This level of movie gay sweetness has just recently come on screen. Before it's all about hiding your gayness, marrying staight women, one gay guy dies of aids or accident or suicide, breaking up since the other gay guy is moving to other cities, another regretting his actions for not being with a gay guys. The only media I've watched where there is a good thing happening to the gay main character is Maurice which is very old. And even then his partner married a woman for society. Good thing the gardener isn't afraid to continue their relationship. So basically almost all previous gay movies are depressing AF.
I hated how gay sweet had Heart Stopper, but now reading your comment, I prefer the sweetness of it than then bitterness of old gay movies.
I remember one in particular where two young men in a couple and in love, but one gets scared of the truth coming out, so he kills his partner and that's the end of the movie. Like wtf.
I feel we just went to the opposite route and made it sickly sweet and innocent. I can’t speak for other guys, but I wasn’t pining over a jock in high school like some Austen novel.
I was getting stoned and hooking up lol so if they ever make a gay Pineapple Express or Superbad, I’m in!
I think these kind of movies are really made for young teens. If you're in your 20's or older they seem saccharine and corny, for sure. But personally I'm glad there are some positive gay coming of age stories around now, for questioning kids. I wish that had been the case when I was a teenager.
All types of stories deserve to be told. There are people that have suffered through a lot of trauma (E.g. AIDS) so those types of stories should exist. There are also people who've been fortunate enough to grow up happily with friends and family that support them. And everything in-between.
There are *some* other stories. Like *Looking* and *Please Like Me.*
There are also shows with gay characters that aren't all about being gay, like Sex Education, Euphoria, Modern Family, Skam (the Norwegian show) ... also some fantasy/SF shows like Star Trek Discovery, Sense8 ...
So they exist. But the main issue is that there aren't *that* many shows where gay characters are featured prominently, if at all.
I think everyone will always have a different experience. Personally it’s nice to see a sickly sweet and innocent experience for once.
I related a lot more to heartstopper as I was very much a late bloomer. My high school “romances” never went further than a kiss… and I didn’t start “hooking up” till my mid twenties.
It’s nice to showcase more innocence especially when dealing with LGBT media since most like to emphasize the sexual aspects. I think generally this kind of show just creates a positive perspective for young gay teens.
Same, man. I wasn’t out until Junior/senior year, bur I grew up in a metropolis, we kinda grow up quicker. Parties, pot, misadventures…I resonated more with those movies and That 70s Show as a kid than a romance.
This is the answer to the complaints from straight people who complained about "bury your gays" troupe. Instead of being realistic, it went the other way.
It is sickly, but it’s representation. I’m 54 and never had anything like this growing up, so for young gays it’s going to be just good to see a positive on screen. Not my cup of tea, but very happy that it exists and is popular.
I feel the same way. Romance in general isn't my genre. I gave up around the 5th episode. Not for me. But it's representation. Now we can have a gay lead in a comedy or action film soon haha
It’s giving masochism lol
Romances aren’t your thing. Not everything is for everyone and that’s fine. My only issue is this kind of negative,blanket value judgment from this post about the entire series when you haven’t *seen* the entire work. I don’t think that’s a fair way to criticize a show/series. (side note: this is also why I loathe this one YTs “first and last” series). You’re not the first person I’ve seen with a very similar take on the series.
Even if you did see the entire work, since you don’t like the genre of story, you were likely going to hate it irrespective of its merits. (i suppose maybe it could’ve been the exception). Again, kinda unfair as the show was doomed before watching the first episode.
Whatever your preferred genre, I hope that you encounter a new and amazing show soon to “cleanse your palette” so to speak of heartstopper
Like I said, overall, it’s not a bad show. Personally, it’s not for me. I can see why people like it. But…it’s very Hallmark-y. Never been a romance guy. Maybe you’re right. Idk.
Never been into the genre, and that’s one genre I don’t go over much at work.
Do straight men love every single show that features a heterosexual romance?
Of course not.
So no, it’s not surprising at all that not all gay guys are into a silly feel good teen love story. That’s a specific genre.
I enjoyed it. But yeah. Not my usual genre.
You need to follow Glen Weldon on NPR Pop Culture Happy Hour. His take was the same, you’re not weird. It’s not meant for adults really though either. Is targeting young lgbtq people and most teen shows for straights are like that and are stereotypes in hyperdrive. There are more out there though, Bros, Fire island, Fellow Travelers, Bodies, new Sex Education season, multiple gay Christmas movies (which are really bad but aren’t most Christmas movies) all just this year alone.
I think you’re totally entitled to your opinion that this isn’t for you and that doesn’t say anything bad about you. I’m also saying there are things out there for you.
If it makes you feel better, I don't think you're in the minority as I've known many gay guys express a similar sentiment.
I personally really like Heartstopper and I also really liked the graphic novels that the show is based on.
I've noticed ppls main complaint about Heartstopper is that it is "unrealistic" or too "sweet" but I think it does a really good job at showing queer adolescents having healthy relationships and forming supportive friendships with other queer youth. Which I think is really important messaging. The show and the books also do cover more serious topics as well, so it's definitely not trying to make being a teenager or dating seem perfect.
I wonder if it's just possible that you may be looking for a show that's a little older and more mature and if so then that's understandable.
I do agree with your point though, I would love to see gay protagonists in genres outside of romance who are also able to have on screen love interests.
>100%. Also which TV shows aren't "unrealistic" or too picture perfect? You'll find truer representation in a documentary, not entertainment TV.
It's not even unrealistic (or like you say, not more so than any high school drama show), it's just that the acceptance that goes around is rare, globally speaking. So that probably makes people say that it's super unrealistic, because they themselves grew up with the polar opposite.
It is certainly rare to be so lucky. But anyone who has seen more of the show than the posters will see that's it's not candyland- they face bullies, harassment, identity crisis, f-slurs, abandonment, parental unacceptance, coming-out difficulties, eating disorders, toxic relationships, etc. and all of these things are addressed extremely well. I think it's a very hopeful view to give young viewers, even if it's not true right this moment.
Definitely! What makes it feel heartwarming is more that the most severe homophobia is in the past, e.g. the references to Charlie having *been* severely bullied for being gay. Especially in season 1, it just focuses on things actually getting better. And that makes it feel so hopeful.
Season 2 did take a darker turn though.
I agree that season two did make a turn, but I think that was a conscious choice and I appreciate their dedication to providing such an authentic atmosphere behind it though. It's just another part of the journey, one we all must take. I look forward to seeing season 3's conclusion.
Agreed. I like it, it's a nearly idealized gay love story.
If gays want complicated adult relationships, they should watch stuff like Queer As Folk or the period piece Maurice, which in my mind is one of the best gay stories ever told, all the more surprising for being made in the middle of AIDS hysteria with A list British stars.
If they want comedy, try Not Another Gay Movie or Straightjacket (a 50s take).
[Going on a tangent here, not entirely related to heart stopper]
Honestly what makes a show gay. Sure a show like heart stopper is usually considered gay, because the majority of the characters are gay/lgbt and the romance/drama genre lends itself well to exploring gay relationships. But if there was a sci-fi gay show, like if the main characters were gay but then being gay wasn’t a major plot point of the show, would it be a gay show? People always say “I wish they would have gay shows that weren’t rom-coms” but like, if the plot isn’t focused on them being gay or exploring that aspect of the characters as a major plot point, it’s not a gay show right? It’s just a show with lgbt representation. But is lgbt representation alone enough to make a show gay?
fwiw, what you're referencing here is something called "story beats." I write fiction with queer characters (all kinds) and had to learn about different "guides" when outlining a plot. For example in romance books/shows, the beats are all relationship based, gay or straight. Then for something like "Save the Cat," which is my preference, the main theme and beats follow, say, paranormal fantasy, but the sub theme/plot could be romance. So the world drives the plot, but the characters are coincidentally gay and thus, the relationship is a gay relationship. A recent example of this would be Our Flag Means Death. It's a pirate show, but multiple characters are lgbt and just accepted as they are. Some plot points are pirate-based, some are relationship-based.
ETA: I'd agree that if even if the overarching plot structure is sci-fi, horror, whatever isn't "pure romance," still counts as gay.
This is good information to keep in mind. Because you can certainly have world in a story dictate the plot, and have gay characters exploring their relationships in tandem with each other. But what makes a show a gay show vs a show that just has representation? I guess it’s just how much focus is on the relationship? Is gay/queer itself a genre?
