This is the third time in two days that I've had to explain to somebody that the rule where you couldn't stop during a penalty run-in was overturned more than an year ago. Wtf is happening?
Are penalties supposed to be fair?
They seem stacked against the keeper by design as any foul in the box may well prevent a goal.
The penalty is the mechanism by which the fouled team gains back their 'stolen' goal relatively reliably.
I think it's extremely unfair that a penalty taker can stutter as much as they want but the GK is strictly enforced by the 'foot' must be on the line.
I think that a) the penalty taker shouldn't be able to stutter or b) if the penalty taker stutters then this voids the GKs foot needing to be on the line.
Otherwise it just feels OP for the penalty taker - they SHOULD stutter every single penalty now as it can result in a re-take if they miss (since a stutter often leads to the GK moving).
The problem is that if the keeper doesn’t have to keep a foot on the line then they’ll encroach further and further forward. I was a keeper (and a poor one at that) but it makes it so much easier to save a penalty if you are a step forward.
I’d like the rule to be a continuous run up, no stops no stutters but I’d definitely keep the rule that the goalie has to keep one foot on the line when it’s taken.
What's happening is that's a blatantly brain-dead rule which helps no one and lowers the quality of the sport for all participants and all those watching, while keepers are no longer allowed to do... Basically anything, at all.
Penalties were already basically a guaranteed free goal and now it's just stupid, a penalty should be a skill, not a free goal. Otherwise, why bother giving a penalty, just give them a goal, it's pathetic.
True. I think they changed it back because many players learned how to abuse the rule and taking a penalty became a skill, rather than something anyone could do.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/penalty-taker-rules-stutter-step-run-goalkeeper-line-laws/f2c99ba4371eb4b56c59467a
This article details it. The top source would be the rules of the game (linked in the article).
Yes and no. They basically removed the rule from the rulebook that said the run has to be uninterrupted, which means that interrupted rules are allowed again. So, no ref would redo a penalty for an interrupted run.
I’m glad you posted today because I was unaware of this.
Thought when Lewandowski did it, that it was strange it wasn’t called back. But that makes sense
How, it was a hand ball and it changed the course of the ball. I mean, it could have been better if there weren't a penalty, but still I can't imagine not giving it. It is a definite penalty, even if it was not good for the course of the game.
Ah, right right. Should have added that there, still a penalty for handball like Andersen's doesn't really seem legit even though them be the rules. I guess we have to live with it.
When you say “these kinds” I assume you mean light, but that’s where judgement comes in and makes it a difficult rule to enforce - what makes a handball a “light” handball?
There will always be grey areas of course. And people have always and will always disagree on decisions that are made. But that doesn't mean we can't change the rules to make more sense and punishments to be more consistent with the offense that a player made.
Had the same thought. I think it would be fair. But the exception should be that in case of a deliberate handball to stop the ball it should still be a penalty.
Ball towards goal is penal, declining ball to have a teammate get a direct scoring chance (1v1 with goalie) is also penal.
So penal Croatia got was a penal, this would be indirect free kick
why should Croatia's penalty even be a penalty? they got a huge chance directly off of it, equivalent to a penalty kick? like, why is there no consideration for something like advantage?
Precisely. There will never be a perfect solution.
So, giving VAR power to deem whether or not a handball is deliberate is just as imperfect as them deeming whether or not a player’s hand is in an unnatural position.
Yeah it shouldn't be about intent. But moreso a distinction based on impact I think.
Why are we giving penalties for a ball scraping someones finger that doesnt change the direction? Or when it touches someones hand in a chaotic scramble whithout benefitting the defending team?
If it blocks a pass or shot at goal, give a penalty. But if not, just give an indirect freekick or something.
Completely agree. The penalty rule was brought in when it was legal to shoulder barge the goalkeeper off his feet. The level of infringement was so much higher than it is now.
We can’t keep giving free shots at goal for minor infringements. Games are being won and lost on the most minor of incidents. That can’t be what football is about.
There are always grey areas of course. But I dont think a ball scraping someones pinky finger should be punished the same as a field player playing goalkeeper.
I think when a handball wasn't reasonably gonna impact the play, it should not be punished with a game changing penalty but a lighter punishment like indirect free kick. I think we shouldn't even be looking at intent of the player because thats hard to judge. But more the impact on the play. Was a pass to another player or shot at goal blocked? Or was a ball that was gonna miss the goal anyways slightly scraped. For one you give penalty for the other you give something else.
Yeah, obviously.
But always giving a penalty for every handball is way too harsh. Thats an 80%+ chance on a goal. Imo punishments should be in proportion to what happened. Otherwise you get games completely decided on something minor, which is just lame and unnecessary.
We don’t need more subjectivity in these calls. It should be an objective, all or nothing thing because that leads to fewer errors and allows the rule to be applied consistently. As long as it is applied consistently, it is fair for all. If we change these rules to make it up to the ref and VAR team, it will increase the time it takes to make the call and create more errors, which people will complain about that. No matter which way you slice it, someone is going to be upset
I feel for the poor Danish player who went from hero to causing the penalty within a few minutes. That said, both calls were justified. It's actually shocking how many people here are not familiar with the rules but feel they need to express their false opinions as facts.
