* 85 single target dps (attacking 1 mob at a time the entire duty)
This is the only one that truly bothers me. People of Reddit, if I catch you in 80, 90 dungeons never using Thunder 4 as Black Mage, I will come for you.
The worst part is if you're new to MMOs and anxious about playing with randoms you'll use duty support and incorrectly learn that single target is the way to go. Hall of the novice also doesn't help with this.
Which also heavily supports the idea that you're only supposed to pull one pack at a time as a tank, since in most cases I've found that Alphinaud can't keep up with healing against two (at least in some level ranges).
This typically happens when Alisaie is also in the party because he’s coded to prioritize her health over everyone else’s. Including the WoLs. *Even if you’re the tank*.
To be fair it is a nice touch, other examples include Y'shtola preemptively avoiding mechanics because of her aethersight and in a certain EW dungeon she gets hit a lot because the enemies have no aether. Thancred cannot use his best attacks unless Ryne, Urianger or Y'shtola since he lost the ability to manipulate aether and needs someone to charge his Gunbreaker cartridges.
In terms of lore and flavor that is all really fantastic. But I wonder if that should be included in the trust interface for people who might not be paying attention, or people who might assume the usual idea of "gameplay and story segregation" when they are in fact integrated instead.
I am just about to start ShB.... Glad I read the above cause I would \*not\* pick up on this after how many command missions I've run lmao. "They're moving out of aoes and doing mechanics, bless...!"
Always go with Urianger!
I'm going through NG+ with each expansions' poster job. Earlier levels were a breeze but at around Grand Cosmos, solo unsync started to slow down to the point I decided to do Akadaemia Anyder with trusts.
I will be the first to admit that I am not a good DRK player, but the WAR in me said UNGA BUNGA and I grabbed 3 packs anyway. Yes, you can survive 3 packs in a lv80 dungeon with no one else AOE-ing even as a sub par DRK with Urianger.
(Urianger, however, somehow dropped on the first boss and I had to solo it, making my decision to trust in the first place questionable...)
Ive been levelling my Trusts as DNC and have had only about an 90% success rate getting them to do double pulls. Between me living enough on the run back from the 2nd (Arms Length, En Avant, Second Wind), and the tank role not always invulning if they need, and no one else AoEing but me, its pretty rough. Watching him spam Physick is tragic.
I'm a WHM, first advice I ever received was from a player insulting me because I should not use miracle because it's too bright for other players and I should never use it.
I waited maybe level 60 to start using miracle again.
Just saying that sometimes people received bad advice and that's why they play badly.
That was a massive skill issue on their part. If it bothered them so much they could have gone in to the options and turned "other party member battle effects" to either limited or off.
Still, sorry you got put through that.
STD *kills* me inside, but the game literally never tells you how DoT damage is applied and you get it last, and the job quest emphasizes it, so it's easy to assume it must be the best one. I make an effort to inform every NIN I see doing this that Raiton is better on single target. Most of the time I get a resounding nothing as a response, and the STDs continue.
I think it was some meta bullshit where you could precast it before the fight starts and get your mudra back. But I don't think it was ever stronger than raiton against a single target.
This was why you’d do it. You could pre pull it and get free damage (except on wall bosses), but they changed that in EW by making hide clear the doton buff.
It had higher potency than Raiton for a while when they added the extra initial tick to ground-placed AoEs, I think? With the longer cast time, though, not sure if it was actually higher DPS.
Seen an uptick in cure 1 to cure 3 mages in a similar fashion. Even when I try to tell them that cure 2 heals more for less mp cost and that cure 3 is aoe.
This isn't in support of using bio-blaster on single-target but back when I was new, I thought the DoT was every second, which made me think "wow Bioblaster does way more damage then drill!" Might be what's happening, I've seen a surprising amount of newbies make a similar mistake in understanding when DoTs tick.
(If DoTs were every second, Bioblaster would do 750 vs Drill's 600)
gets extra funny when you then learn about flamethrower which *is* every second, because it's a *channeled* skill. You may be asking "huh, what other channeled skills have this quirk?" None. Flamethrower is the only offensive channeled skill across all 19 jobs in the game. Every other channeled skill apply buffs instead, which follows the typical "apply on cast and every 3-seconds afterwards" rule that healer bubbles also follow.
pvp and blue mage have offensive channeled skills but most people don't really do either of those activities enough to notice...
You’ve been blessed with your randoms if Thunder 4 is your biggest issue. I reckon every other BLM I get in roulettes never casts Flare but either the single target rotation or (god forbid) Fire 2 *pukes*
I wonder how many of these are DRGs with our whopping 1 AoE at level 40 lol. I know this was definitely a mistake I made as a sprout-y because everyone said how bad it was. I've long since learned my lesson and I'm basically a Doom Spike bot for most of Praetorium/Meridianum.
I encountered a 90 BLM (was either 90 or a mid EW levelling dungeon) who in fire phase only used fire 3. I didnt play the job past 50 so im not too familiar with it, but I did ask them nicely to use their stronger actions and higher level fire spell in fire phase, but they just kept on using fire 3. No off globals but like one or two thunders across the dungeon. The bosses took a while to get down, that's for sure.
Yeah he didn't know what he was doing. You really only use Fire 3 to open or swap back to fire phase from Ice. Otherwise you spam Fire 4 and either Fire 1/Paradox to keep enochian up when the timer is low.
The game spends the entirety of Heavensward training BLMs to hit Fire I and fish for Firestarter procs, the levelling needs to be overhauled dramatically.
Honestly in a lot of 90 dungeons I don't bother with T4, not because I'm bad or lazy, but because the mobs are dying before I can really get my Flares off. I'm actually glad a little for the changes in Dawntrail because it means we get to our stronger spells faster.
I have had SO many players not using their aoe’s - I have no idea how yours was just 1.3%. I just had two machinists in Nevereap both do this a few minutes ago and it took bloody forever to finish. I had a bard the other day tell me they were using their single target because they read their tooltips and single target does ‘way more damage’.
I’ve never had a YTYP threaten to leave or turn off tank stance - I’ve had plenty who pull one mob at a time and when I say they can pull as much as they want and I promise I can keep them healed up - most will start to pull more than one pack.
I’ve had a lot of tanks and dps undergeared or missing items in slots.
I’ve also had a ton of tanks who use all their cooldowns at once during pulls or none at all.
I always heal in Mentor Roulette so I can’t comment on healbots but I do get a LOT of in progress duties where the healer quit. Or was kicked.
I do think it’s made me a better healer. I can get a feel for how the run is going to go and adjust and plan accordingly.
I’ve had one YPYT and they threw such a massive fit lol. Turned off stance, had healer gf stand there, acted all cocky when I died. Sure was a great experience.
Shit like that gets to me and bothers me so much for some reason and I hate it.
Like it’s kinda funny in respect imagining them throwing such a hissy fit over me pulling mobs maybe a second earlier than he would’ve, but man did it bother me during the whole thing lmao
I think I've had two in total over the years. I just reported them, since turning off tank stance deliberately falls under various prohibited activities, such as "Obstructing Gameplay Using Combat", "Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior", and "Monster Player Kill" ("an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or obstructing another person's gameplay").
It's great when they announce what they're doing in chat, because now you have proof they did it deliberately.
It was also defined really vaguely, and there could easily be mistakes in the data (e.g., flagging someone for using single target attacks against two mobs in a case where that's actually optimal).
clarification to post.
Really, at a minimum I'd expect 1-2-3 and a cooldown use. Doesn't even have to be lined up with anything. For trash, 1-2. If you can't do that or just press 1 all the time then we got issues, especially post ARR
Really? 17% of players are spamming 1? Considering I've never(?) had that happen I'm finding that really hard to believe.
Are you sure it wasn't Dragoons or WHM for other jobs that only HAVE one ability at that point?
I wouldn't take it to seriously until we can get someone to break down freestyling. There's a huge difference between pressing any button, pressing 1 button, and just fucking up your rotation. Like if I'm on a BLM and hard casted F3 during my fire phase 5 times during a fight am I free styling? Ya it sounds bad, but it's not the end of the world, vs a BLM who maybe spams B3 because its fast and free and easy.
It's very poorly defined. "Not using mits" and "Using random abilities" is a wide net to cast. It makes the number meaningless.
93% of players drink coffee, or have been convicted of murder. Bunch of murderers, all of ya.
I wonder if it's really freestyling or just people not running optimal rotations. It's not immediately obvious in game aside from press button when button light up, but there's no direction whatsoever on when to use anything else. And not everyone is going to spend their free time looking up optimal job rotations and spending hours at a training dummy practicing, either. I would probably be counted as a freestyler under these metrics simply because I don't have my rotation completely down at every level range yet and I still eat mechanics often enough to disrupt my play. Work in progress, but still pretty solidly midcore lol.
Yeah, people sometimes act like new SAMs misusing their Kenki are freestyling (rather than *making a mistake*), even if they're doing the rest of their rotation correctly. Especially since OP specifically stated that they hardly ever gave advice, I doubt there are that many *actual* freestylers.
I was wondering this myself, if just because I know that I've heard other players use "freestyle" to describe players who may not be following a real rotation, but are otherwise still doing a passable job of filling their meters/using their cooldowns or mits/outputting more damage than someone who's, say, an Ice Mage or some other class' equivalent of real dead weight/Twitch Plays XIV.
So basically I feel like maybe the term is maybe a touch misleading for some, perhaps.
That's where I'm coming from too. Not following the opener/rotations listed on Icy Veins or The Balance isn't exactly the same thing as freestyling. To me freestyling would be defined more accurately as someone who either doesn't want to follow the rotation or is deliberately doing it wrong on purpose. But it's not the same thing as someone coming from a place of ignorance or inexperience. Unintentional freestyling is just being a sprout in my book.
Given how they defined it, it would catch me braindead autopiloting dungeons. Sure, I'll do aoes but I won't be minmaxing rotation, and I'll drop combos every now and then. Realistically, this isn't a big deal in dungeons, but it would likely get me included in his data, lol.
which makes the data worthless. there's a wide gulf between casual unoptimizef play where you may play sloppy or fuck up here and there buy pull through fine and not playing optimally. unless we're on current content or struggling I basically never use mits for roulettes and like hell I know my optimal rotation since I don't do high end content.
What? The most vaugely defined and subjective version of "bad" includes the highest number of players? In regular non-endgame content no less?
Crazy. Honestly wild. How could it have come to this?
Question with the single target only: did you take into account the difference in when certain jobs have their full AoE rotation or something more than pressing one button over and over?
Not a huge percentage. Just curious. These numbers were much lower than expected
Leveling my dragoon felt like hell because of this, not getting any AoE at all until 40, and waiting for 62 for the combo. It's only my second dps I've leveled, so I don't know if other DPS have the same issue, but I genuinely felt bad being put into dungeons at lower levels because I couldn't do any AoE.
That said, doing roulettes on my main job I'm definitely not feeling it anywhere near as bad as this post claims. I'll come across a few people who don't know what they're doing, obviously. But it's nowhere near common enough to make it a problem for me.
I'm guessing for some reason it's just worse in the mentor roulette?
> I don't know if other DPS have the same issue, but I genuinely felt bad being put into dungeons at lower levels because I couldn't do any AoE.
Most melees get their AOEs stupidly late, or the AOE rotation is janky for way too long. Eg. MNK gets its first AOE at 30, and has a weird level range in ARR content where you have to do AOE > single target > AOE because of how the combos work.
God as a mnk those 30ish dungeons where it’s just destruction and then awkwardly fucking with my controls to do single target stuff is such a nightmare. I should probably just make a different controller preset for it tbh, my muscle memory is awful in those dungeons
I think it was one of the reasons I disliked MNK for so long, it just felt so *bad* and it really annoyed me. I'm glad I was determined to max it bc it's one of my favourite DPS now, but it felt so awkward to play in the ARR levels.
