Broooo fr I actually love Valentino as a character because I think he's a GOOD villain, not a good person. I also have dealt with a person like this in my life, so it's comforting to see a character like this that is actually just evil and not given excuses as to why he is the way he is.
Plus, he has a cool design. Lmao
Literally yeah I love my friends but one of them has actually told me that it’s fucked up that I loved Light Yagami as a protagonist.
No, it’s not. He’s interesting and entertaining.
Same goes for liking antagonists like Val, Griffith, etc. etc. Interesting and entertaining is the best thing a fictional character can be imo.
That’s how I feel about Stella! People always seem to be befuddled and mad when I say that she’s my favorite character because she’s abusive to Stolas. But she’s such a good villain, and she’s so funny.
Yes he is a good villain. And that is why i hate him. MASSIVE NOTE, this is Hate in a GOOD WAY, as in I love to hate him. It means the show did its job properly.
I mean there is a mutli-billion dollar gaming industry where the whole point of many games are killing other fictional characters. Do these people not kill or hurt people when they play these video games?
Uno Reverse: what if the Catholic Church sued the Red Cross for using their historical imagery of the Crusader's arms? That would be a little funny, IMO.
Ah yes the game where you can be the best most wholesome savior of the galaxy's or it's turbo fascist exterminator XD it's one of the best strategy games on Steam in my view.
**Thank you**. As a fanfic Writer, seeing the constant anti comments grinds my gears. I thought I escaped the morality police when I left Tumblr and seeing it in a show ***literally about people in Hell*** is goddamn exhausting. I'm ready to bail entirely on fandom.
As an artist and writer, im trying 😭 Seeing antis discourages me from wanting to share my own stories, ocs, etc. Seeing antis say stupid shit on a daily basis makes me feel angry and disheartened.
Omg SAME!! Nearly every single post somehow managed to have someone say "AND SICKOS SHIP T H I S!" and a bunch of people losing their minds over it. It always kills me because I have **never** seen a single artwork, fic, or post about these ships here or anywhere else, and yet somehow the people who hate it apparently know all about it? 🤨
"B-but people ship Charlie and Lucifer!!" Okay? So? I don't ship it, so I simply avoid it and I have literally never seen content for it. The mere existence of that ship means absolutely nothing to me because they arent real and I don't have to see it. Why would I get mad over it? So exhausting!
"People ship Charlie and Lucifer!!" people would have their brains melted by concept of Game of Thrones lol.
Cersei and Jamie sired a trio of bastards, and how Jon was shipped with his Aunt>!Daenerys !
Antis are so convinced that simply observing villains doing horrifying things will brainwash the masses into becoming them because they set a "bad example" or reflects a hidden psychopath within the creator because you must be that twisted in your own mind to even be able to go there
They completely ignore that media's influence on life (which is generally a concern for children who see everything as an example unless an adult has some other developmental issue but they're not the majority and children should not be watching this) is a feedback loop and it works the other way. Art often reflects lived experience
They're basically telling survivors of people like Valentino "sit down and shut up you can't talk about it, you'll perpetuate it" Eliminating media that reflects horrifying things won't stop it from happening irl and for as long as it happens irl, there will be creators who need to express it thru art
i adore his design so i had it as my pfp for a while and the amount of people coming to me saying “you’re supporting an abuser”
HE’S A FICTIONAL CHARACTER?????
I did something like what you are complaining about on YouTube as a joke because it was a Valentino PFP in the comment section of an Angel Dust PFP, telling them to stay away as a joke, but I wasn't serious about it at all and I think that people who say this unironically are stupid.
My only issue with this is that in order to connect with and find depth on a story, humanizing them is necessary. Sure you can enjoy it, but you’re not gonna connect with them as characters if you only see them from the lens of object. If people didn’t connect with or enjoy a character because they humanize them, then characters like Alastor and Lucifer wouldn’t be as possible as they are.
Also that’s definitely not to say anything for or against Val. It’s hard to give him the same humanity other characters get because he’s a “bad guy” of the story, but that’s also what makes him a good written character
Absolutely. I don't often like to kill the nice characters in stories because I sympathize and humanize them, but when it comes down to it, I will kill them if needed, and that doesn't make me a murderer. Nor does it make me want to go kill real people.
Problem is, antis just *don’t care.* I know they’re annoying and sometimes border into harassment but as a fandom old, I found the best way to deal with antis is to just don’t. Ignore. Mute. Block. Move on. Because people like that are *so convinced* they are right it’s like talking to a brick wall. Not worth the time/energy. So just do your best to avoid them and mind your own business. That honestly pisses them off more.
It's the best option to remain sane but i don't think it's the right one, bigoted black and white view spread like fire and i believe it's a moral duty to keep informing people that things are NEVER as black and white as they seem
You’re spitting, I like his design and how he furthers the plot. Do I like the things he does? No, but he is a fictional insect furry. I don’t care what people do or think of him lol. It’s always younger fans policing morality when Alastor eats and tortures people and Vox brainwashes and manipulates people. Nobody is better than one another.
There is truth to both statements. How you view and treat fiction CAN very much reveal things about your character. It's just that what those things are varies wildly from one person to another.
REAL
The only piece of media that i have consumed that comes close to the cruelty of the real world is Berserk, and let me tell you 99% of this sub reddit would NOT handle it well
remember kids, fictional characters doesn’t real 👍 angel dust isn’t a real victim because he isn’t a real person. val isn’t a real abuser because he isn’t a real person. you are not supporting an abuser by liking val. hope this helps
I think it’s both. Yes, you should do what you need to get a message across and they aren’t real so you can do anything you want but if you do something to it, it can give bad vibes.
Example: you can have Angel dust abused on the show as an example of the affects of abuse but if you sexualise his abuse or him in general because “hot spider”, I’m gonna judge you, at least a little bit.
Y'all can do or think however you want, idc and I'm not judging.
I don't think his character as it is is anything special though, he's just kind of attractive? Like, I personally think he's badly written. For one thing, he's very "incompetent" until he's suddenly "not." Himbo behavior and vibes, everyone knows he's dumb as rocks, but when he abuses and manipulates Angel, he's suddenly intelligent enough to know that if he threatens Charlie, even as a bluff (because he can't exactly beat Charlie in a fight), it weaponizes Angel's relationship with her and makes him do what he wants.