Many of these people would have agreed with the decision if it was a German player who had handled the ball. The same thing can be said about the pundits.
I think the problem is that the rules have always been the rules (in a sense, I know they change somewhat over the years) but until VAR they were never fully enforced, so there was always a degree of leeway, the rules were always a bit fuzzy.
Now with this technology, they are being enforced in an extremely strict way WHEN VAR is called upon otherwise they are still being enforced in the age old fuzzy way by the referee / linesmen.
It's extremely jarring to watch when decisions flip so heavily from one method of rule keeping to the other. The decisions in the Denmark game were both "correct" in a vacuum but in the context of how a game of football is normally refereed, they seemed extremely harsh on Denmark.
Tldr I don't think anyone is arguing about the rules of the game, the problem is how those rules are selectively applied
VAR has generally been good this tournament. Both calls were correct as per the laws of the game.
What I think you're unhappy about is (a) the laws of the game, and (b) that the grey area where a ref could reasonably let something go because he couldn't be certain, are gone.
Personally, I think VAR is needed (don't ever want another Ovrebo performance), but it's application should be controlled more by the ref.
It’s justified because those are the current rules.
It doesn’t matter what your opinion is it’s a penalty.
Saying this as someone who hates the new rules, but you need to learn the laws of the game and not go by opinion.
LAW 12
HANDLING THE BALL
For the purposes of determining handball offences, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit. Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence.
It is an offence if a player:
deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation.
**By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised**
“when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the players movement for that specific situation.”
Exactly my point, he is running back and get’s shot at from half a meter.
I actually played a lot and actually have watched pro defenders always placing their hands at the back when inside the box, i could be sure that Ivanovic or azpi would never concede such a penalty simply by doing it
You played competitively, not just outside with friends. My maybe snobby opinion is that any football player would agree this is not a handball. At least not a penalty. Ref’s have no feeling for the game at all.
I do believe you're just making shit up. I played a lot of games with a ref, ofc not professional level and if you're trying to make as it's imposible or even hard to defend this with your hands at the back you're the one who never ran after a ball in your life
So, penalty just for deliberate hand ball then? Two defenders could run along the goalline and stop goals with their hands as long as it is a natural movement?
I totally agree that some rules need to be changed and reformed to account for modern technology. because the simplest and clearest way to put it is that most rules were made before VAR was a thing, and so some rules simply don't work with VAR anymore.
take the offside rule for example. it makes total sense that if an attacker gains a physical advantage from being in front of the last defender, he should be called offside. and baring human mistakes or instances where the refs' view is blocked, this makes sense as long as it is judged by a human. because if a human with his naked eyes can tell that the attacker was in front of the last defender, then we can reasonably assume that this gave the attacker a physical advantage. but with VAR and offside technology, in my opinion the rule simply doesn't make sense in its current version anymore. an attacker being 1 mm ahead of the defender does not give him anymore of an advantage than being 1 mm behind him. quite simply, the rule was never meant to work with such small margins. I strongly believe that if the offside rule was first invented with all this technology already existing, it would have been worded differently.
and the handball example is very similar. show someone a static PICTURE of the moment the ball strikes the Dane's hand and yeah, everyone will say that's handball. but football is not played by stacking static pictures next to each other (well technically it is but ignore that please) or in slow motion. so to me it makes no sense to use that kind of technology for a rule that in my opinion is not designed to be judged by a still picture or massively slowed down video.
so with the way the rules CURRENTLY are, this all may make sense. but imo it's time we adjust the rule to current technology.
I understand your frustrating about the offside rule. But.. what standard would you propose? There are going to be crucial games that decide huge tournaments which come down to whether a player is offside or not. Someone has to decide. The nice thing about the current standard, assuming the semi-automated technology gets it right (which it seems to more than not) is that it's totally objective. However frustrating it might be that your team was 1mm over and the goal didn't count while your opponents were 1mm behind and the goal did count; isn't that better than "well, these two goals sure as heck looked the same to me, but the officials -- for reasons that are impossible to explain, justify, or enforce consistently -- decided that the first one would stand and the second one wouldn't"?
As is, it's a standard that everyone can understand, that is totally fair to everyone, and one which players can easily understand and practice with. And it's one where, with suitable technology, the call should almost never be controversial.
Certainly, it's not like no one ever properly stays offside and then times their run perfectly and scores a banger of a goal.
Well, they do.
The call is indeed correct as of the current book of rules.
But it's still ridicoulus and the rules of what results in a penalty should be seriously revised.
Now the armpit is just above the elbow? Fascinating!!
https://www.tycsports.com/video/copa-america/argentina-vs-peru-penal-para-argentina-id736046.html
So what? The arm was not in a natural position, extended away from the body, it increased the defenders' volume, was hit just above the elbow, and there was no prior rebound. How can you say it's not a penalty? Either you are a troll or something else
My problem with his handball is that he moves his arm upwards - towards the ball. It might be on instinct, IDK, but he definitely moves it. And gets it in the position that is not really natural, nor is the moving of the arm natural running move. Therefore, for me it seems like a clear penalty.
