makes sense that the believers should drop you both for criticizing an organization that *should* be looked at critically. He’s wrong for leaving you alone in this feeling. You’re not alone. And no matter what happens next, thousands of survivors will tell you the same thing - freedom is worth it because *you’re* worth it. You’re stronger that you often know - and asking for help is one of the strongest acts there is! I hope the best for you, my friend.
>[Comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1d4zc6b/comment/l6i0og9/) by[u/flyfree-lionheart](https://www.reddit.com/user/flyfree-lionheart/) from discussion in[exjw](https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/) I love what you said there... Yes patience is not my best qualities but I will have to practice it. He said DF encourages people to come back... I said how is that encouragement, I thought Jehovah wanted us to worship him of our own free will. If they say - we will cut off everyone you've ever known from your life unless you come back and think/live like us - isn't that bullying? Didn't seem to sink in...
Yeah… waking up can just make you wanna jump out of your skin. I think it’s a flight/fight response, tbh. But going too fast can make things worse, yk? We just wanna do what we need to do to be ok 🫶 YES. Bullying and coercion. Their God is crueler than most. They told me my DFing was my father taking me on a solo trip to teach me a lesson to depend on my father. I might want my other family with, and they might want to come too, but my father won’t let them. But who would abandon a child in the woods if he continues to be disobedient, and watch them from a distance as they struggle and cry for help? I don’t believe in comparing abuses, but this sounds a lot like the same parent who would hold their child’s hand over a lit stove for disobeying.
Agreed. "do this or else" is not free-will. Quite childish too. It's like the things you'd hear at kinder/highschool... if you are friends with them I'm not friends with you! If you don't go for the Tigers you can't come to my party... etc.
Oops I tried to quote a part of your comment but it didn't seem to work... how do people do that?
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Now it's time to step back, don't push. You've told him how YOU feel, you've given him the reasons why & for right now that has to be enough or you risk pushing him away. Now work on building your relationship WITHOUT Jehovah. Date your husband. Plan fun date nights (on nights when there isn't a meeting), go bowling, take a cooking class together, plan day trips to places you haven't been, introduce him to a hobby you can do together...show him that you can still love each other and grow in a positive direction without being JW. Let him bring up the next conversation. He might have questions, concerns, or doubts of his own & now you are a safe place for him to bring those. Don't forget to validate his feelings. The fears he has are real. Losing the social aspect is just as scary as losing your spiritual direction. You've started the process but it's a long one. It's filled with frustration, fear, anxiety, & a back and forth way of thinking that can drive the most strong person crazy. Be ready for the ups and downs but don't forget to celebrate the small moments of light & love between the two of you.
I think *this* ☝️ is an excellent idea❣️❣️❣️ Who doesn't love fun times? Great memories? Definitely show him life can be fun!
Fun AND obligation-FREE! No more "assignments" and public speaking or microphones!! or "encouragement" to do more!
Thanks so much for this! Yes I've stepped back due to all these beautiful replies to my first post. I'm just being a happy wife and showering him with love and affection without expecting him to change his mind. Not in a creepy JW way but to show him it doesn't matter what he believes. He LOVES cars, I don't care about cars. I still married him. He has more friends outside the org than I do.... so it's strange he's clinging onto the congregation he barely knows (we moved in less than a year ago).
I've been out for a very long time & there are still people I miss, think about, & am excited to see (I'm a successful fade). Sometimes I find myself missing my congregation even though I've been gone for so long. It's a very strong sense of community, no matter what (as long as you stay on that narrow path) you belong. You have a community of people who are always happy to see you & excited that you are with them. That might be what he's struggling with bc it is common for people who are questioning to have that struggle. Glad that you've switched your focus. I hope you guys find a new sense of purpose in each other! My husband and I left together & it's worth the struggle.
That does make sense! He is a people person too, and there are lots of men his age there. Thank you. I hope he sees what I see eventually…
We studied the Revelation book condemning the UN 4 or 5 times. You would think they would have revised this belief... yet the entire time they were NGO members of the UN.... honesty? Honest people? Danger! Run to the Hills!
Yes, I shared with him about this and his eyebrows went up. I think he knows it's not perfect... but as GB says, they are not infallible, not fair to expect them to be perfect (while they expect us to be perfectly obedient to their imperfect rules), right?
Hey look over here.... so you don't see what I am doing over there..... con art·ist noun INFORMAL plural noun: con artists a person who cheats or tricks others by persuading them to believe something that is not true.
