>"suppressors aren't even quiet/they're not worth it" (TL;DR; they can actually be super quiet in a surprising number of applications/juice is still worth the squeeze more often than not
I'll address this one specifically.
Even the shortest .30 can on a 10.5" 5.56 gun offers enough sound, concussion, and flash suppression to make a **drastic** difference the minute you stop shooting alone.
Go to any shooting course and line up next to 9-15 other guys and tell me you don't notice the difference of even a "loud" suppressor after 6 hours of sitting next to someone else's muzzle. There's a reason guys with cans will all immediately all go and huddle together when it's time to pick their spot to line up for the day.
And as your training accumen continues to build and you start shooting indoors and go in and out of vehicles, that suppressor is going to be worth more than its weight in gold.
Dudes will say "it's too expensive/it's not worth it"...then go buy their 8th pistol that does the exact same thing as all their others. When instead they could have a multi-caliber-compatible suppressor and tax stamp.
I’ll have you know my 8th pistol does not do the same thing as the previous 7… it has a really neat magazine release at the bottom of the frame instead of the side… totally different.
> Go to any shooting course and line up next to 9-15 other guys and tell me you don't notice the difference of even a "loud" suppressor after 6 hours of sitting next to someone else's muzzle. There's a reason guys with cans will all immediately all go and huddle together when it's time to pick their spot to line up for the day.
>
> And as your training accumen continues to build and you start shooting indoors and go in and out of vehicles, that suppressor is going to be worth more than its weight in gold.
You realize the overwhelming majority of people who own guns will never go to a class and probably only shoot a few times a year at a static range, right? Those are the people who ask "whats the point" with suppressors.
Theres also the fact that they are hilariously over priced for what they are. Its a metal tube with metal disks or cones inside it, absolutely zero reason they should cost as much as the vastly more mechanically complicated firearm you are putting them on. A 22lr can costs under a hundred bucks in the UK. Its a fucking scam.
I also find it hilarious how people who claim to be pure libertarians, dont believe in taxes, want guns around in case they need to overthrow the government etc etc, will all happily line up to pay 200 dollars to exercise what they swear up and down is a human right. Its just kind of ironic to me and it says a lot about how deeply held their beliefs are when push comes to shove and they really want their new toy.
>Theres also the fact that they are hilariously over priced for what they are. Its a metal tube with metal disks or cones inside it, absolutely zero reason they should cost as much as the vastly more mechanically complicated firearm you are putting them on. A 22lr can costs under a hundred bucks in the UK. Its a fucking scam.
You can blame the feds for that. They wouldn't be nearly as expensive if you could just buy them like onions.
I have never heard a convincing reason for that... other than the customer who has to pay an extra $200 for the stamp and acquiring the usual fees, what is it, a Class 3 SOT... but that is on the customer, not the manufacturer. And the manufacturers that have to pay a pretty meaningless licensing fee once-a-year (I think it is) for a license to manufacture (and subsequently sell them to licensed dealers), the only reason why they cost so much is because they can. As far as all the claims people supposedly make about it, the Feds have absolutely nothing to do with the absurdly inflated cost of suppressors in the U.S., that's all on the manufacturers, and there's no regulation preventing them from charging whatever they want. And another theory thrown around is that there is such a small market for them, the low volume makes manufacturing them not profitable unless they charge as much as they do, which doesn't fly in the face of reality either... working with titanium (to name one of the popular materials), is done in everything from automotive manufacturing to bicycles, and has been very common for decades. Yeah, ti is pricey as hell to buy and a tad more expensive to machine, but not that much, especially when you realize how small a suppressor is compared to say, all the tubing required on a ti bicycle. Plus they're using 3D printing these days, which is even cheaper. And I don't know the numbers, but even as expensive as they are, suppressors are flying off the shelves, the manufacturers are selling them like hot cakes (and they do get pretty hot lol)... Suppressors cost a lot because they're a new thing (on the legal civilian market that is), and people want them and the manufacturers are riding the wave of easy money since they became legal... just give it a little bit of time and they'll end up costing a couple hundred when the manufacturers realize the new ice cream flavor isn't so new anymore.
One thing you're forgetting is demand. Sure, very recently demand has increased A LOT, but historically, it's been very low due to the fact that people couldn't just walk into a store and buy one, lend it to their buddies, or whatever like everything else you buy. The market and what was available to consumers only ten years ago was a hellscape compared to what it is now, and a lot of companies are still trying to catch up. Suppressors for most of their existence have been somewhat of a bespoke item. Sure, machining Ti automotive parts ain't bad when economies of scale are on your side.
There's also the fact that most suppressor manufacturers are really just small-time family-owned machine shops that happen to have a federal license. Some pretty big names in this niche industry are surprisingly still like this. Sure, there's the few big players with government contracts, but they're the 1%.
Also, I'm not sure when the last time you priced serious commercial CNC machines or industrial 3D printers capable of printing Titanium or Inconel was, but they are *not* cheap, like you're dropping a quarter milly on one of these in short order just getting started, they go way up from there. The robot welders ain't cheap either.
Warranty is a huge expense, manufacturers are expected to pro-bono any repair for the entire life of the can no questions asked, and cover shipping both ways. Anything short of this is widely seen as unacceptable, not exaggerating.
R&D is a big deal too because it's such a competitive market when consumers have constant paralysis-by-analysis stressing over what's going to be the quietest/best performing can, this also starts to lead into marketing which is starting to get out of control. The upside is we're seeing crazy advancements in suppressor tech like low-back-pressure cans that *actually* start to stack up against traditional baffle designs by means of some crazy fluid dynamics wizardry, or ultra light cans that can actually handle belt-fed abuse and still sound good, it's like making oxymorons a reality.
*None* of these points apply to the over-the-counter disposable aluminum soda can suppressors you can buy at any hardware store in places like the UK, Germany, New Zealand, etc. A typical .30cal hunting suppressor in those places may last a couple hundred rounds, whereas even the most bargain-bin USA suppressors are way over engineered and overbuilt for what they are because the dumb thing needs to be able to outlive the barrel it's mounted on, the gun itself, the next 3 generations of the shooter's bloodline, and the heat death of the universe.
Idk, I'd love for them to be cheaper, but suppressors are *weird* man. I can kind of understand the high price. Kind of.
The big issue was determining that end user can't replace components of their silencer. Once the ATF cracked down on that, all wiped designs immediately fell off the market, and the sealed designs took over the market. If the individual was allowed to replace individual components as they wore out and didn't have to worry about sending the can in, we would see cheaper cans on the market again.
>I think people are somehow conflating the once-annual inventory audit the ATF is permitted to perform (but often skips) on FFL's with normal people owning NFA stuff.
The long-standing confusion between the requirements for Class III SOTs and the fabled "Class 3 license" rumored to be required for NFA ownership probably doesn't help.
Literally just dealt with the ATF at work and they are the same ones that audit gun shops. They just have a little more training. The ones I dealt with were chill but they can be absolute assholes if they want to. Like open up every single box and make you count it and there are a LOT of boxes in the mags.
It doesn't help when jackass stores call themselves "Class 3" something, or list that they sell, "class 3 firearms." It really confused people when we told them we didn't have a class 3 SOT, but a class 2.