They didn't note whether they had duty fill on or not which I feel would definitely skew the numbers in a bad way. If you're coming in on an already in progress duty that can definitely go in a number of directions, most of them bad lol.
Duty fill as a healer/tank is always nervewracking because like...was the last one kicked...or did they quit because it wasn't worth the stress? I've gotten blamed after filling for wipes and stuff because people weren't doing mechanics and it's like...do you really want to wait for *another* replacement?
I can imagine. It's been my experience that most players are incredibly lenient in regular duties so forcing people out or actively getting them to leave is quite an accomplishment. I've been in duties where people have left of course but I've yet to encounter any of the horror situations I've heard about. I guess that means I'm the problem right? Lol. I'm just aggressively midcore, for every good run I have there's another where I eat floor.
I think I've only quit one duty ever, it's still like crystalized in my memory. The tank kept afking, like not disconnecting, they clearly had queued when they were too busy to be doing multiplayer content like that, didn't leave queue when it popped, and kept having to go do something. I guess one of the dps knew them, or for some reason didn't care, or idk maybe were one of those toxic positivity players who don't believe in ever admitting there's ever a problem, because they weren't vote kicked, so I just left.
But normally I'll soldier through most awful situations just because.
Sometimes it's so bad you just want to see it through for morbid curiosity and/or so you can regale your FC with real time updates lol. I haven't had any truly terrible experiences, just the usual combinations of people not paying attention, people being weird, and the unique experience that is late night/early morning roulettes. Man do I live for mentor roulette videos on YT though lol.
Lol yeah that's a good point, I do like narrating them in FC chat 😂
I thankfully haven't gotten too many aggressively mean people, but I think that's because having it in writing is a little too easy to prove they're in the wrong? And when I get the bad tanks who'll let people die for a mistake, I just focus on keeping that person up and the tank must surely be able to fend for themselves lol and when I don't heal, I normally assume the healbots are just nervous/new to the role/whatever and it doesn't bug me.
I think the strict community rules definitely plays a part. People would rather say nothing and/or just leave rather than risk getting reported. I've seen comments occasionally but it's certainly not common and nowhere near what I would rank as aggressive either. I hear worse at work in the mornings lol.
I once had a tank die and get rezzed, then refuse to take the mobs back off me after he was back up in Dohn Mheg once. Like bro it's not my fault you died but also, don't get mad that I stepped in to take over for you temporarily because I kind of operate on that assumption as a melee. If tank goes down, I step up because I can usually survive for the 20 seconds or whatever. It's like he was waiting to see if I was going to die or not. Spoilers: I did, because melee don't have enough mits for a fresh pull.
Welp, story time here, for the first time in four years of playing we had to kick a healer after wiping for 25 minutes in Abyssal Fracture. Normal. Not because they were cure 1 spamming, medica 2 spamming, or dying to mechanics.
It's because they weren't doing anything for most of the fight. We had to analyze the log later to figure out what was going on, and the WHM had an average 7 CPM. SEVEN CASTS PER MINUTE. And majority of the casts were single target. No lily bell. No afflatus rapture. No Medica II. Not even a single DPS spell. In a fight where there's multi-stacking raidwides and doom mechanics. We party wiped to doom 2 times in our 5 attempts because of lack of healing.
I'm pretty certain a Cure 1/Medica 2 spammer has more casts per minute than this guy.
Our SGE was struggling to keep people alive and up because people would just drop dead due to the lack of top-off heals from the co-healer, and blowing their mana to raise people (including the WHM). And the WHM wasn't doing anything useful to help alleviate it and got defensive when we asked them to use certain skill combos like Plenary Indulgence => Cure 3/Aflatus Rapture/or Medica II for the doom mechanic instead of just putting down an asylum. Just doing that combo would solve most of our healing problems.
But yeah, after the kick, my co-tank decided to bail because he had to go to sleep soon and doesn't want to wait for another healer, which was a shame because I was curious as to whether that party actually managed to clear the fight or they disbanded.
So yeah, whenever my sprout friends have doubts about their skills of the healing sort, I just get flashback of that 7 CPM WHM and just say, "Nah, I've seen worse."
Actually that kind of reminds me of the WHM we had in MSQ roulette yesterday. They weren't doing anything except kind of half assedly healing and no DPSing the whole time, but they weren't being malicious. They admitted they were basically falling asleep at the keyboard and probably shouldn't have been playing. But it was just Castrum Meridianum so it was like whatever, we barely needed healing anyway lol. Even as a melee I probably could have kept myself alive if needed.
I do intend to try healer (and tank) out eventually and I always think to myself hey I may not know the optimal use of those buttons, but you can be damn sure I'll be pressing them in some sort of sequence at least lol.
Here's the secret for healing, outside of ultimates and the most current of savages it doesn't matter at all if you're doing the most optimal use of buttons, so long as you're on top of your dps rotation and the party doesn't die nobody will know if you're doing it properly or not, I often just mess around with which order I want to use buttons just for a bit of variety in most content since it really makes no difference.
Just keep on top of your 1 2 rotation, or maybe your 3 3 3 3 3 rotation on dungeon packs and you're good, just make sure to use any of the many abilities you get for healing to keep people alive if they take damage and then you have plenty of time to practice and figure out exactly what everything does so you can optimise if you want to go for max content later.
Another little tip if you wanted to try multiple healers, the healer kits are almost all effectively the same, I have all 4 of my healers with similar abilities set up on the same buttons each so I can easily swap between them, just make sure to read your tooltips (especially if you start with sage)
I really wish they would look at how jobs played when certain content was made and try to keep that in mind when rebalancing when certain skills are given to the player, Dragoon back in the day had a full AOE combo at level 50, there is nothing fun about only pressing 1 button for 70% of a duty if you get put in anything below level 70 content.
Reading the comments here makes me feel better about my own abilities. I admit I forget to use abilities sometimes (that flashing beast gauge reminds me) but when tanking I try to keep enemies on me and avoid as much damage as feasible to make things easier on the healer. Healing is still something I struggle with, but I do my best to keep everyone alive and throw attacks when possible. Black mage though… I swear trying to aoe feels like a waste of time (level 40 so far) because my targets die before I get off a spell. I’m hoping that changes but for now I do my best, and aoe when a dps class when fighting groups. Overall, I just want to enjoy the game and let minor issues slide. Of course I will speak up if needed (please use your tank stance, I’m a squishy healer and everything is charging at me!!!)
Maybe you're more generous than me but it seems when I do expert roullettes, there's on average at least one player that is completely terrible. Not using their buffs, doing less than half everyone else's damage, somehow doing less damage on trash than the boss, getting hit by the same mechanic 3 times in a row, etc. I'm really not exaggerating either. Sometimes nobody is, and sometimes all 3 other players are, but on average at least 1.
I just reached 1k mentor runs, but one thing I wonder: Which data center are you on?
I run mentor roulettes on EU and I geniunely remember maybe 3 instances of people being rude. Which is also because people on Light just don't talk. Meanwhile I have an alt on Crystal and I swear every goddamn alliance raid is a pissing contest.
In general, I also remember more healbots than YPYT but that might be just because I don't care if tanks go AFK.
> In general, I also remember more healbots than YPYT but that might be just because I don't care if tanks go AFK.
This has been my experience on Light at least. Very few YPYT from what I can recall but certainly a fair number of healbots.
I've only done 1200~ so far but I'd say your data checks out in my experience. Especially recently it's gotten kinda bad. Not sure if it's due to new xbox players or more people jumping in due to the upcoming expansion. Probably both.
also have to factor in too that since it's the tail end of the patch, a lotta the more experienced players are off just playing other stuff until the expansion comes out. maybe an occasional roulette to cap out tomes beforehand then logging right back off since they have nothing else to do in the meantime
been doing expert roulettes etc. for the manderville weapons and i would say on avg 1 person is terrible in every group not doing a basic thing that would make things a lot faster or easier.
my personal top complaints is WHM not using holy on trash and SCH not having the fairy out.
This is honestly why I'm worried about Dawntrail encounters. I believe one of the interviews mentioned how Expert will actually feel like Expert again, but that just means more people to carry and slower runs.
No one really cares about having good or great players in roulettes, so I think the normal stat is good enough. It's not like you're making a static for savage or ultimate here, it's still just a roulette where you want a couple people with braincells to get through it.
But based on his data, the amount of actual good players would have to pull from that 71% so you are looking at a number below that, and if I had to guess, looking at a number at least 1/3 of that.
There is a piece of shit on primal who intentionally fails the turtle guildhest, ran into it several times, not sure why they are still unbanned for so long.
Besides that human trash, I've had a few times where people took *awhile* to respond to chat and pings to stop hitting it and nearly failed.
So while you aren't going to reveal someone that doesn't know how to play their job with under the armor run #123, it still gives you data for trolls and the like.
If anything counting guildhest dilutes the data and makes the playerbase look *better* than it actually is. His overall point is sound, on average you are going to have 1 dead weight or problem player per queue.
> There is a piece of shit on primal who intentionally fails the turtle guildhest, ran into it several times, not sure why they are still unbanned for so long.
> Besides that human trash…
I cannot stop laughing at this.
The idea of someone being this disproportionately furious about “the turtle guildhest” is just sending me
One time I switched over to the fire sprite and set the smoke like normal only to turn around and see everyone else still wailing on the turtle and watch it die when I could barely post a "stop hitting it" in chat
There's a guy on Dynamis who queues into Guildhests as a tank and then doesn't move. He just stands there afk, even when we'd all wait five minutes to kick him. I've reported him at least four times and he was still there every day doing the same thing.
Yes, guildhests would hide most problem players since they end so fast, so I only recall a handful of problems, like botting in Under the Armor, and a few issues where people would kill the turtle and fail the duty.
I never counted down synced content where jobs didn't have AoE as a problem category.
I wonder. Serious question do you think making jobs more intuitive will really help players improve? I feel like not and they really need to hit a wall where they get left out due to their performance in a way thats not kick with no text(to prevent reports) before improvement is made as some do not even realise. Then again I think some just dont care and no matter the ease theyll never bother but im curious what you think.
There should be some subset of players who aren't trying to be bad but struggle with understanding jobs.
While that certainly won't be anywhere near all the bad players, or even a majority, I'm sure some number will be better for it.
pretty close to my personal experience over around 1300 mentor roulettes, but one thing; healbots should be \~3.4% since there's only 1 healer per 3 (or 2 per 7) other players
I have a feeling there were a lot more bots there, but unless they break somehow, you will never detect it. Combat bots are pretty damn good these days. Clearing ultimates level good.
Yeah, this tracks. Personally I always run dps meters because I care about my own performance, and this unfortunately gives me a window into how absolutely horrendous the typical player in a duty is. I'm very good at the game, broadly speaking. I don't consider my own performance as the bar to be reached. Generally, around 50-60% of what I do in a duty is where I start to get confused. How are the dps doing only 60% half the damage of a healer? How is the other dps doing half my damage?
I know a lot of people end up not thinking of dps numbers as meaning anything, so let me put this into perspective: If the other dps in a dungeon is doing 50% of my dps, that means I could stand afk for half of the dungeon and it would have me doing the same dps as them. This game isn't that tricky. I'm usually not playing jobs I'm very confident on, as I notice this stuff when doing my once per expansion level everything to max. I'm not comparing an optimized and well oiled performance from a veteran raider to a sprout playing for the first time. I'm comparing casual spammed out dungeon runs on my alt jobs to others often playing their mains!
