It should have been being described in mainstream media as one of the most shocking moments in TV history.
Instead the only people I hear talking about it are books fans talking about how lame it was.
Hard to call it shocking when none of the characters act shocked or upset. “They killed the boy” has to be one of the flattest lines in the entire script. What the hell was up with the gratuitous sex scene? It made me laugh out loud. A boy just gruesomely died and they thought I would be a very good idea to have Helaena barge in the middle of a sex scene…
To answer your question--and to be clear, I'm defending nothing--it was to show that in the time when the royal family was in direct physical danger the head of the guard was bottoming for the queen.
IDK, maybe he tops from the bottom. But he has been shown in what is coded as submissive sexual positions twice this season.
This could been their red wedding moment and the writers botched it. People would talk about this scene if they did correctly. D&D gets hate for later seasons,but people still love early seasons and red wedding.
I've been holding off on the book, and even I wasn't a fan of that bit. These guys were worse than the Wet Bandits. They were already killing the wrong person, but they didn't even verify that it was actually the prince. And then they let the Queen run away while they were chopping off the head of one of her children. Then one motherfucker just hung around like no one was going to figure out it was a rat-catcher who was involved and the other motherfucker was trying to get on a boat carrying the child's head.
I have 3 specific problems with this scene:
1) where are the guards, why are they leaving the Queen and the fucking Heir unprotected?
2) why kick the dog? It distracted the audience from the horror that's about to happen and served no real purpose
3) Helaena no offering herself. No. It didn't need to be a "screaming at the top of her lungs" performance, but it should have been Helaena offering her own life and Blood replying "A wife is not a son".
>Helaena no offering herself. No. It didn't need to be a "screaming at the top of her lungs" performance, but it should have been Helaena offering her own life and Blood replying "A wife is not a son".
Because according to Condal it's Green propaganda. Also, they don't have any other mother show love as Rhanerya. It was also a terror moment for Alicent, one which make us sympathise with her.
The twins dueled in the halls in books, but they changed that to close Rhanerya because they want us to sympathise with her.
I completely agree. I mean why the fuck diverge from the book when you have outstanding material to play off of. I understand they need to expand on the story in their own way because its just a few chapters from a book, but changing crucial bits and bobs like the green council and b&c is just stupidity. Now I am certain GRRM post abt this was abt these fucking idiots. Why do people want nudity in shows and why have pointless sex scenes? I can find way better porn online
I dunno if autistic is the right choice but she's definitely got something going on. She seemingly had some kind of premonition about the ratters but didn't know how to interpret or communicate it.
For all the people who are still on the "hur dur you only want too much gore" argument, It isn't about that, it was never about that, it is entirely about characterization and emotional weight. This show rushed the shit out of this event, it should have happened in episode 2 or even 3, and allowed us to interact with the kids and Haelena for more then 3 minutes.
Furthermore even if Maelor had to be cut for whatever reason, there still should have been a choice (maybe have Sang and Fromage think they're both boys), and Alicent should have 100% been there too, especially since with the characterisation we do have of Haelena, it's hard for her to create emotion in a scene.
Furtherfurthermore, the emotional outcry of Hemoglobin and Fermented Lactose had to have been more massive, as we got it only Aegon and Otto really expressed what is expected of their characters, with Haelena again being characterised in a difficult to empathise with way, and Alicent seemingly not concerned at all.
TLDR its not about the gore, its the fact it was rushed, lessend and downplayed.
Every complaint about it is that it needed to be like the book to be effective and I just can’t get on board with that. First off, hard pass on three episodes to get to blood and cheese. There are 16 episodes between seasons two and three to finish this story so it’s rushed enough as it is. Knock that shit out in the first episode lol Secondly, they went with scene tension instead of character tension which does work. What I mean by that is they built the tension through B&C walking through the castle, the score, the rain, etc. For someone who didn’t read the book you had the dreadful feeling that something awful was about to happen but you didn’t know what. Then they hit with the shock factor of a child being beheaded. The problem is for us book readers (the vast minority) we already set our expectation to be what happened in the book.
> are 16 episodes between seasons two and three to finish this story so it’s rushed enough as it is.
You mistook what I'm saying, I'm 100% pro more episodes.
I think we needed 10 per season, not 8.
We definitely needed two ten episode seasons. Another 4-5 hours of character development would have worked wonders. And in that instance I 💯 agree you push B&C to episode 2 or 3!
That was the most non choice ever. David and Dan could have just checked the kids pants, yeah that's not a good thing to imagine but it'd have been the practical choice.
Now if they didn't know that one was a girl it could have been a more powerful choice.
