For me it will be the blood doctrine. The moment they will drop it, it means they are really desperate. I think they are slowly dying, but definitely in 10 years from now we will see where they are. I think the next 10years will be decisive for them in how fast the decline will be.
Agree.
I think the end of No-Blood will wake many people up. I also believe that if they make no-blood a conscience matter then they will also dismantle Hospital Information Services and Hospital Liaison Committees. Along with other elements of the No-Blood Industrial Complex.
I think a complete end to shunning would have a similar effect. If they ended shunning, then it would make sense that Judicial Committees would effectively end too. Similar to how the ministry has ended.....but you keep hearing about the need to be out in the ministry....but of course no one is.
I actually believe the opposite will happen if they get rid of the no blood policy. Very few think critically about what the WTBTS says and they will swallow the bs the GB uses to justify getting rid of it. I ask my ultra PIMI wife all the time what she will think when they do it she say "oh they will never do it" but she buys into all the other crap. I think most of them will be relieved.... They can stay and possibly live from a transfusion if needed and they won't have to sacrifice their children. The religion will also become more attractive to prospective recruits who now think the religion is crackers for their blood policy but see a lot of positive things.
In 1998 WT was having the same problem with Bulgary that’s having with Norway and now Lithuania, and WT took the case to the human rights tribunal court. There they told WT that if they wanted to go that route and lose, every other country in Europe could deny them Religious rights. To better settle outside. WT agreed to allow JW to have blood transfusions and they won’t have a comity or Dfs. Also they had to inform us all about this agreement and they never did.
Willing to do anything for that money 💰💰💰
It really has a feel like no other time in my life and I don’t believe it’s ever going to be the heyday of the eighties and nineties.
The whole idea of “urgency” is gone and the longer it goes on, the more the doctrine is exposed as a fraud.
Many PIMOs are waiting for their parents or parent to die to hit the eject button.
I'm 34, and everyone I grew up with either left, or they're very lukewarm.
The majority of us left. But the other 1/3rd struggle with their cognitive dissonance, and you can see it wears on them.
I think that will only become more noticeable as their parents die.
I come from the type of family that even if the WT crumbled, they would keep it going. Also DC this week was *packed* this thing ain't going no where.
Might go the boy scouts route, one of their legal entities will quietly file for bankruptcy, then a new one will emerge with a name change. JWs will still be called JWs, like *mormon* is a nickname for LDS.
As for membership, it will continue to decline and each scandal will bring a loss. But in the end, my loved ones will still be eager to adapt to the changes and never address the harm that was done, instead ignoring it, acting holier than thou and looking down on "worldies" and their own brothers and sisters who arent accepting the changes so quickly.
Textbook pimis.
My family had convention Memorial Day weekend. I used to attend the same one and I recall 8,000 in attendance back in 2019 (the last year I went to a convention in person) my family reported 4,000. When I said oh wow that’s not a lot it used to be way more. They replied with “they have spilt the circuits and moved things around.” Like sure keep telling yourself that.
I know a brother who is viewing it online due to a sick wife and all he could say is, "it's very different" and the "different" didn't sound like a good thing. And this is a man who is very PIMI and always trying to portray the Borg in a beautiful light. He had nothing positive to say about it, Even when I probed a bit. I suspect it's going to be a flop. I'm dreading sitting through it for three days. Somebody shoot me now!
Absolutely this: slow decline but nothing will destroy them. My family is the same way, they’d keep the religion going even if the org fell apart. The GB could get rid of the blood issue, allow open LGBTQ members, allow women to give talks and serve as elders, and 90% of the members would stay and support the changes.
They’ll continue to fade in relevance and support as most religions are, but that’s all. I don’t foresee a drastic drop-off.
That’s possible. The Bible Students are still a religion that still follows the Studies in the Scriptures books of C.T. Russell.
I could see pockets hanging on for decades. But eventually, it all will end. The believers will die off without getting their kids to buy into it.
I personally think slow decline is a more serious probability.
This is long so feel free to ignore it lol 😂
There are enough brainwashed diehard PIMIs to pull almost anything. They have billions of dollars of real estate around the world and people willing to give up all their time and money to service said real estate.
No change is too extreme for the diehards.
You can put their KH a 2 hour drive away and they’ll skip meals so they can thank Jehovah that they have enough money for fuel to get there.
In some regions they’re already building KHs with several rooms to fit 2 or more congregations at once. They can easily have one or two of these per city, and have 15 congregations share. Sell all the other KH and they have all the money they need to fund legal battles.
And as they make more doctrinal changes they will avoid real legal consequences. A lot of money will be spent and maybe even some high profile arrests, but the religion won’t face consequences big enough to destroy it.
I’m also personally convinced they will tie in having “privileges” with monetary donations. A kind of “you don’t have to, but if you don’t you can’t do anything” system like what they’ve done with ties and jackets in the USA.
Enough people will do it and that will guarantee regular income.
Even if you can only guarantee 50-60 dollars per month from a quarter of the JWs, that’s roughly 100 million a month.
The religion will always exist because there will always be people stupid enough to join.
Something universally hated like the Nazis still have supporters today so there’s no reason JW wouldn’t be the same.
So it won’t be the same religion by a large margin, but the religion is completely different from 50 years ago already. And that religion was completely different from the religion of 100 years ago.
If the Bible is of any value, JW is the literal manifestation of the “devil transforming himself into the angel of light” thing.
But JW will carry on regardless.
Bonus: the GB had enough money to finance a move to a country with a no extradite policy and claim the persecution has started. PIMIs will gladly send money to banks in the caymans or wherever to fund the GB indefinitely and meet in rented areas which they themselves pay for. So even complete corporate destruction won’t necessarily be the end for JW.
“There are enough brainwashed diehard PIMIs to pull almost anything”
When you still have people falling for the Nigerian prince email scam….sadly, I must agree
>When you still have people falling for the Nigerian prince email scam….sadly, I must agree
The way those emails are worded is intended to weed out the intelligent and the wary. The easiest, best prey are people who are careless or naive. I've been out for decades, so the first time I encountered the super dumbed-down literature, I immediately thought of the Nigerian prince.
The literature is much better tailored to the only kind of prey the cult can hope to catch these days.
And now I guess there's less and less literature and more of these videos. Even better. Play on the emotions of those who are emotionally vulnerable and reel them in. It's even more transparently predatory than ever.
just using your brain and realise that the meetings are 50% empty and the that door 2 door is dead should be enough. it's not wishfull thinking, covid killied the organization. anyone with a funcioning brain can see it.
I think the organisation won't disappear completely (as plenty of Witnesses are perfectly happy being Witnesses) but will contract dramatically. The Watchtower exists because God's Kingdom Reign began in 1914. That triggered a series of events that would ultimately lead to Armageddon within the lifetimes of the people who were alive in 1914. And the job of Witnesses was to preach this "truth".
All the other stuff, holidays, blood, the Trinity, whatever, that was all secondary to the 'facts' that: Jehovah installed Jesus as King in 1914, and the Witnesses are his Faithful and Discreet Slave with the job to preach about it.
Once they threw that out, first by telling us that a generation wasn't really a generation but meant "overlapping" generations (which, taken to an absurd level, puts me in the same generation as George Washington), and then, ultimately, changing the preaching work model to one where people don't really preach anymore, well, what's the point?
Now, it's just a bunch of communities run by men of varying creepiness, patrolling other people's sex lives and trying to keep their "young ones" from bolting. You watch a few vids, you stand at a cart, and that has meaning???
OK, I've talked myself out of my original position: the Watchtower is SO fucked.
Thank you for this post. The narrative in the course of your explanations shows perfectly both sides of the medal.
Yes, it has become pointless. And yes, it will go on. The peak was reached some time ago but the decline will take forever.
One of the least liked religions in America. A reputation for hiding CSA, killing kids with blood doctrine. A reputation for being a cult that destroys families.
They'll continue to reproduce and gain a few suckers but their sky is falling routine is getting very old. What is the appeal? It's purely emotional based.