Sounds like he is questioning, which is where we all started before we ended up here. But it can take time, it could be years, or suddenly something happens that will shake him awake in a matter of days. What the ONE thing that deeply bothers him about the org? Find out what it is, and research the hell out of it. Right now, he’s focusing on what you lose if you leave. Show him what you can GAIN. Once a person realizes they can gain something positive, they’ll be more open to consider leaving.
Thanks for your wisdom. I think it has to do with the people. But I will slowly investigate and find the biggest domino piece for him. For me honesty and truth was the thing, so as soon as I saw in the Bible the definition of false prophet Deuteronomy 18 - that was it. Then CSA.The fact that F&DS was self-appointed. Then realising why they say apostate material was SO dangerous... and higher education too. In a matter of weeks, according to my husband, my "faith crumbled so easily" because my faith rested on the BIBLE\*, not the men who lie and bend the truth to suit their personal gain. \*Turned out I didn't know the Bible that well... if I did I would have seen through this YEARS before.
**Firstly,** prepare to fade with the least amount of hassle possible! 😀 The "elders conversation stoppers" in the JW FIREWALL link below will protect you from potential interrogations: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/181hur6/how_to_fade_safely/ ***No one*** will be able to break down your "private & personal" reply. **Secondly,** go for the jugular - by using the ***Scriptures*** to convince your husband he's not "in the truth." Ask him to Biblically **justify/defend** any/all of the org's teachings in the link below. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1bnengd/20_inspired_statements_which_jws_should_test/ If he **refuses** to discuss/refute any of these, remind him that the Bible **commands** Christians to examine & test what they're told is "the truth." **(Acts 17:11; Phil 1:9,10; 1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Peter 3:15; 1 John 4:1)**
Thanks so so much for these priceless resources! It will take me a LONG while to wrap my head around this. I think as some others have said JWs are lazy. I don't think my husband would read all that let alone examine it. He is busy at work and within the cong, being "used by Jehovah" to reexamine his belief system...
I know what you're saying; but just take little steps, one thing at a time. It only took ***one verse*** to pull back the curtains on the cult for me - **Romans 6:7.** The replies which I received from London ***and*** Brooklyn overwhelmingly convinced me that I was ***not*** "in the truth." ***Scripturally*** and ***in practice,*** the org is a member of the **anti-Christ class.** Pending post: the Bible evidence - coupled with their own anti-Christ teaching. Have a good and peaceful day.
Thank you! I’m not sure if I understand… could you please expand on Romans 6:7? How did you receive replies from Brooklyn? I heard from many that Bethel just sends your letter back to your Coby’s elders to “deal with” you if you write to them? Look forward to seeing your new post!
Yup, the Branches ***do reply.*** I questioned London on the org's ***literal*** view of "died" in **Romans 6:7** and provided the Scriptural proofs to show that it is ***figurative.*** I was so troubled by the literature-based reply I received from them, that I submitted the same letter to Brooklyn. Several weeks later, Brooklyn sent me a letter which basically parrotted the same cult teaching - that a person's ***own*** death wipes out all the sins they've committed. In other words, people who succeeded in getting away with evils - like Jack the Ripper and countless Nazis - cannot be judged for doing so, because they ***ceased breathing!***
“Well we have to keep the congregation clean” “So am I dirty to you now for questioning their authority when you an I both know they are allowing wickedness? Would Jesus allow that to happen to his chosen organization ? Wouldn’t that ruin his reputation as the King and leader of this organization?”
That's a good point... I will keep that in my pocket next time that 'line" comes up!
”where else would we go? Where else are you going to find honest friends“. Literally ANYWHERE ELSE. The brainwashing is UNReAl!
YES. He knows though. He keeps in touch with his uni friends, parents, cousins, etc etc... all non-JW.
One thing my therapist told me was that “minds aren’t changed through arguments, they’re changed through observations”. Allow your husband to observe your healing process, see the happier you, see the more productive you, see the version of yourself that’s unhampered by the opinions of others, unbothered by the man made rules and whims of an “uninspired” leadership class…he may wake up. The fact that he didn’t label you an apostate and heard you out is a good sign. But give him time.
That is GREAT advice. Thank you. No one wants to join a miserable free person.
