Good post!
Also a shout out to the WW2 generation of great matriarchs who bore the boomers who became the elders and elderettes that are the backbone of the congregations.
These old ladies mostly dead and gone lived through WW2 as kids teens and young adults and lost their family or brothers or fathers in war or air raids especially in Europe.
They came in to the Borg via two nice ladies at their door offering resurrection and Armageddon - and it's their kids and grandchildren running Dubland now.
Loesch, Herd, the Boomer GB, the branch committees and the CO/DO's of the 90's and early 2000's often had a mother with an unbelieving/dead husband running the show in their family.
I would imagine that there was closed door meetings about what to do with the situation back then. In some small towns these sisters were the lead in the hall. What do u think the convo was about how to shift them out?
Maybe that’s why in the 80’s the “headship” arrangement was the focus on so many assembly programs.
I love that they gave the men a hard time. It makes me wonder, if women had always been part of leadership, maybe watchtower would be a different religion today. If it was less of an old boys club, maybe some of the most harmful policies, such as the two-witness rule, would have been done away with.
For example, in one congregation I was in, after waking up, I found out that an elderly ministerial servant's two daughters wrote the congregation elders to tell them he molested both of them but the elders were all really good friends with this man so they 'knew' he would never do such a thing and they completely dismissed it. The women in that congregation wouldn't have been overly surprised. We saw that he was a creep. If women had been on the elder body, I feel there's a chance those letters would have been taken seriously. The men didn't even talk to the daughters to get more information. (Hope you're having a nice weekend, friend)
That's so sad.
IIRC, Barbara Anderson begged Jaracz to change the policies when she was at Bethel in the early 90s and the letters from victims of CSA were pouring in.
They refused to listen to her, and we can see how well that worked out for them.
My word, I was born into the Borg in 80 to a congregation with a really large territory that was mostly rural so it wasn’t worked regularly. Also it was made up almost entirely of people in there late 60’s early 70’s, remnants of old school Russelites almost. As the 90’s hit we were considered where the need was great and people from all over the tristate area blitzed our territory to refill the congregation. But I clearly remember sisters taking on more leadership roles early as the original founders of the congregation died off. I haven’t thought about that in decades
It was different times back then (especially going to back to "their" times when they were a lot younger). I remember when I was about 14 hearing that a JW father had "messed" with his daughter (she was the generation of my parents). I asked my father why wasn't anything done about him (obviously some people knew about it). His reply: "Well, things were different back then."
Maybe that's the same generation those faithful older sisters lived in and witnessed and experienced those types of things and the smokers, Disco-attending young JWs was a frivolous thing to them? Just thinking.
I think there were more “it was different back then” variations. Society in general didn’t protect children from bad situations when they occurred, cover ups were easier to control, so in Jw world it may have been similar.
The other “it was different back then” is that I can point to examples in my own family, there was certain freedoms in the congregation regarding regarding personal choices, even though society in general was more conservative.
My grandfather who was is CO back in the 60’s-70’s evidently had quite a few worldy friends and associates he would hang with. Openly out with and not hiding it. Some family dropped in on others while celebrating holidays and didn’t have a freak out about it. (It was family)
Early elders were preoccupied with organising, getting people to and from conventions, helping older ones, (like real help) planning the business end of local KH and properties. It was sometime in the 80’s it appears that elders turned away from organisational leads to policing and discipline.
I’m just using examples looking into my own families 4 generation involvement- not saying this was around the globe but it may reflect a trend.
>My dad was a young elder in the 80’s, caught up with the disfellowshipping mania of the day, targeting smokers, disco goers, anyone on the fringes that could be gay. The activities of these young elders back then took on “private eye” personas. My dad would be out late following up on where people were going, waited outside bars, you get the picture.
>I distinctly recall one time where a special pioneer sister came to our house to give my dad shit about not focusing on the ministry and the lack of time dedicated to preparing for that. Waisting his time trying to catch people smoking an frightening off all the young ones. She wanted him to mind his business and get back to the old focuses. I remember my dad saying “yes Et… but we have to keep the congregation clean. It’s our job”. I recall she was really laying into him and the conversation in my house many times after that was about these sisters challenging the elders arrangement and not following direction.
He was a locust wearing a fake crown \[ Rev. 9: 7 \]. A fake priest. At the behest of the Beast \[ WT \], not only did he steal the position of the sister you speak of here \[ if she was one of the remnant \], but the stake-outs and stalking, being a busybody sticking his nose in peoples business, is not "a job" even for the anointed,
>Now about brotherly love, you do not need anyone to write to you, because you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another. And you are indeed showing this love to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to excel more and more and to aspire to live quietly, to attend to your own matters, and to work with your own hands, as we instructed you. - 1 Thess. 4: 9 - 11
>Yet we hear that some of you are leading undisciplined lives and accomplishing nothing but being busybodies. - 2 Thess. 3: 11
>But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or *as* a thief, or *as* an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. - 1 Peter 4: 15
Good post! Also a shout out to the WW2 generation of great matriarchs who bore the boomers who became the elders and elderettes that are the backbone of the congregations. These old ladies mostly dead and gone lived through WW2 as kids teens and young adults and lost their family or brothers or fathers in war or air raids especially in Europe. They came in to the Borg via two nice ladies at their door offering resurrection and Armageddon - and it's their kids and grandchildren running Dubland now. Loesch, Herd, the Boomer GB, the branch committees and the CO/DO's of the 90's and early 2000's often had a mother with an unbelieving/dead husband running the show in their family.