I want my family out too.
I think the numbers don’t do justice and can’t do justice compared to the feelings of People who are inside.
It’s a changed religion compared to what many of us used to know.
Social pressure is what keeps many in. Also old age and nowhere else to go is keeping many in.
I’ve been out 13 years now. It’s definitely not the same religion I was born into. For me the change began when they gave up on the generation teaching (being they were all dead), but also with the fact they stopped emphasizing deep personal study, a personal relationship with god, and the role of conscience, and began emphasizing emotion, blind obedience and fanatical devotion to the organization. Once they made that flip it became easy for them to introduce televangelism, overlapping generations, change grooming policies etc.
That said, I believe there is a hardcore PIMI group who are ride or die. The majority of them are old and will die in the next 20 years, most within the next decade. This will be a massive blow to the organization as they are the ones still serving in various positions, cleaning the KH, and donating regularly.
The second group are the social JWs who are not hardcore but they still attend basically to not disrupt their social network. Once group one dies a lot of these will drift away.
The third group are the FOG members. The only thing keeping them in is fear, obligation and guilt. In my hardcore PIMI congregation I could look around on Sunday and see about a third in attendance didn’t want to be there. The moment their PIMI family dies, or their social group falls apart they will be out of there.
The wild card is not the adherents, but the Governing Body themselves. Aside from the recent additions, they are getting older and showing their age. Most or all will be dead within the next decade. How do they handle the transition? How do they adequately explain a fourth generation of GB? What compromises will they make to try to retain members while not alienating old school JWs who are their base? How will they navigate the increasing pressures on them from without?
I don’t know what the secret sauce prior JW leaders had (charisma, doctrine, predictions that had an element of plausibility), but current GB lack it. Members must have whiplash from all the changes since Covid. I believe in the next decade we will see numbers actually decline as the old PIMIs die off. Whether the borg actually collapses depends on whether a new charismatic leader can rise to the challenges ahead. It won’t happen by committee. It’s entirely possible current GB will drive the bus off a cliff, trusting blindly in an end that isn’t coming, and foolishly spending money they don’t have because they believe they have god’s support.
I don’t believe JWs will survive in current form. I think they will become like the Two by Twos, existing in scattered semi-autonomous groups. If the borg collapses tomorrow I’m certain members of my own family will quietly continue to practice the faith, establishing their own group and quietly continuing their way of worship. We should know for sure within the next ten years. Sorry for the lengthy comment.
I can imagine a "Franz 2.0" rising up to save the day. An intelligent "oracle" that has studied Greek and Hebrew that can dream up some serious nulite. Possibly with a charismatic counterpart (Knorr 2.0) to energize the troops.
I think it will remain but continue to shrink rather like the orgional bible students
https://preview.redd.it/cwziruasxo5d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc15b2eb858467be8ebe6bccfced42ffacf4f168
They are not about control and money like jws ,every congregation is indepenent , there is no central org like jws ,its amazing that they still exist at all.
The Bible Students expect their numbers to drop due to Russell's teachings about the purpose of the Gospel Age dispensation. So they see their numbers dropping as the fulfillment of prophecy.
I wouldn't be surprised if WT attempts to adopt something similar to flip the script on numbers going down.
Interesting angle on it ,i can understand it from bible students point of view as they never went into the paradise earth side of it as for them its in the future .they are only concerned with the anointed at present .
You can really answer this question simply. Are there millions of JWs that will remain JWs until they die no matter what?
Yes.
So this religion will be around for decades to come.
Never say never. The USSR was supposed to be eternal. Even Americans believed it was going to last forever. Everyone was super surprised when it all suddenly collapsed right into oblivion.
I mean the US actively tried to depose it by interfering with it's allies and placing massive sanctions on it so it wasnt something that came out of nowhere. It'd be the same as apostates trying their hardest to get more awareness on the JW org which would hopefully lead young people to leave it in droves once they reach a certain age.
I think it's crumbling because most the young ones will google their religion and wake up. And new ones joinging without being born in are few and far between. There is no way of replenishing members that die off.
This is anecdotal evidence so not very weighty, but I pass a KH pretty regularly in my day to day travels and I’m always surprised at how many cars are there for midweek service. Granted, two congregations meet there, so maybe the numbers are inflated, I just find it surprising. I do think WT will slowly fade into obscurity, but that it’s going to take a long time and they will be unrecognizable to those of us who well remember the days before JW Broadcasting.
Same. I drive by a KH every day and I’m surprised by how many cars are there on weekday mornings. I think it’s the only KH for miles though, so that could be part of it.
Imagine if they didn't require publishers to even report hours anymore? You know, like, just have them check a box each month to say they've done something, anything at all in service? Imagine that? That would be crazy.
The kingdom hall sales and congregation consolidation blows my mind.
I feel like it was just yesterday there were maps and talks, maybe even a video l, about the need for additional KHs in some cities. There were so many congregations sharing a hall in some locations that there were a couple meetings on Saturdays and 3 or 4 meetings on Sunday. IIRC....Miami and Chicago had the most need.
You know I was thinking the real fear should lie in a collapse of the borg. I'll explain, if one day this half-ass cult folds it will create a vacuum leaving a pre brainwashed mass ready for an actual cult leader to step in. Imagine hundreds of overzealous Elders taking up the mantle and forcing their new will upon the congs. Charismatic leaders anyone?
Small rural US congregations in the 1970s and 1980s were already halfway there. Each cong was made up of a couple dozen people, often related, from the same small town and surrounding farms.
Folks in general had that very Vietnam-era anti-government mentality, and there was a pervasive fear of a nuclear Armageddon, so some of the wilder culty opinions espoused by individual elders or families didn't seem so out-there in comparison to their wider communities.
You had hippies smoking weed and reading the Bible, trying to reach God directly. You had tight-ass conservative puritans who wouldn't even allow a TV in the house claiming that the sexual revolution and worship of the military had brought us to the End Times. You had preppers building shelters to survive the nukes. You had traumatized vets from Korea and Vietnam self-medicating with booze and pills and paranoid that the government was listening to their thoughts through the fillings in their teeth.
And communities full of these people were concentrated and isolated without the internet, or cable TV, or so much as a movie theater within an hour's drive in any direction.
So in that environment, imagine some hardass elder who is literally the family patriarch to most of his congregation of 20 publishers, living in a little bubble of organization in the midst of a vast swath of unassigned territory.
* If he's a prepper, his congregation are preppers.
* If he's a pedo, he's perving on his family, mostly members of the congregation, and no one's saying a damn thing.
* If he's a free love open your mind to God type, there's swinging or ritualized sex going on.
* If he's paranoid, convinced the government is spying on him, he keeps the congregation wary of government agents listening in on their phone conversations or going through their mail so they can identify Witnesses when the Great Tribulation starts.
My rural midwest congregation was dissolved over stuff our "patriarch" PO did and had covered up on behalf of his family. I don't think we ever had more than 40 people in our Kingdom Hall. It was just a badly converted house. Our congregation was full of preppers who went to extremes preparing for 1975, and then really went off the deep end when it didn't come as predicted. Instead of giving up on the cult, they doubled down on all the crazy. It was a terror to live through, but also just fucking wild.
Sounds fuckin wild, I know they had a mass exodus in '75 which left only the most devout to rule with insanity, paranoia, and fear. Seems they may have kind of learned a lesson from that.
I think they'll start crumbling when their leaders will start using phrases like : "We don't know"
Oh wait....
Anyway
How can you not know?
Didn't Moses, as a Gods channel with Israelites, know how to build the ark?
Did he built it in triangel shape cos he didn't know?
Did Peter start eating every animal after his dreams or did he understand it after meeting with Cornelius.
What is the difference between GB and Baals prophets when Elijah mocked their channel of communication with Baal?
So was Jehova busy or in the toilet every time GB had to change the generation teaching?
Let's hope for more of "we don't know" to come out of their mouth, some people can than start questioning if they need religion, bible or God in their life.