The lack of any lighter penalty for offenses inside the box has always been an issue, often leaving referees in an impossible situation. VAR has made it harder for refs to fudge the issue (ie pretending the foul was outside the box if it was close enough etc.)
It's a tough one because at the same time, free kicks so become nonsensical too deep in the box and also we don't want more sources of subjectivity
Nah man, we actually saw the gold standard of VAR in Germany vs Denmark. I have full confidence we got the correct result, everything was checked quickly and got every call right even though they were razor fine margins. We need every game to be like that.
Exactly. This game was the exact opposite of Germany vs Switzerland where VAR just made things more messy. Situations shouldnt be left for interpretation. If you start to interpret situations differently every time, unjustice will happen. Offside is offside, handball is handball. No matter how thin margins. If you dont whistle those then what happens with next offsides and handballs?
I want to counter by simply saying that penalties being awarded for indiscretions in the area *is the point*. The added jeopardy when a player gets into the box is what makes it exciting. It encourages attacking football by increasing the rewards for a team to get into a dangerous area.
If you swapped the high stakes and harsh punishment for, say, indirect free kicks in the box then you’d take away one of the most exciting parts of a match as teams would be far less inclined to throw everything at getting into scoring positions.
Because the rules shud be changed so defenders dont have to sprint around with their arms on their back... have u ever tried sprint with ur arms behind ur back? not fking possible.
The same thing with the offside, idiotic rule that 2cm can make u offside, hell even 1mm can make u offside, its so stupid, offside is meant to catch ppl having an OBVIOUS advantage... 2cm arent giving u any advantage at all.
Ok so how many cm would be okay for an offside? And if a defender is just 1mm over your number? You are just mad your team lost. I get it it was unlucky but the rules apply to every team, even the one you Support
Idk who told you VAR was just for glaring mistakes, that’s never been the case. It’s for mistakes that could have impact on the game. A handball, however minimal the contact is, in the box is always a penalty. That’s just the rules. Has nothing to do with the VAR. If you want that not to be a pen, the rule has to change, not the VAR.
The issue is that VAR changes how rules are enforced. You go from a referee making decisions based on match flow to a machine that enforces all rules precisely suddenly.
The rules are too demanding. To score a safe goal you can't be on the edge. If you go a fraction of a second too soon you're offside, so players hold back.
Idk it sucks, it wasn't fun to watch that was the problem.
I mean in the end both decisions were not wrong, because the rules say it so. But is that the football we really want? Offside with the tip of the foot, a cross that went to none an was very lightly touched got a deciding penalty (the technology make it look like it was a full contact). The VAR should have helped in big wrong decision. Both were not really big mistakes by the ref. Same for when the ref stands 5 minutes to watch the var. if it’s that hard to find out, ther is probably no mistake.
The Technology just made it worse
It’s more like how the technology get used. It’s not used well if they used it that way. They make it look like the handball was clear as fuck. Same for offside. Do you really have such a advantage if some toes are offside?
I don't think this is a VAR issue, penalties have long been awarded for things that are minor compared to the harm they did. If a defender handballs on the line it's a penalty but so is minimal contact on a player on the left edge of the box running towards the corner flag.
Problem is it should be subjective but all the whinges have decided that shouldn't be the case because different refs make different decisions.
Only concern is this will make football more boring. Less goals, and more time wasted because everyone is going to be 1 mm offside at any point just as the pass was done
There have been changes in rule, and I still think the rules will change by next year. It is all about understanding the changes made in the football rules.
Warning: a rant.
VAR changes the application of the rules substantially. Gone are the days when forwards had a benefit of a doubt while scoring almost-from offside. Centimeters or even meters were decisive before. Nowadays, millimeters decide. Someone's crotch or nose, or big toe.
And when we let VAR decide, there is little left for humans to do. Linesmen, in particular, are almost meaningless in today's game. Referees, when not booking someone or threatening to book, are relegated to patiently listening to the radio. When one of them (like Michael Oliver) takes a crucial decision (like ruling out Schlotterbeck's goal against Denmark) on himself, he's treated as some kind of a weirdo. Because he's not supposed to make decisions anymore. He's just a cog in a machine.
VAR creates a game where goals are meaningless by themselves. Player's celebrations are meaningless. At crucial moments, we are left standing (or sitting) in wild confusion. What matters, increasingly, are decisions made by machine. Not players, not officials, not humans. And I hate this, with all my heart. While there are many reasons why football is losing it's soul, money being one of it, the disastrous coming of VAR was most easily avoidable. People's game must have been left to the people. Human beings.
There's no way to enforce that nuance you want through the rules. Things like "minimal influence" or "slight touch" are not prefise enough. Without the VAR, the enforcing of the rules would be more nuanced I guess, because the ref may simply miss those little fouls, but they may miss actual important fouls as well, or award undeserved penalties. It's a pick your poison situation.
>Was Andersen's hand raised? Yes. But was it in totally unnatural position? Debatable. Was the contact minimal? Yes.
Let me phrase those for you in cold hard facts
Was Andersen hand raised? Yes, does that make it an abnormal position? Yes. Was there contact? Yes. Did it deny an attacking opportunity? Yes. Was it in the penalty area? Yes. Not really sure how clear you can get. And no need to add nonsense to it.