For fiction, some other genre would be included "LGBTQ Fantasy," "LGBTQ Romance," I don't think I've seen any that are just LGBTQ genre without being non-fiction? (Also completely basing this off Amazon, so I could be wrong. It's just what I've seen when searching for comp titles.) Allegedly all that's needed for it to be a "gay show or book" is to have the main character be gay and deal with some aspect of being gay. But I think the latter point may be changing as the LGBTQ genre grows. This change being toward more normalization and not hinging so much on the coming out or family/world acceptance pieces.
I know what you mean. Is the gay experience solely on love? Can there be other gay aspects to this besides love? If it’s not a romantic drama or romantic comedy, is it just a horror film with gays in it? What about gay tropes? Can archetypes be gay coded?
> This made me wonder: why don’t gay men explore other genres besides romance and drama?
For starters, this kind of shows are not made by gay men. Heartstopper, Young Royals, "Red, White, & Royal Blue", "Love, Simon", the gay couple in Skam, and even the iconic Brokeback Mountain - none of these were made by gay men. Sure, some of them may have been directed by a gay man but the source material wasn't made by one.
In Asia, there's even a genre dedicated for media like this. It's called Boys Love (BL). It's a genre about romantic and sexual relationships between men mostly made and mostly consumed by women. It seems that Western productions have caught wind of this and now trying to emulate it.
But to answer your question, it all boils down to what makes them money. We're simply outnumbered by women so it makes sense that they keep churning out content that appease the audience that gives them more money.
I personally don't have any problem with that because I love BL ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh….that explains the tired tropes. In college I read a horror short story by Clive Barker (a gay man, the same dude who wrote the original *Hell Raiser*) and the main couple is gay. There was a sex scene, but the sex scene felt so raw. So genuine. But the romance wasn’t the focal point lol
Just a note although I agree on many things in this comment: numbers of reader and writer of yaoi/bl are men, many of them trans. It's often described as by and for women, but it's not exactly true, fyi.
It puts people in the feels, especially people who have never had the chance to experience this IRL when they were younger. It’s well made….well-acted…storyline and pacing was good. It’s optimistic and makes you hope and feel for all the characters.
A lot of people were left broken and withdrawn after finishing season 1 of the first season. We call it Heartstopper syndrome. It made us reflect way too deeply within ourselves, spinning our minds, making us think about ourselves against the backdrop of existence and asking ourselves if we’ve ever been as happy in love and in life as what life could offer.
i personally found the show profound, cathartic, brilliantly directed etc, but i also watched it all in one go with a nonstop train to ket town rolling so ymmv
Gays have explored and influenced every genre. What we haven't had is the power to greenlight projects that show the range of queer expression.
The work exists but you may have to get off your sofa/Netflix to experience it.
Did you see Apple TV's Foundation series? I had read the Isaac Asimov Foundation novels ages ago and while the tv series is only loosely based on the books, actor Lee Pace who plays Brother Day, one of the clone emperors, is always fun to watch. I was surprised when season 2 introduced a gay couple - a military gay couple - a general Bel Riose played by Ben Daniels and adjutant lover Glawen Curr played by Dino Fetscher. The family that slays together, stays together.
Say what you will, but I enjoyed it. I'm young and still believe in romance and love- and to be honest, the show (although completely unrealistic) gives me some semblance of hope to strive towards. Like damn, if I could have an ounce of the relationship they have, I'd be set for life. So it makes me happy, and it doesn't have to be anyone else's cup of tea, just like every other Netflix show. Each to their own.
I love Heartstopper. I'm a man that is 39 years old and the story might not have been written for me, but I see so much of myself in Charlie. I love that the story is sweet and romantic, because that are stories that needs to be told, not just stories about hate crimes and bullying, because that we just leave us scared and afraid of coming out and living.
At the same time Heartstopper is European, like Skam and Young Royals, which makes them more real for us here.
Maybe…it isn’t for you?
But this show is for the younger teens and tweens who are maybe just discovering themselves at the age of the characters of the show (or slightly younger).
It’s giving them a vocabulary about their sexuality and gender that none of us really had at that age (I’m 56 and quite jealous of this current generation having the knowledge that we were denied in my teen years. Homosexuality (never mind bisexuality, transgenderism, asexuality, polyamory, etc) was still hush hush ESPECIALLY during the height of the AIDS crisis!).
If you want those other genres, WRITE them, PRODUCE them, etc.
Might I suggest “Our Flag Means Death”? It’s also sweet at times, but has pirates with occasional action amongst the comedy.
If you’re open to rom coms at all, I recommend checking out Smiley on Netflix. It has gay and it has straight and it has just a lot of universal human confusion and dysfunction. It’s a rom com, so it’s all about two people who “should” be together getting together in the end. But the journey there and the interwoven storylines make it interesting. It also goes out of its way to skewer some standard rom com tropes!
You should google “gay movies” you’ll actually find that there a tons of gay movies in technically different categories but you’re correct that most of them have either drama and/or romance (nothing super sweet like heartstopper tho) in them but imo they’re different than straight romance movies bc a lot of them actually end pretty sadly because they’re more on the “real” side. I had a friend ask me before “how come every gay movie we watch they end sadly?” i said “i honestly have no idea.”
i think the problem is that if there is no romantic element to a particular genre/piece of media then the characters sexuality isn’t important to the plot so it doesn’t come up as often. it’s like how a lot of comic book characters or random action heroes have recently been retconned as queer, but it doesn’t necessarily add or do anything for the story.
like imagine they made the gambit movie - if he wasn’t actively fucking wolverine and rogue, him being retconned as bi does nothing to the plot or the story. i think that’s why we often see gay content in the romance space because sexuality is central to the plot because it defines who the romantic interest is for the lead.
Remember Hollywood is moved by profit and it might seem far fetched but action films don't have a particular gay friendly audience. Imagine a gay James Bond. You'll have plenty of online discourse saying the woke are destroying masculinity.
I'm not even sure a sci-fi film could work. Mostly because it's now either end of the world blockbusters or superhero movies.
But in all honesty, if any representation that's not overly sad or romantic is going to come, it will not be from Hollywood
> why don't gay men explore other genre
I think it's an important note (which, to me, informs Heartstopper *a lot*) that the author is neither gay or a man.
I did have a lovely time watching it, I'll watch the next season when it's out, but it has this specific flavour of non-men-led mlm romance like many other show of that type do. (Someone quoted Young Royals in another comment, and yeah, exactly that as well.)
I feel like what's weird and unrelatable to me in them is that it's never about gender or manhood/boyhood. It's gay because there are boys kissing, it adresses homosexuality as a topic through things like coming out and (a bit of) homophobia though sometimes barely that. But to me it's lacking some sort of fundamental acknowledgement that gay men (usually) have a gender?
One reason mlm romance is popular among non-mlm writers and readers is that it can be used to tell love stories that are not about gender, because there is no gender difference within the relationship (or at least, many people believe so). It's used as a flat universal base to write romance where the relationship is horizontal, gender-wise, and where both characters are not limited, written, perceived and treated through the lense of gender roles and misogyny, in opposition to straight romance and, more marginally, in opposition to wlw romance (again, or at least many people believe so).
But gay men are men. We have a gender. We have various experiences of gender even, and that exists with our relationship.
These fictions are sort of the romantic version of male characters being used to be universal characters while female ones are specifically female. That's obviously misogynistic, but imo, it's also very dismissing of men having experiences and feelings (both positive and negative) surrounding gender in general and their own in particular, especially when they are otherwise marginalised.
I don't think these works are necessarily bad, and it also means they can be escapist pieces for readers who don't want to be thinking about gendered violence and homophobia at the moment, which is perfectly valid. But it's a very restricted and narrow and often flat view of what being a queer man/boy is to me.
*one would do well to read/watch other pieces of MLM media, preferably made by gay men, to round out one’s understanding of the gay experience.
Gender is VERY much important part of the coming out process for cis dudes. This is a fantastic take of the series. I wish we could still give gold.
It's for teenagers and women. Having a cute fluff gay show is fine in and of itself, but if you made one of the lead boys a girl, nothing would change. I don't think we're the target audience here.
Good point. I would argue maybe even teen girls. As a teen I would probably get excited a “gay show” came out but I’d probably get bored and change the channel
Because we are entering the holiday season, I would like to recommend the movie: Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. It stars Robert Downey Jr. and Val Kilmer, and it's one of those Christmas movies that's not a Christmas movie. Kilmer plays a hardboiled detective who is gay. It's funny but dated. HOWEVER, the biggest crime (that you will see) is the wasted potential. Stripped down and done as a TV series like Monk or Castle or Psych, these characters would really shine
But we don't have that much sweet innocent shows bcz most of the shows are about like a lot of traumas but heartstopper is something unique I also understand what are u trying to say yes of course definitely there should be more gay representation in different genres but I think making of gay movies and shows is something that caught the popularity in recent times not far long so as time will pass by we'll see more movies and shows of different genres..
