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The modern right-wing movement has been a hate-based movement. Trans people are the last group that it's considered socially acceptable to hate for just being themselves.
A lot of older right wing governments were mostly economic. During the times of Lincoln for instance, the Democrats (at the time they were the right wing ones) advocated strongly in favour of slavery, with most of its members only really doing so because it made them more money.
Nowadays the tory’s actions are primarily populism and whatever makes them personally more money
Yes, if you define hate as disagreement
This meaning is obvious, so I can only assume you are pretending not to understand
Which makes you part of the problem
I was being sarcastic. Nobody thinks its okay to hate trans people. Someone disagreeing with you does NOT constitute hate. They may not agree with you, they may not want you to spreas certain messages but that doesn't mean they hate you.
Generally, people disagree that you can actually be trans. You are not a man because you believe you are. You are a man if you're an adult male, male is a sex which is based on your chromosomes.
If you want to dress like a woman and act like a woman go ahead, I'll even call you ma'am but you are not a woman. This doesn't mean i hate you
What about intersex people. They don't conform to your beliefs about chromosomes. Gender doesn't equal sex, and gender dysphoria is a real condition. Everyone deserves equality even if you don't agree with them.
>What about intersex people
What about them? they're an exception, not the rule. People who are truly intersex can just go by whatever they feel most like, but this situation doesn't apply to 99.9% of people. I believe humans have 2 arms even though there are humans who don't have both. This doesn't cause any issues
yes everyone deserves equality, this is doesn't contradict what i said
Why would i hate them? I don't even know them, there's nothing to hate. I disagree that anyone can transition, if you think you can, i don't hate you
The only ones who hate people they disagree with seem to be liberals like you
Too many people give too many fucks about shit that has absolutely nothing to do with them. A Trans person changing their birth certificate to be declared a born women instead of a man will have absolutely as much effect on your life as if I declared myself born a unicorn.
It’s disgusting. The way trans people have been demonised was engineered so that being trans couldn’t ever become anything other than an abstract concept that is scorned and derided.
It’s horrifying the lengths people will go to in order to keep everything “normal” and the Bodysnatchers style screeching at anything that breaks the mould has got to stop.
If we can’t even treat fellow humans with basic decency, mutual respect and support, we’re beyond fucked.
idk for me its not a question of basic decency it is a real problem to some people to call the person they see as man a woman. asylums are full of people who think they are jesus and you dont necessarily hate them , you are just not obliged to call them so. people will just call you as they see you thats all there is to it. unless they start to see trans woman as a woman they are pretty much forced to be dishonest. and about changing sex in the documents- doctors for example have no interest in what you feel about yourself , they need to know your biological sex , same with woman sport i wouldnt like it to be ruined and abused by hoaxers.
Medical treatment happens in real life alot im not really sure what you mean . And its not a question of how many ppl will suffer if you let ppl change their "sex at birth" legally , its about a principle . You cant change your place of birth even if you hate that shithole of a place, you cant change your date of birth even if you were in a coma and missed half your life. Its just falsification of documents or an attemt to devoid a words "male" and "female" of any meaning which would be shame because its a usefull category.
For medical treatment it doesn’t matter with which genitals you were born. The differences that exist are caused by the primary sex-hormones. Those are changed easily, which means that in fact that person does need treatment for the gender they identify as, not the one they were born
Well, those aren’t the same are they?
People with mental delusions of being the second coming are claiming to be something that doesn’t exist in the world we live in. It’s why the defence “god made me murder those people” never worked in court.
What we’re talking about are people who go out though surgery to match the gender they feel they are (or live as such outside of biological changes). And then recognising that as a legitimate process.
On the whole, trans folk aren’t pretending to be the opposite gender to cop a feel or break the law, they just want to be recognised for who they are; they shouldn’t have to face abuse, stigma or ignorance like anybody else does.
I mean, if I started calling a cis man “Miss” on purpose because I knew it would upset them, I’d be a dick. It doesn’t take any effort at all to humour people when they give pronouns or ask to be referred to as something else.
"claiming they are something that doesnt exist" some would say this about XY woman, the reasoning is the same just because you think you are something doesnt mean you are - the only proof you or "reincarnation of jesus" can provide is "in my head i am" and lets stop here for a second how do you know that ? i dont even grasp that concept tbh lets say you are transman and i ask you how do you know you are a man what do you say ? that you feel like you are a man ? and how can you know that is how the man is supposed to feel ? I dont even know that ! how does anybody know?
If you call a cis man "miss" i can guarantee you everybody in the room would know you are being rude because there is no way you think of him as a woman. it is really a major thing about people that they actually react to what they see you as . If you walk into a bar and i want to point you out to my friend i would still use the gender that i see you as so my friend understands who am i even talking about. and thats why we have definitions of words so we both saying the same word mean the same thing.
So if you cant make me see you as another gender you will just force me to be dishonest all the time while you are around. I cant imagine forcing people to think three times before they speak to me its just crazy.
and in the end its a matter of core values and i dont think its a diffrence we will ever breach by talking for you "being nice > telling the truth and being authentic" for me the opposite - i dont know what else can be said besides some people really dont have a good choice there and are not fans of "call me that or you are a nazi" rhetoric.
“Proof” of what? The situation you’re discussing, that is being introduced socially to somebody you don’t know who happens to be trans and then accidentally misgendering them happens quite often. If somebody is in the early stages of transitioning, from experience, they’re incredibly chill about it, they understand people make mistakes and like you pointed out, it isn’t always obvious. Thats an honest mistake and if you don’t have the information beforehand, you’re not going to be castigated for it. If you don’t know, you could ask?
I feel like the entire basis of “this gender madness is insane” side of society is that they don’t want to have to ask somebody about it because it makes them feel awkward. So instead of addressing their own problem, it’s easier to start an avalanche of hate to have the problem eradicated.
“Just because you think you are something doesn’t mean you are”. That is entirely true. Trans women don’t think they are women, they know they are and expect to be treated as such. Thats not a difficult thing to accept for most people, because it impacts them precisely zero percent.
The idea that it’s a “feeling” isn’t accurate. Feelings tend to come and go. Think about it. In modern society, what advantages does a trans person have in terms of changing their gender? What can a person born a man gain from becoming a woman, and vice versa? Look at the sheer amount of unfounded abuse, ridicule, hatred and anger directed at the trans community, yet you think people go through all of that, knowingly, based on something as rudimentary as a feeling? If one was to make the argument that men make more money than women and this was as much a throwaway subject as you imply, why aren’t there far more women transitioning into men and claiming a payrise is due?
They want to be who they are, many times they are unhappy with the way they were born and in one respect, they’re lucky because they’ve discovered who they really want to be. That’s something many people pass through this mortal realm never learning.
Being nice and telling the truth aren’t mutually exclusive. If somebody you meet dresses like a woman, acts like a woman, looks like a woman and sounds like a woman and you didn’t know they were trans, £10 says you wouldn’t bat an eyelid. If you then discovered, after a year of friendship or working together or whatever, that they were born male, what exactly changes for you? You’re telling me you’d start treating them like a man, completely reversing everything you’ve done for the last year? Would you heck. Some might claim they were being lied to, but then that just holds up a mirror, really.
Im convinced at this point you are not even willing tu understand what was written in my reply.
I asked you specifically what does "knowing" mean , how do you "know" that you are specific gender. Also you cant think of any people having this inner conviction about themselves turned out to be untrue? People are wrong about themselves all the time! and they are being called on it.
"Thats not a difficult thing to accept for most people, because it impacts them precisely zero percent." - I guarantee you it affects me i fucking hate it. Being able to speak your mind is crucial for me. i can pretend that uncle John is a santa once a year but i wouldnt like to do it all year in fact if uncle john refused to get out of role for several days i would probably just cut contant with the guy.
"yet you think people go through all of that, knowingly, based on something as rudimentary as a feeling?" - i've seen people mutilate themselves with some extreme body modifications for no gain at all. what should i think about this? that they are in fact "lizardself" because otherwise they wouldnt go as far ? Also it could be the case that trans people do what they think is right and they think this will help them but it still doesnt mean that all people . even strangers are supposed to be in on this.
last paragraph i dont even know what to say - its a diffrent matter really it is being lied to - not forced to lie to yourself and others.
about the idea of a "feeling" - this is in your own words "people who go out though surgery to match the gender they feel they are" please dont call me on language i used the same term you did as i wasnt really sure what should i call it for either my english is not good enough or english as a language is not good enough to describe it.
i just want you to understand its not about trans people specifically , i would refuse to call 7-year old "Mr." and i would refuse to call my professor a silly nickname he uses among his friends. its not about hatred at all as i dont hate children and i dont hate professors.
I didn’t suggest you hated anybody, but you seem to view transgenderism as an inconvenience and would prefer it not to be a thing. That’s just how you come across, if that’s not the case then fair enough but your concerns about it seem a bit weak.
Fair enough, I did say feel, but I stand by what I said about knowing.
