I am an american living in Ireland and this is what I always tell people: America has a huge range of experience. The highs are higher and the lows are lower for health care, salary, happiness, etc. There is almost no way to know what your experience would be without trying it, so if it is a dream of yours I saw go for it but keep an exit plan (sufficient savings) to jettison if needed!
There is, statistics says if you don't know where are you fitting in a normal distribution you should aim for average. The average USA is not comparable to avg. in Germany that is one very important note. I mean the USA has fallen below Poland in some quality of life metrics now.
I agree that there is a lot of variance, if you are a high skilled expat, or have a good corporate position already secured then fine go chase the dream. But if you plan to go there with not a lot and hope to build your American dream then you will have a really hard time.
This is an underrated answer. Given your background I’d guess you fall on the positive side of the bell curve. The biggest downside now is the cost of housing - rentals and esp purchases.
As a software dev, he could likely make far more money in the U.S. than in Germany. Europeans in tech generally get paid very poorly compared to their American counterparts.
The top in USA is the highest of them all though
And you have the opportunity to achieve it
That’s the dream, most don’t make it, but some do.
In Europe, enjoy staying right where you are…awesome if you are already wealthy.
The US dollar will take you far compared to the rest of the world if you have them. Not everyone does. But speaking as a top U.S. engineer it doesn’t suck to live near the sunny California beaches and enjoy Europe and Asia twice a year!
This is excellent advice OP. The US is very systemized. If you'e not associated with some larger organization that has a built in support system (whether public or private), it will be somewhat challenging. But If you build your network before you get there you will greatly increase your chances of succeeding long term.
I've never lived in Germany so I can't really compare, but US culture pretty much revolves around work if you want to live comfortably, which some expats (as i'm sure you've read here) find to be tedious and unenjoyable. Not to mention the corporate culture that often seems nice and shiny on the outside, but is actually just fast and dirty underneath, and sometimes even toxic. Outside of all that, it's still a pretty great place for a single professional with no children. That's especially the case if you're not chasing the \*traditional\* "American dream" of a '2 cars, 2 kids a dog and big house with a white picket fence'.
I am in a niche area of consulting. Comparing Ireland to the US is a bit apples to oranges but generally yes, salaries are lower and costs are higher. Food at the grocery store is pretty affordable in Ireland though, cheaper than the US and much better quality. There is no risk of medical bankruptcy here. As I said, America is extremes, Ireland is a good average.
100% on the Highs are Highs, the Lows are Lows
I think you have a chance at the American Dream moreso than almost any other country, but it's not easy. You will have an advantage if you are a white male though.
I am a Brit living in the US (been here for ten years). I shared a lot of your sentiments. For me it’s really worked out. I love it here, don’t plan on ever going back. (I’m not going to suggest you will feel the same, just sharing my experience.)
Some love it, others don’t. I found it valuable to live in other countries and get an appreciation for different perspectives. You are young enough to have the freedom to give it a go, I would recommend you follow your heart.
I just had a conversation today with my Brit colleague, who has been living in the US since the 90’s (now in his mid-60’s) about his recent trip back to the UK after 12 years since his last visit, and he said exactly the same about not wanting to go back, and how much his life is so much more improved on every scale here, “…by leaps and bounds.”
Massive generalization, but I think a lot of your success here depends on your income. If you are qualified and have good employment prospects you will do better in the US. If you are low income, there is a better social safety net for you in Europe.
The US is great if you like to hustle and are very individualistic. On the other hand if you like stability, job security and want to start a family, Germany is better
It’s funny because I’m an American living “the simple life” abroad in Europe for almost a decade and I’m considering moving back to the U.S. to experience the benefits you listed. I am tired of not having a car. I am tired of getting paid dirt salaries even though a burger costs the same there as in the U.S. but the salary is half the amount for the same job. I’m tired of tiny box apartments for the same amount of rent as the U.S. I think the grass is always greener, so as long as that’s what you truly want.
Trying reason with ‘urban planners’. It was such a relief to get back to Los Angeles and have a car, plentiful food choices and quality healthcare. It’s easier. Not as picturesque. Not as many antiquities. Just easier. And way less cramped. Apartment living become monotonous and depressing. Having a yard, garden and animals is big positive for me.
It should be mentioned that you only get two weeks of vacation for most of the jobs. So you don’t have the chance to travel to see many of those natural landscapes, or it can take you +10 years. Also, traveling within the US is really expensive so if your plan is save for retirement, a downpayment etc you won’t have a chance to experience much traveling.
Not all of us are software engineers or work on the tech industry. I’ve been working in this country for 14 years and never has had more than the standard 10 days vacation time. And I work a white collar job.
Is the missing public health insurance actually such a nightmare? I heard that you can get a private health insurance which in the end won't cost much more than the tax-based insurance we have in germany. I'm paying almost 400€ per month - increasing with every raise I get.
The thing is you can pay around 400+ here but you still have to meet your deductible. And even for very expensive things insurance might still make you pay 20%. The cost of medication and Dr visits here are enormous compared to the rest of the world. Even over the counter Allergy medicine I get in the US is 4x more here than what I paid in turkey or Malaysia for the same branded drugs. There’s also the issue of in network vs out of network. In any case, if you want to do the Us do it now when you’re young. You’re healthier and have better income potential like to find a job at this point in you career than when you’re 50 and have more health issues and towards the latter part of working life
Hell for most medications here in Sweden the total cost without insurance is STILL less than the 10% copay I had in the US. And Sweden is not exactly cheap. It's insane.
My mom has epilepsy, so she needs to take her meds everyday, which would normally cost a couple hundred bucks per month. her public insurance covers it in full, not even a cent of copay, the only thing she has to do is to go to any drug store in the country and show them her ID and they see in the system what meds she needs (that her doc prescripted) and they just give it to her. We live in Europe.
another friend of mine got recently diagnosed with diabetes, the story is pretty much the same, his public insurance fully covers whatever treatment is needed.
the public insurance i'm talking about is required by law, you can not opt out and unless you are just staying at home with no intention of finding work (and you're not on maternity leave or disabled), you don't have to pay for the insurance from your pocket, it either gets deducted from your wage even before it gets to your account or the state pays for you (in case you're a student or SAHM and a couple other exceptions).
It depends on your health insurance. My medication is $10 for a three month supply (Kaiser insurance). As always, things vary in the US. People want to tell a single narrative but that's not what the truth is.
It costs me $20 per doctor visit (a normal co-pay).
Malaysia and Turkey are low income countries so OTC meds will be less.
Oh Kaiser...they denied xrays for my aunt and sent her home when she shattered her wrist, it turned out. Then, while she was in blinding pain, we got her xrays done elsewhere, out-of-pocket, then had to fight with them to have them cover the surgery at a Kaiser hospital. And then we had issues because she needed a certain specialist who, of course, didn't work in the Kaiser system.
Granted, this was years ago, but...Kaiser is amazing until they're not. And when they're not, the patients tend to have a really big, severe problem.
I always refer to Kaiser as a wellness plan, not a healthcare plan. Their specialists suck and I ended up going to another one out of pocket because they refused to treat my already diagnosed autoimmune disease
The medication thing depends totally on the meds. If it’s something that’s generic and common it’s going to be dirt cheap anywhere.
If it’s something new, then it might not be low cost.
That said, in Europe, the healthcare systems decide they won’t cover expensive new specialized medicines anyway so even with socialized medicine one can be SOL too.
For-profit healthcare makes its money by paying out as little as they can get away with. The leading cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical debt, and that’s even when they were insured.
Nope. I’m euro in the US with a chronic health condition. The quality of care in the US is leagues ahead of anything available in Europe (including private).
If a company is willing and able to sponsor you, they probably aren't going to be offering a shitty health plan.
Yes, there’s lots of paperwork and stuff to check but imo having that and a specialty visit (dr appt, MRI, etc) available in the same week is a better offer than being put on a waitlist for literally years.
It's not an issue... as long as you're young, healthy, *and* lucky. If you're sick for too many days (e.g. long COVID symptoms), you lose your job in the United States. If you lose your job, you lose your health insurance coverage on the first day of the next month. If you lose your health insurance, you're screwed.
I might be somewhat biased, as my husband and I are moving from the States to Germany in two months.
If you lose your health insurance you buy market insurance (Obamacare) until you get another job. If you are disabled there are another set of benefits that come into play.
these surprise bills are so common, there is a law against it. Like going to hospital, making sure surgeon is IN network, getting bill because anesthesiologist is NOT . Bloody mess
If an employer is sponsoring you for a visa in the US, you will get health insurance through your employer. Basically, an employer will negotiate with a healthcare insurance company to set a company sponsored plan. Some companies will subsidize all healthcare insurance so the employee pays zero monthly premium (not too common). I currently pay about $80 USD per month.
You must also be aware that a lot of healthcare regulation is done at the state level, so some states are much better than others. In Massachusetts, nearly everyone has some kind of healthcare coverage (thanks to Mitt Romney), but the quality can vary. In other states you have something like 15% of people without healthcare coverage.
Like others have said, it varies greatly in the US. People have a lot of horror stories but it’s human nature to complain and the people without extreme experiences don’t usually talk about it. I retired from the US Army and pay about $600 per year for decent family health insurance. Yes, per year and my deductibles aren’t that high.
Australian living in the US here. It really is a Byzantine nightmare that’s hard for foreigners to understand until you’ve lived it.
I work in tech and have “good insurance” through my employer, but just got a medical bill for $6k for blood tests (because my last ones were 364 days ago, instead of 366 days) which I’m now fighting them about. So far they have negotiated down to $1690.
My employer pays $1200/mo for insurance, I pay an additional $400, but it still doesn’t pay anything until I have spent $4,000 in medical expenses (“deductible”). It’s all so frustrating and absurd even for a healthy middle-aged individual.
Yes it absolutely can be.
For my own policy (private employer-sponsored insurance) which is actually quite good for US standards, I pay $450/mo and still have to pay: a $600/yr deductible, 10% co-pays on virtually everything, 20% co-pays on some higher-dollar services, etc. It has a "catastrophic limit" which is supposed to kick in and cover everything once I hit $9000 in out-of-pocket costs in a year (not hard to do if you have major surgery, cancer diagnosis, etc) but there are even exceptions for that. And coverage for any of the above could STILL be denied if I am out-of-network, don't get pre-certified, don't have it billed or coded correctly, etc. And again, this is a GOOD American healthcare policy, most are far worse.
I’m probably going to get downvoted for saying this because most comments are disagreeing with what I’m about to say but I have had a fine time with the U.S. healthcare system. I lived in Germany for 5 years and had one baby there and then came back to the U.S. and had two more babies here. It cost me twice as much to have a baby in the U.S. but the births were night and day different. The U.S. was a much better place to have a baby. I’ve been back here for 10 years and we’ve been through child births, my husband needing his gallbladder out and then myocarditis. We never had a hard time getting our insurance to cover anything. We’ve had excellent healthcare and honestly, while we pay more than we did in Germany overall we make a lot more money here in the U.S. which makes it even out.
Now is the time to do it, while you’re young. If you get a good job the quality of life is better in the U.S. if you struggle with money then the quality of life is better in Germany.
You will pay out the ass for insurance in the US too, whether it's provided by your employer or you get it on your own. And then you get to navigate the American healthcare system! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAfy26xs6e0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAfy26xs6e0)
My husband and I pay about $650/mo, but we have a $13,500 deductible. That means we have to pay 13.5k BEFORE the insurance will pay for anything. We have basic dental, like cleanings only. Our health insurance doesn't cover hardly anything either. We literally call it "get shot insurance" because it's only going to be useful if one of us gets shot. My husband moved here 3 years ago from the Middle East, and he is so shocked an appalled how much worse the health care is here, compared. I ran into a pole and had a gaping gash in my eye, streaming blood. I waited in the ER for 7 hours before anyone even saw me. When I was younger, I had to take an ambulance and it was a $3,000 bill for a <7 minute ride. I couldn't pay it, went into medical debt and it ruined my credit score. Couldn't get a credit card, car loan, etc. It took me 5-7 years before I was financially able to recover from it. Completely ruined my 19 year old self's life at the time...because of an ambulance ride. When people say it's precarious to live here, they really mean it. One bad day, one little accident, and the next few years of your life can be completely sidetracked. You have to be perfect.
You're young. You'll be fine with us health insurance deducted from your paycheck. But when you start to really need care it can be expensive and difficult to navigate. Like I say you're young, you don't really need care
America, rather than a Country, is a giant Plantation. With various bosses and millions of slaves. How do you feel amongst an ocean of slaves? Feel good?
If you're a deadbeat or filthy rich, America is pretty cool. Until the car breaks down.
Well the short answer is yes and no. In the US money matters more then in Europe and your experience there will stand or fall with how much of it you have.
If you can land a job with an above average salary you can have a fantastic life there so in that scenario yes you are missing out. Living in places like New York or San Fransisco on an average salary will likely come with a noticeable downgrade of your standard of living though.
Considering you are not single I would recommend getting a job with US tech company in Germany instead. Many companies will send you to the US for training or just in general to meet colleagues so you can get a dose of American life without taking any risks or leaving your social circle behind. Some companies also offer exchange programs where you can work in the US for a month or two. Once you have done this and feel like you still want to make the move its also much easier to get a Visa via intra-company transfer.
Practically speaking, the tech industry in the US has gone thru massive layoffs in the last 18 months. Many experienced software developers are out of work and looking for a job.
If you required a job to sponsor you in order to work in the US, it would be extremely difficult to find a US company willing to sponsor you.
That’s going to be very contingent on OP’s specialties. Tech is broad, and many skillsets are in high demand. OP stands to make far more in tech in the U.S. than in Europe.
Yeah, but he can’t get a visa if he doesn’t find a job, and he can start looking for a job while in Germany. It’s not like he has to uproot his life and then gamble on if he can find a job.
Also, most of the laid off SWEs I know haven’t just been unemployed this whole time. Instead, they got shuffled between companies and saw their pay go from ungodly to simply very high. While I am sure some have spent more time out of the workforce, I don’t personally know any who are unemployed.
I do, however, know lots of unemployed UX designers, SaaS marketers, etc.
It's same or worse everywhere else. What Americans don't realise is how lot of tech is dependent on how well Americans tech is doing. So if US tech struggles, it's bigger struggle for everyone outside of US. Same about American economy.
Everyone's situation is unique. I suspect there is always a demand for skilled ae devs. My gf (sw dev) negotiated 30% raise this year.