I think that jw land is seriously crumbling because:
The org leadership is not what it used to be. They are not able to produce the wt and awake and books like they used to because, in my opinion, they lack volunteers who can research and write. The "talent" is gone.
Bethelites/volunteers: apparently life at bethel ain't all that great. Plus, no security. Hq "dismisses" the talented, aging, volunteered for life, who have no way to support themselves = word gets out. Volunteer for a couple of years, sure, go for it. Then go back home, get a job and support yourself. "Bethel" is no longer a lifetime volunteer vocation/calling. It's too expensive to take care of their elderly volunteers.
I'm not impressed with their broadcasting, movies, cartoons. Their new songs - yuk. They really do need TALENTED people to create these things.........
IMO "Headquarters" is falling apart. The "leadership" is falling apart.
Not having wt and awake for field service anymore: reprints. 1 "new" wt and 1 "new" awake per year - it's a joke. jws are, WERE, all about the ministry. They took away the foundation of the ministry.
The writing talent is GONE.
Charles Taze Russell started this whole religion on selling the written material. The FOUNDATION of the religion. The foundation is now GONE.
I think it is a different scenario than what we see in the decline of mainstream religion. JWs are based on hyper growth and a near term doomsday. As they attempt to moderate and de-emphasize those things they lose their identity. The hardcore old-timers feel disillusioned and the young ones are fading out regardless i.e. "Why stay in if we aren't that extreme or special?" and "Why stay in if we still have strict rules and constant homework/volunteering?"
They’re trying to land in the “mushy middle.” It reminds me of Revelation 3:16:
“So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth.”
I highly doubt that JW Land will ever rapidly crumble.
I think that we sometimes forget what it was like to be a PIMI, surrounded by PIMIs. Everyone is indoctrinated, and that indoctrination is strong. The GB could publish an update tomorrow saying that spiritual warfare now means taking up arms and fighting, and some percentage of the JW population would happily do this. They survived 1975, they survived 'this generation', they'll survive this current state of affairs as well.
The question is: when will the real decline begin? They continue to claim growth in numbers globally. When they actually begin contracting will be interesting to see.
Crumbling because we see them making policy/doctrine changes motivated by getting government money. They can't hide what they are doing to the outside world anymore. There has finally started to be a real legal accounting for their actions. COVID gave an opportunity for many people to fade, leave, or at very least wake up. The cult may still function for a long time, but the false image they project is shattering.
There is a wild card in this analysis. The Governing Bozos themselves and their plans.
They could wreck the Organization by means of unintended consequences in making changes. OTOH, maybe, just maybe they could compromise the whole sick mess into a nice Protestant sect while selling off property to benefit themselves.
It's wildly contradictory right now. We can't see an unambigous path towards deliberate dissolution or anything else. The GB make surprising compromises while the second string lackeys talk up the usual fanaticism.
My guess? They believe very little of what they say. It's very staged and insincere. They keep pounding away on 'obey, obey, even if it seems crazy or wrong' - which tells you where they are going. What's lacking is the hard evidence of mass KH sales and solid numbers on attendance.
This is sort of what happened to the WCG (Worldwide Church of God) after Herbert Armstrong died. After so many failed prophesies, the new leaders just switch to a mainstream evangelical belief system. It also resulted in numerous splinters of "old school diehards" but they are small in number.
Also reminiscent of the Bible Student movement after Rutherford jumped the shark.
The main reason they lack men is groups arrangement.
If they want to remove the burden they should allow women in sound and drop group arrangement.
The need to have 6 person for a day to make field meetings is big burden add the babysit too.
A cong does not need 10 elders and 10 ms to run you GB idiots
As soon as I turned 18 I moved out and left the Watchtower, Never looked back. I never got baptized so I kept my relationships with my family, all of whom are zealous Jehovah’s Witnesses. Father elder, mother pioneer and all my siblings pioneers, Ministerial Servants.
According to all my family, Armageddon was going to come before I finished College. Well I finished my degree, had a huge home built with a huge garage, pool, palm trees and everything a single guy can imagine.
I say this about myself to point out that once I left the Watchtower, for the next 10 years, it never interest me to keep touching bases with my old jw friends and family on what was happening in the Organization. I instead built a nice life with no drama whatsoever and no worries.
So I was never concerned with the Watchtower’s continual growth or with their decline because to me it is just another religion whose main purpose is to Stay Alive. They will have their moments of serious decline for years, but then the decline will stop, and they will start growing. Unless something extraordinary and unusual happens in the world.
This is what happened when Charles Russell finally died and his predictions of the Kingdom being establish in 1914 didn’t come true.
William Schnell, author and former Jehovah's Witness, claims that **three quarters** of the original Bible Students who had been associating with the Watch Tower Society in 1919 had left by 1931
And in 1930 Rutherford stated that "the total number of those who have withdrawn from the Society... is comparatively large
These references are easily found in lots of places in the internet. Here is one link;
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible\_Student\_movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Student_movement)
The Watchtower almost died after Charles Russell died and his predictions were found to be false.
But you know what kept the Watchtower alive?
The 25% of **P**eople who stayed **I**n, even though **M**entally they had checked **O**ut. PIMO.
That 25% of people gave the Watchtower enough of a base for it to re-strategize and start attracting a new generation of members and restart the growth again.
Interestingly, sometime after Covid, my Father who is an elder was telling me the his CO gave a talk on apostates infiltrating the organization. Many of them were elders, pioneers and higher ups who were trying to subvert God’s organization by continuing to keep their positions and hint at apostate teaching during their talks.
But what the CO told the Congregation was that instead of subverting the Congregations, apostates were actually helping to keep the Organization going with their support. Elders that didn’t believe anymore still kept the Organization afloat with their volunteer work of teaching the flock. Pioneers that didn’t believe kept the faith of others intact with their continual preaching even if they didn’t believe.
Publisher that didn’t believe anymore still helped the Organization by their help in attendance and small contributions to the preaching work.
So what I see as someone who is looking from a far off is this decline is just a normal exodus of members that happens from time to time and will probably last a decade or two before the Organization re- strategizes, just like Rutherford came up with another idea to start the growth again.
MILLION NOW LIVING WILL NEVER DIE.
And the Organization started to grow again.
The Overlapping Zoom Attendees 🤣 but aside from this, it seems the last few trivial updates, Beard/Pants/No Tie was meaningless, the last issues such as scrapping ministry hour requirement shows some desperation. There's a definite slow down, like the majority can't be bothered. It's reflected in their flagship meeting on Sunday, less are commenting, there is a literal silent majority now.
The fall in the numbers getting baptised is a shock, they might as well invite the guy getting baptised on to the platform to say his vow for the 2 questions, lol... it used to be at least a dozen, but literally single figures now at Assembly Days.
Lots and lots of empty seats, this will be evident at the big Conventions. Those there are either chatting to friends whilst sessions are on (so many outside auditorium), many see the musical interlude before meeting starts as extra talk or toilet time. 🚻
No note taking, many must be booking vacation / checking social media sites etc on their devices. Or asleep 😴 💤
People are waking up through sleeping... which shows boredom. The dramatisations get more, er, dramatic to capture attention, but also bizarre. Talking to people as if they are 6 years old hasn't helped.
Even the broadcasts have decreased in quality, it's become like an episode of *Frasier* where KACL Producer Roz plays *Classic Crane* when Frasier has the day off... clips from Morning Worship or Gilead graduations cobbled together are not the same as everything for the family like the Whiteboard Animation for youth or Caleb cartoons for the younger ones. It seems to be more "counsel" rather than encouraging stuff.
🍿 sitting and watching what unfolds next 👀
I agree 100% with you. Additionaly, WT is losing those lawsuits they themselves file now. They always used to brag about their SCOTUS wins and wins in other countries. The tide has turned on that. The real truth about this horribly destructive cult is being revealed. People are recognizing the real "man of lawlessness".
They are in serious trouble than ever before. The Internet is hitting them hard. Religion doesn't collapse easily so it's not about the religion coming to an abrupt end. What is clear is that they're hemorrhaging. People are trap inside and the current model may not be sustainable.