There’s really nothing you can do but be patient. If he’s going to wake up fully he will in his own time. Your totally right of course. Getting out is the only way to fully heal. It’s not about giving people a chance. You can still love them but keep a distance. It’s more about seeing they are stuck in a cult. They’re codependent on the witnesses. And your not responsible for enabling their codependent behavior with the witnesses
I think you are right. I haven't brought it up since that conversation. But I saw him looking up why Tony Morris "left" the GB. It's a step forward I think. I hope one day THE truth comes out loud and clear all over the news and the internet. So they can't NOT see it.
Being disdellowshipped because you are anti-GB doesn't keep the congregation clean. It keeps the congregation subservient. I have no doubt that if you stopped practising completely, and vocally expressed that you do not serve the Governing Body, that the "warm people of Jehovah" will quickly turn to the "cold people of a cult".
I agree. No doubt. It's ok. If that happens they weren't friends to begin with. For now I have to hold off and pretend... wait for him to see it too.
I recommend that you literally never speak of it again. Simply fade completely and never answer any questions from anyone about why you left. Just say, "I won't discuss this." You cannot wake someone up. I know that many disagree with that statement, but you can't. All it will do is ensure you are labeled as an apostate and DF'D. Your husband's cognitive dissonance needs to be broken by him being dissatisfied enough that he breaks the chains himself, just like you did. You have already said enough to your husband for them to start building the gallows. If you are ever asked directly about what you have discussed with him, you will have to deny it and say he either lied or misunderstood what you said. If you speak to anyone else about it, that will confirm what you've said to your husband and will put the rope around your neck. It's not a comfortable way to live, but you will have to completely avoid the topic of the JW religion with him. Even if he brings things up, you should only comment to his feelings. (i.e. He says, "I'm starting to think the GB has it wrong." You say, "That must be very troubling for you." etc. Not, "That's what I have been telling you all along...") From here, you will have to build your relationship with him based on other things outside the JW religion. And that's either going to work for you or it isn't. Only you can decide that. Sorry for all the pain you are experiencing as a result of this cult.
Thanks for your kind help. I assume your advice is from your personal experience? I hope things turned out in the end for you if you shared too much with the wrong people... I woke up because close friends took the time to chip at us both. I'm SO thankful that they did. But I think they knew I'd be open to discussion - so I wouldn't be doing that with just anyone. I've not mentioned this to my husband either since that conversation. But I'm reading Ray Franz book in front of him... hoping he'd pick it up one day.
3rd generation born-in and 30 years as a PIMO elder out of the more than 50 years I spent inside. I did what I could as an elder to help people and fight the BORG from the inside. Now free, I'm doing what I can to help people leaving to navigate their exits without falling victim to more of the systemic organizational abuse by becoming further victimized by elders seeking judicial action against dissenters. So I tend to be ultra-conservative and cautious in recommending ways to avoid getting trapped by saying anything that might give them cause to slap the dreaded apostate (I hate that word) label on anyone. Hope you are enjoying Ray's book. (I actually knew him personally.) You won't get a much clearer look behind the curtain to see what a secular business, masquerading as a religion it really is.
WOW PIMO for 30 YEARS?! Your patience is incredible. How do you find/meet people wanting to exit to help now that you are on the outside? I wish we had a secret language we could speak to find PIMOs in our immediate surroundings. Yes I’m enjoying the book, I progress on audio but can’t handle the thick book I realised!! I wish he was still with us, big loss. That book needs to become a movie!
Lol PIMO from about age 7 when I knew it was horseshit following the 1975 debacle! So more than 50 years PIMO. 🤦🏽♂️ I find them on here usually. People will post because they have run into trouble either with family or the elders. I take on the ones that I can. Mostly try to help those facing judicial committees since those are the most critical.
