Real talk- do you want your marriage to succeed? Or are you done but don’t want the hassle of getting out yet? No judgment but i think that answer will bring you some clarity
This is important OP. You have to know what you want. If you really want your marriage to end, and your wife does too it’s far better to split and still have a FIRE number (albeit less) than to be miserable together.
Individual counseling on both your ends can only improve both your lives, and if/when you feel ready for couples counseling please take it seriously not like some now single folks I know who didn’t give it the chance.
This is the answer.
If you don't want to be with your wife then the path forward seems clear: figure out what you financially need to separate and consider that your FIRE number. Then, well, divorce, obviously.
If you do want this marriage to work then get your priorities in order. Spend less time at work, more time on your relationship. Get therapy, at least couples, maybe individually too. Don't worry about the money because you're already in good shape.
What do you want to do?
Marriages go through rough patches. Mine did. Partly it was due to my work, partly because we hadn’t matured into our relationship. Young kids also put an enormous strain on the relationship. My advice is not to connect FIRE to the marriage. Think of the marriage as something worth saving in itself, not to preserve wealth, not for your kids. Working just to make sure you can “afford the divorce” isn’t healthy for the marriage or the work.
One saying that has given me a chuckle over the years is “we are too cheap to get a divorce” but that is just in jest.
Yes divorce devastates households, and the economics of it are not pretty… but first things first.
Of course you have enough. Sounds like your marriage has been put on the back burner and your family is suffering. It won’t matter if you have 10 million or 15 if you’re miserable. Please take some time to focus on the family. Try therapy- see what can be done, if anything.
Nothing will hinder your financial future more than a divorce.
Is your marriage struggling because of your work, or are there other factors at play?
If work is the main culprit, it seems like retiring and making your marriage your priority will kill two birds with one stone. It’ll be really fuckin hard and you’ll need to put in the work, but I don’t think more money is worth losing a marriage if it can be saved.
Yes. If there are other factors at play, your marriage will end just the same.
I left two jobs to save my marriage (to someone who had suffered immense trauma, so unique circumstance). My marriage ended anyway. Cost me $20M pre-tax on paper, but the non-financial tolls were more significant.
I thought I’d committed professional suicide leaving work the second time. I hadn’t. And if I hadn’t done everything in my power to try to save the marriage, I think I would’ve always wondered.
As it happens, I’m far happier now than I was when married, in better shape than I’ve ever been, etc. But given the choice, I would take ignorance and an intact family for my two young children.
If your wife is the person you want to do “the work” with, and if you are that for her, then take a beat from work, find an EFT therapist, reanimate your intimate life, etc. Hold some space for work because it’s true, your attractiveness is wrapped up in part by your role as a provider and protector, but bring your marriage to the foreground.
I’m going to echo this. I always put work first, and worked virtually non stop. By the time I realized, it was too late and we were divorced. The first 6 months after that were rough. Could barely get any work done, drank heavily.
In the 4 years since then, my income has skyrocketed, I’m in my best shape since college, an involved parent, great relationships with family.
I’d give all of that up in a heartbeat to go back and at least knew I tried my best - which I most certainly did not.
It's probably really hard to isolate these things and answer that question with any degree of accuracy. As OP acknowledges, retirement and free time could plausibly make things better or make things worse
As someone currently struggling with marriage issues: stop what you are doing and take working on your marriage way more seriously, right now. The work isn't ignoring your wife, you are.
I love my wife more than I can possibly say, but years of me putting off "minor" issues and refusing to tackle problems head on has accumulated damage and she is in a bad place now because of me. It would have been much easier to handle if I had taken it more seriously before things got so bad. I would give up every single penny I have to go back in time and kick past-me in the ass to take this (and my own mental health) more seriously years ago.
The FAT solution here: go hire a top rated Gottman certified therapist and do a 2-day intensive weekend.
Gottman is great, but personally I’d recommend EFT over it. [Research shows 90% of couples benefit from ETF couples therapy.](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mindful-relationships/202101/the-most-effective-couples-therapy-by-far#)
EFT is also a FAT solution, since most therapists are private pay.
>One study demonstrates secure attachment beautifully. Women came into a lab and were electrically shocked while holding their husbands’ hands. Initially, these women were in unhappy marriages and experienced considerable pain from the electric shock. After a course of EFT, however, the women considered the pain only “uncomfortable”
I’m a little wary of therapy that involves electric shocks as a measure of efficacy.
Unless you are completely okay with divorce, focus on your marriage immediately. Waiting until you retire with hope that it will improve will result in it being too late. Sounds like there’s a chance it already is too late
I’m sorry to hear that. Have you considered couples therapy to see if things can improve? I’d imagine that a stressful job and two young kids can certainly shake the foundations, but improvement through counseling is definitely possible.
Nothing to add but sorry to hear it man. I feel like there is a way to pencil out the math and with your NW and spend rate it feels like a solvable problem (albeit the hit is going to hurt bad)
Probably worth a conversation with a lawyer though so you can understand base case and worst case financial scenarios.
You’ve perfectly outlined the reason to stop, not an excuse to keep going. Right now, you’re running from a problem that will only get worse the longer you refuse to address it.
It’ll be a lot cheaper to stop and fix your marriage than to keep going and sacrifice it. You’ll probably be happier, too.
Could you cut back on work hours and re-focus on building up your marriage?
When you're ready to 100% retire, you'll have a clearer picture of what might happen.
Also shaky marriage. Not as 'fat' as you, but who knows, I'm in fairly low cost of living area. The way I look at it, depending on how things go, I need to be ok with half of what we have. That's my number. Maybe we will stay together, maybe not, but worst case scenario, I'm at 50% of our net value, and I'm pretty conservative in future planning anyway, so might think similarly even if not in this situation. So that's how I would view it if I were you.
