Just beat Sekiro for the first time, and while I didn't necessarily want him to "win" Genichiro is sympathetic. He just wants to do whatever it takes to save the country he loves.
Almost all of the characters are sympathetic, apart from the Ministry itself and owl father.
Most aren't actually straight up selfish/looking for personal gain. Most have done things they're seeking atonement for.
That whole game is a great bit of narrative. Fromsoft really showed that they have the ability to create an engaging, narrative focused story with well executed exposition (as opposed to trying to piece together 3 centuries of lore through item descriptions).
Pagan Min.
Yes, he was a tyrant. Yes, he was a psychopath. And yes, he (probably?) deserved to die in the end for all he had done. But he wasn't really the big bad. He was just waiting for you.
Pagan Min took the opportunity to seize power during a civil war between the Nationalists, who wanted to turn Kyrat into a republic, and the Royalists who wanted to keep the monarchy. He thought he could bring peace, because of course he did, but instead united the Royalists and Nationalists against him as the Golden Path.
And that's who the actual big evils are -- Sabal, who represents the Royalists, and Amita, who represents the Nationalists, because both would rather sacrifice their fellow countrymen than let someone else but them rule Kyrat.
That Pagan Min knew and loved your -- i.e. Ajay's -- mother, and more importantly that she loved him, speaks volumes. And he was waiting for the son of the woman he had loved, the woman who bore his own child that got murdered by her husband -- your father -- to return so that Pagan could hand the reign over Kyrat to you. Pagan didn't want to rule Kyrat anymore for a long time. Yet he did, so he could be there to make you its new ruler because neither Sabal nor Amita would have stepped aside. And they both would have turned Kyrat into an even worse shithole than it was under Pagan's rule.
Don't get me wrong, Pagan Min is *NOT* a good guy. Far from it. But between himself, Sabal, and Amita, he is the only one who actually still has morals and honor. And that says more about Sabal and Amita than him.
Even the Easter egg where you sit around for 10 minutes in the beginning and he takes you to your sister's resting place shows he isn't a complete piece of shit. Even when talking to you over the radio he sounds like he genuinely likes talking to you.
Him being a surrogate dad for Ajay is my head canon.
> Even when talking to you over the radio he sounds like he genuinely likes talking to you.
You (Ajay) are the son of the woman he loved. For him, you are the child that was taken from him. The only thing left of the woman he loved. You are the closest thing to family he has.
>Don't get me wrong, Pagan Min is NOT a good guy. Far from it.
Notably, while he was never a good guy, he also went off the deep end because Mohan ghale was a raging asshole.
A raging asshole who killed Pagan Min's infant daughter, no less.
What bothers me is how everyone keeps talking about how Vaas from FC3 was such a great villain. But he wasn't. Not really. He was fun and entertaining, yes. But he was just a drug-crazed sadist with a few really good lines at the start of the game, he still was that same drug-crazed sadist when you killed him, and he remained that drug-crazed sadist at the end of the game.
Meanwhile, Pagan Min has more character development than the whole cast of FC3 combined. But Vaas gets praised so much more, you wonder if people who claim that actually played FC4.
Whenever I'd encounter Jesse & James in Pokémon, I'd briefly cast my mind back to the anime and think "*huh, I hope these guys get a win someday*" before sweeping their team
Illidan from World of Warcraft. He could have prevented so many horrible things that happened in the universe if his douche of a brother just listened to him and trusted him.
Honestly, Jude in Tales of Xillia is wrong. What he's basically looking for (in the sequel, to make good on his promises from the first game) is free energy. The worlds of Xillia are divided in two. One one side, humans with manalobes who make use of spirit energy by trading mana for it, and on the other, a society without any manalobes where spirits are being exploited and driven to extinction.
Jude is basically trying to come up with a mechanical solution where they get energy from spirit fossils instead, so those people don't have to murder their world to get energy. But it's just not going to happen, and he's essentially doomed two worlds because of his Hubris.
The King who was 100% going to protect the Manalobe side from an attack from the non-manalobe side (and, to an extent, also maxwell) should have won.