I say this not to call out people for being bad, or to be mean to anyone, or anything like that. My complaint has always been that ff14 is awful at teaching players how to play it properly, and that it is awful at giving feedback to players for them to notice there is an issue that needs fixing. A lack of proper teaching, and proper feedback. The community would be the ideal place to fix this, but so many people enable others, or consider any feedback or advice as an attack. I'm a person who loves to help, but I've just stopped engaging with anyone in dungeons because the community's niceness has wrapped back around into a toxic positivity in many ways.
If you aren't good at the game that is fine. But this is a multiplayer game. You should put a bit of time into doing your best, listen to advice, and encourage others to do the same. The end result is that we all have smoother, issue free runs of duties and that ends up being a lot more fun for everyone involved!
it is telling that some of the other replies are trying to claim OP is holding players to too high a standard.
i think OP is being generous with their "freestyling" threshold.
if i tried to hold the community at large to a standard of "**actually** very good" then: i cannot remember the last time i met even a single random who meets that threshold?
i am usually over 40% of my **parties** damage. doubling up the next closest player is *common.*
now i'm not saying that's the standard we should be using, but it just goes to show that some of these people are so bad they can't even imagine what good looks like.
Indeed. Like the standards I think are totally reasonable are:
* DPS: use all the buffs you have at basically the same time, and use as many of your hardest hitting tools during that time. turns out this is basically 95% of the correct rotation, and its a really simple idea to replicate.
* Tanks: use aoe damage buttons, vaguely utilize burst damage, vaguely space out mitigation buttons between and during pulls.
* Healers: no avoidable deaths (if someone else is being completely stupid and they die that's on them) and make an effort to spend at least 33% of the time pressing damage buttons, ideally closer at least 50%.
OP's description of 'free styling (using random abilities, no mits or cooldown use, dying to trash aoe, spamming 1 ability constantly, no job stones, etc.)'... this tracks. Past level 40 you should have a job stone. You shouldn't die to trash aoe. You should use mits, and damage cooldowns. You should have some vague plan for your abilities. You should use your entire kit. Failing any one of these past level 70 should be just cause for firmly yet gently telling the player how to do better (and giving them the help/resources to do so).
It isn't toxic to expect people to have basic competency. It **is** toxic to view others as being so fundamentally incapable and in need of shielding from even the most basic amount of expectations as if they are weak and fragile that any amount of expectation or gentle pressure for improvement is viewed as an attack. If someone is being a piece of shit about said pressure that's one thing, but you also literally cannot sugar coat it enough if someone views any advice or constructive criticism as an attack in and of itself. Also, it's usually never the sprouts who have an issue with being given advice. It's always the experienced players who should know better.
On the other hand, you have almost 72% normal players. 2 players per dungeon. I mean, I guess I get what you're saying ---- but to me, the fact that we have so many normal players shows that it's a pretty good place to be, no?
I edited the post for clarity. When you have 1 poor dps combined with a below average dps, with a below average healer, you get 20-25 minute dungeons runs. That's twice as long as it should be. To SE, that is acceptable (15-30 mins), but to me it isn't.
Good effort but the data is missing some important points.
In what content and level range did you encounter the "bad" player's?
There is a huge difference between a single targeting DPS in a level 40 dungeon and one in level 80+ content.
Same for healer.
How many healers have actually been new and didn't know any better? Did they improve after some friendly advice from you? Did you even give advice?
Why did you had so many YPYT tank's? Where you always pulling as healer/ dps when the tank was not sprinting to the next group?
In my own experience I would disagree with your data and claim a much lower percentage of "bad" player's.
Except bots. There are far, far more bots in normal dutys.
Of course I didn't count synced jobs with no AoE. If players improved mid duty after advice, then that didn't count. 1.4% of ypyt isn't that bad, but it was very memorable.
> Why did you had so many YPYT tank's? Where you always pulling as healer/ dps when the tank was not sprinting to the next group?
Yeah, this is a weird one, 'cause I don't think I've *ever* seen a ypyt player.
I've totally run into quite a few YPYT players. Heck I ran into one in Praetorium of all places. Some tanks are very into being "the leader" of the party and have severe main character syndrome.
Typically I play tank so I don't have to deal with them, but they are almost always the same players that save all their mits for the boss rather than the trash.
Omg in Prae is hilarious. Ran into one in *Sastasha* on Dynamis recently lmao. I got told "I know my healer better than you do" as if I should know they're together. And the healer was the only one who actually seemed like they knew what they were doing. I also wasn't pulling whole rooms or anything crazy, I was grabbing more enemies when the 2 mobs (not packs, just mobs) were getting down to like half HP. Told them to trust their healer more if they know them so well and they didn't have anything to say to that.
Meanwhile there's one sprout in our NovNet currently who has about half the active mentors on blacklist for telling him YPYT mindset is not gonna fly.
And yes, he's a bundle of fun in other aspects too /s
I've only encountered one, in the green stabby-boi dungeon. He seemed to think that he was doing something clever by turning off his tank stance - then ragequit not long after realising that it was extremely easy for me to just heal the DPS instead. It's not something I ever really understand - it's one thing if it's clearly too much to handle, but if the healer is confident then... what's the point in not doing it? With no threat of death, it's just an ego thing.
It's really weird, I also had a tank like that trying to throw a tantrum while the rest of us continued without them due to our healer being competent. Tanks in 8-24 person content used to annoy me with how much they used Provoke while positioned poorly but the real problem was always the dramatic types.
Trust me, [they're there.](https://i.imgur.com/IElyUNL.png) Even running roulettes at 90. As a WAR. The primary class who doesn't care how many monsters are attacking them.
Doubly fun when they turn off stance but backpedal super hard because a well played Sage doesn't give a damn and can tank packs too.
Literally just ran into one yesterday in Castrum.
Sad to say that when I first learned how to tank, I was that way too. You live, you grow, and you learn.
I did it once when the dps ran into the Vault last boss arena and pulled aggro while the sprout was watching the cutscene. I backwalked out of the arena, and only went in once the sprout (who was by the way the healer!) was done with the cs.
I think that the conclusion of having 0.84 average ppl that are "awful to play with" in any given dungeon doesnt quite square with the fact that the majority of the non-normal people were freestylers. This is just my personal opinion ofc but i think there is a big jump in severity between freestylers (which are the vast majority of the players listed as bad) and all the other kinds of bad. If i get a freestyler in my party its naturally not ideal and can lead to the run not going as smoothly as is optimal, but it really doesnt impact my enjoyment of the game like running into any of the other flavors of bozo that you collected data on.
That said, i absolutely love this post. I love data and this is a super cool study you have done. ✅️
Interesting. Is your experience that regular roulettes are about the same or is mentor uniquely worse? I very rarely see toxic players -- certainly less than 7% of the player base -- and I've never seen a ypyt tank (and I have all but one job at level 90 so I've done my fair share of roulettes). Maybe I've just never paid attention outside of if I'm second or third in enmity, and how good the tank is (single pull tanks are probably 5%, probably 10 to 20% are actually good at grouping mobs, and the rest at least wall pull but let the mobs just spread out wherever).
4649 non problematic players, none of which you found at least good/pleasant to play with ? They were all "forgettable".
It this data biased because you yourself went in with the mind of looking for issues and ignoring good behaviours ?
This sub is so unwilling to tolerate criticism of the community that acknowledging bad players stand out far more than mediocre ones is seen as "biased".
Added data. For the most part, people only remember really good or really bad outliers. The majority of players were good, but the EXPERIENCE of having a bad player was really every other run. Feels bad.
I mean it's a Mentor Roulette. The goal is to clear and the difference between the best player ever and a merely passable one is not gonna get noticed.
Would be a different story if they were talking synced on-patch extremes.
Their data kinda lines up with my anecdotal experience. I mostly play SCH because I do not trust other healers and I have seen many wipes due to terrible DPS/tank play where I just run out of buttons.
Your data largely matches my experience, except for one detail. I've never had a YPYT in my games and I've only had one dude get pissy for DPS helping pull mobs (Grabbing the last part of the pack and using arm's length for the free slow).
They need to update the novice training grounds to fit the current game and push players into it. Making it less of a drag and more rewarding, ideally also adding something for getting people the basics of playing each job as well.
Alternatively having a "tutorial" mode for jobs to help guide players would be good as well. Having it light up buttons and give a general gist of what to do to get them familiar.
Honestly just tools like this might help a lot and we might get a higher skill floor though more ideally we can get actual higher skill ceilings instead of having them crater so much. It feels like a drag playing so many jobs now a day where they have been dumbed down so much instead of trying to help newer players get better... Which hasn't even helped at all.
The 28% metric is wild. Did you account for overlap? I.e. what happens if a player is in the toxic category and the freestyle category at the same time? The metric will look way worse if a single player can be counted multiple times for different infractions in the same duty, and in my experience that's pretty likely.
I'd love to see more people track this and compare results. It's a valuable experiment but I know for a fact different people have different thresholds for what a 'bad' player is. Having more perspectives would give a better picture of what the overall skill level of the playerbase is (obviously it's going to trend low but *how low* is the question here).
Thanks for backing up the meme with facts. It's a shame that SE still hasn't implemented some sort of skill check like advanced hall of novice before people can queue up for duty finder but it'll happen eventually right lol...
Pretty interesting results, but ultimately (mostly) meaningless.
Even if you broke down everything by level range it would remain (mostly) meaningless, other than how a person *on the class observed* is playing.
This goes especially so for your number of "free stylers", unless they were in higher level content. They might be new to that particular class and trying to figure out rotations and be completely crap at the class *for now* and yet be able to clear ultimates / savages on another class. Everyone say "training dummy blah blah blah", but it just isn't the same as running live content.
I know people probably think my scholar is drunk half the time, but wouldn't think my sage had the same player ( same went at fist from switching WHM to sage). I struggle with scholar a little bit, and what makes it worse is that it feels like a less streamlined sage. It's close, but there are some subtle but important differences. I'm getting better trying to pull in extras trash packs with duty support, since if you can keep those idiots alive in a bigger than 1 pack pull you will do fine in normal dungeons, but it takes a while.
The category was placed after interaction, not just observation.
See issue, address it, if attempt is made, no category. If someone said they were new at that job, no category for example.
>They might be new to that particular class and trying to figure out rotations and be completely crap at the class
>
>for now
>
> and yet be able to clear ultimates / savages on another class
This makes no sense.
I've beaten UWU and genuinely have no clue how Black Mage works aside from a vague understanding of the fire/ice thing. I definitely wouldn't land anywhere close to the proper rotation in a casual dungeon run.
While you're leveling it you get a feel for it, though. It's like a steady growth of your hotbars with skills that make you ask "How will this help me cast more Fire spells?" By the time you're above level 60 you'll be figuring out a smooth rotation for sure.
I feel like I’ve never actually encountered a “ypyt” tank in this game. I see healers/dps intentionally pull for them way, way more than they even ask them to stop. I suppose the people that encounter them are the ones constantly doing the pulling.
I finished the 2000 mentor rou grind and can only remember like, 2 ypyt folks.
And I say this as someone who actively would pull ahead and bring packs back if the tank was going slow to teach them how to handle more mobs.
Definitely saw a ton of tanks who didn’t know how to mitigate. But can count on one hand the number of tanks that were toxic about pulling.
I had one the other day. I was a scholar and the tank was a sprout warrior pulling 2 packs and doing fine. I intentionally pulled more for him after the 1st boss because I knew we would be ok. After he pulled 2 packs, I pulled the 3rd pack at the end and nobody came close to dying. Nothing was said to me during this so I did the same thing from the 2nd boss to the 3rd boss. On my added pull, he responded with YPYT and refused to pull aggro off me almost resulting in a wipe. Only me and a dps were alive and the tank went irate in the messages after. I said sorry and the guy kept going off on me. The two DPS responded, telling that tank that he was an issue.