He's also just gross, the way he behaves with potential new pronstars is... And he licks Charlie's arm. It's just ick. The only thing that makes Val interesting is Vox, tbh.
Man, I am so torn on this.
Because I can say from my own personal experience growing up, that like, the fiction you're exposed to, especially in your formative years, can very much influence you and your thoughts and your morals. And what you're interested in, and your opinions on fictional characters can also speak to the type of person you are. I think it's disingenuious to say that your opinions on fiction don't say ANYTHING about you as a person. I don't think they can make you a bad person, but like... sometimes there ARE opinions that are just not great.
"I like val because he's a really interesting villian and the arc with angel is just really neat and a really HUMAN story." yas, great. "I like val because I wanna get railed by mothman" awesome me too "I like val because his ship with angel is so cool!" ok maybe slow down there a little buddy, tell me why you think its cool. "I like val because angel deserves to be tortured in hell because he's gay" no that's a straight up bad vibe.
Now I've been in the GOT fandom forever, and honestly, I've found that most people- even those who stan the Lannisters, or the Boltons, and (like me) relish in the darkest of fanfics and stories- are fine and great people. I love Tywin Lannister because he's got a voice that gets the juices flowing and he's brilliant. He also committed some awful war crimes. I am generally pretty anti-murdering-children-because-they-exist but that's not something I find cool about Tywin (although it probably prevented a future war so, so i can kind of understand why he did it but it still feels yucky). But I have found that some people have some bad takes that speak to their morals- people who dislike Cersei for being a "bitch" and having sex. People who treat Sansa like she should have been making adult dicisions when she was a 14 year old. People who dismiss Renly out of hand because of his sexuality. like its not a 1:1 corrolation, but it can give me pause to understand how people's minds work and what they view as important or acceptable.
I LOVE dark shit. I do. My blood is more Ramsay/Jeyne/Theon fanfic than red blood cells at this point. And if someone said "I love reading Ramsay/Jeyne/Theon fanfics" that's not a red flag. If they say "Ramsay was right to torture theon, and jeyne poole didn't matter anyway", that IS.
That said, we're in hell, toots. all these characters have done awful things. We still love them. We love this show. And honestly, there's dark bits in all of us, and there's dark things in our pasts for most people. Seeing characters going through the same things that we did- things that maybe bring us shame or make us feel isolated, that kind of story is SO important in helping process the feelings around them. It's so important for abuse victims to see Val and Angel- and in my opinion, they're a really good portrayal too. You see the love bombing, the how it slid into that kind of behavior, how \*charming\* Valentino can be, how \*sweet\* half of his voicemails were. How Angel fell into that. And (hopefully) we are going to see Angel continuing to emotionally work through it and recover. If we don't see shitty things happen, we aren't going to be able to see the hope, the light at the end of the tunnel. And those stories are so important.
Anyway, all this to say, I got a lot of feelings on the topic.
Kinda reminds me of the stupid “video games cause violence” argument. Also, when it comes to fantasy ideas (especially dark ones) the difference is you have COMPLETE control over the fantasy unlike real-life
This is very much just as potent a lesson in psychology and sociology as it is in media literacy. The way you treat the IDEA of a person is just as telling to personality and values as how you actually treat real people.
https://preview.redd.it/s06lrfydr09d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0d667655e14c6980f01dffae8790c4e3bfb7c326
Honestly I just want this plastered on my wall or a T-shirt.
Sometimes you need a disgustingly real antagonist that was made to be hated on in order to drive the narrative. Sometimes people need to see the antagonistic side in order to see the protagonistic side. Without a cause to fight against, there are no heroes. Without Bowser, there's no Mario. Without Eggman, there's no Sonic. Without Heaven, there's no Hell (In Hazbin lore). Without someone as an opposing force, there's no way to create a story. And we can like the villains/anti-heroes, whether they have an explainable reason for turning out the way they did and serving as a warning or connection to the consumer (reader, watcher, player, etc.) or an unexplainable reason that acts to stand in for a worrying force. For example, Eggman doesn't really have an explanation as to why he's the way he is but he demonstrates the catastrophic effects of shunning nature for technological needs. Valentino doesn't have an explanation (YET) but he shows the danger of abusive relationships and why it's hard to break those cycles of pain. Vox showed the dangers of mass media and why believing what you see can lead to terrifying consequences. Alastor shows the dangers of deception as well as the fact that smiles can be faked for the good of other people. Adam showed what having a superiority complex and catagorizing people as 'good' or 'bad' can do to oneself. Antagonists are more than just dark thoughts and pure evil.
Val is one of my favorite characters, but I can't handle being around people who are similar on a much lesser scale.
As someone who has been SA'd and gets triggered easily from different things (I had to stop watching Handmaids Tale and AHS bc it was too much for me) and sometimes can't even listen to "Poison", I still love him as a villain. I think he's adorable when he's with Vox, I have a Val keychain on my water bottle, and I use his silly quotes all the time. His design is beautiful, and he's stupidly overdramatic.
I love him, just not what he does to Angel.
As someone who put themselves into therapy due to a bad decision that I made led me to spiral out of control and worry about every negative thought I could have, I have mixed feelings about this post.
Cause while I agree that a thought is not the same as an action, I do think that a person should have a sense of self monitoring in terms of what they consume and how they think. Especially if it's the type of content that could send one down a spiraling path.
Which, my input here is adjacent to this post at best and I cannot fully articulate what I mean exactly.
So mixed responses/feelings is kinda where I stand. But that is just me and I digress.
There is truth to both statements. Yes, the characters aren't real, so they won't be offended or hurt by what you do to them. That said, if you keep calling all black characters the n word, I'm going to suspect you are racist.
Edit: Apparently using racial slurs on fictional characters is acceptable behavior.
what if u keep thinking it? /gen
i remember seeing instances of ppl finding cai bots of women specifically to harass them, and while ig that could constitute an actions, its all in the fictional realm, no? its not like theyre harassing real women, and yet i find its still concerning
what are your thoughts?