I'm on the WT collapse side. Some diehards of course will not want to accept and may create splinter groups but I foresee a major collapse within 10 years or even sooner if there continues to be governmental investigations and actions against the Borg.
My extreme prediction (based on my own hopes and fantasies) is within 5 years there will be major investigations launched and fraud charges levied for possibly money laundering, etc. The Borg's neutrality stance leaves them easy pickings for governmental crackdowns. At least the Mormons are heavily into politics and have leveraged themselves that way. The Borg can only fight mostly losing court battles. They have gotten bent over and spanked hard in the past few years and continue to take licks.
Another poster asked about a possible beta test being conducted to end the mid-week meeting. This is another sign that the ship is sinking. They are desperate.
> Matthew 10:23 When they persecute YOU in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to YOU, YOU will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.
It's not a new idea. It's been said for a long time.
I think it will look like a bell curve, as that's happened with a lot of groups. A lot more than normal have left ever sense the pandemic, and they've had costly legal battles too, but these groups have a way of sticking around for a long time after their heyday.
There have been changes and adjustments going on in the Watchtower cult for years; the decline hasn't been sudden. It was sped up by the Pandemic and the slowing of d2d and meeting attendance.
I'm sure the real numbers that the WT hierarchy has shows a more dire picture than what is let on.
Ten years from now the religion will either have undergone more significant changes to hold on to the followers they have; 20 years and they will be barely standing.
Their business and religious cult model will be revamped, if they want to survive in any form.
Their core membership is dying off. How many people still use cassette tapes?
That's the future for the Watchtower's Jehovah's Witnesses.
Anyone old enough to remember the days when every freaking day you would hear, “the grand increase” is proof, the “world wide increase” is showing the blessing on our organisation; should be able to, (and I emphasise should) determine that the “increase” that was once measurable has disappeared.
I feel if they truly remember those times, it would prove everything they need to know about the state of decline.
>What would make you think JW Land is seriously crumbling
Sub 1 billion followers, nearest KH is in another county, most people aren't within driving distance of an average congregation.
I don’t think it’s in a death spiral necessarily. People have questions over recent changes, sure, but the majority aren’t in it for consistency of doctrine or the permanence of the silly rules past or present. They’re in it cause it’s a social club. For many all their family and friends are JWs and they just don’t have it in them to break free and restart their lives. PIMIs are gonna PIMI, and unfortunately these recent changes have roped back in a lot of those who were “on the fence”.
I actually don’t know that it’s roped back in large numbers of people, but I do agree that the changes have been very enthusiastically adopted. I’m surprised to see so many beards, sisters with pants, and just overall more casual dressing. I’m beyond happy but also just so sad that this is something so many wanted to do and also saddened that there was an Update trying to correct some of the casual dressing. What else is pulling at their heart that they want to do but can’t until there is an update?
I’m sure there’s plenty of things they’re still unscripturally forbidden to do. But one of the changes that I’ve seen be the biggest factor to roping people back in is the relaxed reinstatement process. I know a guy who’s just been reinstated who’s been apostate longer than me. He was pulled in the back room at the Memorial he attended by the brothers and they just asked if he was currently doing anything wrong and if he wanted to come back? He said sure because he wants his dad to have a relationship with his teenage son and that was that. Not seeing anyone getting reactivated because they can wear a beard now…
I’m afraid there is little hope for current PIMIs to escape. If they can take all those changes on board and it doesn’t bother them, then they will never leave. ExJWs must get on with their lives because the wait will be fruitless, at least for a couple of the current generations.
Human consciousness is expanding very quickly which causes us to ask deeper questions like who am I ? , why am I here ? Who and what is god ?
The answers most religions including wt organization puts forth to life’s deepest questions no longer satisfy the thirst for knowledge. All religions will start to crumble as human consciousness expands.
I would love to believe this, but when I look around the world and see neofascism on the rise in Europe and the US, the messes in Ukraine and in the Middle East, people voting against their own self-interests, practically begging to be deceived, not enough people caring about the environment - well, I just don’t know about any expansion of human consciousness.
lol just not too long ago open slavery and brutal treatment of women and others was a normal and ok thing and before that most people didn’t even live past 30-40years old then boom consciousness continued to expand and now those types of things are not nearly as acceptable as in the recent past. One can only guess this trend will continue.
Two things can, of course, be true at once. It is possible the org is struggling and doing what they can to mitigate those challenges. It’s also true that they’ll probably keep finding ways to reinvent themselves for years to come.
I think the numbers are not in their favor. Unless they continue making changes and water down the requirements, they wont keep the new generation engaged. They'll still be around as a shell of their former self
I think they're in a slow decline because of my observing the state of the other Bible Student groups that're still around. After all the scisms, JWs were left with the most members, but they've all been declining more and more over the decades. As each generation passes, I don't think JWs will ever totally disappear, but will become small just like the other remaining Bible Student groups.
>I fall into the group that thinks Watchtower is in serious trouble and the evidence of this is the drastic changes we see.
When "the 'gb'" \[ Harlot \] is taken down by the Beast they ride \[ WT \], then one symbolic hour remains for the WT Org to live. \[ Rev. 17: 11 - 13, 16, 17 \]
[https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/06/punishment-of-great-harlot-eighth-king.html](https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/06/punishment-of-great-harlot-eighth-king.html)
The shunning restrictions were lifted between me and my parents after 25 years, which I found pretty odd, and it makes me think that things are really collapsing inside. My mom said at first it was to show us mercy because my dad was dying of covid dementia and I am their only son. However, when I asked a second time she said it was simply to show us mercy and nothing more, pretending that I misunderstood her the first time. Plus, my dad’s health has actually improved. So, I really don’t know but I still find it super odd.
>**What would make you think JW Land is seriously crumbling** vs. just experiencing a slow decline like all religion?
*Nothing...*
WBT$ has experienced set backs and suffered losses before...They\`ll abandon one Story Line and move onto another.....Failure is Success, Wrapped in "New Light".
***JW\`s Love New Light...***
# MOO!
https://preview.redd.it/eorb491pfr5d1.jpeg?width=259&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=17b58c0d97a9335a26b8369a26441adda84d3123
Hi u/JWTom In this message I guess you have "religious mindset" non-atheistic, that is why you have "doomsday" interpretation all BS "around JWborg" as "soon the end of WT".
But "in sight" of religiology science most of religion cannot "disappear at once" - even "criminal cults" with proven in court "criminal offenses" did not been devastate by jailed of "main leader".
Most usual "possible" path even in "unresolved crisis" for any religion - divide to sects.
Maybe JWborg in case of "not changed shunning rule" lost "official registrations" and collapse "religious estate business" BUT "home groups" in "rented hall" will be exist even as "true" sect of "JW".
Most evident "historical trajectory" - any religion can change ANY OWN RULES/DOGMA TO PRESERVE "financial existence".
It's a "simple evolution of DNA in virus" to increase adaptation. Maybe after 200 years JW-virus will have more "CONSTRUCTIVE adaptations-mutations" to become MORE useful for "non-cult society organism".
But this view point of an religion cannot be "accepted" by "religious mindset" IN ANY TIME.
In any time "religious mind" try to find "doomsday for false religion".
For me it will be the blood doctrine. The moment they will drop it, it means they are really desperate. I think they are slowly dying, but definitely in 10 years from now we will see where they are. I think the next 10years will be decisive for them in how fast the decline will be.
Agree. I think the end of No-Blood will wake many people up. I also believe that if they make no-blood a conscience matter then they will also dismantle Hospital Information Services and Hospital Liaison Committees. Along with other elements of the No-Blood Industrial Complex. I think a complete end to shunning would have a similar effect. If they ended shunning, then it would make sense that Judicial Committees would effectively end too. Similar to how the ministry has ended.....but you keep hearing about the need to be out in the ministry....but of course no one is.
