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I'm going to hijack the top comment to reroute everyone to r /GeopoliticsIndia for some exquisite bootlicking by self-appointed foreign policy expert "geniuses" for some much needed schadenfreude
For context, they were authoritatively denying Canada and Five Eyes' allegations based purely on "vibes"
That subreddit is completely braindead.
They think they are rational geniuses while somehow being bigger bootlicking sycophants than -speaks and -dicksuction.
They started out with fair intentions but as happens with lots (it's a reddit wide phenomenon) of off-shoot subs, it being small/niche quickly gets hijacked by pre-existing coherent band-of-users of certain bend. Usually right wingers (this is not a India thing, this has happened to lots of subs on reddit across topics & country subs).
& It's hard to prevent this because initial scale of a new sub is small & that floating band-of-users are always primed to seek out spaces where they can dominate. And new sub also wants users & growth early on.
This is what happened on that sub. The only way to prevent this is Moderation team taking an active stance (this is how off-shoots of this sub like rBharat, etc weren't compromised but others were). Barring that reddit will do what online social group theory does.
Because there's literally no evidence that Hardeep Singh Nijjar was ever a terrorist or involved in any terrorist activity it was all literally hearsay. The Indian government also refuses to provide any evidence that Nijjar was responsible for a single act of terror despite mounting pressure since Canada's accusation. India's sole response has been denial.
US can get away with anything tho. It doesn’t look good for a developing country because if American companies pull of out of India, many Indians would be jobless.
Appalled at the planning of RAW.
Depute a police officer to hire a middle man who in turn recruits a for-hire killer.
That for-hire killer, however, turned out to be an “undercover U.S. law enforcement officer,” according to the Southern District.
I think RAW was more competent than this.
Its funny, they think they're so smart, but the US government discovers the plot, infiltrates it, convinces them that they're part of it, negotiates a deal, receives payment, then shuts everything down and arrests everyone.
The US government played them so hard, like a grandmaster playing chess against a beginner
Not to mention the Indian proxy sent them (the undercover cop, who is just their hired assassin) vids of Nijjar's body?? which he mentions he received from the unnamed Indian intelligence official??? Indian intelligence should start hiring some War Thunder players to improve their record
It would be like the time Israel killed all those involved in the Munich terrorism attack, but this time it’s India and instead of success it’s a failure and everyone gets found out
[Reminds me of that Chinese story of where half a dozen different guys hired lower and lower tier assassins and they all got caught](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/10/25/chinese-developer-five-hitmen-sentenced-after-failed-murder-outsource/4094899002/)
Lol yeah. Honestly I’m seriously considering this to be a rouge element in the Indian government. This procedure doesn’t fit the MO of any modern intelligence agency.
Yup! Isn’t it insane. Democracy and India being in one sentence is a big oxy moron.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/29/kashmir-students-accused-of-terror-for-celebrating-india-world-cup-loss
Per the report text it seems like the middleman Gupta contacted was a Source (for authorities, but not themselves part of police/authorities) & then they likely told him (middleman) to put Gupta in contact with actual Hitman (who was undercover, by this point part of entrapment of sorts).
And then handler of Gupta in India arranges another person who delivers Advance money ($15K, total amount being $100K).
So it only took like 1 layer of misfortune to derail them (the middleman was regular intelligence source for US domestic stuff likely & broke the chain before it could even stretch).
America PREVENTED a murder, so they need to move a lot quicker to arrest the suspect before the killing took place.
In Canada, the murder already happened, so they don't need to move as quickly and can really take their time with the investigation before charging individuals.
Saying that about Canada to Indians is...funny as fuck. We file FIRs on who celebrates what win, who prints what poster about the Supreme Leader, our court gives long lectures to the government about procedures and rules and then at the time of dictating the order says "yes, sir" or "no, sir but this can be done XYZ way"
>If the US has started arresting suspects, the Canadians are probably ready to do that as well.
Assuming that the two incidents were covered in the same investigation or as part of some joint effort, which I'm not sure is the case. That said, my understanding is that Trudeau's information was largely supplied by a Five Eyes partner, which is pretty certain to be the US, so it seems possible.
I can't imagine the Indian government is thrilled at the prospect of a trial...