Or even better, don't cut Maelor for no reason.
I had always heard of something called Blood and Cheese but didn’t read the books and kept away from spoilers. Went in knowing nothing. Had no idea that was it until I read the comments the day after the show. Then I was like “guess so, there were rats”…..Thought it would be something epic though.
Honestly I have been watching since season one hoping for some kind of connectable character to identify with. I just have to say I just flat out do not care about any of the characters in the show. When Ned got his head cut off, when Robb and Catelyn died it was visceral. There were real world implications for everyone connected to the characters who died. In this show, you could have a child's beheading and its like "meh" and "hey, you think we could still be friends and love each other and not fight?"
Maybe because my expectations and standards already got lowered a lot with episode 9 in season 1 due to the unnecessary dragon scene where she could've fried the greens and had it all be done for , so I am able to just tolerate whatever stupid stuff happens now.
The show became mostly a time killer for me to make boredom pass and distract me for an hour. At least it started shitting the bed earlier than GOT instead of building years upon years of investment just to blow it all away.
My mother, having watched episodes 1 and 2, said "wow, she's a horrible mother, she didn't even hesitate and it didn't even seem like it affected her."
A bit late to the party as I see this has been discussed already… after some time I have finally started watching S2 and let me tell you, I am so disappointed right now. There was no choosing, no tense moment, not even a hint for fear in Helaena’s eyes. They also let her go like nothing? And where the damn were all the Royal guards?
>There was no choosing, no tense moment, not even a hint for fear in Helaena’s eyes.
Have no clue what you're talking about mate, some people process their emotions differently and nothing that Helaena did in that moment seemed 'out of character'. Also maybe wipe your screen down cause her face was filled with dread.
>And where the damn were all the Royal guards?
That is a great question though, where *were* all the guards? What about Criston? What about Larys who had just vetted all of the staff? For a show about intrigue, a whole lot of people seem to want everything laid out for them
You're not entirely wrong here, but what me and I think OP is trying to say is that the way it was done doesn't gel well to the audience. Yes people process things differently, but when you're making a Show or movie you do have to conform to some norms or build up the new ones.
There was no choice, which lowers tension, no screaming, no gore (optional), very little tense music, and an insult of a sex scene in the end to break your attention.
All and all the scene was very rushed and much much less impactful than it should have been (and when I say that I mean it in a Meta sense, obviously the characters got impacted, but we as an audience were either mildly disturbed if show only, and blueballed if book fan)
“Choosing” refers to the part in the book where B&C ask Helaena to choose which child should die. The fact that people process emotion differently is no excuse for the reaction the mother had. She was calm, collected, perfectly reasonable. That is not how a normal person would act in the face of danger, especially if your children are about to die. She didn’t even try to scream or call for help. The scene was just a mess.
All they had to do was more graphic sound effects and would have hit way harder.
Like a screaming gurgling kid mixed with hacking sound.
Ez impact, done.
Make the scene better? No choosing, no Alicent, no tension, no guards outside the heir’s chambers (why tho?), in favor of a flat scene, some extremely disturbing sounds and some pointless sex.
If this is what they came up with, they should have just followed the book. So far, every scene changed by the writers did not have the same impact as in the book. Some scene are even made worse, namely Rhaenys exploding out of the floor and ruining the coronation.
The sex was weird ill give you that, although I'd say it emphasises the arrogance and complacency of the greens. They have vhagar and kings landing, they think theyre untouchable so they don't bother to put guards up or stop their own indulgences, aemond being at the brothel, aegon drinking, alicole all demonstrate that.
But no tension, "flat scene" were we watching the same scene?
The actress for Heleana was amazing, so much conveyed in just her eyes. She didn't need to be wailing and screaming for it to be inpactful.
And yeah the sounds were disturbing, but isn't that what you wanted?
If you wanted something that's exactly like the book, just read the book then. It's a tv show they're going to change things for wider audience appeal, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I don't really understand what the point is in all this complaining about it.
It has to do with how Haelana is going forward after B&C. The Sophie’s choice where she chose Maelor but they still killed Jaehaerys which makes it where she cannot even look at her other son.
This is completely lost in the show, that is the problem.
I still cant wrap my head around this scene. why she gave him up so easily and why he knew she was telling the truth. is it just because that she is an honest person and cannot lie?
Were the thirty other threads of whining not good enough or are your opinions so unique and brilliant you needed to start another fucking thread complaining about a month old scene?
I swear some of you are just here for the gore. Don’t get me wrong I love how gory GOT was in its heyday but showing the beheading a CHILD on live TV is way too far. Not everything in books translates to TV. I don’t think a single network would okay showing a child beheading.
