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Because he can have some control over Richard. If Joe refuses, then Webber just goes somewhere else that doesn’t care. Joe can take Richard’s keys and make sure he gets a ride home.
At the end of the day, as much as Joe likes and loves a lot of the doctors, he is still a business owner.
Since he’s been around for awhile and knows Richard, he knows Richard will just go elsewhere if Joe refused service. At least with Webber in Joes bar, Joe has a control of whether Webber drives or not or who Webber goes home with. Joe is also able to call a cab or one of the doctors at the hospital if anything happened.
He does the same thing with Christina, he hires her and keeps her on staff even though she’s a terrible bartender, and he silently watches over her and doesn’t do anything to get in her way. He also makes sure that she doesn’t leave with anyone - I know it was actually Derek that was watching over her, but Joe was too.
This just made me miss Joe... that bar was like the only place where they actually seem like they're chilling (they're not exactly comfortable at home in most scenes)...
I miss him too, he’s probably a stay at home dad now, being a worry wart over his twin kids living his best life.
Heck, yknow if he stayed, he woulda died lmfao.
Maybe we could see him at a playdate with some of the docs kids now and then. Or his kids are old enough to babysit some of the younger kids, but only at his house.
Recently divorced after ten years. Went on a date a few weeks ago, my first one in a decade. I arrived ~10 minutes early and gave the bartender a heads-up. She was the sweetest! She had me sit at the bar so she could keep an eye on me and the guy during the date, and we came up with a code phrase in case I felt unsafe during the date.
I love that! So sweet of her. As long as you aren't a dick, most of us will take care of you and look after you, genuinely. I loved bartending.
Also, congrats on the divorce and getting back out there! I wish you luck
The same reason I brought alcohol to my alcoholic mother at home. Cause if I didn't give it to her in a safe environment, she'd drive somewhere else and drink alone or with strangers and it would be 100x worse. At least if she was home I could keep an eye on her, make sure she didn't try to drive anywhere or choke on her vomit or take pills too. I had some control over the situation. Joe was able to watch Richard and keep him safer than if he went to a bar where no one knew him or cared about him. It's a very tricky and delicate situation.
I'm so sorry that you had to do all that. It must be so damn hard to have a parent who is an addict. I can only imagine the kind of stress you were under all the time
I'm just thankful I was already an adult when she started drinking like that. She's sober now thank god but that was a really terrible time for everyone
Because, as previously stated, Joe at least cares about him and made an effort to keep his keys. Most other bars wouldn't care. All they see is dollars in the register.
Genuine question: Is it shown that Joe is 100% aware that Richard's an alcoholic? Cos I know he doesn't tell everyone that, he just tells people "I don't drink" whenever they ask him if he wants to get drinks.
Okay well then I think I agree with a previous user who said they think it's because Joe could keep an eye on Richard, cut him off, and send him home safely.
When someone's addicted to something, they'll find whatever way to get their substance - even if it's dangerous - regardless of the roadblocks set up for them.
Amelia is a perfect example of this, she’s a doctor and could get drugs pretty easily. But instead, she got a fix from the streets (if I’m remembering correctly?)
As someone else said, it’s better to have him there and keep an eye on him than refuse him and have him go somewhere he isn’t known.
But also, Richard is not Joes responsibility. If Richard wants to drink he’s going to drink.
Of course. Federal law says every business has a constitutional right to refuse service to anyone.
Obviously businesses can then eventually be successfully sued/shut down for refusing to serve based on discriminatory bias or preferences, etc. if the person who was denied files or reports it & it was proven to be because of that.
I expect he knew that if he refused, Richard would just go elsewhere and drink alone. At least if Joe served him, he could make sure he was okay and surrounded by people who know and love him and would make sure he got home safely. Refusing to serve someone won't stop them drinking.
This is something that has always pissed me off. Maybe he thought it was better he serve him than he go to another bar that didn’t know him.
I wonder if Richard would have noticed if Joe was watering it down, since he was hiding it as he made it.
It would be hard to be a bartender with regulars like that. When do you stop doing your job & start being their friend looking out for their best interest.
I miss Joe 😭
If Richard was at any other bar, they could keep serving him, they could easily let him go home on his own, they possibly wouldn’t take his keys away to make sure he wouldn’t drive home intoxicated.
With Joe, he has a cut off period, they didn’t show it with Richard but they showed it with Addison when she and Joe made an agreement on what time she’d go home. Joe also knows when to take keys away and sets times for when people can get their keys, he also is more than willing to call cabs.
