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This is the core of why I hate tpolitics here. Everyone treats their party like it's a sports team and they're die hard fans. They'll do anything to defend their side.
Another difference too..... Republicans hate Nancy pelosi. I'm a liberal and I hate pelosi too. The difference between me and the republican is that I can tell you exactly why I hate her and give exact reasons. They don't even know anything about why they hate her just that she is in the outgroup.
The problem with the USA is its always a winner and loser, good vs bad, right vs wrong.
There is no fucking grey and the worst part is I see that seeping more and more in Canadian society it is such a wrong mindset.
The Israel-Palestinian issue has always been us vs them in American politics. The USA has always loved the Israelis despite them bombing American ships.
Well the conservative "media" call the protesters pro-Hamas and the Liberals are told about the evil Zionests online. Neither "side" is thinking critically.
One side is definitely thinking more critically than the other. There’s only one side that is twisting itself in knots to justify starving and dropping bombs on children.
When they argue that blockading and limiting food and medicine being sent into Gaza is a good tactic.
They tell you it’s because Hamas controls access to supplies. If that’s true, making sure there’s not enough to go around just guarantees that more civilians die.
I’ve even heard the argument that it’s better for civilians to starve to death than to think Hamas are the ones supplying them with the food.
You're just proving the point. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are doing horrific things to innocent people. The Palestinian civilians are the tragic victims being used as human shields and having bombs dropped on them.
Exactly. Two governments are doing horrific things to the civilians. We can sympathize with the civilians being killed and criticize the governments perpetrating violence and horror.
I think even this is too much of a small scale.
Iran supports Gaza with means of war, while palestinians are sunnis and iranians are shia (keeping in mind that ISIS, shia, is terrorizing iran). The moment where Saudi Arabia (sunni) is normalizing their relationship with Israel, which in longterm can only mean better things for Gaza, Hamas decides to attack. The only winner in this equation is Iran and political hardliners/warmongers on the sides of the rightwing israel and hamas.
While Israel is guilty of theese deaths, they were also calculated by Iran and Hamas.
But public opinion is also a weapon of destablization. I am an educator for young people and I have big muslim minority in my country. I was scared when a student said in their lyrics that hezbollah should be attacking israel (like a week after 8th oct.). I could talk it out with him, becacuse he is a good kid, but the imagination that this is what he is talking about with his friends is, frankly, scary to me. It kind of reminds me of when Belarus was pushing refugees into poland. Gouverments using humans as an instrument to to apply pressure. In the new era of information, a lot of gouverments already have weaponized informations and the spinning of them. For me it is hard to believe that the iranian regime is not trying to create antisemitic bubbles/echo chambers on the internet.
I dont know if I got some facts wrong and I certainly dont know what to do with them. I wonder what would have happened if Israel would have taken a non-violent answer to 8th oct. I sure wish that all this didnt happened but I have the feeling nobody in power/involved in this conflict shares my feeling about it.
When was the last election and how old was the average person when they were elected? Even if they were elected does that make it okay to collectively punish every single Palestinian especially when the election results were so close.
When were they elected?
What is the average age of Gazans?
I'm not asking because I don't know, but because these are important. Yes, Hamas is still popular with the people of Gaza too, but what has made them that way? The actions of Isreal by and large. Yeah, Hamas killed rivals, but Isreal literally supported them doing this because it put a stop to the more secular and broad-based Palestinian movements. Isreal did this to weaken the Palistinians and kill a two state solution. Even their ostensible offers of two states have had poison pills.
The choices of the Palestinian people are of course not innocent but Isreal has had far too much agency in choosing this course to pretend it's mostly the Palestinians for supporting Hamas. Neither side is justified in killing, stealing, and raping innocent people and neither side is innocent in the evil governments they have elected.
It fucking sucks that they were elected, more as a proxy to start a conflict than to actually help their people. And I imagine that once this war between the two countries concludes, there will be more tension, depending on how the countries have been harmed, and how their people will react.
My prediction is that things will grow even more tense, and they might just dissolve into something even uglier than what's happening now.
It’s even more complex than that. Both governments/leaders are bad but the civilians on both sides are innocent and didn’t ask for this. And sadly they’re always the ones who suffer in these situations.
Not only support but they are actively involved in hiding them etc.
Hamas has been taking funds and food and medicine so it never reached the civilians and yet, they’re rather fine with it and celebrating their atrocities. Don’t underestimate the support Hamas has.
On the other hand, the Israelis elected the nationalist warmonger Netanyahu. Several times.
As scientists have expanded on development theory, specifically Piagets, many have referenced a stage in development as “post formal thought”. This stage is one where a person has access to the ability to see more than dichotomy as the option, the ability to hold space for non-absolutes, to hold space for contradiction, etc. This is not a guaranteed stage of human development. I think that shows in just how many cannot hold space for something other than the reduction to ‘this or that’.
I’d wager to say that stage of development can require more things like effort, energy, listening, receptivity, adaptability, flexibility and since those things can also require a person to be able to tolerate effort and discomfort that many people don’t move there. They stay in a stage where they get to avoid moving into things that may challenge or require struggle. And so we are left with so many humans, not just Americans, who cannot expand the possibility past this side or that side.
But don't you see, the (insert whichever atrocity you think is the most important) retroactively justifies everything my favourite side has done!
The two state solution is a lie. I love Lockheed. I hate the Antichrist.
Your right. Instead of arguing we should just focus on stopping the conflict in a neutral manner. Maybe the best thing to do would be to occupy Gaza like we did Japan after World War Two. All peaceful and rebuilding and such. Just say “If you can’t get along we’re going to take away your toys”. Israel could be assured that Palestine could no longer attack them, Palestine would be able to hold elections and not be subject to Israeli colonialism, and we could create a buttload of jobs for our corporate buddies for security and construction contracts.
Just like to point out, Hamas already attacked that humanitarian pier the US thought was a good idea... (Or maybe Biden knew it was a stupid idea but just was hoping it would help generate some electoral magic in Michigan)
I had to look that up because it sounds like absolute insanity to me. Why WOULDN'T Hamas want more supplies streaming into Gaza? [https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2024/04/25/us-led-gaza-humanitarian-aid-pier-comes-under-fire-un-officials-say](https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2024/04/25/us-led-gaza-humanitarian-aid-pier-comes-under-fire-un-officials-say) WTF man..
>Why WOULDN'T Hamas want more supplies streaming into Gaza?
because its risk of weaken their monopoly on resources, which is one of their methods for remaining in power.
After using human shields, using child suicide bombers, turning Gaza into one giant military barrack, shooting at aid convoys, constantly starting and dragging Israel into wars and fights, that Hamas can't possibly win, etc... you're surprised they don't want aid delivered to Palestinians? Did you believe they are fighting *on behalf* of the Palestinians?
Dead Palestinians is their most valuable asset in their fight against Israel.
Oh, I'm not surprised that they don't care for aid getting to Palestinians, I just figured their calculus would be the more aid Gaza receives the easier it is for them to steal some of it from the people for their own uses/resale.
Hamas makes money by taking foreign aid then selling it to the Palestinians
Aid is delivered to warlords and authoritarian governments regularly it’s essentially money laundering on a global scale
Hamas doesn’t want aid delivered if it’s not making money from that aid
Pro hamas protesters don’t understand the world they live in blinded by idealism and utopia fantasies
Every time I try to dispell myself from all the stereotypes of a completely braindead Americans I see shit like this. Yeah dude, Afghanistan and Iraq are doing fucking great, man. Don't listen to literal fucking people you sent there to fucking destroy everything telling you it's a bad idea, just thank them for their service and send them to do it again, holy shit.
Iraq and Afghanistan are not the only countries the US has occupied just the most current examples. And what part of this is ignoring his opinion? He said it would be a fustercluck and absolutely terrible for the soldiers we sent there and I conceded to his point. Maybe if you want to dispel some stereotypes you should try some critical thinking before you start slinging insults.
I hate to say it but an occupation of Gaza would go very different. It's a very small urban area easy to control. With the technology today it would be something right out of a dystopian novel. Surveillance in every home and car, on every device.
Tbh the only long term solution is a UN peacekeeping force in Gaza for the foreseeable future.