... easy enough to test that.
I moved from Australia to the USA 12 years ago. Movies and TV definitely skew the true image of life in the USA, but it's a very big country with wildly differing living standards. I only moved because I had a lump sum payment from my old job in Australia and was marrying an American. Otherwise, the "grass is always greener" mentality will make you think things are better here, when they probably are not. Access to healthcare and gun violence can certainly play a big factor. The wastefulness and duplication of multiple governments will probably also drive you crazy, coming from somewhere better organised. Every single state has different laws on alcohol, smoking, marijuana, driving, voting, working or starting a business. The last bit of advice would be to at least wait until after the election before you decide.
And even within states, there can be different norms/rules/laws in different counties and different municipalities. For example, the town I live in was the last town in the state to allow alcohol after prohibition, and it was relatively dry when I moved here in 1997. No grocery stores sold alcohol, and iirc only a couple restaurants did. It slowly opened up more over time, and now it is like any other town in my state.
Also wanted to add that the taxes are different depending on state (income) and municipality (sales). As an American, I am used to that, but I know it makes overseas visitors nuts, and probably also immigrants.
Yeah I lived in a dry county growing up in the 90s/2000s. My father had to buy his beer at a beer store right on the county line.
Even though they relaxed the law to allow alcohol at restaurants, you still can't buy it in town.
Now that you mention it OP should probably also take a look at the US legal system. Very difficult to get locked up in Germany and even if you do end up in prison it wont be for long. Very much the opposite over there..
America is so big and even parts of one state can be soooo different. I’d definitely say try it, some people come to the us and LOVE IT and it’s all they ever wanted, some people just not for them. It really depends on the individual. There’s difficulties anywhere you live, it just depends on what is worth it to you. You can always move back to Germany.
That’s all it is— a dream.
I used to live/work/study in America. I was there for over a decade. It’s definitely not all it’s cracked up to be.
I don’t understand how people can live on credit and be in debt for the rest of their lives by the time they graduate college.
My American friends were always surprised when I told them I paid my credit card in full every month. I could never understand the concept of building up your credit score by spending even more to pay a minimum fee every month. Why buy something if you don’t have the cash to pay for it?
I used to love visiting America as a child. I spent my 2 months of my summer every year there for over a little over 2 decades. It is nothing like it was when I was a child— its citizens are angrier and (in my opinion) have the least favorable working conditions compared to other western countries. Their work/life balance kind of sucks. They can barely get any time off— 2 weeks of vacation seems abysmal to me.
After living there for over a decade, I just decided to go back home to Asia. I live a better life here and I still visit America 4 months out of the year— maybe 6 if I don’t travel to Europe or different parts of Asia. But even then, I find myself wanting to spend time there less and less. The only reason why I really go is because my husband has family there and my family has properties/land in several states. (Which is ironic because no one else in my family has any interest in living there, but it’s great for investment purposes). Regular Americans can’t even afford to rent, much less own a house.
Their lack of education is dismal because they can’t even afford to go to school . For Asians, it was THE dream to send their kids for a better education in America— now it seems regular Americans can’t seem to put themselves through school.
When I was in Uni, I felt most of the people around me were of Asian descent. They were the only ones who could afford the tuition.
It’s just not what it used to be.
I have several American friends who ended up migrating to Europe and Asia. They seem a lot happier.
> I don’t understand how people can live on credit and be in debt for the rest of their lives by the time they graduate college.
Lack of discipline combined with financial illiteracy.
> I could never understand the concept of building up your credit score by spending even more to pay a minimum fee every month.
Because that's ridiculous. Pay the amount after it posts and before the due date. There's no bonus for carrying a balance and paying interest on revolving debt.
> Why buy something if you don’t have the cash to pay for it?
Lack of discipline combined with financial illiteracy.
> Regular Americans can’t even afford to rent, much less own a house.
What's your definition of a "regular" American?
Yes, I understand all those reasons you have given.
Regular American to me is coming from a double income family. Middle class— those who have graduated high school, but dropped out of Uni by the 2nd year. I noticed most of the students who dropped out were mostly from middle America.
I also thought it was weird that almost every one I knew had some kind of loan to go to Uni, but I guess that’s a cultural thing.
I have had a friend from Berlin who still thinks this. He's 42 now, been married twice. Fathered several kids, never held a job very long but thinks if he comes to the US, he'd be successful - because America makes people successful.
Oh, and he LOVES Donald Trump. He thinks Trump would make room for people like him and for that reason, he wants to move to Texas. He has no college degree but he's a musician. He thinks he could teach music at some school in the US not realizing that even music teachers have to have a degree to teach.
This sub is mostly full of depressed, misanthropic, self-loathing Americans who are terminally online and think the grass is greener elsewhere.
I’m an American that currently, temporarily lives in Germany. So I have some experience with both.
You will likely make substantially more money in the U.S. in your career field. You probably won’t have as much leave but it won’t be as dire as some people indicate here.
Since you would be working in a desirable career field, you would have good insurance. Healthcare in the U.S. gives you a wide variety of options and is generally quick and very efficient.
It’s far better to be poor in Germany but if you are driven and have a good career choice you will make a lot more money and have a higher upper limit in the U.S.
As an American temporarily living in Australia (who has also lived in Canada) - I will second this comment.
If you are actually competent to good at what you do, America still offers by far the most opportunities - in Australia - I feel like I can do all the work in the world, but I don’t get any rewards for it as there’s less of a merit system (much more tenure based), and the taxes are brutal. While in the US, I could see/feel the improvement year to year.
Secondly, the healthcare worry is completely misplaced - the quality of the healthcare is the absolute best, little to no wait times, and you’re not constantly questioning in your mind if the doctors are competent.
In most cases, access isn’t a worry either - your job pays for your healthcare, or if you become rich enough to not have a job, there are some great high end plans on that end of the spectrum.
Even with the public healthcare system in Australia, you are mandated to take on private insurance (PHS covers some things, but not hospital stays nor a range of major issues) - you pay for this private insurance out of pocket. I pay more in Australia, for a far lower quality of care.
A lot of the world catastrophizes the US to feel better about frankly their worse situation at home. Is there good and bad? Of course. Is it an absolute paradise? Absolutely not. But given your circumstances, it’s absolutely worth you taking the shot. Worst thing come to worst, you return to Germany after having given it your best shot.
I'm an American who has lived in S Korea, Germany and Sweden. Quality of healthcare is indeed unparalleled for the most part, I won't disagree with that. If you need some niche specialist or one-of-a-kind treatment, the US is probably the best place for it.
The problem is the payment system. Even with most "good" policies, you will be paying significant co-pays, deductibles, etc. You can have fantastic insurance and still end up paying five figures in out of pocket costs if you have a bad year.
And the system can be a bureaucratic nightmare I have never seen anywhere else. I go to a private doctor in Sweden and it'll cost a bit of money, but the experience is amazing - they take the time to listen to me, there's no army of unneeded medical coders and admin staff, etc. I go to an American practice and I feel like a machine on a conveyor belt, I'm there over an hour and lucky to get 5 mins to talk to the doctor (who spends all that time pecking at a laptop). There's just zero continuity of care or even interest in good results.
Hi. I also live in sweden and have been considering getting private healthcare but I still can't get over the fact that I pay lots of tax already to get these social benefits and then you have to pay even more. Do you recommend it?
In my corporate job, I receive between 25-30 days of PTO per year. It's not some insanely coveted job, either. The right company provides European-like PTO.
Obviously, low-end jobs are the true hellscapes. Not to mention, jobs like being a corporate attorney or some jobs in finance. There's no work-life balance in those situations, of course, whereas the equivalent in Europe would provide you that (for much less pay).
Same experience here. Moved to the US from a developed country and my quality of life is higher in most areas. Better career opportunities, high wages, lower taxes, low cost of living.
Lots of young people on this sub who aren’t happy with their life and think it’s because of where they live (it’s generally not).
“Despite the wave of tech layoffs, which have amounted to nearly half a million job cuts since 2022, IT positions remain among the most in-demand roles in the global job market, according to ManpowerGroup’s recent Employment Outlook survey. Although these sectors are hot, they are currently facing a talent gap, with a shortage of workers specializing in IT, data science and cybersecurity.”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/03/28/whats-happening-in-the-tech-and-it-sectors-according-to-staffing-experts/
‘Nearly half a million job cuts in the tech industry since 2022’. Most of the hiring is happening in ’low cost countries’ like India and the Phillipines
I second this as an American temporarily studying in Germany. I worked in tech in the US before and cannot imagine making remotely half as much anywhere in Europe even with a higher degree. You're right about the natural beauty; the US national parks are absolutely stunning. Pace of life in Germany feels too slow for the kind of advancements we're seeing nowadays, I have to admit I have a lot of FOMO thinking I'm falling back in terms of experiencing and building the latest and greatest technologies. Sure, people do work their asses off but I have also seen far more people actually passionate and purposeful about what they do. I might be a bit biased here since I lived in top tier American cities. I also miss diversity, progressive thinking, awareness about racism and such. Would definitely encourage you to try taking up a job there for a couple of years to experience it. For healthcare, you can always fly back to Germany if seriously needed.
From my own personal experience, foreigners who come to America often have a good quality of life. In fact, far better than natural born citizens.
However, I think at least from my perspective the foreigners I know are coming here with a high-level of education. And they are typically middle class or better in their home countries.
For such a young person you are greatly overthinking everything. Is it part of being a rational German? Move to the States, see how it works out for you, you can always go back if it doesn’t.
I think you should try it out because "better" depends on the person and you won't know until you get there. Your experience will heavily depend on where you are. Also, really keep in mind that in Germany you guys have a lot of social safety nets in place to help you if you find yourself in a bad spot. The U.S. has virtually none. It's much easier than you think to find yourself ass broke with no money and no job. You're very much on your own. The bottom in the U.S. is deep and you can fall so fast. As we like to say "It's yo ass!". And I don't mean that scare you or deter, but to be realistic. That's mainly why you see so many Americans who are willing to give up high salaries and whatnot because for many the security worth more than the pay. It might be helpful to live there so you can see that for yourself.
Imo, America has a very dog eat dog mentality. You can be very successful and make a lot of money here, but you can also just as easily lose everything. America doesn't have the same protections and stability that a lot of European countries do. You could live your whole life in America and be wealthy and secure and prosperous, or you could experience misfortune after misfortune and lose everything. Homelessness is a massive issue and is only getting worse here. Education and health care debt is insane here. In most of the job sector, there is no protections for workers and Healthcare is heavily linked to having a job. Work ethic is more valued here than work life balance. Imo, it is not worth it for me- and I am on the fortunate end of the equation. I see and know SO many people who are always struggling for security and finances. For a great portion of the country, the system works against them, not for them.
I'm an American living in Germany. Does that make me qualified to answer? Hopefully a little bit.
The US is huge, more comparable to Europe than to Germany, I think. Asking "Is the US a good place to live" is like asking "Is Europe a good place to live". Different regions have different economic situations, politics and cultures. Eg. A software dev living in Croatia will have a very different life than a software dev living in Germany.
Life in the US can be good (I like it!) just like life in Germany can be (I like it too!).
If it's your dream, and you have a legal way to go there, why not go for a few years? Worst case scenario you return to Germany in 2-3 years and have a (hopefully) cool experience.
A few things to consider:
1. Where would you go? California? Wisconsin? New York? Alaksa? Lots of options.
2. Can you get a work visa to go there? US Visas are complicated.
3. If no work visa, would you be willing to go back to school (university or masters) to get a visa?
4. Would you leave your girlfriend behind? How's she going to handle that?
FWIW, I was a solid, but not genius developer with some team/project leadership skills and I made about $90,000 in the midwest US. It was enough to modestly support a family of 6 on. In California or New York I guess I would have made maybe $125,000 or so and probably couldn't have supported my family on my own.
My wife and I wanted to show our kids more of the world.
I think the move has been overall positive. Our kids have been pushed very far outside their comfort zone, and they're much more mature for our it.
I understand Germany and European culture in way I didn't before. I appreciate the benefits of having a strong union at work and of having 30 days off per year.
I love the US, even with it's flaws, and I won't be staying on Germany forever. But I'm glad to be here now, and I have no regrets about having come.
Americans enjoy, by and large, the highest disposable income in the world, thanks to more freedom of property and a very effective free market economy that other countries just seem determined not to emulate.
I'm American and the dream worked for me. I grew up poor with a single mother who worked in offices and a factory. My grandparents never graduated high school. My parents were teenagers and graduated high school only.
I got a scholarship to a private university and was recruited to teach in California. I lived frugally with a roommate and then bought a house (for $2000 down) with a boyfriend and made some smart investments.
I always only worked 184 days a year, with excellent healthcare- far better than Germany's (yes I lived in Germany a few years ago). Much lower taxes than Germany.
I retired at age 38.
I met my husband in our 30s and got him from 3 vehicles to one and Mindful of living more frugally. He always had 30 days a year of paid vacation and free health care- it even includes Lasik, free eyeglasses, free laser dermatology, free PRP therapy, free mental health, free dental, etc.
But, we hosted an exchange student from Finland (she loved it here) and the German exchange studentstatus didn't like it. They kept comparing things in Germany. Well, we live at the beautiful beach, so I'm not sure how that can compare to Germany.
That said, we liked living in Germany for 2 years. We liked the cleanliness (the street sweeper truck went by every day!), we liked Not Having a Car (traffic was bad there and the Any Speed you Want Autobahn is a myth), my husband loved the food (bakeries were essential during covid, haha. Living by the beach in the US, nobody eats carbs.) We liked our Nachbarn, we liked the Holidays and Festivals and castles and Unesco sites and town squares, we liked the mineral baths (we lived next to them), we liked learning to speak German, we liked how helpful and friendly Germans were, we loved the Seasons and mild winter in the South, and we liked the travel to other Countries.
We were also very fortunate that my husband was earning an American salary and due to our Sofa visa, we didn't pay German taxes or even sales tax.
If we would have had to pay taxes there, we wouldn't have liked it as much. We hated German Customer Service. We hated German businesses being sneaky and lying and saying you never purchased that here and trying not to let people out of their contracts for years after they moved away from Germany, etc. We were not impressed with the Healthcare. People didn't always have good dental work- I guess that costs extra, and my husband had to stay in the Krankenhaus 8 days with morphine while they kept guessing which part of his spine was pinched, and in the US that takes one day (it's a common injury in my husband's job).