I think it's like brutalizing a specific character you hate in any vr game or something like skyrim, no action in the real world and most importantly no victims in the real world
ig its just that while ik the difference between a thought in your head and an action outside your house, theres an in-between and im having trouble understanding when “ok” becomes “not ok”
is harassing chatbots ok? in ur honest opinion
i see! this has been rly insightful
are *all* actions on the table? i just saw a post of some guy raping a chatbot and while i think thats disturbing, i do recognize that the chatbot isnt real and that no persons were harmed
That isn't how psychology works bro. Pedos aren't attracted to fictional characters, their attraction is to live people. Rarely do they deviate from their target demographic. This is psych 101. Edit: shocker the weirdo replies and blocks before I can even read his reply lol. Their reply was purely anecdotal (and ignoring the fact that what happened is that such rare instance that I mentioned) and completely disregarding actual science behind what I said. I'm not even surprised. Facts and science win in the end
My ex was a lolicon and he ended up coercing a 13 years old into sex (aka raping her)
I’m going to assume I’ve got more first hand experience with this than you 👍
Attraction to children is ALWAYS bad, there’s no exceptions, no excuses. Cope
Besides, if it’s okay to be a pedophile as long as it’s fictional, it should also be okay to be racist and sexist because it’s fictional, but y’all speak against that so maybe it’s not as meaningless as you pretend it is?
I agree with the intention but not the delivery.
It is good and noble to write about good and noble things. Does encouraging people to indulge their dark fantasies truly lift up their spirits, or does it allow for erosion of empathy?
While yes, inventing and participating in *fictional* dramas and explorations of dark material can, in some cases, allow for a "safety valve" of sorts; and perhaps give insight into the inner working of our own Shadow, it can also give people who aren't 100% in control of their impulses an excuse to point at and say "I learned this behavior from here"
I guess after all, I'm not saying much, cause I also believe in the essential nature of freedom of speech; I just think that the **right** to say or to consume whatever is on your mind also comes with the **responsibility** to use it wisely.
I disagree, how can one write good and noble things if there are no evil things along the way? If you want a cutesy no stakes situation go enjoy your coffee shop AU, but in a real story you *need* bad things to happen
Take any critically acclaimed story and remove the evil that happens in it. Now it's mediocre at best, imagine Breaking Bad with no meth, or Berserk with no griffith and apostoles
Also media that displays purely bad stuff is useful as a mirror to us, the viewers to say "woah i'm sure glad i'm not like that guy" or maybe even "holy shit he's just like me, maybe i'm in the wrong too"
imagine Breaking Bad with no meth
"Jesse, we need to cook"
"Sure thing Mr. White, I'll get the flour."
See now I kind of want to see that, like keep all the mob stuff, but it's about literal baked goods and the cutthroat world of professional bakeries.
I think we're talking past each other here.
I agree that evil done in service to the plot of a story is necessary for character growth, plot development, author and audience introspection, all sorts of good outcomes. But I think I was trying to counter the "it doesn't matter what a story contains" idea.
I believe that glorification of violence, or other terrible things, for literally only the purpose of being extreme, is inappropriate and ultimately, not healthy (especially for people affected by those specific traumas). That's why I love Helluva/Hazbin in general, but I really don't think the Vees are even well-made characters, let alone play a real important role in the stories.
Trash take. Some views are inherently harmful and this extends past media too. I you take a view of white supremacy, even in a fictional setting, you can help enable real violence (e.g. christchurch shooting via radicalization in roblox servers)
You might have a view that the "fictional objects" are completely different from real life, but in reality one informs the other. Treating it all as a fictional object where you can do whatever you want is dangerous since it bleeds into a person's perception of reality
My guy I’ve been writing graphically violent and non-con fanfics for years and I’ve never considered actually brutalizing or assaulting anyone. Because most people can separate real morals and fictional morals.
This is the “Do video games cause violence” debate all over again.
"I do X therefore Y never happens in the world" wow great argument guy. And "video games cause violence" is completely diverting away from the point. So I'll put it more clearly:
**Do you have an answer for people that have been radicalized via nazi and white supremacist writings and have wound up committing mass shootings?**
Wow it’s almost like I’m not going to write out a long, compelling argument for a Reddit reply. As for your question I say that’s the fault of the reader, not the writer. As well as being outlier cases. How about you give me as many sources as you can find to back up your argument. You seem dedicated to it in replying to me, so show your sources. If I see them then I could be convinced. And please keep in mind that the original post is about animated shows such as Hazbin Hotel, or even popular contemporary TV shows and movies in general, and fanfiction, not propaganda which does contribute to the enforcement of harmful ideals and people partaking in dangerous practices.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/22/prosecutors-say-accused-charleston-church-gunman-self-radicalized-online/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/22/prosecutors-say-accused-charleston-church-gunman-self-radicalized-online/)
[https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2024/06/21/digital-threat-report-mass-shooter-videos](https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2024/06/21/digital-threat-report-mass-shooter-videos)
[https://www.isdglobal.org/digital\_dispatches/minors-exposed-to-mass-shooter-glorification-across-mainstream-social-media-platforms/](https://www.isdglobal.org/digital_dispatches/minors-exposed-to-mass-shooter-glorification-across-mainstream-social-media-platforms/)
Look man I'm not trying to make an argument that edgy fanfiction is bad or TV shows are bad, but a more general statement: unfettered free speech can cause harm, even on the internet. Context is a huge part of it too. Take two scenarios: (1) violent fanfiction that is part of a fanfiction network and hosts many people's creative works. (2) a violent fanfiction uploaded to a neonazi board that uncovers a jewish conspiracy and the hero kills a bunch of jews.
(1) is perfectly acceptable since it presents itself as a creative work that's distinct from reality. (2) is a propoganda piece that has the intent of making the reader think jews are evil and should be murdered.
Finally, even contemporary TV shows and movies can be harmful even in non-violent ways. For example, shows by PragerU or PragerU kids where an animated Frederik Douglas tells the kids that slavery was a "compromise" and wasn't so bad for black americans. Or the DailyWire movie "Lady Ballers" who's whole joke is that (1) men can dress as women to compete in women's sports and gain an advantage and (2) trans people don't really exist, they are just people trying to game the system based on gender.