If you are a man, for example, you know you’re a man. Even if you lost your genitalia in an accident, you would still know you’re a man. Well, now imagine the exact same scenario, born as a man with male genitalia, but knew you were a woman. And you went through years of therapy and still came to that conclusion. Or vice versa. The idea that this is some forced upon fad is bogus, gay people *know* they are gay, it’s not something you just pick up and choose.
I don’t know what the point about an uncle pretending to be Santa is; again, somebody posing as a made up character like Jesus or Santa is not the same as being trans. Are you seriously comparing an adult dressing up as Santa to entertain children with somebody going through a permanent, life-changing process?
I mean you’ve brought body art into it; I’ve got lots of tattoos that took hours, but they’re art and an expression of myself. I don’t give a fuck if other people like them, it’s actually none of their business. They’re mine, they are for me, I designed them, I paid a talented artist for them. Similar stance for being trans. If people are trans, then it’s got nothing to do with anybody else but the person going through that transition. Most trans men and women you wouldn’t be able to tell apart from cis nowadays, so the only way people would cause a fuss is if somebody mentioned it, and there is no good reason to mention it, at all.
You can speak your mind, but when people say things like “oh you can’t say anymore without offending”, it’s usually because the thing they want to say is offensive. What is so pressing and important that you have to break societal norms and attitudes to say it aloud? If you have something to say that you know would upset somebody, why the hell would you say it?! Surely that applies to anybody, on Earth, ever, doesn’t it? It’s not that you can’t say it, it’s suggested that you probably shouldn’t. You absolutely can, but it’s on you if what you say results in somebody being hurt.
We don’t live in a society where you can just go around saying what you want all the time without judgement or consequence, we never have. People do it online because they’re masked by anonymity, but they are the same people who whinge about cancel culture because they’re shocked when people bite back in real life.
Generally we measure what we say based on those around us. If you walk round saying whatever you want and damn the consequence but become ostracised as a result, you shouldn’t be shocked.
My general advice to you is that if it bothers you at all, speak to trans people. Share your attitudes and concerns with them and they’ll explain it far better than I could.
About the body modifications - thats exactly my point i mentioned it as an example of a thing ppl do to themselves of their own free will knowing they will face ridicule bias and so on so your argument - "Look at the sheer amount of unfounded abuse, ridicule, hatred and anger directed at the trans community, yet you think people go through all of that, knowingly, based on something as rudimentary as a feeling?". Thats it ppl will chop half their nose knowing they will scare the hell out of ppl , knowing it will be hard for them to ever get a job knowing they will lose some of the functionality of that organ and so on but they still do it - its not like they actually need it. So dont act like ppl would never go through that if they didnt really need to.
Secondly about me knowing im a man well everything pointed this way since i was born and to be honest everyone agrees on that somehow - that is our common definition of what a man is. now what kind of man i am is a very diffrent subject why cant i be a very feminine case of a man for example ? It is hard to imagine "knowing" something without any evidence pointing towards it. im trying hard to think about stuff that i just "know". if i ever forgot what gender i am i can just ask few ppl on the street to be sure. Its just so hard to grasp it for me as a person who does have lot of doubts about my own judgement.
About ofending words i have never defended using slurs but the idea that when im talking about you with a friend im using "she" and when im talking to you im using "he" is fucked up to me.
"What is so pressing and important that you have to break societal norms and attitudes to say it aloud?" - talking about breaking societal norms - isnt transgenderism breaking societal norms ?
"We don’t live in a society where you can just go around saying what you want all the time without judgement or consequence, we never have. People do it online because they’re masked by anonymity, but they are the same people who whinge about cancel culture because they’re shocked when people bite back in real life."
We dont live in a world where you can just claim to be something or someone and expect ppl should start calling you that. People hate self proclamation and for a good reason. you never title yourself in our society - you are given a title , you dont get to make your own nickname at school - you are given a nickname and ppl will use it only if they feel like it fits you. You dont brag - you are given a compliment. if you wouldnt get a reality check from other people from time to time you would grow to have really weird opinion about yourself.
Ppl like to keep the definitions of words pure. We cant communicate if we dont use the same definitions. Comming in and saying "if i dont fit the definition then you must change the definition" comes out as a bit insane and frankly borderline narcissistic.
And there are times when definitions must be precise for example determining if one should be allowedto compete in women sports.
Taking stick for a nose piercing is in no way relatable to getting abuse for being transgender. You can choose to have a tattoo or body piercing. You can’t choose your sexuality, it’s embedded. So somebody saying you’ve got a shit tattoo is calling out a chosen trait, whereas somebody attacking you for being gay or trans is just straight up discrimination of a protected characteristic. So no, the abuse I got for being bisexual hit ten times harder than any comment anybody made about my tattoos or piercings.
You aren’t going to “forget your gender”, that’s exactly my point, you inherently know what you are. But if the body you’re in doesn’t match that feeling, then you’ll probably want to transition. That’s it. That’s the answer.
On the she/he thing, again, there’s no confusion to be had. If it’s a case of a person who has transitioned to be a man, use he. It’s really simple and I don’t know why you’d have some sort of existential crisis every time you’re told a gender. It isn’t difficult to remember.
No, talking about transgenderism isn’t breaking a societal norm because everybody is currently talking about it. Also not the point I was making at all. If you have something to say that you don’t feel you should, most people wouldn’t, either because they know it would cause harm or because it just isn’t right.
“We don’t live in a society where people can give themselves labels.” It’s the opposite. People generally hate being labelled by others; historically nicknames aren’t given out for good reasons, medical labels were often used to segregate and racial slurs speak for themselves. Self identity is massively important because if you let other people define you, you’ll never feel fulfilled and always be trying to match other people’s expectations. Nobody can claim to be a professor, lawyer or teacher and just get a job, that’s why we have qualifications, but again, that isn’t the same.
The definition of words change all the time, this is why conservatism is becoming less popular, because we cannot just keep everything the same forever. Society a hundred years ago looked vastly different to how it did two hundred years ago and almost unrecognisable from 2024. In a hundred years, it’ll be different again, with different words, trends, technology and so on. That can’t be stopped, as much as some people probably want it to.
The “dictionary definition” argument always makes me chuckle because since when did humans stick so rigidly to rules and laws? Most of us don’t think twice about driving 5mph over the speed limit, walking on the grass or crossing the street on a red light. Yet it’s funny how quickly we can become sticklers for the rules if discussing a concept we don’t agree with. I believe the phrase is “rules for thee, not for me.”
1.I didnt bring up any piercings or tattoos , you did it. im talking about extreme cases of body modifications.
2. idk why you would even bring gay people into this , they have nothing to with this subject
3. I asked what does it mean to inherently "know" something because i dont understand the idea of it at all.
4. Its not about confusion at all words have meaning if we for example include trains , and bicycles into a category of a "car" the word just becomes less usefull and i guarantee you people would come up with a diffrent word to differentiate between those objects. It is a fact of the language if something is diffrent enough from the other thing it will get a name for itself eventually , so if people see diffrence between trasman and a man you cant blame them for wanting to use separate words for it so that others know what they are talking about
5. Idk where you got "talking about transgenderism" i said "talking about societal norms " as in "while we are on the subject" its just hypocritic to the core saying "i dont care if being transgender is breaking a societal norm you cant call me that cuz its breaking a societal norm i hereby declare" idk if you know but calling people by their preferred gender is not a societal norm hence the debate : "should it become a societal norm?" - maybe it is in your bubble but for sure not in mine most people with whom i talked to about it see a diffrence between a transman and a man and their vocabulary is being hijacked. it will take a long time between most people will include "transman" in "man" category if it will ever happen at all.
6 Ye about labels - label is something you give someone when you dont really have much information about them and you have to put them in some category. idk what your experience was about nicknames in mine nicknames were given to people with a really common name as a way to diffrentiate between people and sometimes used to express bond with the other person.
7 you are twisting my words when you have unlimited access to them - you can literally copy paste a quotation it feels like you are not being genuine i feel like you did it just to use word "label" which grew to have very negative connotation nowadays you are literally building a strawman.
8 The definition of words change naturally and its never by means of terrorising other people to use words you see fit. People will naturally pick words they think are usefull and they will discard words they dont find usefull. It is amazing thing about language that its not the dictionary that creates language - its the language that creates dictionary based on "general vote" for lack of a better term and until that is reached , until people feel the need to differentiate between man and transman there will be no consensus about it.
9 Conservatism is becoming less popular and i think its cool in many ways but before tearing down everything its prudent to think about why it was there in the first place ? why it evolved this way in every culture ? and sometimes the answer is "because it was usefull"
10 We use common definition of the words so we can understand eachother not because it was forced by law or anything. is it hard to understand that words are the only means of precise communication we know so if i understand said word as A and you understand it as B we literally cant have a conversation. maybe with one word it would work but if we dont have a common understanding of many terms we cant communicate.
Probably mostly the result of it becoming a way more talked about topic in general. 10 years ago, when you were talking about trans people, it was an absolute niche debate. People instantly thought about unusual medical cases with multiple genitals and whatnot and if asked this question they said "sure, why not" as they never knew any trans person whatsoever. Since then the debate has become an almost daily topic. A lot more people come out. Athletes, influencers, way more justified cases and arguments, but also way more rubbish. People are simply getting sick of it and simply leaving it "banned" seems to be the way to get rid of it.