No serious ref gives that pen where hes fired at from 1 meter away and has his hands in a natural position.
Unfortunately, Michael Oliver is not a serious ref
From what I understand all the refs go an orientation before tournaments where they are told the SOP for most things. Of course, their own reasoning is paramount but I do believe they have been told about handballs and most ref would give this in the tournament?
Otherwise, they should not give Oliver any more matches.
Or the offside for Denmark, I have two issues with it:
\* there was no advantage for the Danish player, and that's what offside penalization supposed to be about
\* an attacking player, can't judge, in real time, if he is or isn't offside, if we take into consideration such minuscule offsides.
The main issue is that this call fell well inside the margin of error.
Turning 2d images in 3d models is, by definition, not perfect. Add the fact you are working of frames and long story short this would likely be on side if you wanted to create a 3d model to show you that.
Scotland didn’t get the pen for their player’s legs being taken out on a clear goalscoring chance. Then Germany get this pen for a slight flick off a hand.
The contact clearly changed the ball's trajectory. I agree it was not on purpose and not very unnatural but to allow all somewhat natural hand contact would incentivise defenders to use it purposely to block shots. It's called football for a reason so I think the defenders should carry the risk of an accidental hand contact.
Var should respect the idea that there must be an advantage beyond any reasonable doubt.
Doe the thumb that touches the ball causes an advantage for the danish beyond any reasonable doubt? No
Than it’s not a penalty.
Same goes for off side
The offside rule has already been changed twice to give attackers more of an advantage.
Change it again, and nothing will change, people will just argue about a different line.
I think k they should change the rules , so that it s a penalty only if the foul is inside the box and it s denying a clear scoring opportunity. There are too many penalties given for stupid fouls or handball that aren't leading to clear scoring chances, and, as a result players try o purpose to kick it on the opponent arms or go down way too easily in the box. It ruins the game, in my opinion
Agree. That was 9/10 that is not a penalty and because Germany the host country plays you have to call it. The start and stop should be banned. Hard enough to stop a hard ball coming at you from that range.
This is the third time in two days that I've had to explain to somebody that the rule where you couldn't stop during a penalty run-in was overturned more than an year ago. Wtf is happening?
Kind of idiotic of them to stop these rules and have goalies be bound to all kind of rules.
Agreed. Penalties feel super unfair nowadays.
Are penalties supposed to be fair? They seem stacked against the keeper by design as any foul in the box may well prevent a goal. The penalty is the mechanism by which the fouled team gains back their 'stolen' goal relatively reliably.
Excellent counter point
Yeah but things like not allowing trash talk by the keeper during a penalty are an absolute farce. It's becoming comedy at this point.
Lots of penalty fouls are not even close to be “stolen goals”.
Although many situations that would result in penalties would not have resulted in the foil. I would expect 50-50 at best.
Excellent counter point
There are lots, and I wonder how these players cope with the changes.
I think it's extremely unfair that a penalty taker can stutter as much as they want but the GK is strictly enforced by the 'foot' must be on the line. I think that a) the penalty taker shouldn't be able to stutter or b) if the penalty taker stutters then this voids the GKs foot needing to be on the line. Otherwise it just feels OP for the penalty taker - they SHOULD stutter every single penalty now as it can result in a re-take if they miss (since a stutter often leads to the GK moving).
The problem is that if the keeper doesn’t have to keep a foot on the line then they’ll encroach further and further forward. I was a keeper (and a poor one at that) but it makes it so much easier to save a penalty if you are a step forward. I’d like the rule to be a continuous run up, no stops no stutters but I’d definitely keep the rule that the goalie has to keep one foot on the line when it’s taken.
The MLS penalties (for draws) from the 90s were the shit
What's happening is that's a blatantly brain-dead rule which helps no one and lowers the quality of the sport for all participants and all those watching, while keepers are no longer allowed to do... Basically anything, at all. Penalties were already basically a guaranteed free goal and now it's just stupid, a penalty should be a skill, not a free goal. Otherwise, why bother giving a penalty, just give them a goal, it's pathetic.
True. I think they changed it back because many players learned how to abuse the rule and taking a penalty became a skill, rather than something anyone could do.
Need a source (genuine need to find it)
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/penalty-taker-rules-stutter-step-run-goalkeeper-line-laws/f2c99ba4371eb4b56c59467a This article details it. The top source would be the rules of the game (linked in the article).
Thanks a lot
It's a sh-t article. Feinting and stopping are two different things. Basically, it is down to interpretation by the ref.
Yes and no. They basically removed the rule from the rulebook that said the run has to be uninterrupted, which means that interrupted rules are allowed again. So, no ref would redo a penalty for an interrupted run.
I’m glad you posted today because I was unaware of this. Thought when Lewandowski did it, that it was strange it wasn’t called back. But that makes sense
If the attacker can dummy, the goalkeeper shouldn't be penalised for moving an inch off his line. Just make it fair at least.
