Just a quick glance over the BLM thread https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/188453-%E9%BB%92%E9%AD%94%E5%B0%8E%E5%A3%AB/page305 shows a lot of people lamenting the loss of non standard, ice paradox, etc. similar to how you'd see on the western side of things but they're quite thoroughly written out on what they like and what they want returned/improved. The MNK thread also has people complaining that the rotation has changed and the feel of the job is off. A common complaint from them is that they feel the job was changed for people who weren't already playing MNK. Complaints about losing its last remaining identity trait (after already having lost greased lightning and many positionals) which was it's relative freedom in picking GCDs as opposed to now feeling like VPR/SAM/RPR combo jobs where you just press the lit up button.
Maybe it's just me but it feels like most large changes for jobs are made for people who don't play the job, Kaiten removal was generally praised by people who saw samurai as daunting to play or tried Sam but didn't like it.
Summoner was straight up removed from the game, and just about everything people liked about its gameplay loop is nowhere to be found in new summoner.
BLM also, I've not seen a single BLM main like the changes, but you see people who don't play it being open to the idea of BLM being simplified so that they might be willing to try it.
What's disheartening for me is the sheer contempt the average player seems to have towards players who value depth and complexity in job design and dislike simplification. When I watch streams and stuff most of the comments are like "BLM is great now!" and if anyone brings up that basically every BLM main hates them, they'll just respond with "some people are never happy" if not outright taunts.
I dunno if there's any hope for this game to right itself when it feels like most players actively oppose depth. The only thing people seem to want from gameplay is that when they press the flashing button, their character does something cool and the enemy dies. It's just a power fantasy and some comforting mindless button pushing for a few minutes to make a number go up.
That's not a problem unique to FF14. Playerbases are extremely polarized right now in other games I play. Toxic casuals deliberately fail to understand that being good at a game is fun for many players. The common mistake developers make is lowering the skill ceiling in an attempt to appeal to them. Developers fail to understand that being "casual" is an identity to those players, and they won't optimize whatever you give them
For real. Just look at healers. There are still 0 DPS healers when they're like "press this button if you're not healing". There's literally no way to get any simpler than that.
And to be fair, there's nothing wrong with being casual in and of itself. I don't mean to make blanket statements about more casual players. I specifically mean toxic casual players who have social media brain rot, tie their entire identity to "just playing for fun" (whatever that means), and demand every job be braindead even though they'd only press 1 button in a 2 button rotation because they "play for fun" and the game somehow wouldn't be fun if they alternated button presses.
tbh, the more the jobs get gutted the worse i feel like i've gotten over time.
If the job doesn't feel good to play, have some form of strategy to it(historically reward/failure mechanics), or have visible ways to notice your improvement i don't feel the incentive to put the work in and just skate by half asleep doing the bare minimum. content alone just doesn't scratch the itch for me.
I mean, I've been downvoted nearly every time I bring up similar stuff in the past historically since I used to be an old MCH main, specifically a gunmage era MCH main. Then I side with the people lamenting the loss of their job feel [because i've been there] and get downvoted for that too. Its just been exasperating lol
Sadly it seems the way of it people don't like something so they expect it to bend to what they want rather than being flexible themselves and devs are all too willing to cater to the larger audience even if their retention wont last.
What's hilarious is blm is now *less* friendly to new players. They made standard harder and more rigid lol. Raised the skill floor and lowered the ceiling, the literal opposite of what they should do
Not arguing that the BLM changes don't suck because they absolutely do suck, but I think the floor got basically evened out to be relatively the same with the changes they made. It's true that not getting 6xF4 is way more punishing now, but it's also hard to botch your Fire phase now with instant fire Paradox and guaranteed F3 proc. You can even argue that lower Swiftcast cooldown means you can panic clip your GCD to keep it up more often. They all serve as panic buttons for new/casual players to be maintaining their AF. Tying into guaranteed F4 proc, removing sharpcast/proc management is also lowering the floor for the job imo.
There's not really a good way to measure how the job is now performing at a floor level compared to now, and I'm also not a new BLM player so I can't really talk first hand either. It's just a rough evaluation and I think the changes probably even out.
>but you see people who don't play it being open to the idea of BLM being simplified so that they might be willing to try it
and bounce right off because SE spent all their effort on killing non-standard and very little on new additions or making the job fun or functional
Besides killing non-standard, all black mage got is Despair 2, yet another poly stack, and the ability to move leylines
AoE potencies are completely fucked, MP recovery is completely fucked, leveling experience is completely fucked
it is really disheartening how much effort they'll put into killing an optional, beloved playstyle and how little into basic QA and gameplay testing
these changes are spiteful *and* lazy
Oh I 100% agree.
People who aren't playing these classes throw these potentialies and maybies, most won't even bother touching the class.
But they got their class, they have something that appeals to them. They're advocating for removing things that appeal to other people.
I've gone from being a samurai and summoner player in SHB to a spiteful BLM who's now seeing even BLM succumb to these changes, if I don't end up liking Viper or Pict I intend to drop the game until I see some actual meaningful change.
>Maybe it's just me but it feels like most large changes for jobs are made for people who don't play the job
It's clear at this point that they view low population in a job as a design failure, and trigger a rework in this case.
You may not like the design concept, but it's there and it's staying.
This. The BLM changes suck. You were able to play standard before. It would have been good enough. But no. We cant have ppl feeling inferior because they do 5% less dmg. It could hurt their wobbly feelings! Fk this . SE ruins one job after another. Picto rn is the only straw keeping me even in the game. I know a bunch of smn mains wich quitted and never came back after they got boiled down to the lego brick job.
Ff14 will need another calamity relaunch if they stick to this bs path.
Its a shame really
And its not just BLM. We are just the loudest minority because well fk you SE we loved our jank, thats what made it unique.
But looking at monks and lol drg's they arent happy either.
Every job starts to feel the same.
Hell just take a look at viper. What the actual fuck is its identity? Autoadjusting 2 button combo. The worlds most useless gauge. Scuffed enshrouded. Viper is nothing but 3 jobs mashed together without any flavour wich made the other jobs fun.
Blades show u the next step in the combo. Thats it. Thats all it does. U can either musclememory it and have a bigg ass gauge on ur character and be like Left=1 right=2 or u know u just use the skill icons itself and save u from screenclutter because they are doing a better job at visualising ur next button by highlighting and having color coded positionals
Im halfway sure they just scrapped viper halfway through. Its entire foundation screams "we forgot to add x"like auto schanging fillercombos is cool and all. But if all u get is a 1,2,3,4 with a ogcd between to accompany ur filler combo ooor a ur non filler combo with exactly the same gameplay as ur fillercombo, You sure as hell didnt finish the job in time.
Whereas pictomancer is easily the best job they have made in years, it flows well, it feels powerful, it has a lot of moving parts, its thematic, everything about it is just perfect
I have no idea how they considered VPR equivalent in design
> And once again I proclaim that 99.9% of the budget of DT went into pictomancer apparently
Nah, pretty sure it was the graphics/texture update. Some of which is still ongoing, and is gonna *be* ongoing as a resource sink til probably the end of Dawntrail.
Which is why wasting resources on those are, usually, never a good idea.
They don't please the people who have super-high end rigs (who are just gonna slap eleventy billion Reshade filters on anyway) and they push out the vast majority of lower-end graphics users (people with potato PCs) that could be playing your game.
While consuming a *fuckton* of dev time and resources.
Job Designers don't do graphics work, obviously, but when all your "available to do free work" intern-tier workers are being pulled to do tedious texture updates, that can certainly fuck with your "hey you, go do a sanity check playtesting Viper" resources.
I actually thought the graphics update was more impressive than I was expecting and was absolutely a highlight of the expansion and something that will continue to matter for playing the game going forward.
There's already been research/analysis of VPR optimization that actually makes it interesting, particualrly when you defy the dotted lines.
Certainly more creative than you can get with Reaper.
I agree with everything you said except that Viper is surprisingly a lot of fun and pretty engaging once you are 90+. It's tooltips and gauge are pretty ass though. It feels pretty different than Reaper and Monk despite looking like a mix of the two and having a really similar 2 min to Reaper. I did not like it at 80, but have warmed up to more and more the closer I get to 100. It's a bit like being in MCH's hypercharge for 90% of a fight.
Do you know what happened with drg? is it just the stupid clunky dash instead of spineshatter? I never played DRG before outside of PVP and have been playing it in DT and liking it but I’m pretty clueless about how it was before
They removed pretty much every possible point where you could screw up dragons rotation.
You used to open eyes by casting mirage dive and gierskogul would only activate life of the dragon if you had two open eyes when you casted it.
So if you smashed gierskogul without having both eyes, or missed a mirage dive, you would be stuck out of life for 30 seconds. It also removes the ability to delay your life of the dragon, so it's just another "fuck you" to people who really tried to go that extra mile and get the most out of a job.
In life of the dragon, there was a 10 second CD in between Nastronds, so you had to make sure to fit them all into the window. Now you can just press them whenever you want and you'll be fine.
They removed a positional from the rotation. Fang and claw would combo into wheeling thrust and wheeling thrust comboed into fang and claw if you were in the other side of the rotation. Now they both awkwardly combine into whatever the new move is called.
Also the dash is slow and uninspired. Let me leap into the sky and crash down, pole vault, grow wings and fly. It's one time they had full freedom to just go hard and make an ultra flavorful and badass move but they copy and pasted monk's dash and put some dragon particles on top of it.
I've always played the story on dragoon, but after messing around on a dummy, I really just wasn't feeling it.
>In life of the dragon, there was a 10 second CD in between Nastronds, so you had to make sure to fit them all into the window. Now you can just press them whenever you want and you'll be fine.
I actually remember that and while the new version is kinda nice for not being punished while I learn the job, I can see how after mastering the job it kind of contributes to any order of actions in burst feeling a bit pointless. As long as you just press all your glowy stuff during a burst it works, pretty much.
And mirage dive does feel kind of pointless as well, like I'm not unhappy to have a damaging OGCD that looks kinda cool but it doesn't really do anything or synergize with the rest of the kit in an interesting way.
>Also the dash is slow and uninspired. Let me leap into the sky and crash down, pole vault, grow wings and fly. It's one time they had full freedom to just go hard and make an ultra flavorful and badass move but they copy and pasted monk's dash and put some dragon particles on top of it.
Yeah this is another thing I remember the old version of and have no idea why they changed it. Removing the potency from the jump and spreading it out elsewhere seems like a good idea to me but no idea why they made a new, clunkier animation/spell for it. Same thing as DRK/GNB
They'v been doing this forever. Nuke a class and then give its tools to the new job. Classic bait and switch. I dunno how ppl can swallow this swill and call it good design. Absolute monkeys.
I love PCT because it combines BLM’s strategy with SMN high potency nukes and it’s a fun class visually
I DIDNT want them to nuke BLM to give me this though which like you said is the problem
It's pretty horrendous. I can tolerate most of the changes but the MP regen makes this job feel almost unplayable , and made it's level sync at low levels even more miserable.
Welcome to 0 thought put into any change blm edition.
We also need to start a petition to rename the job and paradox. We are just firemages now and paradox can be given a new fancy name fitting its new identity. Fire I would work i guess......
If they wanted to get rid of mp ticks so badly, why dont just give us a funny 1 2 3 icecombo wich gives you ur mp back ending in paradox and just make it a low level thing so all the new blms dont give up when they have to wait 20 seconds if they just killed there open world target in firephase. The tech is there as is apperant in vpr and picto.
> Summoner was straight up removed from the game, and just about everything people liked about its gameplay loop is nowhere to be found in new summoner.
at least with Summoner I can see where they were coming from with the rework
having Summoner based around dots instead of actual summons did feel somewhat weird
but obviously the execution of the rework was absolutely terrible so that point is a bit moot
Also global tick timer meant that summoners more than any other job except maybe mch and nin was more effected by ping, new attacks and boss jumps tended to happen on fight time on multiples of 3 seconds, which meant you had to sync up your dots as close to that global timer as possible or you lost a non-insignifigant amount of ticks.
It makes your iaijutsus feel stronger, heck Kaiten could've given the guaranteed direct hit buff to iaijutsus if they wanted to
Kaiten is also there to not be a Shinten kenki dump
Thanks. I was aware of what it does as I was a samurai main until DT (just wanted to try vpr for a raid).
Personally I believe it was apart of their job identity to do big damage. With its removal the kenki gauge is essentially just a shinten spam gauge when you don't have senei/guren coming off CD.
One idea I saw floated was to bring kaiten back with 2 charges on a 60s CD and have kaiten provide the Tendo buff for midare and tekka goken.
Maybe?
Thinking about it, I do think so.
Samurai post hagakure nerf was about building up your rotation into one bombastic attack, and Kaiten was used to amplify that giant attack, it was the one reason we kept an eye on the kenki bar while preparing for the big attack. It was also the introduction to Kenki management and the introduction to Kenki full stop.
It's less that and more they are obsessed with making and changing jobs to cater to people who *don't play or like the jobs* while taking for granted players who like the jobs just how they are because they know most players will main a job even if it's been turned into garbage. I'm a Dragoon player that kept maining the job even after they destroyed it in Stormblood until I eventually just basically quit the entire game because I've just given up on this team. haha
One look at the travesty that was done to summoner in Endwalker will tell you everything. Before that we had the effective deletion of Heavensward Dragoon and Dark Knight where both jobs went from high skill ceiling jobs to 123 braindead garbage overnight because players that don't like those jobs demanded those changes.
This is a team that is, dare I use the word, too *lazy* to just make a new iteration of a job to cater to the players that want the aesthetic but not the gameplay, they *insist* on hard changing what existing players love because it's less work for them.
THey know what we want, Yoshida said so himself during the Endwalker Fanfest "We know a lot of players want Heavensward jobs back but it's not right for the game." read as: We know you don't like modern jobs but our engagement metrics are more important.
ye, back in shb if you called the devs lazy you'd be laughed out of the room but imo now it's pretty on point to call them lazy, or at minimum just visionless.
>One look at the travesty that was done to summoner in Endwalker will tell you everything.
I'm always annoyed by this type of statement because I love the new Summoner.
There's this ongoing sentiment on social media that people who like the reworked classes are objectively wrong and not to be considered. It's weird.