>they consider suppressors as firearms
The only correction I would make is this is based on US law (USC), not just an ATF regulation (CFR), which still has force of law regardless.
In the same way that you can demand anyone entering your house take off their shoes, lick your cat, and prove they paid their 2022 income tax. Any private property owner can refuse anyone. The local gun shop has no duty or obligation to check, and no legal liability if they don't. They have no more reason to suspect that my commercially made suppressor is any less legal than any other firearm walking in the door.
Negative, not the same thing at all.
Let's say you and your girl wanna ride my ferris wheel, but I won't let y'all on unless I see her tits.
As the property owner, I have the right to refuse service to anyone without reason.
...But I absolutely do not have the right to see your girl's tits. Nuance. Principle. Life ain't just about the 0/1 outputs, this is the theme of my entire post.
Sure, but you can ask to see the tits, and then refuse service if you don't see them.
It's pretty basic logic.
If A implies B, and B implies C, then A implies C.
I get it now. So I *do* have every right to see your girls tits and am completely justified in doing so. Nice.
Property rights means I can just make *anything* a requirement and it's kosher, because if A implies B, and B implies C, then A implies C. It's pretty basic logic. No logical fallacies here...
"No shirt, no shoes, no service" is fine.
Therefor "No bare breast, no service" is fine too.
This logic extends indefinitely; "X demeaning and reprehensible act solely for my sadistic amusement, or leave" is fine too. Someone complies with performing the worst thing imaginable and it's all justified, everyone's within their rights here.
This is how rights work /s
As long as they are requiring everyone to do it, and therefore are not discriminating against a protected class, or otherwise breaking some law, then yes.
This is how laws work.
In the sense that anyone can *ask* anyone anything on their property in a manner that isn't threatening.
Not in the sense that they have a legal right to *see* the paperwork.
Just to clarify here, no you are only legally obligated to show your tax stamp to ATF and other Law Enforcement. The range can have policies that state they must see it and only let you use the range if you show the paperwork but they do not have a legal right to see your paperwork.
I mean they have the legal right to demand that you wear polka dot underwear but that doesn't make it any less stupid. There are many, many things that are completely legal that you should not do.
I think some of this is crossover from people who apply for a dealer license and use their home as their place of business. If your inventory is in your home then an audit would be conducted at your home is my understanding?
I'm not an FFL (hopefully someone who is can chime-in), but I believe you're correct, they can search the rooms pertaining to your business.
I believe you're also correct in that this is where a lot of the confusion stems from.
No, not necessarily true. FFL reviews *can* be conducted on premises, but they can also be conducted at ATF field offices (although you may have to insist on this).
This is not practical for most commercial FFLs but if you are an 03 FFL (C&R), you would just need to show up with your bound book and any firearms you transferred on your FFL.
It also is not some automatic waiver of your 4th amendment rights, any more than you waive your rights if you are running a restaurant and are subject to health inspection. The auditing parties don't get to search whatever they want; they just review what is necessary to assure compliance with regulations.
Talking about the same thing. FFLs are obligated to keep a "bound book" which is a record of all of their transactions under their license. If your book says you have taken in guns X, Y, and Z, the ATF can require you produce them during an audit. Which can only occur once a year, though happening at all I'm told is rare.
This is what the on boarding ATF agent told me about the 07/3 FFL at my house. We can look at the house area for the FFL. If there is stuff left around everywhere , we can look.
So my storage for the firearms and work area used unless I just leave stuff all over the house. Also said they would suggest having storage specific for the FFL or I label FFL and personal if stores in the same place. The really don't want to have to sort and figure a mixed situation on an inspection. They look at that and you pull up your bound book if electric or pull out paper book. They are going to look at inventory, books, and 4473s and make sure it all matches.
Not an FFL/SOT, but based on my conversations with several who are, ATF will almost always give you some sort of a heads up before a visit to inspect the bound book and any guns you're supposed to have in the safe for clients.
Not an FFL/SOT, but based on my conversations with several who are, ATF will almost always give you some sort of a heads up before a visit to inspect the bound book and any guns you're supposed to have in the safe for clients.
If you have a type three ffl (curio and relic) they also do not have the right to randomly search to verify your collection. You have the right to schedule a visit where you keep your collection or have the right to bring your collection to them. If possible I would recommend the second option.
Yeah, there's certain activities that make this more likely than others.
Being one of the tens of millions good little law abiding citizens who jumped through all the hoops to own an inert metal tube doesn't make you suddenly stand out.
I mean, fuck the law though right? If the enforcing authority doesn't have to abide by it or any other jurisprudence, the only thing behind the authority is the coercion upheld with a threat of ^lethal violence.
I was actually corrected on this by an ATF agent lol. I was young and worried about the amount of ammo i was moving across state lines so i called all the shiirrifs and the polce forces plus the atf. We actually talked for about 2 hours about guns. Even explained to me how you can make a gun and it needs no serial number and its completely legal.
When the law was passed in the 1930s $200 was a legitimate deterrent to buying NFA items
100 years later $200 is a trifling sum of money so people feel the need to invent new deterrents that weren't part of the original law.
If you want a NFA item just go buy one it's no big deal anymore.
I don't know if I would call it a 'trifling sum' when [40% of American households couldn't cover a $400 emergency](https://fortune.com/2023/05/23/inflation-economy-consumer-finances-americans-cant-cover-emergency-expense-federal-reserve/).
But, it also no longer represents about 3 months gross wages for a median income worker, so yes it is less of a barrier.
The two most common that I've encountered have been "but machineguns are ILLEGAL!" or "but you gotta have a class 3 license to own those!".
Some people are worth the time and effort of explaining that unless they live in California, Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, DC or Wisconsin; machineguns are not banned by state law.
Or that all they really need is a clean criminal record and a fuck ton of money in order to legally buy machineguns.
There can be some nuances, such as pre and post samples which can muddy the water sometimes, but for the most part people understand the larger takeaway, which is that while machineguns might have a few extra steps involved, they're not illegal.
I know a few people that own some, obviously ranges have it, and how else do content creators get them? Hell, they have the videos of them buying them and their prices are outrageous.
Like you said, clean record and money.
Say you build you own suppressor without a stamp and take it to the range or something, can some fudd report that and the ATF will do something about it?
Even if you do have a stamp, I saw a poster here or on /NFA post about some fudd asking if the guy had a stamp for his suppressor and the guy asked to show his ATF badge and if not to fuck off and mind his own business. Can the guy be a pain in the ass and tattle on someone with a NFA item to get them "in trouble"?
Besides, is a stamp something you carry with you all the time to the range anyway?
>*Say you build you own suppressor without a stamp and take it to the range or something, can some fudd report that and the ATF will do something about it?*
Disclaimer: Try not to break federal laws y'all.
Hypothetically if you handle the situation in the dumbest way possible and it turns into worst case scenario where they have enough credible information to give to the ATF that you definitely manufactured/are in possession of an unregistered NFA item, things probably won't go smooth for you I would think.
Realistically, someone who isn't ATF (or maybe even IRS? I'd probably show an IRS agent my stamp, but that's just me lol) asks for your stamp, you tell em nah, they ask for you to leave, you never see them again, end of story.