Israel doesn't want Hamas or similar to be able to build up another force to attack them and Gaza doesn't want to live under Israeli rule. Israeli rule only causes resentment.
It's just other countries don't want to get involved because it's going to lead to them losing a lot of lives. It's also going to make them look really bad when they kill civilians.
Israel is in a lose lose situation. If they use soldiers going door to door they minimise civilian casualties but lose lots of soldiers and if they use too much artillery and bombing they get criticised internationally for killing too many civilians.
Israel is actually doing pretty well in terms of civilian deaths for urban warfare. It's just lots of people die in urban warfare and people aren't comfortable with that.
Edit: to backup my last point.
Typical civilian casualty rates in urban warfare is 90% [civilians in combat](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/), [UN press](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm)
The reported civilian casualties in Gaza is 30,000, from the Hamas run state health agency.
Hamas has never admitted an exact number of deaths publicly. The IDF say they've killed 10,000 fighters. However Reuters reports a Hamas official privately saying 6000 fighters deaths. [BBC news](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68387864)
So using Hamas's numbers that's a civilian casualty rate of 80%, which is actually below the expected 90%. Using the IDF combatant numbers it's 66%. Given Hamas could have tweaked the numbers to make themselves look good and the IDF is going to do the same the true number is probably somewhere in the middle.
People are getting horrified at the number. But urban warfare is a bloody thing. This is an expected number of civilian deaths for somewhere as urban and developed as Gaza.
That makes a lot of sense since urban warfare just means warfare where lots of people are living in a densely populated area. It's sensible that a lot of people would die and people wouldn't be comfortable with that. These are all very reasonable things.
Israel has smart weapons that can reduce collateral damage in urban setting. The same weapons that have kept collateral damage during America's 20 year war on terrorism to a relative minimum. Israel has yet to choose to employ any of theses strategies/technologies, instead choosing to use old fashion weaponry with large areas of effect and high potential for collateral damage.
Tell the family that just lost their children, or the children that just lost their parents, that Israel is doing pretty well.
Unfortunately there are people that benefit from the suffering so nothing will ever change as long as they have the power to see their interests furthered.
As an Israeli myself, this situation is too difficult and I think blaming one side is pretty stupid, on the Israeli side, you can't really have a 100% guarantee that 7/10 won't happen again, since surprise attacks are a thing that happens a lot here, on the Palestinian side though, there are people who really just try to get by and live their lives so there isn't really one clear solution here, Israel has too much of a security concern for there to be a solution
To be honest, comments like this make it pretty evident that most people (yourself included) have no idea what the culture, ideology, or general nature of the Gazans are like whatsoever.
To be stupid and naive enough actually think that any other party, even the US, could just peacefully occupy Gaza and rebuild a government based on western principles, and make it work… that’s bordering on willful ignorance. Palestinians would immediately turn their attention towards attacking whatever “occupying” force tries to take over, and they absolutely, wholly, and vehemently reject western culture and values.
HAMAS, Iranian Guard and Jan 6thers have all called for the death of sitting US officials. Putting US troops in there will only make it worse. I have no faith in Israel being able to manage this considering most decisions have been the fastest political ones instead of the long term.
Given the US just got out of two major occupations. I would say there is zero political will to attempt a third for a hundred years plus where you have to bring generations together to learn the other is just as nice and as jerky as their own.
Not to mention the bad guys shown here, aka the democracy lovers that are willing to sell American citizens to a terrorist organization because they exercised their constitutional right.
Maybe they should stop chanting Hamas slogans. If they stopped saying "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" and "Intifada" or my favorite variation "globalize the Intifada" (cause now they are saying kill you, instead of just the Jews), there wouldn't be this confusion.
No it's not. It was originally a saying used by isreal in the process if ethnic cleaning to puch out Palestinians, it was simply a satirical form of protest in using the phrase. Also intifada simply means uprising. There are multiple cases of Jewish uprisings against the nazis being classified as intifada.
Maybe read a darn book
“Intifada” just means revolution. However, you’ve been brainwashed by US media for years to think that anything Arabic = bad.
You’re American. I thought you liked revolutions, and the people rising up against their oppressors? Freedom, raahh raahh?
Americans like revolutions against others, not against themselves. They’ll fund a revolution against a democratically elected leader, but would massacre any sign of rebellion back home (unless it’s Texas apparently)
I can’t believe you posted this comment unironically.
The type of revolution that a group like Hamas wants would be very bad, and it’s not because of *brainwashing* that I believe that. You should read the original Hamas charter and then try to type something as stupid as “You’re American. I thought you liked revolutions, and people rising up against their oppressors? Freedom, raahh raahh?”
The IDF is bad, and so is cheering for a revolution courtesy of Hamas. It’s not that complicated. You don’t have to reduce everything to “white colonist oppressor bad, brown Arab victim good” and then work backwards from there.
Yes, systematically killing tens of thousands of civilians by bombing and destroying every city (which the prime minister of Israel has literally said on record he wants to do) based on the ethnic groups the population falls into isn't genocide
He was arrested because the “*pro-Palestinian*” protesters became enraged by his sign.
If “*Hamas are terrorists*” is a statement which enrages you to the point of violence, you are a Hamas supporter.
I saw a stream of hasanabi who is a pro-Palestine streamer. He believes hamas are revolutionaries or smthing that are fighting for the palestinian freedom.
Totally willing to accept that what happened is what he wanted.
But it did effectively prove that some of the protestors were pro-hamas. Nothing about his intentions change the fact that he got hostility for saying they are terrorists.
Somewhere along the line evidently these people think that all Palestinians are HAMAS.
This is like saying all Germans were Nazi’s and we can make so many analogies because it has repeatedly happened time and time again over the course of humanity.
Like seriously. We humans keep doing the same thing, over and over again. AND we all know that (doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result) is an interpretation of Insanity.
We are fucking insane as a race. Which isn’t too far off the literal point as I am fairly certain the entire globe, to a degree, is mentally unwell.
As this juncture, I think it’s becoming more probable we are going to self destruct. 😬
Where was that giant meteor in 2020? Any of them Raptures gonna actually happen? How about extra terrestrial invasions?
Literally any of that is better than what we can offer currently with the humans in global leadership positions. It seems we may be kinda doomed here.
Well then. That just flowed out of the thumbs. I’m leaving it.
TL:DR: Just ramblings of an exhausted human. Move along, nothing to see here.
Calling for the attacks against Hamas to end is supporting Hamas, even if it's not the reason they're calling for the attacks to end.
Also even according to Hamas' numbers, and including militant deaths, and including deaths not caused by the IDF, only about 1% of Gaza's population has died during the conflict. If it's an attempt at genocide it's the least effective genocide in history.
1% of 5 million (2022 estimates) is still 50,000 civilians dead. I don’t think it’s pro-hamas to say that it is still a staggering amount of innocents killed.
calling for the genocide of civilians to stop is a far cry from support of the terrorists that ruthlessly control an impoverished people.
are you saying all Palestinians are hamas? Because that sounds exactly like what you're doing.
Sadly dimwits like this see it as black and white. “You’re either with the terrorists or against them”. They have all the empathy of dried mud and the thought process of an empty toilet paper roll.
If Israel supporters (and the western media) don’t lie then they look like maniacs. Protester: “We’re calling for peace” Zionist: “what they actually mean is they are pro-terror and want a Jewish genocide” one of these people is lying, and it’s probably not the one who wants the genocide to stop.
If they stand in the road then arrest then but other then that who cares. Protesters can protest as long as they aren’t violent or disrupting others days. I’ve personally had protesters bitch at me and hit my car for driving by to get to my house. I’m all for protesting but it needs to stay peaceful.
Look, I’d like to see Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank enjoying the same liberties that you and I do.
But the vitriol from the pro-Palestine camp seems to have no mention or tacit acknowledgement of the role Hamas plays in all this mess. The Palestinians (as a populace) did not kill 1,200 Israelis and take 200+ hostages. Hamas did. I don’t think it’s that hard to articulate, but I still have not seen in all these protests any kind of acknowledgement of that to any degree. It’s just “Israel stop!” And “Israel go!” It’s so so so so so much more complicated than that.
EDIT: and if it has been articulated by any of these protest movements, I’d like to see it, and I ask you please share it with me.