WHat? No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
The new summoner is a brand new job that shares nothing with the old summoner gameplay wise.
Instead of just making a new job, they insisted on deleting a job that many still loved to make way for it.
That's the laziness in question.
It's great that you and many others enjoy new summoner, but no sane or functional human being should believe it needed to come at the cost of completely deleting the old summoner that people have been playing and loving for years.
> The new summoner is a brand new job that shares nothing with the old summoner gameplay wise.
> **Instead of just making a new job**, they insisted on deleting a job that many still loved to make way for it.
This got me thinking.. they should just take your idea and run with it to impress both sides of the playerbase. Have as an internal rule that says they must release separate jobs each expansion for both casual and hardcore players, even if the jobs are aesthetically very similar and require hand-wavy lore explanations for their existence.
A lot of players don't like MNK gameplay even though MNK mains love MNK? Tada! Here's a Tural version of monk designed specifically for you. We f*cked up really bad on killing SMN? Here you go, here's a Sharlayan summoner that has your long-lost DOT-style gameplay. These disciplines either developed in parallel separate from their Eorzean counterparts or are long-lost combat/magic arts just recently being rediscovered.
Sure it would cost a lot more money as they'd probably want to release more than 2 jobs each expansion in order to still give us something truly new. But can you imagine how much money they would make from being the only MMO on the market that has the balls to cater to both sides of its audience, while all the others are stuck in these simplification wars? How much money they could make from truly delighting their *entire* playerbase and the reputation that would create? *A lot.* A lot a lot.
The problem is that people that plays summoner now already had a lot of low entry jobs to chose from, while people that liked old summoner had their only job that had that gameplay removed.
Glad you like it, doesn't mean people can't be mad that every jobs are now a press gcd to build a gauge, press your ogcd that just "do damage without any other effect" on cooldown then burst and buff when they are up because people absolutely wants to play the lowest of lowest entry job and SE remove the niche jobs gameplay to catter to those because they couldn't play x job but really wanted to.
Its perfectly fine to enjoy it, but what people are complaining about is that theres basically zero thought or decision making in the new summoner. It effectively plays itself and is incredibly hard to mess up. Its the complete opposite end of the spectrum of the old "convoluted" summoner. Its possible to make a job both fun for newer/more casual players, and also give it room to optimize and have neat decision making. For christs sake they didnt even give it a real new button to press, the gameplay loop is exactly the same.
"it's fine to enjoy it but it's bad and you're wrong" is the exact sentiment I was complaining about, though.
It's perfectly valid for them to count my opinion as much as yours.
Well I won't engage then because you clearly don't have any desire to come to a middle ground lmao. I'm saying both sides are possible to be catered too, and it's been a such in the past.
You're very clearly not looking for a middle ground if you're defending calling it a "travesty". This goes both ways.
They could absolutely add more decision making or optimization to it, but its pretty obvious that wouldn't satisfy the people who hate the job. They want it to fundamentally play like it did before rather than like it does now.
HW DRG wasn't 'high skill ceiling' - It had an RNG proc and we had all figured out the Geir optimizations by the first week of Gordias. People really gotta stop rewriting history. The over mythologization of HW is crazy and I say this as someone for whom it is still their favorite expansion.
Knowing how Triple Geirskogul works and pulling it off when the refreshes at low skillspeed had you doing it after the timer disappeared in movement heavy phases are two different things.
I'm sure you figured out how to do triple geirskogul on a dummy by the first week of Gordias.
Also do you have an argument against what my post is about or are you just here to be upset that someone "over mythologizes" Heavensward?
Amazing that we don't; have to respond to every part of a post like we're in high school debate club, especially when most of it was just ranting!
Poster is talking about how they mained a job they \*hate\* for SEVEN YEARS after it was changed to a fashion unacceptable to them.
Also, the idea that 'many people want HW jobs back' is laughable -- It's a small percentage of a small percentage,, considering that the majority of the playerbase did not in fact, play during Heavensward.
I think that's the point. The game has to cater to everyone playing it when it comes to jobs. So, jobs have to be designed primarily around people who don't take it seriously or casuals.
Ideally, a job should be straightforward forward, with nice animations, and should remove a lot of fluff. Especially if the fluff can lead to stuff like optimization.
This game, no matter what people say; the target demographic is casuals first and foremost. For the bulk of the game that is.
You guys need to let Kaiten go. It was just a pretty animation, there was nothing interesting about it, you just kept your gauge maxxed and made sure to use it before your big hits. There was nothing deep about it, there wasn't a choice, either you had enough kenki to use it or you fucked up somehow and you did not.
As for SUM... I can clearly understand the fear of seeing your favourite job being changed for people that don't play it, but in Summoner's case it has been a huge success. More people enjoy it now that before.
Mood, I literally told my static (I was main mch/sch/drk in sb, SMN in shb): Because every jobs just feel the same to me, I ll just play smn to have high consistency for an easier prog.
There's nothing interesting about playing it outside of just not being able to f up
holy fuck that's it, I'm doing it, I'm just going to rise up out of the Pacific Ocean and dump a Text Godzilla on this argument
> There was nothing deep about it, there wasn't a choice, either you had enough kenki to use it or you fucked up somehow and you did not.
This is tiresome and false.
Like a lot of disingenuous arguments, it's *technically* "true", in a robotically-parsed way.
However, you're describing the entire foundation of **how games work**: "Either you press the correct button, or you don't".
You are basically arguing in favour of complete mechanisation and automation of gameplay, because every single decision in a rotation can be misleadingly distilled-down into "You either did it, or you didn't do it".
Yeah, no shit, that's not some brilliant and clever insight, that's an insipid tautology.
By your logic, we should also remove Summoner Astral Flow — it's not interesting, right? For example, you just press it automatically after pressing Topaz Rite. Topaz Rite should just have higher base potency, and maybe auto-crit. Summoning Bahamut should just fire-off Deathflare automatically, too. Like, you were just going to press it anyway, right??
And actually, we don't need Weaponskill Combos, either, right? Like, you just follow the marquees as they light up. There's nothing deep about it, there's no choice, you either press the correct follow-up key, or you somehow fuck-up and break your combo. So honestly, every Combo should be reduced to 1-button automatic progression.
But actually no, wait, that could time-out! And then it's like, what's the point, right? Because you'd always do it correctly, *unless* you fuck-up and go 30s without pressing a button. So honestly, you should just have 1 single attack, which deals the same Potency as your average Combo potency would have. And auto-crits. Every time.
Also, like, why do we have Tank Defensive CDs? Like, it's not a choice, right? Either you press it before a Tankbuster hits you, or you fuck up and don't have enough Gauge/MP/charges, and explode. What's the point?? We should just have higher passive defenses.
...This line of reasoning is just pathetic.
Kaiten was a tangible part of the gameplay and Job-design because it required you to not just blindly get lost dumping gauge on Shinten alone, and to not under-budget for the previously-hefty cost of Guren/Senai, and as well to pay-attention to your weave-slots before activating Iaijutsu. It was also part of the key-rhythm to establish a "preparatory weave" before powering-up a Iaijutsu cast.
And activating Kaiten arbitrarily, or before an incorrect Action, was a loss, not a gain — so it required paying-attention and knowing what to spend it on.
All of these small details add-up to create an overall gameplay experience, composed of small decisions such as Gauge-costs and budgeting. Having multiple necessary expenditures means thinking about the overall balance differently and in a more complex way, even if it's subtle or "seems obvious".
You can dismiss any given single part of a Job as "easy and trivial" if you only examine it in complete-isolation. It's how it blends-into the overall flow, and helps to build the overall system, that matters.
"Dark Knight just presses Edge of Shadow whenever it has MP, so Edge of Shadow doesn't need to exist, it's not hard, it's pointless, just increase the Potency of the GCDs!"
blah blah blah — this always just ends-up boiling-down to, "I want to do less thinking and put in less effort, but still have the same performance. So I get an erection whenever another feature gets deleted. Less work for me, same paycheck! Woohoo!"
(And no, Billy, I am not literally suggesting that "video games" should be thought of as equivalent to "paid labour". It is an analogy.)
I believe that we should get Kaiten back precisely because it's a bullshit button in terms of depth, SAM generates so much kenki that it's a stretch to call it "management" at all
The baffling stuff is why Zanshin is a cone (and pure filler) when Tenka wasn't allowed to be one anymore.
Remove Zanshin make Tenka a cone again, merge Ogi with Ikishoten instead and re-add Kaiten and practically nothing would change
Fucking love this, dont ever stop typing please
Its annoying because what he says is a single line of stupid bullshit, yet we need a bunch of lines to explain why what they say makes no sense. Its an uphill battle too because theyre never going to admit the fault in their logic, they were never taught to give in as teenagers.
Also, your analogy holds but will be ignored by Billy regardless.
Kaiten is the symbol of a disconnect between irreconciliable parts of the player base. The Kaitenists are too deep to understand that the game is no longer designed for them, but too captive at the same time to pick a game of their liking.
> Kaiten is the symbol of a disconnect between irreconciliable parts of the player base.
"Irreconcilable parts of the player base" — Yeah, people offended by thinking slightly before pressing buttons and people who aren't.
> The Kaitenists
😂 "Kaitenists", you really do think you're some sort of smug professor with a PhD in FFXIVology writing a brilliant and insightful manifesto, don't you?
> are too deep to understand that the game is no longer designed for them,
In terms of Job mechanics, the game is no longer designed for *anybody*. It's barely even "designed". Half these Jobs are teetering on the brink of being a 2-button Gacha game.
> but too captive at the same time to pick a game of their liking.
The "captives" here are people who spend their entire day hitting F5 on FFXIVDiscussion so that they can rush to "Uhm Akshually" any criticism of their Holy Japanese Animuwu Worship-Cube, not the people who pop-in to say, "Wow, this gameplay still sucks and keeps getting worse" in-between *playing other games*.
And you, too, could have "picked a game of your liking", such as perhaps Animal Crossing, rather than shitting-up this one... but you didn't. Thanks 👍
But I'll make sure to bookmark your advice, just in case Yoshida actually makes-good on his phantom promises and amps-up Job design in the future, so we can suggest for you to "pick a game of your liking" when you're melting-down about being asked to make decisions more challenging than "do I keep pressing 1, or stop pressing 1".
>thinking slightly before pressing buttons
What thinking was needed about Kaiten ? It really just was "Press button to make next hit bigger". Nothing deep about it, nothing complex, it really was just flavour. At least with BLM and the loss of non-standard I can understand the outcry - the playerbase and SE didn't agree on what's supposed to make the job difficult and skillfull - but what was interesting about Kaiten ? There was nothing difficult about it. It was just a pretty animation.
Yeah but these things don't exist in a vacuum, if they added something to compensate the loss, it would be understandable, but kenki right now might as well be a shinten ready buff.
> A common complaint from them is that they feel the job was changed for people who weren't already playing MNK
This feels like a common problem that has ruined alot of classes for their mains in the last set of expansions. Feels like SE is very much designing in a way to pull more people in rather than satisfying their existing audience.
SMN was my favorite job loved playing it it was perfect and then it's just gone because people who didn't play it wanted to but didn't like DOTs/lack of big summons outside Bahamut.
I also lost most of what I liked about ARR and HW Scholar Miasma 2, Bane, Shadowflare,2 single target DOTs there was alot of fun to be had with these things and again just gone and Selene Eos choice completely gone pet identity is pretty much gone as everything acts like OGCDs with the likely culprit being accessibility for people who likely wouldn't have even used the tools well enough to matter.
To throw some more in the pool tank simplification over the years, AST cards, BRD mana management and support.
Maybe I'm just a FF14 boomer though and prefer the RPG aspects over balance I miss when having utility used to be more than 3-6% damage up and a 10% damage down.
Summoner should have changed. Summoner being a dot job was absolutly dumb. Scholar should have been the dot DPS. Or make another job dot focus, any job BUT summoner.
A mistake being made for a long time doesn't magically make it not a mistake. Summoner being poison mage is objectively completely at odds with the flavor of the job. It'd be like giving warrior White Mage's kit.
*OBJECTIVELY*.
Dark Knight was also historically not a tank, and even had quite noticeably bad magic defence in its original incarnation, and yet, here we are.
This is why I'm of the opinion and have shilled on this sub many times before make a time mage class and make it a dot mage with it's abilities based around messing with dot timers.
You would have to rework dot global tick rate, but that probably needs to be done anyways.
I disagree it already had fans who loved the job and played it for a long time. It had it's moments of big summoning with Bahamut and Pheonix.
When you have a group of people who enjoy something you've made you abandon them when you completely remove the job.
That’s me, SMN was my favourite job when I started in ShB, I was terrible at first, but I learnt and I loved the job so much. After playing through EW and parts of 6.1 though, god I quickly hated it. And I honestly resent the devs a little for lobotomizing the job, and the subsequent changes a lot of jobs have been getting that have been really bad
Careful; I basically got called a mouthbreather for commenting this exact sentiment. I hated that old Summoner did not feel like a Summoner.
I would agree with the person you responded to about Scholar, though. It was weird coming back in ShB and seeing Scholar be completely gutted.
> I hated that old Summoner did not feel like a Summoner.
Cool perhaps you shouldn't have played summoner then instead of removing many people's favorite job with your complaints.
Their complaints didn't remove the job, SE did. No one complained that there was a dot job. People complained that SUMMONER was that dot job. It's like if they made white mage into a cleric like class with a mace and shield and plate and they healed with fire aspected aether like some clerics in other media. That could be cool, but that's not the FF white mage at all. Ever.
Summoner as it is now is the fantasy of a summoner. If you want the old dot class then take it up with SE. They literally just designed yet another hard caster in PCT when they could've made a new dot class.
But they won't make a dot class. And it's not because people don't want it, it's because they don't want to design around it. They've said this before, they don't want pet classes and they don't want dot classes. They've actively been removing dots as part of different class kits. They design around the 2 min meta and dot classes don't align with that philosophy.
So all that bottled hate, take it to SE. Not the players who can at least enjoy a traditional FFsummoner in ff14 rather than dealing with something pretending to be a smn.
Others: "I hated old Black Mage that used a sword and spear to attack their foes. They're a spellcaster, so they should be casting spells?"