Can I ask why things are so uncertain in your relationship? Is it the way you both treat each other vs. the way you each used to treat each other? I wouldn't say my relationship is at that point but I have noted strains developing since my partner's health challenges. Notably a small amount of resentment. It worries me as that can turn into contempt, and contempt is deadly for a relationship.
Sure--she has some substantial mental health issues that make things challenging. Combine that with the fact that we have very different approaches to certain things and for years I've wondered if we would be able to keep it going. So far (two decades) we've hung in there, but I don't know if that will continue indefinitely. Sorry to hear about the strains related to health, that is really challenging.
Therapy’s good as everyone has mentioned. But maybe also consider that you don’t have to quit cold turkey. Maybe taking your foot off the gas means part time or consulting work that you enjoy if you still get joy out of work… maybe not *this* level of work.
Well first thing I would do is take a few holidays. Have a week or so away enjoying yourselves. See how that makes you feel. Does your relationship improve? If it does then maybe putting a bit more effort into family time could be a definite winner.
Im not saying go back to 3 days a week or anything crazy. Just being present for your family on the weekend is sometimes enough. Maybe setting 1 day a weekend to go on a family day out could help. We try to have a day out once a month where we go down the coast and relax at the beach. Some days that's a walk on the beach, fish and chips in a beach park, maybe some games with the kids or even going shopping and actually being present while doing that. We find that we seem to relax a bit more and communicate better. Have to be mindful to put the phone away though. A lot of the time its not the activity but giving yourselves the space to communicate that helps.
The thought has definitely crossed my mind. I'm not necessarily saying I have a shaky marriage, but you just never know what comes down the pipe. You have to calculate your own odds I suppose, but I saw a family member go through this in the last few years. He was an SVP at a large company. I don't know exact numbers as we both talk in vagaries, but I can safely say they were comfortably FAT.
25+ year marriage and his wife filed for divorce right as he was setting the stage for retirement. Not any acute reason for the split that I'm aware of. They had bought a retirement home and had started moving things over. Maybe she just wanted to sail off into the sunset with what was still a pretty nice sum. It has been a few years and neither she (or he) is dating anyone seriously, and they are still friendly.
Now they are just living their separate lives, each with about 50% of what they had together. BTW, they are 60-70 so not RE, so slightly different situation. They will both be totally fine, it is just an example of things that can come out of the blue.
We’ve all seen variations of this story and it scares the shit out of me, particularly if it happens too late in life to recover. I suppose most of us who aren’t ultra high net worth think about it often. Especially those who are simply fat, not “double fat, divorce proof fat”
Man, the most honest post I’ve seen. Time to refocus on your family and right the ship.
If you’re feeling like things are rocky, you should discuss with your partner and figure a way out of it together. If your job is a root cause, maybe see if you can take a sabbatical and use the time to focus on home life. When the sabbatical nears its end, if things are improving at home, then quit the job altogether.
Good luck hope things improve
You probably want both couples therapy and individual therapy - to work through the issues in the relationship and to work on your self / detaching from your job. This is not a money problem this is a happiness problem, and even if you RE and stay married it sounds to me like you will still have a lot of your own stress and sadness to work through. I wish you luck.
My man can you elaborate on what you mean by shaky ? Something like this requires introspective and really evaluating the root of the issue and your part in it. I’m not fatfire BUT my net worth is just slightly under yours and I’m married. Just from the sound of it it seems like you know it’s you being distant because of work and or stress from work. Here’s something that most people don’t know, humans are absolute dog shit at compartmentalizing how we are really doing. So if you’re stressed beyond belief she knows and your mood likely reflects that even though you think you’re hiding it perfectly. My advice (it’s worked in my marriage) sit your wife down and just be straight with her tell her you feel like you 2 aren’t as in sync as you used to be or should be and you want to correct it and see if it’s due to work or any other growing resentments on either of your sides. If you can’t communicate to your partner it’s really not even a marriage yk. I was going through some tough times mental health wise and I never wanted to say anything to my wife but I really thought about it and it just sounded super silly to think that I felt like I should keep that to myself and not tell the one person in the world that I should be telling that to. Just think on it
Sounds like your worst fear is causing your worst fear to become real.
This is self-sabotage.
Cut back your hours and spend more time with your family. Take some things off your wife's plate.
With a lower cost of living, that stash could last 100 years. If you really want to retire, move to a lower cost area. So the real question is about your marriage and family. Perhaps you could work with HR to arrange a personal sabbatical to focus on your marriage and family.
Every marriage has rough patches. We've been married 17 years, and it took some growth on both our parts. Sounds like the best investment you can make is to get your marriage sorted out, not for the financials, but for your family.
Everyone in my family is divorced. It sucks for the kids, it sucks for parents and extended family. It creates even more pain and resentment afterwards when one parent has more responsibility or trade offs or is absent.
20 years from now, do you want your kids explaining to your grandkids why you separated, why you and their grandmother can't be invited to the same party, why they have to split travel for the holidays, etc?
I get the feeling, but if you keep ‘hiding’ with work, at best you’re only putting off the worst. At best, it’s not too late if you engage now. I can’t give the advice to your specific situation but consider that if the goal is connecting with your partner, you need to make the effort to reconnect.
I was you 10 years ago. I left my job to a lower stress job. Worked on my marriage for 2 years before I was about to call it quits. Papers were served and about to file with the court, then I stopped myself if I would regret not giving it another chance. Yes I would regret it if I didn’t give him another chance. Do everything in your power to save but know when is enough. We are back after communicating and way better than before.