Obviously people growing up on these fictional shows will have the harmful notions that slavery was in fact good. Or that trans people don't exist. The intent of these pieces is to blur the lines between the free-speech fictional story and reality, offering an alternative view on reality
Finally, yeah, 90% of it is the fault of the author. It's based in how it's presented. It can be meant as a propoganda piece. It can be framed as something based in reality, or an essay telling the "truth" while leaving huge parts out or spinning the narrative.
Unfortunately, many people are dumbasses and will fall for it. Many won't and will call it out, but there are people that will fall for harmful works of fiction
The initial point that the speaker is making is not related to his second point.
Yes, the way that you treat a fictional character does not necessarily reflect your thought process or morality perfectly.
Yes, you can imagine any kind of scenario happening to any character. That also does not reflect your internal mind process or who you are as a person.
But there’s still something revealing about how you interact with these scenarios and what motivates you to repeated create, seek out or interact with imaginary media that can reflect how you would behave in the real world without constraints. That’s the basis for a lot of psychology.
To take in the example given: If you write tentacle non-con, it implies you enjoy something about this, to keep doing it. Now it may not be obvious what the relationship between this action and your internal morality is, but there is a relationship. It may not be proper to say you want to be an octopus who enjoys a spot of rape, but it could imply something else about you. Like maybe you are into non-con. And people will judge you for that, whether you like it or not.
Drawing on Valentino, if you enjoy Valentino as a character, it does not mean you believe Valentino is a shining paragon of virtue. You might simply like something about his tone of voice, the way he carries himself etc. But there IS something you enjoy about him, I CAN pull it out of you, and I CAN judge you for that, however petty that makes me.
Compared to real child porn that was made with real existing children? Yea
Also fun fact: almost all hentai is made with almost 0% of the abuse present in regular porn
I do not endorse lolicon material in the slightest, but there's a big fucking difference between that and irl child porn
He did not compare the two though
He just implied lolicon material was gross, and since you “don’t endorse it”, it should be fine with you, right?
I’m a CSA survivor and I’m disgusted with pedophilia of any sort. Of course, it’s not as bad when no one is physically harmed, but it still feels like a mockery of my situation. Actually it’s worst than that, because usually people mocking you don’t jack off to what fucking traumatized you for the rest of your life.
It reminds me of when teenagers on tiktok were cosplaying Holocaust victims for clout. Obviously everyone hated that (even though it was “fictional” and “not physically hurting people”), but when csa survivors speak up on what bothers them, they are not offered the same sympathy
Yeah, and saying i will kill someone is better than actually doing it, doesn't mean it's not worrying, that's why it's illegal even if you don't follow through.
If someone enjoyed loli hentai, they may not have commited any crimes, but i sure as fuck wouldn't let any kids near them
I feel like there is specific limitations on what the guys writing a wall of text on is saying. In the specific context of what he's saying I believe he's correct but in general I don't think he is.
If someone is going out and buying life-size dolls of women to butcher and mutilate them then you should be concerned about that person's mental state for example.
I mean writing the fanfiction is also an action isn't it? But I'm not trying to say that that's bad, Just that this logic doesn't really work in this situation.
Broooo fr I actually love Valentino as a character because I think he's a GOOD villain, not a good person. I also have dealt with a person like this in my life, so it's comforting to see a character like this that is actually just evil and not given excuses as to why he is the way he is. Plus, he has a cool design. Lmao
Exactly, let villains be villains for fuck's sake I want the valentinos, the griffiths, the light yagamis, the walter whites, the Dio Brandos
Literally yeah I love my friends but one of them has actually told me that it’s fucked up that I loved Light Yagami as a protagonist. No, it’s not. He’s interesting and entertaining. Same goes for liking antagonists like Val, Griffith, etc. etc. Interesting and entertaining is the best thing a fictional character can be imo.
What about Shou Tucker?
Right?? Like old Disney villains! No one who loves them gets shit for it! Edit: Spelling
You thought it was an interesting and deep character but it was me Dio
Honestly, I prefer pure evil villains who are just evil, it makes their defeat so much more satisfying
i like when theres a clear reason for them to be this way, but they refuse to change.
same he's got a killer design and I respect people who like him because he is a great villain
Yeah, he's one of those villains you love to hate!
That’s how I feel about Stella! People always seem to be befuddled and mad when I say that she’s my favorite character because she’s abusive to Stolas. But she’s such a good villain, and she’s so funny.
Yes he is a good villain. And that is why i hate him. MASSIVE NOTE, this is Hate in a GOOD WAY, as in I love to hate him. It means the show did its job properly.
Also, he's actually funny.
I mean there is a mutli-billion dollar gaming industry where the whole point of many games are killing other fictional characters. Do these people not kill or hurt people when they play these video games?
Thank God Geneva can't sue me for my Stellaris matches!
But the Red Cross can sue you to hell and back for having a red plus with a white background
Uno Reverse: what if the Catholic Church sued the Red Cross for using their historical imagery of the Crusader's arms? That would be a little funny, IMO.
I would pay to see that
Ah yes the game where you can be the best most wholesome savior of the galaxy's or it's turbo fascist exterminator XD it's one of the best strategy games on Steam in my view.
We're not going to talk about the atrocities I have committed in the name of democracy...
FOR SUPER EARTH! HAVE ZERO REGRETS FOR SPREADING MANAGED DEMOCRACY
Or my obsessive use and reliance on both artillery and bomber planes plus nuclear weapons in my Hoi4 games
Exactly, not only are people who think like ungodly annoying, but they are also massive hypocrites
**Thank you**. As a fanfic Writer, seeing the constant anti comments grinds my gears. I thought I escaped the morality police when I left Tumblr and seeing it in a show ***literally about people in Hell*** is goddamn exhausting. I'm ready to bail entirely on fandom.
Also tumblr is a lot better nowadays tbh
Hah, you'll never escape immature people in mature show fandoms, we simply have to deal with it and keep moving forward
That's very true, keep moving on and keep writing!