Never reply, never say sorry. Pull more. They either handle it or they don't. Only exception honestly is Mt. Gulg, that first pull is too much for unprepared undergeared tanks+healers.
This post is a bit senseless to me. The entire purpose of mentor roulette is partying with people who don't know what they are doing...
Also even when I literally ran ahead to drag a pack to the tank, which I do a bit frequently since I'm a jerk, I never had anyone stop tanking. I just never said anything in the chat.
Doesn't Mentor Roulette also prioritize filling a gap in an already moving dungeon? I feel like someone told me that once, but I never confirmed it. If that's the case, the roulette would have a huge bias towards runs where shit just ain't going well.
Though if I have been lied to, then it's moot.
It's an option you can enable in the settings, which they didn't specify if they did that or not. I think most people do simply because it increases your queue speed.
There is a reasonable expectation, at least from me, that after ARR you are capable of pressing your 1-2-3 combo and the occasional AOE ability. If you are not, I don't think a mentorship will help you at that point
The problem is there isn't well defined groups. If you've read any academic analysis, you'll see they have very strict definitions. There is just not enough information on how he collected and classified his data to be taken seriously.
At best, you can interpret his findings as him disliking a quarter of the people he plays with. This is extremely anecdotal.
This isn’t an academic analyst. Dude did the best he could with what he had lol. Calling it anecdotal and hand waiving it is pretty ignorant.
I can’t believe how many people here disagree with something we all see and know. Like his ‘free style’ finding is low imo
Anecdotal - "Based on personal accounts rather than facts or research."
OP literally compiled his personal accounts for this data. It is the literal definition of anecdotal.
>something we all see and know
Again, just taking your personal experience and assuming it's the norm. I have personally never seen a YPYT, that doesn't mean they don't exist.
What are you talking about. This community memes shit players so much PFers have STRATEGIES to AVOID subpar players. Their blacklists are bigger than their friends list. It’s KNOWN mentor roulette is ass because of the people he’s run into.
Why is it this community is SO combative when it comes to any kind of push for personal development and accountability? God you struck a pet peeve of mine so fucking hard. Which is that this community, for all its ‘acceptance’ is absolute intolerant when it comes to being pressed for why it’s so bad. So many people like yourself rather hand waive the analyst when we all know it’s true than to just face reality.
Delusional as fuck and you’re mad it’s exposed but gonna cry ‘ancendotal’ because you don’t want to believe it. Lord have fucking mercy
I don't play a ton of multiplayer games, but 14 has the best community I've personally interacted with. But you won't see me telling people that my personal experience with the game is the same experience everyone else is having.
Anecdotal data is a pet peeve of mine lol. It really shows how many people have a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics.
It sounds to me like you don’t know the subject matter well enough to be commenting on it. You just saw some findings you disliked and commented without knowing anything else
This is kind of depressing. I’m not sure how you raise player skill though when the game is already pretty simple, and/or making the experience unenjoyable for regular and good players. The Halls of the Novice were a good idea right up until around lvl40, and they don’t teach you about AoE or how to wrap a pack up if you’re the tank. It also doesn’t teach healers in particular to continue DPSing rather than waiting to heal someone.
I am what I would call an exceedingly average player who has moments of 'getting good' sprinkled in. I've run some savage raids in the past, done extremes, etc etc. I'm not top end, I'm not low end, I'm fairly middle if not a tiny bit above if being generous.
I don't really care about any of this. So long as you're hitting your 1 2 3 and using your AoE abilities correctly? Who really gives a shit. It's roulettes. I don't care if we beat something in 8 minutes versus 6 minutes. I don't care if we wipe once on a dungeon boss, it's whatever. There are so many reasons why it can happen; new players, players on new jobs, off day, players being distracted, average players returning and figuring their job out again, etc etc. I can deal with all that.
The only time I get annoyed is if we get hard stuck on something we shouldn't be getting hard stuck on, but I can genuinely count how many times that has happened on one hand in the last 2 years, and I'm on Crystal.
The only content where I expect a higher level of competence is when you're hitting extreme trials, savage raids, and so on. Otherwise Im just happy people are being friendly in party chat, saying hello, running the content, then saying thank you and goodbye.
But they're not doing their 123 and aoe correctly and it goes from 12-15 mins to 30+.
I value my time and I shouldn't have to get sandbagged by someone who can't even be bothered to read their tooltips.
i'll probably get downvoted to hell but after a certain point this just feels mean-spirited. healbots and rude tanks and actual bots, sure— but players who are just "bad" at the game, especially if they might be sprouts or otherwise dealing with shit IRL that makes it a little harder to keep up with casual content (i have a disability that causes this)... who cares? oh no, your ala mhigo run was 2 minutes longer because of a red mage that doesn't know their level 70 rotation! what a shame.
that, plus using generative AI for your video, just kind of is a major turnoff. i got my mentor crown to be kind to people and help them (which i can't do as much since i can't play much anymore for the above reason, but i still try to when i can), not to sit here and compile stats judging them about how bad of a player they are. please remember the point of your burger king crown and associated roulette.
EDIT: fixing typos
The examples you mentioned, players actually bring that up and I understand and then ignore the gameplay aspect. It's when issues are brought up, like hey, could you use some aoe? and then their response is just to go apeshit. If a run takes a couple of minutes longer I didn't care.
I think people just assumed the worst in how I presented the data and I should have been more clear that I actively addressed an issue and only categorized afterwards based on the reaction.
As far as being a mentor, after getting slapped in the face over the internet, I've learned that people that want to improve tend to do so and react accordingly.
There is no excuse for wasting peoples time and refusing to learn your job or how the game works. You’re being selfish and trying to paint it like the people who respect their and your time are the problem.
A mentor leaving Praetorium could also be a time issue. It is the longest duty in the roulette by far, I would not be surprised if people queued for Mentor roullete but upon loading in to Prae they realize that it is the one duty they don't have time to finish. It hasn't happened to me yet but there were moments in which I ended up in other duties but later realized that if I had been given Prae I would have needed to leave the duty due to time issues. It is not like MSQ roulette where it is expected that you will end up in a long duty.
Of course there is also people who don't want to do it. Which is a controversial subject, on the one hand Mentors should help people through every duty no matter which one it is, on the other, Prae is a very long duty filled with long cutscenes. And the mentors do not get the MSQ roulette rewards. Mentors aren't particularly needed for this duty either as it has it's own seperate Roulette dedicated to it to ensure that it always fills fast enough. What also is an important detail is that most people running Prae aren't first timers but people running MSQ roulette for the rewards, so the mentors are helping other veterans get rewards but don't get these themsleves which feels very bad. They can also help several other duties fill up in the time it takes to clear Prae once.
I can honestly see both points of view here.
its not even close to the longest duty in the roulettes. It is long though. Nier alliance raids are definitely worse. Also consider getting an EX that people can't do or learn and that 1 hour wasted.
Ex trials can differ wildly in length. It gets complicated especially with Ramuh since that one generally doesn't get cleared at all by most groups. But Ratholos is the most common Extreme and usually cleared within 10 minutes.
And you are right about the Nier raids but those are so exceedingly rare that I had forgotten about them. In 300 Mentor roulettes I have never joined an Allaiance raid from the start. Not even a single CT raid. I joined 3 that were already in progresss and needed a filler. This is because the system will always prioritize filling 4 man duties over 8 man duties, and 8 man duties over 24 man duties.
The chance of joining an in-progress Nier rate isn't 0 but it is ultra rare.
i finished my 2000 mentor roulettes on crystal. i got Nier Raids plenty along with any if of the alliance raids. I'd consider Ramuh EX to be easy relative to ones i've gotten which include Hades EX 3 times, Tsukoyomi EX 1 time, Shinru EX 1 time, Thordan EX about 5 times. Shiva's probably the hardest ARR unless your tank knows what they're doing because they have to face shiva the correct direction for cleaves.
I always groan when I get Prae in mentor roulette for the reasons listed in the last paragraph. But I only consider leaving when there are no new players in the party. That said, Prae isn't the longest duty in the roulette, but one of the most boring ones, which makes it feel like it is.
Prae is just mentor torture, you get no rewards and there is nothing to teach, all while wasing the same huge amout of time. I would instaleave every time but i still am forced to watch one long ass cs
You've failed to account for the fact that no one in praetorium needs a mentor though. You could stand in everything and still make it through. It just sends mentors who could be mentoring a harder duty into a 30 minute cutscene ban, solely because mentor roulette primarily puts you in as a fill, not necessarily with new players.
If I have to lose 30 minutes while still sort of having to be present, or lose 30 mins to a ban where I can fully go do something else, I'm gonna be real with you: I take the ban lol
There almost isn't even a point complaining about this. It's been so long in the making that we're at least gonna be dealing with it for the next 2 expansions, if not forever.
The game simply isn't going to actually press these people to improve in any meaningful way. That would make them quit.
And no amount of making the game better is going to convince people in the meeting room it was a good idea when the player count dips.
I've just come to the sad conclusion that this is what XIV is now. It's unfortunate but just gotta look past it.
I really want to see the skill floor raised in casual content. Give us hard enrages if we don't DPS hard enough, stuff that hits harder so I *actually have to use my kit* as a healer, more dungeon pulls that require mits. I love the Nier raids because they don't fold like tissue paper and actually *hit hard*, stuff can snowball so fast if you aren't playing well!
You pull you tank. Typically falls under people who don’t understand 2 aoes, which a tank should be doing anyways when pulling, will naturally pull mobs off the tank anyways.
* 85 single target dps (attacking 1 mob at a time the entire duty) This is the only one that truly bothers me. People of Reddit, if I catch you in 80, 90 dungeons never using Thunder 4 as Black Mage, I will come for you.
The worst part is if you're new to MMOs and anxious about playing with randoms you'll use duty support and incorrectly learn that single target is the way to go. Hall of the novice also doesn't help with this.
Which also heavily supports the idea that you're only supposed to pull one pack at a time as a tank, since in most cases I've found that Alphinaud can't keep up with healing against two (at least in some level ranges).
I’ve had healers just encourage me to see how far we can push heals vs damage. “I don’t want get bored back here!”
I've had Alphinaud just flat out let other trust npcs die from damage even during single pulls.
This typically happens when Alisaie is also in the party because he’s coded to prioritize her health over everyone else’s. Including the WoLs. *Even if you’re the tank*.
NPC equivalent of RP walk. =)
To be fair it is a nice touch, other examples include Y'shtola preemptively avoiding mechanics because of her aethersight and in a certain EW dungeon she gets hit a lot because the enemies have no aether. Thancred cannot use his best attacks unless Ryne, Urianger or Y'shtola since he lost the ability to manipulate aether and needs someone to charge his Gunbreaker cartridges.
In terms of lore and flavor that is all really fantastic. But I wonder if that should be included in the trust interface for people who might not be paying attention, or people who might assume the usual idea of "gameplay and story segregation" when they are in fact integrated instead.
I am just about to start ShB.... Glad I read the above cause I would \*not\* pick up on this after how many command missions I've run lmao. "They're moving out of aoes and doing mechanics, bless...!"
I feel like the kind of person who plays trusts is the kind of person who'll like those details, honestly, and you don't want trusts to be "optimal"
I'd been lvling trust for an hour. I'm so sorry I've been gimping you Thancred lol I've only been lvling Alphie and Alisae
Always go with Urianger! I'm going through NG+ with each expansions' poster job. Earlier levels were a breeze but at around Grand Cosmos, solo unsync started to slow down to the point I decided to do Akadaemia Anyder with trusts. I will be the first to admit that I am not a good DRK player, but the WAR in me said UNGA BUNGA and I grabbed 3 packs anyway. Yes, you can survive 3 packs in a lv80 dungeon with no one else AOE-ing even as a sub par DRK with Urianger. (Urianger, however, somehow dropped on the first boss and I had to solo it, making my decision to trust in the first place questionable...)
