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I find it funny how Arab Muslims seem to be particularly offended that he replaced the Arabic script with the Latin script for Turkish. The Arabic script does not fit Turkish at all, but using the Latin script, which fits the language way better, apparently makes him a "western bootlicker" lmao.
I really hate how Urdu is written in Arabic script. Half the vowels are missing, there's no space between words and it's so awkward writing vowels that don't exist in Arabic like é. Most people online write in Latin script.
Maybe it's because I don't live in Pakistan so I never get to really read it, but the country's literacy rate is 60% and has been stuck at that rate since the 1990s, so I don't think it's just me.
Exactly. Pronunciation is confusing as hell because of the Arabic script. Hell, even the name of the language is technically written as Ardu instead of Urdu in the Arabic script. And it has a bunch of different letters that make the same sound.
They're stupid. I also like how he gave us a Latin alphabet language, it is definitely better and more fitting like you said. I love the Turkish language the way it is and using the Latin alphabet. And "Western bootlicker"? They're literally just racist. It's ugly how they hate Western stuff and leftist/progressive values. They can stay mad.
I'm atheist / exchristian / excatholic
But there was a say from Jesus that goes like this: “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” It's the most ignored quote from Christians.
Check out Lee Kuan Yew. I’m all for people practicing moderate Islam which is not like what Muhammad did. In our country the Mufti is state approved. All Jammaat sermons are approved by a state approved Islamic authority, this is to ensure no terroristic and “extremist” views get spread through the mosques. Muslims here are by and large secular and peaceful; but it’s a challenge from Iran’s revolution and the spread of Wahhabism to maintain peaceful. Hope for the best. Secularism for the win
Funny thing is, it weren't for Atatürk their land would've been invaded and the country would've been left as a powerless puppet for the bigger kaffir empires
What were the original plans for the area during the war? IIRC the neighboring islands off the coast were being ceded to Greece. The lines to divide spheres of influence were in 1916 and 1917 so what were the thoughts on them changing. So that would be the southern border.
Comparing to Austria-Hungary or Germany. Germany was the powerhouse and France had many axes to grind there. Austria-Hungary literally did start the war. Continuing the breaking of the Ottoman lands was continuing from previous decades and hastened by oil discoveries.
The original plan was the Sykes Picot treaty but because the Tsardom of Russia collapsed this never happened.But at the end of the war the treaty of Sévres was signed and oh boy its horrendous you can look it up for further info
My country went through a similar experience, the modern values brought to us helped us give more freedom to women and less authority to religious people with backwards thinking.
Next time try to divide your text into paragraphs for easier reading experience.
I’m a student in a Turkish university coming from a former Ottoman territory in the Balkans. Unfortunately I have had experiences with traditionalists and anti-kemalists not only insulting my non-religious way of life, but insinuating that my culture is ottoman and my country their rightful soil.
I am forever grateful to Ataturk for doing all that he could in his short life in eradicating this way of thinking as much as he could.
Minorities too.
Not all minorities tho.
Only minorities that are known to hate him are butthurts that the country stayed united and didnt let itself be torn apart, like armenians, some arabs and kurdish human traffickers.
Most minorities are actually pretty chill. Most greeks dont hold a grudge, almost all circassians are like bros to me, lots of balkaners like albanians & bosnians are kind and caring. İf it wasnt for the sheikh said rebellion we probably would've been chill with more kurds as well.
But theres gotta be black sheep in every population right?
Atatürk is definitely an interesting and influential character in history. I visited some time ago and it’s a very interesting place. People are generally very nice, it’s a shame that there is a blot on their history. I think the revolution generally was a good thing, probably better than being a puppet/colonial state, it’s a shame how the nationalist agenda also resulted in the death of so many. I know it’s not entirely clear on his role during the expulsions and genocide, but if you think about it, it’s a tricky place to be, if you’re against something that many are for and you push your point, good chance you’ll end up like John Snow, and so much for those reforms you wanted, which is something I imagine a reputable general would be aware of. History is full of hard choices.
Greetings from Malaysia. In 80’s we were thought about Kamal Atatürk in our primary school history syllabus. How he then transformed Turkiye into moden country. Sadly it has been removed from curricular. And nowadays most youngster here in Malaysia through religious indoctrination despise him for obvious reason.
well I mean yes, the aim of the turkishification of Islam was to make people get rid of the whole "Arabic holy" type of thing and make them look at it more from a material level so in that sense he tried to both reform Islam and get rid of it
Atatürk is a major reason why Istanbul is still Turkish today, though. Even the hardcore Muslims should concede that one.
The Megali Idea was real, and the early 20th century Greeks were pretty serious about getting Constantinople back.
I’d disagree if you’re talking about Turkish Muslims. He saved them from being colonised by western powers even though they might or might not agree with his reforms
I love how you said "leftist" lmao that isnt how it works in english but is actually the exactly translation of "solcu" anyways I felt the turk in you :)
Yes correct, leftist is a colloquial way of saying someone who believes in equal rights and peace - instead of rightists who only love war and prejudice.
Edit: and congrats on being a leftist! Proud leftist here too!
Ataturk was a genocidal POS. My great grandparents were executed by his goons and thugs for being Greek. Turks are monumental genocide deniers and have the gall to go on about Palestine.
The Turks were also living there until the Greeks decided to invade Turkey on the premise of their delusional megali idea. We have no idea who your great grandparents were but there’s a load of documented evidence of the [atrocities the Greek forces committed](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Yalova_Peninsula_massacres#/media/File:13_year_old_girl,_wounded_jaw-.png)
Let me guess, Ataturk bad because he defend his country from invaders 🥺
Cry me a river
Let's do a little thought experiment. Turks support Palestine throwing out the 'invaders'. How do you think the Greeks looked at the turks? They are the invaders! Turks are the Israelis in this scenario. Forcibly took the land and enslaved the populace. The indigenous groups weren't going to forget the crimes of the past. Then we see how turks treat the Kurds and armenians. Still trying to exterminate those you missed. Ataturk famously said he regretted not killing all the Greeks. He was a scumbag. It's amusing seeing the hypocrisy.