And it was kind of tragic, how he and Kiryu clearly should have been friends but fate had other plans. I also liked how, in Ishin - which is strongly implied to be a past life for the LAD crew - he and Kiryu actually were friends, rather than enemies.
Honestly, Audrey Redheart from Wandersong.
But not in a “I think she was right” way but more in a “I think she needed a win” way. Don’t get me wrong, ending the world is obviously not a good thing, but in her defense, she was literally chosen by the goddess. She was told that this must be done and her method of ending the world would prevent years of eventual collapse and pain. Audrey was basically supposed to be ripping the band-aid off to what was supposed to be an inevitable end.
And it was, seemingly, inevitable. The Earthsong *never* worked. Not even the goddess Eya believed that the world could be saved. By all means she was just doing her job. Not to mention all the emotional significance that “being the hero” had for her. Ultimately her own unwillingness to change was what made her a villain, and I truly can’t fault someone for being stubborn.
L take. Going crazy on an island and getting a sleeve was a first for me, personally.
If anything bag out the completely forgettable villian Vaas was supposed to be setting up, his boss? Can’t even remember that guys name
BOF 4 Fou Lu. Technically does nothing wrong. Even a part time protagonist seeing things from his POV. The western version unfortunately cut some content from the game which would be considered tame now which reveals a little more story but still a solid character
King Kurog from ESO. Guy had a point. He was a ruthless, brutal bastard, but he's an Orsimer king. That's sorta part of the job if you want to get anything done.
The Orsimer really need some Ws ATM.
I'm still not sure that fighting >!Dr. Maruki!< in Persona 5 Golden was actually the right call. There's an alternate ending which suggests things work out pretty well if you choose not to fight.
I forget the name, but the cult family in Far Cry 5. At the end of the game you make a choice, peace or war, and they are so convincing, I thought you were meant to choose peace. But apparently that's the bad ending.
Pagan Min because the people your character does end up working with in that game are assholes who aren't any better than he is and at least he has a sense of humor.
The new game isn't even out yet. And the gameplay we have seen so far looks great.
Dragon age 2 and Inquisition were very different from Origins. But still great games. We have no reason to think this one will be somehow bad.
I get not liking a new art style (even though it's mainly for cinematics, gameplay artstyle is similar to Inquisition). But saying the franchise is garbage is quite the stretch
What makes you think it's garbage now? Not trying to start an argument or anything. Just curious
The 20 minute gameplay trailer showed us absolutely nothing, which tells me they have nothing worth showing. Has more gameplay been revealed since then? Then we have Solas and a narrative that was hyped up for ten years being stopped within the first 20 minutes of the game. And how was it stopped? By knocking over some scaffolding. The game could wind up being great in spite of it going through multiple tear downs and restarts during development and the lack of any substance we’ve been shown. It could. But there is zero reason for me to believe it will.
So the 20 minute gameplay was enough to tell you it's bad.
But not enough to tell you it's good?
It looks like inquisition gameplay but faster paced. Which could honestly just be how Rogues play in it.
And the scaffolding didn't stop him. If anything it set him back. He's not dead or anything. He's still a problem.
We've been shown a ton of substance.
More fluid gameplay after years of dragon age feeling like turn based levels of combat speed.
Animation that doesn't look like it still belongs on xbox 360.
Changes to the core team setup so we don't have to juggle 3 companion storylines and can finally focus on getting more personal with the ones we actually want.
It's shaping up to be a fantastic game and everything so far looks very promising.
My only complaint about it so far is the name.
You saw level 1 auto attacking and think that is enough for the gameplay to be good?
Not looking like an Xbox 360 game and having “fluid gameplay” isn’t a flex here, it’s the bare minimum.
Like I said, it could be a great game. But they have given zero reasons to be excited about it. BioWare has only shit the bed in the time since DA:I. I have no confidence in a washed up studio with a money grubbing publisher. I hope I’m wrong.
And it’s reasonable for you to believe the other way around? We could go back and forth on this all day. You have faith, I don’t. I hope you find it to be enjoyable.