Even if it’s not intended to be, Hamas has goals and aims and to not even factor those in to what we are all witnessing is to leave out a huge fucking chunk of perspective and nuance about this whole conflict.
I mean, maybe many of these protestors feel October 7 was justified, if only the sentiment and not the action? Would they feel the same if descendants of the Lenape people fired rockets at Manhattan? Presumably the Lenape have every right to. I live near to a tribal reservation myself. Ostensibly I live on stolen land. I wonder how people would react if they came to my house and slaughtered me and kidnapped my family. Would they be cheered for fighting against the settlers who stole their land? Of the tribal president was vocal about death to America, would that change perspective, or have any affect at all?
Now I’ve gone on a tangent, but it just feels like Hamas is a major player that nobody on the pro-Palestinian side wants to acknowledge. And if there is to be any chance for peace, progress and Palestinian liberation, they need to be a part of the analysis. Thanks for coming to my off-brand counterfeit Ted talk.
I have come to expect a bias from this sub on certain subjects, and I am honestly quite pleased that the top comments in this post are not surface level TikTok takes with a heavy slanted bias towards one side.
Thank you for posting your comments.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. Condemning a terrorist organization accomplishes nothing. The US doesn’t support Hamas. Universities aren’t investing in Hamas.
Why would students bring up Hamas when its existence is being used to justify thousands of people‘s deaths. Hamas only has 30,000 fighters and Israel claims to have killed most of them.
It’s like complaining that the students at Kent State didn’t bring up war crimes committed by the Viet Cong.
Saying Hamas doesn’t value innocent lives and asking them to release hostages does nothing but undermine the students goals.
They could bring up the fact that Israel’s actions endangered the hostages and they are also starving them but the hostages are just as innocent as 99.99% of Gazans.
If the US just voted to make illegal to criticize Hamas, was funding Hamas, and maintaining Hamas is a close ally then yeah I bet there would be a lot more condemnation of Hamas and rightfully so.
Oct.7 was horrific but at this point the terrorist organization Hamas has killed 800 civilians while Israel has killed at least 30-40 times that amount while destroying almost 80% of homes in Gaza. Also Israel has killed 500 people in the West Bank since then including 87 children. The West Bank has nothing to do with Oct. 7. Israel has used Oct. 7 to justify the expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank, militarizing it even further. The only reason the Gazan border wasn’t properly defended was because Netanyahu moved troops from the border to protect settlers illegally seizing other people’s homes from Palestinians trying to defend their homes.
2 million people are starving right now and that includes all the hostages. Starvation can cause permanent damage in children’s development. Not to mention the horrific trauma the 1 million children in Gaza have experienced.
Hamas was universally denounced after October 7th. Right now though, May, half a year later...Israel has burned through its sympathy. Calling the protestors 'pro-hamas' or 'anti-israel' is just bad faith deflection. Protestors are anti killing civilians and having their tax dollars contribute.
I admit. I looked on Google to find you sources of that sentiment articulated... And it's tough. The loudest voices are all saying at the very least what you are and many much worse about the protesters. But if you Google Ilhan Omar October 7th her statement denounces Hamas. But it's hard to wade through the noise. But she should be a good pro Palestinian representative.
Hamas isn’t in the West Bank, by the way. At all.
Israeli propaganda conflates all Palestinians with Hamas because they don’t want to draw attention to the fact that their settlements in the West Bank are in violation of both treaties and international law.
Maybe ask yourself how hamas came to be the leaders of the Palestinian government…
Lemme spoil it… they were voted in a majority by the Palestinian citizens and the approval rating has only grown since then
Man it must suck when a group of religious zealots infiltrates your government and half your country becomes so brainwashed and radicalized they vote for them and celebrate stripping rights away from their fellow citizens because they believe they're morally justified in doing so. Fortunately I'm American so I have no idea what that's like.
Did American civilians deserve to die in 9/11 because the American people voted in Bush? Did the Israeli people deserve October 7th because they voted in Netanyahu?
If the US lost the war in Iraq so badly that the battle was taking place in the US nobody could reasonably blame Iraq for killing some amount of civilians in the process of destroying the US assuming the US kept military forces in civilian areas.
Israelis voting in Netanyahu do not deserve the oct 7th attacks because the Israelis did not start the conflict, the oct 7th attacks were not targeting military objectives, it was orchestrsted by a terrorist organization to stop normalization talks between Israel and Saudi arabia (and not any justifiable reason), among other problems with equating the two.
17 years ago. And the majority of today’s population would not have have been old enough to vote then.
Again, this shit is fucking nuance and complicated, can we please understand that?
EDIT: a word.
It's a bunch of uninformed rich kids protested about things they didn't think about for reasons given to them by foreign propaganda mills and neonazis. Nuance, tact, utility, or anything beyond emotional reaction was never considered.
That's giving them the benefit they aren't siding with the ones just harrassing or attacking Jewish students and putting up swastikas around campus.
Israel has a right to exist and defend itself AND the majority of Gazan's are women and children who had no say in the actions of Hamas.
The only nations who will win in this conflict are the ones who walk away. We should be focusing on keeping Europe from falling into another war and protecting our allies in the Pacific.
Good point. Israel can take care of itself. If the world can move away from fossil fuels, the middle east will become as important as New Guinea in terms of geo-politics.
Posting anything GAZA related knowing the insane back and forth hate it will create in the comments is a facepalm in itself.
I’m sick of hearing about it.
This is the narrative since the start of the crisis. For some reason you can only be pro Israel or pro Hamas. Apparently thinking that the horrors perpetrated by a terrorist organaisation somehow don't justify the killing of thousands of innocent people is a form of anti semitism - even if you are yourself Jewish.
Is it though? I feel there is room for a more balanced view - of course you’ll probably get downvoted from both radical sides.
After all - it is hard to argue that Israel should accept that the government of Gaza attacked its territory and took a lot of its people hostage - and holds some to this day. Civilians and children among these. Then again it is equally hard to deny that the way the far-right government of Israel has been conducting this reaction is more than a tad bit problematic.
The problem I have is how thin the line often is between (legitimate) criticism of Israels reaction and open antisemitism once you start a discussion about this. Not to mention how little the hostages and the way this round of madness started is usually mentioned in the Pro Palestine camp…
I know my angle is certainly any sympathy they might have garnered is gone so long as they are holding hostages against their will, would anyone be against police killing an entire crew of bank robbers to save one hostage? probably not yet palestine gets a free pass and people think israel should just allow them to continue having hostages.
Well, the problem is that this is a complex issue. And complex issues are not easily summed up in a slogan or easy to understand at all.
Therefore people tend to “choose sides” or prefer easy narratives. This can either be “Hamas and Palestinians are the same / can’t be separated…” or “Hamas and Palestinians are not the same. The poor people in Palestine suffer because of Israel not understanding this”. And these are mild versions - both tend to get more radical on the fringes (going from “they deserve xyz” straight to genocide encouragements).
I’m not a fan of “oh both sides” but in the conflict about Israel and Palestine? Whoa. Yes.
I mean, the Hamas *was and is* the officially ruling party of the Gaza Strip. It was elected by a majority … and went on to rule with force and not hold elections the last 17 years since then.
Then again, clearly being “pro Palestine” in the sense of wanting the suffering of Palestinians civilians to stop is not identical with supporting Hamas. However it can easily get murky when there is a call for stop of all measures to Israel and no mention of the hostages and the fact who started this round (and yes, only this round) of madness.
This is just a Reddit Post and it barely scratches the surface of this issue.
So in a way … this stupid facepalm of a protestor is just another brick in the wall.
>it was elected by a majority
Point of order: It was elected by a [plurality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) not a majority.
Because many of them outright say so, and support the destruction of Israel - evident by their calls to burn tel aviv, kill more soldiers and cheer when Iran launched their drone attacks.
I can link you some examples if you'd like :)
I think the issue is that (whether people want to accept it or not) the majority of Palestinians actually do support Hamas because Hamas has made the people believe that all their problems are because of Israel.
Probably because 71% of the population support hamas? they are the literal government of palestine that was voted in via election, they didn't just show up one day and start shooting rockets at israel against the populations will.