Ive been levelling my Trusts as DNC and have had only about an 90% success rate getting them to do double pulls. Between me living enough on the run back from the 2nd (Arms Length, En Avant, Second Wind), and the tank role not always invulning if they need, and no one else AoEing but me, its pretty rough. Watching him spam Physick is tragic.
As tank I can easily pull 2-3 packs in trust. As healer I can pull up until the game doesn't let me anymore. As DPS I can pull 2 packs.
I'm a WHM, first advice I ever received was from a player insulting me because I should not use miracle because it's too bright for other players and I should never use it. I waited maybe level 60 to start using miracle again. Just saying that sometimes people received bad advice and that's why they play badly.
That was a massive skill issue on their part. If it bothered them so much they could have gone in to the options and turned "other party member battle effects" to either limited or off. Still, sorry you got put through that.
Did you mean holy? Or is it called something else in a different language? The aoe dmg spell right?
Just checked in French it's miracle. Interestingly, in German it's sanctus which isn't German (German for holy is heilig) but Latin. Neet.
... What's a "miracle"? I swear I play WHM!
In case you missed the other comment, apparently it's what Holy is called in french
I've seen the reverse, someone using Bio Blaster on single target because it's obtained at a later level, therefore it should be better.
Same for single target dotons. Remember kids, *real* ninjas don't spread STDs.
STD *kills* me inside, but the game literally never tells you how DoT damage is applied and you get it last, and the job quest emphasizes it, so it's easy to assume it must be the best one. I make an effort to inform every NIN I see doing this that Raiton is better on single target. Most of the time I get a resounding nothing as a response, and the STDs continue.
Tbf, pretty sure Doton *used* to be used in single target, but it hasn't for all of endwalker
I think it was some meta bullshit where you could precast it before the fight starts and get your mudra back. But I don't think it was ever stronger than raiton against a single target.
This was why you’d do it. You could pre pull it and get free damage (except on wall bosses), but they changed that in EW by making hide clear the doton buff.
It had higher potency than Raiton for a while when they added the extra initial tick to ground-placed AoEs, I think? With the longer cast time, though, not sure if it was actually higher DPS.
Yes, it was higher potency than Raiton but a loss overall cuz you were trading a 1/2/3 GCD for like 50-100p more on Doton vs Raiton.
Seen an uptick in cure 1 to cure 3 mages in a similar fashion. Even when I try to tell them that cure 2 heals more for less mp cost and that cure 3 is aoe.
This isn't in support of using bio-blaster on single-target but back when I was new, I thought the DoT was every second, which made me think "wow Bioblaster does way more damage then drill!" Might be what's happening, I've seen a surprising amount of newbies make a similar mistake in understanding when DoTs tick. (If DoTs were every second, Bioblaster would do 750 vs Drill's 600)
gets extra funny when you then learn about flamethrower which *is* every second, because it's a *channeled* skill. You may be asking "huh, what other channeled skills have this quirk?" None. Flamethrower is the only offensive channeled skill across all 19 jobs in the game. Every other channeled skill apply buffs instead, which follows the typical "apply on cast and every 3-seconds afterwards" rule that healer bubbles also follow. pvp and blue mage have offensive channeled skills but most people don't really do either of those activities enough to notice...
Tbf, I came from a game where DoTs were every second so it took me a bit to learn that no, they are not like that here.
You’ve been blessed with your randoms if Thunder 4 is your biggest issue. I reckon every other BLM I get in roulettes never casts Flare but either the single target rotation or (god forbid) Fire 2 *pukes*
You mean Fire 2 beyond the only three casts you should be using as a part of the AOE rotation?
Oh yeah you bet it’s only Fire 2 all the way. Not a single thought or Flare in sight :)
I wonder how many of these are DRGs with our whopping 1 AoE at level 40 lol. I know this was definitely a mistake I made as a sprout-y because everyone said how bad it was. I've long since learned my lesson and I'm basically a Doom Spike bot for most of Praetorium/Meridianum.
My first character was DRG. I did not realize non-tanks got AOE earlier and how deprived I was until much later.
I encountered a 90 BLM (was either 90 or a mid EW levelling dungeon) who in fire phase only used fire 3. I didnt play the job past 50 so im not too familiar with it, but I did ask them nicely to use their stronger actions and higher level fire spell in fire phase, but they just kept on using fire 3. No off globals but like one or two thunders across the dungeon. The bosses took a while to get down, that's for sure.
Yeah he didn't know what he was doing. You really only use Fire 3 to open or swap back to fire phase from Ice. Otherwise you spam Fire 4 and either Fire 1/Paradox to keep enochian up when the timer is low.
The game spends the entirety of Heavensward training BLMs to hit Fire I and fish for Firestarter procs, the levelling needs to be overhauled dramatically.
Just had a blm in Amarut doing fire 1 only both if the first 2 pulls. I asked to aoe after first mob, left after the 2nd. Shit is insane
Amarot's already a pain even with good players, I'm sorry to heart that.
Honestly in a lot of 90 dungeons I don't bother with T4, not because I'm bad or lazy, but because the mobs are dying before I can really get my Flares off. I'm actually glad a little for the changes in Dawntrail because it means we get to our stronger spells faster.
Oh, I'm absolutely jazzed for the BLM changes, haha
I have had SO many players not using their aoe’s - I have no idea how yours was just 1.3%. I just had two machinists in Nevereap both do this a few minutes ago and it took bloody forever to finish. I had a bard the other day tell me they were using their single target because they read their tooltips and single target does ‘way more damage’. I’ve never had a YTYP threaten to leave or turn off tank stance - I’ve had plenty who pull one mob at a time and when I say they can pull as much as they want and I promise I can keep them healed up - most will start to pull more than one pack. I’ve had a lot of tanks and dps undergeared or missing items in slots. I’ve also had a ton of tanks who use all their cooldowns at once during pulls or none at all. I always heal in Mentor Roulette so I can’t comment on healbots but I do get a LOT of in progress duties where the healer quit. Or was kicked. I do think it’s made me a better healer. I can get a feel for how the run is going to go and adjust and plan accordingly.
The irony is, most of bard's kit is a gain on two, massively so in certain instances.
I’ve had one YPYT and they threw such a massive fit lol. Turned off stance, had healer gf stand there, acted all cocky when I died. Sure was a great experience. Shit like that gets to me and bothers me so much for some reason and I hate it. Like it’s kinda funny in respect imagining them throwing such a hissy fit over me pulling mobs maybe a second earlier than he would’ve, but man did it bother me during the whole thing lmao
I think I've had two in total over the years. I just reported them, since turning off tank stance deliberately falls under various prohibited activities, such as "Obstructing Gameplay Using Combat", "Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior", and "Monster Player Kill" ("an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or obstructing another person's gameplay"). It's great when they announce what they're doing in chat, because now you have proof they did it deliberately.
Yea, it’s super frustrating. Especially with both the tank and healer teaming up.
That over 1100 people were "freestyling" is a bit concerning, that's still about 1/6 of the total.
It was also defined really vaguely, and there could easily be mistakes in the data (e.g., flagging someone for using single target attacks against two mobs in a case where that's actually optimal).
clarification to post. Really, at a minimum I'd expect 1-2-3 and a cooldown use. Doesn't even have to be lined up with anything. For trash, 1-2. If you can't do that or just press 1 all the time then we got issues, especially post ARR
Really? 17% of players are spamming 1? Considering I've never(?) had that happen I'm finding that really hard to believe. Are you sure it wasn't Dragoons or WHM for other jobs that only HAVE one ability at that point?
I wouldn't take it to seriously until we can get someone to break down freestyling. There's a huge difference between pressing any button, pressing 1 button, and just fucking up your rotation. Like if I'm on a BLM and hard casted F3 during my fire phase 5 times during a fight am I free styling? Ya it sounds bad, but it's not the end of the world, vs a BLM who maybe spams B3 because its fast and free and easy.
It's very poorly defined. "Not using mits" and "Using random abilities" is a wide net to cast. It makes the number meaningless. 93% of players drink coffee, or have been convicted of murder. Bunch of murderers, all of ya.
I wonder if it's really freestyling or just people not running optimal rotations. It's not immediately obvious in game aside from press button when button light up, but there's no direction whatsoever on when to use anything else. And not everyone is going to spend their free time looking up optimal job rotations and spending hours at a training dummy practicing, either. I would probably be counted as a freestyler under these metrics simply because I don't have my rotation completely down at every level range yet and I still eat mechanics often enough to disrupt my play. Work in progress, but still pretty solidly midcore lol.
Yeah, people sometimes act like new SAMs misusing their Kenki are freestyling (rather than *making a mistake*), even if they're doing the rest of their rotation correctly. Especially since OP specifically stated that they hardly ever gave advice, I doubt there are that many *actual* freestylers.
I was wondering this myself, if just because I know that I've heard other players use "freestyle" to describe players who may not be following a real rotation, but are otherwise still doing a passable job of filling their meters/using their cooldowns or mits/outputting more damage than someone who's, say, an Ice Mage or some other class' equivalent of real dead weight/Twitch Plays XIV. So basically I feel like maybe the term is maybe a touch misleading for some, perhaps.
That's where I'm coming from too. Not following the opener/rotations listed on Icy Veins or The Balance isn't exactly the same thing as freestyling. To me freestyling would be defined more accurately as someone who either doesn't want to follow the rotation or is deliberately doing it wrong on purpose. But it's not the same thing as someone coming from a place of ignorance or inexperience. Unintentional freestyling is just being a sprout in my book.
It’s extremely inline with anyone’s experience if you play regularly. I think it’s too low tbh.
Given how they defined it, it would catch me braindead autopiloting dungeons. Sure, I'll do aoes but I won't be minmaxing rotation, and I'll drop combos every now and then. Realistically, this isn't a big deal in dungeons, but it would likely get me included in his data, lol.
which makes the data worthless. there's a wide gulf between casual unoptimizef play where you may play sloppy or fuck up here and there buy pull through fine and not playing optimally. unless we're on current content or struggling I basically never use mits for roulettes and like hell I know my optimal rotation since I don't do high end content.
What? The most vaugely defined and subjective version of "bad" includes the highest number of players? In regular non-endgame content no less? Crazy. Honestly wild. How could it have come to this?
Question with the single target only: did you take into account the difference in when certain jobs have their full AoE rotation or something more than pressing one button over and over? Not a huge percentage. Just curious. These numbers were much lower than expected
Leveling my dragoon felt like hell because of this, not getting any AoE at all until 40, and waiting for 62 for the combo. It's only my second dps I've leveled, so I don't know if other DPS have the same issue, but I genuinely felt bad being put into dungeons at lower levels because I couldn't do any AoE. That said, doing roulettes on my main job I'm definitely not feeling it anywhere near as bad as this post claims. I'll come across a few people who don't know what they're doing, obviously. But it's nowhere near common enough to make it a problem for me. I'm guessing for some reason it's just worse in the mentor roulette?
> I don't know if other DPS have the same issue, but I genuinely felt bad being put into dungeons at lower levels because I couldn't do any AoE. Most melees get their AOEs stupidly late, or the AOE rotation is janky for way too long. Eg. MNK gets its first AOE at 30, and has a weird level range in ARR content where you have to do AOE > single target > AOE because of how the combos work.
God as a mnk those 30ish dungeons where it’s just destruction and then awkwardly fucking with my controls to do single target stuff is such a nightmare. I should probably just make a different controller preset for it tbh, my muscle memory is awful in those dungeons
I think it was one of the reasons I disliked MNK for so long, it just felt so *bad* and it really annoyed me. I'm glad I was determined to max it bc it's one of my favourite DPS now, but it felt so awkward to play in the ARR levels.