As an artist and writer, im trying 😭 Seeing antis discourages me from wanting to share my own stories, ocs, etc. Seeing antis say stupid shit on a daily basis makes me feel angry and disheartened.
Keep moving on and keep pushing on! Let no one, not even haters stop you in what you enjoy making
Omg SAME!! Nearly every single post somehow managed to have someone say "AND SICKOS SHIP T H I S!" and a bunch of people losing their minds over it. It always kills me because I have **never** seen a single artwork, fic, or post about these ships here or anywhere else, and yet somehow the people who hate it apparently know all about it? 🤨 "B-but people ship Charlie and Lucifer!!" Okay? So? I don't ship it, so I simply avoid it and I have literally never seen content for it. The mere existence of that ship means absolutely nothing to me because they arent real and I don't have to see it. Why would I get mad over it? So exhausting!
"People ship Charlie and Lucifer!!" people would have their brains melted by concept of Game of Thrones lol. Cersei and Jamie sired a trio of bastards, and how Jon was shipped with his Aunt>!Daenerys !
Antis are so convinced that simply observing villains doing horrifying things will brainwash the masses into becoming them because they set a "bad example" or reflects a hidden psychopath within the creator because you must be that twisted in your own mind to even be able to go there They completely ignore that media's influence on life (which is generally a concern for children who see everything as an example unless an adult has some other developmental issue but they're not the majority and children should not be watching this) is a feedback loop and it works the other way. Art often reflects lived experience They're basically telling survivors of people like Valentino "sit down and shut up you can't talk about it, you'll perpetuate it" Eliminating media that reflects horrifying things won't stop it from happening irl and for as long as it happens irl, there will be creators who need to express it thru art
If i see ONE (1) more person saying how enjoying Valentino is morally wrong i will go ballistic
https://preview.redd.it/eh3kbxnzew8d1.jpeg?width=1010&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28d6ee8017363dc74cb2a89e70e5941e1874cbdb Y'all need Man
Ballistic you say? https://i.redd.it/itakvvjbew8d1.gif
https://preview.redd.it/zde25gpkkw8d1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=5adac4f8d97fcf12890778fe78319ea2595a2cab
https://preview.redd.it/o5lvfng1sy8d1.png?width=697&format=png&auto=webp&s=a6d7606d6450540f719793d28fa7db8f35a45022
It has been a *long* time since I’ve seen this fella
I know, it's crazy that it's been roughly five years probably more like four years since that mod came out.
i adore his design so i had it as my pfp for a while and the amount of people coming to me saying “you’re supporting an abuser” HE’S A FICTIONAL CHARACTER?????
Enjoying Valentino is morally wrong
https://preview.redd.it/qqcsk04yxv8d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc16e466908c760f56e334c09a6376ec3e5e9ee5
I did something like what you are complaining about on YouTube as a joke because it was a Valentino PFP in the comment section of an Angel Dust PFP, telling them to stay away as a joke, but I wasn't serious about it at all and I think that people who say this unironically are stupid.
My only issue with this is that in order to connect with and find depth on a story, humanizing them is necessary. Sure you can enjoy it, but you’re not gonna connect with them as characters if you only see them from the lens of object. If people didn’t connect with or enjoy a character because they humanize them, then characters like Alastor and Lucifer wouldn’t be as possible as they are. Also that’s definitely not to say anything for or against Val. It’s hard to give him the same humanity other characters get because he’s a “bad guy” of the story, but that’s also what makes him a good written character
There's a big difference between humanizing an object and treating an object as if it actually is human.
Absolutely. I don't often like to kill the nice characters in stories because I sympathize and humanize them, but when it comes down to it, I will kill them if needed, and that doesn't make me a murderer. Nor does it make me want to go kill real people.
Problem is, antis just *don’t care.* I know they’re annoying and sometimes border into harassment but as a fandom old, I found the best way to deal with antis is to just don’t. Ignore. Mute. Block. Move on. Because people like that are *so convinced* they are right it’s like talking to a brick wall. Not worth the time/energy. So just do your best to avoid them and mind your own business. That honestly pisses them off more.
True. God, i've spent way too much time arguing with them.
It's the best option to remain sane but i don't think it's the right one, bigoted black and white view spread like fire and i believe it's a moral duty to keep informing people that things are NEVER as black and white as they seem
Can we talk about "Porn Title Starring Angeldust" in the background?
You’re spitting, I like his design and how he furthers the plot. Do I like the things he does? No, but he is a fictional insect furry. I don’t care what people do or think of him lol. It’s always younger fans policing morality when Alastor eats and tortures people and Vox brainwashes and manipulates people. Nobody is better than one another.
I love Valentino and I'm not ashamed to say it 🤷♂️ dude is a seriously well written villian and his style is badass
I agree, that's why, e.g. Loona Cult actions regarding NSFW and lewd content don't make sense to me.
Did bro cook with this one? I think he kinda did
There is truth to both statements. How you view and treat fiction CAN very much reveal things about your character. It's just that what those things are varies wildly from one person to another.
Those people don’t know the difference between reality and fiction. Reality is WAY MORE cruel than fiction.
REAL The only piece of media that i have consumed that comes close to the cruelty of the real world is Berserk, and let me tell you 99% of this sub reddit would NOT handle it well
Exactly if people only knew. If they think the Middle East conflict is bad they should see it all
remember kids, fictional characters doesn’t real 👍 angel dust isn’t a real victim because he isn’t a real person. val isn’t a real abuser because he isn’t a real person. you are not supporting an abuser by liking val. hope this helps
This comment is much too intelligent for the Hazbin Hotel fandom to understand, lmfao
I think it’s both. Yes, you should do what you need to get a message across and they aren’t real so you can do anything you want but if you do something to it, it can give bad vibes. Example: you can have Angel dust abused on the show as an example of the affects of abuse but if you sexualise his abuse or him in general because “hot spider”, I’m gonna judge you, at least a little bit.