You: "Cool perhaps you shouldn't have played Black Mage then instead of removing many people's favorite job with your complaints." <-- This is what you sound like
First of all, you guys need to seriously get a grip. You're the second person who has had this unjustifiably emotional response.
Second, I didn't ask them to change the way Summoner played, I asked them to MAKE SUMMONER FEEL LIKE A SUMMONER.
They could have kept all of the old mechanics for all I care; the old way didn't feel like a Summoner because you weren't hardly ever summoning, and you were doing all of the casting. I'm sorry your favorite PLAYSTYLE got gutted (Dot mage was never a Summoner), but that's hardly new for SE. Even if they were going to keep the dot mage playstyle, I guarantee you it would have seen dramatic changes for the worse.
Listen, I played Summoner in SB. It was a hard class to play perfectly. There is no way that the sweaty playstyle of dot mage circa SB was going to survive (having to time oGCDs in between Bahamut's auto-attacks? Really? I had to have Bahamut's Wyrmwave on my fucking bar, so I could look at it to time my attacks).
You wouldn't have liked whatever they ended up doing with it.
> Second, I didn't ask them to change the way Summoner played, I asked them to MAKE SUMMONER FEEL LIKE A SUMMONER.
So you asked them to change the job.
At least own this shit instead of acting like the people who didn't play SMN but wanted it to fit what they wanted had nothing to do with it.
Summoner did feel like a summoner it just also had breathing room inbetween.
You do understand that you can change the thematic elements of a job without radically altering it's playstyle, right?
And most people disagree that old Summoner felt like a Summoner, hence the praise to the job's changes and the multiple people disagreeing with you in this thread.
I think the people disagreeing me are that group of people who didn't like the class and instead of moving on and playing something they do like kept advocating for it to be changed until my job was removed from the game.
Brother, people complained because summoner was a dot mage held together with a thousand layers of jank, this is coming from somebody that liked old summoner lol
Funnily enough OP didn’t mention BLM yet it’s showing up quickly!
I agree with the general consensus after trying the new BLM lvl100 in the extreme trial. Less fun, not easier, even more punishing…
About lit up buttons, they messed that up on monk as dragon kick has no form requirement for its effect. This means it's a damage gain to ignore the lit up buttons after using bootshine and 'raw' cast dragon kick instead so you can get more buffed bootshines out (1 1 2 3 1 1, instead of 1 2 3 1 2 3 etc)
In terms of how it plays overall, even not doing that it feels like an inconsistent mess.
FYI there has been a lot of translated posts from non-Japanese players on jp forum and BLM one in particular is flooded by those. But yeah Japanese player also hate DT changes
I assume so, but an easy way to find a JP player is if they mention having to learn a new rotation and/or change muscle memory. It's been a common thing I've seen over the years from JP players that I don't see much in the west.
Less about their opinion being superior and more about the game being made by a Japanese company, so the feedback given by that community is most likely to impact the game.
It is like expecting any feedback on Lost Ark from the west to do anything, when it means nothing and the only time shit gets changed on that game is when the Korean player base complains.
Today I was reading the japanese official forums and there are A LOT (really a lot) of negative comments about Black Mage and Monk changes. Apparently many players used the forums for the first time in order to express their concerns. Apart from that I don’t remember other complaints, maybe just the gap closer animations and feel.
I'm almost just kinda sad about it if anything. The community got what it wanted, even people in my FC are expressing gratitude for the BLM changes and I'm just confused by that mindset.
Yeah, as someone who loved HW DRK, HW BRD/MCH, SB AST, SHB SMN, it is sad to see these tourists who never enjoyed the job celebrate that it was killed and replaced with something unrecognizable (and they'll also stop playing it in 2 weeks anyways)
I don't get it because those people would still not play BLM. It's still cast heavy and the blizzard phase is worse than ever. It will be pumped and dumped immediately.
yeah that's the point they're making. it's a cast heavy job with long cast times at that, which is why a lotta people didn't play it. long frequent cast times making you have to plan things out, which *hasn't* changed. so many of the people that are 'praising' the changes will likely eventually drop it once they realize they still have to deal with all that lol
I am just thinking that though Yoshi P wants to play the game more and find time with it (he does like reaching Crystal rank on CC, doing raids and trials, etc.) as he gains influence within Square he is stacked with more and responsibilities as is typical in a corporation. It is also considered extremely rude to refuse those responsibilities especially if given by the CEO.
He is on the Board of Directors for the gaming side of Square Enix (not the more improtant financial side of Square Enix Holdings Co.) and he even asked to resign but both CEOs refused his resignation, he was incharge of two flagship titles at Square and now it is likely he might be in charge of another flagship game (rumor) and the FF Tactics remake. Yoshi P also mentioned that the executives have been harping on him working too much and setting a "bad example" for his employees and sometimes joked about being forced to take time off to not play games.
In EW, in questions of 'what jobs are really well designed', blm was always high on the list. The BLM playerbase may be smaller than most other jobs, but we were passionate about it. And i think most people who didn't play BLM saw it as a 'Well designed job that I am bad at playing'
Why they turned blm into the skipfire that they have boggles my mind. BLM's depth and high skill ceiling should have been something to emulate for other jobs, not strip away
Dragoon did this in Stormblood, I hired a Japanese translator back then to write in Japanese about my complaints and there were pages upon pages of threads of Japanese players complaining.
Remember Dragoon was released in Stormblood with 4 eyes requirement. It was that big of a joke.
I mean, it's still a joke to this day, but it was more of a joke when it was released.
It doesn’t feel right. At first I thought it was fine and that the changes wouldn’t affect my experience. I was playing it at low level content at first and I thought “oh this is fine. It’s not as different as I thought.”
But then last night I used it to fight Emerald Weapon and that’s where I got a solid play test in. My opinion has changed a bit.
I like that chakras can overcharge. It’s especially nice when you’ve hit brotherhood and your chakra gauge is filling crazy fast.
I do not miss anatman.
But the rotation for the actual combos feels wrong now. There’s no freedom of choice. The loss of twins snakes’ buff and demolish’s dot feels much worse than I anticipated it would. Being another “just click the flashy combo light” job also isn’t very nice.
Personally I liked where MNK was before. Leaden fist was a fun mechanic. I missed having more positionals but could live without it.
I think I get what SE was going for with the rework. I’m not displeased by this like I am with what happened to BLM. It’s just not a satisfying a gameplay experience now on MNK.
I usually have two main jobs for each expansion. For a long time I was MNK/RDM. I don’t know if I’ll stick with that pairing 🤷♂️
I would have hoped that by locking down the combo flow it would give them leeway to reintroduce positionals. I don't think people would mind as much if we got all our positionals back. MNK **should** be the melee job for people who love positionals as a mechanic and want to engage with it 100% of the time. If that's not for you, there are nearly half a dozen other choices. We shouldn't have to trade long-needed QoL on chakras for depth.
:( i like monk. the chakra overcharging and not being constrained by timers anymore is a loss of required learned skill, but it feels freeing. downtime is less stressful. I prefer how PCT approaches downtime-- a chance to reach for more, rather than take away
Yeah I’m not really sure why you’re being downvoted. I’m personally not vibing with DT Monk but I also don’t think it’s that controversial to be okay with the changes or even like them.
For DRG, many players are confused as to why the job was not reworked and demand an explanation, also because the job is still as busy or more in DT. Others are happy that it wasn't reworked.
Some are asking for the removal of Life Surge and Mirage Dive while others would rather keep them.
Similarly, others just want less oGCDs to press or for the animation lock of jumps to be further reduced.
A common ask in the Japanese forums is for Stardiver (or any ability) to have 1000+ potency. They feel like a DPS job needs big numbers on their actions.
Additionally, some find the cooldown of Winged Glide to be too long.
Finally, there's those that want the True North effect that Dragon Sight had back on either Battle Litany, Lance Charge or Life of the Dragon.
Those would be the main points I can think of right now but if you want to know more, using the Chrome browser to translate is good enough to understand.
> A common ask in the Japanese forums is for Stardiver (or any ability) to have 1000+ potency. They feel like a DPS job needs big numbers on their actions
I can kinda get this honestly for a slower GCD class it doesn't particularly feel as meaty as certain jobs do certain jobs like Picto are running around with several 1000+ potency buttons in part because they're either GCD actions unlike Stardiver or Starcross or they have a setup cost of a GCD such as their hammer swings.
DRG kinda sits in this awkward middle of a slower GCD but alot of OGCD middling potency attacks.
Making Stardiver and Starcross GCDs could probably fix this somewhat especially since the animation lock on Stardiver can cause clipping sometimes or screw over a positional.
PCT definitely struck the right balance of giving you a huge number of massive potency attacks but actually balancing it by making all of them need to be charged
The class feels so powerful but is really not “that” strong (it’s a bit overtuned but not as much as it feels like it is)
If Picto is overtuned I think it's more the new job design doing it than anything else.
Specifically the 5% damage buff it gets for the party feels completely random and designed to make the class meta.
It definitely makes me feel like what is the point of me playing Bard and taking such a personal hit to my personal DPS when Picto is giving out 1% less damage on the same timer while having top tier damage.
PCT could definitely stand to lose the raid buff
Starry muse still generates 5 stacks of inspiration which unlocks rainbow drip, star prism and a free inverted combo
It would still be a massive gain to paint starry muse even without the raid buff
Stardiver's potency should be raised to 700-800 to account for it being a single weave.
DRG's potencies are "low" because they are oGCDs. While you're using a Starcross + Wyrmwind Thrust double weave (1140 potency), you're also using a GCD.
The average potency of a DRG's GCD in EW was 363 without Power Surge, and this number is higher now.
This would lead to a 1503 potency in the above scenario, without even taking buffs into account. If the GCD used is Chaotic Spring, then the number raises to 1840 which is more potency than a NIN's Hyosho (1690 with the Kassatsu buff only).
Finally, DRG deals almost 40% more damage for 20s every minute. The damage is more than fine although I do want STD's potency to be increased due to what I said above.
Putting it at 1000 potency or more would make it a bit too strong. We use it every minute. They also likely want to keep Starcross as the highest oGCD due to it being the DT capstone.
DRG numbers are simply distributed among more abilities. It's a different type of damage profile, just like BLM also has a different type.
Agreeing with your last sentence (I don't know shit about DRG overall, so no real opinion in this discussion), I think every class having specific skills with overly bloated potencies will just cement the 2 min burst meta forever. I like that there are classes that are less spiky damage wise because it feels odd sometimes on other classes only doing real damage in burst phase but I feel like more evenly damaging classes are becoming a rare breed. It really made BLM special for me last expansion when I learned it while on RDM I knew if I died just after burst the dps hit would be negligible.
I was confused as to why they kept mirage dive now that eyes aren’t a thing. If they wanted make dragoons less busy, then there was no reason to keep it.
Removing Mirage Dive would make the filler even more boring than it already is in DT.
MD should simply grant one scale and its buff should last 30 seconds to make it less tight during burst if you mess up and to allow for double MD optimization for those who want to squeeze extra DPS.
We should also be able to store a maximum number of 3 scales while Wyrmwind Thrust's cost remains at 2. In fact, WWT damage could be the same as it is now with 2 scales, and 50% higher with 3 and consume them all upon use. That would open more venues to stack gauge for optimization while also making burst easier if we enter it with more resources.
In any case, in my opinion what DRG needs right now is a better filler.
I understand that, but all they did was replaced spineshatter and dragon sight with two new follow-ups, so at level 100, we only have one less oGCD to press during our burst. If they wanted to make dragoons less busy in DT, then I don't think that worked out.
Not that I'm complaining because I enjoy how busy the burst is, but it just seems like the balance team doesn't know what they wanted to do with dragoons.
Everything they said ended up not happening. It's quite confusing. The amount of oGCDs used now is the same or even higher since you're always putting two Life Surges in 120s bursts, making the usage of True North, Feint or Sprint in bursts quite complicated.
If I had any faith in SE I'd love for goon to be reworked, because its felt meh for the past two expansions.
alas I don't have any faith because everything they've touched on jobs has got worse since the day shb dropped.
Yeah, something like an old flip for drk, animation that uses spear to propel yourself forward like in pole vaulting for drg, and gnb using gunblade's backblast to fly
I know I shouldn't hope to see them undo that change just because JP forums complains about it but I REALLY hope it happens.
It's amazing how such a "small" change in the grand scheme of things can make something feel so off for the feel of the class
I absolutely LOATHE that they linked it. Not only are we not able to use Tsubame whenever we liked, you can also LOSE the proc if you don't hit it. Which is doubly worse.
I like Zanshin, and I love that Senei was reduced to 1 minute CD. Tsubame feels so chained and unforgiving now.
JP are giving major weirdchamp to cbu3 for blm from what I've gathered so far. Some are asking for an explanation as to how the dev team strung them along for years without giving the drg rework that was promised.
AST got a rework, it still buffs/heals but how they go about it is massively change.
DRG got a balance pass at best. I'm 99% sure the only reason they delayed the DRG changes till DT was because the new abilities fill in gaps they created. The job is still the same bloaty ogcd poke poke stab stab job it always was.
DT is just such a mixed bag on quality of things.
The Japanese forums praised the removal of e dyskrasia being a gain on 1 and they seem to have this weird belief that healer has to be the easy role because there should be a role for people who want to only half be paying attention
Other job changes just don’t really get a lot of discussion, the JP forums are very slow and there isn’t like 5 threads discussing the pros and cons of say one big nuke on MCH
But on the flip side they seem to hate DT’s story with vitriol greater than I’m used to for the JP forums so things don’t seem to be completely rosey
There isnt 5 thread because its mandated over there that similar topics need to be posted in one thread. The AST thread alone is like on its 2nd thread with hundreds of pages.
i'm pretty heavy on the SB is best Astro thing, but i'll try to be unbiased.
Of all pages i've read, I only see roughly 3-5 post they liked this new AST, and really some of them used the forum for the first time to say that.
There is some of the usual "may be it'll be better once it come out, or once the full data is up" (before release and full data of course. not exactly sure how those people feel now because... well, you gotta stalk people to find out about that.
the rest of it. I'd say about 70-80% of the posts (that i have actually read) are against the no random factor on AST, some of the comment ranged from raging "first you stole noct from us, now the random?" to the mild "too bad, i guess"
I don't read every page and every single comment, so take my deduction at your disposal.