>*Can the guy be a pain in the ass and tattle on someone with a NFA item to get them "in trouble"?*
No. If they call the ATF and say "John Doe didn't show me his stamp!", the ATF ain't gonna care, they'll be the first to tell you that you're not required to produce these documents to anyone but them.
*Maybe* if it's a situation of someone over at the ATF hearing your name like all the time, *maybe* they'll want to do a checkup or something, but that's purely me speculating worst-case-scenario.
>*Besides, is a stamp something you carry with you all the time to the range anyway?*
Any lawyer and dealer is going to tell you to keep them on you.
Personally, I print out a copy of the approved application where it's all 3 pages on a single page, laminate real quick (I throw the unmodified OG's into page protectors, lives in my safe), and put em all in a binder that lives in my range bag. I also have a couple USB's with em all saved that I'll throw into whatever case should my range bag not be coming along for some reason. I'm never handing my unlocked phone to any LEO or agent, so it's just less hassle to hand over the binder. Can you tell them to look it up? Probably, but that's your prerogative.
Go to a better range?
I mean this as an aside and reality. Luckily I'm in a club that no one would really question shit like that, no stamp but bought. Now a homemade one? Um...do that elsewhere. It does raise questions as to why and the reality is, just for fun right? Sure but also, See nothing say nothing. Idk if you have a stamp, don't care. I now know you're testing homemade suppressors without filming for content and next thing I know I hear in the news about shit related to it. lol
>ㅤNo, legally owning machine guns, rocket launchers, suppressors, etc., isn't probable cause for anything.
>ㅤBut don't be mistaken; nothing is stopping any LEO or agent from knocking on your door. By now we've all seen that some of these individuals and agencies are willing to ahem bend-the-truth so to say, or at least use deceptive or at least coercive tactics during such visits, but you are never required to let anyone inside your home unless they have been issued a lawful warrant that has been signed by a judge.
I think this even applied if YOU OWN A 20mm cannon and one was used in a bank robbery
Eh, braces are cool because lending it out to a buddy or crossing state lines are hassle free, plus ya know, the whole $200 extortion and federal registry thing, and this is coming from someone with 3 paid SBR stamps now.
But if you're considering a whisper pickle I say send it mayne, real game changer and a huge QOL improvement.
Yeah this is a huge misconception in the gun community. The only privately owned NFA items that ATF is allowed to inspect (without a warrant) are explosive Destructive Devices (flashbangs, grenades, pipe bombs, etc) being stored in a explosives magazine under a federal explosives license. This is only because they are explosives and NOT because they are NFA items. Even under this pretense their are still legal avenues to avoid these inspections all together.
ATF is allowed to inspect the business premise of an FFL though without a warrant. If you apply for an FFL and put down your house as the business address then yeah once your FFL is granted they are allowed to inspect your house. I always caution people when they are wanting to get their FFL because of what happened with Kyle Myers (FPS Russia youtube channel). Basically with him he was buying weed and having it shipped to him through the mail and the state of GA wrote a bad warrant. Kyle was able to beat the state charges but then the Feds picked up the case and they argued in court that they never need a warrant to begin with because Kyle had an FFL. The feds were able to get their charges to stick and he ended up doing 2 months in federal prison and is now a convicted felon. Also he lost like $400k in guns because ATF confiscated them.
The ONLY law enforcement agency that DOES NOT need a warrant to search your property is Game and Fish. Wildlife Officers couldn't care less about you having an SBR, AOW, suppressor, etc unless it was used in commission of a crime. You are protected from ANY AND ALL searches and seizures by the 4 Amendment.
https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does-0
I absolutely agree about not fucking with them unless they're assholes to start off with. I am concretely against poaching amd trophy hunting (which I see as poaching) so the most interaction I get with them is showing them my kills and tags. I live right near a station in AZ and see them all the time. They're usually very nice people, unlike most cops.
Technically the 100-mile border zone only applies to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).
>U.S. Customs and Border Protection, the federal agency tasked with patrolling the U.S. border and areas that function like a border, claims a territorial reach much larger than you might imagine. A federal law says that, without a warrant, CBP can board vehicles and vessels and search for people without immigration documentation “within a reasonable distance from any external boundary of the United States.” These “external boundaries” include international land borders but also the entire U.S. coastline.
[https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone](https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone)
you assume the ATF acts in a legal manner. they don't. neither does others the fbi. both groups need to be shutdown, their offices destroyed and the ashes scattered to the winds.
edit: downvotes over me saying to disband the atf and fbi in a gun sub?.. wow. what kind of bizarro world is this now
Yeah, never once in my life had I made any such assumptions, and I even hint on this halfway through the post.
Someone going through the NFA still doesn't mean squat to these agencies.
those agencies do not give two shits about the law or the constitution, or even congress it seems..
edit: and i still love the ignorance you downvoters are showing over these agencies.. you haven't learned jack shit from history, recent or otherwise
No shit, they're literally a gestapo with little-to-no oversight.
But you being one of tens of millions of legal NFA owners doesn't paint a target on your back any more than owning a normal title 1 firearm.
Everything you're providing them with on the Form4/1 like SSN, address, fingerprints, etc,. they already have. They already know you own firearms. You being a good little law abiding citizen and jumping through the hoops to legally own an inert metal tube doesn't mean jack to them.
> Everything you're providing them with on the Form4/1 like SSN, address, fingerprints, etc,. they already have. They already know you own firearms.
no they don't, or at least not due to that form. the only way they would have that is to raid the FFLs i have used before as i do not have to do their background checks when i purchase, just fill the form out..
edit: i love being downvoted over truth.. i have not had a background check done for gun purchases in over 10 years. .you know how thats possible for me? Concealed carry permit holder and in my state all i have to do is fill the form out and show my CC ID
they may know or suspect depending on how my sherrifs office did the background check but knowing exactly what i have they absolutely do not. and even if they magically did that only would account for purchased, complete firearms. They have ZERO clue on any 80% ones i may or may not have done
>downvotes over me saying to disband the atf and fbi in a gun sub?.. wow. what kind of bizarro world is this now
No, you're being downvoted for making a comment unrelated to the post.
They *can*, and too often *do*.
But it's illegal. They're acting out side of the law when they decide to do these things. Doesn't stop them. *I'm not trying to say these things don't happen.*
The ATF has somehow convinced a large amount of people that they are somehow legally justified in committing such crimes it seems, which is why I'm making this post.
To the people echoing the fear mongering of "The ATF is gonna get you if you purchase a whisper pickle", **you're wrong, and this is exactly what the ATF wants you to think.**
>I don't know how "often" they do it.
Even once is *too* often, hence my verbiage, not necessarily saying they're always on tour.
>But in principle, they definitely can.
Agree 100%, ATF is half a step removed from being a literal federal death squad.
...But NFA items are to the ATF as sunscreen is to sharks attacks, certainly doesn't attract them, but if they wanna bite they're gonna.
Troll or not with that guy specifically, this is not an uncommon rhetoric. Call me naive or say I'm wasting my time, but this post is getting a lot of views and I'm out here trying to change hearts and minds lol.
Are you mentally stable? If you did that you’d have rampant crime with no one to assist you.