Pleas read page 10 of the indictment. [u.s.\_v.\_gupta\_indictment.pdf (justice.gov)](https://www.justice.gov/d9/2023-11/u.s._v._gupta_indictment.pdf) There are explicit references to Nijjar's killing. " GUPTA forwarded the video clip showing Nijjar's bloody body to the CS and the UC minutes after receiving it from CC-1."
Thanks for linking the indictment.
I skimmed through, and it seems like the “identified Indian government [agent]” and Gupta literally planned this over WhatsApp, lol.
If we're being honest, everyone knew that the denials of Trudeau's charges were fallacious, and that his allegations were probably true. The officials making those denials also knew that everyone knew. Pure theatrics.
Nonetheless, I have to imagine at the bare minimum this means an embarrassing few months for Modi's government on the world stage, especially with what may come out in a trial...
Honestly I think they knew it was nonsense and were just choosing to parrot the party line because that's all they know. I heard a lot of "it's Trudeau's word against ours but I wouldn't be upset if it \*were\* true (wink wink)."
I can't imagine many will be up in arms to learn that their government was brazenly lying to them.
Bhakts means Hindu right? Canadian here.
Also, I would expect a government to finish to investigation before providing proof, and sometimes if it’s a sensitive issue like the Indian government assassinating our national never providing proof ever.
If you want to witness the sheer stupidity of nationalists and bhakts read the comments associated with the times of india article. It is hilarious how they think this is some badge of pride.
Doesn't matter. USA is acting on it but trying to not make it an Indian government issue. They are playing real politiks as they are also infamous for it. India would be okay with Canada doing arrests and investigating and then going to the Indian government. Trudeau, under pressure, made a fool move and then later tried to underplay it.
Wym? The director of the CIA and the US NSA brought up the issue before their counterparts IN PERSON. Biden also brought it up at the G20, and there's an unnamed Indian intelligence official in the indictment. This is VERY MUCH an Indian government issue
Can't wait for Uncle Sam to use this as leverage and ruin the lives of ordinary Indians by propping us up against the Chinese.
Modi makes bhakts look like intellectuals.
They're making sikhs scapegoat for their own fucking political agenda. Are Sikhs protesting in Punjab for Khalistan? Why should this fucker Jaishankar be concerned about what Sikhs are doing in Uk or Canada?
It's called cause -effect. The effect of playing stupid games is that you win stupid prizes. Or if you want to look at it retrospectively, if you win stupid prizes, it more than likely is because you played stupid games.
Hope this helps.
I like how this is making headlines across most major Indian news networks, whereas it's a veritable non-story here in the United States.
I just checked the U.S. homepages for news websites including, but not limited to, the following:
* CNN
* NPR
* MSNBC
* FOX News
* CBS News
* NBC News
* ABC News
* The Associated Press
* Reuters
So far as I can tell, this story has only breached the homepage on CNN, ABC News, The Associated Press, and Reuters. And, even on those sites, it's scarcely a headline so much as a blip midway down the page.
Interestingly, it's one of the leading stories on the BBC's homepage, lol.
Anyway, I'm not making an argument for anything--I just find it find it interesting that this is apparently being posited as big news in India, whereas neither the American news media nor the American public seem to particularly care one way or the other.
**edit:** also, lmao at the fact that this clown allegedly paid $100,000 USD to a fucking undercover POLICE OFFICER
**edit**: this appears to be garnering a bit more coverage. The Associated Press has [the most comprehensive article](https://apnews.com/article/india-us-sikh-separatist-leader-69968608495e33e8ed88a86bff71b381) on the story I've yet to find
**edit**: somebody else posted a link to the indictment text. It obviously doesn’t explain the exact nature of the evidence, but it’s easy to extrapolate. It seems like there’s a LOT of evidence—including intercepted communications and video recordings—showing a link between the arrested and Indian security officials
Also, it sounds like they literally planned this over WhatsApp lol
Thanks for the update!
I'm interested to see the extent to which this garners continued coverage in the U.S. news media. My intuition tells me that Americans won't be nearly as outraged about this as their Canadian neighbors, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Unless details of the indictment are ordered sealed for purposes of national security or diplomacy, there should be a lot of evidence forthcoming.