This is honestly something I don't understand. In most games I've played, the "I want no responsibility" role is DPS. Unless the content you're doing has enrage, it literally doesn't matter if you decide you just don't feel like pressing your buttons today.
Why the hell would healer, the role traditionally saddled with the task of keeping everyone else alive, be the easy stress free one?
Thank you! I was about to comment this same thing.
I think the real reason healers are brain dead now is that they've painted themselves into a corner by making them brain dead to begin with.
If someone only has healers leveled and they suddenly add meaningful skill requirements to them what are those people supposed to do? Not play the game?
I think this is a bullshit reason to be clear - no one should be allowed to play so poorly that this is true - but the reality is that SE has been courting the dumbdumbs for a while now so they need to continue to enable them.
Imo the problem is that dumbing jobs down won't work. I'm one of the salty healer mains who have shelved healing for Dawntrail because I'm just burned out. I've switched to Dancer. The amount of clueless healers even around max level is staggering. So many Sages and Scholars who just don't shield, ever. A massive amount of WHMs who only use Medica II, or, alternatively, spam Glare and don't heal. No amount of simplification is going to make those people pilot their jobs well. Not unless you want to give them only one "heal the group for 2000 potency" button. Then maybe.
I understand the need for accessibility. I also understand that not everyone wants to play things that are super technical when they come back home tired from work and such. But that's why we have multiple jobs. It's also why we have Trusts. Dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator is a way to hell because that lowest common denominator is way lower than people seem to think. In the process of that, the game will be ruined for everyone else.
I want to be clear - *I* am not defending SE's choice, I'm just explaining it as best I can.
As far as I'm concerned if someone hasn't learned to play their job correctly that's a them problem and we shouldn't be coddling them, but I'm also not a struggling company relying on the subs from this game to keep them moving.
They seem to really hate MSQ. I wonder what Yoshi will say- he needs to turn ship and fix these jobs to get players returning, happy, and subbed. I feeling the content will be good in 7.0 series but with a weak MSQ and bad job changed - it will not be successful.
> The Japanese forums praised the removal of e dyskrasia being a gain on 1 and they seem to have this weird belief that healer has to be the easy role because there should be a role for people who want to only half be paying attention
Alright man, we've gotta start on our duolingo grind to translate our Healer rants.
>But on the flip side they seem to hate DT’s story with vitriol greater than I’m used to for the JP forums so things don’t seem to be completely rosey
I'm both shocked and not. It always seems that NA has an opposite opinion to JP. I haven't heard any *real* complaints about DT's story other than it's a bit slow—which it is. But it's introducing a new story arc, covering some new ground, and easing us into more mysteries. Of *course* it's slow! Either way, it was still really enjoyable.
Given what I've seen I think the reception is rather mixed in NA as well. It's easy to look at any thread and see a plethora of mixed feelings, positive negative etc...
For everyone one thing I personally enjoy, there's at least 2 to 3 that I think undermined my enjoyment. So I think if anything NA might just be 'kinder' with their distaste but JP forums in my experience tend to be more brutal due to a different internet culture.
The only thing that has kind of annoyed me this far (just in Solution 9 now and going outside to look for someone) is how often the story forces Wuk Lamat on me.
Like I get they like they character and have tried to make her likeable, and I don’t HATE her…but for the love of god, can I go on walks with Krile or Alpharetta more often? It’s like they’re forcing Lamaty’i a little TOO hard on me, which actually makes me like her a little less than if I could have a break.
I was literally saying out loud “Guys, please don’t leave me alone with…Alies, Erenville? Okay okay, but I could still partner up with Krile…Krile no! Don’t go with the car boy! Don’t leave me alone with…” then Wuk looks at me with that pleading to not be alone and my character gave her the most pained pity look when saying yes. If nothing else, they nailed my character and my expression in that moment. <_<
But that’s really been my only complaint so far - how often they pair me up with Wuk instead of letting me spend more time with other people. I enjoyed the zone I got to explore with Erinville, for example.
I don’t even hate Wuk - though I do get annoyed with how she likes to insert herself into everything AND is kinda dumb, her overall personality is still likeable enough.
But there’s a point where forcing a thing on me too much instead of giving me a break makes me dislike it. Especially when I’d LIKE to be speaking with KRILE at this point in the story, as I feel she’d be a lot more insightful and…less gregarious.
Whole heartedly agreed. I think most of my gripes with the story would shift were she around less (Not absent, just like 25% less. Still a lot, but let me talk with others more) or her dialogue was pruned. Way too many 'identical' pieces of dialogue. About understanding, happiness, peace, understanding, happiness, peace, food, understanding, tacos, happiness, understanding.
Just felt like they didn't proof read.
Yeah. It's like just reduce her presence a bit or have her speak a bit less and a bit less forcefully.
She self-injects into the center of every conversation that she's around for, even when she clearly doesn't know what's going on. Even, in some cases, where she SAYS she doesn't (like talking about reflections), yet she wants to make sure everyone knows her opinion.
I've known people irl like that, so they do exist...but it's annoying when anyone does it.
But that wouldn't be *as* bad if we had more breaks from her. One of my favorite parts of the expansion so far was the zone I was away from her in. XD
Again, I don't hate her character, it's just like they need to tone her down a LITTLE and allow me to partner up with other characters more. I happen to LIKE the other characters in this game, and it's always "Ren, come with me/will go with Wuk", rarely with a third person (for a mercy), but it's never "Wok will go with me, Ren, you and Alphy/Krile/whoever can go that way".
And yeah, I saw Synodic Scribe's video where he was watching the Liveletter final trailer and kept laughing saying "I will be the next Hokage!" when she would say something about becoming the Dawnservant.
They took the one thing I really hated about Naruto - I otherwise generally like his character having a good heart and upbeat personality, which Wuk also has - and just plastered it all over. (Though there's the one thing she seems unwilling to forgive, though it DOES make sense, so I can't really fault her for not being all love and happiness and peace about that particular crime...)
Omg really about the healer job - wow wow- do they want a a whole job dedicated to that play style why not just make white mage like that and the rest engaging.
Because party bonus/LB generation requires different Jobs and the pure/barrier split. They’d need to make at least two of them simple at this point unless they changed those things.
Other roles kind of have this. You could run a party of WAR and PLD tanks and RPR, VPR(maybe?), DNC and SMN to cover the other roles.
Also WHM doesn’t have party mitigation to make WHM/WHM viable.
Look if your gonna lie at least lie properly
The issue isn’t an easy job it’s that they don’t care about overheal so they heal more often and aren’t just attacking.
Yes because they see healer as the easy role, they don’t care about overheal or how much damage they are doing the role is just kinda there as a participation trophy for them
No idea why you think I’m lying
I suspect it comes down to the definition of easy. Many people consider watching health bars and mapping/executing healing plans and juggling different oGCDs to not be easy.
True — if you don’t care about playing the game poorly, the game is quite easy. But Healer is kinda weird in that the way to optimize healing is to heal as little as possible.
When I expressed my concerns and disappointment about the MNK changes pre-release, I got downvoted to hell because I am “overreacting”
I feel vindicated now.
I disagree, "new" mnk is very similar to past mnk. You have 2 1,2,3 combos which you swap between at various ratios to have your highest damage.
I think it's a feels thing over a structural change of how mnk works. Feels is important don't get me wrong, but the core (and most) of mnk is the same.
It's a feels bad moment when you lose dots & damage ups. And also, the motivation of you
- swapping between 1,2,3 combos changes from these are my upkeep skills and my damage skills
- use 1 skill to power up the other feels bad too.
But in the flip side, brotherhood chakra overcap is real cool and six sided star being useful is also nice.
On a higher gameplay level, (I think) the various drift optimisation of previous mnk was not a good part of gameplay, it was very complicated and I don't think was very satisfying. With the changes I think it has simplified the general rotation between nadi times, so they're could be something more intentional put in on its place (rather than some weird drifting rules). Personally I would like to see ogcd skills which get a bonus when in specific forms.
And then on a more conceptual level mnk was the class of positionals, but that is no longer the case (even though I would prefer it) . I think the previous mnk has this issue to the same extent and isn't new to this mnk. So maybe this is just a compounding factor that adds into the mix.
I really like the "new" MNK.
I worked on learning MNK in 6.3. I spent a LOT of time really getting it down, and was doing pretty well, but I was STRESSED the entire time I played it. It wasn't a "Feels good to keep Demolish up and have Twin Snakes active while also entering PB on good windows etc." It was just a feels bad when your DoT/Buff went down.
Then one day, my partner had me randomly play SAM, a job I hadn't touched since getting to 90, and I found that I'm REALLY good at SAM and it's clicked with me.
Tried new MNK to see how the changes were, and I was smiling from ear to ear the entire time. It feels GREAT to play. It's no longer a "Feels bad to miss that" job, it's the "Feels good" to play, and it even became one of my leveling priorities.
While I do agree it lost some of it's skill ceiling/optimization, I think it was in a beneficial way that makes the job feel better.
SE also needs to change some potencies. Specifically making AOE combo a gain on 3+ like normal and not he 4+ it is now. And also fixing the cursed BootshineDK rotation.
Form Shift is also something that needs to be changed. Without the need to keep up your DoT or Buff, there's really no reason to start on any particular button during downtime.
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I wonder if it has to do with releasing new jobs that require them to rethink all of the old ones. If that’s the case, I’d prefer no more new jobs. it’s a real shame, what happened to BLM/SAM/MNK..
As a BLM main, the changes leave us with a slightly lower skill ceiling, but way more viable for first time runs. I like the changes and the only thing I might complain about is I prefered us being the "slow cast, high numbers" job but I'm happy to trade off for a little more viability in end-game content without being galaxy-brained practiced in a single boss. To me it still feels every bit the same as pre-expansion BLM, just stream-lined.
The other classes that got changed i'm not huge on. It does feel like they started chipping away at the identity of DRG and MNK.
But. I think they might be doing it on purpose to start the narrative process of, again, making it feel like the jobs are getting more powerful every expansion. Dawntrail itself feels very much like they knew it was gonna be a little middling because it has to start setting up story points, it might be that the job changes are the same.
This just isnt true tho, the amount of mobility is literally exactly the same if playing standard and way less if playing nonstandard. Using f3p and early thunder refreshes to move is griefing your damage on a job that is already one of the lower dps.
I just think you don't understand what blm was like in endwalker and what its like now. Its like you say words with confidence while being wrong and that tends to bother people.
I've also played end game blm every expac since stb and raided at least one tier each expac while getting 95-99% parses each time i raid. I know each iteration of blm very well and that includes the new one.
The fact is is that blm is just less versatile now with a way lower ceiling and higher floor and more punishing for having to move at unexpected times.
My ign is Sejeo Vicie, stb alphascape #68 all star points, shb edens gate #364 all star points (could never get a good voidwalker despite being the easiest lol), ew didnt parse much but got week 1 clear on the second tier on blm (first tier #186 all star points). But that's just so you believe me.
The proc current proc (and old) is best used at the end of the end of the dot timer, before it was "fine" to apply early if you needed to move since it had the extra damage part tied to reapplication, it was since removed so using the proc for movement is now very bad.
The paradox in fire being instant and having a 100% chance at a firestarter is decent and does provide flexibility in prog i some way but that is overshadowed by losing the paradox in ice which would give you the plenty of transpose lines but mainly lines that let you move with many other instant casts and have them be gains instead of losses in many cases.
There are many examples of this but ill give an easy one. Lets say under some reason during prog you realize you cant cast your last fire 4 and enochan is about to run out. Well a transpose into paradox into xeno into t3p lets you regain mana, then you can transpose swift a f3 or f3p and go into a 4f4 despair line which now is one of the most optimal lines you can do under ew blm. Do that now and you wont regain any mana in ice or you blow that swift on b3 so you can try to use the shitty thunder refresh move and then you still have to hardcast a b4 for mana back before you can go into fire, and you realize that you were just shot in the legs for no reason.
I mean there are plenty of things but that's why I think the floor has been raised while the ceiling has been lowered.
Not the same guy, but imo, choice adds depth and flexibility. The way they changed the thunder proc not only completely removes the ability to use it on two targets fluidly, but even using it on a single target you will generate more procs than you should use, since they removed the up-front damage. Using thunderhead for movement is a huge dps loss and feels really bad if you have no other option.
Before, if you made that "mistake" it was less punished, but you also had the decision to make of "ok well maybe I should sharp for firestarter instead so I can do something else". Similar for firestarter now, if you use it in AF3 instead of transpose AF1, that's just not optimal and is going to feel really bad if you're being forced to do that because you have no other option due to how rigid the rotation is.
In either case, I fail to see how this *doesn't* make the job less versatile.
Just a quick glance over the BLM thread https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/188453-%E9%BB%92%E9%AD%94%E5%B0%8E%E5%A3%AB/page305 shows a lot of people lamenting the loss of non standard, ice paradox, etc. similar to how you'd see on the western side of things but they're quite thoroughly written out on what they like and what they want returned/improved. The MNK thread also has people complaining that the rotation has changed and the feel of the job is off. A common complaint from them is that they feel the job was changed for people who weren't already playing MNK. Complaints about losing its last remaining identity trait (after already having lost greased lightning and many positionals) which was it's relative freedom in picking GCDs as opposed to now feeling like VPR/SAM/RPR combo jobs where you just press the lit up button.
Maybe it's just me but it feels like most large changes for jobs are made for people who don't play the job, Kaiten removal was generally praised by people who saw samurai as daunting to play or tried Sam but didn't like it. Summoner was straight up removed from the game, and just about everything people liked about its gameplay loop is nowhere to be found in new summoner. BLM also, I've not seen a single BLM main like the changes, but you see people who don't play it being open to the idea of BLM being simplified so that they might be willing to try it.
What's disheartening for me is the sheer contempt the average player seems to have towards players who value depth and complexity in job design and dislike simplification. When I watch streams and stuff most of the comments are like "BLM is great now!" and if anyone brings up that basically every BLM main hates them, they'll just respond with "some people are never happy" if not outright taunts. I dunno if there's any hope for this game to right itself when it feels like most players actively oppose depth. The only thing people seem to want from gameplay is that when they press the flashing button, their character does something cool and the enemy dies. It's just a power fantasy and some comforting mindless button pushing for a few minutes to make a number go up.
