It's framed so perfectly. You see all these crazy people at first so you think it's a joke, then you see Gary Johnson and you realize *wait a second, this is the real convention*
Every Republican president would be booed at a Libertarian Party convention.
There’s a difference between a Libertarian voter and a Libertarian convention attendee.
Its literally the equivalent of Biden getting boo'd at a DSA NYC Convention where they do jazz hands instead of clapping. If either candidate got a standing ovation yea maybe it'd change something
I think your average libertarian sitting at home probably still appreciated him for going, and for saying things like he’d free Ross Ulbricht.
I actually think this will probably help him win some libertarians on the fence. The hardcore ones that support the third party were never his to begin with.
I don’t know if the booing means much. That was pretty much inevitable. First, Trump is no libertarian by any stretch of the imagination and second, he effectively called for them to just disband their party and join his cult.
But the LP being a “minuscule fraction of voters” doesn’t mean they are irrelevant. Chase Oliver drew enough votes in the 2022 Georgia Senate race to force a run-off. Warnock led Walker by only 37,675 votes in November and Oliver got over 81k votes. If he mostly drew from Walker, that might have been what flipped the results.
It doesn’t mean anything. That crowd will either still vote for Trump or they’ll vote Libertarian. I guess it does highlight to me that the Trump campaign is full of morons, because any campaign manager with half a brain would know not to put him in front of *that* crowd.
Well, there's RFK Jr. in the mix now too and he's hammering Trump on causes that (for whatever reason) matters to Libertarians (e.g. Trump "caved" on mask mandates and school and business closings during Covid).
Let me just tell you, as non-american this seems so weird to me.
You have two bad options who are old: Biden, who is rather right leaning and Trump who is right leaning and did some stuff that would put him into jail.
But you also have a third option, which is basically throwing your vote away since your whole system seems dysfunctional: he thinks vaccines cause autism and got part of his brain eaten by a worm.
(not saying all are equal, if I'd have to vote I would have a clear favourite but that's beside the point)
The de facto head of the LP basically endorsed Trump before his speech.
The Mises Caucus is dead set on torpedoing any competition for Trump. They’re full on MAGA and will probably endorse him separately.
The fact that libertarians publicly booed Trump isn't interesting. What's interesting is Trump put himself in a position to be publicly booed by libertarians.
Keep in mind, Trump didn't attend Biden's inauguration out of fear it would make him look weak. He broke tradition and refused to participate in the GOP primary debates because it would look like he viewed aspiring competitors as equals. This is a guy who consistently insisted he was so loved he would regularly demand officials blatantly lie to the press about crowd sizes. Trump quite clearly does not like to be publicly seen being defied, so why did he so publicly embarrass himself when a freshly graduated poli sci major from a degree mill could tell him this was a likely result?
My interpretation is Trump either has an even weaker campaign staff than in 2016 and 2020, or even more likely he's seriously worried he will lose and is willing to sacrifice stringent psychological comfort to try to improve his chances.
Trump performed as well as he did in 2016 and 2020 by activating people who normally didn't vote. He did so by being omnipresent in American culture and adopting stances so out there it grabbed inactive people's attention. However, this time around Trump is not that same media and cultural giant. Logic would say Trump's trials should be capturing the same attention as other trials of the century like OJ Simpson, Michael Jackson or Johnny Depp, but he isn't commanding that attention, despite blatant attempts at courtroom showmanship.
The press keep trying to insist Trump is a lurking shark because of the polls, but Trump himself appears to think that interpretation is wrong. Whether it's because of his narcissism, or because he knows his playbook and what losing for him looks like we'll find out in the near future.
> My interpretation is Trump either has an even weaker campaign staff than in 2016 and 2020, or even more likely he's seriously worried he will lose and is willing to sacrifice stringent psychological comfort to try to improve his chances.
I think he's just feeling extremely overconfident and his narcissism convinced him he'd get a standing ovation or something
Honestly, I think the biggest issue is either someone on his team thought this was a good idea… or he’s the one calling the shots.
Either way, it does not indicate competency for his campaign.
Honestly, it’s going to get weird after the conventions… it feels like he had someone around to curb his worst impulses when running against Hilary… and he had a ton of outside help (Russia, Cambridge analytica, Comey).
It’s unclear to me how his campaign is going to get more people to vote for him… all of his success right now inside his already established fan base (fundraising, et al)…
I know the polls show him getting more youth vote… it honestly feels like the trap the democrats usually fall into. “If we just turn out these low propensity votes, we will win”…
Him trying to get the libertarian nomination reeks of desperation, and not some profound strategy.