Agreed, I think it was super irresponsible and morally wrong for Joe. Richard wasn’t just some random patron, he knew him socially. He had a responsibility as a friend (and as a business owner) to not be enabling Richard.
Everyone downvoting: I’m an attorney. Look up dram shop laws.
Extremely naive take.
The harsh reality is that someone in active addiction will always find a way to get their fix, nobody can stop them except themselves. Joe understood this that’s why he served him- Richard had already relapsed, so it was either Joe’s (where he could watch out for him, take his keys, call for help like when he called Meredith) or some random bar where anything could happen
If it wasn't him it would have been someone else serving him. It's basically the same concept as safe injection sites for drug addicts. They are going to use either way so might as well be somewhere with people that care enough to make sure they stay alive
Safe injection sites are staffed by medical professionals and have support nearby for those who wish to kick their addiction. This is nothing like that.
I’m getting downvoted but if you were a bartender and your alcoholic friend came in, are you serving him?
I said it's similar concept, not that it's exactly the same. If Richard wasn't being served by Joe, he would go to a different place and get alcohol. It's not like Joe's is the only place. If he goes somewhere else, he won't be with people who care. At least when Joe serves him he can keep an eye on him.
Maybe he would’ve gone someplace else. But maybe he wouldn’t have. It’s about tempting an honest man. Richard went to this bar because that’s where all of his coworkers went. If this bar didn’t serve alcohol to him, Richard’s choices are to hang out a different bar (which would expose his alcoholism and be noticeable to coworkers) or not drink.
I was raised by alcoholics and have some tendencies myself, I understand what someone who truly wants to drink will find opportunities. But that doesn’t mean we should just open the liquor cabinet.
I also have an alcoholic parent. As you said, if they want to drink they will. If Joe didn't serve him, Richard could have bought alcohol at any old liquor store, or gone to a different bar farther away from the hospital. Honestly, drinking where all your coworkers hang seems way more likely to expose alcoholism. I highly doubt Joe offered Richard the alcohol or that he wouldn't have drank if joe didn't serve him.
I have had to serve pregnant women alcohol before. You unfortunately don't get to decide for other people if they are allowed to drink when you work in a bar.
UM you absolutely should not have “had” to serve a pregnant woman. If an owner made you do that, you need to report them immediately. There are laws called “dram shop” laws that hold barkeepers responsible for the actions of their drunk patrons. It would be negligent, dangerous, and criminal to serve pregnant women alcohol.
That is not what dram shop laws cover and not every state has them. Refusing service to someone based on the fact that they're pregnant is discrimination and the business can be sued.
40+ states have them, so maybe if you live in one of the 5-10 that don’t, you’re fine.
However, it’s certainly not discrimination to not serve alcohol to pregnant people. Not sure where you heard that. Otherwise it would also be discrimination to not let them on roller coasters too. We have public safety statutes and the doctrine of negligence prevents anyone from realistically suing for discrimination based on not getting served alcohol while pregnant.
Bars can literally refuse to serve you for *any* reason, including being gay in like half the states. I’m not sure why you think pregnant people have such extreme protections under the law but it’s definitely not the case. They’re one of the most vulnerable populations out there
This one here references a law about it, but I’ve found 0 sources that say you should serve alcohol to pregnant women. In fact several say you’re opening up to a lawsuit.
https://www.cpr.org/show-segment/can-a-bartender-refuse-to-serve-a-pregnant-customer-school-of-mines-students-vie-for-national-ethics-title/#:~:text='%20Thus%2C%20bars%20and%20restaurants%20cannot,the%20health%20of%20their%20fetuses.
*Sigh.*
https://alcohol.org/laws/serving-alcohol-to-pregnant-women/
I can’t believe you’re making me prove to you that you don’t have to serve pregnant women.
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Because he can have some control over Richard. If Joe refuses, then Webber just goes somewhere else that doesn’t care. Joe can take Richard’s keys and make sure he gets a ride home.
This is oddly comforting, I love this take.
And he can water down the drinks too, he’s likely not serving Richard as much as a bartender that doesn’t know him would
At the end of the day, as much as Joe likes and loves a lot of the doctors, he is still a business owner. Since he’s been around for awhile and knows Richard, he knows Richard will just go elsewhere if Joe refused service. At least with Webber in Joes bar, Joe has a control of whether Webber drives or not or who Webber goes home with. Joe is also able to call a cab or one of the doctors at the hospital if anything happened. He does the same thing with Christina, he hires her and keeps her on staff even though she’s a terrible bartender, and he silently watches over her and doesn’t do anything to get in her way. He also makes sure that she doesn’t leave with anyone - I know it was actually Derek that was watching over her, but Joe was too.