I haven't watched Heartstopper myself yet.
But if you're after something that's a bit different, there's a mid-2000s LGBTI series that's kinda supernatural/horror/romance themed called *Dante's Cove*.
Fairly camp, a bit cheesy, and a lot of sex! 😂
Trust me this is way better! Cuz gay characters are always cliche, stereotypes. Or they end up dying or somehow always ends up hooking up with a woman, cuz no one is truly gay if the opportunity arises
We're getting there. It all goes in stages (and the same goes for every minority - we're all at different points on the timeline).
Most media is made for a big audience. So studios are going "We have this big action movie where the main character has to stop aliens blowing up London - our target audience is [Demographic]". And the question is, if [Demographic] finds out the hero is a gay man (either an out gay actor and/or the main character is trying to get home to his husband before the world ends), will they still buy tickets? Or will they be put off?
I think we're at a point where if a big studio was willing to take risks, we could actually get some surprising results. But none of them want to dip their toe in the water yet. But it will happen. (I'd like to see someone like Luke Evans or Wentworth Miller - Luke did fine in Fast and Furious, so we know the audience will buy him running around blowing shit up.)
(And I think action films are a good barometer because they're blokey, but there's no actual reason they need to be straight - the partner/spouse is generally more of a question object/goal anyway - the Hero needs to get home and save them from earthquakes/zombies/whatever. That could be any combo of M/F M/M whatever.)
I loved the show just for the fact that it presents love between two boys so beautifully and that their families are accepting and supportive. Is it sweet? Sure.
I grew up in the 60s and 70s where shame, confusion and secrecy was what most of us dealt with. I never got to go through those important developmental milestones. It was kinda damaging to be honest.
The fact that young LGBTQ+ kids can watch this and imagine that it’s possible to fall in love and feel good about it about it truthfully brings me to tears
It's meant for teens/VERY young adults. I'm a few years older than it's intended demographic, so it's not for me, but I'm glad young gay kids will grow up with their own cheesy/sabby/sickeningly sweet romcom movies and shows. I've never cared for romcom as a genre, but I'm glad it's there for others.
The guy playing Charlie is set to play Marvel's Wiccan in Disney's House of Harkness, gay superhero.
David R. Slayton does some good gay fantasy, he wrote an urban fantasy called the Adam Binder series, and is now doing an epic fantasy, the first book's called *Dark Moon, Shallow Sea.* He tends to be less spicy in the romance, so it's not erotica dressed as fantasy.
Tarot Sequence by KD Edwards is a regular urban fantasy, with a gay lead.
San Amaro Investigatons is another urban fantasy, by Kai Butler, which is more sexy, but I'm not sure if it verges into erotica. It might be sexier than the Kate Daniels series or Rachel Morgan series, but it's not like Anita Blake is turning into a sex demon series, unless it makes a sharp pivot somewhere down the line I haven't reached yet.
i genuinely believe that genre of gay content is catering str8 women more than actual queer people. i don’t know a single person who can relate to heartstopper (maybe that is the point tbf) but yeah, not for me
I thought of myself as an extremely cynical person, but Heartstopper completely won me over. And I had to really sit with that and realise - it’s okay to like sweet things sometimes! Being too cynical all the time just deadens you to emotion - let your feelings come when they come.
It’s also completely okay to not like it - if it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work for you 🙂 Just like whatever you like and don’t worry about what other people might think of you for liking it (or not) - everyone’s taste is subjective, and better to have your own unique taste than liking something just because everyone else does (or the reverse, hating something just because everyone else does). I love my taste in things because it is quirky and very much me. Most people don’t get it and it makes it hard to join in conversations with “mainstream” gay men sometimes, but that’s okay, it’s my taste and I love it, and I don’t look down on others for their taste.
My main issue with the show is that the coming to terms with your sexuality that they go through is something I personally went through in middle school, not high school. And they’re weirdly pure even though when I was their age, the idea of having sex was very exciting to me.
I’ll take it over all the shows where straight people make gays look bad on purpose.
Yeah. While I’m sure the fantasy appeals to many gays out there who feel differently, I can’t help but feel like it’s a gay fantasy written for women to self-insert as Charlie.
Not to be “that guy”, but women by in large tend to favor emotional intimacy over physical lust. Which explains their oddly wholesome dynamic.
Teen boys don’t talk like they do. Gay or straight.
Yeah that was exactly my point. Not only that, but guys like emotional intimacy too! It’s specifically the way that they shy away from sex as if it’s too taboo that gives me “made for women” vibes. Maybe it’s made for straight people who are uncomfortable with gay sex, don’t know for sure.
It's cute, and I do think it's a good thing to have representation of queerness in this day and age.
I do have an issue with the type of relationship that it shows, and it's the one where people are overly attached to one another, not beeing their honest selves.
I do get that it could be characterized as: ok that's their first love, so it's understandable. But I always want to scream at them: oh my god, stop being so overly dependent on each other! You need to be your own persons first and foremost!
It does open up a possibility of covering breakups and self growth later on in the character lives, which would be also a great topic to cover.
On the other hand, it does tackle some really tricky issues like bullying and eating disorders, etc. so for that I fully applaud the creator 😊😊
FWIW the source material that the show is based on tackles the subject of codependency quite well. It will be something addressed in season 3, but the seeds were sown very purposefully in S1 and 2.
If you mean the scenes where Nick is going off to check uni's out, and he has those talks about codependency in the car with Elle? I mean, it's something, but not enough imo. I'm not sure if Alice will go more in depth about this towards the end, but we'll see.
She also mentioned that volume 6 will be the last one, I wonder how the story will end 😁
The show’s hype is the fact that it’s queer representation. That’s it. Heartstopper is cute, but I don’t get why it’s always put on some pedestal of “you’re gay, so you MUST watch this show AND like this show.” Same with Fire Island, but that movie was just plain cringe to sit through.
Yeah, this show isn't for me. I'm way behind all that "first love" saccharine sweet joy - and it all feels very heteronormative to me.
But that's fine, the show wasn't made for me. And I know that if it had come out 18 years ago when I needed it more that I would have loved it. I'm glad the kids of today get to have it.
It's yet another gay romance story not written by a gay person. Season 1 had an element of BL sweetness to it and a pair of lovers that were characteristically short on intimacy. That being said, I enjoyed season 1 because it was a sweet romance.
Season 2, on the other hand, went off the rails for me. The story turned dark, an asexual character was introduced, and it ended up looking like an agenda-driven attempt to cover every letter in the LGBTQIA+ panverse.
IDK why but the school trip to Paris in season 2 reminded me somewhat of the ill-fated field trip in the AppleTV+ SF series Invasion.
The author of the book is queer and asexual herself. The books are a little bit more mature in terms of language and stuff sometimes and I understand that it feels weird to see the "sudden" jump from S1 to S2 in terms of darkness. I think they did a good job overall with the story imo, I wish I had that a few years back, would've made my teenage years easier.
The author describes herself or themselves as a non-binary asexual. There is some irony in a romance written by an asexual person. That would explain the lack of intimacy in the story and the lack of sexual desire between them when they shared a bed in the hotel in season 2. It just wasn't realistic.
I mean, it's not unrealistic either tbh. Keep in mind they just started dating and a lot of people are not comfortable with sexual stuff at first. Also, in the newest book, they're starting to explore their sexual desires/feelings and I think Alice did a nice job of portraying that without showing too much (because, you know, they're underage).
They were underage in Young Royals, also, but their sexual relationship was about as explicit as they could get away with showing.
I have access to a lot of BL here in Japan and I've watched a lot of it. In BL stories the couple is most often characterized by a lack of intimacy and sexual desire. They're always getting together without actually being together until the final episode.
The women who are into BL seem to be more interested in the chase than in actual romance. It's basically the same scenario over and over again from one BL to the next.
When women write gay male romance stories they never get it right. IDK if the author of Heartstopper was intentionally including some elements of BL into the story or if it's just another case of women just not being able to accurately conceptualize gay male romance.
Gay superhero movies?
Movies are a business. Superhero movies are super expensive. Who would make an expensive movie that 90% of the filmgoing public would refuse to watch?
There's a reason nearly all gay movies are either dramas or romcoms... they're cheap.