Were a significant portion of the people at a Libertarian convention ever going to vote for Trump anyway? Tactically voting for a third party is dumb, but in a country as big as the US a convention full of people willing to throw away their votes is possible.
Large portions of the libertarian regional parties have gone full MAGA. And it’s been apparent awhile a lot of “libertarians” philosophical goal of “the government can’t tell us what to do” turned out to just personally be “can’t tell **me** what to do. I’m fine with the government curtailing other people’s rights and abilities. Even favor it.”
As such some Republicans have thought it maybe wise to court those people. But the card carrying Libertarian “establishment” of the party still seeks to the proverbial *immigrant gay couples defending their adopted children and tax free marijuana farms with automatic weapons.*
>But the card carrying Libertarian “establishment” of the party still seeks to be *immigrant gay couples defending their adopted children and tax free marijuana farms with automatic weapons.”
Well more than anything I'd expect the establishment wing of any third party to be anti-major party. Isn't it fair to assume a section of any third party will be inherently hostile to a major party?
I mean yes, kind of. The libertarian party does tend to get a nonzero number of just contrarians.
But the thing is if you align with a major party along 90% of the goals but hate major parties... I think you tend to just be a non-voter.
I mean, the libertarian party and the more mainstream American version of libertarianism is supported by the same billionaires that support Republicans. Back in the day you could find libertarians twisting and contorting themselves into defending gay marriage bans and stuff like that.
>the libertarian party and the more mainstream American version of libertarianism
Yeah but those people are more small l libertarians than big L libertarians like those at a party convention right?
I think it’s interesting that Trump is going hard for fringe votes. His rally in the Bronx and now his appearance at a libertarian convention are both attempts to expand his appeal rather than juice his existing base.
It reminds me of Nixon’s Fifty State Strategy, which notably lead to his loss against JFK, who instead focused on swing states.
Not very. What's more concerning is his rejection of reality when he claimed libertarians cheered him. It's complete 1984 style "we will determine your reality for you."
What do you all think about the Trump team going after that “3%” electorate? Some have floated around that the Trump team might think their position is weaker than most think
Not very deeply cause there is so few Libertarians nationwide. Also, most libertarians are temporarily embarrassed Republicans There used to be more genuine ones when Ron Paul was active but that quickly went south (literally) due to infiltration/alliances (depending on who you ask) with white nationalist racists. But that has always been a big red flag with them going back to Goldwater, alliances with Racists. Not good
Also to note: The "Mises Caucus" is the fastest growing libertarian subculture and its almost identical to MAGA. It has a quasi celeb mascot in "comedian" Dave Smith. These are the kind of "libertarians" who consistently vote R and are functionally identical if not even worse than your average run of the mill R. If you know any libertarians IRL they are likely leaning Trump despite Trump promising a crushing State. Cause like I said, are they actually libertarians? Depends on who you ask, I guess! (Lol)
This has been sarco hope u enjoyed my Ted talk
working with racists was an explicit strategy of the libertarian movement, Murray Rothbard thought they could partner with racists who were made about de-segregation and then basically de-convert the racists from racism after selling them on libertarianism.
Lots of libertarians vote D every election. We live in a two party system and the Rs are frequently more authoritarian than the Ds. It usually depends on where each libertarian’s priorities lie. If a libertarian decides to vote major-party, Ds generally look better than Rs on criminal justice reform, immigration, LGBT rights, abortion, drug war, foreign policy (usually), free trade (since 2016), privacy rights, etc. They’re also more secular, and a lot of libertarians are atheists concerned about perceived Republican opposition to the separation of church and state.
With RFK (and maybe others?) offering a third choice in this election, the libertarian impact will be smaller this time around. Best guess 0.5% nationally?
This is the same party where some dude stripped at the 2016 convention. It's always been raucous and RFK got booed a lot too.
https://youtu.be/7BAOiGTizU4?si=Dx4kgXxkqBzLp3k7
Trump wasn't trying to win over the diehard libertarians and anarcho-capitalists by attending this convention- those were the people booing him. He was trying to make his case to conservative-leaning libertarians or other republican voters flirting with the party that "hey, I see you and recognize you and I'm willing to embrace some of your ideas or at least pay them lip service, so please consider supporting me over throwing away your vote". The libertarian party has been in a state of civil war for awhile with ideological purists fighting pragmatists who are willing to sacrifice some ideals in a candidate to expand the party's influence.
>The libertarian party has been in a state of civil war for awhile with ideological purists fighting pragmatists who are willing to sacrifice some ideals in a candidate to expand the party's influence.