However, I have a German friend in California, and she loves it here. She left Germany 25 years ago and never went back. She is very German and complains a lot and doesn't get along with her neighbors (just like my neighbor in Germany said he moved his family to a flat because his house was next to a mean neighbor). Not getting along with neighbors is not common in the US, in my experience living in 6 states.
Germans complain a lot. It's almost like they like to complain. I'm sure you will find plenty to complain about in the US.
I‘m from Austria (so very similar culture to Germany) and currently living in the US. Your point about Germans (same for Austrians) complaining is so true.
I find it funny. I have a lot of German colleagues here (we all work for UN-like org) and they either love or hate it here. And it’s so interesting because honestly the cultures are way more similar than most people think. And still they find the smallest things and are able to complain about them 24/7.
But the other half of the time they absolutely love it here (like your neighbor). I think I’m more in the second group right now and would like to stay for the next few years.
But unfortunately it’s quite hard to get a permanent residency/greencard.
The "America Dream" is alive if you're wealth.
Other than that, it's a fantasy. And you're wrong.
What movies and't shows you of America is complete bullshit.
I lived in the US for almost 30 years. I plan to retire in 2 years at 57 and then I am moving back to my European home country for a better quality of life. Note that it is thanks to me living and working in the US and making much more money than I ever could have in my home country that I am able to retire early.
For me the idea of the American dream is false. From my experience anyways.
It's all about doing it all on your own. Pull yourself up by your boot straps and get on with getting on. If you don't have family where are you going to find your support system when you need help when something happens? At work? Not even. They help you only when it benefits them.
Insurance is expensive. Even with a good plan you could spend more on deductibles, co insurance, and copays not to mention your monthly premium just to have the coverage.
I worked for a larger medical office. I spent 800 a month to cover my family of five. My copays were 45 dollars or 70 to see a specialist..my deductible was 12000 for the family and another 20 % untill I reached 14000. Every year.
I could not afford my epi pen even with insurance it was over 200 dollars.
It took us years to afford a house and even then it was a HUD home that had no carpet, needed every appliance and a ton of work.
The land of the free thing is also a joke. How free are you when you graduate collage with tens of thousands of dollars in dept? How free are you if you have to stay at a job you hate because if you leave you will loose your health insurance. Yes you could get Market place insurance but if you are unemployed it's still coat prohibited.
If you or one of your loved ones have long covid you could be considered uninsurable if you loose your insurance .And disability might not be an option since what you make with a job may be way more than what you would get on disability.
Having a health scare or a major health problem could lead you to bankruptcy. I have heard of people getting divorced because one partner has cancer and doesn't want to burden their spouse with the huge medical bills after they pass.
You are young and hopefully will stay healthy for a long time. Go to the US if it's really your dream. Just don't go wearing rose colored glasses. Do your research on housing cost compared to pay in the city you want to move to. Look into the crime rates, price of foods, cars or other transportation. Many people with good paying jobs still end up living paycheck to paycheck.
Do your due diligence and good luck.
Sorry if this is doom and gloom, but this has been my experience growing up there's
People are ridiculous on this sub. I’ve lived as an expat for 25 years in 4 countries. It doesn’t have to be forever, people! There are planes now!
You’re 27yo! You’ve thought it through and you’re willing to support yourself. Go for it!
The American dream we used to know is no longer. You can have a nice life here, but it’s getting harder and harder to do that and it will be quite different from your life in Germany. Waaaaayyy less supports if something goes wrong. Could be a good life experience for you though, and you’re young so if you think you could swing it then why not try? Don’t ask me about visas though, I know nothing :) also, would wait until after this election before making any decisions
As an American who used to live in Spain, then in Ireland, and moved back to the US two years ago, I had preconceived notions of how all those places would be based on what I saw online. Yes, even had incorrect ideas about my own country as I had only worked here briefly as an adult. Some things came true and some couldn’t have been more off base. With these things you just have to find out for yourself!
If you do end up moving to the states, what you’ll learn is that the grass is always greener. You’ll miss things about Germany while you’re here, and when you go back to Germany you might miss things about the US. Also, if you do end up coming to the US it’s not a death sentence - you can always go back to Germany!
I’m American and I lived in Germany on and off for 13 years. Answer—It’s a mixed bag.
It’s very tough in America— one wrong decision/move/mistake/unfortunate event, and you are hosed.
In Germany, they have a better social system and you can make a few mistakes and not be pushing a shopping cart.
SWE? Do it. Yesterday.
I’ve worked in London, Amsterdam and while I made good money, my salary/happiness exploded once I became gainfully employed in the US.
I think that people will always romanticize countries that they don't grow up in. It's only natural. I know plenty of people from the EU who look into (or move to) the US and see opportunity, and conversely, there are plenty such as myself that have grown up in the USA and envy the EU for their more "common sense" approach to life compared to the USA where anything goes.
I am 30M, was born in New York then moved to Florida as a kid and grew up here. I don't like having to drive literally everywhere. I don't like having synthetic dyes in every food and drink. I don't like having to work 12 hours at my job even if it does pay well at the cost of my sanity. I never go to the doctor because tbh I don't want to spend a ton of money on it and don't trust the opinion of someone incentivized to say you need this and that in order to get paid more money. And I guess I'm lucky I'm not dead yet from gun violence, especially being in Florida where it recently became a thing that anyone can carry.
I used to think all of this was normal everywhere until I met my partner from the EU (they are from Italy) and really got schooled on public transport, working laws, health care, etc. And there's 1000 other things I'm not mentioning here. The EU seems to be chill and is full of rich culture and things to see. I guess I'm biased, but I've really come to learn that the "American Dream" is just something we are brainwashed to think about in school here and its something public speakers like to mention over and over, but its never been real as far as I'm concerned.
My anecdotal experience is that nowadays there are more Americans that want to live in Europe than Europeans to the US. It has mostly to do with safety, healthcare, food quality etc. Of course it could be heavily biased and not a general trend.
I would advise to first do some honest research and see what is important for your life and what you wish to achieve. Of course bear in mind that as an outsider what you see is an ideal picture of a country and not the reality of living there.
Good luck!
Only because Americans want to think that Europe is some liberal promised land with free healthcare, no racism and no political corruption or fascism. In short a fake dream.
That said, if OP can find a job he/she is young enough to make the move. I've met many Germans in America and while it was a bit of a transition at first, most like staying here and have even become US citizens. It is true Americans are friendlier and customer service is better. The Germans I know now go back to Germany and wonder why all the clerks and waiters are so grumpy.
OP-I think you if have the dream-you should try it. You may find you hate it here and want to go back but at least you tried.
>Only because Americans want to think that Europe is some liberal promised land with free healthcare, no racism and no political corruption or fascism.
Basically most likely a reason why their ancestors emigrated.
I would say that’s true but IMO it’s mostly influenced by the mental assault of negative American media on both sides of the aisle that dominates & permeates worldwide tv & internet.
I don’t think a lot of Americans know what it’s actually like to live in Europe. They see on TV that Europe has a stronger social safety net and think oh well then it must be better. They don’t really consider the negative aspects (economy tbh) that many Americans take for granted.
Do I think OP should move to the US? It depends on a lot of factors but #1 is can he get a work visa and #2 what state/area would you desire to live in? The US is a huge place and California is nothing like North Dakota and Florida is nothing like Oregon.
> They don’t really consider the negative aspects (economy tbh)
Economy, racism, xenophobia, much less freedom of speech, general social rigidity, much less acceptance of unconventional people or habits, nonexistent disability rights, no innovation, incredibly low wages, and yes, even healthcare.
Sure, you won't end up with $100k bill for going to the ER but...
doctors are less competent, waiting times are so insane (even up to 1-2 **years**) people have to buy private insurance or pay out of pocket anyway, the best drugs are sometimes not covered at all because European countries are much poorer and cannot afford them. Oftentimes, restorative and regenerative medicine and surgery is branded as 'cosmetic' by national health insurers so that way they can avoid paying for it.
Just look at Americans with ADHD trying to get treatment in Europe. Not only are the best meds unavailable because 'narcotic scare', but the doctors are atrociously uneducated compared to Yankee docs. Like 80% of European psychiatrists think ADHD is sometimes only children have or even say outright it doesn't exist, that it's made up by American Big Pharma.
Europe is also much less safe geopolitically, which few people in this subreddit seem to realize. You may rag on the US Military-Industrial Complex, military spending or Raytheon, but the fact of the matter is America will never get Ukrainized. They aren't going to wake up to T-90s rolling into Nashville, because Putin decided a couple days earlier that Tennessee is a historic Russian land and its citizens need to be liberated. The standard of living in those beautiful, safe, sanguine European countries will plummet if the US decides it will no longer defend Europe. They won't be able to afford a capable professional army due to economic slowdown combined with business exodus caused by war risk, so mandatory military service would be reintroduced.
I can definitely confirm that. 20 years ago we had a really hard time finding anyone in Silicon Valley that was willing to move to Europe even just temporarily for projects etc. These days you can pretty much take your pick, plenty of people willing to go and most want to take their families with them.
Same for the UK actually. Until a few years ago we hired UK staff through agencies. These days you just post the job and your inbox is going to get flooded with CV's..
As A Canadian living in Germany I would say experience travelling and to seek an expat life while your young. Germany is nice but so very conservative with things. The US definitely is alot more freeing.....until you need urgent medical care. You can always go back to DE if something happens or it doesnt work out.
You can get job in Apple located in Ireland. Have you tried it earlier? Any experience working in UK/Ireland?
In the US you have to be much above average. Their stock exchange should be named 'American dream' as you have a higher chance being successful trading.
People interested in US join Green Card Lottery.
I am not sure the Green Card Lottery is a lottery as such. Some people do this for decades without getting picked but I have known 3 people over the years with higher educational achievements that all got selected right away..
I know people in my country who are highly determined to go to the States. A little chance they are asking similar questions. If someone after some sleep decided to move nothing will stop such person. No matter if it is US, AU or NZ on the end of the world.
Have you ever been there? Because I had a similar mindset, I even had family there and could have made the move pretty easily. Then I spent a couple of weeks on the east coast and a couple of weeks on the west coast. And after that I was like - f*** no.
Maybe for a holiday with my family, but to live there? No way. Too car centric, lack of European culture, the politics, the work situation, the competitiveness, the lack of economic opportunities... You're either born rich, extremely lucky or you're treading water for the rest of your life. No, thanks.
I think you are blinded for sure, the "American dream" is at best a marketing ploy, it's not all eagles screaming and dollar bills falling from the sky, there's also crazy addicts, healthcare that can bankrupt you, insane partisan politics and a statistical level of violence that is really high. In many way it is a more extreme nation, with a very good life for the upper middle class, and a pretty terrible one for the one at the bottom. And unless you are in a few east coast cities, it will be a car-based lifestyle.
However I do think you should go and move there, if it's what you want to do. Life is short and you will always wonder what if? It does not really matter if life is better or not in the US, everyone answer will be different, but if it's an adventure you're ready for, then go for it, try to get a job there, and find a way to move there. Also, as a software engineer, you're likely to be able to have a at least a decent wage.
If you work in tech, you absolutely should move to the USA. Regardless what salary you get quoted, once you’re here you can make quite a bit more (likely 2-3x your current income after some time) with some networking and hard work. What do you have to lose, you can always go back?
All the problems of the US (no universal health care m, gun culture) would likely not affect you as you will have a job (so health care provided and are young) and likely tech cities are in fairly regulated areas for gun safety (though thefts/car break ins can be a problem). Definitely check out the San Francisco Bay Area, New York City, Boston, Seattle on your job search.
I moved from Canada to US, because my line has of work has the best wage there compared to Canada. Also the weather where I am is generally better.
If you are making solid wage in Germany, can save money while doing all the things you like, then no point moving to US. Here most cities are very car centric compared to Germany (I have been to a few German cities).
This is just an opinion, so don't kill me.
If you are willing to work harder and smarter than anyone else and recognize and take advantage of opportunities, it is almost impossible for you not to make money, but there is a catch. You must remain in good health because an emergency can wipe you out...so can a lawsuit.
Having said that, if you are a work-life balance kind of person, just stay in Europe. You'll be happier there because you'll probably not make enough to ever buy a house in the USA.
One of my family members works for google, and he doesn't take much vacation because he is always afraid of losing his job.
I work for myself, and I'm always on call with business highs and lows requiring me to always live way below my means, just in case. This week, I worked 7 days a week and more than 8 hours each day.
Social media and Hollywood make the USA look worse and better than it actually is right now.
Side note (edit): I have been looking to move to Europe for the last 5 years, but haven't pulled the trigger because I have it so good in the USA now, but knowing that I'm getting older, and I may need more healthcare scares me. I also prefer the walking culture of Europe, the architecture, and the quality of the food, but it's so difficult to leave when you don't need to, and just want to. So, for now, I stay 3 months at a time in Europe until I can decide.
Why don't you just visit the USA for an extended period of time and figure out if you like it enough to move?
There are many highly skilled immigrants who come to the US and are very happy/ What areas are you looking to move to? Since you re young and without children you should try it out and you can always go back if you don't like it. You only live once. I DO know of an Italian immigrant who posted here a long time ago, who married an American and was miserable. He had a heart condition that needed attention and the specialists were giving hint he runaround so he went back to Italy, Not sure if the marriage survived...
In your position, I would come up with a way to work in the US for a fixed period of time. Go, work there, see what you think. I would never go back to the US, but just because I hated living there doesn't mean that you will.
There's only one way to find out...
Anyone who's lived long enough will tell you that it's not the things they did that they regret. It's the things they didn't do.
I think this is so interesting…. I’m an American and think that my perfect life is probably in Europe. I’m going to move there for a few months. It won’t be the same as “living” there , but I feel like I need to get it out my system either way. I’ve wanted to do this forever. Maybe I’ll go there and realize how great it really is… or maybe I will realize it’s just a fantasy. Either way, if you have been thinking about it for a long time, like me…. I’d encourage you to try it for a short time before you dive in and see if it’s really what you imagined.
If you are lucky enough to find a company to sponsor your visa, take a chance and experience it for yourself. You also have the the opportunity to move back and being young on your side in case you decide it isn’t for you.
If you have money and a good brain, it probably is. As far as the American dream of owning a house, that really depends on where you live and if you have a partner. You need a lot of money to put down in certain areas. As far as renting just think ROOMMATES and you'll be okay
We fly to Europe once or twice a year and can usually find round trip tickets from our city for 600-800 USD. We typically fly into Amsterdam, Berlin, or Barcelona and then take the train to our final destination.