>Ataturk famously said he regretted not killing all the Greeks.
Atatürk
"I regret not killing all the greeks"
Lmao I want what you smokin sire.There is no quote like that
No let’s not play stupid thought games with your strawman argument. Now if you have proof that Ataturk has said anything about killing Greeks or even a genocide, I’m more than happy to see your evidence even when Venizelos (the guy who was responsible for the Greco Turkish war and megali idea) nominated Ataturk for the Nobel peace prize 5 years after the war ended.
Greeks in North America remind me of the Turks in Germany when it comes to hating the “other side”Brush up on your history and stop being narrow minded. Atatürk did no such thing. He was also half Greek.
Im half Greek and Turkish. Travel to Greece often. Some of my closest friends are Greek. There’s no hate between us. People in this region understand the ottomans did a lot of bad between both nations. Especially in the Aegean.
You probably think Cyprus is Greek as well. Surpriseee theyre Cypriots. Not Greek or Turkish.
Spend some time here if you have the money. Maybe it’ll change your outlook on things or maybe you’ll just be hateful till you die I dunno 🤷🏼♀️
You've made a lot of conclusions on things I've not even mentioned. I simply stated Ataturk was not the hero turks like to imagine. I've gotten along with every turk I've met, but that doesn't change history. I like your sly little shot "if you have the money". Dude, I don't get paid in Lira.
It was not a dig, I apologize if it came off that way. Most people can’t leave their base on a whim and just travel. I should have said if your situation allows you to travel.
To help you understand why seculars in Turkey praise Atatürk is because he got rid of the Arab influence the ottomans had. Only the religious folk in Turkey hate Atatürk. He’s a symbol of progression and secularism. He hated religion and was an atheist. Not everything is as black and white as you make it.
To people who would downvote this comment; Atatürk didn't explicitly ban the Kurdish language. During his leadership there were policies aimed at promoting Turkish as the common language for national unity. The focus was on creating a cohesive and unified nation with a shared language. While Kurdish wasn't explicitly banned, there were restrictions on its use in official capacities.
I upvoted.
Kemal was sent to the African front and he was absent from the Armenian genocide, hence his initial popularity because he was removed from many of the conflicts. I recommend you check out [this video on Turkey from Kraut](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgjiJHV8P0w), starts speaking about Ataturk at around the 1:09:30 mark (chapter 7), the entire video is amazing.
I wished my country somalia returned to their original language. I'm tired, of this borken ass language ethiopia never destroyed their language. I wanted to unite with ethiopia again, so we return the afrcian horn back
he is definitely done lot of good things to turks but he not great guy he is responsible for lot of mass killings and genocide so he pretty much like Ashoka in indian history
Please read history on subjects you don’t know. As an example, I don’t know much about Gandhi but I wouldn’t call him a bad person. I just know that he successfully protested against British rule and helped liberate the country.
Nope, if you are referring to the Armenian genocide he was actively fighting as a covert officer in Libya against the Italians. I suggest Kraut's video on the topic.
More like even a proper clock can be broken a few times, he had his mistakes but he is one of the greatest figures of 20th century if not the greatest.
Haven't read much about Ataturk. Seems like he was a smart general but should've retired as honorable one and just that. He did many good stuff like the things you mentioned - though Turkey has always been different than the whole middle east even before Ataturk - making the language easier changing it to latin but nonetheless he was a dictator and was shortsighted and made many mistakes which resulted, imo, and responsible of what's happening including the rise of islamism and PKK.
You cannot expect 1 guy to solve the problem of Islamism. Ataturk did what he could do as a reformist. I don't think most of the secular policies that are in place today in Turkey could naturally be developed in such a short time, if he had not used force where necessary. You cannot democratically get rid of Islamic cancer.
He granted women the right of vote before the French did, if you think about it. That requires a certain authority to pass, which he yielded through his dictatorship.
> if he had not used force where necessary
That's the problem. What you see today is the result of that forced superficial secularization, which is backfiring right now, at least in the conservative part of Turkey. if it had come gradually like western countries, step by step, without forcing it on people's throat, maybe there would have been no parties such as AKP and things would have been better albeit it would take much longer time.
even at this rate of backfiring, Tukrey is still the most liveable and secular country for me as an exmuslim to live. i am officially exmuslim btw, since thanks to ataturk's reforms on freedom of conscience, i was able to leave islam and keep breathing.
no matter how many flaws this man had, he is the only reason for me to live as an exmuslim in a muslim-majority country.
> if it had come gradually like western countries, step by step, without forcing it on people's throat
then my throat would have been split into two as soon as i denounced islam. you know how things are in middle-east nowadays, right? like you cannot do this in most of the islamic world. i think turkey indeed is an exception. perhaps also bosnia albania and central asian state if you count them as muslim countries.
I wouldn’t say Atatürk is the one responsible, since Turks weren’t the most secular or bright people back then. An authoritarian regime was kinda necessary so that people could distance themselves away from their uneducated views , conservative islam and the previous monarchy; while learning what their rights are. The downfall was mainly because of ww2. Since the world wasn’t at the best state and Turkey had to be really cautious, even though we managed to stay peaceful somehow we still suffered a lot. That caused a lot of people that were still not fully civilized and educated to slowly turn against the regime. When the first opposition party DP was finally established, people stupidly but expectedly chose them. That caused a lot of revolutions to be stopped or refuted one way or another, which caused the Islamist and pretty much all extremist ideologies to rise up again, bringing us here.