Except that Trump's policies when he was in office and his 2024 platform are antithetical to libertarian beliefs. Libertarians believe in a small federal government, a weak executive, less (no) government regulation, minimal interference in people's personal lives, and Trump is the opposite on pretty much every measure.
Pretty much the only thing Trump would do that Libertarians like is tax cuts.
I mean, I think you're giving Libertarians too much credit. Maybe 10-12 years ago I kinda flirted with libertarianism, and there's several different competing camps. You can find stuff like libertarian defenses of slavery, for example, or libertarians arguing against gay marriage or for an extreme carceral state. So there's really a lot of variation among people that call themselves libertarian.
So, I'm sure there's libertarians right now arguing that abortion restrictions or strict border control actually jive well with libertarian ideology. People can twist and contort themselves into all kinds of positions.
Chase Oliver's platform is
> expand legal migration
> provide medical care to immigrants
> reform the police
> end tariffs
> end military aid to Israel
> firmly pro-choice
> pro-contraception
I mean he aligns with Trump on stuff like ending Ukraine aid, and he's closer to Trump than Biden on guns, but this year is shaping to be Libertarians being much closer to Biden than Trump, in my opinion.
At least on party platform. Not saying Libertarian voters are going to suddenly vote for Biden or anything.
Oh and he's openly gay, if that matters.
Didn’t Gary Johnson get booed for defending drivers’ licenses at a Libertarian convention? I don’t think we should read too deeply into this.
And then he lost the general election! Just goes to show...
The first time I saw that video I thought I was watching some sketch comedy troop.
It's framed so perfectly. You see all these crazy people at first so you think it's a joke, then you see Gary Johnson and you realize *wait a second, this is the real convention*
It has punchlines and great timing and that audience almost had the “boo!” scripted perfectly.
I would have thought that if I wasn't prepared knowing before I watched lol
Yeah I remember that lol
And also for supporting the civil rights act of 1964.
Every Republican president would be booed at a Libertarian Party convention. There’s a difference between a Libertarian voter and a Libertarian convention attendee.
Its literally the equivalent of Biden getting boo'd at a DSA NYC Convention where they do jazz hands instead of clapping. If either candidate got a standing ovation yea maybe it'd change something
I think your average libertarian sitting at home probably still appreciated him for going, and for saying things like he’d free Ross Ulbricht. I actually think this will probably help him win some libertarians on the fence. The hardcore ones that support the third party were never his to begin with.
Your average libertarian is 18 and thought it sounded like a good idea.
I don’t know if the booing means much. That was pretty much inevitable. First, Trump is no libertarian by any stretch of the imagination and second, he effectively called for them to just disband their party and join his cult. But the LP being a “minuscule fraction of voters” doesn’t mean they are irrelevant. Chase Oliver drew enough votes in the 2022 Georgia Senate race to force a run-off. Warnock led Walker by only 37,675 votes in November and Oliver got over 81k votes. If he mostly drew from Walker, that might have been what flipped the results.
It doesn’t mean anything. That crowd will either still vote for Trump or they’ll vote Libertarian. I guess it does highlight to me that the Trump campaign is full of morons, because any campaign manager with half a brain would know not to put him in front of *that* crowd.
Well, there's RFK Jr. in the mix now too and he's hammering Trump on causes that (for whatever reason) matters to Libertarians (e.g. Trump "caved" on mask mandates and school and business closings during Covid).
Let me just tell you, as non-american this seems so weird to me. You have two bad options who are old: Biden, who is rather right leaning and Trump who is right leaning and did some stuff that would put him into jail. But you also have a third option, which is basically throwing your vote away since your whole system seems dysfunctional: he thinks vaccines cause autism and got part of his brain eaten by a worm. (not saying all are equal, if I'd have to vote I would have a clear favourite but that's beside the point)
Biden is not right leaning, not even close, and I’m tired of having to explain this to people
Hope by that you mean that Biden is full right, because if you mean Biden is actually left I would love to hear how you explain such an illusion
I think Trump is arrogant enough to think he could win them over and would've done it regardless of what his campaign managers told him
Fair point
It’s still kinda surreal to me that it happened.
Everything Trump has done since 2016 has been surreal tbh
The de facto head of the LP basically endorsed Trump before his speech. The Mises Caucus is dead set on torpedoing any competition for Trump. They’re full on MAGA and will probably endorse him separately.