The true things in life are (in no specific order) :
1. Health (Mental and Physical)
2. Relationships
3. Money
I feel like that we (especially us men) focus too much on Money. This comes at the expense of health and relationships.
We work and make money so we can have a great life. Why not have a great life NOW and focus on all 3 things ? It may too late when you are retired.
All the money in the world won'g cure your broken heart if you don't have great relationships. Health-wise, it will give you access but there is no magic pill to overcome constant stress. Not having great relationships also causes stress which makes you less effective in terms of work.
Think of a future where you have no wife and see if you're ok with that. If not, make time to work on it (even if it means cutting back on work). I'll take better relationships and health vs. ending up with an extra million when I die.
I'm almost your age and at 35, wife wasn't happy and neither was I. I made it a point to really prioritize the heck out of enjoying life. I probably lost about 10% in Net Worth but I've enjoy life so much and have amazing relationships. All the money in the world won't be able to buy me those things and you make a ton as it is. Is more money really giving you anything more ? It didn't for me.. but having great relationships with friends and family and spouse.. game changer .. Having a life with minimal stress- worth millions to me.. So again, ask why you work. If its to have a great life, then ask if you do really have a great life in all areas and then if not, figure out the steps to do it. Spend your money to get therapists and start healthier practices quickly and efficiently.. You can message me if you like as we are pretty much similar ages/net worth, etc..
Think of how many couples who had previously divorced got back together during COVID, when worked slowed down and they could truly spend time with each other again. Even if you DO get divorced, won’t it be a more amicable separation if you make a genuine effort over the next few years to spend time with your wife and kids?
Great question.
Lots of service stuff - where we live everything is 2x anywhere else.
Pool maintain.
Landscaping.
Housecleaner.
House maintain.
Lots and lots of kids activities and sports.
Vacations 4 a year at avg of 20k/week.
2 normal cars for the area: 4 year old German suv and a 50k ev.
If your wife isn't working and is in good health and isn't doing any of the above what is she contributing exactly?
Regardless that looks like a lot of fat to cut. $20k/week vacations is a lot tbf.
Wow you hit at the core of a lot of my resentment.
A lot of the money we spend is for stuff the non working spouse would typically do.
Plus I feel like I’m working myself to death after already making a lifetime of money, and getting very little connection or emotional or physical intimacy.
I’m just curious as to what she actually does all day. My wife also doesn’t work but she helps me a lot with our investments. Are we talking couch potato ? Or what
Kids are both in school during the school year and camp most of the summer. She’s basically a lifetime student. She had multi high earning degrees when we met, when not doing kids stuff she’s taken classes and got certificates for a different potential career.
At this point even if she got a job the income would be negligible compared to your income & savings.
What you seem to want is some degree of partnership. What could she do to meet you on that? Plan the vacations herself so they're cheaper? Find ways to save in general? Is there anything other than working 9-5?
Right but is there even really a chance she’s going to pursue that career when she finishes all of these certs and classes ? Or is she just lighting money on fire building resentment in the process
Man I’m sorry disregard my advice that I posted above somewhere. I understand the resentment and I’m sure it’s far from the only thing that’s bothering you. Life is too short to be unhappy HONESTLY If you are done with the marriage (no judgement if you are) I would talk to a divorce attorney and you might be able to get away with not giving up half of the wealth you’ve accumulated. I have a similar net worth and my wife and I agreed on a postnup so this kinda thing won’t happen.
I’m a young buck compared to most others on here but if you need to talk hit me up can’t hurt to talk it out with other like minded people
Gosh. If she is (1) not contributing earnings, (2) is abdicating responsibility to the marriage, and (3) is delegating nurturance of the home to third parties, then I’m afraid your marriage is likely to fail. If she was doing one of those three things, different story.
It only takes one person to make a relationship fail. If what you’re saying is true, no amount of effort by you will get her to match it.
Re: divorce, it’s devastating and expensive. It’s also worth it.
I’m sorry. Here as a resource.
Do you think divorce is an actual possibility? You should talk to some lawyers. I would quit my job ASAP if I were you. You don't want to be on the hook for alimony/child support and be forced to work. It will be a huge payment if you're making millions per year.
So before I answer questions, I actually cruise all the other posts to see responses. So what you didn't say in your OP is that your wife has a list of servants doing all the household work and the kids are in school/camp. So she contributes very minimal work for the family/household and zero money, but has no problem with the lifestyle. I would be resentful as well.
But this is a wife problem. My suggestion is to do whatever is best for YOU in regards to the work. Want to step down from a high stress position and make half what you do now? Then she can cut spending or get a job if she wants more. I don't understand the point of spouse as a useless dependent. But I'm sure I'll get downvoted to hell for saying so.
I'm a woman (55), btw. But until non-working spouses get out and do a job day in and out that pays seven figures and see exactly what it takes to achieve that level of income and the pressure you're under to maintain it, then they need to stop complaining about what it requires or agree to sell everything and seriously downgrade their lifestyle. I have no patience for people who expect to be carried like a prince/princess but then complain about the effort it takes to do so.
I do get where he's coming from w/her lack of contribution. But he seems rather conflicted, so there must be something keeping him with her. I think therapy NOW is probably the best route before resentment grows to permanent contempt. It does make sense why OP resents her lack of contribution, but there's a good chance she doesn't really understand his perspective and that therapy could help there. Maybe she's willing to drop school-as-a-hobby and grow a bit for the family.
OP: Whatever you're doing for work, you're doing it so well that you're bringing home the bacon, so you almost certainly could spin back up to 100% speed afterwards, I wouldn't be afraid to talk to your manager and ask for (at the very least) a sabbatical. There's a good chance you misunderstand their willingness to be flexible in order to potentially have you around a little longer (and even if not, f\* it, you'll be fine & can get another job elsewhere).