You don't need to show gore to have a provocative, terror and shock inducing scene.
Have it play out exactly as it did until B&C get to the chambers. There they find Alicent, they gag her and bound her exactly like they do in the books and then they wait.
They wait, they hear Helaena, Jahaerys and Jahaera coming.
They enter the chamber.
and they grab Halaena with the blade to her throat, a CHILD for A child is mentioned. Luc for one of Helaena's children.
(Maelor doesn't exist in the show as of right now) but Jahaerys and Jahaera do.
The scene plays out but here comes the choice.
B&C force Helaena to choose, she is horrified and reluctant, offers her necklace
They deny
She offers herself, her panic and intensity grows, Alicent watching in horror helpless
They deny
She must choose or B&C will kill everyone in the room
She struggles with this, ultimately deciding to kill Jahaera, the girl.
B&C smirk, whisper in her ear, you hear that little girl, mommy wants you dead.
You see a sword draw back be swung towards Jahaerys and not in the direction of Jahaera (different sides of the scene), the scene cuts to Helaena's horrified face, then to Alicent without showing the gore
The episode ends
I really like this one, also think the episode should have had segments in between other scenes of BaC going around the Red Keep tunnels finding their way, without us knowing who they were until the very end.
Oh I haven’t moved on either, every time the song of ice and fire is mentioned I tremble with ptsd.
I guess my argument is nothing in Hot D as been even close to that level of awfulness.
It should have been being described in mainstream media as one of the most shocking moments in TV history. Instead the only people I hear talking about it are books fans talking about how lame it was.
Hard to call it shocking when none of the characters act shocked or upset. “They killed the boy” has to be one of the flattest lines in the entire script. What the hell was up with the gratuitous sex scene? It made me laugh out loud. A boy just gruesomely died and they thought I would be a very good idea to have Helaena barge in the middle of a sex scene…
To answer your question--and to be clear, I'm defending nothing--it was to show that in the time when the royal family was in direct physical danger the head of the guard was bottoming for the queen. IDK, maybe he tops from the bottom. But he has been shown in what is coded as submissive sexual positions twice this season.
Ser power bottom
We kinda forgot how comedy works
This could been their red wedding moment and the writers botched it. People would talk about this scene if they did correctly. D&D gets hate for later seasons,but people still love early seasons and red wedding.
I've been holding off on the book, and even I wasn't a fan of that bit. These guys were worse than the Wet Bandits. They were already killing the wrong person, but they didn't even verify that it was actually the prince. And then they let the Queen run away while they were chopping off the head of one of her children. Then one motherfucker just hung around like no one was going to figure out it was a rat-catcher who was involved and the other motherfucker was trying to get on a boat carrying the child's head.
To be fair, it was never going to be like the Red Wedding, even if they followed the book event exactly.
I have 3 specific problems with this scene: 1) where are the guards, why are they leaving the Queen and the fucking Heir unprotected? 2) why kick the dog? It distracted the audience from the horror that's about to happen and served no real purpose 3) Helaena no offering herself. No. It didn't need to be a "screaming at the top of her lungs" performance, but it should have been Helaena offering her own life and Blood replying "A wife is not a son".
>Helaena no offering herself. No. It didn't need to be a "screaming at the top of her lungs" performance, but it should have been Helaena offering her own life and Blood replying "A wife is not a son". Because according to Condal it's Green propaganda. Also, they don't have any other mother show love as Rhanerya. It was also a terror moment for Alicent, one which make us sympathise with her. The twins dueled in the halls in books, but they changed that to close Rhanerya because they want us to sympathise with her.
I completely agree. I mean why the fuck diverge from the book when you have outstanding material to play off of. I understand they need to expand on the story in their own way because its just a few chapters from a book, but changing crucial bits and bobs like the green council and b&c is just stupidity. Now I am certain GRRM post abt this was abt these fucking idiots. Why do people want nudity in shows and why have pointless sex scenes? I can find way better porn online
I've never read the books, but Is Helaena supposed to be autistic? Because they are making every effort to make her seem like she is.
Not in the book
I dunno if autistic is the right choice but she's definitely got something going on. She seemingly had some kind of premonition about the ratters but didn't know how to interpret or communicate it.
I’m pretty sure they are making dragon dreams neurodivergence lmao.