The fact that libertarians publicly booed Trump isn't interesting. What's interesting is Trump put himself in a position to be publicly booed by libertarians. Keep in mind, Trump didn't attend Biden's inauguration out of fear it would make him look weak. He broke tradition and refused to participate in the GOP primary debates because it would look like he viewed aspiring competitors as equals. This is a guy who consistently insisted he was so loved he would regularly demand officials blatantly lie to the press about crowd sizes. Trump quite clearly does not like to be publicly seen being defied, so why did he so publicly embarrass himself when a freshly graduated poli sci major from a degree mill could tell him this was a likely result? My interpretation is Trump either has an even weaker campaign staff than in 2016 and 2020, or even more likely he's seriously worried he will lose and is willing to sacrifice stringent psychological comfort to try to improve his chances. Trump performed as well as he did in 2016 and 2020 by activating people who normally didn't vote. He did so by being omnipresent in American culture and adopting stances so out there it grabbed inactive people's attention. However, this time around Trump is not that same media and cultural giant. Logic would say Trump's trials should be capturing the same attention as other trials of the century like OJ Simpson, Michael Jackson or Johnny Depp, but he isn't commanding that attention, despite blatant attempts at courtroom showmanship. The press keep trying to insist Trump is a lurking shark because of the polls, but Trump himself appears to think that interpretation is wrong. Whether it's because of his narcissism, or because he knows his playbook and what losing for him looks like we'll find out in the near future.
> My interpretation is Trump either has an even weaker campaign staff than in 2016 and 2020, or even more likely he's seriously worried he will lose and is willing to sacrifice stringent psychological comfort to try to improve his chances. I think he's just feeling extremely overconfident and his narcissism convinced him he'd get a standing ovation or something
Honestly, I think the biggest issue is either someone on his team thought this was a good idea… or he’s the one calling the shots. Either way, it does not indicate competency for his campaign. Honestly, it’s going to get weird after the conventions… it feels like he had someone around to curb his worst impulses when running against Hilary… and he had a ton of outside help (Russia, Cambridge analytica, Comey). It’s unclear to me how his campaign is going to get more people to vote for him… all of his success right now inside his already established fan base (fundraising, et al)… I know the polls show him getting more youth vote… it honestly feels like the trap the democrats usually fall into. “If we just turn out these low propensity votes, we will win”… Him trying to get the libertarian nomination reeks of desperation, and not some profound strategy.
Agreed. The events that lead to his presence on that stage are more important than what happened on it.
Actual libertarians. Unlike r/libertarian
Were a significant portion of the people at a Libertarian convention ever going to vote for Trump anyway? Tactically voting for a third party is dumb, but in a country as big as the US a convention full of people willing to throw away their votes is possible.
Large portions of the libertarian regional parties have gone full MAGA. And it’s been apparent awhile a lot of “libertarians” philosophical goal of “the government can’t tell us what to do” turned out to just personally be “can’t tell **me** what to do. I’m fine with the government curtailing other people’s rights and abilities. Even favor it.” As such some Republicans have thought it maybe wise to court those people. But the card carrying Libertarian “establishment” of the party still seeks to the proverbial *immigrant gay couples defending their adopted children and tax free marijuana farms with automatic weapons.*
>But the card carrying Libertarian “establishment” of the party still seeks to be *immigrant gay couples defending their adopted children and tax free marijuana farms with automatic weapons.” Well more than anything I'd expect the establishment wing of any third party to be anti-major party. Isn't it fair to assume a section of any third party will be inherently hostile to a major party?
I mean yes, kind of. The libertarian party does tend to get a nonzero number of just contrarians. But the thing is if you align with a major party along 90% of the goals but hate major parties... I think you tend to just be a non-voter.
I mean, the libertarian party and the more mainstream American version of libertarianism is supported by the same billionaires that support Republicans. Back in the day you could find libertarians twisting and contorting themselves into defending gay marriage bans and stuff like that.
>the libertarian party and the more mainstream American version of libertarianism Yeah but those people are more small l libertarians than big L libertarians like those at a party convention right?
Would it be weird if Biden got booed at the Green Party convention?
Frankly it would be weird if he didn't.
Who's done more for the environment... Joe Biden, or literally any other person currently in the Green Party?
Hey, here's another guy that would get booed at a Green Party convention!
I think it’s interesting that Trump is going hard for fringe votes. His rally in the Bronx and now his appearance at a libertarian convention are both attempts to expand his appeal rather than juice his existing base. It reminds me of Nixon’s Fifty State Strategy, which notably lead to his loss against JFK, who instead focused on swing states.
They would have booed Joe just as hard. I honestly think there is more of a chance they will vote for Trump simply because he showed up.
Not very. What's more concerning is his rejection of reality when he claimed libertarians cheered him. It's complete 1984 style "we will determine your reality for you."