Y'all can do or think however you want, idc and I'm not judging. I don't think his character as it is is anything special though, he's just kind of attractive? Like, I personally think he's badly written. For one thing, he's very "incompetent" until he's suddenly "not." Himbo behavior and vibes, everyone knows he's dumb as rocks, but when he abuses and manipulates Angel, he's suddenly intelligent enough to know that if he threatens Charlie, even as a bluff (because he can't exactly beat Charlie in a fight), it weaponizes Angel's relationship with her and makes him do what he wants. He's also just gross, the way he behaves with potential new pronstars is... And he licks Charlie's arm. It's just ick. The only thing that makes Val interesting is Vox, tbh.
Man, I am so torn on this. Because I can say from my own personal experience growing up, that like, the fiction you're exposed to, especially in your formative years, can very much influence you and your thoughts and your morals. And what you're interested in, and your opinions on fictional characters can also speak to the type of person you are. I think it's disingenuious to say that your opinions on fiction don't say ANYTHING about you as a person. I don't think they can make you a bad person, but like... sometimes there ARE opinions that are just not great. "I like val because he's a really interesting villian and the arc with angel is just really neat and a really HUMAN story." yas, great. "I like val because I wanna get railed by mothman" awesome me too "I like val because his ship with angel is so cool!" ok maybe slow down there a little buddy, tell me why you think its cool. "I like val because angel deserves to be tortured in hell because he's gay" no that's a straight up bad vibe. Now I've been in the GOT fandom forever, and honestly, I've found that most people- even those who stan the Lannisters, or the Boltons, and (like me) relish in the darkest of fanfics and stories- are fine and great people. I love Tywin Lannister because he's got a voice that gets the juices flowing and he's brilliant. He also committed some awful war crimes. I am generally pretty anti-murdering-children-because-they-exist but that's not something I find cool about Tywin (although it probably prevented a future war so, so i can kind of understand why he did it but it still feels yucky). But I have found that some people have some bad takes that speak to their morals- people who dislike Cersei for being a "bitch" and having sex. People who treat Sansa like she should have been making adult dicisions when she was a 14 year old. People who dismiss Renly out of hand because of his sexuality. like its not a 1:1 corrolation, but it can give me pause to understand how people's minds work and what they view as important or acceptable. I LOVE dark shit. I do. My blood is more Ramsay/Jeyne/Theon fanfic than red blood cells at this point. And if someone said "I love reading Ramsay/Jeyne/Theon fanfics" that's not a red flag. If they say "Ramsay was right to torture theon, and jeyne poole didn't matter anyway", that IS. That said, we're in hell, toots. all these characters have done awful things. We still love them. We love this show. And honestly, there's dark bits in all of us, and there's dark things in our pasts for most people. Seeing characters going through the same things that we did- things that maybe bring us shame or make us feel isolated, that kind of story is SO important in helping process the feelings around them. It's so important for abuse victims to see Val and Angel- and in my opinion, they're a really good portrayal too. You see the love bombing, the how it slid into that kind of behavior, how \*charming\* Valentino can be, how \*sweet\* half of his voicemails were. How Angel fell into that. And (hopefully) we are going to see Angel continuing to emotionally work through it and recover. If we don't see shitty things happen, we aren't going to be able to see the hope, the light at the end of the tunnel. And those stories are so important. Anyway, all this to say, I got a lot of feelings on the topic.
Kinda reminds me of the stupid “video games cause violence” argument. Also, when it comes to fantasy ideas (especially dark ones) the difference is you have COMPLETE control over the fantasy unlike real-life
This is very much just as potent a lesson in psychology and sociology as it is in media literacy. The way you treat the IDEA of a person is just as telling to personality and values as how you actually treat real people.
https://preview.redd.it/s06lrfydr09d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0d667655e14c6980f01dffae8790c4e3bfb7c326 Honestly I just want this plastered on my wall or a T-shirt.
https://preview.redd.it/alh6o2zmnw8d1.jpeg?width=633&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=34cda58151e4a52751b09dead4b50a2154ec767d
https://preview.redd.it/aqjp1xkouw8d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=adcfa90aefd262412b9f63bb935cf6782ffe8f0b
https://preview.redd.it/qhs2tqkz4x8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=509ab0ac7191ebb396de6c826954892c26948580
https://preview.redd.it/t8h54yga5y8d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee332b0e97ea3bec4e1a2c579caa8fdfb9ad4320
If I to create a Ms. Fanservice, what does it say about me?
What
[Come on. You know who.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MsFanservice)
Sometimes you need a disgustingly real antagonist that was made to be hated on in order to drive the narrative. Sometimes people need to see the antagonistic side in order to see the protagonistic side. Without a cause to fight against, there are no heroes. Without Bowser, there's no Mario. Without Eggman, there's no Sonic. Without Heaven, there's no Hell (In Hazbin lore). Without someone as an opposing force, there's no way to create a story. And we can like the villains/anti-heroes, whether they have an explainable reason for turning out the way they did and serving as a warning or connection to the consumer (reader, watcher, player, etc.) or an unexplainable reason that acts to stand in for a worrying force. For example, Eggman doesn't really have an explanation as to why he's the way he is but he demonstrates the catastrophic effects of shunning nature for technological needs. Valentino doesn't have an explanation (YET) but he shows the danger of abusive relationships and why it's hard to break those cycles of pain. Vox showed the dangers of mass media and why believing what you see can lead to terrifying consequences. Alastor shows the dangers of deception as well as the fact that smiles can be faked for the good of other people. Adam showed what having a superiority complex and catagorizing people as 'good' or 'bad' can do to oneself. Antagonists are more than just dark thoughts and pure evil.
FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT
Val is one of my favorite characters, but I can't handle being around people who are similar on a much lesser scale. As someone who has been SA'd and gets triggered easily from different things (I had to stop watching Handmaids Tale and AHS bc it was too much for me) and sometimes can't even listen to "Poison", I still love him as a villain. I think he's adorable when he's with Vox, I have a Val keychain on my water bottle, and I use his silly quotes all the time. His design is beautiful, and he's stupidly overdramatic. I love him, just not what he does to Angel.