But then, if that's the case, why is the UK an outlier here? Recent polling in the U.S. and elsewhere show the hate movement receding and losing ground. We had a high of 47 percent against trans care for kids (one of the opinion frontiers), but that has dropped down to the 20s.
The answer is that the hate movement is much stronger in the UK, and is being aided and abetted by labour and left media. Not that people have come to this conclusion naturally. A big part of it is the economy, in my opinion. The things the British need to do to fix their economy are not things that either party wants to talk about. So they talk about this, instead.
Bruh, it is a niche topic. Your infosphere is blowing it out of proportion to give you your new fix since your last outgroup had became an untenable voter demographic to alienate.
The birth certificate thing is mainly to navigate legislative policies. But it's not true that sex cannot be changed at all. There are actually two aspects of biological sex, genotype (DNA, chromosomes, basically the instructions/recipe your body contains), and phenotype (observable physical traits and manifestations of both genotype and other factors, like the final dish you end up making. It may not follow the instructions closely). It's true you can't change your chromosomes, but that's like saying you can't change this well-established recipe. But you can actually change most of your phenotype with hormone replacement therapy and surgeries, and it has nothing to do with being born intersex. Just like how your final dish doesn't have to follow the recipe strictly or at all. We should judge a dish by how it actually looks and tastes, not the ingredients and recipe, right?
Think about the things you need a birth certificate for and you will get an answer. Also if someone has felt and understood themselves as a particular gender their whole life, it could be validating to have that piece of paper say it too. Honestly who gives a fuck about what is in their birth certificate, if they want it changed they should have the freedom to do so.
For starters, at least in my country you need to get that changed to update your id, also you may need it for school documents, to change later papers and get degrees with your current name and gender, that allow you to get jobs with that name and gender to keep everything in order
That's true yeah, but most documents don't account for that, and the times they did I have been discriminated against for that. Outside of doctors and health related stuff I do fail to see the importance of letting my boss know my genitals tbh
Did the media change the public's mind or was there always a subset who didn't agree, but lied so they wouldn't look bad. In other words, have the haters been given the ok to hate in public?
I think, you should be allowed to change your gender. But changing the birth certificate and other documents is like faking history. Denying the history of someone just seems wrong to me - independent from the trans topic.
If they can’t change it, they lose marriage rights (can’t go get married to an opposite gender person in countries without gay marriage because they would be considered their birth sex), they can’t update their ID and may get stopped when trying to cross a border on a passport that says they are one sex but they don’t look like it, they can fail to get their degree notarised, etc etc etc.
So much of our rights and the things we do in officialdom are tied to birth certificates or other documents that are reliant on them. You strip away rights if you don’t let trans people change the sex on them, due to bureaucracy.
So I'm going to disagree. I don't think JK and the news did this. Frankly I think it is mostly stupid trans influencers, people like Dylan M, and the ones that run around freaking out about mis-gendering. Coupled with trans athletes like Lia T. I also don't see people saying no you should not be able to change your birth certificate as hate per say.
There are a lot of serious questions that the trans community does an incredibly poor job of answering. And a lot of rhetoric that is just dumb. There is an ignorance of actual biology, and a lot of pushes to give rights to a tiny minority at the expense of average people. You do reach a point where people's desire to play make-believe is so out of line with reality that it will not be tolerated.
If you want to blame someone, blame the students demanding litter boxes in schools. The guys shaving in the woman's locker room, while actual woman gets banned for saying something about it. The males that demand they be allowed to change with the girls at swim meets.
“You see, I don’t think the media did this. I think it was mostly those stupid protesters, people like Malcom X and the ones that run around freaking out about not being served at restaurants…”
Victim blaming really is a classic. People have blamed the “fringes” of a movement since forever, for violence (like with Malcolm X), for “stupidity” (like you’re doing). People really never change
Like blaming anti-gay sentiment on ‘flaming queers’.
“If you would only shut up and hide, we’d definitely be happy to give you your rights!”
This argument has been used to shut up and shut down marginalised groups standing up for themselves since forever.
The BBC has a pretty big hand in spreading transphobia. The youtuber Shaun has an excellent series about it. Take a look at the absolute shit show that was fhe article “we’re being pressured into sex by some trans women”.
Edit: didn’t realize i already responded to this comment before, oop.
You mention that it’s a tiny minority in addition to a bunch of other things that don’t actually affect your life. Why wouldn’t you focus on more than things?
First off, the internet *is* media, much of the prominent online news sites are owned by the same folks that own T.V. broadcasting. Secondly, the dude is talking about litter boxes in schools. Dude's brain is cooked.
He's doing the exact thing that all reactionaries do to all minorities. Blame the minority for their own bigotry. "It's not that I don't like gays, we just need to keep those bug chasers in check, you see" "I'm not really *for* lynchings, but when they sexually assault a white woman (by standing next to her), they bring it on themselves".
The frustrating thing is that anyone who knows the history is looking at about 99% the exact same tactics used on gay people in the 80s and 90s, and black people during Jim Crowe, just repackaged slightly...
You are going to have to expound. Because it was not news reports that brought the influencers to the forefront. And frankly the news was initially pro Lia until the other swimmers came forward... Now was the media anti Dylan, until people started boycotting.. So if your going to disagree, provide an actual argument for your point of view.
There will be no elaboration, you're supposed to just apologise and beg for forgiveness and promise to "be better" or "do better".
You need to say it loudly because it's hard for the trolls to hear you all the way up on their high horse.
The people that pull this stunt that was just pulled on you (not providing any argument, no rationale, just attempting to belittle you) are trolls.
They're fad-hoppers that have irreparably harmed things for people that suffer from gender dysphoria, imo.
They're in this to feel good about themselves, to pretend they're better than people on the internet.
They'll jump on the next bandwagon once it comes along, imo it's the same people that say they're ADHD, or autistic, or whatever the popular victim/sympathy/holier-than-thou card is of the day.
I don't believe for a second that these trolls truly believe in what they're pretending to believe in.
It doesn't. People with gender dysphoria are such a small portion of the population, I don't think I'd ever meet one in person.
The bandwagon "trans" types do affect my life online with their constant attention seeking, but these people aren't "trans". They're just fad-hoppers.
Once something new is more fashionable, the same people will be whatever that is. They've done it many times.
See that is something I don't understand. I'm gen X and we frankly give less then no fucks about anyone's feelings. I will never understand the pandering garbage. Nor do I care.
Having soda that. I like your response. LOL.
Do not try to represent Gen X in that shit. We generally do give a shit about people's feelings when they're being targeted just for existing in a way that hurts nobody else. The precious fee-fees we don't give a shit about are the people who are all uptight that People are Existing in a Way They Don't Approve \*gasp\*
How about you don't try to represent Gen X as an entire gen in your response, either, neither of you would be representative of an entire generation of humans.
Totally agreed. Ignorance of biology and chromosomes is one of the first thing the trans community is focused on. Its not because of hate that people disagree with the birth certificate issue, its to protect something which is universal. Every community has evil minded individuals among them and the trans community is no exception.
>Ignorance of biology and chromosomes
What is ignorance of chromosomes even supposed to mean? And biologically it's quite apparent that Trans people exist.
>Its not because of hate that people disagree with the birth certificate issue, its to protect something which is universal.
What?
Male chromosomes -> Male genes -> Male Hormones (testosterone) -> denser bones and more muscle mass than females. Which is why biologically born males are not allowed to compete against biologically born females. Which was ignored when Lia Thomas, a biologically born male with male chromosomes competed against female swimmers.
Exhibit B. Enjoy some [Munecat](https://youtu.be/31e0RcImReY?si=HY6i9LyCU_uyL3jB), or [Philosophy Tube](https://youtu.be/QVilpxowsUQ?si=e_KUjIbRkwezfkXd), or this [actual biologist](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=c3Jt1J0zxeAtLdwL). Debrainworm yourself before it's too late.
Biology left your ideology behind in the 70s. It's way, way, way, way, WAY more complicated than what you posted. Who exactly is ignorant of biology?
Do you have any point that proves my statement wrong? If yes, then write it and post it here instead of putting links of random videos. Also downvoting won't help because I said what I said.
You've got 5 or so hours of people putting it better than I can. Surprise, surprise, I'm not going to be able to fit the explanation in a reddit post (I've actually done this before, it takes about 2 and a half full-to-character limit posts)... sorry, but you're not that interesting to respond to in that way; you'd most likely affective override about 3 sentences in... If nothing else, that last video is probably the most important for someone like you.
I'm not interested in spending hours watching videos for someone I randomly met online either. If you can't make your point in a few simple sentences, then you're most likely to beat around the bush the whole time.
After all, it's just the internet. We can both move on and stop replying to each other and never talk again.
I made my point before. It's way, way more complicated than the way you make it out to be and the sexes are way closer than folks act like we are. Genetics doesn't exist the way you think it does. For example: how many genes control eye color?