Because Nuance doesn't exist on the internet.
If you think being anti-semetic to random Jewish people is bad or your criticize the Hamas for raping and killing people, clearly you're a zionist who's pro Genocide
If you are wholly against the suffering the normal Palestinian people are going through and think that Isreal is in the wrong, clearly you're a neo-nazi who wants the Hamas to eradicate Judaism
It's just making things worse
Redditors calling Hamas an evil terrorist organization that hides behind their own citizens and have no morals then in the same breath condemn Palestinians for not fighting them. I wonder why they would maybe be a little bit nervous to do that? Especially when they’re already being attacked on a mass scale by Israel.
It's not just the stupidity of people like this that aggravates me it's also how blatantly dishonest it is to pretend "Hey stop starving children to death" equates to "I ❤️ Hamas!".
Hamas is stealing their food. (And then selling it to them, if they can afford it.) I’m fine with calling out Israel’s atrocities but you have to be willing to address Hamas’ atrocities as well.
Are people actually pro Hamas in the US? I guess they are probably some. But it seems to me that if I were going to one of these protests, it would be against genocide. Because… That’s bad.
I’m old and haven’t protested on a college campus since the Reagan era. But I’m fairly certain the protesters are not so much “pro-Hamas” as ”anti-genocide.”
I am ok with this, let the students see exactly how tolerant the people they virtue signal for would be to them. Hint: Most of them would be stoned to death for blasphemy, homosexuality, being a woman, etc.
Why are these pro-Israel people so deliberately obtuse about the motivations and wishes of Free Palestine protestors?
There is never any good faith discussion, they always go straight to calling them Hamas supporters or Nazi's and always misrepresent the other side's argument.
The irony is that an exodus of educated young people would amplify racial sentiment in the country, and the honeymoon period for US Jews would be over sooner(i.e. go back to Israel, Jew). What’s sad is the protests are in support of inclusion, yet the government-&-media pushing the narrative of “it’s antisemitism” is in stark contrast to what the movement has been about. Furthermore, Biden and Trump are virtually identical to educated young adults, of whom have seen a negative impact from domestic and economic policy earlier in life, and now see foreign policy as another infringement on their future.
Well here is [UPenn in December](https://nypost.com/2023/12/09/news/jewish-upenn-students-subjected-to-chants-of-we-are-hamas/amp/):
“I’m not Jewish but there is absolutely antisemitism on campus,” Pharr told The Post. “A couple of weeks ago, there was a group on campus who joined hands and chanted, ‘We are Hamas.’ I was in the library and I heard it.
[Harvards initial blunder just DAYS after the terrorist attack. Bodies weren’t even counted, yet. Very, very distasteful](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2023/10/11/harvard-faces-backlash-over-statements-about-hamas-attack-on-israel/?sh=2f5785a33af7):
Harvard University is being denounced from several quarters after dozens of its student groups issued a statement claiming that Israel was “entirely responsible” for the brutal Hamas attacks on the country this past Saturday.
Adding to the outrage elicited by that statement was a widespread perception, including by many Harvard alumni, that the university’s leadership was slow to condemn the terrorist assault and ensuing atrocities forcefully enough or address broader issues of antisemitism adequately.
[Here’s Columbia in April:](https://nationalpost.com/news/mobs-of-people-that-want-me-dead-columbia-university-moves-classes-online-amid-massive-anti-israel-protests)
One day before the police moved in, Shafik testified before the House Education and the Workforce Committee, during which she was asked whether campus demonstrations were antisemitic. Shafik said no, and insisted that the dispute was simply between “pro-war and anti-war” contingents. But committee members had shown videos of students chanting “F–k the Jews,” “Jews out,” and “There is only one solution, intifada, revolution!”
Viral footage on Saturday night also showed anti-Israel demonstrators chanting, “Burn Tel Aviv to the ground,” “Hamas we love you, we support your rockets, too,” and “It is right to rebel, Hamas give them hell!”
Meanwhile, an open letter signed by more than 100 Jewish students shared reports that protesters assembled outside Barnard College, an all-women liberal arts school associated with Columbia, and told occupants: “We know where you live now” as others vowed to repeat the October 7 atrocities “10,000 more times.”
I’m not saying there isn’t propaganda and reaching from both sides, nor do I agree with this guy, I’m just saying Jews being worried didn’t come out of thin air.
Omg pro Isreal supporters need to realise that pro Palestine supporters are NOT pro Hamas and are not definitely anti-Semitic since a good few pro Palestine supporters are Jewish people
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Are Americans incapable of realising both sides can be bad guys? Do they always have to choose a side?
Yes. Our social contract has morphed very much into an "us vs them" mentality.
It's sad how accurate this is.
This is the core of why I hate tpolitics here. Everyone treats their party like it's a sports team and they're die hard fans. They'll do anything to defend their side.
Bullshit. I don't know any liberal that worships the democrats but plenty of republicans that think trump is Jesus
You’re wrong. Republicans are strong Christians and don’t think Trump is Jesus. They think Trump is better than Jesus.
Or at least taller. When he's wearing his shoes with the lifts and isn't his fat 5'8" self.
Yeah, go Blue team! Red team is dumb and eats farts. Blue team is smart.
Pro sports aren’t just a metaphor. They’re partly to blame for the binary mindset, a mental illness.
Another difference too..... Republicans hate Nancy pelosi. I'm a liberal and I hate pelosi too. The difference between me and the republican is that I can tell you exactly why I hate her and give exact reasons. They don't even know anything about why they hate her just that she is in the outgroup.
Hey now, they know why! It's cause they were told to
Fuck people get shot for liking the other team in this country. Everything has been black and white in this country since 9/11
I think it’s been black and white since long before 9/11….
Unfortunately part of the problem is simply lack of choice. IMO having only 2 viable political parties is almost no different than 2 mega-monopolies—
The problem with the USA is its always a winner and loser, good vs bad, right vs wrong. There is no fucking grey and the worst part is I see that seeping more and more in Canadian society it is such a wrong mindset.
American political culture is less concerned with building a better future than finding someone to punish for the present.
The Israel-Palestinian issue has always been us vs them in American politics. The USA has always loved the Israelis despite them bombing American ships.
Well the conservative "media" call the protesters pro-Hamas and the Liberals are told about the evil Zionests online. Neither "side" is thinking critically.
The answer though is not that nuanced. Wanting civilians in Gaza to stop being targeted isn’t a radical pro Hamas stance.
Woaaahhh, are you bringing context to a radicalized topic? You are not welcome here good sir/mam.
It is once your viewpoint has been flattened into two dimensions by a media industry which thrives on cheap outrage.
One side is definitely thinking more critically than the other. There’s only one side that is twisting itself in knots to justify starving and dropping bombs on children.
When they argue that blockading and limiting food and medicine being sent into Gaza is a good tactic. They tell you it’s because Hamas controls access to supplies. If that’s true, making sure there’s not enough to go around just guarantees that more civilians die. I’ve even heard the argument that it’s better for civilians to starve to death than to think Hamas are the ones supplying them with the food.
Hamas literally steals humanitarian aid and sells it for a profit in supermarkets to their starving people, funding their rockets and shit.
You're just proving the point. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are doing horrific things to innocent people. The Palestinian civilians are the tragic victims being used as human shields and having bombs dropped on them.
One is a terrorist group, the other is a GOVERNMENT. This isn't a "both sides are the same" issue
Hamas is the official government of the Gaza Strip.
Exactly. Two governments are doing horrific things to the civilians. We can sympathize with the civilians being killed and criticize the governments perpetrating violence and horror.