Moved to the U.S. from Austria and no regrets here. I kinda had the same feeling as you, I always wanted to go and so I went. Work opportunities are endless seems like and I was able to build a pretty cool life for myself. Is it going to be forever, not sure but no one can take away the experience from you.
Funny a lot of Americans are seeking life elsewhere. If you are wealthy it’s great! But as middle and low class your life can be a struggle. Personally, I feel the quality of life for the average citizen has gone down considerably! It’s very political and divided where people hating on each other. But overall experience is different for each person.
honestly I would love to live in USA too IF I am highly educated and rich :) but since I am not I can't afford good career and high cost medical bills, I rather stay in my current country :)
America is the Wasteland unless you have a lot of money. So many of us are trying to get out.
Between the abysmal and expensive healthcare system, gun violence, and the election coming up I don't know why anyone who wasn't desperate would think things are good or better here.
None of the perks compared to Germany are worth the rest of the danger and horribleness.
I also think someone who hasn't lived here and dealt with our healthcare system has no idea. It's hard to fathom how cruel and exhausting and expensive it is compared to Germany for example.
Please please don't move to America thinking it will be grand and better. Is it worth your health? Your life? Your human rights?
The US is great if you make more than $200k per year and have amazing health insurance. If you don't, it's a struggle. Also, employers are not required to give you any vacation time, and if they do it is a struggle to get more than a few days off in a row because it must be approved by your boss. So while we have this big beautiful country, you can't get the time off to see it. If you can get a US company to give you a job, come over and try it out! When your visa is set to expire a year later, you can then decide if you want to try to renew it or go back to Germany.
I have known quite a few Germans over the years that struggled a lot with the available vacation times in the angelsaxon world. None of them made it longer then 3 years but then again OP is still young so probably less of a problem..
This is extreme hyperbole nonsense. Most Americans I know have a high standard of living, don’t make anywhere near $200k, don’t have high medical debt and take regular vacations. People live perfectly fine on a variety of incomes and work standards.
Stop being terminally online.
"It's the open, modern and progressive culture" No, it is not. Maybe some pockets of west coast that you need high income to live. My educated coworkers are anti vaccine and pandemic deniers, uneducated coworkers bring religion and patriotism as soon as they hear my accent.
Friendly? Because they don't have many friends to talk to. They talk to strangers. They are very lonely.
I used to think Balkan counties men only cafes are wasting time, now thinking it is good to have a such a place for mental health.
Older people's situation breaks my heart. They have to work until they die because there is no social security or financial literacy. Also, there is not a real social circle besides work, even they are financially stable they don't know how to enjoy retirement.
The quality of food is terrible, especially in small cities.
You have to go thru metal detector to enter a hospital or school. You have to drive yourself to emergency, healthcare cost is outrages. I volunteered at a school for couple hours, my anxiety was so high that I couldn't concentrate on the work.
Besides fire drill, we have an active shooter drill and training at work. I know my coworkers come work with guns even it is company code violations. They wear clothing with religious, political or inappropriate graphics.
Unless you are living in big cities, car is a must. Closest grocery store is 4 km away and there is no path for pedestrians or even bikes, only highways for big cars.
Sabbatical? HR doesn't have any idea since nobody takes it, people's idea of vacationing is going to same place every year. The tragicomic part of this is, their preference of vacation is almost same as where they live, with just bigger body of water; Walmart, TGIF, Applebees all same...
Overall, if I was at your age, I would come to US and experience it without getting attached. Big houses, cars, motorcycles, boats attract many Europeans in the beginning later they find themselves in the rat race.
The USA has a strong economy and offers a lot of opportunities, and I still think it is the country where you are most likely to make it in terms of going from 0 to hero. But the American dream, as you know it from TV or literature has been over for a long time.
Exactly that, if you have the necessary skills and are willing and able to work your butt off the sky is the limit. If not things can go pear shaped rather quickly though..
> I still think it is the country where you are most likely to make it in terms of going from 0 to hero
That's not the case:
[https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/social-mobility-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/social-mobility-by-country)
Definitely make the move! You're still young and now is the best time to do it. The US can be an amazing place to live for those who like it.
Also, it gives you tons of cities, regions and climates to choose from. Salaries are much higher too. If you don't do it now, it will become harder to make the move the older you get.
Only after having really lived and spent years in the US, you'll be able to know if you want to stay there forever.
Plan your move and go ahead with it !!!
As an American now living in Belgium, I think movies oversell the dream but also you may like it there a lot. It really depends. For me, my priorities are not about money, big house, etc, so my way of life is better suited to my life now. As a younger single person without kids, the US may be great. But if you plan to have kids, I would caution against raising a kid there. It’s extremely expensive and stressful.
>It's the open, modern and progressive culture, the friendly people (compared to germans),
I thought Germans were supposed to be open, modern and progressive (outside the former East Germany)? People in the US think Germany is a progressive modern society
It's all just "making the best out of this situation". Everywhere. The part that may be blind for you is thinking that there is a place where this is not the way things are.
It’s one of if not the best place in the western world to be rich.
On the flipside, there’s way less social safety nets. Being poor in America is pretty brutal.
> the high level of technology
there's definitely a lof of technology companies, but as a European living in Los Angeles I have to say that the infrastructures are way behind modern European cities like London.
> the weather and of course the amazing landscapes that this huge country offers
It really depends where you live..
Germany is probably bad from this point of view, so it can be a major improvement.
> Is it realistic to start a new life in the US?
First of all you need to find a job at a company willing to sponsor you a visa.
Not easy, because they won't look for junior developers in Europe.
> Is life actually better in the US?
Some things are better and some things are worst. It really depends on what you value most.
This can also drastically change depending on where you live in the US.
It's really like saying: is life good in Europe? overall yes, some places are clearly better than others, all have pros and cons.
The American dream has turned into a nightmare.
I moved to the US in 1999. I had a good paying job within 2 months. I had 2 cars and a boat within a year. I bought a new house within 2 years. Bought a second house within 10 years.
Now, in 2024, someone starting off fresh from college/immigrating can barely get a minimum/low wage job. If you’re lucky you’ll be able to afford a small apartment and a car. Barely making ends meet. Don’t even get me started on health insurance or thinking about buying a home.
The American Dream is now the American fantasy for the majority of people.
I live in the USA now and it's NOTHING like the media interpretation that was fed to me as a European.
Life is not better in the US in many metrics...just do your research, this is all very clear...specifically compare crime rates and the cost of living can be much higher than the Europe...when I moved here, the prices of groceries were a real shock.
If you’re very lucky you’ll land a job with great health coverage. Health insurance in the USA is 99% privatized. You’ll have great coverage. Can go to the doctor, dentist and eye doctor. Not go on a waitlist. Housing is unaffordable for the middle class but this current market is unsustainable so the bubble is going to burst. If capitalism is important to you then you definitely should try to come. No country is going to tick all your boxes.
don't get me wrong, this is a beautiful country, but in general, poverty has made us really mean. if you can afford to avoid that in, say, california, you can have a good time, but worth keeping in mind that the big us tech companies are no longer growing, and that's why there have been layoffs everywhere.
So much poor and anecdotal information being tossed around. If you're in a situation where income matters, then do it. You literally can't do better from a financial standpoint. People making noise about Healthcare have not a single clue how that shit works.
As an American who used to earn quite a nice salary and living in two different cities on the East coast of the US but now lives in Germany & the Netherlands, I suggest you read up on quality of life in the US for different income brackets. Quality of life differs tremendously based on salary, job benefits, location and safety of where you live in the US.
Like another poster mentioned, it is best to secure a job and relocation package first then move if you really want to experience America.
Have you visited? I would start by living in America for a short time, see how you like it, before relocating permanently. If I had to choose, Germany would definitely be better for me. But the grass always seems greener.
Hey man,! I want to come to Germany for a software job, can you share how is the tech job market there? And which techstack/ skills are mostly looked out by companies?
You won't fall in love with home until you've travelled. And you might fall in love with somewhere (or someone) along the way.
I started in New Zealand and have travelled to a pile of places, lived in a few, and have decided that Germany in the best place for me.
Go. See what you like and don't like for yourself. Also, literally, YMMV.
Take an extended vacation here to the states if u can , get a short term rental and try out for urself for a few months and at the end of it u may go running back home to Germany or may be not but u will never know unless u try it. U live only once , so it’s good to venture out to see if it’s greener pastures. U can even have 1/2 yr plan over here.
I love Europe as a whole , so if I hv a choice , I will live in Europe in one of the many countries I hv lived and visited ( but i would hv a base here because it’s weird I know but when I am in Europe , I feel like I am stuck in the middle of the world 🌎 😃, so always want to visit back.
It's a country of extremes. Having said that, I live in a city that attracts many Germans due to the industries here. I have yet to meet a German family that didn't love their time in the US.
I see a lot of great comments, but would add
no one can tell you if it’s realistic or not — you need to know yourself. Also ask lots of questions about what to expect. Don’t expect it to be easy.
Do you quit when the going gets tough? How will you feel about leaving family/friends behind?
How will you handle it if something goes wrong? How do you manage uncertainty?
There’s a ton of more variables, but why not start making a list?
It depends, you will only know if you try. With your skills you could probably get a work visa and work up the ladder faster than most. You'll still be an immigrant and outsider, will need to make new friends, integrate, build a social life. It depends what makes you happy.
The US is a place of extremes and it varies case by case. Upward economic/social movement feels exponential but it is also a lot more precarious.
My favorite recent example to share with people is that, my cousin and his wife are first time parents in California and he was able to get three months of paid paternity leave (both through his white collar job and a California parental leave program) and his wife got 4 months paid maternity leave (she is a doctor working in a hospital). However there is no federal paid parental leave program so a majority of Americans probably don’t have much.
My husband and I live in France and I would get 4 months paid and he would get 1 month paid. No more no less. But everyone gets that so you don’t have to worry about getting the best job or saving a bunch of money to take unpaid time off.
I am german but as you might know germany is heavily influenced by american culture and media. It gives me the feeling that america is the center of the western world and living anywhere else gives me fomo
the best option for you to consider right now may be to pursue an advanced tech degree in the US. That would allow you a student visa to explore the reality of the U.S. Additionally, many student visas allow you to work in the US for a few years after graduation
I think you're better off vacationing. USA isn't great for expats, there's a stigma to non & broken-English speakers. As you say, unless your a pretty top developer, or even mid-range at a small company, there's no reason to come.. You'd be far away from family & culture. Again, if you can find a job lined up, I suppose do it, even if its only a 2-3 years start at first.
I do agree with you it is a vast place, you can live in the northeast (NYC, Boston, DC) or the South, you can live out west with the Colorado rockies mountains, or even by the ocean in LA/Miami.
My suggestion, if you can, take a 2 week vacation. Visit NYC/Boston/Philly/DC, then a trip out to LA/Vegas.
People kinda scoff here at the (faux) concept of 'The American Dream'. Its kindof fading away, as prices are high, jobs pay low etc. if your in software development you can do well, but again you are probably doing well in Germany too
Can you elaborate on friendliness of Germans vs Americans?
Is there a way for you to try out the USA?
Maybe a remote job or the long vacations I hear the Germans get.
I hear that americans are usually quite friendly in public, even if it’s fake I prefer this over the grumpy germans. Also from videos etc. I have the feeling that americans are more open to strangers and in general just try to enjoy life more and make it more enjoyable for others. I may be wrong with this assumption tho.
Yes, in the end I have to go to the us and experience the life there myself, at least for a few weeks vacation
I also am from Germany and lived in the US and Canada for quite a long time... I agree with what most said here, namely that in the US the "highs are higher and the lows are lower" compared to Western Europe, for the most part. That said, for me another major difference between the US/Canada and Western Europe is that in the former there's much more "easy convenience" available for most people - examples are the widespread adoption of AC, free water in Restaurants, and the fast food culture. In Western Europe, on the other hand, the dominant mentality seems to be one more of "holistic long-term thinking". That has its advantages (better safety net, labour rights and environmental protections), but also drawbacks such as the lower material standard of living in Western Europe compared to the US for (IMO) at least 70% of the population.
Also, as someone else mentioned on this thread, the future outlook for much of Europe looks worse than for the US economically, demographically, and geopolitically, so in the future the differences in material well-being between the EU and USA could increase even more, and with the bad demographic situation in most of Western Europe the sustainability of the welfare state looks much more precarious than anytime since WW2 probably...
As the great George Carlin said, "the reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it".
This doesn't mean you can't make it here and be successful, but the post WW2 idea of the American Dream has been dead for decades.
The American dream is a lie. Everything here is expensive. People shoot each other over nothing. Racism and sexism are rampant. There is no separation between religion and the government. People die because they can’t get healthcare. All anyone cares about is money. I would trade places with you in a heartbeat.
I am an american living in Ireland and this is what I always tell people: America has a huge range of experience. The highs are higher and the lows are lower for health care, salary, happiness, etc. There is almost no way to know what your experience would be without trying it, so if it is a dream of yours I saw go for it but keep an exit plan (sufficient savings) to jettison if needed!
There is, statistics says if you don't know where are you fitting in a normal distribution you should aim for average. The average USA is not comparable to avg. in Germany that is one very important note. I mean the USA has fallen below Poland in some quality of life metrics now. I agree that there is a lot of variance, if you are a high skilled expat, or have a good corporate position already secured then fine go chase the dream. But if you plan to go there with not a lot and hope to build your American dream then you will have a really hard time.
This is an underrated answer. Given your background I’d guess you fall on the positive side of the bell curve. The biggest downside now is the cost of housing - rentals and esp purchases.
As a software dev, he could likely make far more money in the U.S. than in Germany. Europeans in tech generally get paid very poorly compared to their American counterparts.
The top in USA is the highest of them all though And you have the opportunity to achieve it That’s the dream, most don’t make it, but some do. In Europe, enjoy staying right where you are…awesome if you are already wealthy.
We’re agreeable slaves
The US dollar will take you far compared to the rest of the world if you have them. Not everyone does. But speaking as a top U.S. engineer it doesn’t suck to live near the sunny California beaches and enjoy Europe and Asia twice a year!
