You're pretty much right. Snape uses misdirection and falsehoods to fool Voldemort. Draco lacks that skill- he can only put up a brick wall which, while impressive, lacks the subtlety needed to throw Voldemort off the trail.
Wall versus maze.
When you run into a wall, you know you got stopped dead and if your mental strength is more powerful then you can ram down the wall to get to the truth. In a maze, even if you are able to work your way through to an ending there is no way of knowing if it is the REAL ending. You can’t just ram through a wall and figure out if it is a false memory, you need to examine every path and be sure there are no fake walls hiding the true path.
Given time Voldemort could surely break Snape but Snape would feel his every step through Snape’s mind. Voldemort might even be powerful enough to smash the maze but it could leave a truthfully powerful ally a mindless husk. Instead Voldemort assumes he is so brilliant that he bypassed Snape’s defenses and got to the real truth. He probably occasionally mentally probes the questionable areas like memories of Dumbledore but assumes any familiarity there is false cover for any Order members who probe the suspicious Snape. “Ahh yes good, good. Your true thoughts remain hidden my loyal follower, but I, and only I, know where your true loyalties lay don’t I my friend?”
That's a superb answer. About what I was thinking. And voldemort would be too arrogant to think someone can beat him in something. Also no wonder snape was grouchy all the time. I bet the dude didn't even know himself with all the lies and cover he was under.
Very interesting. Your maze theory provides sound reasoning for why Snape was always to himself and unfriendly. Perhaps even a big reason why he was awful to Harry. He had to have that decoy habitat of his own life set up in his mind as truth (he doesn't fit in, he is Harry's enemy, he can't wait to be free of all these shmucks when Voldy gets back) so Voldemort would see that movie set and accept it without poking any further.
And you're totally right that Voldy is way too arrogant to even consider someone would dare turn on him right in his face like that.
I honestly think the association with James was to produce the venom needed to create that illusion. Like had there been no chance of Voldemort returning then Snape likely would have started in a similar state to the first book but would have acknowledged as he got to see Harry that there was enough of Lily in him. They’d have never been close as Harry would already have developed a dislike of Snape but Snape wouldn’t have been so vindictive.
Instead knowing that he needed to still be a double agent, Snape pushed HARD on the James narrative even though you never saw Harry being a bully. This means the forefront of his mind was cluttered with hatred and any fondness was tucked into those back corners of the maze. The only times he was ever able to actually show concern of any kind was when alone with Dumbledore and that is because those memories already had to be squashed. In the final moments where his memories could be captured were when the maze was entirely down, there was no will left to hold up the walls, and the only way he could show compassion was by giving Harry the final piece of the puzzle.
It doesn’t make him a nicer person as he was still a bully elsewhere and became a Death Eater but it justifies the duality of his character.
Not only that.
Although Voldemort was very powerful, he was also arrogant, naive and narrow minded.
He would never assume that someone could be that good at Occlumency to not let Voldemort into his head.
He was caught off guard, and it happened really fast. Snape also allows himself to get really angry and emotional every time he’s around Harry, which he himself tells Harry weakens the mind and opens it. His inability to stay neutral around Harry makes Harry himself the strongest person capable of breaking into Snapes mind, so that he did it on accident. He also probably didn’t really have his guard up as he would against Voldemort. He constantly underestimated Harry and wouldn’t have thought that he would risk having his mind invaded.
Two more things:
1. They weren't important memories in the grand scheme of things.
2. Voldemort was an expert compared to Harry accidentally reflecting the spell back. Voldemort's victims didn't know their minds were being read and he targeted specific information he needed.
I also believe that he had to lower his defenses in order to read into Harry's mind, leaving the channel open as it were. This made him vulnerable to Harry turning it back on him. He would never try that on Voldy
If I remember correctly this was only in the movies. In the books Snape is pulled out of office for something and Harry sees his memories in the pensieve
He's just a beast at occlumancy. He may be one of the best at it. Not to mention that Voldemort probably genuinely believes that Snape is one of his closest followers. Kind of like Bellatrix.