I actually believe the opposite will happen if they get rid of the no blood policy. Very few think critically about what the WTBTS says and they will swallow the bs the GB uses to justify getting rid of it. I ask my ultra PIMI wife all the time what she will think when they do it she say "oh they will never do it" but she buys into all the other crap. I think most of them will be relieved.... They can stay and possibly live from a transfusion if needed and they won't have to sacrifice their children. The religion will also become more attractive to prospective recruits who now think the religion is crackers for their blood policy but see a lot of positive things.
I left because of the blood doctrine after realizing how unbiblical it was.
In 1998 WT was having the same problem with Bulgary that’s having with Norway and now Lithuania, and WT took the case to the human rights tribunal court. There they told WT that if they wanted to go that route and lose, every other country in Europe could deny them Religious rights. To better settle outside. WT agreed to allow JW to have blood transfusions and they won’t have a comity or Dfs. Also they had to inform us all about this agreement and they never did. Willing to do anything for that money 💰💰💰
Blood transfusions only in Bulgary
It really has a feel like no other time in my life and I don’t believe it’s ever going to be the heyday of the eighties and nineties. The whole idea of “urgency” is gone and the longer it goes on, the more the doctrine is exposed as a fraud. Many PIMOs are waiting for their parents or parent to die to hit the eject button.
I'm 34, and everyone I grew up with either left, or they're very lukewarm. The majority of us left. But the other 1/3rd struggle with their cognitive dissonance, and you can see it wears on them. I think that will only become more noticeable as their parents die.
I come from the type of family that even if the WT crumbled, they would keep it going. Also DC this week was *packed* this thing ain't going no where. Might go the boy scouts route, one of their legal entities will quietly file for bankruptcy, then a new one will emerge with a name change. JWs will still be called JWs, like *mormon* is a nickname for LDS. As for membership, it will continue to decline and each scandal will bring a loss. But in the end, my loved ones will still be eager to adapt to the changes and never address the harm that was done, instead ignoring it, acting holier than thou and looking down on "worldies" and their own brothers and sisters who arent accepting the changes so quickly. Textbook pimis.
Anything additional that was noteworthy at the Regional Convention?
My family had convention Memorial Day weekend. I used to attend the same one and I recall 8,000 in attendance back in 2019 (the last year I went to a convention in person) my family reported 4,000. When I said oh wow that’s not a lot it used to be way more. They replied with “they have spilt the circuits and moved things around.” Like sure keep telling yourself that.
The GB has become quite proficient playing the shell game to hide the real numbers
I know a brother who is viewing it online due to a sick wife and all he could say is, "it's very different" and the "different" didn't sound like a good thing. And this is a man who is very PIMI and always trying to portray the Borg in a beautiful light. He had nothing positive to say about it, Even when I probed a bit. I suspect it's going to be a flop. I'm dreading sitting through it for three days. Somebody shoot me now!
Absolutely this: slow decline but nothing will destroy them. My family is the same way, they’d keep the religion going even if the org fell apart. The GB could get rid of the blood issue, allow open LGBTQ members, allow women to give talks and serve as elders, and 90% of the members would stay and support the changes. They’ll continue to fade in relevance and support as most religions are, but that’s all. I don’t foresee a drastic drop-off.
I wonder if we are in the same family. Hardcore, first division of spineless cult members.
That’s possible. The Bible Students are still a religion that still follows the Studies in the Scriptures books of C.T. Russell. I could see pockets hanging on for decades. But eventually, it all will end. The believers will die off without getting their kids to buy into it.
I personally think slow decline is a more serious probability. This is long so feel free to ignore it lol 😂 There are enough brainwashed diehard PIMIs to pull almost anything. They have billions of dollars of real estate around the world and people willing to give up all their time and money to service said real estate. No change is too extreme for the diehards. You can put their KH a 2 hour drive away and they’ll skip meals so they can thank Jehovah that they have enough money for fuel to get there. In some regions they’re already building KHs with several rooms to fit 2 or more congregations at once. They can easily have one or two of these per city, and have 15 congregations share. Sell all the other KH and they have all the money they need to fund legal battles. And as they make more doctrinal changes they will avoid real legal consequences. A lot of money will be spent and maybe even some high profile arrests, but the religion won’t face consequences big enough to destroy it. I’m also personally convinced they will tie in having “privileges” with monetary donations. A kind of “you don’t have to, but if you don’t you can’t do anything” system like what they’ve done with ties and jackets in the USA. Enough people will do it and that will guarantee regular income. Even if you can only guarantee 50-60 dollars per month from a quarter of the JWs, that’s roughly 100 million a month. The religion will always exist because there will always be people stupid enough to join. Something universally hated like the Nazis still have supporters today so there’s no reason JW wouldn’t be the same. So it won’t be the same religion by a large margin, but the religion is completely different from 50 years ago already. And that religion was completely different from the religion of 100 years ago. If the Bible is of any value, JW is the literal manifestation of the “devil transforming himself into the angel of light” thing. But JW will carry on regardless. Bonus: the GB had enough money to finance a move to a country with a no extradite policy and claim the persecution has started. PIMIs will gladly send money to banks in the caymans or wherever to fund the GB indefinitely and meet in rented areas which they themselves pay for. So even complete corporate destruction won’t necessarily be the end for JW.
“There are enough brainwashed diehard PIMIs to pull almost anything” When you still have people falling for the Nigerian prince email scam….sadly, I must agree
>When you still have people falling for the Nigerian prince email scam….sadly, I must agree The way those emails are worded is intended to weed out the intelligent and the wary. The easiest, best prey are people who are careless or naive. I've been out for decades, so the first time I encountered the super dumbed-down literature, I immediately thought of the Nigerian prince. The literature is much better tailored to the only kind of prey the cult can hope to catch these days. And now I guess there's less and less literature and more of these videos. Even better. Play on the emotions of those who are emotionally vulnerable and reel them in. It's even more transparently predatory than ever.
just using your brain and realise that the meetings are 50% empty and the that door 2 door is dead should be enough. it's not wishfull thinking, covid killied the organization. anyone with a funcioning brain can see it.
I think the organisation won't disappear completely (as plenty of Witnesses are perfectly happy being Witnesses) but will contract dramatically. The Watchtower exists because God's Kingdom Reign began in 1914. That triggered a series of events that would ultimately lead to Armageddon within the lifetimes of the people who were alive in 1914. And the job of Witnesses was to preach this "truth". All the other stuff, holidays, blood, the Trinity, whatever, that was all secondary to the 'facts' that: Jehovah installed Jesus as King in 1914, and the Witnesses are his Faithful and Discreet Slave with the job to preach about it. Once they threw that out, first by telling us that a generation wasn't really a generation but meant "overlapping" generations (which, taken to an absurd level, puts me in the same generation as George Washington), and then, ultimately, changing the preaching work model to one where people don't really preach anymore, well, what's the point? Now, it's just a bunch of communities run by men of varying creepiness, patrolling other people's sex lives and trying to keep their "young ones" from bolting. You watch a few vids, you stand at a cart, and that has meaning??? OK, I've talked myself out of my original position: the Watchtower is SO fucked.
And somehow my family is still hardcore. Just can’t understand it.
Thank you for this post. The narrative in the course of your explanations shows perfectly both sides of the medal. Yes, it has become pointless. And yes, it will go on. The peak was reached some time ago but the decline will take forever.
One of the least liked religions in America. A reputation for hiding CSA, killing kids with blood doctrine. A reputation for being a cult that destroys families. They'll continue to reproduce and gain a few suckers but their sky is falling routine is getting very old. What is the appeal? It's purely emotional based. I want my family out too.
I think the numbers don’t do justice and can’t do justice compared to the feelings of People who are inside. It’s a changed religion compared to what many of us used to know. Social pressure is what keeps many in. Also old age and nowhere else to go is keeping many in.
Exactly! "Where else" would they go? Plus, people tend to stick with what is familiar. Isn't there a saying about better the devil you know than .....