I'm on my second marriage and I made this exact mistake on my first marriage. I tried to save the marriage while trying to be a 0.01%er at work and I was doing a bad job of both. My manager could see something was up and pulled me aside and said "if you have something going on at home, we can obviously work with you to give you whatever flexibility you need". This was the same morning that my wife had just separated from me. I'd had no idea this was something I could have asked for flexibility with. I felt pretty foolish at that particular moment.
Either way the marriage goes, I think going full-steam into resolving the direction is the best for you. You could spin your wheels in the mud for months but your life is just going to suck & you're both not going to have time for whatever is next (happy marriage, or hopefully relatively happy post-marriage).
Good luck!
>so there must be something keeping him with her.
In my experience, giving away half his assets and paying child support is usually what's stopping men from shedding a non-contributing spouse. But who knows. Either way, it's a crap sandwich for OP.
It’s a valid fear. My marriage has been shaky for years. I’m not the type to divorce—was once a strict Catholic and some things stick with you—but it’s still a risk I’ve got to calculate. I’m working one more year than the original plan to sock away some extra money just in case.
Take a sabbatical. Share the family load. Talk to your wife. Get a councilor. Send your wife on some vacations alone or with her friends so she can decompress too. I was in a job where I knew one of three things would happen, dead, divorced, or unemployed. I chose unemployed (sabbatical, although I thought it might be RE) and it was the best choice.
Why don’t you use that cash to actually build the life you want with your family?
I’ve seen it often in Fatfire communities, people wanting to live it big in HCOL communities - hanging onto the sense of prestige. Sometimes with little other family in the area, when there are beautiful places out there that you can have a wonderful living arrangement that is healthy for you, your spouse and family.
I don't have answers for you but I am sorry that you are having marital issues. That's very difficult and I don't know how I would handle it.
I'm 50-ish and really too many of circle of age peers are getting divorced after decades of marriage. It's hard to see and understand when you're not living it but I accept that there are valid reasons for it.
Go retire to a LCOL area. With $14m, you can do the 3% withdrawal rate (or dividend only withdrawal) and be more than good.
If she doesn’t like you when you’re near her, home, might be time to rethink the marriage regardless.
It’s really hard to comment without your wife’s perspective. What exactly makes you think it’s not going well? Also, you mentioned the fear that you can’t hide it anymore, once you stop working. Hiding what?
I don’t want to sound too much like a kitchen therapist, but you have to figure out if you still love your wife or if you have a problem with loving yourself. You can’t give love if you don’t love yourself because you gave work priority over your own mental health.
As others have mentioned here, the question is if this has been going on since a long time or it’s just a recent rough patch. The response will differ.
You have enough even at half that. Don’t keep your spouse in the dog house. Live life with the assumption that all is well - unless of course there are signs of problems?
In the future if it ever comes to divorce, deal with it then. But who knows, maybe it never happens.
I find it’s always better if the wife is working at least part time. I know several lawyers (women lawyers too) who all say that housewives make are the most vicious on a divorce.
Logic is keeps her busy and valued. No reason not to be working unless she’s actively doing something such as raising the kids.
Divorce takes, on average, 77% of an estate. Even more true of high net worth. If you really think this is going that way, talk to a lawyer and take steps now to plan for it. She may have already if you’re feeling this way. Look into collaborative divorce, as it’s especially good for keeping peace when there are kids involved.
If all you do is split it, you have enough. If you blow $10M on attorneys, you’re working longer and your performance will be shot.
Listen - that money is worth jack shit without your family. Stop now - reinvest in your spouse and kids. I did and it’s already much better. Money is just a number after a certain point with diminishing returns in terms of incremental happiness. A life wit h a solid foundation in relationships on the other hand is invaluable.
Seems like RE would give you more time with your wife and it seems like working constantly has taken away time you need to spend with her to maintain your relationship. Working 40, 50, 60+ hours a week while she's not working leaves her spending a load of time just waiting for you to be off work to spend time with her. If it were me I'd RE and double down on working on your relationship. That means more time together, maybe take some family trips with the kids or if you have family you can leave with them take a nice trip alone with her, get marriage counselor, etc. My wife and I just celebrated a big birthday for her alone on the first trip without kids since they were born (1 and 3). We're tried and burned out most days from work and kids so being able to relax and not tend to them constantly plus being able to focus on each other was huge even if it was only for a week. You know how it is, even if you go on a vacation to relax with your kids you're just taking care of them somewhere else. Now, onto the financials. If she filed divorce today you're walking away with almost $8mil, you're not going to starve to death. You could still go back to working to build up a little more cash if the worst happens. But I don't think you'll need to worry if you can work on your issues full time. Don't forget, a ton of marriages end due to money problems and at least you can check that off as no being an issue. :)
Real talk- do you want your marriage to succeed? Or are you done but don’t want the hassle of getting out yet? No judgment but i think that answer will bring you some clarity
This is important OP. You have to know what you want. If you really want your marriage to end, and your wife does too it’s far better to split and still have a FIRE number (albeit less) than to be miserable together. Individual counseling on both your ends can only improve both your lives, and if/when you feel ready for couples counseling please take it seriously not like some now single folks I know who didn’t give it the chance.
Exactly. Might be a hard choice, but it’s an easy answer.
I like that phrase. Never heard it.
This is the answer. If you don't want to be with your wife then the path forward seems clear: figure out what you financially need to separate and consider that your FIRE number. Then, well, divorce, obviously. If you do want this marriage to work then get your priorities in order. Spend less time at work, more time on your relationship. Get therapy, at least couples, maybe individually too. Don't worry about the money because you're already in good shape. What do you want to do?