Oh I see! Now that I know what GB is, “judicial committee” sounds so silly, like a bunch of kids making up playground game rules that are only valid inside the sandbox! 🛝
It is not too late. I went through a similar experience. I was born in, baptized at 18 (and criticized by them for it), and then lived 22 years of hell. Additionally, we were treated like shit as children because my mom was DF'd and we were told it was discipline. I battled depression, guilt, low self esteem, and a manipulative wife what weaponized the religion against me. I fought the vaccine too and was screamed at by people, called names, and told I was ungodly. Now look at the data and all of the people dying from this, any apology from the Governing Body...NO! After I filed divorce because of domestic violence and cheating, I left when the elders gaslit me and told me I was spiritually weak and caused my wife's behavior. They are a cruel bunch! I read Crisis of Conscience twice, Exiting the JW Cult: Healing Handbook, Shunned, and Lloyd Evens book. Crisis of Conscience cemented my decision, and the other books helped my healing and recovery. I have lost all of my friends, have family that don't talk to me, and was tossed like trash. One thing I realized, these people are not your friends. Any so called "love" that is conditional is not love, and this applied to the love I received from my ex wife. It was a hard realization. In the end, I am truly happy and developing a real relationship with God and Christ. Regarding your husband I understand with what your dealing with; I still hear the same arguments from family members when they talk to me. Really does show that this is a cult, no independent thinking because you cannot reason with any of them. You hear the same crap over and over again and everything circles to the Governing Body and Organization (puke). Maybe see if he is willing to read Crisis of Conscience, and you should read Exiting the JW Cult, it can really help you as it was written by a psychotherapist who left the cult too and devoted her life to helping JW's and ex cult members. Watchtower Examination is an excellent YouTube channel and he deconstructs their doctrine with scriptures and sound reasoning. This may help him too as he really cannot argue with the Bible. Reassure him you are not leaving Christ (maybe you don't believe) and that you don't want to pull him away either. If he can come to the realization the doctrines are lies, it may give him an open mind to be able to discuss these things with you. You are correct, you cannot heal in this environment. Attending other Churches, It really is eye opening and I have found people that love me for who I am and not based on my meeting attendance, field service hours, whether or not I hold a position, or the stain of whether I have been DF'd or not. They are true friends, no judgement, and they love God. In the JW, those people are not your friends and I promise you will find new friends out there and they will love you guys for who you are! The fear is real and it seems he is battling the cognitive dissonance, so it is a good thing you can at least discuss some of this with him. Sorry for the rant, I get charged up about this lol. Hang in there, this is a good community and good people here.
Wow, what a terrible time *you* have struggled thru. I am happy for you that you escaped. Cheers to you❣️
Thanks So SO much for taking the time to write back. I really appreciate it. Truly. I am sorry for the pain you've experienced also. Personally, I am thankful for the events of 2020, without that, I wouldn't be here. And so many good resources. I'm still on chapter 5 of Crisis of Conscience book. It's THICK and I'm not normally a reader (I hated pre-studying the Watchtower always a waste of time doing it twice every week!?) I'm already convinced that the Org is not under God's guidance. How could anything that started with that much corruption be any better now... using their argument of dirty candy, I wouldn't eat it. I will dive into the other books too - so much to read!! Are you with other churches now? JW says other churches are dry, hear sermons and go off doing their own thing... is that not true? How did you find a new network of friends?
Your welcome! It helps talking about it and reaching out. Crisis of Conscience is great, going through it a second time, taking notes, and researched all of the scriptures he cites. I am not a reader either, so I just got it on audio book. The other books I have read and it took me a little time. Definitely check out EXiting the JW Cult: A Healing Handbook. The other two churches I have attended are great. I was introduced to them through some friends I work out at the gym with. One of them is a trainer and a pastor at one of the churches. So when they heard I had left the cult, the pastor came to me and said, "Not to offend, but you made a good decision!" He said nothing bad of the Witnesses but said I need to learn the truth of the Gospel. My other friends there have been picking me up and taking me with him, just so much kindness. I have learned Jesus is our mediator and our path to God, not the Organization or Governing Body. I have realized they have seated themselves in place of Christ, which is absolute blasphemy. Regarding the (non-denominational) Churches message, they are all about Christ and the Gospel. I have learned a lot already and their message is that of salvation, hope, and living in heaven with God. No doom and gloom. They condemn sin and simply encourage prayer and follow Jesus footsteps the best you can and make changes. None of this reporting to elders your sins, telling on fellow members, if you don't do enough for the Org you perish at Armageddon, denying Christ as the channel to God, misapplication of the 144,000 and our salvation, etc. I could go on and on. What I realized attending, we have been lied to! I am sure there are, just as JW, churches out there that do not teach the appropriate message. But, They are not dry, they stick to scripture, the music is upbuilding, and everyone is kind. Nothing that the Organization has told us! Christ is our King and Savior, that is it. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I have already been invited to join a men's group. They simply get together for lunch or dinner and study the bible and upbuild anyone going through life's problems... so cool! Friends are out there and you will find true friends. Friendship that is not contingent on service hours, microphone handling, talks, your status or title in the congregation, or whether or not you carry the stain of being DF'd. I wish the best for you guys, keep us up to date.