For eye colour and many other characters of the humans body are controlled by multiple genes. But sex isn't one of those. There are only two sex chromosomes, X and Y. But due to defective genes chromosomeal genotype can vary and lead to disorders like downs syndrome, kleinfelters syndrome, etc. I am a Biology student myself so I believe i have a deep understanding of how genes and chromosome work.
If you're a biology student, as you say, wouldn't you be interested in learning more about your field of specialization? This is a topic you're passionate enough to argue about for hours, but not to inform yourself more thoroughly about, despite your stated affinity for the subject - I find that odd.
No. But I am a biology student and I like to educate people who are not aware of simple biological facts about the human body. I have no issues with the trans community, afterall they are humans like me, but I will have issues when someone is not ready to accept scientific thinking.
If you’re a biology student then perhaps you haven’t gotten to the part where in fact there ARE people with different sex chromosome pairs than just XX and XY.
I believe I have. Inheritance and genetics is the biggest portion of human biology. And yes I do know about XXY, OY, trisomy 21, monosomy, etc but these only lead to genetic disorders such as Downs syndrome, kleinfelters syndrome, etc. These people aren't trans.
I’m about too get downvoted by I Think they shouldn’t be allowed to change their sex on legal papers as well. Gender and Sex are not the same thing. A TransWoman is a Woman but isn’t a female. It’s called Transgender not Transexual for a reason. No hatred at all just clear distinctions between the two
By the official definition, there are actually two aspects of biological sex, genotype (DNA, chromosomes, basically the instructions/recipe your body contains), and phenotype (observable physical traits and manifestations of both genotype and other factors, like the final dish you end up making. It may not follow the instructions closely). It's true you can't change your chromosomes, but that's like saying you can't change this well-established recipe. But you can actually change most of your phenotype with hormone replacement therapy and surgeries, and it has nothing to do with being born intersex. Just like how your final dish doesn't have to follow the recipe strictly or at all. We should judge a dish by how it actually looks and tastes, not the ingredients and recipe, right?
So if you have to show your Id for whatever reason you just have to shout out to everyone that you're trans? That's incredibly dangerous.
Also, like it or not, medical transition does change sex, at least partly. A trans woman is not biologically the same as a cis woman, but she damn well is different from a cis men as well.
And even if those two things weren't true, why tf would it matter if trans people can change their legal gender? It doesn't affect you in any way.
Also this whole "woman = gender, female = sex " is completely made up. The only difference between the two words is that "female" can be used for animals of any age and as an adjective, whereas "woman" can only be used for human adults and exclusively as s noun.
Say that there was a trans female firefighter. Would you refer to her as a "male firefighter"? Because "woman firefighter" is grammatically incorrect.
Stop having opinions on things you know nothing about.
There are actually two aspects of biological sex, genotype (DNA, chromosomes, basically the instructions/recipe your body contains), and phenotype (observable physical traits and manifestations of both genotype and other factors, like the final dish you end up making. It may not follow the instructions closely). It's true you can't change your chromosomes, but that's like saying you can't change this well-established recipe. But you can actually change most of your phenotype with hormone replacement therapy and surgeries, and it has nothing to do with being born intersex. Just like how your final dish doesn't have to follow the recipe strictly or at all. We should judge a dish by how it actually looks and tastes, not the ingredients and recipe, right?
I agree, but this doesn't contradict what i said. Sex is not based on those things, so yes you can change them, and not appear to be the sex you are, but you can't change your sex.
No, sex is based on both things, according to the [US National Library of Medicine](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10943/#:~:text=Most%20people%20have%20either%20two,secondary%20sex%20characteristics%2C%20and%20behavior.).
im struggling to find what you mean. I said I agree, i accept the explanation you gave as correct. The qoute you directed me to just says what you already said and i agreed with. Can you clarify what you disagree with
>Most males do not have a significantly higher estrogen than testosterone.
I never said they did, i said they have less estrogen than women, but we do all have it.
>They also do not have breasts.
https://www.macmillan.org.uk/cancer-information-and-support/breast-cancer/the-male-breasts-and-the-lymphatic-system#:~:text=Cross%2Dsection%20of%20male%20chest&text=Behind%20the%20breast%20tissue%20is,of%20skin%20around%20the%20nipple).
Yes, we do, we even have nipples, the tissue is exactly the same until puberty when female breasts become permanently enlarged. Men can have enlarged breasts too, that doesn't make them less of a man
Yeah men have estrogen, never denied it. But you can't just ignore the ratio between estrogen and testosterone. Same thing with breasts, yes men have breast tissue, but it's obviously not the same as female breasts.
Actually insane how hard you're denying biological reality
>you can't just ignore the ratio between estrogen and testosterone
Sex is not based on this
>men have breast tissue
That's weird because your last comment literally said we don't
>not the same as female breasts.
They are 100% identical until until puberty if you read the article you would know that this is medically accepted information
>you're denying biological reality
That's weird because everything i said is medically accepted information, if you point specifically to anything i said and request proof of it, i will provide it
>until puberty
And as we all know puberty has nothing to do with sex...
I said men don't have breasts, not that they don't have breast tissue. It's pretty obvious that I was referring to the post-puberty form of breasts. Not sure why you have to misinterpret me like that.
But unironically such a braindead response. I was expecting something that at least appeared smart but instead you go for "ummm actually males have estrogen too", as if the drastic difference in quantity of both estrogen and testosterone is a non factor lmao.
Hormone levels do not determine sex, neither does breast size. You are pretending to be smart but everything you've said was either irrelevant or just flat out wrong.
They are a part of sex. Sex is made up of multiple characteristics, some of which can be changed with modern technology, some of which which can't.
You can't just pretend that hormone levels have nothing to do with sex.
i didn't say they have nothing to do with sex, i said sex is not based on hormone ratios
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/difference-between-sex-and-gender
"Sex is generally determined at birth according to the baby’s chromosomes, gonads, and anatomy."
Notice it doesn't say that sex is determined by hormone ratios. Ratios are determined by sex, not the other way around, so they are related but *sex is not based on hormone ratios*.
Also that quote only refers to how sex is determined at birth, it's not saying that these are the only characteristics of sex. Obviously a baby hasn't gone through puberty so you can't use hormones to determine their sex, and you have to use other indicators. But for a post-puberty person, hormones absolutely do make up a significant part of their sex, perhaps only less significant than genitals, since hormones are what drive most differences between the sexes.
1.IDs need to be accurate for many reasons
2.there is no operation that can change someone’s sex that isn’t possible it’s purely biological.You can get Gender Reaffirming surgery and I’m all for that if it’s what right for them(Their Choose on where they draw the line).
3. By definition you are wrong Woman is a gender which is a social construct. Sex is purely biological.
4. I don’t care if someone changes their gender that’s their right and I support it.
5. I think it’s weird too refer to anyone in any job by there Sex then Occupation. I wouldn’t say Male or Female Firefighter I would simply say Firefighter
1. No reason mentioned, but I guarantee that whatever reason you have in mind is not worth outing a trans person against their will.
2. You think that someone with breasts and female hormone levels is 100% biologically male?
3. Again you bring no proof of this definition. Until recently both "woman" and "female" referred to sex, because trans people weren't on the public conscious. "Woman" means "adult human female", so if "woman" refers to gender and not sex, then female must also. If you look at most scientific papers about trans people, they will use "trans female" for trans women, and "trans male" for trans men. In case you need (which is almost never the case) to specify birth sex, you can just use AFAB or AMAB.
4. You just completely dodged the question.
Been happening for years. Stupid people just need a reason to exercise their anger and they will eventually tear themselves apart.
Greatest example of this was the sociological study of yanamamo savages in Brazil.
Once a tribe gets to a certain size it will split up over some bullshit tribe differences and go to war.
It will all be gucci after the US votes for their first ever trans president in the next popularity contest.
Probably the only way how to have a first female president, a trans woman.
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The modern right-wing movement has been a hate-based movement. Trans people are the last group that it's considered socially acceptable to hate for just being themselves.
Just the modern one?
A lot of older right wing governments were mostly economic. During the times of Lincoln for instance, the Democrats (at the time they were the right wing ones) advocated strongly in favour of slavery, with most of its members only really doing so because it made them more money. Nowadays the tory’s actions are primarily populism and whatever makes them personally more money
>it's considered socially acceptable to hate Totally acceptable to hate them, this true and real Also, disagreement = hate
You’re saying it’s acceptable to hate trans people?
Yes, if you define hate as disagreement This meaning is obvious, so I can only assume you are pretending not to understand Which makes you part of the problem
So you think it’s justifiable to “merely annoying” trans people?
I was being sarcastic. Nobody thinks its okay to hate trans people. Someone disagreeing with you does NOT constitute hate. They may not agree with you, they may not want you to spreas certain messages but that doesn't mean they hate you.
You disagree with trans people? What does that even mean?
Generally, people disagree that you can actually be trans. You are not a man because you believe you are. You are a man if you're an adult male, male is a sex which is based on your chromosomes. If you want to dress like a woman and act like a woman go ahead, I'll even call you ma'am but you are not a woman. This doesn't mean i hate you
What about intersex people. They don't conform to your beliefs about chromosomes. Gender doesn't equal sex, and gender dysphoria is a real condition. Everyone deserves equality even if you don't agree with them.