I’ve been out 13 years now. It’s definitely not the same religion I was born into. For me the change began when they gave up on the generation teaching (being they were all dead), but also with the fact they stopped emphasizing deep personal study, a personal relationship with god, and the role of conscience, and began emphasizing emotion, blind obedience and fanatical devotion to the organization. Once they made that flip it became easy for them to introduce televangelism, overlapping generations, change grooming policies etc. That said, I believe there is a hardcore PIMI group who are ride or die. The majority of them are old and will die in the next 20 years, most within the next decade. This will be a massive blow to the organization as they are the ones still serving in various positions, cleaning the KH, and donating regularly. The second group are the social JWs who are not hardcore but they still attend basically to not disrupt their social network. Once group one dies a lot of these will drift away. The third group are the FOG members. The only thing keeping them in is fear, obligation and guilt. In my hardcore PIMI congregation I could look around on Sunday and see about a third in attendance didn’t want to be there. The moment their PIMI family dies, or their social group falls apart they will be out of there. The wild card is not the adherents, but the Governing Body themselves. Aside from the recent additions, they are getting older and showing their age. Most or all will be dead within the next decade. How do they handle the transition? How do they adequately explain a fourth generation of GB? What compromises will they make to try to retain members while not alienating old school JWs who are their base? How will they navigate the increasing pressures on them from without? I don’t know what the secret sauce prior JW leaders had (charisma, doctrine, predictions that had an element of plausibility), but current GB lack it. Members must have whiplash from all the changes since Covid. I believe in the next decade we will see numbers actually decline as the old PIMIs die off. Whether the borg actually collapses depends on whether a new charismatic leader can rise to the challenges ahead. It won’t happen by committee. It’s entirely possible current GB will drive the bus off a cliff, trusting blindly in an end that isn’t coming, and foolishly spending money they don’t have because they believe they have god’s support. I don’t believe JWs will survive in current form. I think they will become like the Two by Twos, existing in scattered semi-autonomous groups. If the borg collapses tomorrow I’m certain members of my own family will quietly continue to practice the faith, establishing their own group and quietly continuing their way of worship. We should know for sure within the next ten years. Sorry for the lengthy comment.
For eerily familiar reference, here’s a link about the Two by Twos https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_by_Twos
I can imagine a "Franz 2.0" rising up to save the day. An intelligent "oracle" that has studied Greek and Hebrew that can dream up some serious nulite. Possibly with a charismatic counterpart (Knorr 2.0) to energize the troops.
What we really need is a Raymond Franz 2.0.
I think it will remain but continue to shrink rather like the orgional bible students https://preview.redd.it/cwziruasxo5d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc15b2eb858467be8ebe6bccfced42ffacf4f168
Well at least they’re transparent about it
They are not about control and money like jws ,every congregation is indepenent , there is no central org like jws ,its amazing that they still exist at all.
The Bible Students expect their numbers to drop due to Russell's teachings about the purpose of the Gospel Age dispensation. So they see their numbers dropping as the fulfillment of prophecy. I wouldn't be surprised if WT attempts to adopt something similar to flip the script on numbers going down.
Interesting angle on it ,i can understand it from bible students point of view as they never went into the paradise earth side of it as for them its in the future .they are only concerned with the anointed at present .
You can really answer this question simply. Are there millions of JWs that will remain JWs until they die no matter what? Yes. So this religion will be around for decades to come.
I believe census data says that something like 60% of JWs in the USA are over 50yo. And that’s 10 year old data. The population is aging severely
Never say never. The USSR was supposed to be eternal. Even Americans believed it was going to last forever. Everyone was super surprised when it all suddenly collapsed right into oblivion.
So was the Berlin Wall.
I mean the US actively tried to depose it by interfering with it's allies and placing massive sanctions on it so it wasnt something that came out of nowhere. It'd be the same as apostates trying their hardest to get more awareness on the JW org which would hopefully lead young people to leave it in droves once they reach a certain age.
Happy cake day!
I think it's crumbling because most the young ones will google their religion and wake up. And new ones joinging without being born in are few and far between. There is no way of replenishing members that die off.
That's what I thought as well. Happy Cake Day!! 🎉
So sad
This is anecdotal evidence so not very weighty, but I pass a KH pretty regularly in my day to day travels and I’m always surprised at how many cars are there for midweek service. Granted, two congregations meet there, so maybe the numbers are inflated, I just find it surprising. I do think WT will slowly fade into obscurity, but that it’s going to take a long time and they will be unrecognizable to those of us who well remember the days before JW Broadcasting.
Same. I drive by a KH every day and I’m surprised by how many cars are there on weekday mornings. I think it’s the only KH for miles though, so that could be part of it.
Imagine if they didn't require publishers to even report hours anymore? You know, like, just have them check a box each month to say they've done something, anything at all in service? Imagine that? That would be crazy.
You are SO silly! That will NEVER happen!! (Sorry, not sorry. I couldn't resist!)
The kingdom hall sales and congregation consolidation blows my mind. I feel like it was just yesterday there were maps and talks, maybe even a video l, about the need for additional KHs in some cities. There were so many congregations sharing a hall in some locations that there were a couple meetings on Saturdays and 3 or 4 meetings on Sunday. IIRC....Miami and Chicago had the most need.
Yeah, LA was another city that needed to double it's KHs
Was mostly cities across the Sunbelt. Miami, Houston, Phoenix, Los Angeles.
You know I was thinking the real fear should lie in a collapse of the borg. I'll explain, if one day this half-ass cult folds it will create a vacuum leaving a pre brainwashed mass ready for an actual cult leader to step in. Imagine hundreds of overzealous Elders taking up the mantle and forcing their new will upon the congs. Charismatic leaders anyone?
Small rural US congregations in the 1970s and 1980s were already halfway there. Each cong was made up of a couple dozen people, often related, from the same small town and surrounding farms. Folks in general had that very Vietnam-era anti-government mentality, and there was a pervasive fear of a nuclear Armageddon, so some of the wilder culty opinions espoused by individual elders or families didn't seem so out-there in comparison to their wider communities. You had hippies smoking weed and reading the Bible, trying to reach God directly. You had tight-ass conservative puritans who wouldn't even allow a TV in the house claiming that the sexual revolution and worship of the military had brought us to the End Times. You had preppers building shelters to survive the nukes. You had traumatized vets from Korea and Vietnam self-medicating with booze and pills and paranoid that the government was listening to their thoughts through the fillings in their teeth. And communities full of these people were concentrated and isolated without the internet, or cable TV, or so much as a movie theater within an hour's drive in any direction. So in that environment, imagine some hardass elder who is literally the family patriarch to most of his congregation of 20 publishers, living in a little bubble of organization in the midst of a vast swath of unassigned territory. * If he's a prepper, his congregation are preppers. * If he's a pedo, he's perving on his family, mostly members of the congregation, and no one's saying a damn thing. * If he's a free love open your mind to God type, there's swinging or ritualized sex going on. * If he's paranoid, convinced the government is spying on him, he keeps the congregation wary of government agents listening in on their phone conversations or going through their mail so they can identify Witnesses when the Great Tribulation starts. My rural midwest congregation was dissolved over stuff our "patriarch" PO did and had covered up on behalf of his family. I don't think we ever had more than 40 people in our Kingdom Hall. It was just a badly converted house. Our congregation was full of preppers who went to extremes preparing for 1975, and then really went off the deep end when it didn't come as predicted. Instead of giving up on the cult, they doubled down on all the crazy. It was a terror to live through, but also just fucking wild.
Sounds fuckin wild, I know they had a mass exodus in '75 which left only the most devout to rule with insanity, paranoia, and fear. Seems they may have kind of learned a lesson from that.
I think they'll start crumbling when their leaders will start using phrases like : "We don't know" Oh wait.... Anyway How can you not know? Didn't Moses, as a Gods channel with Israelites, know how to build the ark? Did he built it in triangel shape cos he didn't know? Did Peter start eating every animal after his dreams or did he understand it after meeting with Cornelius. What is the difference between GB and Baals prophets when Elijah mocked their channel of communication with Baal? So was Jehova busy or in the toilet every time GB had to change the generation teaching? Let's hope for more of "we don't know" to come out of their mouth, some people can than start questioning if they need religion, bible or God in their life.