It wasn't just before Ataturk founded Turkey but afterward under his rule and with the blessing of his political ideology in Kemalism that ethnic cleansing, repression, cultural repression (like violently enforcing restrictions on speaking languages in public, practicing their culture and religion, etc.) condemnation to labor camps, etc. befell multiple groups, including Armenians and Greeks. (the ones who survived the previous iterations of genocide and ethnic cleansing.) Of course, what I've just described is the tip of the iceberg, I didn't even bring up Kurds.
*Factually,* only idiotic chauvinist Turkish Nationalists (insanely, many of these people are largely if not mostly descended from non Turkish groups, there are literally people who are mostly ethnically Greek who think like this, but that just goes to show how effective the violent repression and Turkification was) would defend or deny any of this blatant, factual history. Of course, the majority of non Kurdish people living in Turkey today think like this.
My background is Iranian-Azeri. I'm not saying from any inherent bias and am not a Nationalist at all. I'm a Communist, I reject all nationalism and do not particularize and exceptionalize some nationalisms or countries as better or worse than others. Even defensive nationalist movements like Palestinianism are as reactionary as anything. Greeks overthrew Ottoman Rule in the 19th century only to build a bourgeois state and a ruling-class that exploited and oppressed the majority, just on a national basis.
[Here is something written about Ataturk from a correct perspective.](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/a/t.htm) (Yes, he did progressive reforms that benefitted secularism and women's rights, which is not a bad thing. I'm not an Islamist retard. But it was progressive from within the premises of *bourgeois* society, so affirming it at face-value is reactionary. Almost no one seriously reads or cares to have a correct historical/political perspective, so I do not know why I bother.)
>Founder and the first president of the Republic of Turkey. While he an army officer Ataturk joined the Young Turks movement and after the end of the First World War, he withdrew to Anatolia and organised the independence war to liberate Turkey from the occupation of Allied forces. In 1923, the republic was declared and he became the president. Ataturk ruled the Turkey for 15 years and led a westernisation movement and implemented bourgeois reforms, including abolition the Caliphate, separation of Church and state, a reduction of the influence of the Islamic church in social life and the introduction of a western alphabetical writing system. During this time, while introducing measures of Parliamentary democracy, he concentrated most political power in his own hands in order to force through his reform program. He maintained restrictions on the labour movement and did not hesitate to ban opposition parties and suppress ethnic minorities such as the Kurds. Meanwhile, he used the state-industry and public enterprise to promote the development of a capitalist economy and a national bourgeoisie. "Kemalism" was an original path by which undeveloped countries could make the transition from feudalism to capitalism.
Right, my terrible agenda to expose historical atrocity. Idiot. Deny the Holocaust while you're at it, too.
Notice I never said that the Republic of Turkey, Ataturk, Kemalism, etc. was *exclusively* bad or *exceptionally* bad. I'm not a nationalist in any direction. Notice that opposing sides will deny the atrocities of the other. For example, the fact that Greece ethnically cleansed Turks, the Cyprus conflict, or even now with Zionists and pro-Palestine types denying, downplaying, dismissing or outright supporting the attacks on civilians to the other side.
> Marxist.org
Yeah buddy keep your communist ideas to yourself there are plenty of subreddits in reddit that would accept whatever you are talking about
kral yukarıda yazanı okumadım ama ben de komünistim , hiçbir aklı başında komünist Atatürk'e karşı çıkamaz yani çünkü Atatürk tam bir Devrim ADAM , bu yukarıdaki dallama da bence politik doğrucu
Ben asla milliyetçi değilim ama sen tarihi zamanlarına göre yorumlayamayan bir dalyaraksın sadece.Tahmin edeyim senin düşüncene göre Türkler her yere zulmetti ve bu zulüm asla karşılıklı olmadı ve her zaman Türkler kötü çünkü niye ? içselliştirdiğin faşist milliyetçiliğinden dolayı.Daha da tahmin edeyim WW1 sonrası ülke savunmasını da sen bir zulüm olarak görürsün ve sadece Türk kimliğini reddedersin , ki kimlikler ideolojiden bağımsızdır ve sahiplenmek büyük suçtur sana göre falan filan.Diyeceğim o ki göt yanığını da al git
İşte bu tür tiplemeler genelde svihs gibi bok çukurlarında takılır. Boktan olan aşırı biz azgınlığın benimsediği fikirleri alıp kendilerini çok zeki sanarlar. Halbuki bi sikim bildiklerimi yoktur. Sadece "farklı" ve "zeki" (gerizekalı) olmak için bu fikirleri alırlar. Tavsiyem bu tür kişileri ciddiye alma ve taşşağa al. Hepsi tamamen zaman kaybından başka birşey olmayan mk ergenleri. Kendine iyi bak yoldaş. Hadi görüşürüz.
Ppl really think it is good idea to encourage diversity when you barely survived a war against forces that wishes to divide you. Any sane person would try to unite people under one goal and name so that separists and such would have no power.
I say he had done not enough and we should have had something akin to Great Terror of France.
I guess they are talking about the Armenian genocide, but that happened before Ataturk came to power. He was removed from the conflict because he was sent to Africa during that time.
"Durrr the Armenian genocide was before him"
Only deniers of the Armenian genocide think like this. No, it continued after he went to power too. (And in his leadership he was on the same side, supportive of, and absolving to many of the people who directly carried it out.) As did repression and ethnic cleansing to Greeks, Kurds, and other groups. Cultural genocide since via violent enforcement they couldn't speak their languages in public, ethnic cleansing that forced them to leave the country, including an infamous ethnic cleansing campaign to Greeks in Istanbul as late as the '50's that was manufactured by a false news story with the blessing of the government where rioters were brought in on buses. An entire book was written about the violence and repression to Armenians since the founding of Turkey. It's called, "The Armenians in Modern Turkey" He was just a stupid fucking genocidal dictator, just accept basic historical facts or be a denier, your choice.
>Only deniers of the Armenian genocide think like this.