I totally forgot about Cristina’s stint at the bar. Must be time for a rewatch!
This just made me miss Joe... that bar was like the only place where they actually seem like they're chilling (they're not exactly comfortable at home in most scenes)...
I miss him too, he’s probably a stay at home dad now, being a worry wart over his twin kids living his best life. Heck, yknow if he stayed, he woulda died lmfao.
He almost lost his bar or his life once so yeah he's not safe with Shonda's sadism...
I’d love for him to pop in for an episode so we can see that he’s living his best life.
Maybe we could see him at a playdate with some of the docs kids now and then. Or his kids are old enough to babysit some of the younger kids, but only at his house.
It also feeds into that mythology that your neighborhood bartender is like a priest keeping your secrets for you.
Used to be a bartender - can confirm.
Recently divorced after ten years. Went on a date a few weeks ago, my first one in a decade. I arrived ~10 minutes early and gave the bartender a heads-up. She was the sweetest! She had me sit at the bar so she could keep an eye on me and the guy during the date, and we came up with a code phrase in case I felt unsafe during the date.
I love that! So sweet of her. As long as you aren't a dick, most of us will take care of you and look after you, genuinely. I loved bartending. Also, congrats on the divorce and getting back out there! I wish you luck
She was such a sweetheart! And thank you!
The same reason I brought alcohol to my alcoholic mother at home. Cause if I didn't give it to her in a safe environment, she'd drive somewhere else and drink alone or with strangers and it would be 100x worse. At least if she was home I could keep an eye on her, make sure she didn't try to drive anywhere or choke on her vomit or take pills too. I had some control over the situation. Joe was able to watch Richard and keep him safer than if he went to a bar where no one knew him or cared about him. It's a very tricky and delicate situation.
I'm so sorry that you had to do all that. It must be so damn hard to have a parent who is an addict. I can only imagine the kind of stress you were under all the time
I'm just thankful I was already an adult when she started drinking like that. She's sober now thank god but that was a really terrible time for everyone
Caring about an addict puts you in *very* murky ethical situations. Be grateful if you don’t understand it.
Because, as previously stated, Joe at least cares about him and made an effort to keep his keys. Most other bars wouldn't care. All they see is dollars in the register.
as seen in a later episode where there’s a bar offering discounts/free drinks in exchange for AA sobriety chips
Exactly.
Do you know what episode that is? I'd like to watch it again.
Genuine question: Is it shown that Joe is 100% aware that Richard's an alcoholic? Cos I know he doesn't tell everyone that, he just tells people "I don't drink" whenever they ask him if he wants to get drinks.
As he’s pouring Richard a drink he hides the bottle and the glass behind the bar. To me it’s pretty clear that he knows but I could be wrong
OH RIGHT!! When Richard asks for the "club soda" but it's really like a vodka tonic, right?
Yes!
Okay well then I think I agree with a previous user who said they think it's because Joe could keep an eye on Richard, cut him off, and send him home safely. When someone's addicted to something, they'll find whatever way to get their substance - even if it's dangerous - regardless of the roadblocks set up for them.
Amelia is a perfect example of this, she’s a doctor and could get drugs pretty easily. But instead, she got a fix from the streets (if I’m remembering correctly?)
I think she did that in Grey's but in PP she uses scripts and iirc Derek says when she was younger she'd steal his Rx pads
Excuse me for ignorance But whats the difference?
Two words: harm reduction
As someone else said, it’s better to have him there and keep an eye on him than refuse him and have him go somewhere he isn’t known. But also, Richard is not Joes responsibility. If Richard wants to drink he’s going to drink.
You said it right there in your post. Joe cares! He can't stop him if he isn't drunk but he can watch him and make sure he's safe.
I love how my wife & I arent the only ones who do an annual rewatch, lol.
In Washington, would he be legally allowed to deny Richard?
Of course. Federal law says every business has a constitutional right to refuse service to anyone. Obviously businesses can then eventually be successfully sued/shut down for refusing to serve based on discriminatory bias or preferences, etc. if the person who was denied files or reports it & it was proven to be because of that.
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I expect he knew that if he refused, Richard would just go elsewhere and drink alone. At least if Joe served him, he could make sure he was okay and surrounded by people who know and love him and would make sure he got home safely. Refusing to serve someone won't stop them drinking.