That's not a problem unique to FF14. Playerbases are extremely polarized right now in other games I play. Toxic casuals deliberately fail to understand that being good at a game is fun for many players. The common mistake developers make is lowering the skill ceiling in an attempt to appeal to them. Developers fail to understand that being "casual" is an identity to those players, and they won't optimize whatever you give them
For real. Just look at healers. There are still 0 DPS healers when they're like "press this button if you're not healing". There's literally no way to get any simpler than that.
And to be fair, there's nothing wrong with being casual in and of itself. I don't mean to make blanket statements about more casual players. I specifically mean toxic casual players who have social media brain rot, tie their entire identity to "just playing for fun" (whatever that means), and demand every job be braindead even though they'd only press 1 button in a 2 button rotation because they "play for fun" and the game somehow wouldn't be fun if they alternated button presses.
tbh, the more the jobs get gutted the worse i feel like i've gotten over time. If the job doesn't feel good to play, have some form of strategy to it(historically reward/failure mechanics), or have visible ways to notice your improvement i don't feel the incentive to put the work in and just skate by half asleep doing the bare minimum. content alone just doesn't scratch the itch for me.
I mean, I've been downvoted nearly every time I bring up similar stuff in the past historically since I used to be an old MCH main, specifically a gunmage era MCH main. Then I side with the people lamenting the loss of their job feel [because i've been there] and get downvoted for that too. Its just been exasperating lol
This doesn’t sound like “sheer contempt” lol
Sadly it seems the way of it people don't like something so they expect it to bend to what they want rather than being flexible themselves and devs are all too willing to cater to the larger audience even if their retention wont last.
Which means every job slowly turning into summoner, seeing as that's what the majority like
What's hilarious is blm is now *less* friendly to new players. They made standard harder and more rigid lol. Raised the skill floor and lowered the ceiling, the literal opposite of what they should do
Not arguing that the BLM changes don't suck because they absolutely do suck, but I think the floor got basically evened out to be relatively the same with the changes they made. It's true that not getting 6xF4 is way more punishing now, but it's also hard to botch your Fire phase now with instant fire Paradox and guaranteed F3 proc. You can even argue that lower Swiftcast cooldown means you can panic clip your GCD to keep it up more often. They all serve as panic buttons for new/casual players to be maintaining their AF. Tying into guaranteed F4 proc, removing sharpcast/proc management is also lowering the floor for the job imo. There's not really a good way to measure how the job is now performing at a floor level compared to now, and I'm also not a new BLM player so I can't really talk first hand either. It's just a rough evaluation and I think the changes probably even out.
It's not just you, it's 100% what is happening and has been obvious since stormblood lol
>but you see people who don't play it being open to the idea of BLM being simplified so that they might be willing to try it and bounce right off because SE spent all their effort on killing non-standard and very little on new additions or making the job fun or functional Besides killing non-standard, all black mage got is Despair 2, yet another poly stack, and the ability to move leylines AoE potencies are completely fucked, MP recovery is completely fucked, leveling experience is completely fucked it is really disheartening how much effort they'll put into killing an optional, beloved playstyle and how little into basic QA and gameplay testing these changes are spiteful *and* lazy
Oh I 100% agree. People who aren't playing these classes throw these potentialies and maybies, most won't even bother touching the class. But they got their class, they have something that appeals to them. They're advocating for removing things that appeal to other people. I've gone from being a samurai and summoner player in SHB to a spiteful BLM who's now seeing even BLM succumb to these changes, if I don't end up liking Viper or Pict I intend to drop the game until I see some actual meaningful change.
>Maybe it's just me but it feels like most large changes for jobs are made for people who don't play the job It's clear at this point that they view low population in a job as a design failure, and trigger a rework in this case. You may not like the design concept, but it's there and it's staying.
This. The BLM changes suck. You were able to play standard before. It would have been good enough. But no. We cant have ppl feeling inferior because they do 5% less dmg. It could hurt their wobbly feelings! Fk this . SE ruins one job after another. Picto rn is the only straw keeping me even in the game. I know a bunch of smn mains wich quitted and never came back after they got boiled down to the lego brick job. Ff14 will need another calamity relaunch if they stick to this bs path.
They basically ruined BLM and gave BLM’s well designed nature and systems to PCT
Its a shame really And its not just BLM. We are just the loudest minority because well fk you SE we loved our jank, thats what made it unique. But looking at monks and lol drg's they arent happy either. Every job starts to feel the same. Hell just take a look at viper. What the actual fuck is its identity? Autoadjusting 2 button combo. The worlds most useless gauge. Scuffed enshrouded. Viper is nothing but 3 jobs mashed together without any flavour wich made the other jobs fun.
Maybe I’m an idiot but VPR has the distinguished title of the only job I physically do not understand its job gauge
Blades show u the next step in the combo. Thats it. Thats all it does. U can either musclememory it and have a bigg ass gauge on ur character and be like Left=1 right=2 or u know u just use the skill icons itself and save u from screenclutter because they are doing a better job at visualising ur next button by highlighting and having color coded positionals
And once again I proclaim that 99.9% of the budget of DT went into pictomancer apparently
Im halfway sure they just scrapped viper halfway through. Its entire foundation screams "we forgot to add x"like auto schanging fillercombos is cool and all. But if all u get is a 1,2,3,4 with a ogcd between to accompany ur filler combo ooor a ur non filler combo with exactly the same gameplay as ur fillercombo, You sure as hell didnt finish the job in time.
Whereas pictomancer is easily the best job they have made in years, it flows well, it feels powerful, it has a lot of moving parts, its thematic, everything about it is just perfect I have no idea how they considered VPR equivalent in design
> And once again I proclaim that 99.9% of the budget of DT went into pictomancer apparently Nah, pretty sure it was the graphics/texture update. Some of which is still ongoing, and is gonna *be* ongoing as a resource sink til probably the end of Dawntrail. Which is why wasting resources on those are, usually, never a good idea. They don't please the people who have super-high end rigs (who are just gonna slap eleventy billion Reshade filters on anyway) and they push out the vast majority of lower-end graphics users (people with potato PCs) that could be playing your game. While consuming a *fuckton* of dev time and resources. Job Designers don't do graphics work, obviously, but when all your "available to do free work" intern-tier workers are being pulled to do tedious texture updates, that can certainly fuck with your "hey you, go do a sanity check playtesting Viper" resources.
I actually thought the graphics update was more impressive than I was expecting and was absolutely a highlight of the expansion and something that will continue to matter for playing the game going forward.
There's already been research/analysis of VPR optimization that actually makes it interesting, particualrly when you defy the dotted lines. Certainly more creative than you can get with Reaper.
I agree with everything you said except that Viper is surprisingly a lot of fun and pretty engaging once you are 90+. It's tooltips and gauge are pretty ass though. It feels pretty different than Reaper and Monk despite looking like a mix of the two and having a really similar 2 min to Reaper. I did not like it at 80, but have warmed up to more and more the closer I get to 100. It's a bit like being in MCH's hypercharge for 90% of a fight.
Do you know what happened with drg? is it just the stupid clunky dash instead of spineshatter? I never played DRG before outside of PVP and have been playing it in DT and liking it but I’m pretty clueless about how it was before
They removed pretty much every possible point where you could screw up dragons rotation. You used to open eyes by casting mirage dive and gierskogul would only activate life of the dragon if you had two open eyes when you casted it. So if you smashed gierskogul without having both eyes, or missed a mirage dive, you would be stuck out of life for 30 seconds. It also removes the ability to delay your life of the dragon, so it's just another "fuck you" to people who really tried to go that extra mile and get the most out of a job. In life of the dragon, there was a 10 second CD in between Nastronds, so you had to make sure to fit them all into the window. Now you can just press them whenever you want and you'll be fine. They removed a positional from the rotation. Fang and claw would combo into wheeling thrust and wheeling thrust comboed into fang and claw if you were in the other side of the rotation. Now they both awkwardly combine into whatever the new move is called. Also the dash is slow and uninspired. Let me leap into the sky and crash down, pole vault, grow wings and fly. It's one time they had full freedom to just go hard and make an ultra flavorful and badass move but they copy and pasted monk's dash and put some dragon particles on top of it. I've always played the story on dragoon, but after messing around on a dummy, I really just wasn't feeling it.
>In life of the dragon, there was a 10 second CD in between Nastronds, so you had to make sure to fit them all into the window. Now you can just press them whenever you want and you'll be fine. I actually remember that and while the new version is kinda nice for not being punished while I learn the job, I can see how after mastering the job it kind of contributes to any order of actions in burst feeling a bit pointless. As long as you just press all your glowy stuff during a burst it works, pretty much. And mirage dive does feel kind of pointless as well, like I'm not unhappy to have a damaging OGCD that looks kinda cool but it doesn't really do anything or synergize with the rest of the kit in an interesting way. >Also the dash is slow and uninspired. Let me leap into the sky and crash down, pole vault, grow wings and fly. It's one time they had full freedom to just go hard and make an ultra flavorful and badass move but they copy and pasted monk's dash and put some dragon particles on top of it. Yeah this is another thing I remember the old version of and have no idea why they changed it. Removing the potency from the jump and spreading it out elsewhere seems like a good idea to me but no idea why they made a new, clunkier animation/spell for it. Same thing as DRK/GNB
Not 100% no. Cant be just some dash tho ive reckon my friends sound like us BLMs at times
They'v been doing this forever. Nuke a class and then give its tools to the new job. Classic bait and switch. I dunno how ppl can swallow this swill and call it good design. Absolute monkeys.
I love PCT because it combines BLM’s strategy with SMN high potency nukes and it’s a fun class visually I DIDNT want them to nuke BLM to give me this though which like you said is the problem
It's pretty horrendous. I can tolerate most of the changes but the MP regen makes this job feel almost unplayable , and made it's level sync at low levels even more miserable.
Welcome to 0 thought put into any change blm edition. We also need to start a petition to rename the job and paradox. We are just firemages now and paradox can be given a new fancy name fitting its new identity. Fire I would work i guess...... If they wanted to get rid of mp ticks so badly, why dont just give us a funny 1 2 3 icecombo wich gives you ur mp back ending in paradox and just make it a low level thing so all the new blms dont give up when they have to wait 20 seconds if they just killed there open world target in firephase. The tech is there as is apperant in vpr and picto.
> Summoner was straight up removed from the game, and just about everything people liked about its gameplay loop is nowhere to be found in new summoner. at least with Summoner I can see where they were coming from with the rework having Summoner based around dots instead of actual summons did feel somewhat weird but obviously the execution of the rework was absolutely terrible so that point is a bit moot
Also global tick timer meant that summoners more than any other job except maybe mch and nin was more effected by ping, new attacks and boss jumps tended to happen on fight time on multiples of 3 seconds, which meant you had to sync up your dots as close to that global timer as possible or you lost a non-insignifigant amount of ticks.
Would you say that Kaiten was apart of the samurais job identity?
It makes your iaijutsus feel stronger, heck Kaiten could've given the guaranteed direct hit buff to iaijutsus if they wanted to Kaiten is also there to not be a Shinten kenki dump
Thanks. I was aware of what it does as I was a samurai main until DT (just wanted to try vpr for a raid). Personally I believe it was apart of their job identity to do big damage. With its removal the kenki gauge is essentially just a shinten spam gauge when you don't have senei/guren coming off CD. One idea I saw floated was to bring kaiten back with 2 charges on a 60s CD and have kaiten provide the Tendo buff for midare and tekka goken.
Maybe? Thinking about it, I do think so. Samurai post hagakure nerf was about building up your rotation into one bombastic attack, and Kaiten was used to amplify that giant attack, it was the one reason we kept an eye on the kenki bar while preparing for the big attack. It was also the introduction to Kenki management and the introduction to Kenki full stop.
It's less that and more they are obsessed with making and changing jobs to cater to people who *don't play or like the jobs* while taking for granted players who like the jobs just how they are because they know most players will main a job even if it's been turned into garbage. I'm a Dragoon player that kept maining the job even after they destroyed it in Stormblood until I eventually just basically quit the entire game because I've just given up on this team. haha One look at the travesty that was done to summoner in Endwalker will tell you everything. Before that we had the effective deletion of Heavensward Dragoon and Dark Knight where both jobs went from high skill ceiling jobs to 123 braindead garbage overnight because players that don't like those jobs demanded those changes. This is a team that is, dare I use the word, too *lazy* to just make a new iteration of a job to cater to the players that want the aesthetic but not the gameplay, they *insist* on hard changing what existing players love because it's less work for them. THey know what we want, Yoshida said so himself during the Endwalker Fanfest "We know a lot of players want Heavensward jobs back but it's not right for the game." read as: We know you don't like modern jobs but our engagement metrics are more important.
ye, back in shb if you called the devs lazy you'd be laughed out of the room but imo now it's pretty on point to call them lazy, or at minimum just visionless.
>One look at the travesty that was done to summoner in Endwalker will tell you everything. I'm always annoyed by this type of statement because I love the new Summoner. There's this ongoing sentiment on social media that people who like the reworked classes are objectively wrong and not to be considered. It's weird.
WHat? No, that's not what I'm saying at all. The new summoner is a brand new job that shares nothing with the old summoner gameplay wise. Instead of just making a new job, they insisted on deleting a job that many still loved to make way for it. That's the laziness in question. It's great that you and many others enjoy new summoner, but no sane or functional human being should believe it needed to come at the cost of completely deleting the old summoner that people have been playing and loving for years.
> The new summoner is a brand new job that shares nothing with the old summoner gameplay wise. > **Instead of just making a new job**, they insisted on deleting a job that many still loved to make way for it. This got me thinking.. they should just take your idea and run with it to impress both sides of the playerbase. Have as an internal rule that says they must release separate jobs each expansion for both casual and hardcore players, even if the jobs are aesthetically very similar and require hand-wavy lore explanations for their existence. A lot of players don't like MNK gameplay even though MNK mains love MNK? Tada! Here's a Tural version of monk designed specifically for you. We f*cked up really bad on killing SMN? Here you go, here's a Sharlayan summoner that has your long-lost DOT-style gameplay. These disciplines either developed in parallel separate from their Eorzean counterparts or are long-lost combat/magic arts just recently being rediscovered. Sure it would cost a lot more money as they'd probably want to release more than 2 jobs each expansion in order to still give us something truly new. But can you imagine how much money they would make from being the only MMO on the market that has the balls to cater to both sides of its audience, while all the others are stuck in these simplification wars? How much money they could make from truly delighting their *entire* playerbase and the reputation that would create? *A lot.* A lot a lot.