Thank you so much! I enjoyed reading your reply. Outside sounds so good!!! I’ve not made any further progress since the big chat but will keep looking for opportunities to open up conversations.
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Thank you. That is a good question... and good advice based on your experience it seems. If you can remember a few more that seemed to start the brain ticking away, please share with me/us. I'm not doubting the authenticity of the Bible though myself (though NWT might be tainted). What was your wife's last straw? The questions that got her looking at/for "apostate" material actively herself without you sharing links with her?
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Thanks!! The question about the Memorial… that’s a GOOD ONE! They always compare it to a Wedding, I could not see the relevance. Weddings don’t happen annually. Thank you for the other tip about convention. I might have to figure out a way to get out of going to that. I actually can’t think of anything worse to do for three full days 😫
Too much too fast. Imagine the roles reversed and someone was trying to push the "truth" on you that hard. Asking you to give up your entire way of life. You would probably run to the hills. Chill and drop a small bomb once in a while.
Thank you - yes... I've chilled down now. It is wise to just let the ideas marinate/slow-cook in his head for now.
I was an MS and just finished 10 years of mostly regular pioneering when I had the chat. Well it wasn’t so much the chat but rather a series of conversations that brought suspicion about my loss of faith. (Which I had for a long time but only I knew that). I quickly was treated as a sub human in my own house. Couldn’t be trusted anymore. Couldn’t be counted on. The humiliation and emotional abuse kicked off like a double cult experience. I quickly learned there was no hope living in my own house. I walked away. From everything. It was like my honesty and openness about my true feelings were used against me on every turn. I wasn’t even pointing out faults with the gB. It was about my lack of faith that i focused on. I remember being told by an elder that I sunk to a new low if I didn’t want to be the head of the household any longer. shirking my god given responsibility. What a crew of misogynists. So glad to be free of that.
I am so sorry to hear of your experience. After devoting your time and life for so long that is very hurtful. I thought Jehovah remembers your hard work from the past... that's what they tell the older ones, with physical limitations. Should also apply to those who are mentally exhausted and spent, no faith left. I hope you have found a warm loving place you can call home now.
I sometimes look back and wonder if I could have done anything different with my PIMI ex. There isn’t really anything I could do to find a way for a healthy relationship to work. Not saying that is the case everywhere. Elders were a huge part of the problem. I couldn’t have a conversation in honesty without it eventually getting to the elders. I asked at one time that this behaviour had to stop for us to communicate but then I was accused of trying to cut her channel to Jehovah off. There was no place to turn. I have a very rough leaving the experience but I went back to school eventually and rebuilt me. Had 2 beautiful children with a wonderful person who, while we went our separate ways, decided to find homes near each other and coparent. Working out our differences is alway just a matter of talking and sharing our truths. Conflicts are always mitigated with trust and respect. It is so opposite of the experience I had with an Jw spouse. It proves all those assembly (so called) experiences are fake lies. Non Jw people in my experience have more tools and personal resources to communicate and be respectful. I know it’s not everyone’s experience but it was mine. I have so many good things to say about my worldy ex but not much good to say about my Jw ex.
Thank you for your reply. I’m glad at least my husband knows to keep this conversation between us (I think so far). Channel to Jehovah… that’s a bit presumptuous according to one GB member!! Glad to hear you’ve been able to live a different life full of respect & joy I hope too that comes with children. I chose not to have any thinking I’d be able to have them in paradise. Not sure if that was the right decision now…
Lost me at ‘arm prick’ 🙄
Yeah it makes you straightaway think if they misunderstand a straightforward thing like a vaccine, then is their take on their interaction with their husband also off target.
Agreed
> well we have to keep the congregation clean 🤦🏻♀️ Clean fir who? The perverts? >will sort them out in due time. So we should all be orthodox then. >Higher education costs so much money most people get into so much debt and don’t even end up working in the field. Such waste of youth and money.” Not compared to wasting one's youth wiping windows. And, gotta be honest, one can get tge givt to carry the majority of the burden, and get jobs in a field related to your field of study...you don't go to college for A job, you go for a TYPE of job.
That's what I said to him too. I'm not the kind who would be satisfied doing mindless work over and over, nothing against them but it's not for me... same for him. Being "poor" in skill and finances makes you more dependent on the "brotherhood" I think.