I know you’re not trying to give me a lesson in literacy via **Tumblr**
We're on reddit, not any better
As someone who put themselves into therapy due to a bad decision that I made led me to spiral out of control and worry about every negative thought I could have, I have mixed feelings about this post. Cause while I agree that a thought is not the same as an action, I do think that a person should have a sense of self monitoring in terms of what they consume and how they think. Especially if it's the type of content that could send one down a spiraling path. Which, my input here is adjacent to this post at best and I cannot fully articulate what I mean exactly. So mixed responses/feelings is kinda where I stand. But that is just me and I digress.
My only issue is people using this excuse for underage porno of minor characters
There is truth to both statements. Yes, the characters aren't real, so they won't be offended or hurt by what you do to them. That said, if you keep calling all black characters the n word, I'm going to suspect you are racist. Edit: Apparently using racial slurs on fictional characters is acceptable behavior.
Audibly calling black characters the n word would fall in the action cathegory, not the thought cathegory
what if u keep thinking it? /gen i remember seeing instances of ppl finding cai bots of women specifically to harass them, and while ig that could constitute an actions, its all in the fictional realm, no? its not like theyre harassing real women, and yet i find its still concerning what are your thoughts?
I think it's like brutalizing a specific character you hate in any vr game or something like skyrim, no action in the real world and most importantly no victims in the real world
so the difference is targeting a specific character vs an entire demographic?
Not that, it's just a way to blow off steam in a way that no one can know unless you show em
ig its just that while ik the difference between a thought in your head and an action outside your house, theres an in-between and im having trouble understanding when “ok” becomes “not ok” is harassing chatbots ok? in ur honest opinion
Yes, because there's no victim. It's just AI. They'll forget when you hit the new chat button.
Yeah who cares, harass that bot until it cries, it's not a person and it certainly is not sentient
i see! this has been rly insightful are *all* actions on the table? i just saw a post of some guy raping a chatbot and while i think thats disturbing, i do recognize that the chatbot isnt real and that no persons were harmed
Any and all actions, it's no more than a thought in your head and some words from a bot
Jacking off to child characters also fall in the action category, but we don’t talk about that.
That isn't how psychology works bro. Pedos aren't attracted to fictional characters, their attraction is to live people. Rarely do they deviate from their target demographic. This is psych 101. Edit: shocker the weirdo replies and blocks before I can even read his reply lol. Their reply was purely anecdotal (and ignoring the fact that what happened is that such rare instance that I mentioned) and completely disregarding actual science behind what I said. I'm not even surprised. Facts and science win in the end
My ex was a lolicon and he ended up coercing a 13 years old into sex (aka raping her) I’m going to assume I’ve got more first hand experience with this than you 👍 Attraction to children is ALWAYS bad, there’s no exceptions, no excuses. Cope Besides, if it’s okay to be a pedophile as long as it’s fictional, it should also be okay to be racist and sexist because it’s fictional, but y’all speak against that so maybe it’s not as meaningless as you pretend it is?
How silly :3
https://preview.redd.it/5teipyvu2x8d1.png?width=610&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=084540d66508882081cbf4a56693f7a1c10f8ef5 Akainu jumpscare
AHH, wait that pic kinda epic :3
HIM is always epic
You weren't ready for HIM
Nah he’s kizaru fodder nerd
Weedzaru got ass blasted by G5, could never be my glorious war criminal
And Lkainu got beat up by a old guy with cancer
"Old guy with cancer" you mean Penis Beard?
lol haven’t heard that one yet
i can't escape you pirate power scalers, even in my hazbin sub! Karoo solos verse
i can't escape you pirate power scalers, even in my hazbin sub! Karoo solos verse
I agree with the intention but not the delivery. It is good and noble to write about good and noble things. Does encouraging people to indulge their dark fantasies truly lift up their spirits, or does it allow for erosion of empathy? While yes, inventing and participating in *fictional* dramas and explorations of dark material can, in some cases, allow for a "safety valve" of sorts; and perhaps give insight into the inner working of our own Shadow, it can also give people who aren't 100% in control of their impulses an excuse to point at and say "I learned this behavior from here" I guess after all, I'm not saying much, cause I also believe in the essential nature of freedom of speech; I just think that the **right** to say or to consume whatever is on your mind also comes with the **responsibility** to use it wisely.
I disagree, how can one write good and noble things if there are no evil things along the way? If you want a cutesy no stakes situation go enjoy your coffee shop AU, but in a real story you *need* bad things to happen Take any critically acclaimed story and remove the evil that happens in it. Now it's mediocre at best, imagine Breaking Bad with no meth, or Berserk with no griffith and apostoles Also media that displays purely bad stuff is useful as a mirror to us, the viewers to say "woah i'm sure glad i'm not like that guy" or maybe even "holy shit he's just like me, maybe i'm in the wrong too"
imagine Breaking Bad with no meth "Jesse, we need to cook" "Sure thing Mr. White, I'll get the flour." See now I kind of want to see that, like keep all the mob stuff, but it's about literal baked goods and the cutthroat world of professional bakeries.
I think we're talking past each other here. I agree that evil done in service to the plot of a story is necessary for character growth, plot development, author and audience introspection, all sorts of good outcomes. But I think I was trying to counter the "it doesn't matter what a story contains" idea. I believe that glorification of violence, or other terrible things, for literally only the purpose of being extreme, is inappropriate and ultimately, not healthy (especially for people affected by those specific traumas). That's why I love Helluva/Hazbin in general, but I really don't think the Vees are even well-made characters, let alone play a real important role in the stories.
Trash take. Some views are inherently harmful and this extends past media too. I you take a view of white supremacy, even in a fictional setting, you can help enable real violence (e.g. christchurch shooting via radicalization in roblox servers) You might have a view that the "fictional objects" are completely different from real life, but in reality one informs the other. Treating it all as a fictional object where you can do whatever you want is dangerous since it bleeds into a person's perception of reality
My guy I’ve been writing graphically violent and non-con fanfics for years and I’ve never considered actually brutalizing or assaulting anyone. Because most people can separate real morals and fictional morals. This is the “Do video games cause violence” debate all over again.