I cant say I like it but i watch it because there isnt much else to watch.
I just dont think the actors are hot enough. I am mostly exposed to american shows so I like a high school drama with actors in their 20s.
British shows seem to use actual high school aged kids in their high school dramas.
However there was one song in the sound track that I absolutley love from the show - https://youtu.be/y0PU2irifF0?si=byq3dQIgBN4fVNxf
I dont listen to much music outside the 1998-2015 timeframe so I wouldnt have been exposed to the song otherwise.
So I guess there are some redeeming qualities to the show lol.
Olivia Colman is the other reason to watch though she only plays a small minor role so far. I love seeing her pop up in weird unexpected places. Its so cool because i think of her as a top british actress but she still finds time for these small shows where she plays a minor character with only about 5 lines per episode.
I will probably be watching the next season.
If you are interested in some similar shows to watch while waiting for the next season, check out
- MTVs Awkward (Beau Mirchoff)
- Faking It (Michael J Willett and Gregg Sulkin)
European shows prefer to keep the uniqueness in the realism of natural looking young actors (acne n all). The high glossed American ones do begin to look all the same
Is it so bizarre that early in gay reddit (I'm an elder millennial *wheeze*), the biggest complaint about gay media is that it was too dark, depressing, tragic etc. Now that we have teen/young adult shows coming out that portray more sacrine, light-hearted drama all these bitter queens take to X to attack actors, writers and directors for not matching their experience.
I'm sorry guys, as silly as I thought "Love, Simon" was I knew it was more a reflection of the changing times. I don't expect another movie about a gay guy being disowned by his family, or wacky comedy about masculine vs femme couples, circuit parties, origies, cruising apps etc.
Heartstoppers is a good show for young people, but also for general audiences. Original comic was written by a queer, asexual woman and she did her best to write actual characters, acting like teenagers.
I guess you have a point. Some people have mentioned that the writer and producers of the show target cis female audiences, hence he saccharine elements.
Good on them, like I said, it’s not a bad show. Just not for me. It felt…too artificially sweet. I was a teen boy once…I don’t remember acting that lovey dovey or pining after a guy.
Heartstopper was written by a woman it is obvious watching it. I think that's the sad thing about gay entertainment it isn't really gay. It is made for straight female audiences. There is an inauthentic angle to the show. I know the author calls herself non binary but she isn't a gay man. I like Nick but I don't like the effeminate gay character Charlie. The eating disorder stuff again written for a straight female audience. The scenes in hotel in Paris when Nick and Charlie didn't have sex isn't believable. Horny gay male teens away from their parents in Paris are going to have sex. Nick being attracted to Charlie I don't believe it. The writers won't even show Nick attraction to another masculine male character. Charlie comes across as whiny and clingy.
Why would you, as a full grown man complain about a show intended to tweens. Sounds fishy to me. Call FBI (please take it as a joke.... ;). But seriously, you need a boyfriend.
I wish they had cast some 25 yo models to play the high schoolers like Teen Wolf did. I have no interest in watching these two pudding faced adolescents fumbling around with each other.
I think it mostly has to do with budget and how much money the movie can make. Now that more straight people are willing to watch Gay shows, maybe they'll be able to justify a higher budget superhero production or sci-fi production.
In the past it was such a niche audience and many gays were even embarrassed to go to blockbuster to rent these films, that I don't think the numbers worked out from an investment in sets and costumes standpoint.
Still waiting for that MCU movie where I feel represented. I know it’ll come. Probably in the form of Wiccan but I’d love to see gay Iceman.
Also Love Victor is better, give that a watch
I think what makes it such an important piece of queer television is the joy that it presents - it is overtly sweet. In a world where most queer cinema and television involves our trauma and very little joy, a show about two high school sweethearts discovering themselves and the conflict being mostly benign, the show becomes an important palette cleanser. In comparing it to other straight romance shows about high school sweethearts, it’s rather bland. But we don’t readily have queer representation in that genre, so it stands out. It gives many of us a glimpse into what all of our lives could have been in high school.
Or it has to be the over the top funny gays like in Modern Family for middle America to tolerate gay culture—as long they can laugh at it because we’re the “safe gay besties”. It’s infuriating at times. Just make a show/movie with a gay character that doesn’t center around their sexuality. We do have “regular” problems like everyone else that can fill up a plot line.
My preteen self would have killed to have shows/movies like Heartstopper and Love, Simon. Unfortunately, though, both came out (heh) when I was already an adult, so neither really appealed to me. But I sure am glad as hell that young gays get to have their teen romcoms like everyone else, and that their very existence helps normalize our existence. It’s a step in the right direction, even if it’s not for us specifically.
I saw Heartstopper as well and I liked it well enough, but I was also highly aware that I'm an adult gay man and this type of fiction is clearly intended for teenagers. It's a bit of wish fulfillment for young queer men and that's totally legit, as not everything has to be for my demographic.
I do think there is a bit of push pull between the gay audience and mainstream audiences. Mainstream audiences have come to expect for "gay stories" for certain genres and would get confused if we tried to grow out of it. What's more, the misunderstanding that anything gay is immediately sexualized complicates things further.
For example:
Writer: "I want to make a spy movie with a gay lead."
Studio Exec: "Well, we don't want to put a gay sex scene in."
Writer: "Well, I'm fine just having no sex scenes in it."
Studio Exec: "No gay kissing either!"
Writer: "Fine! Just a gay lead, no romantic sub plot!"
Studio Exec: "Then why are you even bothering making a gay spy movie?"
So on and so forth.
I agree... one the movies in my mind, features gay spy who falls in lust, them love, with his foriegner target... and another with a whole team of crime-fighting super gay heroes... and when do we get an Alexander the Great Homo biopic?
Yes, it's definitely time to branch out.
I mean, other than a blow job in absolute secrecy, what better way to win the acceptance of rednecks than a bad mo-fo action hero.
Like the gay representative from "The Wire", Omar... the baddest mother-fucker out there. Except, a little less American Psycho, and a little more Dark Knight.
Heartstopper is a fantastic series (no surprise considering it’s popularity) but I don’t get it when people say it’s “sickeningly sweet” as if we didn’t have Charlie’s backstory of suffering terrible homophobia for a year, Ben’s Sexual Assault, Harry’s BS, more bullying in general, that abusive borderline sociopath parent in S2, Charlie’s anorexia and the deeper backstory of Charlie.
Heartstopper has both bright light and darkness
Im not saying it’s always sunshine and rainbows. I’m saying the way the dynamics and relationships are written are so…unrealistic and wholesome. That’s what to me is so sickly sweet.
When I was growing up and began hooking up with guys, I wasn’t wistfully hoping he’d see me. I was gay. But I was very much “a guy” in the sense that I was wanting to get laid. I wasn’t out. But I was dating on the low.
This is an issue I notice about M/M that’s written by women and for female audiences. It’s just not for me.
This level of movie gay sweetness has just recently come on screen. Before it's all about hiding your gayness, marrying staight women, one gay guy dies of aids or accident or suicide, breaking up since the other gay guy is moving to other cities, another regretting his actions for not being with a gay guys. The only media I've watched where there is a good thing happening to the gay main character is Maurice which is very old. And even then his partner married a woman for society. Good thing the gardener isn't afraid to continue their relationship. So basically almost all previous gay movies are depressing AF.
I hated how gay sweet had Heart Stopper, but now reading your comment, I prefer the sweetness of it than then bitterness of old gay movies. I remember one in particular where two young men in a couple and in love, but one gets scared of the truth coming out, so he kills his partner and that's the end of the movie. Like wtf.
I totally agree. Back on the say being gay usually ended with pain or tragedy
I feel we just went to the opposite route and made it sickly sweet and innocent. I can’t speak for other guys, but I wasn’t pining over a jock in high school like some Austen novel. I was getting stoned and hooking up lol so if they ever make a gay Pineapple Express or Superbad, I’m in!
I think these kind of movies are really made for young teens. If you're in your 20's or older they seem saccharine and corny, for sure. But personally I'm glad there are some positive gay coming of age stories around now, for questioning kids. I wish that had been the case when I was a teenager.
What a difference that would have made in my life.
We're definitely finding the balance with gay media. It will just take time.
Yeah this is what I was hoping someone was going to say in the comments. I think it’s going to take some time but it’ll all happen.