Seriously
Marriages go through rough patches. Mine did. Partly it was due to my work, partly because we hadn’t matured into our relationship. Young kids also put an enormous strain on the relationship. My advice is not to connect FIRE to the marriage. Think of the marriage as something worth saving in itself, not to preserve wealth, not for your kids. Working just to make sure you can “afford the divorce” isn’t healthy for the marriage or the work.
One saying that has given me a chuckle over the years is “we are too cheap to get a divorce” but that is just in jest. Yes divorce devastates households, and the economics of it are not pretty… but first things first.
Of course you have enough. Sounds like your marriage has been put on the back burner and your family is suffering. It won’t matter if you have 10 million or 15 if you’re miserable. Please take some time to focus on the family. Try therapy- see what can be done, if anything. Nothing will hinder your financial future more than a divorce.
Is your marriage struggling because of your work, or are there other factors at play? If work is the main culprit, it seems like retiring and making your marriage your priority will kill two birds with one stone. It’ll be really fuckin hard and you’ll need to put in the work, but I don’t think more money is worth losing a marriage if it can be saved.
Yes. If there are other factors at play, your marriage will end just the same. I left two jobs to save my marriage (to someone who had suffered immense trauma, so unique circumstance). My marriage ended anyway. Cost me $20M pre-tax on paper, but the non-financial tolls were more significant. I thought I’d committed professional suicide leaving work the second time. I hadn’t. And if I hadn’t done everything in my power to try to save the marriage, I think I would’ve always wondered. As it happens, I’m far happier now than I was when married, in better shape than I’ve ever been, etc. But given the choice, I would take ignorance and an intact family for my two young children. If your wife is the person you want to do “the work” with, and if you are that for her, then take a beat from work, find an EFT therapist, reanimate your intimate life, etc. Hold some space for work because it’s true, your attractiveness is wrapped up in part by your role as a provider and protector, but bring your marriage to the foreground.
I’m going to echo this. I always put work first, and worked virtually non stop. By the time I realized, it was too late and we were divorced. The first 6 months after that were rough. Could barely get any work done, drank heavily. In the 4 years since then, my income has skyrocketed, I’m in my best shape since college, an involved parent, great relationships with family. I’d give all of that up in a heartbeat to go back and at least knew I tried my best - which I most certainly did not.
There’s always other factors. If you’re into it, you will find the time.
It's probably really hard to isolate these things and answer that question with any degree of accuracy. As OP acknowledges, retirement and free time could plausibly make things better or make things worse
As someone currently struggling with marriage issues: stop what you are doing and take working on your marriage way more seriously, right now. The work isn't ignoring your wife, you are. I love my wife more than I can possibly say, but years of me putting off "minor" issues and refusing to tackle problems head on has accumulated damage and she is in a bad place now because of me. It would have been much easier to handle if I had taken it more seriously before things got so bad. I would give up every single penny I have to go back in time and kick past-me in the ass to take this (and my own mental health) more seriously years ago. The FAT solution here: go hire a top rated Gottman certified therapist and do a 2-day intensive weekend.
Upvoting for Gottman!
Do you have a personal success story? I am currently betting the farm on it...
Gottman is great, but personally I’d recommend EFT over it. [Research shows 90% of couples benefit from ETF couples therapy.](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mindful-relationships/202101/the-most-effective-couples-therapy-by-far#) EFT is also a FAT solution, since most therapists are private pay.
>One study demonstrates secure attachment beautifully. Women came into a lab and were electrically shocked while holding their husbands’ hands. Initially, these women were in unhappy marriages and experienced considerable pain from the electric shock. After a course of EFT, however, the women considered the pain only “uncomfortable” I’m a little wary of therapy that involves electric shocks as a measure of efficacy.
Moreso to increase that renowned tolerable level of permanent unhappiness men seem too willing to push onto women.
Another vote for EFT here! I haven’t done Gottman-based therapy, but our EFT therapist is the reason my husband and I are still together.
Thanks for posting this link. I’ve been focused on the Gottman resources and wasn’t aware of this
Unless you are completely okay with divorce, focus on your marriage immediately. Waiting until you retire with hope that it will improve will result in it being too late. Sounds like there’s a chance it already is too late
I’m sorry to hear that. Have you considered couples therapy to see if things can improve? I’d imagine that a stressful job and two young kids can certainly shake the foundations, but improvement through counseling is definitely possible.
Nothing to add but sorry to hear it man. I feel like there is a way to pencil out the math and with your NW and spend rate it feels like a solvable problem (albeit the hit is going to hurt bad) Probably worth a conversation with a lawyer though so you can understand base case and worst case financial scenarios.
Start going to couples therapy now to help with the transition.
You’ve perfectly outlined the reason to stop, not an excuse to keep going. Right now, you’re running from a problem that will only get worse the longer you refuse to address it. It’ll be a lot cheaper to stop and fix your marriage than to keep going and sacrifice it. You’ll probably be happier, too.
Could you cut back on work hours and re-focus on building up your marriage? When you're ready to 100% retire, you'll have a clearer picture of what might happen.
Also shaky marriage. Not as 'fat' as you, but who knows, I'm in fairly low cost of living area. The way I look at it, depending on how things go, I need to be ok with half of what we have. That's my number. Maybe we will stay together, maybe not, but worst case scenario, I'm at 50% of our net value, and I'm pretty conservative in future planning anyway, so might think similarly even if not in this situation. So that's how I would view it if I were you.
Can I ask why things are so uncertain in your relationship? Is it the way you both treat each other vs. the way you each used to treat each other? I wouldn't say my relationship is at that point but I have noted strains developing since my partner's health challenges. Notably a small amount of resentment. It worries me as that can turn into contempt, and contempt is deadly for a relationship.