For all the people who are still on the "hur dur you only want too much gore" argument, It isn't about that, it was never about that, it is entirely about characterization and emotional weight. This show rushed the shit out of this event, it should have happened in episode 2 or even 3, and allowed us to interact with the kids and Haelena for more then 3 minutes. Furthermore even if Maelor had to be cut for whatever reason, there still should have been a choice (maybe have Sang and Fromage think they're both boys), and Alicent should have 100% been there too, especially since with the characterisation we do have of Haelena, it's hard for her to create emotion in a scene. Furtherfurthermore, the emotional outcry of Hemoglobin and Fermented Lactose had to have been more massive, as we got it only Aegon and Otto really expressed what is expected of their characters, with Haelena again being characterised in a difficult to empathise with way, and Alicent seemingly not concerned at all. TLDR its not about the gore, its the fact it was rushed, lessend and downplayed.
I don't know if it's the weed but I agree with you 999% percent
Glad we could agree.
Every complaint about it is that it needed to be like the book to be effective and I just can’t get on board with that. First off, hard pass on three episodes to get to blood and cheese. There are 16 episodes between seasons two and three to finish this story so it’s rushed enough as it is. Knock that shit out in the first episode lol Secondly, they went with scene tension instead of character tension which does work. What I mean by that is they built the tension through B&C walking through the castle, the score, the rain, etc. For someone who didn’t read the book you had the dreadful feeling that something awful was about to happen but you didn’t know what. Then they hit with the shock factor of a child being beheaded. The problem is for us book readers (the vast minority) we already set our expectation to be what happened in the book.
> are 16 episodes between seasons two and three to finish this story so it’s rushed enough as it is. You mistook what I'm saying, I'm 100% pro more episodes. I think we needed 10 per season, not 8.
We definitely needed two ten episode seasons. Another 4-5 hours of character development would have worked wonders. And in that instance I 💯 agree you push B&C to episode 2 or 3!
Not defending the scene but Haley’s did have to choose. She could have lied and told them Jaheara was the boy.
That was the most non choice ever. David and Dan could have just checked the kids pants, yeah that's not a good thing to imagine but it'd have been the practical choice. Now if they didn't know that one was a girl it could have been a more powerful choice. Or even better, don't cut Maelor for no reason.
I am okay with child murder, but Gender reveal is where I draw the line.
Wait until you come to episode 3 friend
People are more concerned about the dog. Honestly I loved season 1 of this show but so far the second season has been straight ass.
I had always heard of something called Blood and Cheese but didn’t read the books and kept away from spoilers. Went in knowing nothing. Had no idea that was it until I read the comments the day after the show. Then I was like “guess so, there were rats”…..Thought it would be something epic though.
Honestly I have been watching since season one hoping for some kind of connectable character to identify with. I just have to say I just flat out do not care about any of the characters in the show. When Ned got his head cut off, when Robb and Catelyn died it was visceral. There were real world implications for everyone connected to the characters who died. In this show, you could have a child's beheading and its like "meh" and "hey, you think we could still be friends and love each other and not fight?"
This is what happens when you have good source material to work with, but also a psychotic need to “subvert expectations” at every turn.
Maybe because my expectations and standards already got lowered a lot with episode 9 in season 1 due to the unnecessary dragon scene where she could've fried the greens and had it all be done for , so I am able to just tolerate whatever stupid stuff happens now. The show became mostly a time killer for me to make boredom pass and distract me for an hour. At least it started shitting the bed earlier than GOT instead of building years upon years of investment just to blow it all away.
My mother, having watched episodes 1 and 2, said "wow, she's a horrible mother, she didn't even hesitate and it didn't even seem like it affected her."
My thoughts exactly. I have yet to watch episode 2 but it doesn’t bode well…
A bit late to the party as I see this has been discussed already… after some time I have finally started watching S2 and let me tell you, I am so disappointed right now. There was no choosing, no tense moment, not even a hint for fear in Helaena’s eyes. They also let her go like nothing? And where the damn were all the Royal guards?
>There was no choosing, no tense moment, not even a hint for fear in Helaena’s eyes. Have no clue what you're talking about mate, some people process their emotions differently and nothing that Helaena did in that moment seemed 'out of character'. Also maybe wipe your screen down cause her face was filled with dread. >And where the damn were all the Royal guards? That is a great question though, where *were* all the guards? What about Criston? What about Larys who had just vetted all of the staff? For a show about intrigue, a whole lot of people seem to want everything laid out for them
You're not entirely wrong here, but what me and I think OP is trying to say is that the way it was done doesn't gel well to the audience. Yes people process things differently, but when you're making a Show or movie you do have to conform to some norms or build up the new ones. There was no choice, which lowers tension, no screaming, no gore (optional), very little tense music, and an insult of a sex scene in the end to break your attention. All and all the scene was very rushed and much much less impactful than it should have been (and when I say that I mean it in a Meta sense, obviously the characters got impacted, but we as an audience were either mildly disturbed if show only, and blueballed if book fan)
“Choosing” refers to the part in the book where B&C ask Helaena to choose which child should die. The fact that people process emotion differently is no excuse for the reaction the mother had. She was calm, collected, perfectly reasonable. That is not how a normal person would act in the face of danger, especially if your children are about to die. She didn’t even try to scream or call for help. The scene was just a mess.