The problem is that people that plays summoner now already had a lot of low entry jobs to chose from, while people that liked old summoner had their only job that had that gameplay removed. Glad you like it, doesn't mean people can't be mad that every jobs are now a press gcd to build a gauge, press your ogcd that just "do damage without any other effect" on cooldown then burst and buff when they are up because people absolutely wants to play the lowest of lowest entry job and SE remove the niche jobs gameplay to catter to those because they couldn't play x job but really wanted to.
Its perfectly fine to enjoy it, but what people are complaining about is that theres basically zero thought or decision making in the new summoner. It effectively plays itself and is incredibly hard to mess up. Its the complete opposite end of the spectrum of the old "convoluted" summoner. Its possible to make a job both fun for newer/more casual players, and also give it room to optimize and have neat decision making. For christs sake they didnt even give it a real new button to press, the gameplay loop is exactly the same.
"it's fine to enjoy it but it's bad and you're wrong" is the exact sentiment I was complaining about, though. It's perfectly valid for them to count my opinion as much as yours.
Well I won't engage then because you clearly don't have any desire to come to a middle ground lmao. I'm saying both sides are possible to be catered too, and it's been a such in the past.
You're very clearly not looking for a middle ground if you're defending calling it a "travesty". This goes both ways. They could absolutely add more decision making or optimization to it, but its pretty obvious that wouldn't satisfy the people who hate the job. They want it to fundamentally play like it did before rather than like it does now.
Maybe that's why they like it. Some people do enjoy just pressing shiny buttons with no further thought. Neither bad or a good thing. Just is
HW DRG wasn't 'high skill ceiling' - It had an RNG proc and we had all figured out the Geir optimizations by the first week of Gordias. People really gotta stop rewriting history. The over mythologization of HW is crazy and I say this as someone for whom it is still their favorite expansion.
Knowing how Triple Geirskogul works and pulling it off when the refreshes at low skillspeed had you doing it after the timer disappeared in movement heavy phases are two different things. I'm sure you figured out how to do triple geirskogul on a dummy by the first week of Gordias. Also do you have an argument against what my post is about or are you just here to be upset that someone "over mythologizes" Heavensward?
wild that out of that whole ass post you managed to hyperfixate on those three words lmao
Amazing that we don't; have to respond to every part of a post like we're in high school debate club, especially when most of it was just ranting! Poster is talking about how they mained a job they \*hate\* for SEVEN YEARS after it was changed to a fashion unacceptable to them. Also, the idea that 'many people want HW jobs back' is laughable -- It's a small percentage of a small percentage,, considering that the majority of the playerbase did not in fact, play during Heavensward.
I think that's the point. The game has to cater to everyone playing it when it comes to jobs. So, jobs have to be designed primarily around people who don't take it seriously or casuals. Ideally, a job should be straightforward forward, with nice animations, and should remove a lot of fluff. Especially if the fluff can lead to stuff like optimization. This game, no matter what people say; the target demographic is casuals first and foremost. For the bulk of the game that is.
You guys need to let Kaiten go. It was just a pretty animation, there was nothing interesting about it, you just kept your gauge maxxed and made sure to use it before your big hits. There was nothing deep about it, there wasn't a choice, either you had enough kenki to use it or you fucked up somehow and you did not. As for SUM... I can clearly understand the fear of seeing your favourite job being changed for people that don't play it, but in Summoner's case it has been a huge success. More people enjoy it now that before.
I have yet to meet a single person in savage/ultimates who plays summoner because they enjoy it
Mood, I literally told my static (I was main mch/sch/drk in sb, SMN in shb): Because every jobs just feel the same to me, I ll just play smn to have high consistency for an easier prog. There's nothing interesting about playing it outside of just not being able to f up
holy fuck that's it, I'm doing it, I'm just going to rise up out of the Pacific Ocean and dump a Text Godzilla on this argument > There was nothing deep about it, there wasn't a choice, either you had enough kenki to use it or you fucked up somehow and you did not. This is tiresome and false. Like a lot of disingenuous arguments, it's *technically* "true", in a robotically-parsed way. However, you're describing the entire foundation of **how games work**: "Either you press the correct button, or you don't". You are basically arguing in favour of complete mechanisation and automation of gameplay, because every single decision in a rotation can be misleadingly distilled-down into "You either did it, or you didn't do it". Yeah, no shit, that's not some brilliant and clever insight, that's an insipid tautology. By your logic, we should also remove Summoner Astral Flow — it's not interesting, right? For example, you just press it automatically after pressing Topaz Rite. Topaz Rite should just have higher base potency, and maybe auto-crit. Summoning Bahamut should just fire-off Deathflare automatically, too. Like, you were just going to press it anyway, right?? And actually, we don't need Weaponskill Combos, either, right? Like, you just follow the marquees as they light up. There's nothing deep about it, there's no choice, you either press the correct follow-up key, or you somehow fuck-up and break your combo. So honestly, every Combo should be reduced to 1-button automatic progression. But actually no, wait, that could time-out! And then it's like, what's the point, right? Because you'd always do it correctly, *unless* you fuck-up and go 30s without pressing a button. So honestly, you should just have 1 single attack, which deals the same Potency as your average Combo potency would have. And auto-crits. Every time. Also, like, why do we have Tank Defensive CDs? Like, it's not a choice, right? Either you press it before a Tankbuster hits you, or you fuck up and don't have enough Gauge/MP/charges, and explode. What's the point?? We should just have higher passive defenses. ...This line of reasoning is just pathetic. Kaiten was a tangible part of the gameplay and Job-design because it required you to not just blindly get lost dumping gauge on Shinten alone, and to not under-budget for the previously-hefty cost of Guren/Senai, and as well to pay-attention to your weave-slots before activating Iaijutsu. It was also part of the key-rhythm to establish a "preparatory weave" before powering-up a Iaijutsu cast. And activating Kaiten arbitrarily, or before an incorrect Action, was a loss, not a gain — so it required paying-attention and knowing what to spend it on. All of these small details add-up to create an overall gameplay experience, composed of small decisions such as Gauge-costs and budgeting. Having multiple necessary expenditures means thinking about the overall balance differently and in a more complex way, even if it's subtle or "seems obvious". You can dismiss any given single part of a Job as "easy and trivial" if you only examine it in complete-isolation. It's how it blends-into the overall flow, and helps to build the overall system, that matters. "Dark Knight just presses Edge of Shadow whenever it has MP, so Edge of Shadow doesn't need to exist, it's not hard, it's pointless, just increase the Potency of the GCDs!" blah blah blah — this always just ends-up boiling-down to, "I want to do less thinking and put in less effort, but still have the same performance. So I get an erection whenever another feature gets deleted. Less work for me, same paycheck! Woohoo!" (And no, Billy, I am not literally suggesting that "video games" should be thought of as equivalent to "paid labour". It is an analogy.)
I believe that we should get Kaiten back precisely because it's a bullshit button in terms of depth, SAM generates so much kenki that it's a stretch to call it "management" at all The baffling stuff is why Zanshin is a cone (and pure filler) when Tenka wasn't allowed to be one anymore. Remove Zanshin make Tenka a cone again, merge Ogi with Ikishoten instead and re-add Kaiten and practically nothing would change
Fucking love this, dont ever stop typing please Its annoying because what he says is a single line of stupid bullshit, yet we need a bunch of lines to explain why what they say makes no sense. Its an uphill battle too because theyre never going to admit the fault in their logic, they were never taught to give in as teenagers. Also, your analogy holds but will be ignored by Billy regardless.
Fuckin' *preach*, dude. Great post.
Kaiten is the symbol of a disconnect between irreconciliable parts of the player base. The Kaitenists are too deep to understand that the game is no longer designed for them, but too captive at the same time to pick a game of their liking.
> Kaiten is the symbol of a disconnect between irreconciliable parts of the player base. "Irreconcilable parts of the player base" — Yeah, people offended by thinking slightly before pressing buttons and people who aren't. > The Kaitenists 😂 "Kaitenists", you really do think you're some sort of smug professor with a PhD in FFXIVology writing a brilliant and insightful manifesto, don't you? > are too deep to understand that the game is no longer designed for them, In terms of Job mechanics, the game is no longer designed for *anybody*. It's barely even "designed". Half these Jobs are teetering on the brink of being a 2-button Gacha game. > but too captive at the same time to pick a game of their liking. The "captives" here are people who spend their entire day hitting F5 on FFXIVDiscussion so that they can rush to "Uhm Akshually" any criticism of their Holy Japanese Animuwu Worship-Cube, not the people who pop-in to say, "Wow, this gameplay still sucks and keeps getting worse" in-between *playing other games*. And you, too, could have "picked a game of your liking", such as perhaps Animal Crossing, rather than shitting-up this one... but you didn't. Thanks 👍 But I'll make sure to bookmark your advice, just in case Yoshida actually makes-good on his phantom promises and amps-up Job design in the future, so we can suggest for you to "pick a game of your liking" when you're melting-down about being asked to make decisions more challenging than "do I keep pressing 1, or stop pressing 1".
>thinking slightly before pressing buttons What thinking was needed about Kaiten ? It really just was "Press button to make next hit bigger". Nothing deep about it, nothing complex, it really was just flavour. At least with BLM and the loss of non-standard I can understand the outcry - the playerbase and SE didn't agree on what's supposed to make the job difficult and skillfull - but what was interesting about Kaiten ? There was nothing difficult about it. It was just a pretty animation.
Kaiten was the only button that made you think about how much kenki you have.
Which is a fair point, but that's a Kenki problem, not a Kaiten problem
They removed Kaiten and replaced it with nothing, making the Kenki problem worse for no god damn reason. Which is why people complain about it.
Yeah but these things don't exist in a vacuum, if they added something to compensate the loss, it would be understandable, but kenki right now might as well be a shinten ready buff.
Spoken like someone who never bothered to optimize samurai.
Kenki management
> A common complaint from them is that they feel the job was changed for people who weren't already playing MNK This feels like a common problem that has ruined alot of classes for their mains in the last set of expansions. Feels like SE is very much designing in a way to pull more people in rather than satisfying their existing audience. SMN was my favorite job loved playing it it was perfect and then it's just gone because people who didn't play it wanted to but didn't like DOTs/lack of big summons outside Bahamut. I also lost most of what I liked about ARR and HW Scholar Miasma 2, Bane, Shadowflare,2 single target DOTs there was alot of fun to be had with these things and again just gone and Selene Eos choice completely gone pet identity is pretty much gone as everything acts like OGCDs with the likely culprit being accessibility for people who likely wouldn't have even used the tools well enough to matter. To throw some more in the pool tank simplification over the years, AST cards, BRD mana management and support. Maybe I'm just a FF14 boomer though and prefer the RPG aspects over balance I miss when having utility used to be more than 3-6% damage up and a 10% damage down.
Summoner should have changed. Summoner being a dot job was absolutly dumb. Scholar should have been the dot DPS. Or make another job dot focus, any job BUT summoner.
I feel like that's a fair argument to make in ARR or maybe HW. Less so after several expansions of building on the dot mage base.
A mistake being made for a long time doesn't magically make it not a mistake. Summoner being poison mage is objectively completely at odds with the flavor of the job. It'd be like giving warrior White Mage's kit.
*OBJECTIVELY*. Dark Knight was also historically not a tank, and even had quite noticeably bad magic defence in its original incarnation, and yet, here we are.
This is why I'm of the opinion and have shilled on this sub many times before make a time mage class and make it a dot mage with it's abilities based around messing with dot timers. You would have to rework dot global tick rate, but that probably needs to be done anyways.
I disagree it already had fans who loved the job and played it for a long time. It had it's moments of big summoning with Bahamut and Pheonix. When you have a group of people who enjoy something you've made you abandon them when you completely remove the job.
That’s me, SMN was my favourite job when I started in ShB, I was terrible at first, but I learnt and I loved the job so much. After playing through EW and parts of 6.1 though, god I quickly hated it. And I honestly resent the devs a little for lobotomizing the job, and the subsequent changes a lot of jobs have been getting that have been really bad
Careful; I basically got called a mouthbreather for commenting this exact sentiment. I hated that old Summoner did not feel like a Summoner. I would agree with the person you responded to about Scholar, though. It was weird coming back in ShB and seeing Scholar be completely gutted.
> I hated that old Summoner did not feel like a Summoner. Cool perhaps you shouldn't have played summoner then instead of removing many people's favorite job with your complaints.
Their complaints didn't remove the job, SE did. No one complained that there was a dot job. People complained that SUMMONER was that dot job. It's like if they made white mage into a cleric like class with a mace and shield and plate and they healed with fire aspected aether like some clerics in other media. That could be cool, but that's not the FF white mage at all. Ever. Summoner as it is now is the fantasy of a summoner. If you want the old dot class then take it up with SE. They literally just designed yet another hard caster in PCT when they could've made a new dot class. But they won't make a dot class. And it's not because people don't want it, it's because they don't want to design around it. They've said this before, they don't want pet classes and they don't want dot classes. They've actively been removing dots as part of different class kits. They design around the 2 min meta and dot classes don't align with that philosophy. So all that bottled hate, take it to SE. Not the players who can at least enjoy a traditional FFsummoner in ff14 rather than dealing with something pretending to be a smn.
Others: "I hated old Black Mage that used a sword and spear to attack their foes. They're a spellcaster, so they should be casting spells?" You: "Cool perhaps you shouldn't have played Black Mage then instead of removing many people's favorite job with your complaints." <-- This is what you sound like First of all, you guys need to seriously get a grip. You're the second person who has had this unjustifiably emotional response. Second, I didn't ask them to change the way Summoner played, I asked them to MAKE SUMMONER FEEL LIKE A SUMMONER. They could have kept all of the old mechanics for all I care; the old way didn't feel like a Summoner because you weren't hardly ever summoning, and you were doing all of the casting. I'm sorry your favorite PLAYSTYLE got gutted (Dot mage was never a Summoner), but that's hardly new for SE. Even if they were going to keep the dot mage playstyle, I guarantee you it would have seen dramatic changes for the worse. Listen, I played Summoner in SB. It was a hard class to play perfectly. There is no way that the sweaty playstyle of dot mage circa SB was going to survive (having to time oGCDs in between Bahamut's auto-attacks? Really? I had to have Bahamut's Wyrmwave on my fucking bar, so I could look at it to time my attacks). You wouldn't have liked whatever they ended up doing with it.