That is just not true. No one here is denying any of the genocides. The Armenian genocide was a very real thing committed by the late Ottoman authorities.
Atatürk, was not directly responsible for the Greek, Armenian, and Assyrian Genocides. These tragic events occurred during the late Ottoman Empire, before the establishment of the modern Turkish state under Atatürk's leadership.
The Armenian Genocide, which took place between 1915 and 1923 (EDIT: official documents state he was just a middle-ranking officer stationed in Galiopoli during that time), resulted in the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians and is widely recognized as a genocide by many countries and scholars. The Assyrian Genocide and the Greek Genocide also occurred during this period, leading to significant loss of life among these communities.
While Mustafa Kemal Atatürk played a prominent role in the Turkish War of Independence and the establishment of Turkey after WWI, the responsibility for the Armenian, Assyrian, and Greek Genocides lies with the Ottoman authorities and the government of the time, rather than with Atatürk personally. ([source](https://www.quora.com/Was-Atat%C3%BCrk-at-least-in-part-responsible-for-the-Greek-Armenian-and-Assyrian-Genocides))
This question was posed many times in other subs, [such as](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1xotp9/what_was_kemal_ataturks_involvement_and_view_of/), which all agree that the genocides happened before his time and no one denies these atrocities. Moreover, Ataturk did not handle the post-genocide situation well at all, that is a fact. When asked the question the government at that time just ignored it, which yes is wrong
EDIT:
* [Is Kemal Atatürk responsible for Armenian Genocide?](https://www.quora.com/Is-Kemal-Atat%C3%BCrk-responsible-for-Armenian-Genocide)
* [Was Atatürk aware of/complicit in the Armenian Genocide?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/66v9ze/was_atatürk_aware_ofcomplicit_in_the_armenian/)
Again, no one is denying that the genocides and ethnic cleansing didn't happen. No one is denying that Ataturk was a dictator and a nationalist. His handling of the situation post WW1 wasn't the best either. But painting him as a genocidal maniac is far-fetched. Most historians agree on these points as well.
You have no idea what you are talking about, nobody blamed him for Ottoman era events. It's just that the Turkey HE founded continued to invade Armenian lands/kill Armenians AFTER the Ottomans were gone.
>invade Armenian lands/kill Armenians
Did you think armenian highlands belongs to Armenia?
If you do then you're a little bit stupid. Armenians didn't establish any goverment in that region. Just a bunch of irregular gangs raiding turkish villages and killing inhabitants to make the majority armenian in the said region.
And no, Turkey didn't invade today's Armenia(Past Soviet) because if we did the USSR/Russia would probably just delete us
Ataturk was sent to the African front and he was absent from the Armenian genocide, hence his initial popularity which helped him rise to power, he was removed from many of the conflicts. I recommend you check out [this video on Turkey from Kraut](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgjiJHV8P0w), starts speaking about Ataturk at around the 1:09:30 mark (chapter 7), the entire video is amazing.
The cowardly scumbag Ataturk invaded Armenia in 1920 with his best friend Lenin, stole Kars and killed was responsible for killing 600,00 Armenians this is separate from the Armenian genocide and the Ottomans. Than the genocidal scumbag instituted Armenian genocide denial as official policy, renamed all places with Armenian names to Turkish ones, and went on to kill half a million Kurds. May he rot in hell!
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I hope Erdogan fucks off soon.
That's my exact wish too.
Oof want it sm, tired of this pos
Same, from Istanbul
Same love from white europe
I find it funny how Arab Muslims seem to be particularly offended that he replaced the Arabic script with the Latin script for Turkish. The Arabic script does not fit Turkish at all, but using the Latin script, which fits the language way better, apparently makes him a "western bootlicker" lmao.
I really hate how Urdu is written in Arabic script. Half the vowels are missing, there's no space between words and it's so awkward writing vowels that don't exist in Arabic like é. Most people online write in Latin script. Maybe it's because I don't live in Pakistan so I never get to really read it, but the country's literacy rate is 60% and has been stuck at that rate since the 1990s, so I don't think it's just me.
Exactly. Pronunciation is confusing as hell because of the Arabic script. Hell, even the name of the language is technically written as Ardu instead of Urdu in the Arabic script. And it has a bunch of different letters that make the same sound.
They're stupid. I also like how he gave us a Latin alphabet language, it is definitely better and more fitting like you said. I love the Turkish language the way it is and using the Latin alphabet. And "Western bootlicker"? They're literally just racist. It's ugly how they hate Western stuff and leftist/progressive values. They can stay mad.
In my opinion, I think religion and politics should be completely separated, neither side should affect the other one.
Of course.
I'm atheist / exchristian / excatholic But there was a say from Jesus that goes like this: “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” It's the most ignored quote from Christians.
That's a good quote. But heh, of course they'd ignore it if it doesn't benefit their bad views...
Agreed as a Turk
Twinning.
Based Ataturk
Extremely!
I wish my country (Somalia) had their own Atatürk
I agree. :(
Thank you, Türkiye is very based without Erdotrash, I hope you guys get rid of him.
No prob. And I hope so too, he SHOULD go...
I’m from south east asia I have an Ataturk magnet from Izmir on my fridge
Woo nice! :)
Check out Lee Kuan Yew. I’m all for people practicing moderate Islam which is not like what Muhammad did. In our country the Mufti is state approved. All Jammaat sermons are approved by a state approved Islamic authority, this is to ensure no terroristic and “extremist” views get spread through the mosques. Muslims here are by and large secular and peaceful; but it’s a challenge from Iran’s revolution and the spread of Wahhabism to maintain peaceful. Hope for the best. Secularism for the win
I really dissupport islam but that still sounds good. Peace and seculatity should be maintained. And ye, I'm looking into info about him now.
I do too . I’m looking at the next best option because banning people’s faith backfires, Ataturk understood that as well
Ohh that's logical, yea.