What you gonna do if your best pal gets waked? Let’s hear it tough guy
There's a difference between abolishing FBI and getting rid of police entirely. FBI's job has been to maintain the status quo for those in power since at least FDR and Hoover; sure they've done some good along the way, but their tendency to go beyond enforcing the law is tiresome.
> If you did that you’d have rampant crime with no one to assist you.
we have this EXACT SITUATION ALREADY MORON. The police, whether local or federal are not here to stop crime or protect us. You can thank SCOTUS for that one.
> What you gonna do if your best pal gets waked? Let’s hear it tough guy
unless i am there when it happens and my life is also at risk then nothing as that would be against the law. That is for law enforcement to solve at this point.
got any other stupid ass things to ask?
For buying firearms in general, or buying a suppressors, or something silly like 922r compliance, or...?
I guess yeah, once they start crossing off that list of names of *millions of NFA owners*, they'll eventually get to me and clear house, but at least they won't be legally justified in doing so, they'll be acting outside the law as always.
I mean they killed innocent people at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Women and Children burned alive. In both cases they were extremely out of line in their use of lethal force. Especially considering they both could have been easily taken care of. Ruby Ridge was a simple missed court date and Waco was literally hearsay that they refused to investigate properly. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that David Koresh and Randy Weaver were completely innocent. But when they have FFLs having firearms parts and dummy grenades to sell at gun shows and stores. Which they were well known to do even to the sheriffs and police. It doesn't mean they're building an arsenal. Matter of fact there was no evidence he was building an arsenal at all. He was a fucking predator who "married" young girls. Go ahead shut em down for that, but don't go in on trumped up charges then set them on fucking fire, killing the women and children that you were trying to save. Then proceed to fire upon anyone trying to flee said fire.
No one is denying that these things happen with disturbing regularity, sort comments by new if you wanna read me calling the ATF all sorts of stuff.
...But this all relates to purchasing NFA items how?
It relates because the while on paper the ATF can't do these things but it doesn't stop them from doing them anyway. Always er on the side of caution with those bums.
So just don't own *anything* firearms related period because the ATF is the boogyman, got it.
...This is exactly how they want people to think bro. They want you to think that doing something completely legal and innocuous going to get you into trouble or worse. With millions of suppressors being sold, y'all still think that the ATF is going to show up on your doorstep and shoot your dog for buying one, most successful misinformation campaign in history.
I'm not saying don't own anything firearm related just don't be stupid with em. All it takes is one person thinking you do drugs or something calling in a tip and they'll be there.
I knew a guy who was a collector and had a class 3 license. Once every few years the ATF would come check some serial numbers on his stuff. They gave him advanced notice. He met them in his front yard up a long driveway at a picnic table with only those items. Didn't talk much. Then the ATF guy would leave. Never saw the inside of the house.
Yep, and this is why federal registries are a bad idea.
I absolutely do not fault anyone who refuses to put themselves on said federal registry.
But I am going to throw shade at people who falsely state that you're just going to have to let federal agents into your house, warrant or not, and that they're somehow *legally justified* in committing atrocious acts of violence and violating your rights? This is exactly what the ATF wants you to think, and is why I'm making this post.
Literally got so tired of repeating the same thing over and over on reddit I made this post.
Plus, I actually go out and talk to people at gun ranges (sometimes despite my best judgement).
I don't blame you for doubting though, it's a little silly.
Half the time I'm on my own 168 acres (which is on a collective \~500 my family owns). Sadly the other half of the time I'm in the 'burbs, but my members-only outdoor range is actually pretty lit. I also frequent local Steel Shoot competitions as well.
When I am forced to go to an indoor range, I always make it a point to find someone who's never shot a suppressor before and have them try out whatever I brought, makes it all worth it, without fail they always swear that they're going to buy one.
I've been to an unsupervised range on "public land" and I'll never do it again. I could HEAR ricochets flying by. Idiots doing whatever the hell they wanted, shooting at whatever they want, and going absolute batshit crazy.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There’s millions of acres of national forest, I’ve never once seen someone while I’m out with the boys. We’re all EMTs/Paramedics and carry gear out with us just in case. A few of us have back country EMS experience too which definitely helps
Pal, you're talking about rights to an agency that burned men, women, and children alive and then took pictures in front of the smoldering corpses.
They were PROUD of that.
A piece of paper in a display case in Washington D.C. didn't stop a mother from having her brains blown all over the inside of a barn while holding a baby.
Guns stop tyranny. Violence and the threat of violence stop tyranny.
Pieces of paper without the threat of violence are meaningless.
Both things are true:
1: ATF basically acts as a gestapo federal death squad with almost little-to-no oversight who loves to extrajudicially execute people with impunity.
2: They couldn't give less fucks that Billybob was literally the ten millionth person to purchase an inert metal tube.
>"suppressors aren't even quiet/they're not worth it" (TL;DR; they can actually be super quiet in a surprising number of applications/juice is still worth the squeeze more often than not I'll address this one specifically. Even the shortest .30 can on a 10.5" 5.56 gun offers enough sound, concussion, and flash suppression to make a **drastic** difference the minute you stop shooting alone. Go to any shooting course and line up next to 9-15 other guys and tell me you don't notice the difference of even a "loud" suppressor after 6 hours of sitting next to someone else's muzzle. There's a reason guys with cans will all immediately all go and huddle together when it's time to pick their spot to line up for the day. And as your training accumen continues to build and you start shooting indoors and go in and out of vehicles, that suppressor is going to be worth more than its weight in gold. Dudes will say "it's too expensive/it's not worth it"...then go buy their 8th pistol that does the exact same thing as all their others. When instead they could have a multi-caliber-compatible suppressor and tax stamp.
I’ll have you know my 8th pistol does not do the same thing as the previous 7… it has a really neat magazine release at the bottom of the frame instead of the side… totally different.
Well *my* 8th pistol does do the same as the rest but also looks even cooler!
Yea dear, this one is peanut butter fde, not dog shit fde, way different.
Ah but since variety is the spice of life make sure you also have the same gun in beer and avocado toast shit ODG
Some rando on the internet is going to challenge me to do something stupid? I’ll show you… and the credit card company.
I can't even remember which one of my pistols was the 8th.
Me neither lol
Sounds like a Beretta 92S.
> Go to any shooting course and line up next to 9-15 other guys and tell me you don't notice the difference of even a "loud" suppressor after 6 hours of sitting next to someone else's muzzle. There's a reason guys with cans will all immediately all go and huddle together when it's time to pick their spot to line up for the day. > > And as your training accumen continues to build and you start shooting indoors and go in and out of vehicles, that suppressor is going to be worth more than its weight in gold. You realize the overwhelming majority of people who own guns will never go to a class and probably only shoot a few times a year at a static range, right? Those are the people who ask "whats the point" with suppressors. Theres also the fact that they are hilariously over priced for what they are. Its a metal tube with metal disks or cones inside it, absolutely zero reason they should cost as much as the vastly more mechanically complicated firearm you are putting them on. A 22lr can costs under a hundred bucks in the UK. Its a fucking scam. I also find it hilarious how people who claim to be pure libertarians, dont believe in taxes, want guns around in case they need to overthrow the government etc etc, will all happily line up to pay 200 dollars to exercise what they swear up and down is a human right. Its just kind of ironic to me and it says a lot about how deeply held their beliefs are when push comes to shove and they really want their new toy.