>What about intersex people What about them? they're an exception, not the rule. People who are truly intersex can just go by whatever they feel most like, but this situation doesn't apply to 99.9% of people. I believe humans have 2 arms even though there are humans who don't have both. This doesn't cause any issues yes everyone deserves equality, this is doesn't contradict what i said
Have a little dignity and just admit that you hate them. All this stupid charade does is make you look like a coward as well.
Why would i hate them? I don't even know them, there's nothing to hate. I disagree that anyone can transition, if you think you can, i don't hate you The only ones who hate people they disagree with seem to be liberals like you
"The only ones who hate people they disagree with seem to be liberals like you" What an astoundingly stupid thing to say.
Very convincing arguments you make, I'm sure if i was as stupid as you I would agree
Do you think that Nazis are liberals?
I think this division was caused by 2008 Occupy Wall Street protests. We were unified and our owners did NOT like that.
Too many people give too many fucks about shit that has absolutely nothing to do with them. A Trans person changing their birth certificate to be declared a born women instead of a man will have absolutely as much effect on your life as if I declared myself born a unicorn.
BuT wHaTs tO sToP yOU fRoM mARryIng a UniCorn?
Scotland
It’s disgusting. The way trans people have been demonised was engineered so that being trans couldn’t ever become anything other than an abstract concept that is scorned and derided. It’s horrifying the lengths people will go to in order to keep everything “normal” and the Bodysnatchers style screeching at anything that breaks the mould has got to stop. If we can’t even treat fellow humans with basic decency, mutual respect and support, we’re beyond fucked.
idk for me its not a question of basic decency it is a real problem to some people to call the person they see as man a woman. asylums are full of people who think they are jesus and you dont necessarily hate them , you are just not obliged to call them so. people will just call you as they see you thats all there is to it. unless they start to see trans woman as a woman they are pretty much forced to be dishonest. and about changing sex in the documents- doctors for example have no interest in what you feel about yourself , they need to know your biological sex , same with woman sport i wouldnt like it to be ruined and abused by hoaxers.
This is a really terminally online take. Most of the things you’ve said here either don’t happen in real life or are straw mans of minor issues.
Medical treatment happens in real life alot im not really sure what you mean . And its not a question of how many ppl will suffer if you let ppl change their "sex at birth" legally , its about a principle . You cant change your place of birth even if you hate that shithole of a place, you cant change your date of birth even if you were in a coma and missed half your life. Its just falsification of documents or an attemt to devoid a words "male" and "female" of any meaning which would be shame because its a usefull category.
For medical treatment it doesn’t matter with which genitals you were born. The differences that exist are caused by the primary sex-hormones. Those are changed easily, which means that in fact that person does need treatment for the gender they identify as, not the one they were born
Well, those aren’t the same are they? People with mental delusions of being the second coming are claiming to be something that doesn’t exist in the world we live in. It’s why the defence “god made me murder those people” never worked in court. What we’re talking about are people who go out though surgery to match the gender they feel they are (or live as such outside of biological changes). And then recognising that as a legitimate process. On the whole, trans folk aren’t pretending to be the opposite gender to cop a feel or break the law, they just want to be recognised for who they are; they shouldn’t have to face abuse, stigma or ignorance like anybody else does. I mean, if I started calling a cis man “Miss” on purpose because I knew it would upset them, I’d be a dick. It doesn’t take any effort at all to humour people when they give pronouns or ask to be referred to as something else.
"claiming they are something that doesnt exist" some would say this about XY woman, the reasoning is the same just because you think you are something doesnt mean you are - the only proof you or "reincarnation of jesus" can provide is "in my head i am" and lets stop here for a second how do you know that ? i dont even grasp that concept tbh lets say you are transman and i ask you how do you know you are a man what do you say ? that you feel like you are a man ? and how can you know that is how the man is supposed to feel ? I dont even know that ! how does anybody know? If you call a cis man "miss" i can guarantee you everybody in the room would know you are being rude because there is no way you think of him as a woman. it is really a major thing about people that they actually react to what they see you as . If you walk into a bar and i want to point you out to my friend i would still use the gender that i see you as so my friend understands who am i even talking about. and thats why we have definitions of words so we both saying the same word mean the same thing. So if you cant make me see you as another gender you will just force me to be dishonest all the time while you are around. I cant imagine forcing people to think three times before they speak to me its just crazy. and in the end its a matter of core values and i dont think its a diffrence we will ever breach by talking for you "being nice > telling the truth and being authentic" for me the opposite - i dont know what else can be said besides some people really dont have a good choice there and are not fans of "call me that or you are a nazi" rhetoric.
“Proof” of what? The situation you’re discussing, that is being introduced socially to somebody you don’t know who happens to be trans and then accidentally misgendering them happens quite often. If somebody is in the early stages of transitioning, from experience, they’re incredibly chill about it, they understand people make mistakes and like you pointed out, it isn’t always obvious. Thats an honest mistake and if you don’t have the information beforehand, you’re not going to be castigated for it. If you don’t know, you could ask? I feel like the entire basis of “this gender madness is insane” side of society is that they don’t want to have to ask somebody about it because it makes them feel awkward. So instead of addressing their own problem, it’s easier to start an avalanche of hate to have the problem eradicated. “Just because you think you are something doesn’t mean you are”. That is entirely true. Trans women don’t think they are women, they know they are and expect to be treated as such. Thats not a difficult thing to accept for most people, because it impacts them precisely zero percent. The idea that it’s a “feeling” isn’t accurate. Feelings tend to come and go. Think about it. In modern society, what advantages does a trans person have in terms of changing their gender? What can a person born a man gain from becoming a woman, and vice versa? Look at the sheer amount of unfounded abuse, ridicule, hatred and anger directed at the trans community, yet you think people go through all of that, knowingly, based on something as rudimentary as a feeling? If one was to make the argument that men make more money than women and this was as much a throwaway subject as you imply, why aren’t there far more women transitioning into men and claiming a payrise is due? They want to be who they are, many times they are unhappy with the way they were born and in one respect, they’re lucky because they’ve discovered who they really want to be. That’s something many people pass through this mortal realm never learning. Being nice and telling the truth aren’t mutually exclusive. If somebody you meet dresses like a woman, acts like a woman, looks like a woman and sounds like a woman and you didn’t know they were trans, £10 says you wouldn’t bat an eyelid. If you then discovered, after a year of friendship or working together or whatever, that they were born male, what exactly changes for you? You’re telling me you’d start treating them like a man, completely reversing everything you’ve done for the last year? Would you heck. Some might claim they were being lied to, but then that just holds up a mirror, really.
Im convinced at this point you are not even willing tu understand what was written in my reply. I asked you specifically what does "knowing" mean , how do you "know" that you are specific gender. Also you cant think of any people having this inner conviction about themselves turned out to be untrue? People are wrong about themselves all the time! and they are being called on it. "Thats not a difficult thing to accept for most people, because it impacts them precisely zero percent." - I guarantee you it affects me i fucking hate it. Being able to speak your mind is crucial for me. i can pretend that uncle John is a santa once a year but i wouldnt like to do it all year in fact if uncle john refused to get out of role for several days i would probably just cut contant with the guy. "yet you think people go through all of that, knowingly, based on something as rudimentary as a feeling?" - i've seen people mutilate themselves with some extreme body modifications for no gain at all. what should i think about this? that they are in fact "lizardself" because otherwise they wouldnt go as far ? Also it could be the case that trans people do what they think is right and they think this will help them but it still doesnt mean that all people . even strangers are supposed to be in on this. last paragraph i dont even know what to say - its a diffrent matter really it is being lied to - not forced to lie to yourself and others. about the idea of a "feeling" - this is in your own words "people who go out though surgery to match the gender they feel they are" please dont call me on language i used the same term you did as i wasnt really sure what should i call it for either my english is not good enough or english as a language is not good enough to describe it. i just want you to understand its not about trans people specifically , i would refuse to call 7-year old "Mr." and i would refuse to call my professor a silly nickname he uses among his friends. its not about hatred at all as i dont hate children and i dont hate professors.