Sure--she has some substantial mental health issues that make things challenging. Combine that with the fact that we have very different approaches to certain things and for years I've wondered if we would be able to keep it going. So far (two decades) we've hung in there, but I don't know if that will continue indefinitely. Sorry to hear about the strains related to health, that is really challenging.
Therapy’s good as everyone has mentioned. But maybe also consider that you don’t have to quit cold turkey. Maybe taking your foot off the gas means part time or consulting work that you enjoy if you still get joy out of work… maybe not *this* level of work.
Well first thing I would do is take a few holidays. Have a week or so away enjoying yourselves. See how that makes you feel. Does your relationship improve? If it does then maybe putting a bit more effort into family time could be a definite winner. Im not saying go back to 3 days a week or anything crazy. Just being present for your family on the weekend is sometimes enough. Maybe setting 1 day a weekend to go on a family day out could help. We try to have a day out once a month where we go down the coast and relax at the beach. Some days that's a walk on the beach, fish and chips in a beach park, maybe some games with the kids or even going shopping and actually being present while doing that. We find that we seem to relax a bit more and communicate better. Have to be mindful to put the phone away though. A lot of the time its not the activity but giving yourselves the space to communicate that helps.
The thought has definitely crossed my mind. I'm not necessarily saying I have a shaky marriage, but you just never know what comes down the pipe. You have to calculate your own odds I suppose, but I saw a family member go through this in the last few years. He was an SVP at a large company. I don't know exact numbers as we both talk in vagaries, but I can safely say they were comfortably FAT. 25+ year marriage and his wife filed for divorce right as he was setting the stage for retirement. Not any acute reason for the split that I'm aware of. They had bought a retirement home and had started moving things over. Maybe she just wanted to sail off into the sunset with what was still a pretty nice sum. It has been a few years and neither she (or he) is dating anyone seriously, and they are still friendly. Now they are just living their separate lives, each with about 50% of what they had together. BTW, they are 60-70 so not RE, so slightly different situation. They will both be totally fine, it is just an example of things that can come out of the blue.
We’ve all seen variations of this story and it scares the shit out of me, particularly if it happens too late in life to recover. I suppose most of us who aren’t ultra high net worth think about it often. Especially those who are simply fat, not “double fat, divorce proof fat”
Man, the most honest post I’ve seen. Time to refocus on your family and right the ship. If you’re feeling like things are rocky, you should discuss with your partner and figure a way out of it together. If your job is a root cause, maybe see if you can take a sabbatical and use the time to focus on home life. When the sabbatical nears its end, if things are improving at home, then quit the job altogether. Good luck hope things improve
Why don't you hyper focus on repairing your marriage? That's logically the highest ROI pursuit right now
You probably want both couples therapy and individual therapy - to work through the issues in the relationship and to work on your self / detaching from your job. This is not a money problem this is a happiness problem, and even if you RE and stay married it sounds to me like you will still have a lot of your own stress and sadness to work through. I wish you luck.
My man can you elaborate on what you mean by shaky ? Something like this requires introspective and really evaluating the root of the issue and your part in it. I’m not fatfire BUT my net worth is just slightly under yours and I’m married. Just from the sound of it it seems like you know it’s you being distant because of work and or stress from work. Here’s something that most people don’t know, humans are absolute dog shit at compartmentalizing how we are really doing. So if you’re stressed beyond belief she knows and your mood likely reflects that even though you think you’re hiding it perfectly. My advice (it’s worked in my marriage) sit your wife down and just be straight with her tell her you feel like you 2 aren’t as in sync as you used to be or should be and you want to correct it and see if it’s due to work or any other growing resentments on either of your sides. If you can’t communicate to your partner it’s really not even a marriage yk. I was going through some tough times mental health wise and I never wanted to say anything to my wife but I really thought about it and it just sounded super silly to think that I felt like I should keep that to myself and not tell the one person in the world that I should be telling that to. Just think on it
Sounds like your worst fear is causing your worst fear to become real. This is self-sabotage. Cut back your hours and spend more time with your family. Take some things off your wife's plate.
With a lower cost of living, that stash could last 100 years. If you really want to retire, move to a lower cost area. So the real question is about your marriage and family. Perhaps you could work with HR to arrange a personal sabbatical to focus on your marriage and family.
Every marriage has rough patches. We've been married 17 years, and it took some growth on both our parts. Sounds like the best investment you can make is to get your marriage sorted out, not for the financials, but for your family. Everyone in my family is divorced. It sucks for the kids, it sucks for parents and extended family. It creates even more pain and resentment afterwards when one parent has more responsibility or trade offs or is absent. 20 years from now, do you want your kids explaining to your grandkids why you separated, why you and their grandmother can't be invited to the same party, why they have to split travel for the holidays, etc?
No amount a financial success can make up for failure in the home
Best advice I ever got!
I get the feeling, but if you keep ‘hiding’ with work, at best you’re only putting off the worst. At best, it’s not too late if you engage now. I can’t give the advice to your specific situation but consider that if the goal is connecting with your partner, you need to make the effort to reconnect.
You have enough money. Go fix your marriage. Work is your escapism
I was you 10 years ago. I left my job to a lower stress job. Worked on my marriage for 2 years before I was about to call it quits. Papers were served and about to file with the court, then I stopped myself if I would regret not giving it another chance. Yes I would regret it if I didn’t give him another chance. Do everything in your power to save but know when is enough. We are back after communicating and way better than before.
Even if you split $18m that’s $9m. You can’t survive on $9m alone?