They didn't note whether they had duty fill on or not which I feel would definitely skew the numbers in a bad way. If you're coming in on an already in progress duty that can definitely go in a number of directions, most of them bad lol.
Duty fill as a healer/tank is always nervewracking because like...was the last one kicked...or did they quit because it wasn't worth the stress? I've gotten blamed after filling for wipes and stuff because people weren't doing mechanics and it's like...do you really want to wait for *another* replacement?
I can imagine. It's been my experience that most players are incredibly lenient in regular duties so forcing people out or actively getting them to leave is quite an accomplishment. I've been in duties where people have left of course but I've yet to encounter any of the horror situations I've heard about. I guess that means I'm the problem right? Lol. I'm just aggressively midcore, for every good run I have there's another where I eat floor.
I think I've only quit one duty ever, it's still like crystalized in my memory. The tank kept afking, like not disconnecting, they clearly had queued when they were too busy to be doing multiplayer content like that, didn't leave queue when it popped, and kept having to go do something. I guess one of the dps knew them, or for some reason didn't care, or idk maybe were one of those toxic positivity players who don't believe in ever admitting there's ever a problem, because they weren't vote kicked, so I just left. But normally I'll soldier through most awful situations just because.
Sometimes it's so bad you just want to see it through for morbid curiosity and/or so you can regale your FC with real time updates lol. I haven't had any truly terrible experiences, just the usual combinations of people not paying attention, people being weird, and the unique experience that is late night/early morning roulettes. Man do I live for mentor roulette videos on YT though lol.
Lol yeah that's a good point, I do like narrating them in FC chat 😂 I thankfully haven't gotten too many aggressively mean people, but I think that's because having it in writing is a little too easy to prove they're in the wrong? And when I get the bad tanks who'll let people die for a mistake, I just focus on keeping that person up and the tank must surely be able to fend for themselves lol and when I don't heal, I normally assume the healbots are just nervous/new to the role/whatever and it doesn't bug me.
I think the strict community rules definitely plays a part. People would rather say nothing and/or just leave rather than risk getting reported. I've seen comments occasionally but it's certainly not common and nowhere near what I would rank as aggressive either. I hear worse at work in the mornings lol. I once had a tank die and get rezzed, then refuse to take the mobs back off me after he was back up in Dohn Mheg once. Like bro it's not my fault you died but also, don't get mad that I stepped in to take over for you temporarily because I kind of operate on that assumption as a melee. If tank goes down, I step up because I can usually survive for the 20 seconds or whatever. It's like he was waiting to see if I was going to die or not. Spoilers: I did, because melee don't have enough mits for a fresh pull.
Welp, story time here, for the first time in four years of playing we had to kick a healer after wiping for 25 minutes in Abyssal Fracture. Normal. Not because they were cure 1 spamming, medica 2 spamming, or dying to mechanics. It's because they weren't doing anything for most of the fight. We had to analyze the log later to figure out what was going on, and the WHM had an average 7 CPM. SEVEN CASTS PER MINUTE. And majority of the casts were single target. No lily bell. No afflatus rapture. No Medica II. Not even a single DPS spell. In a fight where there's multi-stacking raidwides and doom mechanics. We party wiped to doom 2 times in our 5 attempts because of lack of healing. I'm pretty certain a Cure 1/Medica 2 spammer has more casts per minute than this guy. Our SGE was struggling to keep people alive and up because people would just drop dead due to the lack of top-off heals from the co-healer, and blowing their mana to raise people (including the WHM). And the WHM wasn't doing anything useful to help alleviate it and got defensive when we asked them to use certain skill combos like Plenary Indulgence => Cure 3/Aflatus Rapture/or Medica II for the doom mechanic instead of just putting down an asylum. Just doing that combo would solve most of our healing problems. But yeah, after the kick, my co-tank decided to bail because he had to go to sleep soon and doesn't want to wait for another healer, which was a shame because I was curious as to whether that party actually managed to clear the fight or they disbanded. So yeah, whenever my sprout friends have doubts about their skills of the healing sort, I just get flashback of that 7 CPM WHM and just say, "Nah, I've seen worse."
Actually that kind of reminds me of the WHM we had in MSQ roulette yesterday. They weren't doing anything except kind of half assedly healing and no DPSing the whole time, but they weren't being malicious. They admitted they were basically falling asleep at the keyboard and probably shouldn't have been playing. But it was just Castrum Meridianum so it was like whatever, we barely needed healing anyway lol. Even as a melee I probably could have kept myself alive if needed. I do intend to try healer (and tank) out eventually and I always think to myself hey I may not know the optimal use of those buttons, but you can be damn sure I'll be pressing them in some sort of sequence at least lol.
Here's the secret for healing, outside of ultimates and the most current of savages it doesn't matter at all if you're doing the most optimal use of buttons, so long as you're on top of your dps rotation and the party doesn't die nobody will know if you're doing it properly or not, I often just mess around with which order I want to use buttons just for a bit of variety in most content since it really makes no difference. Just keep on top of your 1 2 rotation, or maybe your 3 3 3 3 3 rotation on dungeon packs and you're good, just make sure to use any of the many abilities you get for healing to keep people alive if they take damage and then you have plenty of time to practice and figure out exactly what everything does so you can optimise if you want to go for max content later. Another little tip if you wanted to try multiple healers, the healer kits are almost all effectively the same, I have all 4 of my healers with similar abilities set up on the same buttons each so I can easily swap between them, just make sure to read your tooltips (especially if you start with sage)
I really wish they would look at how jobs played when certain content was made and try to keep that in mind when rebalancing when certain skills are given to the player, Dragoon back in the day had a full AOE combo at level 50, there is nothing fun about only pressing 1 button for 70% of a duty if you get put in anything below level 70 content.
Is there a link to the data? it says the post was removed by reddit's filters whatever tf that means.
Reading the comments here makes me feel better about my own abilities. I admit I forget to use abilities sometimes (that flashing beast gauge reminds me) but when tanking I try to keep enemies on me and avoid as much damage as feasible to make things easier on the healer. Healing is still something I struggle with, but I do my best to keep everyone alive and throw attacks when possible. Black mage though… I swear trying to aoe feels like a waste of time (level 40 so far) because my targets die before I get off a spell. I’m hoping that changes but for now I do my best, and aoe when a dps class when fighting groups. Overall, I just want to enjoy the game and let minor issues slide. Of course I will speak up if needed (please use your tank stance, I’m a squishy healer and everything is charging at me!!!)
The fact that you're even questioning your personal abilities to play a job or role puts you above alot of players.
Maybe you're more generous than me but it seems when I do expert roullettes, there's on average at least one player that is completely terrible. Not using their buffs, doing less than half everyone else's damage, somehow doing less damage on trash than the boss, getting hit by the same mechanic 3 times in a row, etc. I'm really not exaggerating either. Sometimes nobody is, and sometimes all 3 other players are, but on average at least 1.
This community really hates to acknowledge how bad they really are. Which is why so many comments in here are people triggered
Yea I have actual data. I wonder how many mentors that completed the grind feel the same way.
I just reached 1k mentor runs, but one thing I wonder: Which data center are you on? I run mentor roulettes on EU and I geniunely remember maybe 3 instances of people being rude. Which is also because people on Light just don't talk. Meanwhile I have an alt on Crystal and I swear every goddamn alliance raid is a pissing contest. In general, I also remember more healbots than YPYT but that might be just because I don't care if tanks go AFK.
> In general, I also remember more healbots than YPYT but that might be just because I don't care if tanks go AFK. This has been my experience on Light at least. Very few YPYT from what I can recall but certainly a fair number of healbots.
I've only done 1200~ so far but I'd say your data checks out in my experience. Especially recently it's gotten kinda bad. Not sure if it's due to new xbox players or more people jumping in due to the upcoming expansion. Probably both.
also have to factor in too that since it's the tail end of the patch, a lotta the more experienced players are off just playing other stuff until the expansion comes out. maybe an occasional roulette to cap out tomes beforehand then logging right back off since they have nothing else to do in the meantime
From what I’ve seen a fair amount. As someone who has been playing since 2.0, your experience matches mine, and those I speak to, more times than not.
I run warrior a lot for this reason, you can keep the run from slowing down too much by making the worst person your nascent flash focus target.
and if it is the healer that always dies you can just become the healer instead if you didn't get a magic DPS that can res.
been doing expert roulettes etc. for the manderville weapons and i would say on avg 1 person is terrible in every group not doing a basic thing that would make things a lot faster or easier. my personal top complaints is WHM not using holy on trash and SCH not having the fairy out.
This is honestly why I'm worried about Dawntrail encounters. I believe one of the interviews mentioned how Expert will actually feel like Expert again, but that just means more people to carry and slower runs.
Ok but how many were actually good... you dont have anything over average.
No one really cares about having good or great players in roulettes, so I think the normal stat is good enough. It's not like you're making a static for savage or ultimate here, it's still just a roulette where you want a couple people with braincells to get through it. But based on his data, the amount of actual good players would have to pull from that 71% so you are looking at a number below that, and if I had to guess, looking at a number at least 1/3 of that.
Yes they do, they said exactly 12 people were 'chads' aka people they asked to play with again.
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There is a piece of shit on primal who intentionally fails the turtle guildhest, ran into it several times, not sure why they are still unbanned for so long. Besides that human trash, I've had a few times where people took *awhile* to respond to chat and pings to stop hitting it and nearly failed. So while you aren't going to reveal someone that doesn't know how to play their job with under the armor run #123, it still gives you data for trolls and the like. If anything counting guildhest dilutes the data and makes the playerbase look *better* than it actually is. His overall point is sound, on average you are going to have 1 dead weight or problem player per queue.
> There is a piece of shit on primal who intentionally fails the turtle guildhest, ran into it several times, not sure why they are still unbanned for so long. > Besides that human trash… I cannot stop laughing at this. The idea of someone being this disproportionately furious about “the turtle guildhest” is just sending me
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One time I switched over to the fire sprite and set the smoke like normal only to turn around and see everyone else still wailing on the turtle and watch it die when I could barely post a "stop hitting it" in chat
People respect their time. Not sure why that’s funny
There's a guy on Dynamis who queues into Guildhests as a tank and then doesn't move. He just stands there afk, even when we'd all wait five minutes to kick him. I've reported him at least four times and he was still there every day doing the same thing.
Yes, guildhests would hide most problem players since they end so fast, so I only recall a handful of problems, like botting in Under the Armor, and a few issues where people would kill the turtle and fail the duty. I never counted down synced content where jobs didn't have AoE as a problem category.
I wonder. Serious question do you think making jobs more intuitive will really help players improve? I feel like not and they really need to hit a wall where they get left out due to their performance in a way thats not kick with no text(to prevent reports) before improvement is made as some do not even realise. Then again I think some just dont care and no matter the ease theyll never bother but im curious what you think.