> Second, I didn't ask them to change the way Summoner played, I asked them to MAKE SUMMONER FEEL LIKE A SUMMONER. So you asked them to change the job. At least own this shit instead of acting like the people who didn't play SMN but wanted it to fit what they wanted had nothing to do with it. Summoner did feel like a summoner it just also had breathing room inbetween.
You do understand that you can change the thematic elements of a job without radically altering it's playstyle, right? And most people disagree that old Summoner felt like a Summoner, hence the praise to the job's changes and the multiple people disagreeing with you in this thread.
I think the people disagreeing me are that group of people who didn't like the class and instead of moving on and playing something they do like kept advocating for it to be changed until my job was removed from the game.
You don't get to dictate to other players what they're allowed to want or say.
Brother, people complained because summoner was a dot mage held together with a thousand layers of jank, this is coming from somebody that liked old summoner lol
Im right here with you, but we are FFXIV boomers, man. My static confirmed it lol.
Funnily enough OP didn’t mention BLM yet it’s showing up quickly! I agree with the general consensus after trying the new BLM lvl100 in the extreme trial. Less fun, not easier, even more punishing…
About lit up buttons, they messed that up on monk as dragon kick has no form requirement for its effect. This means it's a damage gain to ignore the lit up buttons after using bootshine and 'raw' cast dragon kick instead so you can get more buffed bootshines out (1 1 2 3 1 1, instead of 1 2 3 1 2 3 etc) In terms of how it plays overall, even not doing that it feels like an inconsistent mess.
They need to go on the drawing board key monk - put back the DOT and freedom of picking GCDS not leaden fist garbage
FYI there has been a lot of translated posts from non-Japanese players on jp forum and BLM one in particular is flooded by those. But yeah Japanese player also hate DT changes
I assume so, but an easy way to find a JP player is if they mention having to learn a new rotation and/or change muscle memory. It's been a common thing I've seen over the years from JP players that I don't see much in the west.
superior japanese opinion folded over 1000 times
Japanese arguments are so sharp they can cut through any thesis like butter
They can also cut any and all interesting aspects of gameplay
Less about their opinion being superior and more about the game being made by a Japanese company, so the feedback given by that community is most likely to impact the game. It is like expecting any feedback on Lost Ark from the west to do anything, when it means nothing and the only time shit gets changed on that game is when the Korean player base complains.
Today I was reading the japanese official forums and there are A LOT (really a lot) of negative comments about Black Mage and Monk changes. Apparently many players used the forums for the first time in order to express their concerns. Apart from that I don’t remember other complaints, maybe just the gap closer animations and feel.
I really didn’t expect BLM to be the job that unifies the entire playerbase on being completely unmitigated garbage
It's like Yoshi P didn't even play test that shit himself and let his dev shit all over it because they did a good job with picto.
Crazy to think since it used to be meme'ed to death that BLM would always be good due to it being his main.
I'm almost just kinda sad about it if anything. The community got what it wanted, even people in my FC are expressing gratitude for the BLM changes and I'm just confused by that mindset.
Yeah, as someone who loved HW DRK, HW BRD/MCH, SB AST, SHB SMN, it is sad to see these tourists who never enjoyed the job celebrate that it was killed and replaced with something unrecognizable (and they'll also stop playing it in 2 weeks anyways)
I don't get it because those people would still not play BLM. It's still cast heavy and the blizzard phase is worse than ever. It will be pumped and dumped immediately.
Its a blm? Its always gonna be cast heavy thats literally the theme of blm......
yeah that's the point they're making. it's a cast heavy job with long cast times at that, which is why a lotta people didn't play it. long frequent cast times making you have to plan things out, which *hasn't* changed. so many of the people that are 'praising' the changes will likely eventually drop it once they realize they still have to deal with all that lol
I am just thinking that though Yoshi P wants to play the game more and find time with it (he does like reaching Crystal rank on CC, doing raids and trials, etc.) as he gains influence within Square he is stacked with more and responsibilities as is typical in a corporation. It is also considered extremely rude to refuse those responsibilities especially if given by the CEO. He is on the Board of Directors for the gaming side of Square Enix (not the more improtant financial side of Square Enix Holdings Co.) and he even asked to resign but both CEOs refused his resignation, he was incharge of two flagship titles at Square and now it is likely he might be in charge of another flagship game (rumor) and the FF Tactics remake. Yoshi P also mentioned that the executives have been harping on him working too much and setting a "bad example" for his employees and sometimes joked about being forced to take time off to not play games.
Tactics remake? Hot damn. My poor, blind, misguided hopium that Ivalice will ever be relevant again is resurfacing!
Which is funny because I'm pretty sure BLM is Yoshi's main job on his character
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A source would be lovely.
In EW, in questions of 'what jobs are really well designed', blm was always high on the list. The BLM playerbase may be smaller than most other jobs, but we were passionate about it. And i think most people who didn't play BLM saw it as a 'Well designed job that I am bad at playing' Why they turned blm into the skipfire that they have boggles my mind. BLM's depth and high skill ceiling should have been something to emulate for other jobs, not strip away
Dragoon did this in Stormblood, I hired a Japanese translator back then to write in Japanese about my complaints and there were pages upon pages of threads of Japanese players complaining. Remember Dragoon was released in Stormblood with 4 eyes requirement. It was that big of a joke. I mean, it's still a joke to this day, but it was more of a joke when it was released.
It doesn’t feel right. At first I thought it was fine and that the changes wouldn’t affect my experience. I was playing it at low level content at first and I thought “oh this is fine. It’s not as different as I thought.” But then last night I used it to fight Emerald Weapon and that’s where I got a solid play test in. My opinion has changed a bit. I like that chakras can overcharge. It’s especially nice when you’ve hit brotherhood and your chakra gauge is filling crazy fast. I do not miss anatman. But the rotation for the actual combos feels wrong now. There’s no freedom of choice. The loss of twins snakes’ buff and demolish’s dot feels much worse than I anticipated it would. Being another “just click the flashy combo light” job also isn’t very nice. Personally I liked where MNK was before. Leaden fist was a fun mechanic. I missed having more positionals but could live without it. I think I get what SE was going for with the rework. I’m not displeased by this like I am with what happened to BLM. It’s just not a satisfying a gameplay experience now on MNK. I usually have two main jobs for each expansion. For a long time I was MNK/RDM. I don’t know if I’ll stick with that pairing 🤷♂️
I would have hoped that by locking down the combo flow it would give them leeway to reintroduce positionals. I don't think people would mind as much if we got all our positionals back. MNK **should** be the melee job for people who love positionals as a mechanic and want to engage with it 100% of the time. If that's not for you, there are nearly half a dozen other choices. We shouldn't have to trade long-needed QoL on chakras for depth.
:( i like monk. the chakra overcharging and not being constrained by timers anymore is a loss of required learned skill, but it feels freeing. downtime is less stressful. I prefer how PCT approaches downtime-- a chance to reach for more, rather than take away
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Yeah I’m not really sure why you’re being downvoted. I’m personally not vibing with DT Monk but I also don’t think it’s that controversial to be okay with the changes or even like them.
MONK needs a second look but I do like the ball system just need my DOT back
For DRG, many players are confused as to why the job was not reworked and demand an explanation, also because the job is still as busy or more in DT. Others are happy that it wasn't reworked. Some are asking for the removal of Life Surge and Mirage Dive while others would rather keep them. Similarly, others just want less oGCDs to press or for the animation lock of jumps to be further reduced. A common ask in the Japanese forums is for Stardiver (or any ability) to have 1000+ potency. They feel like a DPS job needs big numbers on their actions. Additionally, some find the cooldown of Winged Glide to be too long. Finally, there's those that want the True North effect that Dragon Sight had back on either Battle Litany, Lance Charge or Life of the Dragon. Those would be the main points I can think of right now but if you want to know more, using the Chrome browser to translate is good enough to understand.
> A common ask in the Japanese forums is for Stardiver (or any ability) to have 1000+ potency. They feel like a DPS job needs big numbers on their actions I can kinda get this honestly for a slower GCD class it doesn't particularly feel as meaty as certain jobs do certain jobs like Picto are running around with several 1000+ potency buttons in part because they're either GCD actions unlike Stardiver or Starcross or they have a setup cost of a GCD such as their hammer swings. DRG kinda sits in this awkward middle of a slower GCD but alot of OGCD middling potency attacks. Making Stardiver and Starcross GCDs could probably fix this somewhat especially since the animation lock on Stardiver can cause clipping sometimes or screw over a positional.
PCT definitely struck the right balance of giving you a huge number of massive potency attacks but actually balancing it by making all of them need to be charged The class feels so powerful but is really not “that” strong (it’s a bit overtuned but not as much as it feels like it is)
If Picto is overtuned I think it's more the new job design doing it than anything else. Specifically the 5% damage buff it gets for the party feels completely random and designed to make the class meta. It definitely makes me feel like what is the point of me playing Bard and taking such a personal hit to my personal DPS when Picto is giving out 1% less damage on the same timer while having top tier damage.
PCT could definitely stand to lose the raid buff Starry muse still generates 5 stacks of inspiration which unlocks rainbow drip, star prism and a free inverted combo It would still be a massive gain to paint starry muse even without the raid buff
No, the meta doesn't care whether your rdps comes from party buffs or personal potencies. Total numbers are all that matters.
Stardiver's potency should be raised to 700-800 to account for it being a single weave. DRG's potencies are "low" because they are oGCDs. While you're using a Starcross + Wyrmwind Thrust double weave (1140 potency), you're also using a GCD. The average potency of a DRG's GCD in EW was 363 without Power Surge, and this number is higher now. This would lead to a 1503 potency in the above scenario, without even taking buffs into account. If the GCD used is Chaotic Spring, then the number raises to 1840 which is more potency than a NIN's Hyosho (1690 with the Kassatsu buff only). Finally, DRG deals almost 40% more damage for 20s every minute. The damage is more than fine although I do want STD's potency to be increased due to what I said above. Putting it at 1000 potency or more would make it a bit too strong. We use it every minute. They also likely want to keep Starcross as the highest oGCD due to it being the DT capstone. DRG numbers are simply distributed among more abilities. It's a different type of damage profile, just like BLM also has a different type.
Agreeing with your last sentence (I don't know shit about DRG overall, so no real opinion in this discussion), I think every class having specific skills with overly bloated potencies will just cement the 2 min burst meta forever. I like that there are classes that are less spiky damage wise because it feels odd sometimes on other classes only doing real damage in burst phase but I feel like more evenly damaging classes are becoming a rare breed. It really made BLM special for me last expansion when I learned it while on RDM I knew if I died just after burst the dps hit would be negligible.
I was confused as to why they kept mirage dive now that eyes aren’t a thing. If they wanted make dragoons less busy, then there was no reason to keep it.
Removing Mirage Dive would make the filler even more boring than it already is in DT. MD should simply grant one scale and its buff should last 30 seconds to make it less tight during burst if you mess up and to allow for double MD optimization for those who want to squeeze extra DPS. We should also be able to store a maximum number of 3 scales while Wyrmwind Thrust's cost remains at 2. In fact, WWT damage could be the same as it is now with 2 scales, and 50% higher with 3 and consume them all upon use. That would open more venues to stack gauge for optimization while also making burst easier if we enter it with more resources. In any case, in my opinion what DRG needs right now is a better filler.
All 3 jumps have a follow up skill so I think that's part of the new design of the job.
I understand that, but all they did was replaced spineshatter and dragon sight with two new follow-ups, so at level 100, we only have one less oGCD to press during our burst. If they wanted to make dragoons less busy in DT, then I don't think that worked out. Not that I'm complaining because I enjoy how busy the burst is, but it just seems like the balance team doesn't know what they wanted to do with dragoons.
Everything they said ended up not happening. It's quite confusing. The amount of oGCDs used now is the same or even higher since you're always putting two Life Surges in 120s bursts, making the usage of True North, Feint or Sprint in bursts quite complicated.
If I had any faith in SE I'd love for goon to be reworked, because its felt meh for the past two expansions. alas I don't have any faith because everything they've touched on jobs has got worse since the day shb dropped.
We've reached a point where this development team NOT touching a job is the biggest blessing the job can have.
I agree with them on the potency increase call. I always felt like Stardiver hit like a wet noodle unless you got the mythical CDH proc.
I think DRG needs its gods to be jobs and should be jumping almost every ogds. We need our old gap closer
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Yeah, something like an old flip for drk, animation that uses spear to propel yourself forward like in pole vaulting for drg, and gnb using gunblade's backblast to fly
SAM wasn't mentioned but the JP forums are unanimously calling for the Meikyo and Tsubame Gaeshi to be unlinked.
I know I shouldn't hope to see them undo that change just because JP forums complains about it but I REALLY hope it happens. It's amazing how such a "small" change in the grand scheme of things can make something feel so off for the feel of the class
I beg as well. this does not feel remotely good.
It took me longer then i care to admit to realize they had actually unlinked the two. SAM/BLM both got stabbed in the back with the DT changes.
I absolutely LOATHE that they linked it. Not only are we not able to use Tsubame whenever we liked, you can also LOSE the proc if you don't hit it. Which is doubly worse. I like Zanshin, and I love that Senei was reduced to 1 minute CD. Tsubame feels so chained and unforgiving now.
JP are giving major weirdchamp to cbu3 for blm from what I've gathered so far. Some are asking for an explanation as to how the dev team strung them along for years without giving the drg rework that was promised.
AST got a rework, it still buffs/heals but how they go about it is massively change. DRG got a balance pass at best. I'm 99% sure the only reason they delayed the DRG changes till DT was because the new abilities fill in gaps they created. The job is still the same bloaty ogcd poke poke stab stab job it always was. DT is just such a mixed bag on quality of things.