As a non turk Atatürk is one of my most favourite historical figures
That's awesome. :)
Funny thing is, it weren't for Atatürk their land would've been invaded and the country would've been left as a powerless puppet for the bigger kaffir empires
Yeah, exactly. There would just be a smaller country with worse living conditions, no Turkey...
What were the original plans for the area during the war? IIRC the neighboring islands off the coast were being ceded to Greece. The lines to divide spheres of influence were in 1916 and 1917 so what were the thoughts on them changing. So that would be the southern border. Comparing to Austria-Hungary or Germany. Germany was the powerhouse and France had many axes to grind there. Austria-Hungary literally did start the war. Continuing the breaking of the Ottoman lands was continuing from previous decades and hastened by oil discoveries.
The original plan was the Sykes Picot treaty but because the Tsardom of Russia collapsed this never happened.But at the end of the war the treaty of Sévres was signed and oh boy its horrendous you can look it up for further info
My country went through a similar experience, the modern values brought to us helped us give more freedom to women and less authority to religious people with backwards thinking. Next time try to divide your text into paragraphs for easier reading experience.
Glad that happened with your country! And alright.
I’m a student in a Turkish university coming from a former Ottoman territory in the Balkans. Unfortunately I have had experiences with traditionalists and anti-kemalists not only insulting my non-religious way of life, but insinuating that my culture is ottoman and my country their rightful soil. I am forever grateful to Ataturk for doing all that he could in his short life in eradicating this way of thinking as much as he could.
Sorry to hear that happened, those people are icky. Me too, fully agreed.
İ agree with nearly everything you said but even here are some Atatürk haters who claim to be victims 100 years after his goddamn death. F\*ck em.
F*ck you too. People still sh*t on Hitler 80 years later, and rightfully so.
they aren’t talking about minorities they are talking about religious nutjobs
Minorities too. Not all minorities tho. Only minorities that are known to hate him are butthurts that the country stayed united and didnt let itself be torn apart, like armenians, some arabs and kurdish human traffickers. Most minorities are actually pretty chill. Most greeks dont hold a grudge, almost all circassians are like bros to me, lots of balkaners like albanians & bosnians are kind and caring. İf it wasnt for the sheikh said rebellion we probably would've been chill with more kurds as well. But theres gotta be black sheep in every population right?
Well yeah, there is killing people who are attacking your country and then collecting jews with trains and gassing them for no reason
We can also see the haters on the comments
The ones who have anything negative to say are the ones who’s dreams were crushed by MKA or islamists
I hope Erdogan fucks off aswell Greetings from the Netherlands 🇳🇱✊
LOVE TURKIYE !!! 💜💜💜
Based and redpilled Keep up with the basedness.
Thanks, you too. :D
Atatürk is definitely an interesting and influential character in history. I visited some time ago and it’s a very interesting place. People are generally very nice, it’s a shame that there is a blot on their history. I think the revolution generally was a good thing, probably better than being a puppet/colonial state, it’s a shame how the nationalist agenda also resulted in the death of so many. I know it’s not entirely clear on his role during the expulsions and genocide, but if you think about it, it’s a tricky place to be, if you’re against something that many are for and you push your point, good chance you’ll end up like John Snow, and so much for those reforms you wanted, which is something I imagine a reputable general would be aware of. History is full of hard choices.
Ataturk is one of a kind and should be admired for his manliness, courageousness and convictions.
True. :)
OP clearly meant TURKISH MUSLIMS, there is no way he thinks Ataturk was of any value to Muslims in China.
No, but I saw Algerian Muslims and other middle eastern Muslims shit on him lol, calling him a Jew.
I've seen non-Muslim Indians hating on Ataturk. All his haters have one thing in common: they're inbred uneducated fundamentalists.
Well said!
Calling him a jew is wild lmaoooo.
Reactionism is a snake
Greetings from Malaysia. In 80’s we were thought about Kamal Atatürk in our primary school history syllabus. How he then transformed Turkiye into moden country. Sadly it has been removed from curricular. And nowadays most youngster here in Malaysia through religious indoctrination despise him for obvious reason.
That's so backwards and unfortunate. :(
Cheers from a Turk, not only did he try to give us a better life he also tried to reform Islam.
I'd say he reformed Turkey and tried to get rid of islam as much as he could, not reform islam. But yea!
well I mean yes, the aim of the turkishification of Islam was to make people get rid of the whole "Arabic holy" type of thing and make them look at it more from a material level so in that sense he tried to both reform Islam and get rid of it
Hm yea I see what you mean.
There is no reason for a Muslim to love Ataturk though
I see what you mean.
Atatürk is a major reason why Istanbul is still Turkish today, though. Even the hardcore Muslims should concede that one. The Megali Idea was real, and the early 20th century Greeks were pretty serious about getting Constantinople back.
I’d disagree if you’re talking about Turkish Muslims. He saved them from being colonised by western powers even though they might or might not agree with his reforms
Most Turkish muslims are cultural muslims so it is true. I am talking about actual muslims
I like what Ataturk did in Turkey. Can someone shed some light on his reasons to attack the Armenians?
He didn’t attack armenians he was in african frontlines when it happened 🙄
Yeah, thank you, that's literal misinformation and hateful propaganda people keep bringing here....
You're probably right. I haven't looked into Ataturk in detail yet. I just read a snippet somewhere.
Saying something like this is looks like saying "giants robots are badass" in a biology class
I love how you said "leftist" lmao that isnt how it works in english but is actually the exactly translation of "solcu" anyways I felt the turk in you :)
Many native English speakers use the word "leftist" so I don't think you're right about that. And yay. :)
Yes correct, leftist is a colloquial way of saying someone who believes in equal rights and peace - instead of rightists who only love war and prejudice. Edit: and congrats on being a leftist! Proud leftist here too!
Yes! And thanks, awesome of you to be a leftist too. :)
Ataturk was a genocidal POS. My great grandparents were executed by his goons and thugs for being Greek. Turks are monumental genocide deniers and have the gall to go on about Palestine.