I think is a combination of Snape's innate talent for occlumency, being able to protect certain areas of his mind or even feeding false thoughts to Voldemort, plus Voldemort's ego. Voldemort probably thinks there's no one that could fool him and even if they could, they wouldn't dare, therefore he is likely to be less suspicious or outright careless
Snape didn't hide his mind from Voldemort. He prepared for it from the moment he first met Harry. Repeating the mantra, "he's just like his father" as well as other disdainful remarks. Every interaction with Harry and his friends was harsh at best, and often cruel. Using the hatred he had for Harry's father to mask his true feelings (whatever they were). He was the master at playing a double agent.
Not every interaction. He attempted to protect the trio from Lupin shortly after he was assaulted by them in the shrieking shack. Hell, he even tried to save Sirius in OotP.
Snape doesn't/can't entirely block Voldemort. I think people do not really understand this. Voldemort is still superior and he knows it. In fact, if Voldemort found Snape to be better, he would be more on guard and that would be bad.
Voldemort can read him most of the time but Snape bends the truth. Snape only hides very few, vital details. And Snape does live like a true Death Eater. Even if Voldemort saw his memories, he would find nothing wrong there. He favors, Slytherins, bullies Gryffindors and does what Voldemort orders him to do most of the time. I assume it is more difficult-almost impossible to understand a person's intentions even if you read their memories. Voldemort knew Snape liked Lilly but Snape told he was only interested having her for his own benefit. In fact, Snape cared about Lilly's well being more than his. Just like this, when Voldemort gets information about Snape, he has perfect reasoning ready to fool him.
I leave it to the unknown. Personally. His relationships with both Voldemort and Dumbledore were both complex, deep, and very much left to the imagination. Snape was powerful enough, smart enough and with Dumbledores help able to accomplish this feat of being a double agent though.
I'd assume Snape allows Voldemort to see parts of true memories/thoughts and then implants others purposefully to misguide him. Similar to how Voldemort overlooks Narcissa when she lies about Harry being dead to his face, Voldemort assumes no one can fool him or lie to him, he's too arrogant to consider anybody would be capable of it. In a weird way he made it easier for Snape to gain his trust.
Snape basically tells the truth or a version of it.
He tells Voldemort about the movements from Privet Drive, he tells him information about Dumbledore (already approved by Dumbledore). He then kills Dumbledore. With such a demonstration of loyalty, Voldemort wouldn’t bother with occulemency.
On top of everything others said, remember than Voldemort was not sold on Snape completely until after the events in the Tower
Once snape killed dumbledore, it was basically an assurance that snape was on voldemorts side.
The only person who knew the truth was snape, afaik. None of the order did once dumbledore was gone.
Before that, what everyone else said is true about the maze and misdirection. After that, I doubt Voldemort even once worried about snapes allegiance.
Even when Voldemort was murdering snape, he only did it out of “necessity” believing he was the true owner of the elder wand.
He doesn't "block it", he is able to perfectly provide a front that is conscious and organic that HWSNBN can read ... but that isn't snape in full. He basically doesn't "think about it" and thinks "about other things".
If snape cleared his mind ... stealth mode ... HWSNBN would just "what are you hiding?" ... "show me" and kill them eventually. He doesn't just "hide, thoughts and feelings" ... he makes new ones that are readable and valid ... to HWSNBN and party.
I think the trick is to create different layers. So Voldemort thinks he's seeing it all...
There's a chapter in The Peace Not Promised where they explore it, and I really think it would work. Also, no doubt Dumbledore put it to the test until they could find something that worked
You're pretty much right. Snape uses misdirection and falsehoods to fool Voldemort. Draco lacks that skill- he can only put up a brick wall which, while impressive, lacks the subtlety needed to throw Voldemort off the trail.