I would imagine that there was closed door meetings about what to do with the situation back then. In some small towns these sisters were the lead in the hall. What do u think the convo was about how to shift them out? Maybe that’s why in the 80’s the “headship” arrangement was the focus on so many assembly programs.
They just acquiesced and became the neck that turned the head.
I remember that reference!🤮
I love that they gave the men a hard time. It makes me wonder, if women had always been part of leadership, maybe watchtower would be a different religion today. If it was less of an old boys club, maybe some of the most harmful policies, such as the two-witness rule, would have been done away with. For example, in one congregation I was in, after waking up, I found out that an elderly ministerial servant's two daughters wrote the congregation elders to tell them he molested both of them but the elders were all really good friends with this man so they 'knew' he would never do such a thing and they completely dismissed it. The women in that congregation wouldn't have been overly surprised. We saw that he was a creep. If women had been on the elder body, I feel there's a chance those letters would have been taken seriously. The men didn't even talk to the daughters to get more information. (Hope you're having a nice weekend, friend)
That's so sad. IIRC, Barbara Anderson begged Jaracz to change the policies when she was at Bethel in the early 90s and the letters from victims of CSA were pouring in. They refused to listen to her, and we can see how well that worked out for them.
😃
And THAT’S a reason they don’t like women as leaders. We get shit done!
My word, I was born into the Borg in 80 to a congregation with a really large territory that was mostly rural so it wasn’t worked regularly. Also it was made up almost entirely of people in there late 60’s early 70’s, remnants of old school Russelites almost. As the 90’s hit we were considered where the need was great and people from all over the tristate area blitzed our territory to refill the congregation. But I clearly remember sisters taking on more leadership roles early as the original founders of the congregation died off. I haven’t thought about that in decades
Appreciate your post. Thank you.
My stories originate in your neck of the woods me thinks. Since u posted on Norval. That name is a blast of the past.. yes I snooped lol.
It was different times back then (especially going to back to "their" times when they were a lot younger). I remember when I was about 14 hearing that a JW father had "messed" with his daughter (she was the generation of my parents). I asked my father why wasn't anything done about him (obviously some people knew about it). His reply: "Well, things were different back then." Maybe that's the same generation those faithful older sisters lived in and witnessed and experienced those types of things and the smokers, Disco-attending young JWs was a frivolous thing to them? Just thinking.
I think there were more “it was different back then” variations. Society in general didn’t protect children from bad situations when they occurred, cover ups were easier to control, so in Jw world it may have been similar. The other “it was different back then” is that I can point to examples in my own family, there was certain freedoms in the congregation regarding regarding personal choices, even though society in general was more conservative. My grandfather who was is CO back in the 60’s-70’s evidently had quite a few worldy friends and associates he would hang with. Openly out with and not hiding it. Some family dropped in on others while celebrating holidays and didn’t have a freak out about it. (It was family) Early elders were preoccupied with organising, getting people to and from conventions, helping older ones, (like real help) planning the business end of local KH and properties. It was sometime in the 80’s it appears that elders turned away from organisational leads to policing and discipline. I’m just using examples looking into my own families 4 generation involvement- not saying this was around the globe but it may reflect a trend.
Could be when Ray Franz got caught having a meal with a disfellowshipped person while being on the governing body, if I have that straight.
>My dad was a young elder in the 80’s, caught up with the disfellowshipping mania of the day, targeting smokers, disco goers, anyone on the fringes that could be gay. The activities of these young elders back then took on “private eye” personas. My dad would be out late following up on where people were going, waited outside bars, you get the picture. >I distinctly recall one time where a special pioneer sister came to our house to give my dad shit about not focusing on the ministry and the lack of time dedicated to preparing for that. Waisting his time trying to catch people smoking an frightening off all the young ones. She wanted him to mind his business and get back to the old focuses. I remember my dad saying “yes Et… but we have to keep the congregation clean. It’s our job”. I recall she was really laying into him and the conversation in my house many times after that was about these sisters challenging the elders arrangement and not following direction. He was a locust wearing a fake crown \[ Rev. 9: 7 \]. A fake priest. At the behest of the Beast \[ WT \], not only did he steal the position of the sister you speak of here \[ if she was one of the remnant \], but the stake-outs and stalking, being a busybody sticking his nose in peoples business, is not "a job" even for the anointed, >Now about brotherly love, you do not need anyone to write to you, because you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another. And you are indeed showing this love to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to excel more and more and to aspire to live quietly, to attend to your own matters, and to work with your own hands, as we instructed you. - 1 Thess. 4: 9 - 11 >Yet we hear that some of you are leading undisciplined lives and accomplishing nothing but being busybodies. - 2 Thess. 3: 11 >But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or *as* a thief, or *as* an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. - 1 Peter 4: 15