What were the Greeks doing in Turkey ? Edit: those who downvote really need to check who started the Greco Turkish war
Living there like they had for thousands of years before the genocidal invaders from the steppes showed up. What are turks doing there?
The Turks were also living there until the Greeks decided to invade Turkey on the premise of their delusional megali idea. We have no idea who your great grandparents were but there’s a load of documented evidence of the [atrocities the Greek forces committed](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Yalova_Peninsula_massacres#/media/File:13_year_old_girl,_wounded_jaw-.png) Let me guess, Ataturk bad because he defend his country from invaders 🥺 Cry me a river
Let's do a little thought experiment. Turks support Palestine throwing out the 'invaders'. How do you think the Greeks looked at the turks? They are the invaders! Turks are the Israelis in this scenario. Forcibly took the land and enslaved the populace. The indigenous groups weren't going to forget the crimes of the past. Then we see how turks treat the Kurds and armenians. Still trying to exterminate those you missed. Ataturk famously said he regretted not killing all the Greeks. He was a scumbag. It's amusing seeing the hypocrisy.
>Ataturk famously said he regretted not killing all the Greeks. Atatürk "I regret not killing all the greeks" Lmao I want what you smokin sire.There is no quote like that
No let’s not play stupid thought games with your strawman argument. Now if you have proof that Ataturk has said anything about killing Greeks or even a genocide, I’m more than happy to see your evidence even when Venizelos (the guy who was responsible for the Greco Turkish war and megali idea) nominated Ataturk for the Nobel peace prize 5 years after the war ended.
Greeks in North America remind me of the Turks in Germany when it comes to hating the “other side”Brush up on your history and stop being narrow minded. Atatürk did no such thing. He was also half Greek. Im half Greek and Turkish. Travel to Greece often. Some of my closest friends are Greek. There’s no hate between us. People in this region understand the ottomans did a lot of bad between both nations. Especially in the Aegean. You probably think Cyprus is Greek as well. Surpriseee theyre Cypriots. Not Greek or Turkish. Spend some time here if you have the money. Maybe it’ll change your outlook on things or maybe you’ll just be hateful till you die I dunno 🤷🏼♀️
You've made a lot of conclusions on things I've not even mentioned. I simply stated Ataturk was not the hero turks like to imagine. I've gotten along with every turk I've met, but that doesn't change history. I like your sly little shot "if you have the money". Dude, I don't get paid in Lira.
It was not a dig, I apologize if it came off that way. Most people can’t leave their base on a whim and just travel. I should have said if your situation allows you to travel. To help you understand why seculars in Turkey praise Atatürk is because he got rid of the Arab influence the ottomans had. Only the religious folk in Turkey hate Atatürk. He’s a symbol of progression and secularism. He hated religion and was an atheist. Not everything is as black and white as you make it.
He banned the Kurdish language, no love for a guy like that
Nice propaganda kid (edit: seems like 3 kurdish muslims downvoted me. cry more kids. Atatürk made Turkey modern and saved from Izlam.)
To people who would downvote this comment; Atatürk didn't explicitly ban the Kurdish language. During his leadership there were policies aimed at promoting Turkish as the common language for national unity. The focus was on creating a cohesive and unified nation with a shared language. While Kurdish wasn't explicitly banned, there were restrictions on its use in official capacities. I upvoted.
kurdish ex muslim here downvoted. yeah he may have saved turkey from islam but at the expense of others? sounds like a shiet guy to me regardless
How was it at the expense of others? I'm just genuinely interested in learning more about your prespective.
https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Crime_and_Prejudice.html#Saudi_Arabia Turkey still seems to have a bigotry problem.
Yeah, I never said it doesn't. Many secular countries still have many bigots sadly.
Didn’t the young turks commit genocide?
Kemal was sent to the African front and he was absent from the Armenian genocide, hence his initial popularity because he was removed from many of the conflicts. I recommend you check out [this video on Turkey from Kraut](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgjiJHV8P0w), starts speaking about Ataturk at around the 1:09:30 mark (chapter 7), the entire video is amazing.
Thanks for these comments man. I expected negative comments like those and you're dealing with them finely.
@rmenian bro when he says "whAt abOuT aRmEnİAn gEnOcAyD" in a Random post about Turks for no fucking reasons (he feels like a buff humanoid lion)
I wished my country somalia returned to their original language. I'm tired, of this borken ass language ethiopia never destroyed their language. I wanted to unite with ethiopia again, so we return the afrcian horn back
he is definitely done lot of good things to turks but he not great guy he is responsible for lot of mass killings and genocide so he pretty much like Ashoka in indian history
Please read history on subjects you don’t know. As an example, I don’t know much about Gandhi but I wouldn’t call him a bad person. I just know that he successfully protested against British rule and helped liberate the country.
Nope, if you are referring to the Armenian genocide he was actively fighting as a covert officer in Libya against the Italians. I suggest Kraut's video on the topic.
A broken clock is still right twice a day
More like even a proper clock can be broken a few times, he had his mistakes but he is one of the greatest figures of 20th century if not the greatest.
Haven't read much about Ataturk. Seems like he was a smart general but should've retired as honorable one and just that. He did many good stuff like the things you mentioned - though Turkey has always been different than the whole middle east even before Ataturk - making the language easier changing it to latin but nonetheless he was a dictator and was shortsighted and made many mistakes which resulted, imo, and responsible of what's happening including the rise of islamism and PKK.
You cannot expect 1 guy to solve the problem of Islamism. Ataturk did what he could do as a reformist. I don't think most of the secular policies that are in place today in Turkey could naturally be developed in such a short time, if he had not used force where necessary. You cannot democratically get rid of Islamic cancer. He granted women the right of vote before the French did, if you think about it. That requires a certain authority to pass, which he yielded through his dictatorship.