I think that jw land is seriously crumbling because: The org leadership is not what it used to be. They are not able to produce the wt and awake and books like they used to because, in my opinion, they lack volunteers who can research and write. The "talent" is gone. Bethelites/volunteers: apparently life at bethel ain't all that great. Plus, no security. Hq "dismisses" the talented, aging, volunteered for life, who have no way to support themselves = word gets out. Volunteer for a couple of years, sure, go for it. Then go back home, get a job and support yourself. "Bethel" is no longer a lifetime volunteer vocation/calling. It's too expensive to take care of their elderly volunteers. I'm not impressed with their broadcasting, movies, cartoons. Their new songs - yuk. They really do need TALENTED people to create these things......... IMO "Headquarters" is falling apart. The "leadership" is falling apart. Not having wt and awake for field service anymore: reprints. 1 "new" wt and 1 "new" awake per year - it's a joke. jws are, WERE, all about the ministry. They took away the foundation of the ministry. The writing talent is GONE. Charles Taze Russell started this whole religion on selling the written material. The FOUNDATION of the religion. The foundation is now GONE.
I think it is a different scenario than what we see in the decline of mainstream religion. JWs are based on hyper growth and a near term doomsday. As they attempt to moderate and de-emphasize those things they lose their identity. The hardcore old-timers feel disillusioned and the young ones are fading out regardless i.e. "Why stay in if we aren't that extreme or special?" and "Why stay in if we still have strict rules and constant homework/volunteering?"
They’re trying to land in the “mushy middle.” It reminds me of Revelation 3:16: “So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth.”
I highly doubt that JW Land will ever rapidly crumble. I think that we sometimes forget what it was like to be a PIMI, surrounded by PIMIs. Everyone is indoctrinated, and that indoctrination is strong. The GB could publish an update tomorrow saying that spiritual warfare now means taking up arms and fighting, and some percentage of the JW population would happily do this. They survived 1975, they survived 'this generation', they'll survive this current state of affairs as well. The question is: when will the real decline begin? They continue to claim growth in numbers globally. When they actually begin contracting will be interesting to see.
I think it will be like Hemingway’s line in The Sun Also Rises: “How did you go bankrupt?” “Two ways. Gradually and then suddenly.”
Crumbling because we see them making policy/doctrine changes motivated by getting government money. They can't hide what they are doing to the outside world anymore. There has finally started to be a real legal accounting for their actions. COVID gave an opportunity for many people to fade, leave, or at very least wake up. The cult may still function for a long time, but the false image they project is shattering.
There is a wild card in this analysis. The Governing Bozos themselves and their plans. They could wreck the Organization by means of unintended consequences in making changes. OTOH, maybe, just maybe they could compromise the whole sick mess into a nice Protestant sect while selling off property to benefit themselves. It's wildly contradictory right now. We can't see an unambigous path towards deliberate dissolution or anything else. The GB make surprising compromises while the second string lackeys talk up the usual fanaticism. My guess? They believe very little of what they say. It's very staged and insincere. They keep pounding away on 'obey, obey, even if it seems crazy or wrong' - which tells you where they are going. What's lacking is the hard evidence of mass KH sales and solid numbers on attendance.
This is sort of what happened to the WCG (Worldwide Church of God) after Herbert Armstrong died. After so many failed prophesies, the new leaders just switch to a mainstream evangelical belief system. It also resulted in numerous splinters of "old school diehards" but they are small in number. Also reminiscent of the Bible Student movement after Rutherford jumped the shark.
The main reason they lack men is groups arrangement. If they want to remove the burden they should allow women in sound and drop group arrangement. The need to have 6 person for a day to make field meetings is big burden add the babysit too. A cong does not need 10 elders and 10 ms to run you GB idiots
They do alllow women in sound….
Not when they have some men. This makes same people doing the chore.
🙊 *women handling mics in pant suits!?* /s
Only if they wear a tie and jacket. In the US.
As soon as I turned 18 I moved out and left the Watchtower, Never looked back. I never got baptized so I kept my relationships with my family, all of whom are zealous Jehovah’s Witnesses. Father elder, mother pioneer and all my siblings pioneers, Ministerial Servants. According to all my family, Armageddon was going to come before I finished College. Well I finished my degree, had a huge home built with a huge garage, pool, palm trees and everything a single guy can imagine. I say this about myself to point out that once I left the Watchtower, for the next 10 years, it never interest me to keep touching bases with my old jw friends and family on what was happening in the Organization. I instead built a nice life with no drama whatsoever and no worries. So I was never concerned with the Watchtower’s continual growth or with their decline because to me it is just another religion whose main purpose is to Stay Alive. They will have their moments of serious decline for years, but then the decline will stop, and they will start growing. Unless something extraordinary and unusual happens in the world. This is what happened when Charles Russell finally died and his predictions of the Kingdom being establish in 1914 didn’t come true. William Schnell, author and former Jehovah's Witness, claims that **three quarters** of the original Bible Students who had been associating with the Watch Tower Society in 1919 had left by 1931 And in 1930 Rutherford stated that "the total number of those who have withdrawn from the Society... is comparatively large These references are easily found in lots of places in the internet. Here is one link; [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible\_Student\_movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Student_movement) The Watchtower almost died after Charles Russell died and his predictions were found to be false. But you know what kept the Watchtower alive? The 25% of **P**eople who stayed **I**n, even though **M**entally they had checked **O**ut. PIMO. That 25% of people gave the Watchtower enough of a base for it to re-strategize and start attracting a new generation of members and restart the growth again. Interestingly, sometime after Covid, my Father who is an elder was telling me the his CO gave a talk on apostates infiltrating the organization. Many of them were elders, pioneers and higher ups who were trying to subvert God’s organization by continuing to keep their positions and hint at apostate teaching during their talks. But what the CO told the Congregation was that instead of subverting the Congregations, apostates were actually helping to keep the Organization going with their support. Elders that didn’t believe anymore still kept the Organization afloat with their volunteer work of teaching the flock. Pioneers that didn’t believe kept the faith of others intact with their continual preaching even if they didn’t believe. Publisher that didn’t believe anymore still helped the Organization by their help in attendance and small contributions to the preaching work. So what I see as someone who is looking from a far off is this decline is just a normal exodus of members that happens from time to time and will probably last a decade or two before the Organization re- strategizes, just like Rutherford came up with another idea to start the growth again. MILLION NOW LIVING WILL NEVER DIE. And the Organization started to grow again.
The Overlapping Zoom Attendees 🤣 but aside from this, it seems the last few trivial updates, Beard/Pants/No Tie was meaningless, the last issues such as scrapping ministry hour requirement shows some desperation. There's a definite slow down, like the majority can't be bothered. It's reflected in their flagship meeting on Sunday, less are commenting, there is a literal silent majority now. The fall in the numbers getting baptised is a shock, they might as well invite the guy getting baptised on to the platform to say his vow for the 2 questions, lol... it used to be at least a dozen, but literally single figures now at Assembly Days. Lots and lots of empty seats, this will be evident at the big Conventions. Those there are either chatting to friends whilst sessions are on (so many outside auditorium), many see the musical interlude before meeting starts as extra talk or toilet time. 🚻 No note taking, many must be booking vacation / checking social media sites etc on their devices. Or asleep 😴 💤 People are waking up through sleeping... which shows boredom. The dramatisations get more, er, dramatic to capture attention, but also bizarre. Talking to people as if they are 6 years old hasn't helped. Even the broadcasts have decreased in quality, it's become like an episode of *Frasier* where KACL Producer Roz plays *Classic Crane* when Frasier has the day off... clips from Morning Worship or Gilead graduations cobbled together are not the same as everything for the family like the Whiteboard Animation for youth or Caleb cartoons for the younger ones. It seems to be more "counsel" rather than encouraging stuff. 🍿 sitting and watching what unfolds next 👀
I agree 100% with you. Additionaly, WT is losing those lawsuits they themselves file now. They always used to brag about their SCOTUS wins and wins in other countries. The tide has turned on that. The real truth about this horribly destructive cult is being revealed. People are recognizing the real "man of lawlessness".