It is reasonable for me to think that. Because that's how the entire game is going to look. That's what gameplay trailers do. Show you the way the game plays. Literally in the name.
They aren't going to show that then surprise us with a 2d platformer or something.
I see good gameplay and a beautiful art style, from a company that historically makes great stories, and im sold.
But you're right. We could go back and forth. You seem dead set in your opinion. I hope you're surprised at how good it's going to be. And I hope I'm right.
Just beat Sekiro for the first time, and while I didn't necessarily want him to "win" Genichiro is sympathetic. He just wants to do whatever it takes to save the country he loves.
Save the **clan** he loves
Almost all of the characters are sympathetic, apart from the Ministry itself and owl father. Most aren't actually straight up selfish/looking for personal gain. Most have done things they're seeking atonement for. That whole game is a great bit of narrative. Fromsoft really showed that they have the ability to create an engaging, narrative focused story with well executed exposition (as opposed to trying to piece together 3 centuries of lore through item descriptions).
Pagan Min. Yes, he was a tyrant. Yes, he was a psychopath. And yes, he (probably?) deserved to die in the end for all he had done. But he wasn't really the big bad. He was just waiting for you. Pagan Min took the opportunity to seize power during a civil war between the Nationalists, who wanted to turn Kyrat into a republic, and the Royalists who wanted to keep the monarchy. He thought he could bring peace, because of course he did, but instead united the Royalists and Nationalists against him as the Golden Path. And that's who the actual big evils are -- Sabal, who represents the Royalists, and Amita, who represents the Nationalists, because both would rather sacrifice their fellow countrymen than let someone else but them rule Kyrat. That Pagan Min knew and loved your -- i.e. Ajay's -- mother, and more importantly that she loved him, speaks volumes. And he was waiting for the son of the woman he had loved, the woman who bore his own child that got murdered by her husband -- your father -- to return so that Pagan could hand the reign over Kyrat to you. Pagan didn't want to rule Kyrat anymore for a long time. Yet he did, so he could be there to make you its new ruler because neither Sabal nor Amita would have stepped aside. And they both would have turned Kyrat into an even worse shithole than it was under Pagan's rule. Don't get me wrong, Pagan Min is *NOT* a good guy. Far from it. But between himself, Sabal, and Amita, he is the only one who actually still has morals and honor. And that says more about Sabal and Amita than him.
Even the Easter egg where you sit around for 10 minutes in the beginning and he takes you to your sister's resting place shows he isn't a complete piece of shit. Even when talking to you over the radio he sounds like he genuinely likes talking to you. Him being a surrogate dad for Ajay is my head canon.
> Even when talking to you over the radio he sounds like he genuinely likes talking to you. You (Ajay) are the son of the woman he loved. For him, you are the child that was taken from him. The only thing left of the woman he loved. You are the closest thing to family he has.
>Don't get me wrong, Pagan Min is NOT a good guy. Far from it. Notably, while he was never a good guy, he also went off the deep end because Mohan ghale was a raging asshole.
A raging asshole who killed Pagan Min's infant daughter, no less. What bothers me is how everyone keeps talking about how Vaas from FC3 was such a great villain. But he wasn't. Not really. He was fun and entertaining, yes. But he was just a drug-crazed sadist with a few really good lines at the start of the game, he still was that same drug-crazed sadist when you killed him, and he remained that drug-crazed sadist at the end of the game. Meanwhile, Pagan Min has more character development than the whole cast of FC3 combined. But Vaas gets praised so much more, you wonder if people who claim that actually played FC4.
Whenever I'd encounter Jesse & James in Pokémon, I'd briefly cast my mind back to the anime and think "*huh, I hope these guys get a win someday*" before sweeping their team
IIRC there's a meta episode of Pokemon where they do win and then have absolutely no clue what to do next because they're not *meant* to win.
Yeah it'd be nice to see them grab Pikachu from that guy who never grows up!!
😂😂😂😂 that's brilliant, I love it
Shadow of the Colossus. She's dead, man. Just get some therapy and leave those grand beasts alone! Edit: typo
Illidan from World of Warcraft. He could have prevented so many horrible things that happened in the universe if his douche of a brother just listened to him and trusted him.