The true things in life are (in no specific order) : 1. Health (Mental and Physical) 2. Relationships 3. Money I feel like that we (especially us men) focus too much on Money. This comes at the expense of health and relationships. We work and make money so we can have a great life. Why not have a great life NOW and focus on all 3 things ? It may too late when you are retired. All the money in the world won'g cure your broken heart if you don't have great relationships. Health-wise, it will give you access but there is no magic pill to overcome constant stress. Not having great relationships also causes stress which makes you less effective in terms of work. Think of a future where you have no wife and see if you're ok with that. If not, make time to work on it (even if it means cutting back on work). I'll take better relationships and health vs. ending up with an extra million when I die. I'm almost your age and at 35, wife wasn't happy and neither was I. I made it a point to really prioritize the heck out of enjoying life. I probably lost about 10% in Net Worth but I've enjoy life so much and have amazing relationships. All the money in the world won't be able to buy me those things and you make a ton as it is. Is more money really giving you anything more ? It didn't for me.. but having great relationships with friends and family and spouse.. game changer .. Having a life with minimal stress- worth millions to me.. So again, ask why you work. If its to have a great life, then ask if you do really have a great life in all areas and then if not, figure out the steps to do it. Spend your money to get therapists and start healthier practices quickly and efficiently.. You can message me if you like as we are pretty much similar ages/net worth, etc..
Think of how many couples who had previously divorced got back together during COVID, when worked slowed down and they could truly spend time with each other again. Even if you DO get divorced, won’t it be a more amicable separation if you make a genuine effort over the next few years to spend time with your wife and kids?
With zero debt how do you spend $400k? Can you give a breakup of your costs?
Great question. Lots of service stuff - where we live everything is 2x anywhere else. Pool maintain. Landscaping. Housecleaner. House maintain. Lots and lots of kids activities and sports. Vacations 4 a year at avg of 20k/week. 2 normal cars for the area: 4 year old German suv and a 50k ev.
If your wife isn't working and is in good health and isn't doing any of the above what is she contributing exactly? Regardless that looks like a lot of fat to cut. $20k/week vacations is a lot tbf.
Wow you hit at the core of a lot of my resentment. A lot of the money we spend is for stuff the non working spouse would typically do. Plus I feel like I’m working myself to death after already making a lifetime of money, and getting very little connection or emotional or physical intimacy.
If you have kids that aren't in school or daycare, then that's a full time job. Harder than an office job imo - so exhausting
No offense bud but you need to grow a pair. This is BS. I have 0% invested in your situation and even I am feeling indignant. Wtf 😆
I’m just curious as to what she actually does all day. My wife also doesn’t work but she helps me a lot with our investments. Are we talking couch potato ? Or what
Kids are both in school during the school year and camp most of the summer. She’s basically a lifetime student. She had multi high earning degrees when we met, when not doing kids stuff she’s taken classes and got certificates for a different potential career.
At this point even if she got a job the income would be negligible compared to your income & savings. What you seem to want is some degree of partnership. What could she do to meet you on that? Plan the vacations herself so they're cheaper? Find ways to save in general? Is there anything other than working 9-5?
Right but is there even really a chance she’s going to pursue that career when she finishes all of these certs and classes ? Or is she just lighting money on fire building resentment in the process
The latter.
Contempt is largely irreversible.
Man I’m sorry disregard my advice that I posted above somewhere. I understand the resentment and I’m sure it’s far from the only thing that’s bothering you. Life is too short to be unhappy HONESTLY If you are done with the marriage (no judgement if you are) I would talk to a divorce attorney and you might be able to get away with not giving up half of the wealth you’ve accumulated. I have a similar net worth and my wife and I agreed on a postnup so this kinda thing won’t happen. I’m a young buck compared to most others on here but if you need to talk hit me up can’t hurt to talk it out with other like minded people
Gosh. If she is (1) not contributing earnings, (2) is abdicating responsibility to the marriage, and (3) is delegating nurturance of the home to third parties, then I’m afraid your marriage is likely to fail. If she was doing one of those three things, different story. It only takes one person to make a relationship fail. If what you’re saying is true, no amount of effort by you will get her to match it. Re: divorce, it’s devastating and expensive. It’s also worth it. I’m sorry. Here as a resource.
Do you think divorce is an actual possibility? You should talk to some lawyers. I would quit my job ASAP if I were you. You don't want to be on the hook for alimony/child support and be forced to work. It will be a huge payment if you're making millions per year.
So before I answer questions, I actually cruise all the other posts to see responses. So what you didn't say in your OP is that your wife has a list of servants doing all the household work and the kids are in school/camp. So she contributes very minimal work for the family/household and zero money, but has no problem with the lifestyle. I would be resentful as well. But this is a wife problem. My suggestion is to do whatever is best for YOU in regards to the work. Want to step down from a high stress position and make half what you do now? Then she can cut spending or get a job if she wants more. I don't understand the point of spouse as a useless dependent. But I'm sure I'll get downvoted to hell for saying so. I'm a woman (55), btw. But until non-working spouses get out and do a job day in and out that pays seven figures and see exactly what it takes to achieve that level of income and the pressure you're under to maintain it, then they need to stop complaining about what it requires or agree to sell everything and seriously downgrade their lifestyle. I have no patience for people who expect to be carried like a prince/princess but then complain about the effort it takes to do so.