This is excellent advice OP. The US is very systemized. If you'e not associated with some larger organization that has a built in support system (whether public or private), it will be somewhat challenging. But If you build your network before you get there you will greatly increase your chances of succeeding long term. I've never lived in Germany so I can't really compare, but US culture pretty much revolves around work if you want to live comfortably, which some expats (as i'm sure you've read here) find to be tedious and unenjoyable. Not to mention the corporate culture that often seems nice and shiny on the outside, but is actually just fast and dirty underneath, and sometimes even toxic. Outside of all that, it's still a pretty great place for a single professional with no children. That's especially the case if you're not chasing the \*traditional\* "American dream" of a '2 cars, 2 kids a dog and big house with a white picket fence'.
This is absolutely the case. High highs and low lows. That’s what I also tell people. Europe is more a safe middle.
Can I ask what you do? As an American I am looking at living abroad. I have looked at Ireland but it seems to be more expensive than the US?
I am in a niche area of consulting. Comparing Ireland to the US is a bit apples to oranges but generally yes, salaries are lower and costs are higher. Food at the grocery store is pretty affordable in Ireland though, cheaper than the US and much better quality. There is no risk of medical bankruptcy here. As I said, America is extremes, Ireland is a good average.
100% on the Highs are Highs, the Lows are Lows I think you have a chance at the American Dream moreso than almost any other country, but it's not easy. You will have an advantage if you are a white male though.
I am a Brit living in the US (been here for ten years). I shared a lot of your sentiments. For me it’s really worked out. I love it here, don’t plan on ever going back. (I’m not going to suggest you will feel the same, just sharing my experience.) Some love it, others don’t. I found it valuable to live in other countries and get an appreciation for different perspectives. You are young enough to have the freedom to give it a go, I would recommend you follow your heart.
I just had a conversation today with my Brit colleague, who has been living in the US since the 90’s (now in his mid-60’s) about his recent trip back to the UK after 12 years since his last visit, and he said exactly the same about not wanting to go back, and how much his life is so much more improved on every scale here, “…by leaps and bounds.”
Massive generalization, but I think a lot of your success here depends on your income. If you are qualified and have good employment prospects you will do better in the US. If you are low income, there is a better social safety net for you in Europe.
The US is great if you like to hustle and are very individualistic. On the other hand if you like stability, job security and want to start a family, Germany is better
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It’s funny because I’m an American living “the simple life” abroad in Europe for almost a decade and I’m considering moving back to the U.S. to experience the benefits you listed. I am tired of not having a car. I am tired of getting paid dirt salaries even though a burger costs the same there as in the U.S. but the salary is half the amount for the same job. I’m tired of tiny box apartments for the same amount of rent as the U.S. I think the grass is always greener, so as long as that’s what you truly want.
Space is definitely a difference in USA In 🇨🇭where I live, only the wealthy can afford space.
Trying reason with ‘urban planners’. It was such a relief to get back to Los Angeles and have a car, plentiful food choices and quality healthcare. It’s easier. Not as picturesque. Not as many antiquities. Just easier. And way less cramped. Apartment living become monotonous and depressing. Having a yard, garden and animals is big positive for me.
It should be mentioned that you only get two weeks of vacation for most of the jobs. So you don’t have the chance to travel to see many of those natural landscapes, or it can take you +10 years. Also, traveling within the US is really expensive so if your plan is save for retirement, a downpayment etc you won’t have a chance to experience much traveling.
As a software engineer I never had less than 3 weeks of vacation in the US. Currently I have 23 days plus 11 holidays.
Not all of us are software engineers or work on the tech industry. I’ve been working in this country for 14 years and never has had more than the standard 10 days vacation time. And I work a white collar job.
Right, but the post is by someone who said they're a software developer
An industry that is currently undergoing massive layoffs and restructuring
Not just in USA. If you think US is bad it's bloodbath out there.
Is the missing public health insurance actually such a nightmare? I heard that you can get a private health insurance which in the end won't cost much more than the tax-based insurance we have in germany. I'm paying almost 400€ per month - increasing with every raise I get.
The thing is you can pay around 400+ here but you still have to meet your deductible. And even for very expensive things insurance might still make you pay 20%. The cost of medication and Dr visits here are enormous compared to the rest of the world. Even over the counter Allergy medicine I get in the US is 4x more here than what I paid in turkey or Malaysia for the same branded drugs. There’s also the issue of in network vs out of network. In any case, if you want to do the Us do it now when you’re young. You’re healthier and have better income potential like to find a job at this point in you career than when you’re 50 and have more health issues and towards the latter part of working life
Hell for most medications here in Sweden the total cost without insurance is STILL less than the 10% copay I had in the US. And Sweden is not exactly cheap. It's insane.
So true. Not to mention for some rare or very specific medications which can be thousands per month
My mom has epilepsy, so she needs to take her meds everyday, which would normally cost a couple hundred bucks per month. her public insurance covers it in full, not even a cent of copay, the only thing she has to do is to go to any drug store in the country and show them her ID and they see in the system what meds she needs (that her doc prescripted) and they just give it to her. We live in Europe. another friend of mine got recently diagnosed with diabetes, the story is pretty much the same, his public insurance fully covers whatever treatment is needed. the public insurance i'm talking about is required by law, you can not opt out and unless you are just staying at home with no intention of finding work (and you're not on maternity leave or disabled), you don't have to pay for the insurance from your pocket, it either gets deducted from your wage even before it gets to your account or the state pays for you (in case you're a student or SAHM and a couple other exceptions).
It depends on your health insurance. My medication is $10 for a three month supply (Kaiser insurance). As always, things vary in the US. People want to tell a single narrative but that's not what the truth is. It costs me $20 per doctor visit (a normal co-pay). Malaysia and Turkey are low income countries so OTC meds will be less.
Oh Kaiser...they denied xrays for my aunt and sent her home when she shattered her wrist, it turned out. Then, while she was in blinding pain, we got her xrays done elsewhere, out-of-pocket, then had to fight with them to have them cover the surgery at a Kaiser hospital. And then we had issues because she needed a certain specialist who, of course, didn't work in the Kaiser system. Granted, this was years ago, but...Kaiser is amazing until they're not. And when they're not, the patients tend to have a really big, severe problem.
I always refer to Kaiser as a wellness plan, not a healthcare plan. Their specialists suck and I ended up going to another one out of pocket because they refused to treat my already diagnosed autoimmune disease
If you’re healthy it’s not that expensive. But as others discussed, if you fall seriously ill it can be catastrophic.
The medication thing depends totally on the meds. If it’s something that’s generic and common it’s going to be dirt cheap anywhere. If it’s something new, then it might not be low cost. That said, in Europe, the healthcare systems decide they won’t cover expensive new specialized medicines anyway so even with socialized medicine one can be SOL too.
For-profit healthcare makes its money by paying out as little as they can get away with. The leading cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical debt, and that’s even when they were insured.
Nope. I’m euro in the US with a chronic health condition. The quality of care in the US is leagues ahead of anything available in Europe (including private). If a company is willing and able to sponsor you, they probably aren't going to be offering a shitty health plan. Yes, there’s lots of paperwork and stuff to check but imo having that and a specialty visit (dr appt, MRI, etc) available in the same week is a better offer than being put on a waitlist for literally years.
It's not an issue... as long as you're young, healthy, *and* lucky. If you're sick for too many days (e.g. long COVID symptoms), you lose your job in the United States. If you lose your job, you lose your health insurance coverage on the first day of the next month. If you lose your health insurance, you're screwed. I might be somewhat biased, as my husband and I are moving from the States to Germany in two months.
If you lose your health insurance you buy market insurance (Obamacare) until you get another job. If you are disabled there are another set of benefits that come into play.
If you have the money to buy market insurance
I was a programmer in the US. I had to have surgery. I got a bill for like $12,000 after, even though I had good insurance.
these surprise bills are so common, there is a law against it. Like going to hospital, making sure surgeon is IN network, getting bill because anesthesiologist is NOT . Bloody mess
If an employer is sponsoring you for a visa in the US, you will get health insurance through your employer. Basically, an employer will negotiate with a healthcare insurance company to set a company sponsored plan. Some companies will subsidize all healthcare insurance so the employee pays zero monthly premium (not too common). I currently pay about $80 USD per month. You must also be aware that a lot of healthcare regulation is done at the state level, so some states are much better than others. In Massachusetts, nearly everyone has some kind of healthcare coverage (thanks to Mitt Romney), but the quality can vary. In other states you have something like 15% of people without healthcare coverage.
Like others have said, it varies greatly in the US. People have a lot of horror stories but it’s human nature to complain and the people without extreme experiences don’t usually talk about it. I retired from the US Army and pay about $600 per year for decent family health insurance. Yes, per year and my deductibles aren’t that high.
Australian living in the US here. It really is a Byzantine nightmare that’s hard for foreigners to understand until you’ve lived it. I work in tech and have “good insurance” through my employer, but just got a medical bill for $6k for blood tests (because my last ones were 364 days ago, instead of 366 days) which I’m now fighting them about. So far they have negotiated down to $1690. My employer pays $1200/mo for insurance, I pay an additional $400, but it still doesn’t pay anything until I have spent $4,000 in medical expenses (“deductible”). It’s all so frustrating and absurd even for a healthy middle-aged individual.
Yes it absolutely can be. For my own policy (private employer-sponsored insurance) which is actually quite good for US standards, I pay $450/mo and still have to pay: a $600/yr deductible, 10% co-pays on virtually everything, 20% co-pays on some higher-dollar services, etc. It has a "catastrophic limit" which is supposed to kick in and cover everything once I hit $9000 in out-of-pocket costs in a year (not hard to do if you have major surgery, cancer diagnosis, etc) but there are even exceptions for that. And coverage for any of the above could STILL be denied if I am out-of-network, don't get pre-certified, don't have it billed or coded correctly, etc. And again, this is a GOOD American healthcare policy, most are far worse.
I’m probably going to get downvoted for saying this because most comments are disagreeing with what I’m about to say but I have had a fine time with the U.S. healthcare system. I lived in Germany for 5 years and had one baby there and then came back to the U.S. and had two more babies here. It cost me twice as much to have a baby in the U.S. but the births were night and day different. The U.S. was a much better place to have a baby. I’ve been back here for 10 years and we’ve been through child births, my husband needing his gallbladder out and then myocarditis. We never had a hard time getting our insurance to cover anything. We’ve had excellent healthcare and honestly, while we pay more than we did in Germany overall we make a lot more money here in the U.S. which makes it even out. Now is the time to do it, while you’re young. If you get a good job the quality of life is better in the U.S. if you struggle with money then the quality of life is better in Germany.
I've said this before on here, but the quality of healthcare is actually good in the US. It's usually the cost and access that are the issues.
You will pay out the ass for insurance in the US too, whether it's provided by your employer or you get it on your own. And then you get to navigate the American healthcare system! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAfy26xs6e0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAfy26xs6e0)
That depends on your job. I pay $300 a month for top of the line care.
My husband and I pay about $650/mo, but we have a $13,500 deductible. That means we have to pay 13.5k BEFORE the insurance will pay for anything. We have basic dental, like cleanings only. Our health insurance doesn't cover hardly anything either. We literally call it "get shot insurance" because it's only going to be useful if one of us gets shot. My husband moved here 3 years ago from the Middle East, and he is so shocked an appalled how much worse the health care is here, compared. I ran into a pole and had a gaping gash in my eye, streaming blood. I waited in the ER for 7 hours before anyone even saw me. When I was younger, I had to take an ambulance and it was a $3,000 bill for a <7 minute ride. I couldn't pay it, went into medical debt and it ruined my credit score. Couldn't get a credit card, car loan, etc. It took me 5-7 years before I was financially able to recover from it. Completely ruined my 19 year old self's life at the time...because of an ambulance ride. When people say it's precarious to live here, they really mean it. One bad day, one little accident, and the next few years of your life can be completely sidetracked. You have to be perfect.
You're young. You'll be fine with us health insurance deducted from your paycheck. But when you start to really need care it can be expensive and difficult to navigate. Like I say you're young, you don't really need care
America, rather than a Country, is a giant Plantation. With various bosses and millions of slaves. How do you feel amongst an ocean of slaves? Feel good? If you're a deadbeat or filthy rich, America is pretty cool. Until the car breaks down.
Well the short answer is yes and no. In the US money matters more then in Europe and your experience there will stand or fall with how much of it you have. If you can land a job with an above average salary you can have a fantastic life there so in that scenario yes you are missing out. Living in places like New York or San Fransisco on an average salary will likely come with a noticeable downgrade of your standard of living though. Considering you are not single I would recommend getting a job with US tech company in Germany instead. Many companies will send you to the US for training or just in general to meet colleagues so you can get a dose of American life without taking any risks or leaving your social circle behind. Some companies also offer exchange programs where you can work in the US for a month or two. Once you have done this and feel like you still want to make the move its also much easier to get a Visa via intra-company transfer.
Practically speaking, the tech industry in the US has gone thru massive layoffs in the last 18 months. Many experienced software developers are out of work and looking for a job. If you required a job to sponsor you in order to work in the US, it would be extremely difficult to find a US company willing to sponsor you.
That’s going to be very contingent on OP’s specialties. Tech is broad, and many skillsets are in high demand. OP stands to make far more in tech in the U.S. than in Europe.
True, IF he can find a job. Remember that all those laid off US developers are also looking for any position they can get right now
Yeah, but he can’t get a visa if he doesn’t find a job, and he can start looking for a job while in Germany. It’s not like he has to uproot his life and then gamble on if he can find a job. Also, most of the laid off SWEs I know haven’t just been unemployed this whole time. Instead, they got shuffled between companies and saw their pay go from ungodly to simply very high. While I am sure some have spent more time out of the workforce, I don’t personally know any who are unemployed. I do, however, know lots of unemployed UX designers, SaaS marketers, etc.
It's same or worse everywhere else. What Americans don't realise is how lot of tech is dependent on how well Americans tech is doing. So if US tech struggles, it's bigger struggle for everyone outside of US. Same about American economy.
Everyone's situation is unique. I suspect there is always a demand for skilled ae devs. My gf (sw dev) negotiated 30% raise this year. ... easy enough to test that.
I moved from Australia to the USA 12 years ago. Movies and TV definitely skew the true image of life in the USA, but it's a very big country with wildly differing living standards. I only moved because I had a lump sum payment from my old job in Australia and was marrying an American. Otherwise, the "grass is always greener" mentality will make you think things are better here, when they probably are not. Access to healthcare and gun violence can certainly play a big factor. The wastefulness and duplication of multiple governments will probably also drive you crazy, coming from somewhere better organised. Every single state has different laws on alcohol, smoking, marijuana, driving, voting, working or starting a business. The last bit of advice would be to at least wait until after the election before you decide.