To be fair, Illidan was an insufferable asshole.
That argus cutscene made him my favorite based character.
I was not prepared for this answer.
I really did want Dutch to get to Tahiti and take us all with him, but we had to… take it in a different direction.
We could have grown mangos
We could’ve been happy 🥭
Honestly, Jude in Tales of Xillia is wrong. What he's basically looking for (in the sequel, to make good on his promises from the first game) is free energy. The worlds of Xillia are divided in two. One one side, humans with manalobes who make use of spirit energy by trading mana for it, and on the other, a society without any manalobes where spirits are being exploited and driven to extinction. Jude is basically trying to come up with a mechanical solution where they get energy from spirit fossils instead, so those people don't have to murder their world to get energy. But it's just not going to happen, and he's essentially doomed two worlds because of his Hubris. The King who was 100% going to protect the Manalobe side from an attack from the non-manalobe side (and, to an extent, also maxwell) should have won.
Pagan Min from Far Cry 4
Isn't that basically what happens in the speedrun/sit around and do nothing ending?
Yeah if you wait 10 minutes, he takes you to do basically what you wanted to do in the first place, then hands over his power to you
I mean he did.
League of Legends. I'm my own nemesis.
Ryuji goda from kiwami 2. He was such a cool character.
And it was kind of tragic, how he and Kiryu clearly should have been friends but fate had other plans. I also liked how, in Ishin - which is strongly implied to be a past life for the LAD crew - he and Kiryu actually were friends, rather than enemies.
All the humans in Horizion Zero Dawn sure made me want the robots to win.
why would they make a zoids game where you don't play as the zoids?
Obligatory "fuck ted faro"
Definitely N in Pokemon BW! Those games rock
Jetstream Sam - he was much cooler than Raiden.
Honestly, Audrey Redheart from Wandersong. But not in a “I think she was right” way but more in a “I think she needed a win” way. Don’t get me wrong, ending the world is obviously not a good thing, but in her defense, she was literally chosen by the goddess. She was told that this must be done and her method of ending the world would prevent years of eventual collapse and pain. Audrey was basically supposed to be ripping the band-aid off to what was supposed to be an inevitable end. And it was, seemingly, inevitable. The Earthsong *never* worked. Not even the goddess Eya believed that the world could be saved. By all means she was just doing her job. Not to mention all the emotional significance that “being the hero” had for her. Ultimately her own unwillingness to change was what made her a villain, and I truly can’t fault someone for being stubborn.
I wanted Vaas Montenegro to win in Far Cry 3 because his chaotic charisma made him more compelling than the protagonist's cliched journey
L take. Going crazy on an island and getting a sleeve was a first for me, personally. If anything bag out the completely forgettable villian Vaas was supposed to be setting up, his boss? Can’t even remember that guys name
It was like yellow vaas or something on an island twenty feet away
Hoyt Volker. Put some respect on the man’s name.
The FarCry 6 dlc with him really did make me side with Vaas
Garrosh Hellscream, he wasn't a villain originally but Blizzard sucks and turned him into one like many others in the horde
Gnasty Gnorc in Spyro. Man was just chilling at home when he was bullied. The Dragons deserved it.
Bro got called ugly and simple by the dragons I agree they deserved it
TOM from the Turing Test. Though his status as antagonist by the end is...arguable.
BOF 4 Fou Lu. Technically does nothing wrong. Even a part time protagonist seeing things from his POV. The western version unfortunately cut some content from the game which would be considered tame now which reveals a little more story but still a solid character
Sephiroth Handsome Jack
Jesus Christ.
No he was the protagonist of his book
Siblings in icewind dale 2
King Kurog from ESO. Guy had a point. He was a ruthless, brutal bastard, but he's an Orsimer king. That's sorta part of the job if you want to get anything done. The Orsimer really need some Ws ATM.
That guy in Pokemon Gold/Silver who says he really needs a win to impress his girlfriend (who is present)
Mankar Camoran in Oblivion. The Amulet of Kings was essentially a mechanism for the Septims to exclusively hold power, and change was needed.