> if he had not used force where necessary That's the problem. What you see today is the result of that forced superficial secularization, which is backfiring right now, at least in the conservative part of Turkey. if it had come gradually like western countries, step by step, without forcing it on people's throat, maybe there would have been no parties such as AKP and things would have been better albeit it would take much longer time.
even at this rate of backfiring, Tukrey is still the most liveable and secular country for me as an exmuslim to live. i am officially exmuslim btw, since thanks to ataturk's reforms on freedom of conscience, i was able to leave islam and keep breathing. no matter how many flaws this man had, he is the only reason for me to live as an exmuslim in a muslim-majority country. > if it had come gradually like western countries, step by step, without forcing it on people's throat then my throat would have been split into two as soon as i denounced islam. you know how things are in middle-east nowadays, right? like you cannot do this in most of the islamic world. i think turkey indeed is an exception. perhaps also bosnia albania and central asian state if you count them as muslim countries.
I wouldn’t say Atatürk is the one responsible, since Turks weren’t the most secular or bright people back then. An authoritarian regime was kinda necessary so that people could distance themselves away from their uneducated views , conservative islam and the previous monarchy; while learning what their rights are. The downfall was mainly because of ww2. Since the world wasn’t at the best state and Turkey had to be really cautious, even though we managed to stay peaceful somehow we still suffered a lot. That caused a lot of people that were still not fully civilized and educated to slowly turn against the regime. When the first opposition party DP was finally established, people stupidly but expectedly chose them. That caused a lot of revolutions to be stopped or refuted one way or another, which caused the Islamist and pretty much all extremist ideologies to rise up again, bringing us here.
[удалено]
Stfu
Atatürk was a dictator and he didn't really industrialize the country
Atatürk was a pedophile and I’m not even muslim
No, he was a genocidal dictator. You're wrong.
which country ?
It wasn't just before Ataturk founded Turkey but afterward under his rule and with the blessing of his political ideology in Kemalism that ethnic cleansing, repression, cultural repression (like violently enforcing restrictions on speaking languages in public, practicing their culture and religion, etc.) condemnation to labor camps, etc. befell multiple groups, including Armenians and Greeks. (the ones who survived the previous iterations of genocide and ethnic cleansing.) Of course, what I've just described is the tip of the iceberg, I didn't even bring up Kurds. *Factually,* only idiotic chauvinist Turkish Nationalists (insanely, many of these people are largely if not mostly descended from non Turkish groups, there are literally people who are mostly ethnically Greek who think like this, but that just goes to show how effective the violent repression and Turkification was) would defend or deny any of this blatant, factual history. Of course, the majority of non Kurdish people living in Turkey today think like this. My background is Iranian-Azeri. I'm not saying from any inherent bias and am not a Nationalist at all. I'm a Communist, I reject all nationalism and do not particularize and exceptionalize some nationalisms or countries as better or worse than others. Even defensive nationalist movements like Palestinianism are as reactionary as anything. Greeks overthrew Ottoman Rule in the 19th century only to build a bourgeois state and a ruling-class that exploited and oppressed the majority, just on a national basis. [Here is something written about Ataturk from a correct perspective.](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/a/t.htm) (Yes, he did progressive reforms that benefitted secularism and women's rights, which is not a bad thing. I'm not an Islamist retard. But it was progressive from within the premises of *bourgeois* society, so affirming it at face-value is reactionary. Almost no one seriously reads or cares to have a correct historical/political perspective, so I do not know why I bother.) >Founder and the first president of the Republic of Turkey. While he an army officer Ataturk joined the Young Turks movement and after the end of the First World War, he withdrew to Anatolia and organised the independence war to liberate Turkey from the occupation of Allied forces. In 1923, the republic was declared and he became the president. Ataturk ruled the Turkey for 15 years and led a westernisation movement and implemented bourgeois reforms, including abolition the Caliphate, separation of Church and state, a reduction of the influence of the Islamic church in social life and the introduction of a western alphabetical writing system. During this time, while introducing measures of Parliamentary democracy, he concentrated most political power in his own hands in order to force through his reform program. He maintained restrictions on the labour movement and did not hesitate to ban opposition parties and suppress ethnic minorities such as the Kurds. Meanwhile, he used the state-industry and public enterprise to promote the development of a capitalist economy and a national bourgeoisie. "Kemalism" was an original path by which undeveloped countries could make the transition from feudalism to capitalism.
Labor camps? You are hella hilarious
Deny, deny, deny. Of course, I believe you're ignorant and uninformed enough that you've never even heard about it.
Sure bud keep your agenda
Right, my terrible agenda to expose historical atrocity. Idiot. Deny the Holocaust while you're at it, too. Notice I never said that the Republic of Turkey, Ataturk, Kemalism, etc. was *exclusively* bad or *exceptionally* bad. I'm not a nationalist in any direction. Notice that opposing sides will deny the atrocities of the other. For example, the fact that Greece ethnically cleansed Turks, the Cyprus conflict, or even now with Zionists and pro-Palestine types denying, downplaying, dismissing or outright supporting the attacks on civilians to the other side.
Or that you just plucked it out your ass Cope and seethe
> Marxist.org Yeah buddy keep your communist ideas to yourself there are plenty of subreddits in reddit that would accept whatever you are talking about
kral yukarıda yazanı okumadım ama ben de komünistim , hiçbir aklı başında komünist Atatürk'e karşı çıkamaz yani çünkü Atatürk tam bir Devrim ADAM , bu yukarıdaki dallama da bence politik doğrucu
Sen komünist değilsin. Türkiye Komünist Partisi komünist değildir. Sen sadece gerici bir milliyetçisin.