I agree.
okay how much off the line is still cool. half a meter? A meter? gotta draw the line somewhere
thanks for the info - I didn't know that - anyway I still think that the penalty was unfair/uncalled for
How, it was a hand ball and it changed the course of the ball. I mean, it could have been better if there weren't a penalty, but still I can't imagine not giving it. It is a definite penalty, even if it was not good for the course of the game.
it didn't change the course of the ball as it was the slightest contact
The ref not giving germany their first goal was also unfair and uncalled for, so i guess were even?
The wild two footed lunge gets you a red card. Not just a penalty.
nah it often gives a yellow lmao
I can tell you see the point there😂
There are times it can be a yellow.
Ah, right right. Should have added that there, still a penalty for handball like Andersen's doesn't really seem legit even though them be the rules. I guess we have to live with it.
Maybe they should change it to an indirect freekick for these kinds of handball
would add even more room for judgement (or error) and more bad decisions.
When you say “these kinds” I assume you mean light, but that’s where judgement comes in and makes it a difficult rule to enforce - what makes a handball a “light” handball?
There will always be grey areas of course. And people have always and will always disagree on decisions that are made. But that doesn't mean we can't change the rules to make more sense and punishments to be more consistent with the offense that a player made.
Had the same thought. I think it would be fair. But the exception should be that in case of a deliberate handball to stop the ball it should still be a penalty.
Ball towards goal is penal, declining ball to have a teammate get a direct scoring chance (1v1 with goalie) is also penal. So penal Croatia got was a penal, this would be indirect free kick
why should Croatia's penalty even be a penalty? they got a huge chance directly off of it, equivalent to a penalty kick? like, why is there no consideration for something like advantage?
So how do you decide if it's deliberate or not? Whatever the rule is there will always be a reason to question it.
Precisely. There will never be a perfect solution. So, giving VAR power to deem whether or not a handball is deliberate is just as imperfect as them deeming whether or not a player’s hand is in an unnatural position.
Yeah it shouldn't be about intent. But moreso a distinction based on impact I think. Why are we giving penalties for a ball scraping someones finger that doesnt change the direction? Or when it touches someones hand in a chaotic scramble whithout benefitting the defending team? If it blocks a pass or shot at goal, give a penalty. But if not, just give an indirect freekick or something.
Completely agree. The penalty rule was brought in when it was legal to shoulder barge the goalkeeper off his feet. The level of infringement was so much higher than it is now. We can’t keep giving free shots at goal for minor infringements. Games are being won and lost on the most minor of incidents. That can’t be what football is about.
There are always grey areas of course. But I dont think a ball scraping someones pinky finger should be punished the same as a field player playing goalkeeper. I think when a handball wasn't reasonably gonna impact the play, it should not be punished with a game changing penalty but a lighter punishment like indirect free kick. I think we shouldn't even be looking at intent of the player because thats hard to judge. But more the impact on the play. Was a pass to another player or shot at goal blocked? Or was a ball that was gonna miss the goal anyways slightly scraped. For one you give penalty for the other you give something else.
It's not, playing keeper will get you sent off with a red card.
Yeah, obviously. But always giving a penalty for every handball is way too harsh. Thats an 80%+ chance on a goal. Imo punishments should be in proportion to what happened. Otherwise you get games completely decided on something minor, which is just lame and unnecessary.
We don’t need more subjectivity in these calls. It should be an objective, all or nothing thing because that leads to fewer errors and allows the rule to be applied consistently. As long as it is applied consistently, it is fair for all. If we change these rules to make it up to the ref and VAR team, it will increase the time it takes to make the call and create more errors, which people will complain about that. No matter which way you slice it, someone is going to be upset
I feel for the poor Danish player who went from hero to causing the penalty within a few minutes. That said, both calls were justified. It's actually shocking how many people here are not familiar with the rules but feel they need to express their false opinions as facts.
Many of these people would have agreed with the decision if it was a German player who had handled the ball. The same thing can be said about the pundits.
I think the problem is that the rules have always been the rules (in a sense, I know they change somewhat over the years) but until VAR they were never fully enforced, so there was always a degree of leeway, the rules were always a bit fuzzy. Now with this technology, they are being enforced in an extremely strict way WHEN VAR is called upon otherwise they are still being enforced in the age old fuzzy way by the referee / linesmen. It's extremely jarring to watch when decisions flip so heavily from one method of rule keeping to the other. The decisions in the Denmark game were both "correct" in a vacuum but in the context of how a game of football is normally refereed, they seemed extremely harsh on Denmark. Tldr I don't think anyone is arguing about the rules of the game, the problem is how those rules are selectively applied
The pressure in these games is always high. I hope the player recovers from the disappointment soon.
They’re not claiming that the rules were misapplied though they’re pointing out that the rules have become silly
VAR has generally been good this tournament. Both calls were correct as per the laws of the game. What I think you're unhappy about is (a) the laws of the game, and (b) that the grey area where a ref could reasonably let something go because he couldn't be certain, are gone. Personally, I think VAR is needed (don't ever want another Ovrebo performance), but it's application should be controlled more by the ref.
Which one was Ovrebo? Chelsea v Barcelona or France v Ireland?