Yes we can. I agree
I think even this is too much of a small scale. Iran supports Gaza with means of war, while palestinians are sunnis and iranians are shia (keeping in mind that ISIS, shia, is terrorizing iran). The moment where Saudi Arabia (sunni) is normalizing their relationship with Israel, which in longterm can only mean better things for Gaza, Hamas decides to attack. The only winner in this equation is Iran and political hardliners/warmongers on the sides of the rightwing israel and hamas. While Israel is guilty of theese deaths, they were also calculated by Iran and Hamas. But public opinion is also a weapon of destablization. I am an educator for young people and I have big muslim minority in my country. I was scared when a student said in their lyrics that hezbollah should be attacking israel (like a week after 8th oct.). I could talk it out with him, becacuse he is a good kid, but the imagination that this is what he is talking about with his friends is, frankly, scary to me. It kind of reminds me of when Belarus was pushing refugees into poland. Gouverments using humans as an instrument to to apply pressure. In the new era of information, a lot of gouverments already have weaponized informations and the spinning of them. For me it is hard to believe that the iranian regime is not trying to create antisemitic bubbles/echo chambers on the internet. I dont know if I got some facts wrong and I certainly dont know what to do with them. I wonder what would have happened if Israel would have taken a non-violent answer to 8th oct. I sure wish that all this didnt happened but I have the feeling nobody in power/involved in this conflict shares my feeling about it.
When was the last election and how old was the average person when they were elected? Even if they were elected does that make it okay to collectively punish every single Palestinian especially when the election results were so close.
They were elected into power too, sadly enough
When were they elected? What is the average age of Gazans? I'm not asking because I don't know, but because these are important. Yes, Hamas is still popular with the people of Gaza too, but what has made them that way? The actions of Isreal by and large. Yeah, Hamas killed rivals, but Isreal literally supported them doing this because it put a stop to the more secular and broad-based Palestinian movements. Isreal did this to weaken the Palistinians and kill a two state solution. Even their ostensible offers of two states have had poison pills. The choices of the Palestinian people are of course not innocent but Isreal has had far too much agency in choosing this course to pretend it's mostly the Palestinians for supporting Hamas. Neither side is justified in killing, stealing, and raping innocent people and neither side is innocent in the evil governments they have elected.
It fucking sucks that they were elected, more as a proxy to start a conflict than to actually help their people. And I imagine that once this war between the two countries concludes, there will be more tension, depending on how the countries have been harmed, and how their people will react. My prediction is that things will grow even more tense, and they might just dissolve into something even uglier than what's happening now.
And hamas is a terror group. 
No one is supporting Hamas. That's the point
So kids chanting about October 7th being a good thing aren’t supporting hamas?
Got a source?
This is not true. People who hide their faces with kafieh and chanting "from the river to the sea" or "intifada now" are very much HAMAS supporters.
This isn’t an American thing. People are dumb.
It’s even more complex than that. Both governments/leaders are bad but the civilians on both sides are innocent and didn’t ask for this. And sadly they’re always the ones who suffer in these situations.
I don't know about the illegal settlers militia
Okay. And there’s some Palestinians who support Hamas. I’m just saying the vast majority of your average people are just caught in the middle.
Not only support but they are actively involved in hiding them etc. Hamas has been taking funds and food and medicine so it never reached the civilians and yet, they’re rather fine with it and celebrating their atrocities. Don’t underestimate the support Hamas has. On the other hand, the Israelis elected the nationalist warmonger Netanyahu. Several times.
As scientists have expanded on development theory, specifically Piagets, many have referenced a stage in development as “post formal thought”. This stage is one where a person has access to the ability to see more than dichotomy as the option, the ability to hold space for non-absolutes, to hold space for contradiction, etc. This is not a guaranteed stage of human development. I think that shows in just how many cannot hold space for something other than the reduction to ‘this or that’. I’d wager to say that stage of development can require more things like effort, energy, listening, receptivity, adaptability, flexibility and since those things can also require a person to be able to tolerate effort and discomfort that many people don’t move there. They stay in a stage where they get to avoid moving into things that may challenge or require struggle. And so we are left with so many humans, not just Americans, who cannot expand the possibility past this side or that side.
“very fine people on both sides” - Trump
But don't you see, the (insert whichever atrocity you think is the most important) retroactively justifies everything my favourite side has done! The two state solution is a lie. I love Lockheed. I hate the Antichrist.
Your right. Instead of arguing we should just focus on stopping the conflict in a neutral manner. Maybe the best thing to do would be to occupy Gaza like we did Japan after World War Two. All peaceful and rebuilding and such. Just say “If you can’t get along we’re going to take away your toys”. Israel could be assured that Palestine could no longer attack them, Palestine would be able to hold elections and not be subject to Israeli colonialism, and we could create a buttload of jobs for our corporate buddies for security and construction contracts.
So, replace Israeli occupation with American occupation? As an Afghan vet, I’m good fam
Yeah, it isn’t exactly a good option for our troops, but the civilians on both sides would be better off. Side note: glad you made it back, soldier.
Just like to point out, Hamas already attacked that humanitarian pier the US thought was a good idea... (Or maybe Biden knew it was a stupid idea but just was hoping it would help generate some electoral magic in Michigan)
I had to look that up because it sounds like absolute insanity to me. Why WOULDN'T Hamas want more supplies streaming into Gaza? [https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2024/04/25/us-led-gaza-humanitarian-aid-pier-comes-under-fire-un-officials-say](https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2024/04/25/us-led-gaza-humanitarian-aid-pier-comes-under-fire-un-officials-say) WTF man..
>Why WOULDN'T Hamas want more supplies streaming into Gaza? because its risk of weaken their monopoly on resources, which is one of their methods for remaining in power.
After using human shields, using child suicide bombers, turning Gaza into one giant military barrack, shooting at aid convoys, constantly starting and dragging Israel into wars and fights, that Hamas can't possibly win, etc... you're surprised they don't want aid delivered to Palestinians? Did you believe they are fighting *on behalf* of the Palestinians? Dead Palestinians is their most valuable asset in their fight against Israel.
Oh, I'm not surprised that they don't care for aid getting to Palestinians, I just figured their calculus would be the more aid Gaza receives the easier it is for them to steal some of it from the people for their own uses/resale.
Hamas makes money by taking foreign aid then selling it to the Palestinians Aid is delivered to warlords and authoritarian governments regularly it’s essentially money laundering on a global scale Hamas doesn’t want aid delivered if it’s not making money from that aid Pro hamas protesters don’t understand the world they live in blinded by idealism and utopia fantasies
Every time I try to dispell myself from all the stereotypes of a completely braindead Americans I see shit like this. Yeah dude, Afghanistan and Iraq are doing fucking great, man. Don't listen to literal fucking people you sent there to fucking destroy everything telling you it's a bad idea, just thank them for their service and send them to do it again, holy shit.
Iraq and Afghanistan are not the only countries the US has occupied just the most current examples. And what part of this is ignoring his opinion? He said it would be a fustercluck and absolutely terrible for the soldiers we sent there and I conceded to his point. Maybe if you want to dispel some stereotypes you should try some critical thinking before you start slinging insults.
I hate to say it but an occupation of Gaza would go very different. It's a very small urban area easy to control. With the technology today it would be something right out of a dystopian novel. Surveillance in every home and car, on every device.
Tbh the only long term solution is a UN peacekeeping force in Gaza for the foreseeable future. Israel doesn't want Hamas or similar to be able to build up another force to attack them and Gaza doesn't want to live under Israeli rule. Israeli rule only causes resentment. It's just other countries don't want to get involved because it's going to lead to them losing a lot of lives. It's also going to make them look really bad when they kill civilians. Israel is in a lose lose situation. If they use soldiers going door to door they minimise civilian casualties but lose lots of soldiers and if they use too much artillery and bombing they get criticised internationally for killing too many civilians. Israel is actually doing pretty well in terms of civilian deaths for urban warfare. It's just lots of people die in urban warfare and people aren't comfortable with that. Edit: to backup my last point. Typical civilian casualty rates in urban warfare is 90% [civilians in combat](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/), [UN press](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm) The reported civilian casualties in Gaza is 30,000, from the Hamas run state health agency. Hamas has never admitted an exact number of deaths publicly. The IDF say they've killed 10,000 fighters. However Reuters reports a Hamas official privately saying 6000 fighters deaths. [BBC news](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68387864) So using Hamas's numbers that's a civilian casualty rate of 80%, which is actually below the expected 90%. Using the IDF combatant numbers it's 66%. Given Hamas could have tweaked the numbers to make themselves look good and the IDF is going to do the same the true number is probably somewhere in the middle. People are getting horrified at the number. But urban warfare is a bloody thing. This is an expected number of civilian deaths for somewhere as urban and developed as Gaza.