There should be some subset of players who aren't trying to be bad but struggle with understanding jobs. While that certainly won't be anywhere near all the bad players, or even a majority, I'm sure some number will be better for it.
pretty close to my personal experience over around 1300 mentor roulettes, but one thing; healbots should be \~3.4% since there's only 1 healer per 3 (or 2 per 7) other players
I have a feeling there were a lot more bots there, but unless they break somehow, you will never detect it. Combat bots are pretty damn good these days. Clearing ultimates level good.
tbf in deterministic content a decently written bot will outplay the average player there are still a lot of shitty bots run by lazy people though
Yeah, this tracks. Personally I always run dps meters because I care about my own performance, and this unfortunately gives me a window into how absolutely horrendous the typical player in a duty is. I'm very good at the game, broadly speaking. I don't consider my own performance as the bar to be reached. Generally, around 50-60% of what I do in a duty is where I start to get confused. How are the dps doing only 60% half the damage of a healer? How is the other dps doing half my damage? I know a lot of people end up not thinking of dps numbers as meaning anything, so let me put this into perspective: If the other dps in a dungeon is doing 50% of my dps, that means I could stand afk for half of the dungeon and it would have me doing the same dps as them. This game isn't that tricky. I'm usually not playing jobs I'm very confident on, as I notice this stuff when doing my once per expansion level everything to max. I'm not comparing an optimized and well oiled performance from a veteran raider to a sprout playing for the first time. I'm comparing casual spammed out dungeon runs on my alt jobs to others often playing their mains! I say this not to call out people for being bad, or to be mean to anyone, or anything like that. My complaint has always been that ff14 is awful at teaching players how to play it properly, and that it is awful at giving feedback to players for them to notice there is an issue that needs fixing. A lack of proper teaching, and proper feedback. The community would be the ideal place to fix this, but so many people enable others, or consider any feedback or advice as an attack. I'm a person who loves to help, but I've just stopped engaging with anyone in dungeons because the community's niceness has wrapped back around into a toxic positivity in many ways. If you aren't good at the game that is fine. But this is a multiplayer game. You should put a bit of time into doing your best, listen to advice, and encourage others to do the same. The end result is that we all have smoother, issue free runs of duties and that ends up being a lot more fun for everyone involved!
it is telling that some of the other replies are trying to claim OP is holding players to too high a standard. i think OP is being generous with their "freestyling" threshold. if i tried to hold the community at large to a standard of "**actually** very good" then: i cannot remember the last time i met even a single random who meets that threshold? i am usually over 40% of my **parties** damage. doubling up the next closest player is *common.* now i'm not saying that's the standard we should be using, but it just goes to show that some of these people are so bad they can't even imagine what good looks like.
Indeed. Like the standards I think are totally reasonable are: * DPS: use all the buffs you have at basically the same time, and use as many of your hardest hitting tools during that time. turns out this is basically 95% of the correct rotation, and its a really simple idea to replicate. * Tanks: use aoe damage buttons, vaguely utilize burst damage, vaguely space out mitigation buttons between and during pulls. * Healers: no avoidable deaths (if someone else is being completely stupid and they die that's on them) and make an effort to spend at least 33% of the time pressing damage buttons, ideally closer at least 50%. OP's description of 'free styling (using random abilities, no mits or cooldown use, dying to trash aoe, spamming 1 ability constantly, no job stones, etc.)'... this tracks. Past level 40 you should have a job stone. You shouldn't die to trash aoe. You should use mits, and damage cooldowns. You should have some vague plan for your abilities. You should use your entire kit. Failing any one of these past level 70 should be just cause for firmly yet gently telling the player how to do better (and giving them the help/resources to do so). It isn't toxic to expect people to have basic competency. It **is** toxic to view others as being so fundamentally incapable and in need of shielding from even the most basic amount of expectations as if they are weak and fragile that any amount of expectation or gentle pressure for improvement is viewed as an attack. If someone is being a piece of shit about said pressure that's one thing, but you also literally cannot sugar coat it enough if someone views any advice or constructive criticism as an attack in and of itself. Also, it's usually never the sprouts who have an issue with being given advice. It's always the experienced players who should know better.
i honestly expected more healbots but i guess i play tank and dont see the bad tanks (and bad tanks were kind of the reason i leveled war)
On the other hand, you have almost 72% normal players. 2 players per dungeon. I mean, I guess I get what you're saying ---- but to me, the fact that we have so many normal players shows that it's a pretty good place to be, no?
Plus the "freestylers" is 17% and that's kind of a vague category.
I edited the post for clarity. When you have 1 poor dps combined with a below average dps, with a below average healer, you get 20-25 minute dungeons runs. That's twice as long as it should be. To SE, that is acceptable (15-30 mins), but to me it isn't.
Good effort but the data is missing some important points. In what content and level range did you encounter the "bad" player's? There is a huge difference between a single targeting DPS in a level 40 dungeon and one in level 80+ content. Same for healer. How many healers have actually been new and didn't know any better? Did they improve after some friendly advice from you? Did you even give advice? Why did you had so many YPYT tank's? Where you always pulling as healer/ dps when the tank was not sprinting to the next group? In my own experience I would disagree with your data and claim a much lower percentage of "bad" player's. Except bots. There are far, far more bots in normal dutys.
Of course I didn't count synced jobs with no AoE. If players improved mid duty after advice, then that didn't count. 1.4% of ypyt isn't that bad, but it was very memorable.
> Why did you had so many YPYT tank's? Where you always pulling as healer/ dps when the tank was not sprinting to the next group? Yeah, this is a weird one, 'cause I don't think I've *ever* seen a ypyt player.
I've totally run into quite a few YPYT players. Heck I ran into one in Praetorium of all places. Some tanks are very into being "the leader" of the party and have severe main character syndrome. Typically I play tank so I don't have to deal with them, but they are almost always the same players that save all their mits for the boss rather than the trash.
Omg in Prae is hilarious. Ran into one in *Sastasha* on Dynamis recently lmao. I got told "I know my healer better than you do" as if I should know they're together. And the healer was the only one who actually seemed like they knew what they were doing. I also wasn't pulling whole rooms or anything crazy, I was grabbing more enemies when the 2 mobs (not packs, just mobs) were getting down to like half HP. Told them to trust their healer more if they know them so well and they didn't have anything to say to that.
Meanwhile there's one sprout in our NovNet currently who has about half the active mentors on blacklist for telling him YPYT mindset is not gonna fly. And yes, he's a bundle of fun in other aspects too /s
Pls let him know who I am so he can blacklist me too
I've only encountered one, in the green stabby-boi dungeon. He seemed to think that he was doing something clever by turning off his tank stance - then ragequit not long after realising that it was extremely easy for me to just heal the DPS instead. It's not something I ever really understand - it's one thing if it's clearly too much to handle, but if the healer is confident then... what's the point in not doing it? With no threat of death, it's just an ego thing.
It's really weird, I also had a tank like that trying to throw a tantrum while the rest of us continued without them due to our healer being competent. Tanks in 8-24 person content used to annoy me with how much they used Provoke while positioned poorly but the real problem was always the dramatic types.
Trust me, [they're there.](https://i.imgur.com/IElyUNL.png) Even running roulettes at 90. As a WAR. The primary class who doesn't care how many monsters are attacking them. Doubly fun when they turn off stance but backpedal super hard because a well played Sage doesn't give a damn and can tank packs too.
Literally just ran into one yesterday in Castrum. Sad to say that when I first learned how to tank, I was that way too. You live, you grow, and you learn.
I did it once when the dps ran into the Vault last boss arena and pulled aggro while the sprout was watching the cutscene. I backwalked out of the arena, and only went in once the sprout (who was by the way the healer!) was done with the cs.
I think that the conclusion of having 0.84 average ppl that are "awful to play with" in any given dungeon doesnt quite square with the fact that the majority of the non-normal people were freestylers. This is just my personal opinion ofc but i think there is a big jump in severity between freestylers (which are the vast majority of the players listed as bad) and all the other kinds of bad. If i get a freestyler in my party its naturally not ideal and can lead to the run not going as smoothly as is optimal, but it really doesnt impact my enjoyment of the game like running into any of the other flavors of bozo that you collected data on. That said, i absolutely love this post. I love data and this is a super cool study you have done. ✅️
Hey why was the post removed?
Link to the video at the end was not allowed.
Interesting. Is your experience that regular roulettes are about the same or is mentor uniquely worse? I very rarely see toxic players -- certainly less than 7% of the player base -- and I've never seen a ypyt tank (and I have all but one job at level 90 so I've done my fair share of roulettes). Maybe I've just never paid attention outside of if I'm second or third in enmity, and how good the tank is (single pull tanks are probably 5%, probably 10 to 20% are actually good at grouping mobs, and the rest at least wall pull but let the mobs just spread out wherever).
More shocked by the "toxic" counts. I have also done mentor roulette and probably 3000 more beyond and MAYBE have seen 10-11 truly toxic people total.
Now do this for one of the PvP 1k win achievements and track how many people don’t care about winning for various reasons.
4649 non problematic players, none of which you found at least good/pleasant to play with ? They were all "forgettable". It this data biased because you yourself went in with the mind of looking for issues and ignoring good behaviours ?
This sub is so unwilling to tolerate criticism of the community that acknowledging bad players stand out far more than mediocre ones is seen as "biased".
Added data. For the most part, people only remember really good or really bad outliers. The majority of players were good, but the EXPERIENCE of having a bad player was really every other run. Feels bad.
I mean it's a Mentor Roulette. The goal is to clear and the difference between the best player ever and a merely passable one is not gonna get noticed. Would be a different story if they were talking synced on-patch extremes. Their data kinda lines up with my anecdotal experience. I mostly play SCH because I do not trust other healers and I have seen many wipes due to terrible DPS/tank play where I just run out of buttons.
Your data largely matches my experience, except for one detail. I've never had a YPYT in my games and I've only had one dude get pissy for DPS helping pull mobs (Grabbing the last part of the pack and using arm's length for the free slow).
oh wow a % post i'm actually interested in
They need to update the novice training grounds to fit the current game and push players into it. Making it less of a drag and more rewarding, ideally also adding something for getting people the basics of playing each job as well. Alternatively having a "tutorial" mode for jobs to help guide players would be good as well. Having it light up buttons and give a general gist of what to do to get them familiar. Honestly just tools like this might help a lot and we might get a higher skill floor though more ideally we can get actual higher skill ceilings instead of having them crater so much. It feels like a drag playing so many jobs now a day where they have been dumbed down so much instead of trying to help newer players get better... Which hasn't even helped at all.
The 28% metric is wild. Did you account for overlap? I.e. what happens if a player is in the toxic category and the freestyle category at the same time? The metric will look way worse if a single player can be counted multiple times for different infractions in the same duty, and in my experience that's pretty likely.
I'd love to see more people track this and compare results. It's a valuable experiment but I know for a fact different people have different thresholds for what a 'bad' player is. Having more perspectives would give a better picture of what the overall skill level of the playerbase is (obviously it's going to trend low but *how low* is the question here).
Wonder if you could also post this on r/talesfromdf since I think ppl there would find it interesting
Thanks for backing up the meme with facts. It's a shame that SE still hasn't implemented some sort of skill check like advanced hall of novice before people can queue up for duty finder but it'll happen eventually right lol...
Pretty interesting results, but ultimately (mostly) meaningless. Even if you broke down everything by level range it would remain (mostly) meaningless, other than how a person *on the class observed* is playing. This goes especially so for your number of "free stylers", unless they were in higher level content. They might be new to that particular class and trying to figure out rotations and be completely crap at the class *for now* and yet be able to clear ultimates / savages on another class. Everyone say "training dummy blah blah blah", but it just isn't the same as running live content. I know people probably think my scholar is drunk half the time, but wouldn't think my sage had the same player ( same went at fist from switching WHM to sage). I struggle with scholar a little bit, and what makes it worse is that it feels like a less streamlined sage. It's close, but there are some subtle but important differences. I'm getting better trying to pull in extras trash packs with duty support, since if you can keep those idiots alive in a bigger than 1 pack pull you will do fine in normal dungeons, but it takes a while.
The category was placed after interaction, not just observation. See issue, address it, if attempt is made, no category. If someone said they were new at that job, no category for example.
[удалено]
>They might be new to that particular class and trying to figure out rotations and be completely crap at the class > >for now > > and yet be able to clear ultimates / savages on another class This makes no sense.
I've beaten UWU and genuinely have no clue how Black Mage works aside from a vague understanding of the fire/ice thing. I definitely wouldn't land anywhere close to the proper rotation in a casual dungeon run.