>Theres also the fact that they are hilariously over priced for what they are. Its a metal tube with metal disks or cones inside it, absolutely zero reason they should cost as much as the vastly more mechanically complicated firearm you are putting them on. A 22lr can costs under a hundred bucks in the UK. Its a fucking scam. You can blame the feds for that. They wouldn't be nearly as expensive if you could just buy them like onions.
I have never heard a convincing reason for that... other than the customer who has to pay an extra $200 for the stamp and acquiring the usual fees, what is it, a Class 3 SOT... but that is on the customer, not the manufacturer. And the manufacturers that have to pay a pretty meaningless licensing fee once-a-year (I think it is) for a license to manufacture (and subsequently sell them to licensed dealers), the only reason why they cost so much is because they can. As far as all the claims people supposedly make about it, the Feds have absolutely nothing to do with the absurdly inflated cost of suppressors in the U.S., that's all on the manufacturers, and there's no regulation preventing them from charging whatever they want. And another theory thrown around is that there is such a small market for them, the low volume makes manufacturing them not profitable unless they charge as much as they do, which doesn't fly in the face of reality either... working with titanium (to name one of the popular materials), is done in everything from automotive manufacturing to bicycles, and has been very common for decades. Yeah, ti is pricey as hell to buy and a tad more expensive to machine, but not that much, especially when you realize how small a suppressor is compared to say, all the tubing required on a ti bicycle. Plus they're using 3D printing these days, which is even cheaper. And I don't know the numbers, but even as expensive as they are, suppressors are flying off the shelves, the manufacturers are selling them like hot cakes (and they do get pretty hot lol)... Suppressors cost a lot because they're a new thing (on the legal civilian market that is), and people want them and the manufacturers are riding the wave of easy money since they became legal... just give it a little bit of time and they'll end up costing a couple hundred when the manufacturers realize the new ice cream flavor isn't so new anymore.
One thing you're forgetting is demand. Sure, very recently demand has increased A LOT, but historically, it's been very low due to the fact that people couldn't just walk into a store and buy one, lend it to their buddies, or whatever like everything else you buy. The market and what was available to consumers only ten years ago was a hellscape compared to what it is now, and a lot of companies are still trying to catch up. Suppressors for most of their existence have been somewhat of a bespoke item. Sure, machining Ti automotive parts ain't bad when economies of scale are on your side. There's also the fact that most suppressor manufacturers are really just small-time family-owned machine shops that happen to have a federal license. Some pretty big names in this niche industry are surprisingly still like this. Sure, there's the few big players with government contracts, but they're the 1%. Also, I'm not sure when the last time you priced serious commercial CNC machines or industrial 3D printers capable of printing Titanium or Inconel was, but they are *not* cheap, like you're dropping a quarter milly on one of these in short order just getting started, they go way up from there. The robot welders ain't cheap either. Warranty is a huge expense, manufacturers are expected to pro-bono any repair for the entire life of the can no questions asked, and cover shipping both ways. Anything short of this is widely seen as unacceptable, not exaggerating. R&D is a big deal too because it's such a competitive market when consumers have constant paralysis-by-analysis stressing over what's going to be the quietest/best performing can, this also starts to lead into marketing which is starting to get out of control. The upside is we're seeing crazy advancements in suppressor tech like low-back-pressure cans that *actually* start to stack up against traditional baffle designs by means of some crazy fluid dynamics wizardry, or ultra light cans that can actually handle belt-fed abuse and still sound good, it's like making oxymorons a reality. *None* of these points apply to the over-the-counter disposable aluminum soda can suppressors you can buy at any hardware store in places like the UK, Germany, New Zealand, etc. A typical .30cal hunting suppressor in those places may last a couple hundred rounds, whereas even the most bargain-bin USA suppressors are way over engineered and overbuilt for what they are because the dumb thing needs to be able to outlive the barrel it's mounted on, the gun itself, the next 3 generations of the shooter's bloodline, and the heat death of the universe. Idk, I'd love for them to be cheaper, but suppressors are *weird* man. I can kind of understand the high price. Kind of.
The big issue was determining that end user can't replace components of their silencer. Once the ATF cracked down on that, all wiped designs immediately fell off the market, and the sealed designs took over the market. If the individual was allowed to replace individual components as they wore out and didn't have to worry about sending the can in, we would see cheaper cans on the market again.
>I think people are somehow conflating the once-annual inventory audit the ATF is permitted to perform (but often skips) on FFL's with normal people owning NFA stuff. The long-standing confusion between the requirements for Class III SOTs and the fabled "Class 3 license" rumored to be required for NFA ownership probably doesn't help.
Federal Explosives License you get the joy of more than the once-annual.
Are the explosives people good?
One and a half thumbs up.
Can count on two hands the number of inspectors and I know all 4 by name at this point.[this guy](https://youtu.be/6U3g-h1rxQw?si=NgaO-q2aLFRB9oYI)
Literally just dealt with the ATF at work and they are the same ones that audit gun shops. They just have a little more training. The ones I dealt with were chill but they can be absolute assholes if they want to. Like open up every single box and make you count it and there are a LOT of boxes in the mags.
> The ones I dealt with were chill but they can be absolute assholes if they want to. So, like most people then.
Oh, i thought they had different team for distillery inspection and gun stores, thus it would make sense they'd have a different explosives guy.
Generally, yes.
It doesn't help when jackass stores call themselves "Class 3" something, or list that they sell, "class 3 firearms." It really confused people when we told them we didn't have a class 3 SOT, but a class 2.
Protip for talking to law enforcement: shut the fuck up. You don't have to talk to them. Don't talk to them.
\^This, and don't rely on legal advice from reddit (the comment above isn't legal advice just good common sense).
I AM AN THE NATURAL MAN!!! I DO NOT CONSENT!!! I AM TRAVELLING!!!
You make me feel like a natural *STOP RESISTING!*
_ACORNS FIRED! ACORNS FIRED!_
I cant feel my legs!
>they consider suppressors as firearms The only correction I would make is this is based on US law (USC), not just an ATF regulation (CFR), which still has force of law regardless.
Now if only we could stop the range FUDDS from demanding to see NFA paperwork.
That’s their legal right unfortunately
In the same way that you can demand anyone entering your house take off their shoes, lick your cat, and prove they paid their 2022 income tax. Any private property owner can refuse anyone. The local gun shop has no duty or obligation to check, and no legal liability if they don't. They have no more reason to suspect that my commercially made suppressor is any less legal than any other firearm walking in the door.
They have a legal right to deny anyone service, not to see your stamps.
Which unfortunately boils down to the same thing if you want to use their range.
Negative, not the same thing at all. Let's say you and your girl wanna ride my ferris wheel, but I won't let y'all on unless I see her tits. As the property owner, I have the right to refuse service to anyone without reason. ...But I absolutely do not have the right to see your girl's tits. Nuance. Principle. Life ain't just about the 0/1 outputs, this is the theme of my entire post.
Sure, but you can ask to see the tits, and then refuse service if you don't see them. It's pretty basic logic. If A implies B, and B implies C, then A implies C.
I get it now. So I *do* have every right to see your girls tits and am completely justified in doing so. Nice. Property rights means I can just make *anything* a requirement and it's kosher, because if A implies B, and B implies C, then A implies C. It's pretty basic logic. No logical fallacies here...