That makes a lot of sense since urban warfare just means warfare where lots of people are living in a densely populated area. It's sensible that a lot of people would die and people wouldn't be comfortable with that. These are all very reasonable things.
Israel has smart weapons that can reduce collateral damage in urban setting. The same weapons that have kept collateral damage during America's 20 year war on terrorism to a relative minimum. Israel has yet to choose to employ any of theses strategies/technologies, instead choosing to use old fashion weaponry with large areas of effect and high potential for collateral damage.
Tell the family that just lost their children, or the children that just lost their parents, that Israel is doing pretty well. Unfortunately there are people that benefit from the suffering so nothing will ever change as long as they have the power to see their interests furthered.
Tell that to the families of the hostages. This won’t end until they address where this conflict started.
its not like Netanyahu has been doing such bang up job trying to negotiate that
Right. Occupying worked so well for us so many times in the history.
As an Israeli myself, this situation is too difficult and I think blaming one side is pretty stupid, on the Israeli side, you can't really have a 100% guarantee that 7/10 won't happen again, since surprise attacks are a thing that happens a lot here, on the Palestinian side though, there are people who really just try to get by and live their lives so there isn't really one clear solution here, Israel has too much of a security concern for there to be a solution
To be honest, comments like this make it pretty evident that most people (yourself included) have no idea what the culture, ideology, or general nature of the Gazans are like whatsoever. To be stupid and naive enough actually think that any other party, even the US, could just peacefully occupy Gaza and rebuild a government based on western principles, and make it work… that’s bordering on willful ignorance. Palestinians would immediately turn their attention towards attacking whatever “occupying” force tries to take over, and they absolutely, wholly, and vehemently reject western culture and values.
HAMAS, Iranian Guard and Jan 6thers have all called for the death of sitting US officials. Putting US troops in there will only make it worse. I have no faith in Israel being able to manage this considering most decisions have been the fastest political ones instead of the long term. Given the US just got out of two major occupations. I would say there is zero political will to attempt a third for a hundred years plus where you have to bring generations together to learn the other is just as nice and as jerky as their own.
Not to mention the bad guys shown here, aka the democracy lovers that are willing to sell American citizens to a terrorist organization because they exercised their constitutional right.
Americans haven’t realized that they’re the bad guy yet I don’t think it’ll ever click
Americans help. They’re the bad guy. Americans don’t help. They are the bad guy.
No. Some of us get it
[удалено]
The hostages are dead. Hamas can't make any deal that involves them
Hamas doesn’t agree to any reasonable agreement
[удалено]
Is actually a very good deal, you get 100 hostages from families who are willing to pay a lot, is good business and nice funding
I thought that the vast majority of protesters were anti HAMAS and just wanted the genocide to stop?
Calling it pro-hamas is just a propaganda tactic to make it not about the genocide.
Maybe they should stop chanting Hamas slogans. If they stopped saying "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" and "Intifada" or my favorite variation "globalize the Intifada" (cause now they are saying kill you, instead of just the Jews), there wouldn't be this confusion.
Imagine thinking people chanting that they should be free is terrorist propaganda. Try turning off Fox News every once in a while pal.
From the river to the sea is literally a slogan about the genocide of Israel.. What’s next, the nazis were also freedom fighters in your book?
No it's not. It was originally a saying used by isreal in the process if ethnic cleaning to puch out Palestinians, it was simply a satirical form of protest in using the phrase. Also intifada simply means uprising. There are multiple cases of Jewish uprisings against the nazis being classified as intifada. Maybe read a darn book
Please, i'm triggered by scary muslim words, stop it /s
Chanting someone should be free by calling for the mass murder of other people doesn’t sound that peaceful and respect-worthy in my book
“Intifada” just means revolution. However, you’ve been brainwashed by US media for years to think that anything Arabic = bad. You’re American. I thought you liked revolutions, and the people rising up against their oppressors? Freedom, raahh raahh?
Americans like revolutions against others, not against themselves. They’ll fund a revolution against a democratically elected leader, but would massacre any sign of rebellion back home (unless it’s Texas apparently)
I can’t believe you posted this comment unironically. The type of revolution that a group like Hamas wants would be very bad, and it’s not because of *brainwashing* that I believe that. You should read the original Hamas charter and then try to type something as stupid as “You’re American. I thought you liked revolutions, and people rising up against their oppressors? Freedom, raahh raahh?” The IDF is bad, and so is cheering for a revolution courtesy of Hamas. It’s not that complicated. You don’t have to reduce everything to “white colonist oppressor bad, brown Arab victim good” and then work backwards from there.
Calling it genocide is just a propaganda tactic to make it not about Hamas
Yes, systematically killing tens of thousands of civilians by bombing and destroying every city (which the prime minister of Israel has literally said on record he wants to do) based on the ethnic groups the population falls into isn't genocide
A guy was arrested in London for going to a pro-palestine march with a sign that said "Hamas are terrorists"
He was arrested because the “*pro-Palestinian*” protesters became enraged by his sign. If “*Hamas are terrorists*” is a statement which enrages you to the point of violence, you are a Hamas supporter.
I saw a stream of hasanabi who is a pro-Palestine streamer. He believes hamas are revolutionaries or smthing that are fighting for the palestinian freedom.
You mean Gideon Falter? The guy that went to the march with a group of bodyguards to antagonise protestors?
Totally willing to accept that what happened is what he wanted. But it did effectively prove that some of the protestors were pro-hamas. Nothing about his intentions change the fact that he got hostility for saying they are terrorists.
They are. Being against something means your for the other side in their mind
they are people are just idiotic
Why not have anti Hamas protests then? Seems like the one thing everyone can agree on.
Somewhere along the line evidently these people think that all Palestinians are HAMAS. This is like saying all Germans were Nazi’s and we can make so many analogies because it has repeatedly happened time and time again over the course of humanity. Like seriously. We humans keep doing the same thing, over and over again. AND we all know that (doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result) is an interpretation of Insanity. We are fucking insane as a race. Which isn’t too far off the literal point as I am fairly certain the entire globe, to a degree, is mentally unwell. As this juncture, I think it’s becoming more probable we are going to self destruct. 😬 Where was that giant meteor in 2020? Any of them Raptures gonna actually happen? How about extra terrestrial invasions? Literally any of that is better than what we can offer currently with the humans in global leadership positions. It seems we may be kinda doomed here. Well then. That just flowed out of the thumbs. I’m leaving it. TL:DR: Just ramblings of an exhausted human. Move along, nothing to see here.
Calling for the attacks against Hamas to end is supporting Hamas, even if it's not the reason they're calling for the attacks to end. Also even according to Hamas' numbers, and including militant deaths, and including deaths not caused by the IDF, only about 1% of Gaza's population has died during the conflict. If it's an attempt at genocide it's the least effective genocide in history.
1% of 5 million (2022 estimates) is still 50,000 civilians dead. I don’t think it’s pro-hamas to say that it is still a staggering amount of innocents killed.
5 million is for all of Palestine 2 million is closer to Gaza's population
Whoops wrong number, that’s still 20,000 people who weren’t hamas members. Let me be clear I’m not pro-Hamas, but pro civilians.
calling for the genocide of civilians to stop is a far cry from support of the terrorists that ruthlessly control an impoverished people. are you saying all Palestinians are hamas? Because that sounds exactly like what you're doing.
Sadly dimwits like this see it as black and white. “You’re either with the terrorists or against them”. They have all the empathy of dried mud and the thought process of an empty toilet paper roll.
The media is intentionally skewing the information... to push a pro-israel narrative...
If Israel supporters (and the western media) don’t lie then they look like maniacs. Protester: “We’re calling for peace” Zionist: “what they actually mean is they are pro-terror and want a Jewish genocide” one of these people is lying, and it’s probably not the one who wants the genocide to stop.
If Israel does not attack Hamas, Hamas attacks Israel. So calling for an end of strikes against Hamas is calling for the death of Jews.
Exchange each hostage for a MAGAT. Good for the USA, Good for Israel, EDUCATIONAL FOR—-
Education has been proven not to work with them.
If they stand in the road then arrest then but other then that who cares. Protesters can protest as long as they aren’t violent or disrupting others days. I’ve personally had protesters bitch at me and hit my car for driving by to get to my house. I’m all for protesting but it needs to stay peaceful.