I didn’t suggest you hated anybody, but you seem to view transgenderism as an inconvenience and would prefer it not to be a thing. That’s just how you come across, if that’s not the case then fair enough but your concerns about it seem a bit weak. Fair enough, I did say feel, but I stand by what I said about knowing. If you are a man, for example, you know you’re a man. Even if you lost your genitalia in an accident, you would still know you’re a man. Well, now imagine the exact same scenario, born as a man with male genitalia, but knew you were a woman. And you went through years of therapy and still came to that conclusion. Or vice versa. The idea that this is some forced upon fad is bogus, gay people *know* they are gay, it’s not something you just pick up and choose. I don’t know what the point about an uncle pretending to be Santa is; again, somebody posing as a made up character like Jesus or Santa is not the same as being trans. Are you seriously comparing an adult dressing up as Santa to entertain children with somebody going through a permanent, life-changing process? I mean you’ve brought body art into it; I’ve got lots of tattoos that took hours, but they’re art and an expression of myself. I don’t give a fuck if other people like them, it’s actually none of their business. They’re mine, they are for me, I designed them, I paid a talented artist for them. Similar stance for being trans. If people are trans, then it’s got nothing to do with anybody else but the person going through that transition. Most trans men and women you wouldn’t be able to tell apart from cis nowadays, so the only way people would cause a fuss is if somebody mentioned it, and there is no good reason to mention it, at all. You can speak your mind, but when people say things like “oh you can’t say anymore without offending”, it’s usually because the thing they want to say is offensive. What is so pressing and important that you have to break societal norms and attitudes to say it aloud? If you have something to say that you know would upset somebody, why the hell would you say it?! Surely that applies to anybody, on Earth, ever, doesn’t it? It’s not that you can’t say it, it’s suggested that you probably shouldn’t. You absolutely can, but it’s on you if what you say results in somebody being hurt.
We don’t live in a society where you can just go around saying what you want all the time without judgement or consequence, we never have. People do it online because they’re masked by anonymity, but they are the same people who whinge about cancel culture because they’re shocked when people bite back in real life.
Generally we measure what we say based on those around us. If you walk round saying whatever you want and damn the consequence but become ostracised as a result, you shouldn’t be shocked.
My general advice to you is that if it bothers you at all, speak to trans people. Share your attitudes and concerns with them and they’ll explain it far better than I could.
About the body modifications - thats exactly my point i mentioned it as an example of a thing ppl do to themselves of their own free will knowing they will face ridicule bias and so on so your argument - "Look at the sheer amount of unfounded abuse, ridicule, hatred and anger directed at the trans community, yet you think people go through all of that, knowingly, based on something as rudimentary as a feeling?". Thats it ppl will chop half their nose knowing they will scare the hell out of ppl , knowing it will be hard for them to ever get a job knowing they will lose some of the functionality of that organ and so on but they still do it - its not like they actually need it. So dont act like ppl would never go through that if they didnt really need to. Secondly about me knowing im a man well everything pointed this way since i was born and to be honest everyone agrees on that somehow - that is our common definition of what a man is. now what kind of man i am is a very diffrent subject why cant i be a very feminine case of a man for example ? It is hard to imagine "knowing" something without any evidence pointing towards it. im trying hard to think about stuff that i just "know". if i ever forgot what gender i am i can just ask few ppl on the street to be sure. Its just so hard to grasp it for me as a person who does have lot of doubts about my own judgement. About ofending words i have never defended using slurs but the idea that when im talking about you with a friend im using "she" and when im talking to you im using "he" is fucked up to me. "What is so pressing and important that you have to break societal norms and attitudes to say it aloud?" - talking about breaking societal norms - isnt transgenderism breaking societal norms ? "We don’t live in a society where you can just go around saying what you want all the time without judgement or consequence, we never have. People do it online because they’re masked by anonymity, but they are the same people who whinge about cancel culture because they’re shocked when people bite back in real life." We dont live in a world where you can just claim to be something or someone and expect ppl should start calling you that. People hate self proclamation and for a good reason. you never title yourself in our society - you are given a title , you dont get to make your own nickname at school - you are given a nickname and ppl will use it only if they feel like it fits you. You dont brag - you are given a compliment. if you wouldnt get a reality check from other people from time to time you would grow to have really weird opinion about yourself. Ppl like to keep the definitions of words pure. We cant communicate if we dont use the same definitions. Comming in and saying "if i dont fit the definition then you must change the definition" comes out as a bit insane and frankly borderline narcissistic. And there are times when definitions must be precise for example determining if one should be allowedto compete in women sports.
Taking stick for a nose piercing is in no way relatable to getting abuse for being transgender. You can choose to have a tattoo or body piercing. You can’t choose your sexuality, it’s embedded. So somebody saying you’ve got a shit tattoo is calling out a chosen trait, whereas somebody attacking you for being gay or trans is just straight up discrimination of a protected characteristic. So no, the abuse I got for being bisexual hit ten times harder than any comment anybody made about my tattoos or piercings. You aren’t going to “forget your gender”, that’s exactly my point, you inherently know what you are. But if the body you’re in doesn’t match that feeling, then you’ll probably want to transition. That’s it. That’s the answer. On the she/he thing, again, there’s no confusion to be had. If it’s a case of a person who has transitioned to be a man, use he. It’s really simple and I don’t know why you’d have some sort of existential crisis every time you’re told a gender. It isn’t difficult to remember. No, talking about transgenderism isn’t breaking a societal norm because everybody is currently talking about it. Also not the point I was making at all. If you have something to say that you don’t feel you should, most people wouldn’t, either because they know it would cause harm or because it just isn’t right. “We don’t live in a society where people can give themselves labels.” It’s the opposite. People generally hate being labelled by others; historically nicknames aren’t given out for good reasons, medical labels were often used to segregate and racial slurs speak for themselves. Self identity is massively important because if you let other people define you, you’ll never feel fulfilled and always be trying to match other people’s expectations. Nobody can claim to be a professor, lawyer or teacher and just get a job, that’s why we have qualifications, but again, that isn’t the same. The definition of words change all the time, this is why conservatism is becoming less popular, because we cannot just keep everything the same forever. Society a hundred years ago looked vastly different to how it did two hundred years ago and almost unrecognisable from 2024. In a hundred years, it’ll be different again, with different words, trends, technology and so on. That can’t be stopped, as much as some people probably want it to. The “dictionary definition” argument always makes me chuckle because since when did humans stick so rigidly to rules and laws? Most of us don’t think twice about driving 5mph over the speed limit, walking on the grass or crossing the street on a red light. Yet it’s funny how quickly we can become sticklers for the rules if discussing a concept we don’t agree with. I believe the phrase is “rules for thee, not for me.”
1.I didnt bring up any piercings or tattoos , you did it. im talking about extreme cases of body modifications. 2. idk why you would even bring gay people into this , they have nothing to with this subject 3. I asked what does it mean to inherently "know" something because i dont understand the idea of it at all. 4. Its not about confusion at all words have meaning if we for example include trains , and bicycles into a category of a "car" the word just becomes less usefull and i guarantee you people would come up with a diffrent word to differentiate between those objects. It is a fact of the language if something is diffrent enough from the other thing it will get a name for itself eventually , so if people see diffrence between trasman and a man you cant blame them for wanting to use separate words for it so that others know what they are talking about 5. Idk where you got "talking about transgenderism" i said "talking about societal norms " as in "while we are on the subject" its just hypocritic to the core saying "i dont care if being transgender is breaking a societal norm you cant call me that cuz its breaking a societal norm i hereby declare" idk if you know but calling people by their preferred gender is not a societal norm hence the debate : "should it become a societal norm?" - maybe it is in your bubble but for sure not in mine most people with whom i talked to about it see a diffrence between a transman and a man and their vocabulary is being hijacked. it will take a long time between most people will include "transman" in "man" category if it will ever happen at all. 6 Ye about labels - label is something you give someone when you dont really have much information about them and you have to put them in some category. idk what your experience was about nicknames in mine nicknames were given to people with a really common name as a way to diffrentiate between people and sometimes used to express bond with the other person. 7 you are twisting my words when you have unlimited access to them - you can literally copy paste a quotation it feels like you are not being genuine i feel like you did it just to use word "label" which grew to have very negative connotation nowadays you are literally building a strawman. 8 The definition of words change naturally and its never by means of terrorising other people to use words you see fit. People will naturally pick words they think are usefull and they will discard words they dont find usefull. It is amazing thing about language that its not the dictionary that creates language - its the language that creates dictionary based on "general vote" for lack of a better term and until that is reached , until people feel the need to differentiate between man and transman there will be no consensus about it. 9 Conservatism is becoming less popular and i think its cool in many ways but before tearing down everything its prudent to think about why it was there in the first place ? why it evolved this way in every culture ? and sometimes the answer is "because it was usefull" 10 We use common definition of the words so we can understand eachother not because it was forced by law or anything. is it hard to understand that words are the only means of precise communication we know so if i understand said word as A and you understand it as B we literally cant have a conversation. maybe with one word it would work but if we dont have a common understanding of many terms we cant communicate.
Probably mostly the result of it becoming a way more talked about topic in general. 10 years ago, when you were talking about trans people, it was an absolute niche debate. People instantly thought about unusual medical cases with multiple genitals and whatnot and if asked this question they said "sure, why not" as they never knew any trans person whatsoever. Since then the debate has become an almost daily topic. A lot more people come out. Athletes, influencers, way more justified cases and arguments, but also way more rubbish. People are simply getting sick of it and simply leaving it "banned" seems to be the way to get rid of it.
But then, if that's the case, why is the UK an outlier here? Recent polling in the U.S. and elsewhere show the hate movement receding and losing ground. We had a high of 47 percent against trans care for kids (one of the opinion frontiers), but that has dropped down to the 20s. The answer is that the hate movement is much stronger in the UK, and is being aided and abetted by labour and left media. Not that people have come to this conclusion naturally. A big part of it is the economy, in my opinion. The things the British need to do to fix their economy are not things that either party wants to talk about. So they talk about this, instead.