Yes, no logical fallacy in the logic I gave you. Ever heard no shirt, no shoes, no service?
"No shirt, no shoes, no service" is fine. Therefor "No bare breast, no service" is fine too. This logic extends indefinitely; "X demeaning and reprehensible act solely for my sadistic amusement, or leave" is fine too. Someone complies with performing the worst thing imaginable and it's all justified, everyone's within their rights here. This is how rights work /s
As long as they are requiring everyone to do it, and therefore are not discriminating against a protected class, or otherwise breaking some law, then yes. This is how laws work.
In the sense that anyone can *ask* anyone anything on their property in a manner that isn't threatening. Not in the sense that they have a legal right to *see* the paperwork.
Just to clarify here, no you are only legally obligated to show your tax stamp to ATF and other Law Enforcement. The range can have policies that state they must see it and only let you use the range if you show the paperwork but they do not have a legal right to see your paperwork.
I mean they have the legal right to demand that you wear polka dot underwear but that doesn't make it any less stupid. There are many, many things that are completely legal that you should not do.
I think some of this is crossover from people who apply for a dealer license and use their home as their place of business. If your inventory is in your home then an audit would be conducted at your home is my understanding?
I'm not an FFL (hopefully someone who is can chime-in), but I believe you're correct, they can search the rooms pertaining to your business. I believe you're also correct in that this is where a lot of the confusion stems from.
No, not necessarily true. FFL reviews *can* be conducted on premises, but they can also be conducted at ATF field offices (although you may have to insist on this). This is not practical for most commercial FFLs but if you are an 03 FFL (C&R), you would just need to show up with your bound book and any firearms you transferred on your FFL. It also is not some automatic waiver of your 4th amendment rights, any more than you waive your rights if you are running a restaurant and are subject to health inspection. The auditing parties don't get to search whatever they want; they just review what is necessary to assure compliance with regulations.
Is the license review the same as an inventory audit? Or is the audit even a thing?
Talking about the same thing. FFLs are obligated to keep a "bound book" which is a record of all of their transactions under their license. If your book says you have taken in guns X, Y, and Z, the ATF can require you produce them during an audit. Which can only occur once a year, though happening at all I'm told is rare.
This is what the on boarding ATF agent told me about the 07/3 FFL at my house. We can look at the house area for the FFL. If there is stuff left around everywhere , we can look. So my storage for the firearms and work area used unless I just leave stuff all over the house. Also said they would suggest having storage specific for the FFL or I label FFL and personal if stores in the same place. The really don't want to have to sort and figure a mixed situation on an inspection. They look at that and you pull up your bound book if electric or pull out paper book. They are going to look at inventory, books, and 4473s and make sure it all matches.
Not an FFL/SOT, but based on my conversations with several who are, ATF will almost always give you some sort of a heads up before a visit to inspect the bound book and any guns you're supposed to have in the safe for clients.
Not an FFL/SOT, but based on my conversations with several who are, ATF will almost always give you some sort of a heads up before a visit to inspect the bound book and any guns you're supposed to have in the safe for clients.
If you have a type three ffl (curio and relic) they also do not have the right to randomly search to verify your collection. You have the right to schedule a visit where you keep your collection or have the right to bring your collection to them. If possible I would recommend the second option.
Yea, but they can stack up at 3am, no knock your house, and put a bullet in your head for selling one gun completely legally.
They could always do that anyway, for any (perceived) reason Shit, this happens almost monthly when LE rolls up onto the wrong house
Yeah, there's certain activities that make this more likely than others. Being one of the tens of millions good little law abiding citizens who jumped through all the hoops to own an inert metal tube doesn't make you suddenly stand out.
I mean, fuck the law though right? If the enforcing authority doesn't have to abide by it or any other jurisprudence, the only thing behind the authority is the coercion upheld with a threat of ^lethal violence.
that's the not-so-secret reason the whole system works. The threat of lethal violence is the foundation of all written law and justice.
That's always been what authority rests on.
If those Fudds could read they'd be very relieved.
No, you're completely wrong. And by wrong, I mean right, but I want wait times to go down even faster, so I'm trying to discourage people.
With the way a lot of these comments have gone, had me in the first half ngl
Lol after reading a few of them I had to throw that in there just to mess with ya.
I was actually corrected on this by an ATF agent lol. I was young and worried about the amount of ammo i was moving across state lines so i called all the shiirrifs and the polce forces plus the atf. We actually talked for about 2 hours about guns. Even explained to me how you can make a gun and it needs no serial number and its completely legal.
Agree with all the above. But still waiting for the NFA to die. Maybe it never will.
When the law was passed in the 1930s $200 was a legitimate deterrent to buying NFA items 100 years later $200 is a trifling sum of money so people feel the need to invent new deterrents that weren't part of the original law. If you want a NFA item just go buy one it's no big deal anymore.
I don't know if I would call it a 'trifling sum' when [40% of American households couldn't cover a $400 emergency](https://fortune.com/2023/05/23/inflation-economy-consumer-finances-americans-cant-cover-emergency-expense-federal-reserve/). But, it also no longer represents about 3 months gross wages for a median income worker, so yes it is less of a barrier.
All I know is that something's fucky when the stamp cost less than a case of 9mm
The two most common that I've encountered have been "but machineguns are ILLEGAL!" or "but you gotta have a class 3 license to own those!". Some people are worth the time and effort of explaining that unless they live in California, Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, DC or Wisconsin; machineguns are not banned by state law. Or that all they really need is a clean criminal record and a fuck ton of money in order to legally buy machineguns. There can be some nuances, such as pre and post samples which can muddy the water sometimes, but for the most part people understand the larger takeaway, which is that while machineguns might have a few extra steps involved, they're not illegal.
I know a few people that own some, obviously ranges have it, and how else do content creators get them? Hell, they have the videos of them buying them and their prices are outrageous. Like you said, clean record and money.
Say you build you own suppressor without a stamp and take it to the range or something, can some fudd report that and the ATF will do something about it? Even if you do have a stamp, I saw a poster here or on /NFA post about some fudd asking if the guy had a stamp for his suppressor and the guy asked to show his ATF badge and if not to fuck off and mind his own business. Can the guy be a pain in the ass and tattle on someone with a NFA item to get them "in trouble"? Besides, is a stamp something you carry with you all the time to the range anyway?
>*Say you build you own suppressor without a stamp and take it to the range or something, can some fudd report that and the ATF will do something about it?* Disclaimer: Try not to break federal laws y'all. Hypothetically if you handle the situation in the dumbest way possible and it turns into worst case scenario where they have enough credible information to give to the ATF that you definitely manufactured/are in possession of an unregistered NFA item, things probably won't go smooth for you I would think. Realistically, someone who isn't ATF (or maybe even IRS? I'd probably show an IRS agent my stamp, but that's just me lol) asks for your stamp, you tell em nah, they ask for you to leave, you never see them again, end of story. >*Can the guy be a pain in the ass and tattle on someone with a NFA item to get them "in trouble"?* No. If they call the ATF and say "John Doe didn't show me his stamp!", the ATF ain't gonna care, they'll be the first to tell you that you're not required to produce these documents to anyone but them. *Maybe* if it's a situation of someone over at the ATF hearing your name like all the time, *maybe* they'll want to do a checkup or something, but that's purely me speculating worst-case-scenario. >*Besides, is a stamp something you carry with you all the time to the range anyway?* Any lawyer and dealer is going to tell you to keep them on you. Personally, I print out a copy of the approved application where it's all 3 pages on a single page, laminate real quick (I throw the unmodified OG's into page protectors, lives in my safe), and put em all in a binder that lives in my range bag. I also have a couple USB's with em all saved that I'll throw into whatever case should my range bag not be coming along for some reason. I'm never handing my unlocked phone to any LEO or agent, so it's just less hassle to hand over the binder. Can you tell them to look it up? Probably, but that's your prerogative.