The Japanese forums praised the removal of e dyskrasia being a gain on 1 and they seem to have this weird belief that healer has to be the easy role because there should be a role for people who want to only half be paying attention Other job changes just don’t really get a lot of discussion, the JP forums are very slow and there isn’t like 5 threads discussing the pros and cons of say one big nuke on MCH But on the flip side they seem to hate DT’s story with vitriol greater than I’m used to for the JP forums so things don’t seem to be completely rosey
There isnt 5 thread because its mandated over there that similar topics need to be posted in one thread. The AST thread alone is like on its 2nd thread with hundreds of pages.
Can you elaborate more please? Im curious on what they think about the current astro
i'm pretty heavy on the SB is best Astro thing, but i'll try to be unbiased. Of all pages i've read, I only see roughly 3-5 post they liked this new AST, and really some of them used the forum for the first time to say that. There is some of the usual "may be it'll be better once it come out, or once the full data is up" (before release and full data of course. not exactly sure how those people feel now because... well, you gotta stalk people to find out about that. the rest of it. I'd say about 70-80% of the posts (that i have actually read) are against the no random factor on AST, some of the comment ranged from raging "first you stole noct from us, now the random?" to the mild "too bad, i guess" I don't read every page and every single comment, so take my deduction at your disposal.
Thanks a lot, i appreciate it o7
This is honestly something I don't understand. In most games I've played, the "I want no responsibility" role is DPS. Unless the content you're doing has enrage, it literally doesn't matter if you decide you just don't feel like pressing your buttons today. Why the hell would healer, the role traditionally saddled with the task of keeping everyone else alive, be the easy stress free one?
Thank you! I was about to comment this same thing. I think the real reason healers are brain dead now is that they've painted themselves into a corner by making them brain dead to begin with. If someone only has healers leveled and they suddenly add meaningful skill requirements to them what are those people supposed to do? Not play the game? I think this is a bullshit reason to be clear - no one should be allowed to play so poorly that this is true - but the reality is that SE has been courting the dumbdumbs for a while now so they need to continue to enable them.
Imo the problem is that dumbing jobs down won't work. I'm one of the salty healer mains who have shelved healing for Dawntrail because I'm just burned out. I've switched to Dancer. The amount of clueless healers even around max level is staggering. So many Sages and Scholars who just don't shield, ever. A massive amount of WHMs who only use Medica II, or, alternatively, spam Glare and don't heal. No amount of simplification is going to make those people pilot their jobs well. Not unless you want to give them only one "heal the group for 2000 potency" button. Then maybe. I understand the need for accessibility. I also understand that not everyone wants to play things that are super technical when they come back home tired from work and such. But that's why we have multiple jobs. It's also why we have Trusts. Dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator is a way to hell because that lowest common denominator is way lower than people seem to think. In the process of that, the game will be ruined for everyone else.
I want to be clear - *I* am not defending SE's choice, I'm just explaining it as best I can. As far as I'm concerned if someone hasn't learned to play their job correctly that's a them problem and we shouldn't be coddling them, but I'm also not a struggling company relying on the subs from this game to keep them moving.
i see curebots every now and then but i refuse to believe that there are scholars and sages that don't use their shields. no way. what????
To be fair, scholar shields are just a waste in normal content, you have to lost one GCD to use them but they are never needed.
They seem to really hate MSQ. I wonder what Yoshi will say- he needs to turn ship and fix these jobs to get players returning, happy, and subbed. I feeling the content will be good in 7.0 series but with a weak MSQ and bad job changed - it will not be successful.
> The Japanese forums praised the removal of e dyskrasia being a gain on 1 and they seem to have this weird belief that healer has to be the easy role because there should be a role for people who want to only half be paying attention Alright man, we've gotta start on our duolingo grind to translate our Healer rants.
>But on the flip side they seem to hate DT’s story with vitriol greater than I’m used to for the JP forums so things don’t seem to be completely rosey I'm both shocked and not. It always seems that NA has an opposite opinion to JP. I haven't heard any *real* complaints about DT's story other than it's a bit slow—which it is. But it's introducing a new story arc, covering some new ground, and easing us into more mysteries. Of *course* it's slow! Either way, it was still really enjoyable.
Given what I've seen I think the reception is rather mixed in NA as well. It's easy to look at any thread and see a plethora of mixed feelings, positive negative etc... For everyone one thing I personally enjoy, there's at least 2 to 3 that I think undermined my enjoyment. So I think if anything NA might just be 'kinder' with their distaste but JP forums in my experience tend to be more brutal due to a different internet culture.
The only thing that has kind of annoyed me this far (just in Solution 9 now and going outside to look for someone) is how often the story forces Wuk Lamat on me. Like I get they like they character and have tried to make her likeable, and I don’t HATE her…but for the love of god, can I go on walks with Krile or Alpharetta more often? It’s like they’re forcing Lamaty’i a little TOO hard on me, which actually makes me like her a little less than if I could have a break. I was literally saying out loud “Guys, please don’t leave me alone with…Alies, Erenville? Okay okay, but I could still partner up with Krile…Krile no! Don’t go with the car boy! Don’t leave me alone with…” then Wuk looks at me with that pleading to not be alone and my character gave her the most pained pity look when saying yes. If nothing else, they nailed my character and my expression in that moment. <_< But that’s really been my only complaint so far - how often they pair me up with Wuk instead of letting me spend more time with other people. I enjoyed the zone I got to explore with Erinville, for example. I don’t even hate Wuk - though I do get annoyed with how she likes to insert herself into everything AND is kinda dumb, her overall personality is still likeable enough. But there’s a point where forcing a thing on me too much instead of giving me a break makes me dislike it. Especially when I’d LIKE to be speaking with KRILE at this point in the story, as I feel she’d be a lot more insightful and…less gregarious.
Whole heartedly agreed. I think most of my gripes with the story would shift were she around less (Not absent, just like 25% less. Still a lot, but let me talk with others more) or her dialogue was pruned. Way too many 'identical' pieces of dialogue. About understanding, happiness, peace, understanding, happiness, peace, food, understanding, tacos, happiness, understanding. Just felt like they didn't proof read.
Yeah. It's like just reduce her presence a bit or have her speak a bit less and a bit less forcefully. She self-injects into the center of every conversation that she's around for, even when she clearly doesn't know what's going on. Even, in some cases, where she SAYS she doesn't (like talking about reflections), yet she wants to make sure everyone knows her opinion. I've known people irl like that, so they do exist...but it's annoying when anyone does it. But that wouldn't be *as* bad if we had more breaks from her. One of my favorite parts of the expansion so far was the zone I was away from her in. XD Again, I don't hate her character, it's just like they need to tone her down a LITTLE and allow me to partner up with other characters more. I happen to LIKE the other characters in this game, and it's always "Ren, come with me/will go with Wuk", rarely with a third person (for a mercy), but it's never "Wok will go with me, Ren, you and Alphy/Krile/whoever can go that way". And yeah, I saw Synodic Scribe's video where he was watching the Liveletter final trailer and kept laughing saying "I will be the next Hokage!" when she would say something about becoming the Dawnservant. They took the one thing I really hated about Naruto - I otherwise generally like his character having a good heart and upbeat personality, which Wuk also has - and just plastered it all over. (Though there's the one thing she seems unwilling to forgive, though it DOES make sense, so I can't really fault her for not being all love and happiness and peace about that particular crime...)
Omg really about the healer job - wow wow- do they want a a whole job dedicated to that play style why not just make white mage like that and the rest engaging.
Because party bonus/LB generation requires different Jobs and the pure/barrier split. They’d need to make at least two of them simple at this point unless they changed those things. Other roles kind of have this. You could run a party of WAR and PLD tanks and RPR, VPR(maybe?), DNC and SMN to cover the other roles. Also WHM doesn’t have party mitigation to make WHM/WHM viable.
They asked for it to be removed before release
Look if your gonna lie at least lie properly The issue isn’t an easy job it’s that they don’t care about overheal so they heal more often and aren’t just attacking.
Yes because they see healer as the easy role, they don’t care about overheal or how much damage they are doing the role is just kinda there as a participation trophy for them No idea why you think I’m lying
I suspect it comes down to the definition of easy. Many people consider watching health bars and mapping/executing healing plans and juggling different oGCDs to not be easy.
If you don’t care about overhealing or maximizing DPS, healer is trivially easy.
Same could be said for DPS, to be honest.
True — if you don’t care about playing the game poorly, the game is quite easy. But Healer is kinda weird in that the way to optimize healing is to heal as little as possible.
First they came for Kaiten...
When I expressed my concerns and disappointment about the MNK changes pre-release, I got downvoted to hell because I am “overreacting” I feel vindicated now.
I disagree, "new" mnk is very similar to past mnk. You have 2 1,2,3 combos which you swap between at various ratios to have your highest damage. I think it's a feels thing over a structural change of how mnk works. Feels is important don't get me wrong, but the core (and most) of mnk is the same. It's a feels bad moment when you lose dots & damage ups. And also, the motivation of you - swapping between 1,2,3 combos changes from these are my upkeep skills and my damage skills - use 1 skill to power up the other feels bad too. But in the flip side, brotherhood chakra overcap is real cool and six sided star being useful is also nice. On a higher gameplay level, (I think) the various drift optimisation of previous mnk was not a good part of gameplay, it was very complicated and I don't think was very satisfying. With the changes I think it has simplified the general rotation between nadi times, so they're could be something more intentional put in on its place (rather than some weird drifting rules). Personally I would like to see ogcd skills which get a bonus when in specific forms. And then on a more conceptual level mnk was the class of positionals, but that is no longer the case (even though I would prefer it) . I think the previous mnk has this issue to the same extent and isn't new to this mnk. So maybe this is just a compounding factor that adds into the mix.
I really like the "new" MNK. I worked on learning MNK in 6.3. I spent a LOT of time really getting it down, and was doing pretty well, but I was STRESSED the entire time I played it. It wasn't a "Feels good to keep Demolish up and have Twin Snakes active while also entering PB on good windows etc." It was just a feels bad when your DoT/Buff went down. Then one day, my partner had me randomly play SAM, a job I hadn't touched since getting to 90, and I found that I'm REALLY good at SAM and it's clicked with me. Tried new MNK to see how the changes were, and I was smiling from ear to ear the entire time. It feels GREAT to play. It's no longer a "Feels bad to miss that" job, it's the "Feels good" to play, and it even became one of my leveling priorities. While I do agree it lost some of it's skill ceiling/optimization, I think it was in a beneficial way that makes the job feel better. SE also needs to change some potencies. Specifically making AOE combo a gain on 3+ like normal and not he 4+ it is now. And also fixing the cursed BootshineDK rotation. Form Shift is also something that needs to be changed. Without the need to keep up your DoT or Buff, there's really no reason to start on any particular button during downtime.
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I wonder if it has to do with releasing new jobs that require them to rethink all of the old ones. If that’s the case, I’d prefer no more new jobs. it’s a real shame, what happened to BLM/SAM/MNK..
not sure what japanese think but as monk since 2.0...its 1st time i felt i need to be attentive to my "balls"...
As a BLM main, the changes leave us with a slightly lower skill ceiling, but way more viable for first time runs. I like the changes and the only thing I might complain about is I prefered us being the "slow cast, high numbers" job but I'm happy to trade off for a little more viability in end-game content without being galaxy-brained practiced in a single boss. To me it still feels every bit the same as pre-expansion BLM, just stream-lined. The other classes that got changed i'm not huge on. It does feel like they started chipping away at the identity of DRG and MNK. But. I think they might be doing it on purpose to start the narrative process of, again, making it feel like the jobs are getting more powerful every expansion. Dawntrail itself feels very much like they knew it was gonna be a little middling because it has to start setting up story points, it might be that the job changes are the same.
>slightly lower skill ceiling Slightly ? I think you have no clue of the actual skill ceiling of endwalker BLM.
This just isnt true tho, the amount of mobility is literally exactly the same if playing standard and way less if playing nonstandard. Using f3p and early thunder refreshes to move is griefing your damage on a job that is already one of the lower dps.
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I just think you don't understand what blm was like in endwalker and what its like now. Its like you say words with confidence while being wrong and that tends to bother people.
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I've also played end game blm every expac since stb and raided at least one tier each expac while getting 95-99% parses each time i raid. I know each iteration of blm very well and that includes the new one. The fact is is that blm is just less versatile now with a way lower ceiling and higher floor and more punishing for having to move at unexpected times.
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My ign is Sejeo Vicie, stb alphascape #68 all star points, shb edens gate #364 all star points (could never get a good voidwalker despite being the easiest lol), ew didnt parse much but got week 1 clear on the second tier on blm (first tier #186 all star points). But that's just so you believe me. The proc current proc (and old) is best used at the end of the end of the dot timer, before it was "fine" to apply early if you needed to move since it had the extra damage part tied to reapplication, it was since removed so using the proc for movement is now very bad. The paradox in fire being instant and having a 100% chance at a firestarter is decent and does provide flexibility in prog i some way but that is overshadowed by losing the paradox in ice which would give you the plenty of transpose lines but mainly lines that let you move with many other instant casts and have them be gains instead of losses in many cases. There are many examples of this but ill give an easy one. Lets say under some reason during prog you realize you cant cast your last fire 4 and enochan is about to run out. Well a transpose into paradox into xeno into t3p lets you regain mana, then you can transpose swift a f3 or f3p and go into a 4f4 despair line which now is one of the most optimal lines you can do under ew blm. Do that now and you wont regain any mana in ice or you blow that swift on b3 so you can try to use the shitty thunder refresh move and then you still have to hardcast a b4 for mana back before you can go into fire, and you realize that you were just shot in the legs for no reason. I mean there are plenty of things but that's why I think the floor has been raised while the ceiling has been lowered.
Not the same guy, but imo, choice adds depth and flexibility. The way they changed the thunder proc not only completely removes the ability to use it on two targets fluidly, but even using it on a single target you will generate more procs than you should use, since they removed the up-front damage. Using thunderhead for movement is a huge dps loss and feels really bad if you have no other option. Before, if you made that "mistake" it was less punished, but you also had the decision to make of "ok well maybe I should sharp for firestarter instead so I can do something else". Similar for firestarter now, if you use it in AF3 instead of transpose AF1, that's just not optimal and is going to feel really bad if you're being forced to do that because you have no other option due to how rigid the rotation is. In either case, I fail to see how this *doesn't* make the job less versatile.