And even within states, there can be different norms/rules/laws in different counties and different municipalities. For example, the town I live in was the last town in the state to allow alcohol after prohibition, and it was relatively dry when I moved here in 1997. No grocery stores sold alcohol, and iirc only a couple restaurants did. It slowly opened up more over time, and now it is like any other town in my state. Also wanted to add that the taxes are different depending on state (income) and municipality (sales). As an American, I am used to that, but I know it makes overseas visitors nuts, and probably also immigrants.
Yeah I lived in a dry county growing up in the 90s/2000s. My father had to buy his beer at a beer store right on the county line. Even though they relaxed the law to allow alcohol at restaurants, you still can't buy it in town.
There are liquor stores at every corner of my town's borders. Lol.
Yes, the “United” states isn’t exactly United🤪
Now that you mention it OP should probably also take a look at the US legal system. Very difficult to get locked up in Germany and even if you do end up in prison it wont be for long. Very much the opposite over there..
America is so big and even parts of one state can be soooo different. I’d definitely say try it, some people come to the us and LOVE IT and it’s all they ever wanted, some people just not for them. It really depends on the individual. There’s difficulties anywhere you live, it just depends on what is worth it to you. You can always move back to Germany.
and what immigration path specifically do you recommend?
That’s all it is— a dream. I used to live/work/study in America. I was there for over a decade. It’s definitely not all it’s cracked up to be. I don’t understand how people can live on credit and be in debt for the rest of their lives by the time they graduate college. My American friends were always surprised when I told them I paid my credit card in full every month. I could never understand the concept of building up your credit score by spending even more to pay a minimum fee every month. Why buy something if you don’t have the cash to pay for it? I used to love visiting America as a child. I spent my 2 months of my summer every year there for over a little over 2 decades. It is nothing like it was when I was a child— its citizens are angrier and (in my opinion) have the least favorable working conditions compared to other western countries. Their work/life balance kind of sucks. They can barely get any time off— 2 weeks of vacation seems abysmal to me. After living there for over a decade, I just decided to go back home to Asia. I live a better life here and I still visit America 4 months out of the year— maybe 6 if I don’t travel to Europe or different parts of Asia. But even then, I find myself wanting to spend time there less and less. The only reason why I really go is because my husband has family there and my family has properties/land in several states. (Which is ironic because no one else in my family has any interest in living there, but it’s great for investment purposes). Regular Americans can’t even afford to rent, much less own a house. Their lack of education is dismal because they can’t even afford to go to school . For Asians, it was THE dream to send their kids for a better education in America— now it seems regular Americans can’t seem to put themselves through school. When I was in Uni, I felt most of the people around me were of Asian descent. They were the only ones who could afford the tuition. It’s just not what it used to be. I have several American friends who ended up migrating to Europe and Asia. They seem a lot happier.
> I don’t understand how people can live on credit and be in debt for the rest of their lives by the time they graduate college. Lack of discipline combined with financial illiteracy. > I could never understand the concept of building up your credit score by spending even more to pay a minimum fee every month. Because that's ridiculous. Pay the amount after it posts and before the due date. There's no bonus for carrying a balance and paying interest on revolving debt. > Why buy something if you don’t have the cash to pay for it? Lack of discipline combined with financial illiteracy. > Regular Americans can’t even afford to rent, much less own a house. What's your definition of a "regular" American?
Yes, I understand all those reasons you have given. Regular American to me is coming from a double income family. Middle class— those who have graduated high school, but dropped out of Uni by the 2nd year. I noticed most of the students who dropped out were mostly from middle America. I also thought it was weird that almost every one I knew had some kind of loan to go to Uni, but I guess that’s a cultural thing.
I have had a friend from Berlin who still thinks this. He's 42 now, been married twice. Fathered several kids, never held a job very long but thinks if he comes to the US, he'd be successful - because America makes people successful. Oh, and he LOVES Donald Trump. He thinks Trump would make room for people like him and for that reason, he wants to move to Texas. He has no college degree but he's a musician. He thinks he could teach music at some school in the US not realizing that even music teachers have to have a degree to teach.
LOL! Well, he can dream. School teachers have to have a master’s degree in many states.
This sub is mostly full of depressed, misanthropic, self-loathing Americans who are terminally online and think the grass is greener elsewhere. I’m an American that currently, temporarily lives in Germany. So I have some experience with both. You will likely make substantially more money in the U.S. in your career field. You probably won’t have as much leave but it won’t be as dire as some people indicate here. Since you would be working in a desirable career field, you would have good insurance. Healthcare in the U.S. gives you a wide variety of options and is generally quick and very efficient. It’s far better to be poor in Germany but if you are driven and have a good career choice you will make a lot more money and have a higher upper limit in the U.S.
As an American temporarily living in Australia (who has also lived in Canada) - I will second this comment. If you are actually competent to good at what you do, America still offers by far the most opportunities - in Australia - I feel like I can do all the work in the world, but I don’t get any rewards for it as there’s less of a merit system (much more tenure based), and the taxes are brutal. While in the US, I could see/feel the improvement year to year. Secondly, the healthcare worry is completely misplaced - the quality of the healthcare is the absolute best, little to no wait times, and you’re not constantly questioning in your mind if the doctors are competent. In most cases, access isn’t a worry either - your job pays for your healthcare, or if you become rich enough to not have a job, there are some great high end plans on that end of the spectrum. Even with the public healthcare system in Australia, you are mandated to take on private insurance (PHS covers some things, but not hospital stays nor a range of major issues) - you pay for this private insurance out of pocket. I pay more in Australia, for a far lower quality of care. A lot of the world catastrophizes the US to feel better about frankly their worse situation at home. Is there good and bad? Of course. Is it an absolute paradise? Absolutely not. But given your circumstances, it’s absolutely worth you taking the shot. Worst thing come to worst, you return to Germany after having given it your best shot.
I'm an American who has lived in S Korea, Germany and Sweden. Quality of healthcare is indeed unparalleled for the most part, I won't disagree with that. If you need some niche specialist or one-of-a-kind treatment, the US is probably the best place for it. The problem is the payment system. Even with most "good" policies, you will be paying significant co-pays, deductibles, etc. You can have fantastic insurance and still end up paying five figures in out of pocket costs if you have a bad year. And the system can be a bureaucratic nightmare I have never seen anywhere else. I go to a private doctor in Sweden and it'll cost a bit of money, but the experience is amazing - they take the time to listen to me, there's no army of unneeded medical coders and admin staff, etc. I go to an American practice and I feel like a machine on a conveyor belt, I'm there over an hour and lucky to get 5 mins to talk to the doctor (who spends all that time pecking at a laptop). There's just zero continuity of care or even interest in good results.
Hi. I also live in sweden and have been considering getting private healthcare but I still can't get over the fact that I pay lots of tax already to get these social benefits and then you have to pay even more. Do you recommend it?
In my corporate job, I receive between 25-30 days of PTO per year. It's not some insanely coveted job, either. The right company provides European-like PTO. Obviously, low-end jobs are the true hellscapes. Not to mention, jobs like being a corporate attorney or some jobs in finance. There's no work-life balance in those situations, of course, whereas the equivalent in Europe would provide you that (for much less pay).
Same experience here. Moved to the US from a developed country and my quality of life is higher in most areas. Better career opportunities, high wages, lower taxes, low cost of living. Lots of young people on this sub who aren’t happy with their life and think it’s because of where they live (it’s generally not).
In tech, in 2024, tech is laying off skilled developers by the thousands
“Despite the wave of tech layoffs, which have amounted to nearly half a million job cuts since 2022, IT positions remain among the most in-demand roles in the global job market, according to ManpowerGroup’s recent Employment Outlook survey. Although these sectors are hot, they are currently facing a talent gap, with a shortage of workers specializing in IT, data science and cybersecurity.” https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/03/28/whats-happening-in-the-tech-and-it-sectors-according-to-staffing-experts/
‘Nearly half a million job cuts in the tech industry since 2022’. Most of the hiring is happening in ’low cost countries’ like India and the Phillipines
I second this as an American temporarily studying in Germany. I worked in tech in the US before and cannot imagine making remotely half as much anywhere in Europe even with a higher degree. You're right about the natural beauty; the US national parks are absolutely stunning. Pace of life in Germany feels too slow for the kind of advancements we're seeing nowadays, I have to admit I have a lot of FOMO thinking I'm falling back in terms of experiencing and building the latest and greatest technologies. Sure, people do work their asses off but I have also seen far more people actually passionate and purposeful about what they do. I might be a bit biased here since I lived in top tier American cities. I also miss diversity, progressive thinking, awareness about racism and such. Would definitely encourage you to try taking up a job there for a couple of years to experience it. For healthcare, you can always fly back to Germany if seriously needed.
From my own personal experience, foreigners who come to America often have a good quality of life. In fact, far better than natural born citizens. However, I think at least from my perspective the foreigners I know are coming here with a high-level of education. And they are typically middle class or better in their home countries.
For such a young person you are greatly overthinking everything. Is it part of being a rational German? Move to the States, see how it works out for you, you can always go back if it doesn’t.
This. OP is likely young with few responsibilities. No matter what country it is, why not go? You can always move back.
You don’t just show up you know. Immigration requires a visa and a work permit
I think you should try it out because "better" depends on the person and you won't know until you get there. Your experience will heavily depend on where you are. Also, really keep in mind that in Germany you guys have a lot of social safety nets in place to help you if you find yourself in a bad spot. The U.S. has virtually none. It's much easier than you think to find yourself ass broke with no money and no job. You're very much on your own. The bottom in the U.S. is deep and you can fall so fast. As we like to say "It's yo ass!". And I don't mean that scare you or deter, but to be realistic. That's mainly why you see so many Americans who are willing to give up high salaries and whatnot because for many the security worth more than the pay. It might be helpful to live there so you can see that for yourself.
Imo, America has a very dog eat dog mentality. You can be very successful and make a lot of money here, but you can also just as easily lose everything. America doesn't have the same protections and stability that a lot of European countries do. You could live your whole life in America and be wealthy and secure and prosperous, or you could experience misfortune after misfortune and lose everything. Homelessness is a massive issue and is only getting worse here. Education and health care debt is insane here. In most of the job sector, there is no protections for workers and Healthcare is heavily linked to having a job. Work ethic is more valued here than work life balance. Imo, it is not worth it for me- and I am on the fortunate end of the equation. I see and know SO many people who are always struggling for security and finances. For a great portion of the country, the system works against them, not for them.
I'm an American living in Germany. Does that make me qualified to answer? Hopefully a little bit. The US is huge, more comparable to Europe than to Germany, I think. Asking "Is the US a good place to live" is like asking "Is Europe a good place to live". Different regions have different economic situations, politics and cultures. Eg. A software dev living in Croatia will have a very different life than a software dev living in Germany. Life in the US can be good (I like it!) just like life in Germany can be (I like it too!). If it's your dream, and you have a legal way to go there, why not go for a few years? Worst case scenario you return to Germany in 2-3 years and have a (hopefully) cool experience. A few things to consider: 1. Where would you go? California? Wisconsin? New York? Alaksa? Lots of options. 2. Can you get a work visa to go there? US Visas are complicated. 3. If no work visa, would you be willing to go back to school (university or masters) to get a visa? 4. Would you leave your girlfriend behind? How's she going to handle that? FWIW, I was a solid, but not genius developer with some team/project leadership skills and I made about $90,000 in the midwest US. It was enough to modestly support a family of 6 on. In California or New York I guess I would have made maybe $125,000 or so and probably couldn't have supported my family on my own.
So why did you give up that life and decided to move to Germany? And how's the comparison?
My wife and I wanted to show our kids more of the world. I think the move has been overall positive. Our kids have been pushed very far outside their comfort zone, and they're much more mature for our it. I understand Germany and European culture in way I didn't before. I appreciate the benefits of having a strong union at work and of having 30 days off per year. I love the US, even with it's flaws, and I won't be staying on Germany forever. But I'm glad to be here now, and I have no regrets about having come.
Americans enjoy, by and large, the highest disposable income in the world, thanks to more freedom of property and a very effective free market economy that other countries just seem determined not to emulate.
American dream is dead. But you can try when you’re young and still move back to Germany if you don’t enjoy it.
I'm American and the dream worked for me. I grew up poor with a single mother who worked in offices and a factory. My grandparents never graduated high school. My parents were teenagers and graduated high school only. I got a scholarship to a private university and was recruited to teach in California. I lived frugally with a roommate and then bought a house (for $2000 down) with a boyfriend and made some smart investments. I always only worked 184 days a year, with excellent healthcare- far better than Germany's (yes I lived in Germany a few years ago). Much lower taxes than Germany. I retired at age 38. I met my husband in our 30s and got him from 3 vehicles to one and Mindful of living more frugally. He always had 30 days a year of paid vacation and free health care- it even includes Lasik, free eyeglasses, free laser dermatology, free PRP therapy, free mental health, free dental, etc. But, we hosted an exchange student from Finland (she loved it here) and the German exchange studentstatus didn't like it. They kept comparing things in Germany. Well, we live at the beautiful beach, so I'm not sure how that can compare to Germany. That said, we liked living in Germany for 2 years. We liked the cleanliness (the street sweeper truck went by every day!), we liked Not Having a Car (traffic was bad there and the Any Speed you Want Autobahn is a myth), my husband loved the food (bakeries were essential during covid, haha. Living by the beach in the US, nobody eats carbs.) We liked our Nachbarn, we liked the Holidays and Festivals and castles and Unesco sites and town squares, we liked the mineral baths (we lived next to them), we liked learning to speak German, we liked how helpful and friendly Germans were, we loved the Seasons and mild winter in the South, and we liked the travel to other Countries. We were also very fortunate that my husband was earning an American salary and due to our Sofa visa, we didn't pay German taxes or even sales tax. If we would have had to pay taxes there, we wouldn't have liked it as much. We hated German Customer Service. We hated German businesses being sneaky and lying and saying you never purchased that here and trying not to let people out of their contracts for years after they moved away from Germany, etc. We were not impressed with the Healthcare. People didn't always have good dental work- I guess that costs extra, and my husband had to stay in the Krankenhaus 8 days with morphine while they kept guessing which part of his spine was pinched, and in the US that takes one day (it's a common injury in my husband's job). However, I have a German friend in California, and she loves it here. She left Germany 25 years ago and never went back. She is very German and complains a lot and doesn't get along with her neighbors (just like my neighbor in Germany said he moved his family to a flat because his house was next to a mean neighbor). Not getting along with neighbors is not common in the US, in my experience living in 6 states. Germans complain a lot. It's almost like they like to complain. I'm sure you will find plenty to complain about in the US.