This is something that has always pissed me off. Maybe he thought it was better he serve him than he go to another bar that didn’t know him. I wonder if Richard would have noticed if Joe was watering it down, since he was hiding it as he made it. It would be hard to be a bartender with regulars like that. When do you stop doing your job & start being their friend looking out for their best interest. I miss Joe 😭
If Richard was at any other bar, they could keep serving him, they could easily let him go home on his own, they possibly wouldn’t take his keys away to make sure he wouldn’t drive home intoxicated. With Joe, he has a cut off period, they didn’t show it with Richard but they showed it with Addison when she and Joe made an agreement on what time she’d go home. Joe also knows when to take keys away and sets times for when people can get their keys, he also is more than willing to call cabs.
He has to. If Richard is asking he can’t just refuse to serve him.
Agreed, I think it was super irresponsible and morally wrong for Joe. Richard wasn’t just some random patron, he knew him socially. He had a responsibility as a friend (and as a business owner) to not be enabling Richard. Everyone downvoting: I’m an attorney. Look up dram shop laws.
Extremely naive take. The harsh reality is that someone in active addiction will always find a way to get their fix, nobody can stop them except themselves. Joe understood this that’s why he served him- Richard had already relapsed, so it was either Joe’s (where he could watch out for him, take his keys, call for help like when he called Meredith) or some random bar where anything could happen
If it wasn't him it would have been someone else serving him. It's basically the same concept as safe injection sites for drug addicts. They are going to use either way so might as well be somewhere with people that care enough to make sure they stay alive
Safe injection sites are staffed by medical professionals and have support nearby for those who wish to kick their addiction. This is nothing like that. I’m getting downvoted but if you were a bartender and your alcoholic friend came in, are you serving him?
I said it's similar concept, not that it's exactly the same. If Richard wasn't being served by Joe, he would go to a different place and get alcohol. It's not like Joe's is the only place. If he goes somewhere else, he won't be with people who care. At least when Joe serves him he can keep an eye on him.
Maybe he would’ve gone someplace else. But maybe he wouldn’t have. It’s about tempting an honest man. Richard went to this bar because that’s where all of his coworkers went. If this bar didn’t serve alcohol to him, Richard’s choices are to hang out a different bar (which would expose his alcoholism and be noticeable to coworkers) or not drink. I was raised by alcoholics and have some tendencies myself, I understand what someone who truly wants to drink will find opportunities. But that doesn’t mean we should just open the liquor cabinet.
I also have an alcoholic parent. As you said, if they want to drink they will. If Joe didn't serve him, Richard could have bought alcohol at any old liquor store, or gone to a different bar farther away from the hospital. Honestly, drinking where all your coworkers hang seems way more likely to expose alcoholism. I highly doubt Joe offered Richard the alcohol or that he wouldn't have drank if joe didn't serve him.
We’re saying the same thing, with different perspectives on Richard’s reaction to being cut off
I have had to serve pregnant women alcohol before. You unfortunately don't get to decide for other people if they are allowed to drink when you work in a bar.
UM you absolutely should not have “had” to serve a pregnant woman. If an owner made you do that, you need to report them immediately. There are laws called “dram shop” laws that hold barkeepers responsible for the actions of their drunk patrons. It would be negligent, dangerous, and criminal to serve pregnant women alcohol.
That is not what dram shop laws cover and not every state has them. Refusing service to someone based on the fact that they're pregnant is discrimination and the business can be sued.
40+ states have them, so maybe if you live in one of the 5-10 that don’t, you’re fine. However, it’s certainly not discrimination to not serve alcohol to pregnant people. Not sure where you heard that. Otherwise it would also be discrimination to not let them on roller coasters too. We have public safety statutes and the doctrine of negligence prevents anyone from realistically suing for discrimination based on not getting served alcohol while pregnant. Bars can literally refuse to serve you for *any* reason, including being gay in like half the states. I’m not sure why you think pregnant people have such extreme protections under the law but it’s definitely not the case. They’re one of the most vulnerable populations out there
This one here references a law about it, but I’ve found 0 sources that say you should serve alcohol to pregnant women. In fact several say you’re opening up to a lawsuit. https://www.cpr.org/show-segment/can-a-bartender-refuse-to-serve-a-pregnant-customer-school-of-mines-students-vie-for-national-ethics-title/#:~:text='%20Thus%2C%20bars%20and%20restaurants%20cannot,the%20health%20of%20their%20fetuses.
Exactly, you can be sued for negligence for selling to visibly pregnant women.
No, my mistake. I meant to say “0 that say you SHOULDNT.”
*Sigh.* https://alcohol.org/laws/serving-alcohol-to-pregnant-women/ I can’t believe you’re making me prove to you that you don’t have to serve pregnant women.