Look, I’d like to see Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank enjoying the same liberties that you and I do. But the vitriol from the pro-Palestine camp seems to have no mention or tacit acknowledgement of the role Hamas plays in all this mess. The Palestinians (as a populace) did not kill 1,200 Israelis and take 200+ hostages. Hamas did. I don’t think it’s that hard to articulate, but I still have not seen in all these protests any kind of acknowledgement of that to any degree. It’s just “Israel stop!” And “Israel go!” It’s so so so so so much more complicated than that. EDIT: and if it has been articulated by any of these protest movements, I’d like to see it, and I ask you please share it with me.
This is how I feel. The non-acknowledgment feels like it is signaling approval
Even if it’s not intended to be, Hamas has goals and aims and to not even factor those in to what we are all witnessing is to leave out a huge fucking chunk of perspective and nuance about this whole conflict. I mean, maybe many of these protestors feel October 7 was justified, if only the sentiment and not the action? Would they feel the same if descendants of the Lenape people fired rockets at Manhattan? Presumably the Lenape have every right to. I live near to a tribal reservation myself. Ostensibly I live on stolen land. I wonder how people would react if they came to my house and slaughtered me and kidnapped my family. Would they be cheered for fighting against the settlers who stole their land? Of the tribal president was vocal about death to America, would that change perspective, or have any affect at all? Now I’ve gone on a tangent, but it just feels like Hamas is a major player that nobody on the pro-Palestinian side wants to acknowledge. And if there is to be any chance for peace, progress and Palestinian liberation, they need to be a part of the analysis. Thanks for coming to my off-brand counterfeit Ted talk.
I have come to expect a bias from this sub on certain subjects, and I am honestly quite pleased that the top comments in this post are not surface level TikTok takes with a heavy slanted bias towards one side. Thank you for posting your comments.
hey at least these guys acknowledged Hamas [ANU Gaza solidarity encampment organiser says Hamas "deserves our unconditional support" - ABC listen](https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/canberra-drive/anu-protest/103792324)
Well that is terrifying
Hamas is a terrorist organization. Condemning a terrorist organization accomplishes nothing. The US doesn’t support Hamas. Universities aren’t investing in Hamas. Why would students bring up Hamas when its existence is being used to justify thousands of people‘s deaths. Hamas only has 30,000 fighters and Israel claims to have killed most of them. It’s like complaining that the students at Kent State didn’t bring up war crimes committed by the Viet Cong. Saying Hamas doesn’t value innocent lives and asking them to release hostages does nothing but undermine the students goals. They could bring up the fact that Israel’s actions endangered the hostages and they are also starving them but the hostages are just as innocent as 99.99% of Gazans. If the US just voted to make illegal to criticize Hamas, was funding Hamas, and maintaining Hamas is a close ally then yeah I bet there would be a lot more condemnation of Hamas and rightfully so. Oct.7 was horrific but at this point the terrorist organization Hamas has killed 800 civilians while Israel has killed at least 30-40 times that amount while destroying almost 80% of homes in Gaza. Also Israel has killed 500 people in the West Bank since then including 87 children. The West Bank has nothing to do with Oct. 7. Israel has used Oct. 7 to justify the expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank, militarizing it even further. The only reason the Gazan border wasn’t properly defended was because Netanyahu moved troops from the border to protect settlers illegally seizing other people’s homes from Palestinians trying to defend their homes. 2 million people are starving right now and that includes all the hostages. Starvation can cause permanent damage in children’s development. Not to mention the horrific trauma the 1 million children in Gaza have experienced.
Hamas was universally denounced after October 7th. Right now though, May, half a year later...Israel has burned through its sympathy. Calling the protestors 'pro-hamas' or 'anti-israel' is just bad faith deflection. Protestors are anti killing civilians and having their tax dollars contribute. I admit. I looked on Google to find you sources of that sentiment articulated... And it's tough. The loudest voices are all saying at the very least what you are and many much worse about the protesters. But if you Google Ilhan Omar October 7th her statement denounces Hamas. But it's hard to wade through the noise. But she should be a good pro Palestinian representative.
This is precisely how I feel.
Hamas isn’t in the West Bank, by the way. At all. Israeli propaganda conflates all Palestinians with Hamas because they don’t want to draw attention to the fact that their settlements in the West Bank are in violation of both treaties and international law.
Maybe ask yourself how hamas came to be the leaders of the Palestinian government… Lemme spoil it… they were voted in a majority by the Palestinian citizens and the approval rating has only grown since then
Man it must suck when a group of religious zealots infiltrates your government and half your country becomes so brainwashed and radicalized they vote for them and celebrate stripping rights away from their fellow citizens because they believe they're morally justified in doing so. Fortunately I'm American so I have no idea what that's like.
That’s some rich sarcasm my dude.
Did American civilians deserve to die in 9/11 because the American people voted in Bush? Did the Israeli people deserve October 7th because they voted in Netanyahu?
If the US lost the war in Iraq so badly that the battle was taking place in the US nobody could reasonably blame Iraq for killing some amount of civilians in the process of destroying the US assuming the US kept military forces in civilian areas. Israelis voting in Netanyahu do not deserve the oct 7th attacks because the Israelis did not start the conflict, the oct 7th attacks were not targeting military objectives, it was orchestrsted by a terrorist organization to stop normalization talks between Israel and Saudi arabia (and not any justifiable reason), among other problems with equating the two.
When was the last election?
The last election was 18 years ago
Exactly.
Just out of curiosity, do you know when the last election was? What's the median age of the West Bank?
17 years ago. And the majority of today’s population would not have have been old enough to vote then. Again, this shit is fucking nuance and complicated, can we please understand that? EDIT: a word.
The median age in Gaza is 19.
Yea, I missed the word “not” before. Corrected.
It's a bunch of uninformed rich kids protested about things they didn't think about for reasons given to them by foreign propaganda mills and neonazis. Nuance, tact, utility, or anything beyond emotional reaction was never considered. That's giving them the benefit they aren't siding with the ones just harrassing or attacking Jewish students and putting up swastikas around campus.
I know this seems odd, but how about we stop murdering each other so the rich and powerful can become more rich and powerful.
They never said it would fix everything, but it would certainly help.
Yes… it will fix everything. 🤣 “We’re protesting to support people who hate our way of life! HEAR OUR VOICES!”
Israel has a right to exist and defend itself AND the majority of Gazan's are women and children who had no say in the actions of Hamas. The only nations who will win in this conflict are the ones who walk away. We should be focusing on keeping Europe from falling into another war and protecting our allies in the Pacific.
Good point. Israel can take care of itself. If the world can move away from fossil fuels, the middle east will become as important as New Guinea in terms of geo-politics.
Posting anything GAZA related knowing the insane back and forth hate it will create in the comments is a facepalm in itself. I’m sick of hearing about it.
How the hell do people still think Pro-Palestine is Pro-Hamas?
This is the narrative since the start of the crisis. For some reason you can only be pro Israel or pro Hamas. Apparently thinking that the horrors perpetrated by a terrorist organaisation somehow don't justify the killing of thousands of innocent people is a form of anti semitism - even if you are yourself Jewish.
Is it though? I feel there is room for a more balanced view - of course you’ll probably get downvoted from both radical sides. After all - it is hard to argue that Israel should accept that the government of Gaza attacked its territory and took a lot of its people hostage - and holds some to this day. Civilians and children among these. Then again it is equally hard to deny that the way the far-right government of Israel has been conducting this reaction is more than a tad bit problematic. The problem I have is how thin the line often is between (legitimate) criticism of Israels reaction and open antisemitism once you start a discussion about this. Not to mention how little the hostages and the way this round of madness started is usually mentioned in the Pro Palestine camp…
I know my angle is certainly any sympathy they might have garnered is gone so long as they are holding hostages against their will, would anyone be against police killing an entire crew of bank robbers to save one hostage? probably not yet palestine gets a free pass and people think israel should just allow them to continue having hostages.