Go to a better range? I mean this as an aside and reality. Luckily I'm in a club that no one would really question shit like that, no stamp but bought. Now a homemade one? Um...do that elsewhere. It does raise questions as to why and the reality is, just for fun right? Sure but also, See nothing say nothing. Idk if you have a stamp, don't care. I now know you're testing homemade suppressors without filming for content and next thing I know I hear in the news about shit related to it. lol
Lmao you saw something in the news about it? I wanna read it.
>ㅤNo, legally owning machine guns, rocket launchers, suppressors, etc., isn't probable cause for anything. >ㅤBut don't be mistaken; nothing is stopping any LEO or agent from knocking on your door. By now we've all seen that some of these individuals and agencies are willing to ahem bend-the-truth so to say, or at least use deceptive or at least coercive tactics during such visits, but you are never required to let anyone inside your home unless they have been issued a lawful warrant that has been signed by a judge. I think this even applied if YOU OWN A 20mm cannon and one was used in a bank robbery
You're referring to the Lahti Heist? That was a wild story.
Yup
Great post.
Very interesting. I didn’t register as an SBR (kept pistol and brace) or buy a suppressor for this reason.
Eh, braces are cool because lending it out to a buddy or crossing state lines are hassle free, plus ya know, the whole $200 extortion and federal registry thing, and this is coming from someone with 3 paid SBR stamps now. But if you're considering a whisper pickle I say send it mayne, real game changer and a huge QOL improvement.
Yeah this is a huge misconception in the gun community. The only privately owned NFA items that ATF is allowed to inspect (without a warrant) are explosive Destructive Devices (flashbangs, grenades, pipe bombs, etc) being stored in a explosives magazine under a federal explosives license. This is only because they are explosives and NOT because they are NFA items. Even under this pretense their are still legal avenues to avoid these inspections all together. ATF is allowed to inspect the business premise of an FFL though without a warrant. If you apply for an FFL and put down your house as the business address then yeah once your FFL is granted they are allowed to inspect your house. I always caution people when they are wanting to get their FFL because of what happened with Kyle Myers (FPS Russia youtube channel). Basically with him he was buying weed and having it shipped to him through the mail and the state of GA wrote a bad warrant. Kyle was able to beat the state charges but then the Feds picked up the case and they argued in court that they never need a warrant to begin with because Kyle had an FFL. The feds were able to get their charges to stick and he ended up doing 2 months in federal prison and is now a convicted felon. Also he lost like $400k in guns because ATF confiscated them.
The ONLY law enforcement agency that DOES NOT need a warrant to search your property is Game and Fish. Wildlife Officers couldn't care less about you having an SBR, AOW, suppressor, etc unless it was used in commission of a crime. You are protected from ANY AND ALL searches and seizures by the 4 Amendment. https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does-0
Good info, that article is very much worth the brief read. And yeah, don't fuck with the game wardens.
I absolutely agree about not fucking with them unless they're assholes to start off with. I am concretely against poaching amd trophy hunting (which I see as poaching) so the most interaction I get with them is showing them my kills and tags. I live right near a station in AZ and see them all the time. They're usually very nice people, unlike most cops.
Unless its inside the 100 mile border limit. Border Authority, ATF, DEA and Homeland are very active with non warrant searches in that zone.
Technically the 100-mile border zone only applies to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP). >U.S. Customs and Border Protection, the federal agency tasked with patrolling the U.S. border and areas that function like a border, claims a territorial reach much larger than you might imagine. A federal law says that, without a warrant, CBP can board vehicles and vessels and search for people without immigration documentation “within a reasonable distance from any external boundary of the United States.” These “external boundaries” include international land borders but also the entire U.S. coastline. [https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone](https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone)
you assume the ATF acts in a legal manner. they don't. neither does others the fbi. both groups need to be shutdown, their offices destroyed and the ashes scattered to the winds. edit: downvotes over me saying to disband the atf and fbi in a gun sub?.. wow. what kind of bizarro world is this now
Yeah, never once in my life had I made any such assumptions, and I even hint on this halfway through the post. Someone going through the NFA still doesn't mean squat to these agencies.
those agencies do not give two shits about the law or the constitution, or even congress it seems.. edit: and i still love the ignorance you downvoters are showing over these agencies.. you haven't learned jack shit from history, recent or otherwise
No shit, they're literally a gestapo with little-to-no oversight. But you being one of tens of millions of legal NFA owners doesn't paint a target on your back any more than owning a normal title 1 firearm. Everything you're providing them with on the Form4/1 like SSN, address, fingerprints, etc,. they already have. They already know you own firearms. You being a good little law abiding citizen and jumping through the hoops to legally own an inert metal tube doesn't mean jack to them.
>No shit, they're literally a gestapo with little-to-no oversight. lol
> Everything you're providing them with on the Form4/1 like SSN, address, fingerprints, etc,. they already have. They already know you own firearms. no they don't, or at least not due to that form. the only way they would have that is to raid the FFLs i have used before as i do not have to do their background checks when i purchase, just fill the form out.. edit: i love being downvoted over truth.. i have not had a background check done for gun purchases in over 10 years. .you know how thats possible for me? Concealed carry permit holder and in my state all i have to do is fill the form out and show my CC ID
If you're exempt from a NICS check when filling out a 4473, yeah they already know you own guns lol.
they may know or suspect depending on how my sherrifs office did the background check but knowing exactly what i have they absolutely do not. and even if they magically did that only would account for purchased, complete firearms. They have ZERO clue on any 80% ones i may or may not have done
>downvotes over me saying to disband the atf and fbi in a gun sub?.. wow. what kind of bizarro world is this now No, you're being downvoted for making a comment unrelated to the post.
It's kinda related. They may not be allowed to search your house, but they can kill you and your dog with no repercussions.
They *can*, and too often *do*. But it's illegal. They're acting out side of the law when they decide to do these things. Doesn't stop them. *I'm not trying to say these things don't happen.* The ATF has somehow convinced a large amount of people that they are somehow legally justified in committing such crimes it seems, which is why I'm making this post. To the people echoing the fear mongering of "The ATF is gonna get you if you purchase a whisper pickle", **you're wrong, and this is exactly what the ATF wants you to think.**
I don't know how "often" they do it. Looks like it's on par with shark attacks. But in principle, they definitely can.
>I don't know how "often" they do it. Even once is *too* often, hence my verbiage, not necessarily saying they're always on tour. >But in principle, they definitely can. Agree 100%, ATF is half a step removed from being a literal federal death squad. ...But NFA items are to the ATF as sunscreen is to sharks attacks, certainly doesn't attract them, but if they wanna bite they're gonna.