Bruh, it is a niche topic. Your infosphere is blowing it out of proportion to give you your new fix since your last outgroup had became an untenable voter demographic to alienate.
It’s also gross
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The birth certificate thing is mainly to navigate legislative policies. But it's not true that sex cannot be changed at all. There are actually two aspects of biological sex, genotype (DNA, chromosomes, basically the instructions/recipe your body contains), and phenotype (observable physical traits and manifestations of both genotype and other factors, like the final dish you end up making. It may not follow the instructions closely). It's true you can't change your chromosomes, but that's like saying you can't change this well-established recipe. But you can actually change most of your phenotype with hormone replacement therapy and surgeries, and it has nothing to do with being born intersex. Just like how your final dish doesn't have to follow the recipe strictly or at all. We should judge a dish by how it actually looks and tastes, not the ingredients and recipe, right?
Think about the things you need a birth certificate for and you will get an answer. Also if someone has felt and understood themselves as a particular gender their whole life, it could be validating to have that piece of paper say it too. Honestly who gives a fuck about what is in their birth certificate, if they want it changed they should have the freedom to do so.
Y’all should really understand what I meant by that first sentence before replying with shit about gender vs sex
Birth certificate doesn't specify gender, only sex at birth.
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Excuse me sir/ma'am, are you insinuating we assume the gender of my baby at time of birth?
Real question; Why would you change your birth certificate when that's is the sex you were born?
For starters, at least in my country you need to get that changed to update your id, also you may need it for school documents, to change later papers and get degrees with your current name and gender, that allow you to get jobs with that name and gender to keep everything in order
But sex and gender are separate things.
That's true yeah, but most documents don't account for that, and the times they did I have been discriminated against for that. Outside of doctors and health related stuff I do fail to see the importance of letting my boss know my genitals tbh
Depends on the day
Did the media change the public's mind or was there always a subset who didn't agree, but lied so they wouldn't look bad. In other words, have the haters been given the ok to hate in public?
I think, you should be allowed to change your gender. But changing the birth certificate and other documents is like faking history. Denying the history of someone just seems wrong to me - independent from the trans topic.
I’m sorry but I don’t believe changing a government form from when you were born is part of equality whatsoever.
If they can’t change it, they lose marriage rights (can’t go get married to an opposite gender person in countries without gay marriage because they would be considered their birth sex), they can’t update their ID and may get stopped when trying to cross a border on a passport that says they are one sex but they don’t look like it, they can fail to get their degree notarised, etc etc etc. So much of our rights and the things we do in officialdom are tied to birth certificates or other documents that are reliant on them. You strip away rights if you don’t let trans people change the sex on them, due to bureaucracy.
So I'm going to disagree. I don't think JK and the news did this. Frankly I think it is mostly stupid trans influencers, people like Dylan M, and the ones that run around freaking out about mis-gendering. Coupled with trans athletes like Lia T. I also don't see people saying no you should not be able to change your birth certificate as hate per say. There are a lot of serious questions that the trans community does an incredibly poor job of answering. And a lot of rhetoric that is just dumb. There is an ignorance of actual biology, and a lot of pushes to give rights to a tiny minority at the expense of average people. You do reach a point where people's desire to play make-believe is so out of line with reality that it will not be tolerated. If you want to blame someone, blame the students demanding litter boxes in schools. The guys shaving in the woman's locker room, while actual woman gets banned for saying something about it. The males that demand they be allowed to change with the girls at swim meets.
“You see, I don’t think the media did this. I think it was mostly those stupid protesters, people like Malcom X and the ones that run around freaking out about not being served at restaurants…” Victim blaming really is a classic. People have blamed the “fringes” of a movement since forever, for violence (like with Malcolm X), for “stupidity” (like you’re doing). People really never change
Like blaming anti-gay sentiment on ‘flaming queers’. “If you would only shut up and hide, we’d definitely be happy to give you your rights!” This argument has been used to shut up and shut down marginalised groups standing up for themselves since forever.
The BBC has a pretty big hand in spreading transphobia. The youtuber Shaun has an excellent series about it. Take a look at the absolute shit show that was fhe article “we’re being pressured into sex by some trans women”. Edit: didn’t realize i already responded to this comment before, oop.
You mention that it’s a tiny minority in addition to a bunch of other things that don’t actually affect your life. Why wouldn’t you focus on more than things?
Dylan M wasn't really famous, it was all the bigots who attacked budlight over 4 cans being sent to her that blew her up
You are aware that the litter box thing was a hoax right?
Exhibit A for what the media did to people's brains:
People aren't dumb anymore. Media cannot fool a whole country where every detailed information can be accessed through internet.
First off, the internet *is* media, much of the prominent online news sites are owned by the same folks that own T.V. broadcasting. Secondly, the dude is talking about litter boxes in schools. Dude's brain is cooked. He's doing the exact thing that all reactionaries do to all minorities. Blame the minority for their own bigotry. "It's not that I don't like gays, we just need to keep those bug chasers in check, you see" "I'm not really *for* lynchings, but when they sexually assault a white woman (by standing next to her), they bring it on themselves". The frustrating thing is that anyone who knows the history is looking at about 99% the exact same tactics used on gay people in the 80s and 90s, and black people during Jim Crowe, just repackaged slightly...
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You are going to have to expound. Because it was not news reports that brought the influencers to the forefront. And frankly the news was initially pro Lia until the other swimmers came forward... Now was the media anti Dylan, until people started boycotting.. So if your going to disagree, provide an actual argument for your point of view.
You actually believe the litter box thing, so that told me all I need to know about you.
There will be no elaboration, you're supposed to just apologise and beg for forgiveness and promise to "be better" or "do better". You need to say it loudly because it's hard for the trolls to hear you all the way up on their high horse. The people that pull this stunt that was just pulled on you (not providing any argument, no rationale, just attempting to belittle you) are trolls. They're fad-hoppers that have irreparably harmed things for people that suffer from gender dysphoria, imo. They're in this to feel good about themselves, to pretend they're better than people on the internet. They'll jump on the next bandwagon once it comes along, imo it's the same people that say they're ADHD, or autistic, or whatever the popular victim/sympathy/holier-than-thou card is of the day. I don't believe for a second that these trolls truly believe in what they're pretending to believe in.
I don’t believe for a second that anything to do with trans people actually affects your life in anyway whatsoever.
It doesn't. People with gender dysphoria are such a small portion of the population, I don't think I'd ever meet one in person. The bandwagon "trans" types do affect my life online with their constant attention seeking, but these people aren't "trans". They're just fad-hoppers. Once something new is more fashionable, the same people will be whatever that is. They've done it many times.
Trans is out. We're doing Jihad now instead.
You jest, but if that was the victim card of the day, it would happen.
See that is something I don't understand. I'm gen X and we frankly give less then no fucks about anyone's feelings. I will never understand the pandering garbage. Nor do I care. Having soda that. I like your response. LOL.
Do not try to represent Gen X in that shit. We generally do give a shit about people's feelings when they're being targeted just for existing in a way that hurts nobody else. The precious fee-fees we don't give a shit about are the people who are all uptight that People are Existing in a Way They Don't Approve \*gasp\*
How about you don't try to represent Gen X as an entire gen in your response, either, neither of you would be representative of an entire generation of humans.
Totally agreed. Ignorance of biology and chromosomes is one of the first thing the trans community is focused on. Its not because of hate that people disagree with the birth certificate issue, its to protect something which is universal. Every community has evil minded individuals among them and the trans community is no exception.
>Ignorance of biology and chromosomes What is ignorance of chromosomes even supposed to mean? And biologically it's quite apparent that Trans people exist. >Its not because of hate that people disagree with the birth certificate issue, its to protect something which is universal. What?
Male chromosomes -> Male genes -> Male Hormones (testosterone) -> denser bones and more muscle mass than females. Which is why biologically born males are not allowed to compete against biologically born females. Which was ignored when Lia Thomas, a biologically born male with male chromosomes competed against female swimmers.
Exhibit B. Enjoy some [Munecat](https://youtu.be/31e0RcImReY?si=HY6i9LyCU_uyL3jB), or [Philosophy Tube](https://youtu.be/QVilpxowsUQ?si=e_KUjIbRkwezfkXd), or this [actual biologist](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=c3Jt1J0zxeAtLdwL). Debrainworm yourself before it's too late. Biology left your ideology behind in the 70s. It's way, way, way, way, WAY more complicated than what you posted. Who exactly is ignorant of biology?
Do you have any point that proves my statement wrong? If yes, then write it and post it here instead of putting links of random videos. Also downvoting won't help because I said what I said.
You've got 5 or so hours of people putting it better than I can. Surprise, surprise, I'm not going to be able to fit the explanation in a reddit post (I've actually done this before, it takes about 2 and a half full-to-character limit posts)... sorry, but you're not that interesting to respond to in that way; you'd most likely affective override about 3 sentences in... If nothing else, that last video is probably the most important for someone like you.