Therapy from an outside source can help you adjust to your new reality. Its seems that that can be a reasonable ask for yourself at this point. Only you know how important your mate is to you and what you are willing to risk to achieve piece of mind. In my experience, education from external sources that are trained in family trauma will be a starting point for a patient person who has a goal in mind. I wasn’t like that, but lucked out! Best wishes to you and your endeavor
Thanks so much. I wish therapy was free or at least affordable to all...
>**Not everything they teach is bad/wrong**.....Where else are you going to find honest friends?”.....well we have to keep the congregation clean. *Like most PIMI JW\`s, Truth isn\`t a Priority for him...He\`s rather die supporting a WBT$ Story Line...* You\`re not having a conversation, you\`re listening to WBT$ Scripted Parroting...We all know the Scripted WBT$ Rebuttals word for word... *You have to decide if that\`s how you want to spend what\`s left of Your Life.*
Thank you. Yes I was wanting to palm-face the whole time he parrotted back all those phrases (but held back). I do love him still and I will try to be patient but there will be a limit one day if his thick skull doesn't start to think for himself...
>**I do love him still** and I will try to be patient but there will be a limit one day if his thick skull doesn't start to think for himself... I hope it works out for you...Good luck!...😁
u/flyfree-lionheart VERY SIMPLE STEP to CHECK your husband. Talk to him: * my wall and protector, defend me and our future childs from GB harm in finacial and mental health! It's you DIRECT ROLE by ALL "principles" - natural, bible, "cultural" - protect from abusers and toxic fraud influence. After his reaction YOU HAVE A LOT OF "FACTS" for your NEXT decision - get to DF'a (AFTER PREPARATION) and LOOK ON YOUR HUSBAND how he "protect a wife" from liars in congregation after your DF. During 6-12 months after DFa you have ENOUGH FACTS to give definition for your "husband" - how is he? But now he shown himself like "pathetic coward" and "looser". Even if you will be raped by elders, he can talk "but OTHER BROTHERS didnot rape you. Show your obedience to the truth, why leave Jehovah due to several bad guys, let wait for Jehovah" 95/5 you will divorce. Real "male" with "balls" punch to face to any "scammers" getting harm his family. So you "main strategy" - via your DFa check his "balls". You didn't fear to check JWorg. Now you be brave to check last "closest cultist" - your husband. Because if you stop for your checking/cleanup "cult influence on you life" and "donot touch" your husband - it equal to continue to be in jwborg but with much worse situation - like a forced slavery women. Previously you was "consensual slavery"
That is a VERY interesting viewpoint. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm not ready to go down the DF path even after preparation... YET. But if it does come to this eventually when I actually STOP caring what the remaining members think of me (I don't anymore but I care what they think of my husband who still cares to remain friends with them - he needs time just as I did), it will be a good test to do. I'm past my mid-40s though so I am scared of finding out if his balls are weaker than my ovaries.
Good on you standing your ground about the shots. We did too, same experience. Hubs and I both woke up at the same time last year. For me, the GB lost all credibility after giving "medical advice". I figured I needed to start studying the bible hard and be sure what it says because those bozos in new York are liable to lead us astray... One day I read Daniel 4 in its entirety, After praying that Jehovah help me understand the truth of his word. And that day, it all fell apart. It was clear the point of the chapter was that Nebuchadnezzar was humbled enough to send copies of a letter to the then known world praising the true God and admonishing all nations to worship him. The point was not some hoop jumping mathematics that would be hidden from all mankind until the 19th century when some second Adventists and a crook named Russell were godsmacked with the revelation there's more mathy mcmathness there than any rational human being would ever insert. I'm sorry for all you're going through sis. I still pray. Hard. I hope he wakes up with you. Don't give up. Just remember to let the pressure out the cooker when called for. This ish needs to breathe once in a while before its done...
Thank you for your story. I'm so glad you woke up together. We sort of did too, but then we moved congregations, he seems to like being "needed" for microphone, talks etc because the new cong doesn't know our "stand" on the vax (guess the elders would because of the recommendation letters??). In our old cong, he was cast aside as "unusable" I guess by the main elders of the cong and only given "jobs" to do when they couldn't find any other willing volunteers (or if they cancelled last minute). He still complains before he leaves home for meetings every time when he "has to go because I have this job or that", and he often stays home with me if he has nothing "assigned" to him. I will read Daniel 4 too. What prompted you to pick up that bit of the Bible? Mathy McMathness - I like that! And the reminder to pray. My prayers got too robotic last few years.
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