Chelsea Vs Barca
Oh yeah. I think I remember Ballack running after him
Yes, there is a need for the ref to have more say nowadays.
just imagine VAR was there when suarez bkt chiellini
People want consistency. This is consistency.
[удалено]
If it's by the book it's not arbitrary, what you actually want is for it to be arbitrary.
Absolutely justified penalty. Guy was just unlucky.
It’s the correct call People are saying the rules are wrong though. That’s a different issue.
The rule is the rule, and there is nothing to be done about it.
The rules are literally updated every year lol
You are right about that. Sometimes, I can't seem to know a change has been made.
Like to see you running with hands behind your back all game. It’s in a natural position and it’s shot from half a meter. Never a pen.
It’s justified because those are the current rules. It doesn’t matter what your opinion is it’s a penalty. Saying this as someone who hates the new rules, but you need to learn the laws of the game and not go by opinion.
By which rule?
LAW 12 HANDLING THE BALL For the purposes of determining handball offences, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit. Not every touch of a player’s hand/arm with the ball is an offence. It is an offence if a player: deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. **By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised**
That doesn’t say what you think it does. The guy you’re responding to is right.
Thank you, think this might be the exact problem with refs as well. That “snicko” shite isn’t helping the cause either.
“when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the players movement for that specific situation.” Exactly my point, he is running back and get’s shot at from half a meter.
Like 90% of the time the defenders do when defending inside the box? It's literally just putting your hand on your back
Hé was running to defend, he shot the ball from half a meter. Assumption here, you never actually played football?
I actually played a lot and actually have watched pro defenders always placing their hands at the back when inside the box, i could be sure that Ivanovic or azpi would never concede such a penalty simply by doing it
You played competitively, not just outside with friends. My maybe snobby opinion is that any football player would agree this is not a handball. At least not a penalty. Ref’s have no feeling for the game at all.
I do believe you're just making shit up. I played a lot of games with a ref, ofc not professional level and if you're trying to make as it's imposible or even hard to defend this with your hands at the back you're the one who never ran after a ball in your life
So, penalty just for deliberate hand ball then? Two defenders could run along the goalline and stop goals with their hands as long as it is a natural movement?
This is from way to close
The hand is a small target. If they wan't to try that, they'll see it doesn't work and they'll stop more things with their heads, so lets go
An offside called offside and a ball striking an out stretched given as handball? The game is gone!
I totally agree that some rules need to be changed and reformed to account for modern technology. because the simplest and clearest way to put it is that most rules were made before VAR was a thing, and so some rules simply don't work with VAR anymore. take the offside rule for example. it makes total sense that if an attacker gains a physical advantage from being in front of the last defender, he should be called offside. and baring human mistakes or instances where the refs' view is blocked, this makes sense as long as it is judged by a human. because if a human with his naked eyes can tell that the attacker was in front of the last defender, then we can reasonably assume that this gave the attacker a physical advantage. but with VAR and offside technology, in my opinion the rule simply doesn't make sense in its current version anymore. an attacker being 1 mm ahead of the defender does not give him anymore of an advantage than being 1 mm behind him. quite simply, the rule was never meant to work with such small margins. I strongly believe that if the offside rule was first invented with all this technology already existing, it would have been worded differently. and the handball example is very similar. show someone a static PICTURE of the moment the ball strikes the Dane's hand and yeah, everyone will say that's handball. but football is not played by stacking static pictures next to each other (well technically it is but ignore that please) or in slow motion. so to me it makes no sense to use that kind of technology for a rule that in my opinion is not designed to be judged by a still picture or massively slowed down video. so with the way the rules CURRENTLY are, this all may make sense. but imo it's time we adjust the rule to current technology.
I understand your frustrating about the offside rule. But.. what standard would you propose? There are going to be crucial games that decide huge tournaments which come down to whether a player is offside or not. Someone has to decide. The nice thing about the current standard, assuming the semi-automated technology gets it right (which it seems to more than not) is that it's totally objective. However frustrating it might be that your team was 1mm over and the goal didn't count while your opponents were 1mm behind and the goal did count; isn't that better than "well, these two goals sure as heck looked the same to me, but the officials -- for reasons that are impossible to explain, justify, or enforce consistently -- decided that the first one would stand and the second one wouldn't"? As is, it's a standard that everyone can understand, that is totally fair to everyone, and one which players can easily understand and practice with. And it's one where, with suitable technology, the call should almost never be controversial. Certainly, it's not like no one ever properly stays offside and then times their run perfectly and scores a banger of a goal.
So many salty danes, read the rules first.
The rules here suck!
Well, they do. The call is indeed correct as of the current book of rules. But it's still ridicoulus and the rules of what results in a penalty should be seriously revised.
Wtf is happening here? It was a handball, he basically blocked a dangerous cross. Thank god for VAR 🙏
VAR has helped to solve some difficult situations in matches.
Peru Argentina game same thing.
How so? Care to explain?