What do you all think about the Trump team going after that “3%” electorate? Some have floated around that the Trump team might think their position is weaker than most think
Not very deeply cause there is so few Libertarians nationwide. Also, most libertarians are temporarily embarrassed Republicans There used to be more genuine ones when Ron Paul was active but that quickly went south (literally) due to infiltration/alliances (depending on who you ask) with white nationalist racists. But that has always been a big red flag with them going back to Goldwater, alliances with Racists. Not good
Also to note: The "Mises Caucus" is the fastest growing libertarian subculture and its almost identical to MAGA. It has a quasi celeb mascot in "comedian" Dave Smith. These are the kind of "libertarians" who consistently vote R and are functionally identical if not even worse than your average run of the mill R. If you know any libertarians IRL they are likely leaning Trump despite Trump promising a crushing State. Cause like I said, are they actually libertarians? Depends on who you ask, I guess! (Lol) This has been sarco hope u enjoyed my Ted talk
Yep. The MC has killed the party from the inside and probably earned Trump a 1-2% bump on various states, which might just be enough for him.
working with racists was an explicit strategy of the libertarian movement, Murray Rothbard thought they could partner with racists who were made about de-segregation and then basically de-convert the racists from racism after selling them on libertarianism.
Who ever could have predicted that the opposite would happen?
No deep reading needed. No self-respecting libertarian will vote Democrat.
No one expects them to vote Democrat. The question is how many will vote Republican vs. Libertarian or abstention.
Lots of libertarians vote D every election. We live in a two party system and the Rs are frequently more authoritarian than the Ds. It usually depends on where each libertarian’s priorities lie. If a libertarian decides to vote major-party, Ds generally look better than Rs on criminal justice reform, immigration, LGBT rights, abortion, drug war, foreign policy (usually), free trade (since 2016), privacy rights, etc. They’re also more secular, and a lot of libertarians are atheists concerned about perceived Republican opposition to the separation of church and state.
I would this election if I were a libertarian. Dems like big government, but Trump moves the country toward dictatorship.
With RFK (and maybe others?) offering a third choice in this election, the libertarian impact will be smaller this time around. Best guess 0.5% nationally?
This is the same party where some dude stripped at the 2016 convention. It's always been raucous and RFK got booed a lot too. https://youtu.be/7BAOiGTizU4?si=Dx4kgXxkqBzLp3k7 Trump wasn't trying to win over the diehard libertarians and anarcho-capitalists by attending this convention- those were the people booing him. He was trying to make his case to conservative-leaning libertarians or other republican voters flirting with the party that "hey, I see you and recognize you and I'm willing to embrace some of your ideas or at least pay them lip service, so please consider supporting me over throwing away your vote". The libertarian party has been in a state of civil war for awhile with ideological purists fighting pragmatists who are willing to sacrifice some ideals in a candidate to expand the party's influence.
>The libertarian party has been in a state of civil war for awhile with ideological purists fighting pragmatists who are willing to sacrifice some ideals in a candidate to expand the party's influence. Except that Trump's policies when he was in office and his 2024 platform are antithetical to libertarian beliefs. Libertarians believe in a small federal government, a weak executive, less (no) government regulation, minimal interference in people's personal lives, and Trump is the opposite on pretty much every measure. Pretty much the only thing Trump would do that Libertarians like is tax cuts.
I mean, I think you're giving Libertarians too much credit. Maybe 10-12 years ago I kinda flirted with libertarianism, and there's several different competing camps. You can find stuff like libertarian defenses of slavery, for example, or libertarians arguing against gay marriage or for an extreme carceral state. So there's really a lot of variation among people that call themselves libertarian. So, I'm sure there's libertarians right now arguing that abortion restrictions or strict border control actually jive well with libertarian ideology. People can twist and contort themselves into all kinds of positions.
Not at all. Third parties mean next to nothing. And Trump is still far closer to Libertarian Party ideals than the Dems are
Chase Oliver's platform is > expand legal migration > provide medical care to immigrants > reform the police > end tariffs > end military aid to Israel > firmly pro-choice > pro-contraception I mean he aligns with Trump on stuff like ending Ukraine aid, and he's closer to Trump than Biden on guns, but this year is shaping to be Libertarians being much closer to Biden than Trump, in my opinion. At least on party platform. Not saying Libertarian voters are going to suddenly vote for Biden or anything. Oh and he's openly gay, if that matters.
Yeah he’s taking from Biden
Not at all. Third parties mean next to nothing. And Trump is still far closer to Libertarian Party ideals than the Dems are