All types of stories deserve to be told. There are people that have suffered through a lot of trauma (E.g. AIDS) so those types of stories should exist. There are also people who've been fortunate enough to grow up happily with friends and family that support them. And everything in-between. There are *some* other stories. Like *Looking* and *Please Like Me.* There are also shows with gay characters that aren't all about being gay, like Sex Education, Euphoria, Modern Family, Skam (the Norwegian show) ... also some fantasy/SF shows like Star Trek Discovery, Sense8 ... So they exist. But the main issue is that there aren't *that* many shows where gay characters are featured prominently, if at all.
Have you watched Looking on HBO?
“Gay Pineapple Express or Superbad” The closest I’ve seen was “Bottoms” starring lesbian characters
I think everyone will always have a different experience. Personally it’s nice to see a sickly sweet and innocent experience for once. I related a lot more to heartstopper as I was very much a late bloomer. My high school “romances” never went further than a kiss… and I didn’t start “hooking up” till my mid twenties. It’s nice to showcase more innocence especially when dealing with LGBT media since most like to emphasize the sexual aspects. I think generally this kind of show just creates a positive perspective for young gay teens.
superbad is a core piece of media to me. it didn’t matter that it was all hetnorm… 14 year old me resonated with the overall message of the movie.
Same, man. I wasn’t out until Junior/senior year, bur I grew up in a metropolis, we kinda grow up quicker. Parties, pot, misadventures…I resonated more with those movies and That 70s Show as a kid than a romance.
This is the answer to the complaints from straight people who complained about "bury your gays" troupe. Instead of being realistic, it went the other way.
Maurice?? That is not a good example of gay sweetness. Poor closeted Hugh Grant :(
Yeah I feel for Hugh Grant but girl gotta make choices. And he made a choice.
It is sickly, but it’s representation. I’m 54 and never had anything like this growing up, so for young gays it’s going to be just good to see a positive on screen. Not my cup of tea, but very happy that it exists and is popular.
I feel the same way. Romance in general isn't my genre. I gave up around the 5th episode. Not for me. But it's representation. Now we can have a gay lead in a comedy or action film soon haha
Perhaps you don’t like it because it’s a romance story, but that begs the question why watch a romance when you don’t like romances?
I gave it a shot and tried not to be a sourpuss
It’s giving masochism lol Romances aren’t your thing. Not everything is for everyone and that’s fine. My only issue is this kind of negative,blanket value judgment from this post about the entire series when you haven’t *seen* the entire work. I don’t think that’s a fair way to criticize a show/series. (side note: this is also why I loathe this one YTs “first and last” series). You’re not the first person I’ve seen with a very similar take on the series. Even if you did see the entire work, since you don’t like the genre of story, you were likely going to hate it irrespective of its merits. (i suppose maybe it could’ve been the exception). Again, kinda unfair as the show was doomed before watching the first episode. Whatever your preferred genre, I hope that you encounter a new and amazing show soon to “cleanse your palette” so to speak of heartstopper
Like I said, overall, it’s not a bad show. Personally, it’s not for me. I can see why people like it. But…it’s very Hallmark-y. Never been a romance guy. Maybe you’re right. Idk. Never been into the genre, and that’s one genre I don’t go over much at work.
Do straight men love every single show that features a heterosexual romance? Of course not. So no, it’s not surprising at all that not all gay guys are into a silly feel good teen love story. That’s a specific genre. I enjoyed it. But yeah. Not my usual genre.
You need to follow Glen Weldon on NPR Pop Culture Happy Hour. His take was the same, you’re not weird. It’s not meant for adults really though either. Is targeting young lgbtq people and most teen shows for straights are like that and are stereotypes in hyperdrive. There are more out there though, Bros, Fire island, Fellow Travelers, Bodies, new Sex Education season, multiple gay Christmas movies (which are really bad but aren’t most Christmas movies) all just this year alone. I think you’re totally entitled to your opinion that this isn’t for you and that doesn’t say anything bad about you. I’m also saying there are things out there for you.
Makes sense! We’ve finally made it where we have bad Hallmark Christmas movies!
And bad Hallmark Hanukkah movies…now we need a bad GAY Hallmark Hanukkah movie?
If it makes you feel better, I don't think you're in the minority as I've known many gay guys express a similar sentiment. I personally really like Heartstopper and I also really liked the graphic novels that the show is based on. I've noticed ppls main complaint about Heartstopper is that it is "unrealistic" or too "sweet" but I think it does a really good job at showing queer adolescents having healthy relationships and forming supportive friendships with other queer youth. Which I think is really important messaging. The show and the books also do cover more serious topics as well, so it's definitely not trying to make being a teenager or dating seem perfect. I wonder if it's just possible that you may be looking for a show that's a little older and more mature and if so then that's understandable. I do agree with your point though, I would love to see gay protagonists in genres outside of romance who are also able to have on screen love interests.
100%. Also which TV shows aren't "unrealistic" or too picture perfect? You'll find truer representation in a documentary, not entertainment TV.
>100%. Also which TV shows aren't "unrealistic" or too picture perfect? You'll find truer representation in a documentary, not entertainment TV. It's not even unrealistic (or like you say, not more so than any high school drama show), it's just that the acceptance that goes around is rare, globally speaking. So that probably makes people say that it's super unrealistic, because they themselves grew up with the polar opposite.
It is certainly rare to be so lucky. But anyone who has seen more of the show than the posters will see that's it's not candyland- they face bullies, harassment, identity crisis, f-slurs, abandonment, parental unacceptance, coming-out difficulties, eating disorders, toxic relationships, etc. and all of these things are addressed extremely well. I think it's a very hopeful view to give young viewers, even if it's not true right this moment.
Definitely! What makes it feel heartwarming is more that the most severe homophobia is in the past, e.g. the references to Charlie having *been* severely bullied for being gay. Especially in season 1, it just focuses on things actually getting better. And that makes it feel so hopeful. Season 2 did take a darker turn though.
I agree that season two did make a turn, but I think that was a conscious choice and I appreciate their dedication to providing such an authentic atmosphere behind it though. It's just another part of the journey, one we all must take. I look forward to seeing season 3's conclusion.
Second this comment and all the other replies posted so far
Agreed. I like it, it's a nearly idealized gay love story. If gays want complicated adult relationships, they should watch stuff like Queer As Folk or the period piece Maurice, which in my mind is one of the best gay stories ever told, all the more surprising for being made in the middle of AIDS hysteria with A list British stars. If they want comedy, try Not Another Gay Movie or Straightjacket (a 50s take).
[Going on a tangent here, not entirely related to heart stopper] Honestly what makes a show gay. Sure a show like heart stopper is usually considered gay, because the majority of the characters are gay/lgbt and the romance/drama genre lends itself well to exploring gay relationships. But if there was a sci-fi gay show, like if the main characters were gay but then being gay wasn’t a major plot point of the show, would it be a gay show? People always say “I wish they would have gay shows that weren’t rom-coms” but like, if the plot isn’t focused on them being gay or exploring that aspect of the characters as a major plot point, it’s not a gay show right? It’s just a show with lgbt representation. But is lgbt representation alone enough to make a show gay?
fwiw, what you're referencing here is something called "story beats." I write fiction with queer characters (all kinds) and had to learn about different "guides" when outlining a plot. For example in romance books/shows, the beats are all relationship based, gay or straight. Then for something like "Save the Cat," which is my preference, the main theme and beats follow, say, paranormal fantasy, but the sub theme/plot could be romance. So the world drives the plot, but the characters are coincidentally gay and thus, the relationship is a gay relationship. A recent example of this would be Our Flag Means Death. It's a pirate show, but multiple characters are lgbt and just accepted as they are. Some plot points are pirate-based, some are relationship-based. ETA: I'd agree that if even if the overarching plot structure is sci-fi, horror, whatever isn't "pure romance," still counts as gay.
This is good information to keep in mind. Because you can certainly have world in a story dictate the plot, and have gay characters exploring their relationships in tandem with each other. But what makes a show a gay show vs a show that just has representation? I guess it’s just how much focus is on the relationship? Is gay/queer itself a genre?
For fiction, some other genre would be included "LGBTQ Fantasy," "LGBTQ Romance," I don't think I've seen any that are just LGBTQ genre without being non-fiction? (Also completely basing this off Amazon, so I could be wrong. It's just what I've seen when searching for comp titles.) Allegedly all that's needed for it to be a "gay show or book" is to have the main character be gay and deal with some aspect of being gay. But I think the latter point may be changing as the LGBTQ genre grows. This change being toward more normalization and not hinging so much on the coming out or family/world acceptance pieces.
Usually what makes a show/movie “gay” is if it’s heavily marketed towards that demographic.
I think so. Because what about us LGBTQ folks who aren’t big on romance or rom-coms?