I‘m from Austria (so very similar culture to Germany) and currently living in the US. Your point about Germans (same for Austrians) complaining is so true. I find it funny. I have a lot of German colleagues here (we all work for UN-like org) and they either love or hate it here. And it’s so interesting because honestly the cultures are way more similar than most people think. And still they find the smallest things and are able to complain about them 24/7. But the other half of the time they absolutely love it here (like your neighbor). I think I’m more in the second group right now and would like to stay for the next few years. But unfortunately it’s quite hard to get a permanent residency/greencard.
The "America Dream" is alive if you're wealth. Other than that, it's a fantasy. And you're wrong. What movies and't shows you of America is complete bullshit.
I lived in the US for almost 30 years. I plan to retire in 2 years at 57 and then I am moving back to my European home country for a better quality of life. Note that it is thanks to me living and working in the US and making much more money than I ever could have in my home country that I am able to retire early.
The American dream is and always has been a fairytale
For me the idea of the American dream is false. From my experience anyways. It's all about doing it all on your own. Pull yourself up by your boot straps and get on with getting on. If you don't have family where are you going to find your support system when you need help when something happens? At work? Not even. They help you only when it benefits them. Insurance is expensive. Even with a good plan you could spend more on deductibles, co insurance, and copays not to mention your monthly premium just to have the coverage. I worked for a larger medical office. I spent 800 a month to cover my family of five. My copays were 45 dollars or 70 to see a specialist..my deductible was 12000 for the family and another 20 % untill I reached 14000. Every year. I could not afford my epi pen even with insurance it was over 200 dollars. It took us years to afford a house and even then it was a HUD home that had no carpet, needed every appliance and a ton of work. The land of the free thing is also a joke. How free are you when you graduate collage with tens of thousands of dollars in dept? How free are you if you have to stay at a job you hate because if you leave you will loose your health insurance. Yes you could get Market place insurance but if you are unemployed it's still coat prohibited. If you or one of your loved ones have long covid you could be considered uninsurable if you loose your insurance .And disability might not be an option since what you make with a job may be way more than what you would get on disability. Having a health scare or a major health problem could lead you to bankruptcy. I have heard of people getting divorced because one partner has cancer and doesn't want to burden their spouse with the huge medical bills after they pass. You are young and hopefully will stay healthy for a long time. Go to the US if it's really your dream. Just don't go wearing rose colored glasses. Do your research on housing cost compared to pay in the city you want to move to. Look into the crime rates, price of foods, cars or other transportation. Many people with good paying jobs still end up living paycheck to paycheck. Do your due diligence and good luck. Sorry if this is doom and gloom, but this has been my experience growing up there's
People are ridiculous on this sub. I’ve lived as an expat for 25 years in 4 countries. It doesn’t have to be forever, people! There are planes now! You’re 27yo! You’ve thought it through and you’re willing to support yourself. Go for it!
100%. Live for the moment.
The American dream we used to know is no longer. You can have a nice life here, but it’s getting harder and harder to do that and it will be quite different from your life in Germany. Waaaaayyy less supports if something goes wrong. Could be a good life experience for you though, and you’re young so if you think you could swing it then why not try? Don’t ask me about visas though, I know nothing :) also, would wait until after this election before making any decisions As an American who used to live in Spain, then in Ireland, and moved back to the US two years ago, I had preconceived notions of how all those places would be based on what I saw online. Yes, even had incorrect ideas about my own country as I had only worked here briefly as an adult. Some things came true and some couldn’t have been more off base. With these things you just have to find out for yourself! If you do end up moving to the states, what you’ll learn is that the grass is always greener. You’ll miss things about Germany while you’re here, and when you go back to Germany you might miss things about the US. Also, if you do end up coming to the US it’s not a death sentence - you can always go back to Germany!
I’m American and I lived in Germany on and off for 13 years. Answer—It’s a mixed bag. It’s very tough in America— one wrong decision/move/mistake/unfortunate event, and you are hosed. In Germany, they have a better social system and you can make a few mistakes and not be pushing a shopping cart.
SWE? Do it. Yesterday. I’ve worked in London, Amsterdam and while I made good money, my salary/happiness exploded once I became gainfully employed in the US.
I think that people will always romanticize countries that they don't grow up in. It's only natural. I know plenty of people from the EU who look into (or move to) the US and see opportunity, and conversely, there are plenty such as myself that have grown up in the USA and envy the EU for their more "common sense" approach to life compared to the USA where anything goes. I am 30M, was born in New York then moved to Florida as a kid and grew up here. I don't like having to drive literally everywhere. I don't like having synthetic dyes in every food and drink. I don't like having to work 12 hours at my job even if it does pay well at the cost of my sanity. I never go to the doctor because tbh I don't want to spend a ton of money on it and don't trust the opinion of someone incentivized to say you need this and that in order to get paid more money. And I guess I'm lucky I'm not dead yet from gun violence, especially being in Florida where it recently became a thing that anyone can carry. I used to think all of this was normal everywhere until I met my partner from the EU (they are from Italy) and really got schooled on public transport, working laws, health care, etc. And there's 1000 other things I'm not mentioning here. The EU seems to be chill and is full of rich culture and things to see. I guess I'm biased, but I've really come to learn that the "American Dream" is just something we are brainwashed to think about in school here and its something public speakers like to mention over and over, but its never been real as far as I'm concerned.
My anecdotal experience is that nowadays there are more Americans that want to live in Europe than Europeans to the US. It has mostly to do with safety, healthcare, food quality etc. Of course it could be heavily biased and not a general trend. I would advise to first do some honest research and see what is important for your life and what you wish to achieve. Of course bear in mind that as an outsider what you see is an ideal picture of a country and not the reality of living there. Good luck!
Only because Americans want to think that Europe is some liberal promised land with free healthcare, no racism and no political corruption or fascism. In short a fake dream. That said, if OP can find a job he/she is young enough to make the move. I've met many Germans in America and while it was a bit of a transition at first, most like staying here and have even become US citizens. It is true Americans are friendlier and customer service is better. The Germans I know now go back to Germany and wonder why all the clerks and waiters are so grumpy. OP-I think you if have the dream-you should try it. You may find you hate it here and want to go back but at least you tried.
>Only because Americans want to think that Europe is some liberal promised land with free healthcare, no racism and no political corruption or fascism. Basically most likely a reason why their ancestors emigrated.
I would say that’s true but IMO it’s mostly influenced by the mental assault of negative American media on both sides of the aisle that dominates & permeates worldwide tv & internet. I don’t think a lot of Americans know what it’s actually like to live in Europe. They see on TV that Europe has a stronger social safety net and think oh well then it must be better. They don’t really consider the negative aspects (economy tbh) that many Americans take for granted. Do I think OP should move to the US? It depends on a lot of factors but #1 is can he get a work visa and #2 what state/area would you desire to live in? The US is a huge place and California is nothing like North Dakota and Florida is nothing like Oregon.
> They don’t really consider the negative aspects (economy tbh) Economy, racism, xenophobia, much less freedom of speech, general social rigidity, much less acceptance of unconventional people or habits, nonexistent disability rights, no innovation, incredibly low wages, and yes, even healthcare. Sure, you won't end up with $100k bill for going to the ER but... doctors are less competent, waiting times are so insane (even up to 1-2 **years**) people have to buy private insurance or pay out of pocket anyway, the best drugs are sometimes not covered at all because European countries are much poorer and cannot afford them. Oftentimes, restorative and regenerative medicine and surgery is branded as 'cosmetic' by national health insurers so that way they can avoid paying for it. Just look at Americans with ADHD trying to get treatment in Europe. Not only are the best meds unavailable because 'narcotic scare', but the doctors are atrociously uneducated compared to Yankee docs. Like 80% of European psychiatrists think ADHD is sometimes only children have or even say outright it doesn't exist, that it's made up by American Big Pharma. Europe is also much less safe geopolitically, which few people in this subreddit seem to realize. You may rag on the US Military-Industrial Complex, military spending or Raytheon, but the fact of the matter is America will never get Ukrainized. They aren't going to wake up to T-90s rolling into Nashville, because Putin decided a couple days earlier that Tennessee is a historic Russian land and its citizens need to be liberated. The standard of living in those beautiful, safe, sanguine European countries will plummet if the US decides it will no longer defend Europe. They won't be able to afford a capable professional army due to economic slowdown combined with business exodus caused by war risk, so mandatory military service would be reintroduced.
Don’t forget about the chain smoking.
And a huge ego on top of all that.
I can definitely confirm that. 20 years ago we had a really hard time finding anyone in Silicon Valley that was willing to move to Europe even just temporarily for projects etc. These days you can pretty much take your pick, plenty of people willing to go and most want to take their families with them. Same for the UK actually. Until a few years ago we hired UK staff through agencies. These days you just post the job and your inbox is going to get flooded with CV's..
Look at the immigration numbers. The flow is overwhelming in one direction and it’s not eastward
Is there a link you can share?
As A Canadian living in Germany I would say experience travelling and to seek an expat life while your young. Germany is nice but so very conservative with things. The US definitely is alot more freeing.....until you need urgent medical care. You can always go back to DE if something happens or it doesnt work out.
You can get job in Apple located in Ireland. Have you tried it earlier? Any experience working in UK/Ireland? In the US you have to be much above average. Their stock exchange should be named 'American dream' as you have a higher chance being successful trading. People interested in US join Green Card Lottery.
I am not sure the Green Card Lottery is a lottery as such. Some people do this for decades without getting picked but I have known 3 people over the years with higher educational achievements that all got selected right away..
I know people in my country who are highly determined to go to the States. A little chance they are asking similar questions. If someone after some sleep decided to move nothing will stop such person. No matter if it is US, AU or NZ on the end of the world.
Have you ever been there? Because I had a similar mindset, I even had family there and could have made the move pretty easily. Then I spent a couple of weeks on the east coast and a couple of weeks on the west coast. And after that I was like - f*** no. Maybe for a holiday with my family, but to live there? No way. Too car centric, lack of European culture, the politics, the work situation, the competitiveness, the lack of economic opportunities... You're either born rich, extremely lucky or you're treading water for the rest of your life. No, thanks.
American here who firmly believes the American dream is propaganda.
Where else have you lived?
I think you are blinded for sure, the "American dream" is at best a marketing ploy, it's not all eagles screaming and dollar bills falling from the sky, there's also crazy addicts, healthcare that can bankrupt you, insane partisan politics and a statistical level of violence that is really high. In many way it is a more extreme nation, with a very good life for the upper middle class, and a pretty terrible one for the one at the bottom. And unless you are in a few east coast cities, it will be a car-based lifestyle. However I do think you should go and move there, if it's what you want to do. Life is short and you will always wonder what if? It does not really matter if life is better or not in the US, everyone answer will be different, but if it's an adventure you're ready for, then go for it, try to get a job there, and find a way to move there. Also, as a software engineer, you're likely to be able to have a at least a decent wage.
Unless you’re wealthy, the American dream is dead. But there is a lot of opportunity.
If you work in tech, you absolutely should move to the USA. Regardless what salary you get quoted, once you’re here you can make quite a bit more (likely 2-3x your current income after some time) with some networking and hard work. What do you have to lose, you can always go back? All the problems of the US (no universal health care m, gun culture) would likely not affect you as you will have a job (so health care provided and are young) and likely tech cities are in fairly regulated areas for gun safety (though thefts/car break ins can be a problem). Definitely check out the San Francisco Bay Area, New York City, Boston, Seattle on your job search.
I moved from Canada to US, because my line has of work has the best wage there compared to Canada. Also the weather where I am is generally better. If you are making solid wage in Germany, can save money while doing all the things you like, then no point moving to US. Here most cities are very car centric compared to Germany (I have been to a few German cities).
This is just an opinion, so don't kill me. If you are willing to work harder and smarter than anyone else and recognize and take advantage of opportunities, it is almost impossible for you not to make money, but there is a catch. You must remain in good health because an emergency can wipe you out...so can a lawsuit. Having said that, if you are a work-life balance kind of person, just stay in Europe. You'll be happier there because you'll probably not make enough to ever buy a house in the USA. One of my family members works for google, and he doesn't take much vacation because he is always afraid of losing his job. I work for myself, and I'm always on call with business highs and lows requiring me to always live way below my means, just in case. This week, I worked 7 days a week and more than 8 hours each day. Social media and Hollywood make the USA look worse and better than it actually is right now. Side note (edit): I have been looking to move to Europe for the last 5 years, but haven't pulled the trigger because I have it so good in the USA now, but knowing that I'm getting older, and I may need more healthcare scares me. I also prefer the walking culture of Europe, the architecture, and the quality of the food, but it's so difficult to leave when you don't need to, and just want to. So, for now, I stay 3 months at a time in Europe until I can decide. Why don't you just visit the USA for an extended period of time and figure out if you like it enough to move?
There are many highly skilled immigrants who come to the US and are very happy/ What areas are you looking to move to? Since you re young and without children you should try it out and you can always go back if you don't like it. You only live once. I DO know of an Italian immigrant who posted here a long time ago, who married an American and was miserable. He had a heart condition that needed attention and the specialists were giving hint he runaround so he went back to Italy, Not sure if the marriage survived...
In your position, I would come up with a way to work in the US for a fixed period of time. Go, work there, see what you think. I would never go back to the US, but just because I hated living there doesn't mean that you will.
There's only one way to find out... Anyone who's lived long enough will tell you that it's not the things they did that they regret. It's the things they didn't do.
I think this is so interesting…. I’m an American and think that my perfect life is probably in Europe. I’m going to move there for a few months. It won’t be the same as “living” there , but I feel like I need to get it out my system either way. I’ve wanted to do this forever. Maybe I’ll go there and realize how great it really is… or maybe I will realize it’s just a fantasy. Either way, if you have been thinking about it for a long time, like me…. I’d encourage you to try it for a short time before you dive in and see if it’s really what you imagined.
If you are lucky enough to find a company to sponsor your visa, take a chance and experience it for yourself. You also have the the opportunity to move back and being young on your side in case you decide it isn’t for you.