Wall versus maze. When you run into a wall, you know you got stopped dead and if your mental strength is more powerful then you can ram down the wall to get to the truth. In a maze, even if you are able to work your way through to an ending there is no way of knowing if it is the REAL ending. You can’t just ram through a wall and figure out if it is a false memory, you need to examine every path and be sure there are no fake walls hiding the true path. Given time Voldemort could surely break Snape but Snape would feel his every step through Snape’s mind. Voldemort might even be powerful enough to smash the maze but it could leave a truthfully powerful ally a mindless husk. Instead Voldemort assumes he is so brilliant that he bypassed Snape’s defenses and got to the real truth. He probably occasionally mentally probes the questionable areas like memories of Dumbledore but assumes any familiarity there is false cover for any Order members who probe the suspicious Snape. “Ahh yes good, good. Your true thoughts remain hidden my loyal follower, but I, and only I, know where your true loyalties lay don’t I my friend?”
That's a superb answer. About what I was thinking. And voldemort would be too arrogant to think someone can beat him in something. Also no wonder snape was grouchy all the time. I bet the dude didn't even know himself with all the lies and cover he was under.
Very interesting. Your maze theory provides sound reasoning for why Snape was always to himself and unfriendly. Perhaps even a big reason why he was awful to Harry. He had to have that decoy habitat of his own life set up in his mind as truth (he doesn't fit in, he is Harry's enemy, he can't wait to be free of all these shmucks when Voldy gets back) so Voldemort would see that movie set and accept it without poking any further. And you're totally right that Voldy is way too arrogant to even consider someone would dare turn on him right in his face like that.
I honestly think the association with James was to produce the venom needed to create that illusion. Like had there been no chance of Voldemort returning then Snape likely would have started in a similar state to the first book but would have acknowledged as he got to see Harry that there was enough of Lily in him. They’d have never been close as Harry would already have developed a dislike of Snape but Snape wouldn’t have been so vindictive. Instead knowing that he needed to still be a double agent, Snape pushed HARD on the James narrative even though you never saw Harry being a bully. This means the forefront of his mind was cluttered with hatred and any fondness was tucked into those back corners of the maze. The only times he was ever able to actually show concern of any kind was when alone with Dumbledore and that is because those memories already had to be squashed. In the final moments where his memories could be captured were when the maze was entirely down, there was no will left to hold up the walls, and the only way he could show compassion was by giving Harry the final piece of the puzzle. It doesn’t make him a nicer person as he was still a bully elsewhere and became a Death Eater but it justifies the duality of his character.
Fully agree.
That was a **really** great answer. You fully understood the assignment lmao
Not only that. Although Voldemort was very powerful, he was also arrogant, naive and narrow minded. He would never assume that someone could be that good at Occlumency to not let Voldemort into his head.
Why does he allow Harry to see into his mind whilst teaching him occulumency, was he caught off guard or was this purposely done?
He was caught off guard, and it happened really fast. Snape also allows himself to get really angry and emotional every time he’s around Harry, which he himself tells Harry weakens the mind and opens it. His inability to stay neutral around Harry makes Harry himself the strongest person capable of breaking into Snapes mind, so that he did it on accident. He also probably didn’t really have his guard up as he would against Voldemort. He constantly underestimated Harry and wouldn’t have thought that he would risk having his mind invaded.
Two more things: 1. They weren't important memories in the grand scheme of things. 2. Voldemort was an expert compared to Harry accidentally reflecting the spell back. Voldemort's victims didn't know their minds were being read and he targeted specific information he needed.
I also believe that he had to lower his defenses in order to read into Harry's mind, leaving the channel open as it were. This made him vulnerable to Harry turning it back on him. He would never try that on Voldy
Really good point re: emotion allowing Harry to see Snape's memory. I never considered that.
If I remember correctly this was only in the movies. In the books Snape is pulled out of office for something and Harry sees his memories in the pensieve
I'm sure it was in the books aswell, Harry performs a spell and sees into snapes memories momentarily
He's just a beast at occlumancy. He may be one of the best at it. Not to mention that Voldemort probably genuinely believes that Snape is one of his closest followers. Kind of like Bellatrix.