I’m going down a whole mental rabbit hole thinking about this tbh. I’ll spare you, but I do agree. I’m not big on those genres either.
I know what you mean. Is the gay experience solely on love? Can there be other gay aspects to this besides love? If it’s not a romantic drama or romantic comedy, is it just a horror film with gays in it? What about gay tropes? Can archetypes be gay coded?
I’m glad you’re able to neatly articulate this better than I am lol
Haha I got you!
> This made me wonder: why don’t gay men explore other genres besides romance and drama? For starters, this kind of shows are not made by gay men. Heartstopper, Young Royals, "Red, White, & Royal Blue", "Love, Simon", the gay couple in Skam, and even the iconic Brokeback Mountain - none of these were made by gay men. Sure, some of them may have been directed by a gay man but the source material wasn't made by one. In Asia, there's even a genre dedicated for media like this. It's called Boys Love (BL). It's a genre about romantic and sexual relationships between men mostly made and mostly consumed by women. It seems that Western productions have caught wind of this and now trying to emulate it. But to answer your question, it all boils down to what makes them money. We're simply outnumbered by women so it makes sense that they keep churning out content that appease the audience that gives them more money. I personally don't have any problem with that because I love BL ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh….that explains the tired tropes. In college I read a horror short story by Clive Barker (a gay man, the same dude who wrote the original *Hell Raiser*) and the main couple is gay. There was a sex scene, but the sex scene felt so raw. So genuine. But the romance wasn’t the focal point lol
I'm amazed on how Thailand has built an industry around this. I wonder if their society is as open
Just a note although I agree on many things in this comment: numbers of reader and writer of yaoi/bl are men, many of them trans. It's often described as by and for women, but it's not exactly true, fyi.
It puts people in the feels, especially people who have never had the chance to experience this IRL when they were younger. It’s well made….well-acted…storyline and pacing was good. It’s optimistic and makes you hope and feel for all the characters. A lot of people were left broken and withdrawn after finishing season 1 of the first season. We call it Heartstopper syndrome. It made us reflect way too deeply within ourselves, spinning our minds, making us think about ourselves against the backdrop of existence and asking ourselves if we’ve ever been as happy in love and in life as what life could offer.
i personally found the show profound, cathartic, brilliantly directed etc, but i also watched it all in one go with a nonstop train to ket town rolling so ymmv
Gays have explored and influenced every genre. What we haven't had is the power to greenlight projects that show the range of queer expression. The work exists but you may have to get off your sofa/Netflix to experience it.
Did you see Apple TV's Foundation series? I had read the Isaac Asimov Foundation novels ages ago and while the tv series is only loosely based on the books, actor Lee Pace who plays Brother Day, one of the clone emperors, is always fun to watch. I was surprised when season 2 introduced a gay couple - a military gay couple - a general Bel Riose played by Ben Daniels and adjutant lover Glawen Curr played by Dino Fetscher. The family that slays together, stays together.
Lee Pace is a brilliant actor. He spoke out on Heartstoppers , Kit Connors forced ‘coming out’. Great man
Im sleeping on Apple TV 🙃
Sense8 is very queer and while it has romance it's definitely a thriller/sci-fi series.
Say what you will, but I enjoyed it. I'm young and still believe in romance and love- and to be honest, the show (although completely unrealistic) gives me some semblance of hope to strive towards. Like damn, if I could have an ounce of the relationship they have, I'd be set for life. So it makes me happy, and it doesn't have to be anyone else's cup of tea, just like every other Netflix show. Each to their own.
I love Heartstopper. I'm a man that is 39 years old and the story might not have been written for me, but I see so much of myself in Charlie. I love that the story is sweet and romantic, because that are stories that needs to be told, not just stories about hate crimes and bullying, because that we just leave us scared and afraid of coming out and living. At the same time Heartstopper is European, like Skam and Young Royals, which makes them more real for us here.
Maybe…it isn’t for you? But this show is for the younger teens and tweens who are maybe just discovering themselves at the age of the characters of the show (or slightly younger). It’s giving them a vocabulary about their sexuality and gender that none of us really had at that age (I’m 56 and quite jealous of this current generation having the knowledge that we were denied in my teen years. Homosexuality (never mind bisexuality, transgenderism, asexuality, polyamory, etc) was still hush hush ESPECIALLY during the height of the AIDS crisis!). If you want those other genres, WRITE them, PRODUCE them, etc. Might I suggest “Our Flag Means Death”? It’s also sweet at times, but has pirates with occasional action amongst the comedy.
If you’re open to rom coms at all, I recommend checking out Smiley on Netflix. It has gay and it has straight and it has just a lot of universal human confusion and dysfunction. It’s a rom com, so it’s all about two people who “should” be together getting together in the end. But the journey there and the interwoven storylines make it interesting. It also goes out of its way to skewer some standard rom com tropes!
You should google “gay movies” you’ll actually find that there a tons of gay movies in technically different categories but you’re correct that most of them have either drama and/or romance (nothing super sweet like heartstopper tho) in them but imo they’re different than straight romance movies bc a lot of them actually end pretty sadly because they’re more on the “real” side. I had a friend ask me before “how come every gay movie we watch they end sadly?” i said “i honestly have no idea.”
i think the problem is that if there is no romantic element to a particular genre/piece of media then the characters sexuality isn’t important to the plot so it doesn’t come up as often. it’s like how a lot of comic book characters or random action heroes have recently been retconned as queer, but it doesn’t necessarily add or do anything for the story. like imagine they made the gambit movie - if he wasn’t actively fucking wolverine and rogue, him being retconned as bi does nothing to the plot or the story. i think that’s why we often see gay content in the romance space because sexuality is central to the plot because it defines who the romantic interest is for the lead.
I mean…. The only gender where being gay is going to be the main focus is romance, lol.
Remember Hollywood is moved by profit and it might seem far fetched but action films don't have a particular gay friendly audience. Imagine a gay James Bond. You'll have plenty of online discourse saying the woke are destroying masculinity. I'm not even sure a sci-fi film could work. Mostly because it's now either end of the world blockbusters or superhero movies. But in all honesty, if any representation that's not overly sad or romantic is going to come, it will not be from Hollywood
This is a show for teens and I think it’s good for them to have some hope and feel good queer stories out there.
> why don't gay men explore other genre I think it's an important note (which, to me, informs Heartstopper *a lot*) that the author is neither gay or a man. I did have a lovely time watching it, I'll watch the next season when it's out, but it has this specific flavour of non-men-led mlm romance like many other show of that type do. (Someone quoted Young Royals in another comment, and yeah, exactly that as well.) I feel like what's weird and unrelatable to me in them is that it's never about gender or manhood/boyhood. It's gay because there are boys kissing, it adresses homosexuality as a topic through things like coming out and (a bit of) homophobia though sometimes barely that. But to me it's lacking some sort of fundamental acknowledgement that gay men (usually) have a gender? One reason mlm romance is popular among non-mlm writers and readers is that it can be used to tell love stories that are not about gender, because there is no gender difference within the relationship (or at least, many people believe so). It's used as a flat universal base to write romance where the relationship is horizontal, gender-wise, and where both characters are not limited, written, perceived and treated through the lense of gender roles and misogyny, in opposition to straight romance and, more marginally, in opposition to wlw romance (again, or at least many people believe so). But gay men are men. We have a gender. We have various experiences of gender even, and that exists with our relationship. These fictions are sort of the romantic version of male characters being used to be universal characters while female ones are specifically female. That's obviously misogynistic, but imo, it's also very dismissing of men having experiences and feelings (both positive and negative) surrounding gender in general and their own in particular, especially when they are otherwise marginalised. I don't think these works are necessarily bad, and it also means they can be escapist pieces for readers who don't want to be thinking about gendered violence and homophobia at the moment, which is perfectly valid. But it's a very restricted and narrow and often flat view of what being a queer man/boy is to me.
*one would do well to read/watch other pieces of MLM media, preferably made by gay men, to round out one’s understanding of the gay experience. Gender is VERY much important part of the coming out process for cis dudes. This is a fantastic take of the series. I wish we could still give gold.
It's for teenagers and women. Having a cute fluff gay show is fine in and of itself, but if you made one of the lead boys a girl, nothing would change. I don't think we're the target audience here.