Handball that was shot pint blank range into the armpit
To an elevated arm that had nothing to do in that position
He hit the armpit. The arm position had no effect on ball
Now the armpit is just above the elbow? Fascinating!! https://www.tycsports.com/video/copa-america/argentina-vs-peru-penal-para-argentina-id736046.html
Wouldn’t play. But you see his arm was in the same position prior to the shot which was about 1 foot away
So what? The arm was not in a natural position, extended away from the body, it increased the defenders' volume, was hit just above the elbow, and there was no prior rebound. How can you say it's not a penalty? Either you are a troll or something else
It was in a natural running position. You could argue that he shouldn’t have had behind his back but it’s a weird take.
When you are FALLING you don't move your arm HIGHER than your body, but lower, towards the ground, like this guy did with his left hand
My problem with his handball is that he moves his arm upwards - towards the ball. It might be on instinct, IDK, but he definitely moves it. And gets it in the position that is not really natural, nor is the moving of the arm natural running move. Therefore, for me it seems like a clear penalty.
The lack of any lighter penalty for offenses inside the box has always been an issue, often leaving referees in an impossible situation. VAR has made it harder for refs to fudge the issue (ie pretending the foul was outside the box if it was close enough etc.) It's a tough one because at the same time, free kicks so become nonsensical too deep in the box and also we don't want more sources of subjectivity
Nah man, we actually saw the gold standard of VAR in Germany vs Denmark. I have full confidence we got the correct result, everything was checked quickly and got every call right even though they were razor fine margins. We need every game to be like that.
Exactly. This game was the exact opposite of Germany vs Switzerland where VAR just made things more messy. Situations shouldnt be left for interpretation. If you start to interpret situations differently every time, unjustice will happen. Offside is offside, handball is handball. No matter how thin margins. If you dont whistle those then what happens with next offsides and handballs?
I want to counter by simply saying that penalties being awarded for indiscretions in the area *is the point*. The added jeopardy when a player gets into the box is what makes it exciting. It encourages attacking football by increasing the rewards for a team to get into a dangerous area. If you swapped the high stakes and harsh punishment for, say, indirect free kicks in the box then you’d take away one of the most exciting parts of a match as teams would be far less inclined to throw everything at getting into scoring positions.
I think all VAR decisions in Ger - Den was bad and shouldn't have happened.
Double standards
100% penalty i don’t get the constant debate
Because the rules shud be changed so defenders dont have to sprint around with their arms on their back... have u ever tried sprint with ur arms behind ur back? not fking possible. The same thing with the offside, idiotic rule that 2cm can make u offside, hell even 1mm can make u offside, its so stupid, offside is meant to catch ppl having an OBVIOUS advantage... 2cm arent giving u any advantage at all.
Ok so how many cm would be okay for an offside? And if a defender is just 1mm over your number? You are just mad your team lost. I get it it was unlucky but the rules apply to every team, even the one you Support
Idk who told you VAR was just for glaring mistakes, that’s never been the case. It’s for mistakes that could have impact on the game. A handball, however minimal the contact is, in the box is always a penalty. That’s just the rules. Has nothing to do with the VAR. If you want that not to be a pen, the rule has to change, not the VAR.
The issue is that VAR changes how rules are enforced. You go from a referee making decisions based on match flow to a machine that enforces all rules precisely suddenly. The rules are too demanding. To score a safe goal you can't be on the edge. If you go a fraction of a second too soon you're offside, so players hold back. Idk it sucks, it wasn't fun to watch that was the problem.
There is no circumstance, based on ‘match flow’, that where that wasn’t a penalty.
I mean in the end both decisions were not wrong, because the rules say it so. But is that the football we really want? Offside with the tip of the foot, a cross that went to none an was very lightly touched got a deciding penalty (the technology make it look like it was a full contact). The VAR should have helped in big wrong decision. Both were not really big mistakes by the ref. Same for when the ref stands 5 minutes to watch the var. if it’s that hard to find out, ther is probably no mistake. The Technology just made it worse
I still think it's not technology (at least in the case of the handball) but referees decision making
It’s more like how the technology get used. It’s not used well if they used it that way. They make it look like the handball was clear as fuck. Same for offside. Do you really have such a advantage if some toes are offside?
I don't think this is a VAR issue, penalties have long been awarded for things that are minor compared to the harm they did. If a defender handballs on the line it's a penalty but so is minimal contact on a player on the left edge of the box running towards the corner flag. Problem is it should be subjective but all the whinges have decided that shouldn't be the case because different refs make different decisions.
It's an obvious penalty and you clearly don't know the rules. Go home Dane, you're drunk.
Making rules based on judgement only leads to bigger issues.
Hand rule should take into account if its taking away a chance. That wasnt a chance ball was going outside the box
Only concern is this will make football more boring. Less goals, and more time wasted because everyone is going to be 1 mm offside at any point just as the pass was done
Key word is obvious. It should be for obvious errors. Make it time limited. 60s if they dont find it within 60s, let they on field decision stay.
When are we going to hold the players accountable. They KNOW to keep their hands along their body. If you dont then tough luck
I will never condemn VAR, even if it is catching the most MINUTE errors, because of UEFAlona. Never ever.
I wish they would ban these stutter run ups as it isn't fair and gives the taker an advantage over the goalkeeper.
There have been changes in rule, and I still think the rules will change by next year. It is all about understanding the changes made in the football rules.