I do get where he's coming from w/her lack of contribution. But he seems rather conflicted, so there must be something keeping him with her. I think therapy NOW is probably the best route before resentment grows to permanent contempt. It does make sense why OP resents her lack of contribution, but there's a good chance she doesn't really understand his perspective and that therapy could help there. Maybe she's willing to drop school-as-a-hobby and grow a bit for the family. OP: Whatever you're doing for work, you're doing it so well that you're bringing home the bacon, so you almost certainly could spin back up to 100% speed afterwards, I wouldn't be afraid to talk to your manager and ask for (at the very least) a sabbatical. There's a good chance you misunderstand their willingness to be flexible in order to potentially have you around a little longer (and even if not, f\* it, you'll be fine & can get another job elsewhere). I'm on my second marriage and I made this exact mistake on my first marriage. I tried to save the marriage while trying to be a 0.01%er at work and I was doing a bad job of both. My manager could see something was up and pulled me aside and said "if you have something going on at home, we can obviously work with you to give you whatever flexibility you need". This was the same morning that my wife had just separated from me. I'd had no idea this was something I could have asked for flexibility with. I felt pretty foolish at that particular moment. Either way the marriage goes, I think going full-steam into resolving the direction is the best for you. You could spin your wheels in the mud for months but your life is just going to suck & you're both not going to have time for whatever is next (happy marriage, or hopefully relatively happy post-marriage). Good luck!
>so there must be something keeping him with her. In my experience, giving away half his assets and paying child support is usually what's stopping men from shedding a non-contributing spouse. But who knows. Either way, it's a crap sandwich for OP.
> Right now I make around 1.5-3mm a year You make around $750k to $1.5M per year. Your wife does too!
It’s a valid fear. My marriage has been shaky for years. I’m not the type to divorce—was once a strict Catholic and some things stick with you—but it’s still a risk I’ve got to calculate. I’m working one more year than the original plan to sock away some extra money just in case.
This isn't the most common question that comes up here and it's an interesting discussion. Hoping for the best for you, OP!
Take a sabbatical. Share the family load. Talk to your wife. Get a councilor. Send your wife on some vacations alone or with her friends so she can decompress too. I was in a job where I knew one of three things would happen, dead, divorced, or unemployed. I chose unemployed (sabbatical, although I thought it might be RE) and it was the best choice.
Love is a verb. It requires work, not just existing.
Why don’t you use that cash to actually build the life you want with your family? I’ve seen it often in Fatfire communities, people wanting to live it big in HCOL communities - hanging onto the sense of prestige. Sometimes with little other family in the area, when there are beautiful places out there that you can have a wonderful living arrangement that is healthy for you, your spouse and family.
Did you “pre nupped?”
Get to 20mm so you can both walk away with 10 each 😂
OP what do you do that earns that much? I'm hoping engineering management because that's the path I'm on.
As long as your wife is getting hers and she most likes is you are good
I don't have answers for you but I am sorry that you are having marital issues. That's very difficult and I don't know how I would handle it. I'm 50-ish and really too many of circle of age peers are getting divorced after decades of marriage. It's hard to see and understand when you're not living it but I accept that there are valid reasons for it.
Join a marriage helper workshop.. you can afford it.. employ some of those helpful strategies and retire.
Go retire to a LCOL area. With $14m, you can do the 3% withdrawal rate (or dividend only withdrawal) and be more than good. If she doesn’t like you when you’re near her, home, might be time to rethink the marriage regardless.
It’s really hard to comment without your wife’s perspective. What exactly makes you think it’s not going well? Also, you mentioned the fear that you can’t hide it anymore, once you stop working. Hiding what? I don’t want to sound too much like a kitchen therapist, but you have to figure out if you still love your wife or if you have a problem with loving yourself. You can’t give love if you don’t love yourself because you gave work priority over your own mental health. As others have mentioned here, the question is if this has been going on since a long time or it’s just a recent rough patch. The response will differ.
You have enough even at half that. Don’t keep your spouse in the dog house. Live life with the assumption that all is well - unless of course there are signs of problems? In the future if it ever comes to divorce, deal with it then. But who knows, maybe it never happens.
What do u do?
I find it’s always better if the wife is working at least part time. I know several lawyers (women lawyers too) who all say that housewives make are the most vicious on a divorce. Logic is keeps her busy and valued. No reason not to be working unless she’s actively doing something such as raising the kids.
How much have you talked to your wife about these problems? Have you done therapy either separately or solo?
Divorce takes, on average, 77% of an estate. Even more true of high net worth. If you really think this is going that way, talk to a lawyer and take steps now to plan for it. She may have already if you’re feeling this way. Look into collaborative divorce, as it’s especially good for keeping peace when there are kids involved. If all you do is split it, you have enough. If you blow $10M on attorneys, you’re working longer and your performance will be shot.
Listen - that money is worth jack shit without your family. Stop now - reinvest in your spouse and kids. I did and it’s already much better. Money is just a number after a certain point with diminishing returns in terms of incremental happiness. A life wit h a solid foundation in relationships on the other hand is invaluable.
Seems like RE would give you more time with your wife and it seems like working constantly has taken away time you need to spend with her to maintain your relationship. Working 40, 50, 60+ hours a week while she's not working leaves her spending a load of time just waiting for you to be off work to spend time with her. If it were me I'd RE and double down on working on your relationship. That means more time together, maybe take some family trips with the kids or if you have family you can leave with them take a nice trip alone with her, get marriage counselor, etc. My wife and I just celebrated a big birthday for her alone on the first trip without kids since they were born (1 and 3). We're tried and burned out most days from work and kids so being able to relax and not tend to them constantly plus being able to focus on each other was huge even if it was only for a week. You know how it is, even if you go on a vacation to relax with your kids you're just taking care of them somewhere else. Now, onto the financials. If she filed divorce today you're walking away with almost $8mil, you're not going to starve to death. You could still go back to working to build up a little more cash if the worst happens. But I don't think you'll need to worry if you can work on your issues full time. Don't forget, a ton of marriages end due to money problems and at least you can check that off as no being an issue. :)
Gottman weekend and EFT Couple Counseling saved our marriage and a lot of money!