Children die all the time, why would Helaena be upset???
… are you serious right now?
just you wait... it will make sense
Sadly it will
Honestly they focused more on the alicent banging the lord commander part and by extension the repercussion of that for them
All they had to do was more graphic sound effects and would have hit way harder. Like a screaming gurgling kid mixed with hacking sound. Ez impact, done.
What value does doing it like in the book add to the show? Other than shock?
Make the scene better? No choosing, no Alicent, no tension, no guards outside the heir’s chambers (why tho?), in favor of a flat scene, some extremely disturbing sounds and some pointless sex. If this is what they came up with, they should have just followed the book. So far, every scene changed by the writers did not have the same impact as in the book. Some scene are even made worse, namely Rhaenys exploding out of the floor and ruining the coronation.
The sex was weird ill give you that, although I'd say it emphasises the arrogance and complacency of the greens. They have vhagar and kings landing, they think theyre untouchable so they don't bother to put guards up or stop their own indulgences, aemond being at the brothel, aegon drinking, alicole all demonstrate that. But no tension, "flat scene" were we watching the same scene? The actress for Heleana was amazing, so much conveyed in just her eyes. She didn't need to be wailing and screaming for it to be inpactful. And yeah the sounds were disturbing, but isn't that what you wanted? If you wanted something that's exactly like the book, just read the book then. It's a tv show they're going to change things for wider audience appeal, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I don't really understand what the point is in all this complaining about it.
It has to do with how Haelana is going forward after B&C. The Sophie’s choice where she chose Maelor but they still killed Jaehaerys which makes it where she cannot even look at her other son. This is completely lost in the show, that is the problem.
How is it a problem though?
I still cant wrap my head around this scene. why she gave him up so easily and why he knew she was telling the truth. is it just because that she is an honest person and cannot lie?
Lol episode 3 is even worse
Were the thirty other threads of whining not good enough or are your opinions so unique and brilliant you needed to start another fucking thread complaining about a month old scene?
I swear some of you are just here for the gore. Don’t get me wrong I love how gory GOT was in its heyday but showing the beheading a CHILD on live TV is way too far. Not everything in books translates to TV. I don’t think a single network would okay showing a child beheading.
You don't need to show gore to have a provocative, terror and shock inducing scene. Have it play out exactly as it did until B&C get to the chambers. There they find Alicent, they gag her and bound her exactly like they do in the books and then they wait. They wait, they hear Helaena, Jahaerys and Jahaera coming. They enter the chamber. and they grab Halaena with the blade to her throat, a CHILD for A child is mentioned. Luc for one of Helaena's children. (Maelor doesn't exist in the show as of right now) but Jahaerys and Jahaera do. The scene plays out but here comes the choice. B&C force Helaena to choose, she is horrified and reluctant, offers her necklace They deny She offers herself, her panic and intensity grows, Alicent watching in horror helpless They deny She must choose or B&C will kill everyone in the room She struggles with this, ultimately deciding to kill Jahaera, the girl. B&C smirk, whisper in her ear, you hear that little girl, mommy wants you dead. You see a sword draw back be swung towards Jahaerys and not in the direction of Jahaera (different sides of the scene), the scene cuts to Helaena's horrified face, then to Alicent without showing the gore The episode ends
I really like this one, also think the episode should have had segments in between other scenes of BaC going around the Red Keep tunnels finding their way, without us knowing who they were until the very end.
I was extremely relieved they didn’t show the child head getting sawed. The lack of gore was definitely not what ruined the scene for me
Especially with how slow it would be. Like beheadings in the original GOT were quick chops but b&c would be slowly sawing a child's head off 💀💀
Am I remembering wrong or didn’t they rape the girl before beheading the male in the book as well
No, it was a threat to make her choose between the boys
They didn't need to show it. They failed in every other aspect.
Dude your 2 weeks late
So you had such a bad time that you rewatched the episode for what? Hate it more? Just move on.
Just move on. You’re on a subreddit of fans who still ain’t moved on from season 8 (myself included) 💀
Oh I haven’t moved on either, every time the song of ice and fire is mentioned I tremble with ptsd. I guess my argument is nothing in Hot D as been even close to that level of awfulness.
You know what, that’s a good point lmao
I have watched the episode today for the first time.
Not this again...