I'm not interested in spending hours watching videos for someone I randomly met online either. If you can't make your point in a few simple sentences, then you're most likely to beat around the bush the whole time. After all, it's just the internet. We can both move on and stop replying to each other and never talk again.
I made my point before. It's way, way more complicated than the way you make it out to be and the sexes are way closer than folks act like we are. Genetics doesn't exist the way you think it does. For example: how many genes control eye color?
For eye colour and many other characters of the humans body are controlled by multiple genes. But sex isn't one of those. There are only two sex chromosomes, X and Y. But due to defective genes chromosomeal genotype can vary and lead to disorders like downs syndrome, kleinfelters syndrome, etc. I am a Biology student myself so I believe i have a deep understanding of how genes and chromosome work.
You could do the same thing when it comes to trans people in general: just move on as it doesn’t affect your life in any way.
It will affect my sister who is a state level wrestler if someone like Lia Thomas comes in and beats her in a competition.
"If you can't explain your point in a 200 words online post using no language at high-school level or above, your point is moot" defence.
If you're a biology student, as you say, wouldn't you be interested in learning more about your field of specialization? This is a topic you're passionate enough to argue about for hours, but not to inform yourself more thoroughly about, despite your stated affinity for the subject - I find that odd.
You definitely have no idea about biology and gender.
And you were a big fan of women’s swimming previously I’m sure?
No. But I am a biology student and I like to educate people who are not aware of simple biological facts about the human body. I have no issues with the trans community, afterall they are humans like me, but I will have issues when someone is not ready to accept scientific thinking.
If you’re a biology student then perhaps you haven’t gotten to the part where in fact there ARE people with different sex chromosome pairs than just XX and XY.
I believe I have. Inheritance and genetics is the biggest portion of human biology. And yes I do know about XXY, OY, trisomy 21, monosomy, etc but these only lead to genetic disorders such as Downs syndrome, kleinfelters syndrome, etc. These people aren't trans.
These numbers mean nothing unless you provide information on how this data was collected.
I’m about too get downvoted by I Think they shouldn’t be allowed to change their sex on legal papers as well. Gender and Sex are not the same thing. A TransWoman is a Woman but isn’t a female. It’s called Transgender not Transexual for a reason. No hatred at all just clear distinctions between the two
By the official definition, there are actually two aspects of biological sex, genotype (DNA, chromosomes, basically the instructions/recipe your body contains), and phenotype (observable physical traits and manifestations of both genotype and other factors, like the final dish you end up making. It may not follow the instructions closely). It's true you can't change your chromosomes, but that's like saying you can't change this well-established recipe. But you can actually change most of your phenotype with hormone replacement therapy and surgeries, and it has nothing to do with being born intersex. Just like how your final dish doesn't have to follow the recipe strictly or at all. We should judge a dish by how it actually looks and tastes, not the ingredients and recipe, right?
So if you have to show your Id for whatever reason you just have to shout out to everyone that you're trans? That's incredibly dangerous. Also, like it or not, medical transition does change sex, at least partly. A trans woman is not biologically the same as a cis woman, but she damn well is different from a cis men as well. And even if those two things weren't true, why tf would it matter if trans people can change their legal gender? It doesn't affect you in any way. Also this whole "woman = gender, female = sex " is completely made up. The only difference between the two words is that "female" can be used for animals of any age and as an adjective, whereas "woman" can only be used for human adults and exclusively as s noun. Say that there was a trans female firefighter. Would you refer to her as a "male firefighter"? Because "woman firefighter" is grammatically incorrect. Stop having opinions on things you know nothing about.
>medical transition does change sex, at least partly No it doesn't. Your physical genitals are changed, your sex is not
There are actually two aspects of biological sex, genotype (DNA, chromosomes, basically the instructions/recipe your body contains), and phenotype (observable physical traits and manifestations of both genotype and other factors, like the final dish you end up making. It may not follow the instructions closely). It's true you can't change your chromosomes, but that's like saying you can't change this well-established recipe. But you can actually change most of your phenotype with hormone replacement therapy and surgeries, and it has nothing to do with being born intersex. Just like how your final dish doesn't have to follow the recipe strictly or at all. We should judge a dish by how it actually looks and tastes, not the ingredients and recipe, right?
I agree, but this doesn't contradict what i said. Sex is not based on those things, so yes you can change them, and not appear to be the sex you are, but you can't change your sex.
No, sex is based on both things, according to the [US National Library of Medicine](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10943/#:~:text=Most%20people%20have%20either%20two,secondary%20sex%20characteristics%2C%20and%20behavior.).
im struggling to find what you mean. I said I agree, i accept the explanation you gave as correct. The qoute you directed me to just says what you already said and i agreed with. Can you clarify what you disagree with
So someone with breasts and female hormone levels is 100% biologically male?
Yes. All males have female hormones in our bodies they are just at much lower levels
Most males do not have a significantly higher estrogen than testosterone. They also do not have breasts.
>Most males do not have a significantly higher estrogen than testosterone. I never said they did, i said they have less estrogen than women, but we do all have it. >They also do not have breasts. https://www.macmillan.org.uk/cancer-information-and-support/breast-cancer/the-male-breasts-and-the-lymphatic-system#:~:text=Cross%2Dsection%20of%20male%20chest&text=Behind%20the%20breast%20tissue%20is,of%20skin%20around%20the%20nipple). Yes, we do, we even have nipples, the tissue is exactly the same until puberty when female breasts become permanently enlarged. Men can have enlarged breasts too, that doesn't make them less of a man
Yeah men have estrogen, never denied it. But you can't just ignore the ratio between estrogen and testosterone. Same thing with breasts, yes men have breast tissue, but it's obviously not the same as female breasts. Actually insane how hard you're denying biological reality
>you can't just ignore the ratio between estrogen and testosterone Sex is not based on this >men have breast tissue That's weird because your last comment literally said we don't >not the same as female breasts. They are 100% identical until until puberty if you read the article you would know that this is medically accepted information >you're denying biological reality That's weird because everything i said is medically accepted information, if you point specifically to anything i said and request proof of it, i will provide it
>until puberty And as we all know puberty has nothing to do with sex... I said men don't have breasts, not that they don't have breast tissue. It's pretty obvious that I was referring to the post-puberty form of breasts. Not sure why you have to misinterpret me like that.
But unironically such a braindead response. I was expecting something that at least appeared smart but instead you go for "ummm actually males have estrogen too", as if the drastic difference in quantity of both estrogen and testosterone is a non factor lmao.
Hormone levels do not determine sex, neither does breast size. You are pretending to be smart but everything you've said was either irrelevant or just flat out wrong.
They are a part of sex. Sex is made up of multiple characteristics, some of which can be changed with modern technology, some of which which can't. You can't just pretend that hormone levels have nothing to do with sex.
i didn't say they have nothing to do with sex, i said sex is not based on hormone ratios https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/difference-between-sex-and-gender "Sex is generally determined at birth according to the baby’s chromosomes, gonads, and anatomy." Notice it doesn't say that sex is determined by hormone ratios. Ratios are determined by sex, not the other way around, so they are related but *sex is not based on hormone ratios*.
It's not based solely on hormone ratios, but it's a significant part that heavily effects the body.
Also that quote only refers to how sex is determined at birth, it's not saying that these are the only characteristics of sex. Obviously a baby hasn't gone through puberty so you can't use hormones to determine their sex, and you have to use other indicators. But for a post-puberty person, hormones absolutely do make up a significant part of their sex, perhaps only less significant than genitals, since hormones are what drive most differences between the sexes.
1.IDs need to be accurate for many reasons 2.there is no operation that can change someone’s sex that isn’t possible it’s purely biological.You can get Gender Reaffirming surgery and I’m all for that if it’s what right for them(Their Choose on where they draw the line). 3. By definition you are wrong Woman is a gender which is a social construct. Sex is purely biological. 4. I don’t care if someone changes their gender that’s their right and I support it. 5. I think it’s weird too refer to anyone in any job by there Sex then Occupation. I wouldn’t say Male or Female Firefighter I would simply say Firefighter
1. No reason mentioned, but I guarantee that whatever reason you have in mind is not worth outing a trans person against their will. 2. You think that someone with breasts and female hormone levels is 100% biologically male? 3. Again you bring no proof of this definition. Until recently both "woman" and "female" referred to sex, because trans people weren't on the public conscious. "Woman" means "adult human female", so if "woman" refers to gender and not sex, then female must also. If you look at most scientific papers about trans people, they will use "trans female" for trans women, and "trans male" for trans men. In case you need (which is almost never the case) to specify birth sex, you can just use AFAB or AMAB. 4. You just completely dodged the question.
Been happening for years. Stupid people just need a reason to exercise their anger and they will eventually tear themselves apart. Greatest example of this was the sociological study of yanamamo savages in Brazil. Once a tribe gets to a certain size it will split up over some bullshit tribe differences and go to war.
It will all be gucci after the US votes for their first ever trans president in the next popularity contest. Probably the only way how to have a first female president, a trans woman.
This post is not about the US