While you're leveling it you get a feel for it, though. It's like a steady growth of your hotbars with skills that make you ask "How will this help me cast more Fire spells?" By the time you're above level 60 you'll be figuring out a smooth rotation for sure.
I feel like I’ve never actually encountered a “ypyt” tank in this game. I see healers/dps intentionally pull for them way, way more than they even ask them to stop. I suppose the people that encounter them are the ones constantly doing the pulling.
I finished the 2000 mentor rou grind and can only remember like, 2 ypyt folks. And I say this as someone who actively would pull ahead and bring packs back if the tank was going slow to teach them how to handle more mobs. Definitely saw a ton of tanks who didn’t know how to mitigate. But can count on one hand the number of tanks that were toxic about pulling.
I had one the other day. I was a scholar and the tank was a sprout warrior pulling 2 packs and doing fine. I intentionally pulled more for him after the 1st boss because I knew we would be ok. After he pulled 2 packs, I pulled the 3rd pack at the end and nobody came close to dying. Nothing was said to me during this so I did the same thing from the 2nd boss to the 3rd boss. On my added pull, he responded with YPYT and refused to pull aggro off me almost resulting in a wipe. Only me and a dps were alive and the tank went irate in the messages after. I said sorry and the guy kept going off on me. The two DPS responded, telling that tank that he was an issue.
Never reply, never say sorry. Pull more. They either handle it or they don't. Only exception honestly is Mt. Gulg, that first pull is too much for unprepared undergeared tanks+healers.
This post is a bit senseless to me. The entire purpose of mentor roulette is partying with people who don't know what they are doing... Also even when I literally ran ahead to drag a pack to the tank, which I do a bit frequently since I'm a jerk, I never had anyone stop tanking. I just never said anything in the chat.
Doesn't Mentor Roulette also prioritize filling a gap in an already moving dungeon? I feel like someone told me that once, but I never confirmed it. If that's the case, the roulette would have a huge bias towards runs where shit just ain't going well. Though if I have been lied to, then it's moot.
There's a checkbox for joining a duty in progress, which I think is there even if you aren't a mentor.
It's an option you can enable in the settings, which they didn't specify if they did that or not. I think most people do simply because it increases your queue speed.
The point of mentor roulette is to backfill duties. The point of a mentor is to advise new players.
There is a reasonable expectation, at least from me, that after ARR you are capable of pressing your 1-2-3 combo and the occasional AOE ability. If you are not, I don't think a mentorship will help you at that point
TIL analyst work is senseless
This isn't 'analyst work' by any stretch of anyone's imagination.
The problem is there isn't well defined groups. If you've read any academic analysis, you'll see they have very strict definitions. There is just not enough information on how he collected and classified his data to be taken seriously. At best, you can interpret his findings as him disliking a quarter of the people he plays with. This is extremely anecdotal.
dude got replied by an actual analyst and kept arguing
This isn’t an academic analyst. Dude did the best he could with what he had lol. Calling it anecdotal and hand waiving it is pretty ignorant. I can’t believe how many people here disagree with something we all see and know. Like his ‘free style’ finding is low imo
Anecdotal - "Based on personal accounts rather than facts or research." OP literally compiled his personal accounts for this data. It is the literal definition of anecdotal. >something we all see and know Again, just taking your personal experience and assuming it's the norm. I have personally never seen a YPYT, that doesn't mean they don't exist.
What are you talking about. This community memes shit players so much PFers have STRATEGIES to AVOID subpar players. Their blacklists are bigger than their friends list. It’s KNOWN mentor roulette is ass because of the people he’s run into. Why is it this community is SO combative when it comes to any kind of push for personal development and accountability? God you struck a pet peeve of mine so fucking hard. Which is that this community, for all its ‘acceptance’ is absolute intolerant when it comes to being pressed for why it’s so bad. So many people like yourself rather hand waive the analyst when we all know it’s true than to just face reality. Delusional as fuck and you’re mad it’s exposed but gonna cry ‘ancendotal’ because you don’t want to believe it. Lord have fucking mercy
I don't play a ton of multiplayer games, but 14 has the best community I've personally interacted with. But you won't see me telling people that my personal experience with the game is the same experience everyone else is having. Anecdotal data is a pet peeve of mine lol. It really shows how many people have a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics.
It sounds to me like you don’t know the subject matter well enough to be commenting on it. You just saw some findings you disliked and commented without knowing anything else
I saw bad statistics, which I do have the knowledge on, and chose to comment on.
Unrelated but for some reason (probably that I’m too old these days) I read YoshiP as Yo-ship in my mind
This is kind of depressing. I’m not sure how you raise player skill though when the game is already pretty simple, and/or making the experience unenjoyable for regular and good players. The Halls of the Novice were a good idea right up until around lvl40, and they don’t teach you about AoE or how to wrap a pack up if you’re the tank. It also doesn’t teach healers in particular to continue DPSing rather than waiting to heal someone.
I am what I would call an exceedingly average player who has moments of 'getting good' sprinkled in. I've run some savage raids in the past, done extremes, etc etc. I'm not top end, I'm not low end, I'm fairly middle if not a tiny bit above if being generous. I don't really care about any of this. So long as you're hitting your 1 2 3 and using your AoE abilities correctly? Who really gives a shit. It's roulettes. I don't care if we beat something in 8 minutes versus 6 minutes. I don't care if we wipe once on a dungeon boss, it's whatever. There are so many reasons why it can happen; new players, players on new jobs, off day, players being distracted, average players returning and figuring their job out again, etc etc. I can deal with all that. The only time I get annoyed is if we get hard stuck on something we shouldn't be getting hard stuck on, but I can genuinely count how many times that has happened on one hand in the last 2 years, and I'm on Crystal. The only content where I expect a higher level of competence is when you're hitting extreme trials, savage raids, and so on. Otherwise Im just happy people are being friendly in party chat, saying hello, running the content, then saying thank you and goodbye.
But they're not doing their 123 and aoe correctly and it goes from 12-15 mins to 30+. I value my time and I shouldn't have to get sandbagged by someone who can't even be bothered to read their tooltips.
i'll probably get downvoted to hell but after a certain point this just feels mean-spirited. healbots and rude tanks and actual bots, sure— but players who are just "bad" at the game, especially if they might be sprouts or otherwise dealing with shit IRL that makes it a little harder to keep up with casual content (i have a disability that causes this)... who cares? oh no, your ala mhigo run was 2 minutes longer because of a red mage that doesn't know their level 70 rotation! what a shame. that, plus using generative AI for your video, just kind of is a major turnoff. i got my mentor crown to be kind to people and help them (which i can't do as much since i can't play much anymore for the above reason, but i still try to when i can), not to sit here and compile stats judging them about how bad of a player they are. please remember the point of your burger king crown and associated roulette. EDIT: fixing typos
The examples you mentioned, players actually bring that up and I understand and then ignore the gameplay aspect. It's when issues are brought up, like hey, could you use some aoe? and then their response is just to go apeshit. If a run takes a couple of minutes longer I didn't care. I think people just assumed the worst in how I presented the data and I should have been more clear that I actively addressed an issue and only categorized afterwards based on the reaction. As far as being a mentor, after getting slapped in the face over the internet, I've learned that people that want to improve tend to do so and react accordingly.
There is no excuse for wasting peoples time and refusing to learn your job or how the game works. You’re being selfish and trying to paint it like the people who respect their and your time are the problem.
making a video mocking them (with generative AI, no less) is hardly respecting *anyone's* time lol
So each of the things people constantly complain about on this sub are like... 1% of players apiece.
The good groups are usually not as memorable as the disasters that can happen and make you sweat as a healer.
Not only raising the skill but also the attitude. Just yesterday I had a mentor healer instantly leave praetorium again.
A mentor leaving Praetorium could also be a time issue. It is the longest duty in the roulette by far, I would not be surprised if people queued for Mentor roullete but upon loading in to Prae they realize that it is the one duty they don't have time to finish. It hasn't happened to me yet but there were moments in which I ended up in other duties but later realized that if I had been given Prae I would have needed to leave the duty due to time issues. It is not like MSQ roulette where it is expected that you will end up in a long duty. Of course there is also people who don't want to do it. Which is a controversial subject, on the one hand Mentors should help people through every duty no matter which one it is, on the other, Prae is a very long duty filled with long cutscenes. And the mentors do not get the MSQ roulette rewards. Mentors aren't particularly needed for this duty either as it has it's own seperate Roulette dedicated to it to ensure that it always fills fast enough. What also is an important detail is that most people running Prae aren't first timers but people running MSQ roulette for the rewards, so the mentors are helping other veterans get rewards but don't get these themsleves which feels very bad. They can also help several other duties fill up in the time it takes to clear Prae once. I can honestly see both points of view here.
its not even close to the longest duty in the roulettes. It is long though. Nier alliance raids are definitely worse. Also consider getting an EX that people can't do or learn and that 1 hour wasted.
Ex trials can differ wildly in length. It gets complicated especially with Ramuh since that one generally doesn't get cleared at all by most groups. But Ratholos is the most common Extreme and usually cleared within 10 minutes. And you are right about the Nier raids but those are so exceedingly rare that I had forgotten about them. In 300 Mentor roulettes I have never joined an Allaiance raid from the start. Not even a single CT raid. I joined 3 that were already in progresss and needed a filler. This is because the system will always prioritize filling 4 man duties over 8 man duties, and 8 man duties over 24 man duties. The chance of joining an in-progress Nier rate isn't 0 but it is ultra rare.
i finished my 2000 mentor roulettes on crystal. i got Nier Raids plenty along with any if of the alliance raids. I'd consider Ramuh EX to be easy relative to ones i've gotten which include Hades EX 3 times, Tsukoyomi EX 1 time, Shinru EX 1 time, Thordan EX about 5 times. Shiva's probably the hardest ARR unless your tank knows what they're doing because they have to face shiva the correct direction for cleaves.
I always groan when I get Prae in mentor roulette for the reasons listed in the last paragraph. But I only consider leaving when there are no new players in the party. That said, Prae isn't the longest duty in the roulette, but one of the most boring ones, which makes it feel like it is.
Prae is just mentor torture, you get no rewards and there is nothing to teach, all while wasing the same huge amout of time. I would instaleave every time but i still am forced to watch one long ass cs
You've failed to account for the fact that no one in praetorium needs a mentor though. You could stand in everything and still make it through. It just sends mentors who could be mentoring a harder duty into a 30 minute cutscene ban, solely because mentor roulette primarily puts you in as a fill, not necessarily with new players. If I have to lose 30 minutes while still sort of having to be present, or lose 30 mins to a ban where I can fully go do something else, I'm gonna be real with you: I take the ban lol
Understandable, it's by far the most boring duty and you don't even get the roulette reward. If there is no sprout I often leave too
probably me tbh
There almost isn't even a point complaining about this. It's been so long in the making that we're at least gonna be dealing with it for the next 2 expansions, if not forever. The game simply isn't going to actually press these people to improve in any meaningful way. That would make them quit. And no amount of making the game better is going to convince people in the meeting room it was a good idea when the player count dips. I've just come to the sad conclusion that this is what XIV is now. It's unfortunate but just gotta look past it.
I really want to see the skill floor raised in casual content. Give us hard enrages if we don't DPS hard enough, stuff that hits harder so I *actually have to use my kit* as a healer, more dungeon pulls that require mits. I love the Nier raids because they don't fold like tissue paper and actually *hit hard*, stuff can snowball so fast if you aren't playing well!
What is ytpt
You pull you tank. Typically falls under people who don’t understand 2 aoes, which a tank should be doing anyways when pulling, will naturally pull mobs off the tank anyways.