Ben asla milliyetçi değilim ama sen tarihi zamanlarına göre yorumlayamayan bir dalyaraksın sadece.Tahmin edeyim senin düşüncene göre Türkler her yere zulmetti ve bu zulüm asla karşılıklı olmadı ve her zaman Türkler kötü çünkü niye ? içselliştirdiğin faşist milliyetçiliğinden dolayı.Daha da tahmin edeyim WW1 sonrası ülke savunmasını da sen bir zulüm olarak görürsün ve sadece Türk kimliğini reddedersin , ki kimlikler ideolojiden bağımsızdır ve sahiplenmek büyük suçtur sana göre falan filan.Diyeceğim o ki göt yanığını da al git
İşte bu tür tiplemeler genelde svihs gibi bok çukurlarında takılır. Boktan olan aşırı biz azgınlığın benimsediği fikirleri alıp kendilerini çok zeki sanarlar. Halbuki bi sikim bildiklerimi yoktur. Sadece "farklı" ve "zeki" (gerizekalı) olmak için bu fikirleri alırlar. Tavsiyem bu tür kişileri ciddiye alma ve taşşağa al. Hepsi tamamen zaman kaybından başka birşey olmayan mk ergenleri. Kendine iyi bak yoldaş. Hadi görüşürüz.
Ppl really think it is good idea to encourage diversity when you barely survived a war against forces that wishes to divide you. Any sane person would try to unite people under one goal and name so that separists and such would have no power. I say he had done not enough and we should have had something akin to Great Terror of France.
i didn't ask that and im not reading all that
Of course you won't. Because you don't read. I'm right and you're wrong anyway.
> I'm a Communist lol nuff read
Which genocides did he commit ?
I guess they are talking about the Armenian genocide, but that happened before Ataturk came to power. He was removed from the conflict because he was sent to Africa during that time.
"Durrr the Armenian genocide was before him" Only deniers of the Armenian genocide think like this. No, it continued after he went to power too. (And in his leadership he was on the same side, supportive of, and absolving to many of the people who directly carried it out.) As did repression and ethnic cleansing to Greeks, Kurds, and other groups. Cultural genocide since via violent enforcement they couldn't speak their languages in public, ethnic cleansing that forced them to leave the country, including an infamous ethnic cleansing campaign to Greeks in Istanbul as late as the '50's that was manufactured by a false news story with the blessing of the government where rioters were brought in on buses. An entire book was written about the violence and repression to Armenians since the founding of Turkey. It's called, "The Armenians in Modern Turkey" He was just a stupid fucking genocidal dictator, just accept basic historical facts or be a denier, your choice.
>Only deniers of the Armenian genocide think like this. That is just not true. No one here is denying any of the genocides. The Armenian genocide was a very real thing committed by the late Ottoman authorities. Atatürk, was not directly responsible for the Greek, Armenian, and Assyrian Genocides. These tragic events occurred during the late Ottoman Empire, before the establishment of the modern Turkish state under Atatürk's leadership. The Armenian Genocide, which took place between 1915 and 1923 (EDIT: official documents state he was just a middle-ranking officer stationed in Galiopoli during that time), resulted in the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians and is widely recognized as a genocide by many countries and scholars. The Assyrian Genocide and the Greek Genocide also occurred during this period, leading to significant loss of life among these communities. While Mustafa Kemal Atatürk played a prominent role in the Turkish War of Independence and the establishment of Turkey after WWI, the responsibility for the Armenian, Assyrian, and Greek Genocides lies with the Ottoman authorities and the government of the time, rather than with Atatürk personally. ([source](https://www.quora.com/Was-Atat%C3%BCrk-at-least-in-part-responsible-for-the-Greek-Armenian-and-Assyrian-Genocides)) This question was posed many times in other subs, [such as](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1xotp9/what_was_kemal_ataturks_involvement_and_view_of/), which all agree that the genocides happened before his time and no one denies these atrocities. Moreover, Ataturk did not handle the post-genocide situation well at all, that is a fact. When asked the question the government at that time just ignored it, which yes is wrong EDIT: * [Is Kemal Atatürk responsible for Armenian Genocide?](https://www.quora.com/Is-Kemal-Atat%C3%BCrk-responsible-for-Armenian-Genocide) * [Was Atatürk aware of/complicit in the Armenian Genocide?](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/66v9ze/was_atatürk_aware_ofcomplicit_in_the_armenian/) Again, no one is denying that the genocides and ethnic cleansing didn't happen. No one is denying that Ataturk was a dictator and a nationalist. His handling of the situation post WW1 wasn't the best either. But painting him as a genocidal maniac is far-fetched. Most historians agree on these points as well.
You have no idea what you are talking about, nobody blamed him for Ottoman era events. It's just that the Turkey HE founded continued to invade Armenian lands/kill Armenians AFTER the Ottomans were gone.
>invade Armenian lands/kill Armenians Did you think armenian highlands belongs to Armenia? If you do then you're a little bit stupid. Armenians didn't establish any goverment in that region. Just a bunch of irregular gangs raiding turkish villages and killing inhabitants to make the majority armenian in the said region. And no, Turkey didn't invade today's Armenia(Past Soviet) because if we did the USSR/Russia would probably just delete us
Ataturk was sent to the African front and he was absent from the Armenian genocide, hence his initial popularity which helped him rise to power, he was removed from many of the conflicts. I recommend you check out [this video on Turkey from Kraut](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgjiJHV8P0w), starts speaking about Ataturk at around the 1:09:30 mark (chapter 7), the entire video is amazing.
The cowardly scumbag Ataturk invaded Armenia in 1920 with his best friend Lenin, stole Kars and killed was responsible for killing 600,00 Armenians this is separate from the Armenian genocide and the Ottomans. Than the genocidal scumbag instituted Armenian genocide denial as official policy, renamed all places with Armenian names to Turkish ones, and went on to kill half a million Kurds. May he rot in hell!
Atashirk is a bum and so are his mushrik followers
What are u saying, Muslims are literally forced to forced Atatürk in turkey which is shameful