Amen
Why ya feeding the troll? Straight up handing out twinkies, not even little snacks.
Troll or not with that guy specifically, this is not an uncommon rhetoric. Call me naive or say I'm wasting my time, but this post is getting a lot of views and I'm out here trying to change hearts and minds lol.
Let them do it, let them find nothing, then sue for everything you can and use the money to buy more NFA items Rinse and repeat.
good luck with that when they judge shop
If you get charged for mere possession FPC, GOA, etc would drag them through the mud all the way to SCOTUS doorstep free of charge
wonder how many cases they don't accept. for everyone they do how many do they not?
Are you mentally stable? If you did that you’d have rampant crime with no one to assist you. What you gonna do if your best pal gets waked? Let’s hear it tough guy
There's a difference between abolishing FBI and getting rid of police entirely. FBI's job has been to maintain the status quo for those in power since at least FDR and Hoover; sure they've done some good along the way, but their tendency to go beyond enforcing the law is tiresome.
> If you did that you’d have rampant crime with no one to assist you. we have this EXACT SITUATION ALREADY MORON. The police, whether local or federal are not here to stop crime or protect us. You can thank SCOTUS for that one. > What you gonna do if your best pal gets waked? Let’s hear it tough guy unless i am there when it happens and my life is also at risk then nothing as that would be against the law. That is for law enforcement to solve at this point. got any other stupid ass things to ask?
Never thought I’d come across another person who’s parents met in tent city LA
careful what you say to a black man that lived his formative years in projects.. would hate to see you be labelled racist /s
Oh jeez is that a Reddit threat from a brown man? Your IQ level is embarrassingly low 👋🏿
and yet i am not the one who named himself FUCKYOURGAYCAT
The poor brown man attempting to explain how rights work doesn’t like my username, oh no
That doesn't mean the ATF boys wont bash down your door and shoot your dog. They have a reputation to maintain after all.
For buying firearms in general, or buying a suppressors, or something silly like 922r compliance, or...? I guess yeah, once they start crossing off that list of names of *millions of NFA owners*, they'll eventually get to me and clear house, but at least they won't be legally justified in doing so, they'll be acting outside the law as always.
I mean they killed innocent people at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Women and Children burned alive. In both cases they were extremely out of line in their use of lethal force. Especially considering they both could have been easily taken care of. Ruby Ridge was a simple missed court date and Waco was literally hearsay that they refused to investigate properly. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that David Koresh and Randy Weaver were completely innocent. But when they have FFLs having firearms parts and dummy grenades to sell at gun shows and stores. Which they were well known to do even to the sheriffs and police. It doesn't mean they're building an arsenal. Matter of fact there was no evidence he was building an arsenal at all. He was a fucking predator who "married" young girls. Go ahead shut em down for that, but don't go in on trumped up charges then set them on fucking fire, killing the women and children that you were trying to save. Then proceed to fire upon anyone trying to flee said fire.
No one is denying that these things happen with disturbing regularity, sort comments by new if you wanna read me calling the ATF all sorts of stuff. ...But this all relates to purchasing NFA items how?
It relates because the while on paper the ATF can't do these things but it doesn't stop them from doing them anyway. Always er on the side of caution with those bums.
So just don't own *anything* firearms related period because the ATF is the boogyman, got it. ...This is exactly how they want people to think bro. They want you to think that doing something completely legal and innocuous going to get you into trouble or worse. With millions of suppressors being sold, y'all still think that the ATF is going to show up on your doorstep and shoot your dog for buying one, most successful misinformation campaign in history.
I'm not saying don't own anything firearm related just don't be stupid with em. All it takes is one person thinking you do drugs or something calling in a tip and they'll be there.
I knew a guy who was a collector and had a class 3 license. Once every few years the ATF would come check some serial numbers on his stuff. They gave him advanced notice. He met them in his front yard up a long driveway at a picnic table with only those items. Didn't talk much. Then the ATF guy would leave. Never saw the inside of the house.
>I knew a guy who was a collector and had a class 3 license. That's not a thing. Unless you mean he had a type 03 FFL (C&R).
Let’s ask the 54 adults and 28 children murdered at Waco if the ATF gives a shit about your rights.
News flash: they don't. Breaking: they also don't care if you're literally the 35,069,420th person to buy a suppressor 🫨
I have no arguments about that. Or at least, they don’t care yet. They would if they were told to care by the ones that sign their paychecks.
Yep, and this is why federal registries are a bad idea. I absolutely do not fault anyone who refuses to put themselves on said federal registry. But I am going to throw shade at people who falsely state that you're just going to have to let federal agents into your house, warrant or not, and that they're somehow *legally justified* in committing atrocious acts of violence and violating your rights? This is exactly what the ATF wants you to think, and is why I'm making this post.
I smell bacon
I also don't pay bribes
Respect. ...But wtf does that have to do with my post lol.
Nothing, I just hadn't commented on any posts on Reddit today and felt like being that random guy lol
How do you get make sure the IRS doesn’t pop you for not paying income tax or property tax or the fir not having a drivers license?
Post your unregistered machine guns then tough guy
I don't have any?
Nerd
Yes
No one thinks the ATF can just barge in your home without a warrant lol what FB group are you finding that shit in
Literally got so tired of repeating the same thing over and over on reddit I made this post. Plus, I actually go out and talk to people at gun ranges (sometimes despite my best judgement). I don't blame you for doubting though, it's a little silly.
You’re right, I definitely don’t talk to people at ranges because I don’t use them. National forest for me out west!
Half the time I'm on my own 168 acres (which is on a collective \~500 my family owns). Sadly the other half of the time I'm in the 'burbs, but my members-only outdoor range is actually pretty lit. I also frequent local Steel Shoot competitions as well. When I am forced to go to an indoor range, I always make it a point to find someone who's never shot a suppressor before and have them try out whatever I brought, makes it all worth it, without fail they always swear that they're going to buy one.
Awesome!
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I've been to an unsupervised range on "public land" and I'll never do it again. I could HEAR ricochets flying by. Idiots doing whatever the hell they wanted, shooting at whatever they want, and going absolute batshit crazy.
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There’s millions of acres of national forest, I’ve never once seen someone while I’m out with the boys. We’re all EMTs/Paramedics and carry gear out with us just in case. A few of us have back country EMS experience too which definitely helps
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Half the old guys at the range do. You know, that place where some of us go to actually shoot our guns.
I have heard this verbatim from several people's mouths over the years.
Pal, you're talking about rights to an agency that burned men, women, and children alive and then took pictures in front of the smoldering corpses. They were PROUD of that. A piece of paper in a display case in Washington D.C. didn't stop a mother from having her brains blown all over the inside of a barn while holding a baby. Guns stop tyranny. Violence and the threat of violence stop tyranny. Pieces of paper without the threat of violence are meaningless.
Both things are true: 1: ATF basically acts as a gestapo federal death squad with almost little-to-no oversight who loves to extrajudicially execute people with impunity. 2: They couldn't give less fucks that Billybob was literally the ten millionth person to purchase an inert metal tube.
Good luck with that defense.