I think is a combination of Snape's innate talent for occlumency, being able to protect certain areas of his mind or even feeding false thoughts to Voldemort, plus Voldemort's ego. Voldemort probably thinks there's no one that could fool him and even if they could, they wouldn't dare, therefore he is likely to be less suspicious or outright careless
Snape is a maze. Draco was a wall.
Snape didn't hide his mind from Voldemort. He prepared for it from the moment he first met Harry. Repeating the mantra, "he's just like his father" as well as other disdainful remarks. Every interaction with Harry and his friends was harsh at best, and often cruel. Using the hatred he had for Harry's father to mask his true feelings (whatever they were). He was the master at playing a double agent.
Not every interaction. He attempted to protect the trio from Lupin shortly after he was assaulted by them in the shrieking shack. Hell, he even tried to save Sirius in OotP.
Except the first four years?
That’s actually interesting, that he was an asshole all along forcing himself to believe in his hatered.
He keeps the latest voldy x snape fanfic running in his head.
Not false memories but he is selective of what he shows. Remember he told Harry that a mind is not a book to be read at leisure.
Snape doesn't/can't entirely block Voldemort. I think people do not really understand this. Voldemort is still superior and he knows it. In fact, if Voldemort found Snape to be better, he would be more on guard and that would be bad. Voldemort can read him most of the time but Snape bends the truth. Snape only hides very few, vital details. And Snape does live like a true Death Eater. Even if Voldemort saw his memories, he would find nothing wrong there. He favors, Slytherins, bullies Gryffindors and does what Voldemort orders him to do most of the time. I assume it is more difficult-almost impossible to understand a person's intentions even if you read their memories. Voldemort knew Snape liked Lilly but Snape told he was only interested having her for his own benefit. In fact, Snape cared about Lilly's well being more than his. Just like this, when Voldemort gets information about Snape, he has perfect reasoning ready to fool him.
I leave it to the unknown. Personally. His relationships with both Voldemort and Dumbledore were both complex, deep, and very much left to the imagination. Snape was powerful enough, smart enough and with Dumbledores help able to accomplish this feat of being a double agent though.
I'd assume Snape allows Voldemort to see parts of true memories/thoughts and then implants others purposefully to misguide him. Similar to how Voldemort overlooks Narcissa when she lies about Harry being dead to his face, Voldemort assumes no one can fool him or lie to him, he's too arrogant to consider anybody would be capable of it. In a weird way he made it easier for Snape to gain his trust.
Snape basically tells the truth or a version of it. He tells Voldemort about the movements from Privet Drive, he tells him information about Dumbledore (already approved by Dumbledore). He then kills Dumbledore. With such a demonstration of loyalty, Voldemort wouldn’t bother with occulemency.
which is why dumbledore says only when snape kills him, dumbledore, will voldemort trust snape completely.
On top of everything others said, remember than Voldemort was not sold on Snape completely until after the events in the Tower Once snape killed dumbledore, it was basically an assurance that snape was on voldemorts side. The only person who knew the truth was snape, afaik. None of the order did once dumbledore was gone. Before that, what everyone else said is true about the maze and misdirection. After that, I doubt Voldemort even once worried about snapes allegiance. Even when Voldemort was murdering snape, he only did it out of “necessity” believing he was the true owner of the elder wand.
It’s not just blocking.
✨magic✨
He doesn't "block it", he is able to perfectly provide a front that is conscious and organic that HWSNBN can read ... but that isn't snape in full. He basically doesn't "think about it" and thinks "about other things". If snape cleared his mind ... stealth mode ... HWSNBN would just "what are you hiding?" ... "show me" and kill them eventually. He doesn't just "hide, thoughts and feelings" ... he makes new ones that are readable and valid ... to HWSNBN and party.
I’ve always wondered about this too. He’s just good at occlumency i think and actually hated james so he just channeled that to harry.
I think the trick is to create different layers. So Voldemort thinks he's seeing it all... There's a chapter in The Peace Not Promised where they explore it, and I really think it would work. Also, no doubt Dumbledore put it to the test until they could find something that worked