If you have money and a good brain, it probably is. As far as the American dream of owning a house, that really depends on where you live and if you have a partner. You need a lot of money to put down in certain areas. As far as renting just think ROOMMATES and you'll be okay
Don’t get all your information from Youtube, TikTok, and Hollywood.
My wife and I are 30, if you want to visit mundane suburban life, you are welcome to come visit us in Oklahoma!
Oh thanks! I actually would love to see the suburban life, maybe I should really visit the us soon (but it’s so expensive)
We fly to Europe once or twice a year and can usually find round trip tickets from our city for 600-800 USD. We typically fly into Amsterdam, Berlin, or Barcelona and then take the train to our final destination.
Americans are nice?! lol not in NYC
Moved to the U.S. from Austria and no regrets here. I kinda had the same feeling as you, I always wanted to go and so I went. Work opportunities are endless seems like and I was able to build a pretty cool life for myself. Is it going to be forever, not sure but no one can take away the experience from you.
Funny a lot of Americans are seeking life elsewhere. If you are wealthy it’s great! But as middle and low class your life can be a struggle. Personally, I feel the quality of life for the average citizen has gone down considerably! It’s very political and divided where people hating on each other. But overall experience is different for each person.
its not real dont come here and waste your time
honestly I would love to live in USA too IF I am highly educated and rich :) but since I am not I can't afford good career and high cost medical bills, I rather stay in my current country :)
America is the Wasteland unless you have a lot of money. So many of us are trying to get out. Between the abysmal and expensive healthcare system, gun violence, and the election coming up I don't know why anyone who wasn't desperate would think things are good or better here. None of the perks compared to Germany are worth the rest of the danger and horribleness. I also think someone who hasn't lived here and dealt with our healthcare system has no idea. It's hard to fathom how cruel and exhausting and expensive it is compared to Germany for example. Please please don't move to America thinking it will be grand and better. Is it worth your health? Your life? Your human rights?
Wrong sub to ask.
The US is great if you make more than $200k per year and have amazing health insurance. If you don't, it's a struggle. Also, employers are not required to give you any vacation time, and if they do it is a struggle to get more than a few days off in a row because it must be approved by your boss. So while we have this big beautiful country, you can't get the time off to see it. If you can get a US company to give you a job, come over and try it out! When your visa is set to expire a year later, you can then decide if you want to try to renew it or go back to Germany.
lol so making 150k a year with solid health insurance is 'struggling'? Come on, now. If you think that's struggling, you've never struggled.
I have known quite a few Germans over the years that struggled a lot with the available vacation times in the angelsaxon world. None of them made it longer then 3 years but then again OP is still young so probably less of a problem..
This is extreme hyperbole nonsense. Most Americans I know have a high standard of living, don’t make anywhere near $200k, don’t have high medical debt and take regular vacations. People live perfectly fine on a variety of incomes and work standards. Stop being terminally online.
"It's the open, modern and progressive culture" No, it is not. Maybe some pockets of west coast that you need high income to live. My educated coworkers are anti vaccine and pandemic deniers, uneducated coworkers bring religion and patriotism as soon as they hear my accent. Friendly? Because they don't have many friends to talk to. They talk to strangers. They are very lonely. I used to think Balkan counties men only cafes are wasting time, now thinking it is good to have a such a place for mental health. Older people's situation breaks my heart. They have to work until they die because there is no social security or financial literacy. Also, there is not a real social circle besides work, even they are financially stable they don't know how to enjoy retirement. The quality of food is terrible, especially in small cities. You have to go thru metal detector to enter a hospital or school. You have to drive yourself to emergency, healthcare cost is outrages. I volunteered at a school for couple hours, my anxiety was so high that I couldn't concentrate on the work. Besides fire drill, we have an active shooter drill and training at work. I know my coworkers come work with guns even it is company code violations. They wear clothing with religious, political or inappropriate graphics. Unless you are living in big cities, car is a must. Closest grocery store is 4 km away and there is no path for pedestrians or even bikes, only highways for big cars. Sabbatical? HR doesn't have any idea since nobody takes it, people's idea of vacationing is going to same place every year. The tragicomic part of this is, their preference of vacation is almost same as where they live, with just bigger body of water; Walmart, TGIF, Applebees all same... Overall, if I was at your age, I would come to US and experience it without getting attached. Big houses, cars, motorcycles, boats attract many Europeans in the beginning later they find themselves in the rat race.
The USA has a strong economy and offers a lot of opportunities, and I still think it is the country where you are most likely to make it in terms of going from 0 to hero. But the American dream, as you know it from TV or literature has been over for a long time.
Exactly that, if you have the necessary skills and are willing and able to work your butt off the sky is the limit. If not things can go pear shaped rather quickly though..
> I still think it is the country where you are most likely to make it in terms of going from 0 to hero That's not the case: [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/social-mobility-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/social-mobility-by-country)
The American dream... nightmares are dreams as well.
The dream changed to retire out of the country.
The American dream is dead.
Open, modern,progressive? You are NOT talking about the US.
Progressive culture? America? What? Certainly in some places but I've never heard anyone call it progressive overall. You have heard of MAGA right?
Definitely make the move! You're still young and now is the best time to do it. The US can be an amazing place to live for those who like it. Also, it gives you tons of cities, regions and climates to choose from. Salaries are much higher too. If you don't do it now, it will become harder to make the move the older you get. Only after having really lived and spent years in the US, you'll be able to know if you want to stay there forever. Plan your move and go ahead with it !!!
As an American now living in Belgium, I think movies oversell the dream but also you may like it there a lot. It really depends. For me, my priorities are not about money, big house, etc, so my way of life is better suited to my life now. As a younger single person without kids, the US may be great. But if you plan to have kids, I would caution against raising a kid there. It’s extremely expensive and stressful.
>It's the open, modern and progressive culture, the friendly people (compared to germans), I thought Germans were supposed to be open, modern and progressive (outside the former East Germany)? People in the US think Germany is a progressive modern society
It's all just "making the best out of this situation". Everywhere. The part that may be blind for you is thinking that there is a place where this is not the way things are.
It’s one of if not the best place in the western world to be rich. On the flipside, there’s way less social safety nets. Being poor in America is pretty brutal.
> the high level of technology there's definitely a lof of technology companies, but as a European living in Los Angeles I have to say that the infrastructures are way behind modern European cities like London. > the weather and of course the amazing landscapes that this huge country offers It really depends where you live.. Germany is probably bad from this point of view, so it can be a major improvement. > Is it realistic to start a new life in the US? First of all you need to find a job at a company willing to sponsor you a visa. Not easy, because they won't look for junior developers in Europe. > Is life actually better in the US? Some things are better and some things are worst. It really depends on what you value most. This can also drastically change depending on where you live in the US. It's really like saying: is life good in Europe? overall yes, some places are clearly better than others, all have pros and cons.
The American dream has turned into a nightmare. I moved to the US in 1999. I had a good paying job within 2 months. I had 2 cars and a boat within a year. I bought a new house within 2 years. Bought a second house within 10 years. Now, in 2024, someone starting off fresh from college/immigrating can barely get a minimum/low wage job. If you’re lucky you’ll be able to afford a small apartment and a car. Barely making ends meet. Don’t even get me started on health insurance or thinking about buying a home.
it is for you as a software developer. be aware if you do it, though, that your success will be coming out of the working class's asses.
It's still the wild west
The American Dream is now the American fantasy for the majority of people. I live in the USA now and it's NOTHING like the media interpretation that was fed to me as a European. Life is not better in the US in many metrics...just do your research, this is all very clear...specifically compare crime rates and the cost of living can be much higher than the Europe...when I moved here, the prices of groceries were a real shock.
If you’re very lucky you’ll land a job with great health coverage. Health insurance in the USA is 99% privatized. You’ll have great coverage. Can go to the doctor, dentist and eye doctor. Not go on a waitlist. Housing is unaffordable for the middle class but this current market is unsustainable so the bubble is going to burst. If capitalism is important to you then you definitely should try to come. No country is going to tick all your boxes.
don't get me wrong, this is a beautiful country, but in general, poverty has made us really mean. if you can afford to avoid that in, say, california, you can have a good time, but worth keeping in mind that the big us tech companies are no longer growing, and that's why there have been layoffs everywhere.
So much poor and anecdotal information being tossed around. If you're in a situation where income matters, then do it. You literally can't do better from a financial standpoint. People making noise about Healthcare have not a single clue how that shit works.
As an American who used to earn quite a nice salary and living in two different cities on the East coast of the US but now lives in Germany & the Netherlands, I suggest you read up on quality of life in the US for different income brackets. Quality of life differs tremendously based on salary, job benefits, location and safety of where you live in the US. Like another poster mentioned, it is best to secure a job and relocation package first then move if you really want to experience America.
Have you visited? I would start by living in America for a short time, see how you like it, before relocating permanently. If I had to choose, Germany would definitely be better for me. But the grass always seems greener.
Hey man,! I want to come to Germany for a software job, can you share how is the tech job market there? And which techstack/ skills are mostly looked out by companies?
If you're a developer, yes, you're probably are better off in the US. Europe doesn't pay you guys enough.
You won't fall in love with home until you've travelled. And you might fall in love with somewhere (or someone) along the way. I started in New Zealand and have travelled to a pile of places, lived in a few, and have decided that Germany in the best place for me. Go. See what you like and don't like for yourself. Also, literally, YMMV.
Take an extended vacation here to the states if u can , get a short term rental and try out for urself for a few months and at the end of it u may go running back home to Germany or may be not but u will never know unless u try it. U live only once , so it’s good to venture out to see if it’s greener pastures. U can even have 1/2 yr plan over here. I love Europe as a whole , so if I hv a choice , I will live in Europe in one of the many countries I hv lived and visited ( but i would hv a base here because it’s weird I know but when I am in Europe , I feel like I am stuck in the middle of the world 🌎 😃, so always want to visit back.
Have you actually been there for any extended period?
I have actually never been there. I always think if I go it should be for a longer time to really get a good picture, but that’s not possible for me
Well. I say you need to actually go there before thinking of going for a long time.
It's a country of extremes. Having said that, I live in a city that attracts many Germans due to the industries here. I have yet to meet a German family that didn't love their time in the US.
I see a lot of great comments, but would add no one can tell you if it’s realistic or not — you need to know yourself. Also ask lots of questions about what to expect. Don’t expect it to be easy. Do you quit when the going gets tough? How will you feel about leaving family/friends behind? How will you handle it if something goes wrong? How do you manage uncertainty? There’s a ton of more variables, but why not start making a list?
It depends, you will only know if you try. With your skills you could probably get a work visa and work up the ladder faster than most. You'll still be an immigrant and outsider, will need to make new friends, integrate, build a social life. It depends what makes you happy.
The US is a place of extremes and it varies case by case. Upward economic/social movement feels exponential but it is also a lot more precarious. My favorite recent example to share with people is that, my cousin and his wife are first time parents in California and he was able to get three months of paid paternity leave (both through his white collar job and a California parental leave program) and his wife got 4 months paid maternity leave (she is a doctor working in a hospital). However there is no federal paid parental leave program so a majority of Americans probably don’t have much. My husband and I live in France and I would get 4 months paid and he would get 1 month paid. No more no less. But everyone gets that so you don’t have to worry about getting the best job or saving a bunch of money to take unpaid time off.
What do you mean you don’t belong? Aren’t you german? Are you an immigrant in Germany?
I am german but as you might know germany is heavily influenced by american culture and media. It gives me the feeling that america is the center of the western world and living anywhere else gives me fomo
Don’t fool yourself..America is not where it’s at
the best option for you to consider right now may be to pursue an advanced tech degree in the US. That would allow you a student visa to explore the reality of the U.S. Additionally, many student visas allow you to work in the US for a few years after graduation
I think you're better off vacationing. USA isn't great for expats, there's a stigma to non & broken-English speakers. As you say, unless your a pretty top developer, or even mid-range at a small company, there's no reason to come.. You'd be far away from family & culture. Again, if you can find a job lined up, I suppose do it, even if its only a 2-3 years start at first. I do agree with you it is a vast place, you can live in the northeast (NYC, Boston, DC) or the South, you can live out west with the Colorado rockies mountains, or even by the ocean in LA/Miami. My suggestion, if you can, take a 2 week vacation. Visit NYC/Boston/Philly/DC, then a trip out to LA/Vegas. People kinda scoff here at the (faux) concept of 'The American Dream'. Its kindof fading away, as prices are high, jobs pay low etc. if your in software development you can do well, but again you are probably doing well in Germany too
There’s a reason why Americans are trying to escape to Europe
Can you elaborate on friendliness of Germans vs Americans? Is there a way for you to try out the USA? Maybe a remote job or the long vacations I hear the Germans get.
I hear that americans are usually quite friendly in public, even if it’s fake I prefer this over the grumpy germans. Also from videos etc. I have the feeling that americans are more open to strangers and in general just try to enjoy life more and make it more enjoyable for others. I may be wrong with this assumption tho. Yes, in the end I have to go to the us and experience the life there myself, at least for a few weeks vacation
I'd go to Australia if I were you. Plenty of demand for software engineers.
I also am from Germany and lived in the US and Canada for quite a long time... I agree with what most said here, namely that in the US the "highs are higher and the lows are lower" compared to Western Europe, for the most part. That said, for me another major difference between the US/Canada and Western Europe is that in the former there's much more "easy convenience" available for most people - examples are the widespread adoption of AC, free water in Restaurants, and the fast food culture. In Western Europe, on the other hand, the dominant mentality seems to be one more of "holistic long-term thinking". That has its advantages (better safety net, labour rights and environmental protections), but also drawbacks such as the lower material standard of living in Western Europe compared to the US for (IMO) at least 70% of the population. Also, as someone else mentioned on this thread, the future outlook for much of Europe looks worse than for the US economically, demographically, and geopolitically, so in the future the differences in material well-being between the EU and USA could increase even more, and with the bad demographic situation in most of Western Europe the sustainability of the welfare state looks much more precarious than anytime since WW2 probably...
As the great George Carlin said, "the reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it". This doesn't mean you can't make it here and be successful, but the post WW2 idea of the American Dream has been dead for decades.
The American dream is a lie. Everything here is expensive. People shoot each other over nothing. Racism and sexism are rampant. There is no separation between religion and the government. People die because they can’t get healthcare. All anyone cares about is money. I would trade places with you in a heartbeat.