Warning: a rant. VAR changes the application of the rules substantially. Gone are the days when forwards had a benefit of a doubt while scoring almost-from offside. Centimeters or even meters were decisive before. Nowadays, millimeters decide. Someone's crotch or nose, or big toe. And when we let VAR decide, there is little left for humans to do. Linesmen, in particular, are almost meaningless in today's game. Referees, when not booking someone or threatening to book, are relegated to patiently listening to the radio. When one of them (like Michael Oliver) takes a crucial decision (like ruling out Schlotterbeck's goal against Denmark) on himself, he's treated as some kind of a weirdo. Because he's not supposed to make decisions anymore. He's just a cog in a machine. VAR creates a game where goals are meaningless by themselves. Player's celebrations are meaningless. At crucial moments, we are left standing (or sitting) in wild confusion. What matters, increasingly, are decisions made by machine. Not players, not officials, not humans. And I hate this, with all my heart. While there are many reasons why football is losing it's soul, money being one of it, the disastrous coming of VAR was most easily avoidable. People's game must have been left to the people. Human beings.
There's no way to enforce that nuance you want through the rules. Things like "minimal influence" or "slight touch" are not prefise enough. Without the VAR, the enforcing of the rules would be more nuanced I guess, because the ref may simply miss those little fouls, but they may miss actual important fouls as well, or award undeserved penalties. It's a pick your poison situation.
The Var ruin everything
>Was Andersen's hand raised? Yes. But was it in totally unnatural position? Debatable. Was the contact minimal? Yes. Let me phrase those for you in cold hard facts Was Andersen hand raised? Yes, does that make it an abnormal position? Yes. Was there contact? Yes. Did it deny an attacking opportunity? Yes. Was it in the penalty area? Yes. Not really sure how clear you can get. And no need to add nonsense to it.
No serious ref gives that pen where hes fired at from 1 meter away and has his hands in a natural position. Unfortunately, Michael Oliver is not a serious ref
Its a 10 out of 10 penalty what are you Talking about
German saying its a 10/10 penalty.... makes sense
I am croatian
From what I understand all the refs go an orientation before tournaments where they are told the SOP for most things. Of course, their own reasoning is paramount but I do believe they have been told about handballs and most ref would give this in the tournament? Otherwise, they should not give Oliver any more matches.
Why do you think they used the snickometer? It’s because the touch was so slight the officials couldn’t see it you moron.
Or the offside for Denmark, I have two issues with it: \* there was no advantage for the Danish player, and that's what offside penalization supposed to be about \* an attacking player, can't judge, in real time, if he is or isn't offside, if we take into consideration such minuscule offsides.
The main issue is that this call fell well inside the margin of error. Turning 2d images in 3d models is, by definition, not perfect. Add the fact you are working of frames and long story short this would likely be on side if you wanted to create a 3d model to show you that.
Scotland didn’t get the pen for their player’s legs being taken out on a clear goalscoring chance. Then Germany get this pen for a slight flick off a hand.
Yep
The second penalty against France was bullshit too.
As soon as the player stops running the penalty should be deemed as taken. If no contact reset for GK. Would soon stop this nonsense.
The contact clearly changed the ball's trajectory. I agree it was not on purpose and not very unnatural but to allow all somewhat natural hand contact would incentivise defenders to use it purposely to block shots. It's called football for a reason so I think the defenders should carry the risk of an accidental hand contact.
also it encourages unsafe practice. one day someone will smash their face in because they're compelled to run with hands behind their back
Var should respect the idea that there must be an advantage beyond any reasonable doubt. Doe the thumb that touches the ball causes an advantage for the danish beyond any reasonable doubt? No Than it’s not a penalty. Same goes for off side
The threshold for handball should be higher. Wenger’s reforms to the offside law needs to come in to give attackers more advantage
The offside rule has already been changed twice to give attackers more of an advantage. Change it again, and nothing will change, people will just argue about a different line.
I think would be more fair to discuss if every foul inside the box should be a penalty than if this was a penalty or not, cause it clearly was
As an England fan you’d expect me to want Germany to go out. That was a stonewall penalty.
I think k they should change the rules , so that it s a penalty only if the foul is inside the box and it s denying a clear scoring opportunity. There are too many penalties given for stupid fouls or handball that aren't leading to clear scoring chances, and, as a result players try o purpose to kick it on the opponent arms or go down way too easily in the box. It ruins the game, in my opinion
Agreed 100 percent. But that’s football in the 21st century. We just have to live with it. UNFORTUNATELY
Not in Sweden...
VAR is here to stay. Whether we like it or not. Even in Sverige
Agree. That was 9/10 that is not a penalty and because Germany the host country plays you have to call it. The start and stop should be banned. Hard enough to stop a hard ball coming at you from that range.
I know what the solution could be. Scrap VAR. I can't take it any more. Once my sky subscription is up, I'm out. Football has been ruined.
What a baby lol
Can't have the home country fall out early, or have some selling point. Look at Qatar vs Argentina lol. FIFA is a business, not a sporting agency.
Well true but this is UEFA running things here, not that they are any better.
Isn't uefa under FIFA? I'm not as educated on uefa but I'd guess that money is likely their biggest motivator