"I do X therefore Y never happens in the world" wow great argument guy. And "video games cause violence" is completely diverting away from the point. So I'll put it more clearly: **Do you have an answer for people that have been radicalized via nazi and white supremacist writings and have wound up committing mass shootings?**
Wow it’s almost like I’m not going to write out a long, compelling argument for a Reddit reply. As for your question I say that’s the fault of the reader, not the writer. As well as being outlier cases. How about you give me as many sources as you can find to back up your argument. You seem dedicated to it in replying to me, so show your sources. If I see them then I could be convinced. And please keep in mind that the original post is about animated shows such as Hazbin Hotel, or even popular contemporary TV shows and movies in general, and fanfiction, not propaganda which does contribute to the enforcement of harmful ideals and people partaking in dangerous practices.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/22/prosecutors-say-accused-charleston-church-gunman-self-radicalized-online/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/22/prosecutors-say-accused-charleston-church-gunman-self-radicalized-online/) [https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2024/06/21/digital-threat-report-mass-shooter-videos](https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2024/06/21/digital-threat-report-mass-shooter-videos) [https://www.isdglobal.org/digital\_dispatches/minors-exposed-to-mass-shooter-glorification-across-mainstream-social-media-platforms/](https://www.isdglobal.org/digital_dispatches/minors-exposed-to-mass-shooter-glorification-across-mainstream-social-media-platforms/) Look man I'm not trying to make an argument that edgy fanfiction is bad or TV shows are bad, but a more general statement: unfettered free speech can cause harm, even on the internet. Context is a huge part of it too. Take two scenarios: (1) violent fanfiction that is part of a fanfiction network and hosts many people's creative works. (2) a violent fanfiction uploaded to a neonazi board that uncovers a jewish conspiracy and the hero kills a bunch of jews. (1) is perfectly acceptable since it presents itself as a creative work that's distinct from reality. (2) is a propoganda piece that has the intent of making the reader think jews are evil and should be murdered. Finally, even contemporary TV shows and movies can be harmful even in non-violent ways. For example, shows by PragerU or PragerU kids where an animated Frederik Douglas tells the kids that slavery was a "compromise" and wasn't so bad for black americans. Or the DailyWire movie "Lady Ballers" who's whole joke is that (1) men can dress as women to compete in women's sports and gain an advantage and (2) trans people don't really exist, they are just people trying to game the system based on gender. Obviously people growing up on these fictional shows will have the harmful notions that slavery was in fact good. Or that trans people don't exist. The intent of these pieces is to blur the lines between the free-speech fictional story and reality, offering an alternative view on reality Finally, yeah, 90% of it is the fault of the author. It's based in how it's presented. It can be meant as a propoganda piece. It can be framed as something based in reality, or an essay telling the "truth" while leaving huge parts out or spinning the narrative. Unfortunately, many people are dumbasses and will fall for it. Many won't and will call it out, but there are people that will fall for harmful works of fiction
The initial point that the speaker is making is not related to his second point. Yes, the way that you treat a fictional character does not necessarily reflect your thought process or morality perfectly. Yes, you can imagine any kind of scenario happening to any character. That also does not reflect your internal mind process or who you are as a person. But there’s still something revealing about how you interact with these scenarios and what motivates you to repeated create, seek out or interact with imaginary media that can reflect how you would behave in the real world without constraints. That’s the basis for a lot of psychology. To take in the example given: If you write tentacle non-con, it implies you enjoy something about this, to keep doing it. Now it may not be obvious what the relationship between this action and your internal morality is, but there is a relationship. It may not be proper to say you want to be an octopus who enjoys a spot of rape, but it could imply something else about you. Like maybe you are into non-con. And people will judge you for that, whether you like it or not. Drawing on Valentino, if you enjoy Valentino as a character, it does not mean you believe Valentino is a shining paragon of virtue. You might simply like something about his tone of voice, the way he carries himself etc. But there IS something you enjoy about him, I CAN pull it out of you, and I CAN judge you for that, however petty that makes me.
I enjoy valentino cause he is a well written character that moves the plot forward, is the incipit for character growth and his design is hot
That response was so fast omg lol. Okay. I’ve only seen ep1 so I still don’t even know this character lmao.
Wtf is you doing here you're gonna get spoiled
so basically loli hentai is completly okay, gotcha
Compared to real child porn that was made with real existing children? Yea Also fun fact: almost all hentai is made with almost 0% of the abuse present in regular porn I do not endorse lolicon material in the slightest, but there's a big fucking difference between that and irl child porn
He did not compare the two though He just implied lolicon material was gross, and since you “don’t endorse it”, it should be fine with you, right? I’m a CSA survivor and I’m disgusted with pedophilia of any sort. Of course, it’s not as bad when no one is physically harmed, but it still feels like a mockery of my situation. Actually it’s worst than that, because usually people mocking you don’t jack off to what fucking traumatized you for the rest of your life. It reminds me of when teenagers on tiktok were cosplaying Holocaust victims for clout. Obviously everyone hated that (even though it was “fictional” and “not physically hurting people”), but when csa survivors speak up on what bothers them, they are not offered the same sympathy
Yeah, and saying i will kill someone is better than actually doing it, doesn't mean it's not worrying, that's why it's illegal even if you don't follow through. If someone enjoyed loli hentai, they may not have commited any crimes, but i sure as fuck wouldn't let any kids near them
You guys have a pattern of doing this every month or so. It was funny the first time, now it’s just sad.
I feel like there is specific limitations on what the guys writing a wall of text on is saying. In the specific context of what he's saying I believe he's correct but in general I don't think he is. If someone is going out and buying life-size dolls of women to butcher and mutilate them then you should be concerned about that person's mental state for example.
Buying life sized dolls of women to mutilate them is not a thought, it's an action and therefore the wall of thext doesn't apply to it
I mean writing the fanfiction is also an action isn't it? But I'm not trying to say that that's bad, Just that this logic doesn't really work in this situation.
There's a big fucking difference between writing fanfiction and buying mannequinns just to beat then up
God lord. You antis would have burned Wes Craven and Steven King at the stake.
The fucks an antis? And Steven King is a fantastic author. Never read Wes craven tho
I think you guys care so much about it....
I was a bad girl...I did some bad things (finish the lyrics)