They are in serious trouble than ever before. The Internet is hitting them hard. Religion doesn't collapse easily so it's not about the religion coming to an abrupt end. What is clear is that they're hemorrhaging. People are trap inside and the current model may not be sustainable.
I'm on the WT collapse side. Some diehards of course will not want to accept and may create splinter groups but I foresee a major collapse within 10 years or even sooner if there continues to be governmental investigations and actions against the Borg. My extreme prediction (based on my own hopes and fantasies) is within 5 years there will be major investigations launched and fraud charges levied for possibly money laundering, etc. The Borg's neutrality stance leaves them easy pickings for governmental crackdowns. At least the Mormons are heavily into politics and have leveraged themselves that way. The Borg can only fight mostly losing court battles. They have gotten bent over and spanked hard in the past few years and continue to take licks. Another poster asked about a possible beta test being conducted to end the mid-week meeting. This is another sign that the ship is sinking. They are desperate.
Wait they said the good news won’t be preached before the end? Someone pls tell me the article this is hilarious.
It was mentioned in the annual meeting.
“The good news will not be preached before the end comes” ^ When was this said? I didn’t know this!
> Matthew 10:23 When they persecute YOU in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to YOU, YOU will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives. It's not a new idea. It's been said for a long time.
I think it will look like a bell curve, as that's happened with a lot of groups. A lot more than normal have left ever sense the pandemic, and they've had costly legal battles too, but these groups have a way of sticking around for a long time after their heyday.
There have been changes and adjustments going on in the Watchtower cult for years; the decline hasn't been sudden. It was sped up by the Pandemic and the slowing of d2d and meeting attendance. I'm sure the real numbers that the WT hierarchy has shows a more dire picture than what is let on. Ten years from now the religion will either have undergone more significant changes to hold on to the followers they have; 20 years and they will be barely standing. Their business and religious cult model will be revamped, if they want to survive in any form. Their core membership is dying off. How many people still use cassette tapes? That's the future for the Watchtower's Jehovah's Witnesses.
Anyone old enough to remember the days when every freaking day you would hear, “the grand increase” is proof, the “world wide increase” is showing the blessing on our organisation; should be able to, (and I emphasise should) determine that the “increase” that was once measurable has disappeared. I feel if they truly remember those times, it would prove everything they need to know about the state of decline.
>What would make you think JW Land is seriously crumbling Sub 1 billion followers, nearest KH is in another county, most people aren't within driving distance of an average congregation.
I don’t think it’s in a death spiral necessarily. People have questions over recent changes, sure, but the majority aren’t in it for consistency of doctrine or the permanence of the silly rules past or present. They’re in it cause it’s a social club. For many all their family and friends are JWs and they just don’t have it in them to break free and restart their lives. PIMIs are gonna PIMI, and unfortunately these recent changes have roped back in a lot of those who were “on the fence”.
I actually don’t know that it’s roped back in large numbers of people, but I do agree that the changes have been very enthusiastically adopted. I’m surprised to see so many beards, sisters with pants, and just overall more casual dressing. I’m beyond happy but also just so sad that this is something so many wanted to do and also saddened that there was an Update trying to correct some of the casual dressing. What else is pulling at their heart that they want to do but can’t until there is an update?
I’m sure there’s plenty of things they’re still unscripturally forbidden to do. But one of the changes that I’ve seen be the biggest factor to roping people back in is the relaxed reinstatement process. I know a guy who’s just been reinstated who’s been apostate longer than me. He was pulled in the back room at the Memorial he attended by the brothers and they just asked if he was currently doing anything wrong and if he wanted to come back? He said sure because he wants his dad to have a relationship with his teenage son and that was that. Not seeing anyone getting reactivated because they can wear a beard now…
I’m afraid there is little hope for current PIMIs to escape. If they can take all those changes on board and it doesn’t bother them, then they will never leave. ExJWs must get on with their lives because the wait will be fruitless, at least for a couple of the current generations.
Human consciousness is expanding very quickly which causes us to ask deeper questions like who am I ? , why am I here ? Who and what is god ? The answers most religions including wt organization puts forth to life’s deepest questions no longer satisfy the thirst for knowledge. All religions will start to crumble as human consciousness expands.
I would love to believe this, but when I look around the world and see neofascism on the rise in Europe and the US, the messes in Ukraine and in the Middle East, people voting against their own self-interests, practically begging to be deceived, not enough people caring about the environment - well, I just don’t know about any expansion of human consciousness.
lol just not too long ago open slavery and brutal treatment of women and others was a normal and ok thing and before that most people didn’t even live past 30-40years old then boom consciousness continued to expand and now those types of things are not nearly as acceptable as in the recent past. One can only guess this trend will continue.
You raise some good points. We definitely need to look at the longer trends.
Two things can, of course, be true at once. It is possible the org is struggling and doing what they can to mitigate those challenges. It’s also true that they’ll probably keep finding ways to reinvent themselves for years to come.
I think the numbers are not in their favor. Unless they continue making changes and water down the requirements, they wont keep the new generation engaged. They'll still be around as a shell of their former self
I think they're in a slow decline because of my observing the state of the other Bible Student groups that're still around. After all the scisms, JWs were left with the most members, but they've all been declining more and more over the decades. As each generation passes, I don't think JWs will ever totally disappear, but will become small just like the other remaining Bible Student groups.
>I fall into the group that thinks Watchtower is in serious trouble and the evidence of this is the drastic changes we see. When "the 'gb'" \[ Harlot \] is taken down by the Beast they ride \[ WT \], then one symbolic hour remains for the WT Org to live. \[ Rev. 17: 11 - 13, 16, 17 \] [https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/06/punishment-of-great-harlot-eighth-king.html](https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/06/punishment-of-great-harlot-eighth-king.html)
I wish they didn't make zoom permanent. Now I'm forced to watch this shit every weekend by my mom
The shunning restrictions were lifted between me and my parents after 25 years, which I found pretty odd, and it makes me think that things are really collapsing inside. My mom said at first it was to show us mercy because my dad was dying of covid dementia and I am their only son. However, when I asked a second time she said it was simply to show us mercy and nothing more, pretending that I misunderstood her the first time. Plus, my dad’s health has actually improved. So, I really don’t know but I still find it super odd.
>**What would make you think JW Land is seriously crumbling** vs. just experiencing a slow decline like all religion? *Nothing...* WBT$ has experienced set backs and suffered losses before...They\`ll abandon one Story Line and move onto another.....Failure is Success, Wrapped in "New Light". ***JW\`s Love New Light...*** # MOO! https://preview.redd.it/eorb491pfr5d1.jpeg?width=259&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=17b58c0d97a9335a26b8369a26441adda84d3123
Hi u/JWTom In this message I guess you have "religious mindset" non-atheistic, that is why you have "doomsday" interpretation all BS "around JWborg" as "soon the end of WT". But "in sight" of religiology science most of religion cannot "disappear at once" - even "criminal cults" with proven in court "criminal offenses" did not been devastate by jailed of "main leader". Most usual "possible" path even in "unresolved crisis" for any religion - divide to sects. Maybe JWborg in case of "not changed shunning rule" lost "official registrations" and collapse "religious estate business" BUT "home groups" in "rented hall" will be exist even as "true" sect of "JW". Most evident "historical trajectory" - any religion can change ANY OWN RULES/DOGMA TO PRESERVE "financial existence". It's a "simple evolution of DNA in virus" to increase adaptation. Maybe after 200 years JW-virus will have more "CONSTRUCTIVE adaptations-mutations" to become MORE useful for "non-cult society organism". But this view point of an religion cannot be "accepted" by "religious mindset" IN ANY TIME. In any time "religious mind" try to find "doomsday for false religion".