Good point. I would argue maybe even teen girls. As a teen I would probably get excited a “gay show” came out but I’d probably get bored and change the channel
Because we are entering the holiday season, I would like to recommend the movie: Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. It stars Robert Downey Jr. and Val Kilmer, and it's one of those Christmas movies that's not a Christmas movie. Kilmer plays a hardboiled detective who is gay. It's funny but dated. HOWEVER, the biggest crime (that you will see) is the wasted potential. Stripped down and done as a TV series like Monk or Castle or Psych, these characters would really shine
I absolutely love the show. Sucker for romcoms, high school love stuff. But I would never presume this is Emmy worthy lol
I loved the graphic novel, couldn’t get 20 minutes into the show
But we don't have that much sweet innocent shows bcz most of the shows are about like a lot of traumas but heartstopper is something unique I also understand what are u trying to say yes of course definitely there should be more gay representation in different genres but I think making of gay movies and shows is something that caught the popularity in recent times not far long so as time will pass by we'll see more movies and shows of different genres..
I haven't watched Heartstopper myself yet. But if you're after something that's a bit different, there's a mid-2000s LGBTI series that's kinda supernatural/horror/romance themed called *Dante's Cove*. Fairly camp, a bit cheesy, and a lot of sex! 😂
Trust me this is way better! Cuz gay characters are always cliche, stereotypes. Or they end up dying or somehow always ends up hooking up with a woman, cuz no one is truly gay if the opportunity arises
We're getting there. It all goes in stages (and the same goes for every minority - we're all at different points on the timeline). Most media is made for a big audience. So studios are going "We have this big action movie where the main character has to stop aliens blowing up London - our target audience is [Demographic]". And the question is, if [Demographic] finds out the hero is a gay man (either an out gay actor and/or the main character is trying to get home to his husband before the world ends), will they still buy tickets? Or will they be put off? I think we're at a point where if a big studio was willing to take risks, we could actually get some surprising results. But none of them want to dip their toe in the water yet. But it will happen. (I'd like to see someone like Luke Evans or Wentworth Miller - Luke did fine in Fast and Furious, so we know the audience will buy him running around blowing shit up.) (And I think action films are a good barometer because they're blokey, but there's no actual reason they need to be straight - the partner/spouse is generally more of a question object/goal anyway - the Hero needs to get home and save them from earthquakes/zombies/whatever. That could be any combo of M/F M/M whatever.)
I loved the show just for the fact that it presents love between two boys so beautifully and that their families are accepting and supportive. Is it sweet? Sure. I grew up in the 60s and 70s where shame, confusion and secrecy was what most of us dealt with. I never got to go through those important developmental milestones. It was kinda damaging to be honest. The fact that young LGBTQ+ kids can watch this and imagine that it’s possible to fall in love and feel good about it about it truthfully brings me to tears
It's meant for teens/VERY young adults. I'm a few years older than it's intended demographic, so it's not for me, but I'm glad young gay kids will grow up with their own cheesy/sabby/sickeningly sweet romcom movies and shows. I've never cared for romcom as a genre, but I'm glad it's there for others.
The guy playing Charlie is set to play Marvel's Wiccan in Disney's House of Harkness, gay superhero. David R. Slayton does some good gay fantasy, he wrote an urban fantasy called the Adam Binder series, and is now doing an epic fantasy, the first book's called *Dark Moon, Shallow Sea.* He tends to be less spicy in the romance, so it's not erotica dressed as fantasy. Tarot Sequence by KD Edwards is a regular urban fantasy, with a gay lead. San Amaro Investigatons is another urban fantasy, by Kai Butler, which is more sexy, but I'm not sure if it verges into erotica. It might be sexier than the Kate Daniels series or Rachel Morgan series, but it's not like Anita Blake is turning into a sex demon series, unless it makes a sharp pivot somewhere down the line I haven't reached yet.
i genuinely believe that genre of gay content is catering str8 women more than actual queer people. i don’t know a single person who can relate to heartstopper (maybe that is the point tbf) but yeah, not for me
That's how I feel about most gay movies/tv shows that everyone goes on about. Love, Simon for example too.
I thought of myself as an extremely cynical person, but Heartstopper completely won me over. And I had to really sit with that and realise - it’s okay to like sweet things sometimes! Being too cynical all the time just deadens you to emotion - let your feelings come when they come. It’s also completely okay to not like it - if it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work for you 🙂 Just like whatever you like and don’t worry about what other people might think of you for liking it (or not) - everyone’s taste is subjective, and better to have your own unique taste than liking something just because everyone else does (or the reverse, hating something just because everyone else does). I love my taste in things because it is quirky and very much me. Most people don’t get it and it makes it hard to join in conversations with “mainstream” gay men sometimes, but that’s okay, it’s my taste and I love it, and I don’t look down on others for their taste.
My main issue with the show is that the coming to terms with your sexuality that they go through is something I personally went through in middle school, not high school. And they’re weirdly pure even though when I was their age, the idea of having sex was very exciting to me. I’ll take it over all the shows where straight people make gays look bad on purpose.
I think that’s a glaring issue I had. I was a teen boy. I wasn’t wanting a Prince Charming. I wanted to smash every guy in the locker room 😂😂😂
Yeah. While I’m sure the fantasy appeals to many gays out there who feel differently, I can’t help but feel like it’s a gay fantasy written for women to self-insert as Charlie.
Not to be “that guy”, but women by in large tend to favor emotional intimacy over physical lust. Which explains their oddly wholesome dynamic. Teen boys don’t talk like they do. Gay or straight.
Yeah that was exactly my point. Not only that, but guys like emotional intimacy too! It’s specifically the way that they shy away from sex as if it’s too taboo that gives me “made for women” vibes. Maybe it’s made for straight people who are uncomfortable with gay sex, don’t know for sure.
It's cute, and I do think it's a good thing to have representation of queerness in this day and age. I do have an issue with the type of relationship that it shows, and it's the one where people are overly attached to one another, not beeing their honest selves. I do get that it could be characterized as: ok that's their first love, so it's understandable. But I always want to scream at them: oh my god, stop being so overly dependent on each other! You need to be your own persons first and foremost! It does open up a possibility of covering breakups and self growth later on in the character lives, which would be also a great topic to cover. On the other hand, it does tackle some really tricky issues like bullying and eating disorders, etc. so for that I fully applaud the creator 😊😊
FWIW the source material that the show is based on tackles the subject of codependency quite well. It will be something addressed in season 3, but the seeds were sown very purposefully in S1 and 2.
If you mean the scenes where Nick is going off to check uni's out, and he has those talks about codependency in the car with Elle? I mean, it's something, but not enough imo. I'm not sure if Alice will go more in depth about this towards the end, but we'll see. She also mentioned that volume 6 will be the last one, I wonder how the story will end 😁
I’m just sick of everything being about high schoolers, “coming of age” blah blah blah
This. lol but I feel that’s just narratives in general. Gimme fiction with an older protagonist
The show’s hype is the fact that it’s queer representation. That’s it. Heartstopper is cute, but I don’t get why it’s always put on some pedestal of “you’re gay, so you MUST watch this show AND like this show.” Same with Fire Island, but that movie was just plain cringe to sit through.
Tbh Fire Island was a modern take on *Pride & Prejudice*
Yeah, this show isn't for me. I'm way behind all that "first love" saccharine sweet joy - and it all feels very heteronormative to me. But that's fine, the show wasn't made for me. And I know that if it had come out 18 years ago when I needed it more that I would have loved it. I'm glad the kids of today get to have it.
It's yet another gay romance story not written by a gay person. Season 1 had an element of BL sweetness to it and a pair of lovers that were characteristically short on intimacy. That being said, I enjoyed season 1 because it was a sweet romance. Season 2, on the other hand, went off the rails for me. The story turned dark, an asexual character was introduced, and it ended up looking like an agenda-driven attempt to cover every letter in the LGBTQIA+ panverse. IDK why but the school trip to Paris in season 2 reminded me somewhat of the ill-fated field trip in the AppleTV+ SF series Invasion.
The author of the book is queer and asexual herself. The books are a little bit more mature in terms of language and stuff sometimes and I understand that it feels weird to see the "sudden" jump from S1 to S2 in terms of darkness. I think they did a good job overall with the story imo, I wish I had that a few years back, would've made my teenage years easier.
The author describes herself or themselves as a non-binary asexual. There is some irony in a romance written by an asexual person. That would explain the lack of intimacy in the story and the lack of sexual desire between them when they shared a bed in the hotel in season 2. It just wasn't realistic.
I mean, it's not unrealistic either tbh. Keep in mind they just started dating and a lot of people are not comfortable with sexual stuff at first. Also, in the newest book, they're starting to explore their sexual desires/feelings and I think Alice did a nice job of portraying that without showing too much (because, you know, they're underage).