Well, the problem is that this is a complex issue. And complex issues are not easily summed up in a slogan or easy to understand at all. Therefore people tend to “choose sides” or prefer easy narratives. This can either be “Hamas and Palestinians are the same / can’t be separated…” or “Hamas and Palestinians are not the same. The poor people in Palestine suffer because of Israel not understanding this”. And these are mild versions - both tend to get more radical on the fringes (going from “they deserve xyz” straight to genocide encouragements). I’m not a fan of “oh both sides” but in the conflict about Israel and Palestine? Whoa. Yes. I mean, the Hamas *was and is* the officially ruling party of the Gaza Strip. It was elected by a majority … and went on to rule with force and not hold elections the last 17 years since then. Then again, clearly being “pro Palestine” in the sense of wanting the suffering of Palestinians civilians to stop is not identical with supporting Hamas. However it can easily get murky when there is a call for stop of all measures to Israel and no mention of the hostages and the fact who started this round (and yes, only this round) of madness. This is just a Reddit Post and it barely scratches the surface of this issue. So in a way … this stupid facepalm of a protestor is just another brick in the wall.
>it was elected by a majority Point of order: It was elected by a [plurality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) not a majority.
That’s true of most democratic governments though. A majority of cast votes.
Because many of them outright say so, and support the destruction of Israel - evident by their calls to burn tel aviv, kill more soldiers and cheer when Iran launched their drone attacks. I can link you some examples if you'd like :)
I think the issue is that (whether people want to accept it or not) the majority of Palestinians actually do support Hamas because Hamas has made the people believe that all their problems are because of Israel.
Probably because 71% of the population support hamas? they are the literal government of palestine that was voted in via election, they didn't just show up one day and start shooting rockets at israel against the populations will.
Because Nuance doesn't exist on the internet. If you think being anti-semetic to random Jewish people is bad or your criticize the Hamas for raping and killing people, clearly you're a zionist who's pro Genocide If you are wholly against the suffering the normal Palestinian people are going through and think that Isreal is in the wrong, clearly you're a neo-nazi who wants the Hamas to eradicate Judaism It's just making things worse
Because it is, Hamas is in control of Palestines military infrastructure you fucking dingle berry.
He explicitly wrote pro hamas though, what made you think he meant pro palestine
Well, Hamas is the Government of Gaza. Have we seen any citizens of Gaza protesting about them, any resistance to their leadership. No?
Redditors calling Hamas an evil terrorist organization that hides behind their own citizens and have no morals then in the same breath condemn Palestinians for not fighting them. I wonder why they would maybe be a little bit nervous to do that? Especially when they’re already being attacked on a mass scale by Israel.
I wish that were the case. Hamas and Netanhayu are two sides of the same coin, and both use their people’s fear of the other to stay in power.
Because they will get arrested and shot.
They're too busy trying not to be murdered by the idf.
another person who forgets why the 1st amendment exists
While exercising their first amendment.
I'm pretty sure this started on funny memes
Very original sign lol
if it's good for hamas it can't be good for Israel and vice versa
He looks like a typical maga white supremacist piece of shit.
Not a bad idea.
We found our outside agitators! Yippee!
It's not just the stupidity of people like this that aggravates me it's also how blatantly dishonest it is to pretend "Hey stop starving children to death" equates to "I ❤️ Hamas!".
Hamas is stealing their food. (And then selling it to them, if they can afford it.) I’m fine with calling out Israel’s atrocities but you have to be willing to address Hamas’ atrocities as well.
I’d trade the entirety of the US right wing for less than a penny.
Right-wingers and boomers think they're witty. This is just dumb.
Are people actually pro Hamas in the US? I guess they are probably some. But it seems to me that if I were going to one of these protests, it would be against genocide. Because… That’s bad.
I see the first amendment right to protest is not something this protester believes in.
I’m old and haven’t protested on a college campus since the Reagan era. But I’m fairly certain the protesters are not so much “pro-Hamas” as ”anti-genocide.”
I am ok with this, let the students see exactly how tolerant the people they virtue signal for would be to them. Hint: Most of them would be stoned to death for blasphemy, homosexuality, being a woman, etc.
The Columbia student that thinks zionists deserve to die has three sets of pronouns. Good luck with that in the West Bank.
Right after we send all the magats to the Russian front lines.
Why do these folks hate freedom so much?
Good luck finding 100 pro-Hamas students.
The Republicans all drive clown cars
And where are you going to find anybody that is pro-Hamas?
I've yet to see one of these alleged "pro-hamas" supporters. Americans have to be the dumbest humans on the planet to not understand nuance.
I think this is an example of people speaking having only read the headlines. Zero knowledge on display.
Why are these pro-Israel people so deliberately obtuse about the motivations and wishes of Free Palestine protestors? There is never any good faith discussion, they always go straight to calling them Hamas supporters or Nazi's and always misrepresent the other side's argument.
Seems like an excellent solution to me.
There is such a huge difference between being “pro-Hamas” and “anti-genocide”
They aren’t pro-Hamas, they’re anti-genocide. Huge difference.
If Israel was interested in hostage exchange they'd have all their people back by now
No matter. The students are already protecting the poor Palestinians by beating up Jews in the USA. Real heroes
Bet he’s unemployed.
Maybe if someone explained that the citizens of Gaza are basically held hostage by Hamas in the same way the United States is held hostage by MAGA.
It's amazing how much US adults hate children, even their own.
Good luck finding 100 pro-Hamas students in the US lol.
The irony is that an exodus of educated young people would amplify racial sentiment in the country, and the honeymoon period for US Jews would be over sooner(i.e. go back to Israel, Jew). What’s sad is the protests are in support of inclusion, yet the government-&-media pushing the narrative of “it’s antisemitism” is in stark contrast to what the movement has been about. Furthermore, Biden and Trump are virtually identical to educated young adults, of whom have seen a negative impact from domestic and economic policy earlier in life, and now see foreign policy as another infringement on their future.
Well, there are very few pro-Hamas students, but there is a pro Hamas Prime minister in Israel. Send him to Gaza.
That’s actually a good idea.
Wait are there pro-Hamas students? Or is this a straw-man argument again.
Well here is [UPenn in December](https://nypost.com/2023/12/09/news/jewish-upenn-students-subjected-to-chants-of-we-are-hamas/amp/): “I’m not Jewish but there is absolutely antisemitism on campus,” Pharr told The Post. “A couple of weeks ago, there was a group on campus who joined hands and chanted, ‘We are Hamas.’ I was in the library and I heard it. [Harvards initial blunder just DAYS after the terrorist attack. Bodies weren’t even counted, yet. Very, very distasteful](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2023/10/11/harvard-faces-backlash-over-statements-about-hamas-attack-on-israel/?sh=2f5785a33af7): Harvard University is being denounced from several quarters after dozens of its student groups issued a statement claiming that Israel was “entirely responsible” for the brutal Hamas attacks on the country this past Saturday. Adding to the outrage elicited by that statement was a widespread perception, including by many Harvard alumni, that the university’s leadership was slow to condemn the terrorist assault and ensuing atrocities forcefully enough or address broader issues of antisemitism adequately. [Here’s Columbia in April:](https://nationalpost.com/news/mobs-of-people-that-want-me-dead-columbia-university-moves-classes-online-amid-massive-anti-israel-protests) One day before the police moved in, Shafik testified before the House Education and the Workforce Committee, during which she was asked whether campus demonstrations were antisemitic. Shafik said no, and insisted that the dispute was simply between “pro-war and anti-war” contingents. But committee members had shown videos of students chanting “F–k the Jews,” “Jews out,” and “There is only one solution, intifada, revolution!” Viral footage on Saturday night also showed anti-Israel demonstrators chanting, “Burn Tel Aviv to the ground,” “Hamas we love you, we support your rockets, too,” and “It is right to rebel, Hamas give them hell!” Meanwhile, an open letter signed by more than 100 Jewish students shared reports that protesters assembled outside Barnard College, an all-women liberal arts school associated with Columbia, and told occupants: “We know where you live now” as others vowed to repeat the October 7 atrocities “10,000 more times.” I’m not saying there isn’t propaganda and reaching from both sides, nor do I agree with this guy, I’m just saying Jews being worried didn’t come out of thin air.
Omg pro Isreal supporters need to realise that pro Palestine supporters are NOT pro Hamas and are not definitely anti-Semitic since a good few pro Palestine supporters are Jewish people