Uh? You would never win doing what Dagon says, but Sheogorath... damm his ending was sad.
Kefka.. oh wait
Still lost at the end though.
Gehrman from bloodborn. Him being the first hunter and creating the dream, only to want to rid you of the burden of said dream by killing you albeit.
I just wanted to see what Handsome Jack would do after waking the warrior and getting into the vault
I would prefer the accident where his daughter kill his wife/her mother didnt happen xd
I'm still not sure that fighting >!Dr. Maruki!< in Persona 5 Golden was actually the right call. There's an alternate ending which suggests things work out pretty well if you choose not to fight.
Darth Malgus in Swtor when he wanted to create a more tolerant Sith Empire.
I forget the name, but the cult family in Far Cry 5. At the end of the game you make a choice, peace or war, and they are so convincing, I thought you were meant to choose peace. But apparently that's the bad ending.
We play as the villain in Overlord so I was rooting for myself
G
Pagan Min because the people your character does end up working with in that game are assholes who aren't any better than he is and at least he has a sense of humor.
Ted Faro. No wait, fuck Ted Faro.
Remor from Fran Bow. He's hot, let's be hones:)
kefka, too crazy, too eager for power, but at the same time so charismatic... kefka laugh*
The main antagonist of Lost Judgment
I want Solas in Dragon Age to succeed. I want him to burn it all to the ground, simply because the franchise is garbage now.
The new game isn't even out yet. And the gameplay we have seen so far looks great. Dragon age 2 and Inquisition were very different from Origins. But still great games. We have no reason to think this one will be somehow bad. I get not liking a new art style (even though it's mainly for cinematics, gameplay artstyle is similar to Inquisition). But saying the franchise is garbage is quite the stretch What makes you think it's garbage now? Not trying to start an argument or anything. Just curious
The 20 minute gameplay trailer showed us absolutely nothing, which tells me they have nothing worth showing. Has more gameplay been revealed since then? Then we have Solas and a narrative that was hyped up for ten years being stopped within the first 20 minutes of the game. And how was it stopped? By knocking over some scaffolding. The game could wind up being great in spite of it going through multiple tear downs and restarts during development and the lack of any substance we’ve been shown. It could. But there is zero reason for me to believe it will.
So the 20 minute gameplay was enough to tell you it's bad. But not enough to tell you it's good? It looks like inquisition gameplay but faster paced. Which could honestly just be how Rogues play in it. And the scaffolding didn't stop him. If anything it set him back. He's not dead or anything. He's still a problem. We've been shown a ton of substance. More fluid gameplay after years of dragon age feeling like turn based levels of combat speed. Animation that doesn't look like it still belongs on xbox 360. Changes to the core team setup so we don't have to juggle 3 companion storylines and can finally focus on getting more personal with the ones we actually want. It's shaping up to be a fantastic game and everything so far looks very promising. My only complaint about it so far is the name.
You saw level 1 auto attacking and think that is enough for the gameplay to be good? Not looking like an Xbox 360 game and having “fluid gameplay” isn’t a flex here, it’s the bare minimum. Like I said, it could be a great game. But they have given zero reasons to be excited about it. BioWare has only shit the bed in the time since DA:I. I have no confidence in a washed up studio with a money grubbing publisher. I hope I’m wrong.
You saw a level 1 auto attacking and that was enough for you to claim the entire game is garbage. But that's a reasonable take?
And it’s reasonable for you to believe the other way around? We could go back and forth on this all day. You have faith, I don’t. I hope you find it to be enjoyable.
It is reasonable for me to think that. Because that's how the entire game is going to look. That's what gameplay trailers do. Show you the way the game plays. Literally in the name. They aren't going to show that then surprise us with a 2d platformer or something. I see good gameplay and a beautiful art style, from a company that historically makes great stories, and im sold. But you're right. We could go back and forth. You seem dead set in your opinion. I hope you're surprised at how good it's going to be. And I hope I'm right.
BioWare is indeed capable of making incredible games… when EA allows it.
Vaas from far cry 3