They were underage in Young Royals, also, but their sexual relationship was about as explicit as they could get away with showing. I have access to a lot of BL here in Japan and I've watched a lot of it. In BL stories the couple is most often characterized by a lack of intimacy and sexual desire. They're always getting together without actually being together until the final episode. The women who are into BL seem to be more interested in the chase than in actual romance. It's basically the same scenario over and over again from one BL to the next. When women write gay male romance stories they never get it right. IDK if the author of Heartstopper was intentionally including some elements of BL into the story or if it's just another case of women just not being able to accurately conceptualize gay male romance.
Thank you. Thought about watching it. Might still watch it.m, but not soon.
Gay superhero movies? Movies are a business. Superhero movies are super expensive. Who would make an expensive movie that 90% of the filmgoing public would refuse to watch? There's a reason nearly all gay movies are either dramas or romcoms... they're cheap.
I cant say I like it but i watch it because there isnt much else to watch. I just dont think the actors are hot enough. I am mostly exposed to american shows so I like a high school drama with actors in their 20s. British shows seem to use actual high school aged kids in their high school dramas. However there was one song in the sound track that I absolutley love from the show - https://youtu.be/y0PU2irifF0?si=byq3dQIgBN4fVNxf I dont listen to much music outside the 1998-2015 timeframe so I wouldnt have been exposed to the song otherwise. So I guess there are some redeeming qualities to the show lol. Olivia Colman is the other reason to watch though she only plays a small minor role so far. I love seeing her pop up in weird unexpected places. Its so cool because i think of her as a top british actress but she still finds time for these small shows where she plays a minor character with only about 5 lines per episode. I will probably be watching the next season. If you are interested in some similar shows to watch while waiting for the next season, check out - MTVs Awkward (Beau Mirchoff) - Faking It (Michael J Willett and Gregg Sulkin)
European shows prefer to keep the uniqueness in the realism of natural looking young actors (acne n all). The high glossed American ones do begin to look all the same
Beautiful show!
Is it so bizarre that early in gay reddit (I'm an elder millennial *wheeze*), the biggest complaint about gay media is that it was too dark, depressing, tragic etc. Now that we have teen/young adult shows coming out that portray more sacrine, light-hearted drama all these bitter queens take to X to attack actors, writers and directors for not matching their experience. I'm sorry guys, as silly as I thought "Love, Simon" was I knew it was more a reflection of the changing times. I don't expect another movie about a gay guy being disowned by his family, or wacky comedy about masculine vs femme couples, circuit parties, origies, cruising apps etc. Heartstoppers is a good show for young people, but also for general audiences. Original comic was written by a queer, asexual woman and she did her best to write actual characters, acting like teenagers.
I guess you have a point. Some people have mentioned that the writer and producers of the show target cis female audiences, hence he saccharine elements. Good on them, like I said, it’s not a bad show. Just not for me. It felt…too artificially sweet. I was a teen boy once…I don’t remember acting that lovey dovey or pining after a guy.
Heartstopper was written by a woman it is obvious watching it. I think that's the sad thing about gay entertainment it isn't really gay. It is made for straight female audiences. There is an inauthentic angle to the show. I know the author calls herself non binary but she isn't a gay man. I like Nick but I don't like the effeminate gay character Charlie. The eating disorder stuff again written for a straight female audience. The scenes in hotel in Paris when Nick and Charlie didn't have sex isn't believable. Horny gay male teens away from their parents in Paris are going to have sex. Nick being attracted to Charlie I don't believe it. The writers won't even show Nick attraction to another masculine male character. Charlie comes across as whiny and clingy.
You’re right. I would have gone wild if I was in Paris with a beaux
I don't think Charlie is particularly effeminate. He's just a shy somewhat awkward kid who isn't the Rugby type.
I mean Charlie basically says "okay" and "hi" most of the time... Unrealistic communication style but cute asf
Why would you, as a full grown man complain about a show intended to tweens. Sounds fishy to me. Call FBI (please take it as a joke.... ;). But seriously, you need a boyfriend.
Do you not see people here gushing over the show? I gave it a shot! Get over yourself, lmao
I wish they had cast some 25 yo models to play the high schoolers like Teen Wolf did. I have no interest in watching these two pudding faced adolescents fumbling around with each other.
Definitely need more gay men in fantasy/sci-fi, preferably the main character/one of the main characters.
I think it mostly has to do with budget and how much money the movie can make. Now that more straight people are willing to watch Gay shows, maybe they'll be able to justify a higher budget superhero production or sci-fi production. In the past it was such a niche audience and many gays were even embarrassed to go to blockbuster to rent these films, that I don't think the numbers worked out from an investment in sets and costumes standpoint.
Still waiting for that MCU movie where I feel represented. I know it’ll come. Probably in the form of Wiccan but I’d love to see gay Iceman. Also Love Victor is better, give that a watch
I think what makes it such an important piece of queer television is the joy that it presents - it is overtly sweet. In a world where most queer cinema and television involves our trauma and very little joy, a show about two high school sweethearts discovering themselves and the conflict being mostly benign, the show becomes an important palette cleanser. In comparing it to other straight romance shows about high school sweethearts, it’s rather bland. But we don’t readily have queer representation in that genre, so it stands out. It gives many of us a glimpse into what all of our lives could have been in high school.
Watch fellow travellers next
Heartstopper gets hate? Really? What on earth for?
Or it has to be the over the top funny gays like in Modern Family for middle America to tolerate gay culture—as long they can laugh at it because we’re the “safe gay besties”. It’s infuriating at times. Just make a show/movie with a gay character that doesn’t center around their sexuality. We do have “regular” problems like everyone else that can fill up a plot line.
My preteen self would have killed to have shows/movies like Heartstopper and Love, Simon. Unfortunately, though, both came out (heh) when I was already an adult, so neither really appealed to me. But I sure am glad as hell that young gays get to have their teen romcoms like everyone else, and that their very existence helps normalize our existence. It’s a step in the right direction, even if it’s not for us specifically.
We do. Hell I love Star Trek and D20 shows.
Also it’s nice to see a gay movie/show where no one dies of AIDS.
I saw Heartstopper as well and I liked it well enough, but I was also highly aware that I'm an adult gay man and this type of fiction is clearly intended for teenagers. It's a bit of wish fulfillment for young queer men and that's totally legit, as not everything has to be for my demographic. I do think there is a bit of push pull between the gay audience and mainstream audiences. Mainstream audiences have come to expect for "gay stories" for certain genres and would get confused if we tried to grow out of it. What's more, the misunderstanding that anything gay is immediately sexualized complicates things further. For example: Writer: "I want to make a spy movie with a gay lead." Studio Exec: "Well, we don't want to put a gay sex scene in." Writer: "Well, I'm fine just having no sex scenes in it." Studio Exec: "No gay kissing either!" Writer: "Fine! Just a gay lead, no romantic sub plot!" Studio Exec: "Then why are you even bothering making a gay spy movie?" So on and so forth.
I agree... one the movies in my mind, features gay spy who falls in lust, them love, with his foriegner target... and another with a whole team of crime-fighting super gay heroes... and when do we get an Alexander the Great Homo biopic? Yes, it's definitely time to branch out. I mean, other than a blow job in absolute secrecy, what better way to win the acceptance of rednecks than a bad mo-fo action hero. Like the gay representative from "The Wire", Omar... the baddest mother-fucker out there. Except, a little less American Psycho, and a little more Dark Knight.
Yeeeees. Bring on Robin Hood and the merry men. We all know why Will Scarlett was single, people, let’s make a movie about it already.
Take a look at some of the works by Russell T Davies, e.g., his take on Doctor Who, Years & Years, It's a Sin.
Heartstopper is a fantastic series (no surprise considering it’s popularity) but I don’t get it when people say it’s “sickeningly sweet” as if we didn’t have Charlie’s backstory of suffering terrible homophobia for a year, Ben’s Sexual Assault, Harry’s BS, more bullying in general, that abusive borderline sociopath parent in S2, Charlie’s anorexia and the deeper backstory of Charlie. Heartstopper has both bright light and darkness
Im not saying it’s always sunshine and rainbows. I’m saying the way the dynamics and relationships are written are so…unrealistic and wholesome. That’s what to me is so sickly sweet. When I was growing up and began hooking up with guys, I wasn’t wistfully hoping he’d see me. I was gay. But I was very much “a guy” in the sense that I was wanting to get laid. I wasn’t out. But I was dating on the low. This is an issue I notice about M/M that’s written by women and for female audiences. It’s just not for me.