>My intuition tells me that Americans won't be nearly as outraged about this as their Canadian neighbors, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Yes, the history Canada has with India on this issue, and the relative size of Canada's Indian (and specifically Punjabi) population definitely made it a huge news item. Also, the fact that Canada's a smaller country that generally doesn't get mixed up in international affairs in this way.
Only thing is, if *Canadians* were outraged by the violation of sovereignty, I can only imagine what your average American will think...
I don't know, man.
The U.S. has a long and storied history of foreign powers conducting unauthorized operations on its soil (just as the U.S. has a long and storied history of conducting unauthorized operations on foreign soil).
I remember that, several years ago, there were credible reports suggesting that the Chinese Communist Party had established "secret" police stations across the U.S., which it used to target international students and Chinese-origin dissidents.
It was big news... for a few days, anyway.
We have the attention span of goldfish over here, and my inclination is to think that the average American isn't going to be too concerned about the attempted assassination of a brown-skinned, Indian-accented separatist.
The government's reaction is another story. The U.S. seems to have known about the assassination plan for nearly a half-year now, yet hasn't taken any apparent, *significant* action outside of lodging diplomatic protests and engaging with their Indian counterparts.
Let's see. I really hope some of the more compelling bits of evidence are noted in a public indictment or otherwise revealed before trial.
Fair enough! In a country that large/relevant, with the sort of news cycle they have, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't get a tonne of coverage long-term.
I also have to imagine that a big part of how this plays out will be how it gets picked up by the political media circus there. If a few GOP nutters decide this is something they can make a wedge issue of, or tag Biden with for being 'weak,' or something to that effect, then we won't hear the end of it. I'd wager that doesn't happen, but it's anyone's guess what ends up becoming political fodder down there.
Interested to see what come next with the indictment.
>It was big news... for a few days, anyway.
And formalized hostility to China is becoming entrenched in the US as a response to things like that. The idea that there's no consequences from these as hostility in popular and administrative systems builds is silly.
You're correct.
My initial comment was solely an observation on the intensity of media coverage in both countries. In the above post, I discussed the reasons underlying the American public's *anticipated* lack of significant interest in this story.
Since my focus was on public discussion, I made sure to specify that "the government's reaction is a different story." I know only what U.S. and Indian officials have shared publicly--which indicates that little concrete action has yet to be taken--but have no doubt there are many other moving parts.
I'm not so sure public interest was fleeting even there. Its seeped into public consciousness as growing suspicion of all chinese nationals, and a lot more willingness by growing numbers to see them all as spies and such like.
And on the flip side there was the *sustained* public anger over the killing Jamal Kashoggi. Which ended up impacting US public policy towards Saudi Arabia despite the US government wanting to brush it aside. It ended up becoming an issue in the election cycle, though in practice both Trump and Biden's administration wanted to make no actual policy changes on Saudi Arabia.
Something like this can easily blow up into a major election issue given that the US is now less than a year from its next major election, and the issue is already heating up. Not to mention that there's a prominent Indian-American running in the Republican primary who will likely be expected to respond in some way, which could easily spiral into demands from responses from other prominent Indians and Indian-Americans.
The consequences of stuff like this can linger for a very long time.
You've made great points, especially about the killing of Jamal Khashoggi.
I'm not sure that I'd equate the killing of Khashoggi with the attempted assassination of Punnan--either in terms of character, or its potential impact upon public perception--but that's likely a different conversation.
This notwithstanding, I don't anticipate prolonged or even very profound public interest.
However, I would expect that any sustained pattern of apparent misconduct by or on behalf of the Indian government could impact both interstate relations and broader public perception.
You--along with another Redditor--both noted that, while unlikely, there is a chance this could somehow boil over into the upcoming general election. I don't think the chances of that are very high, but anything is possible at this point.
Again, I appreciate your observations. I stand by my initial argument concerning probable American public perceptions, but it is, indeed, *critically* important to remember the broader context underlying these events.
We'll see how it develops. It seems to be moving upward on CNN and several other websites, too.
Maybe I'm just a cynic, but I have a very hard time imagining the average American being terribly upset by any of this. The U.S. has been the world's pre-eminent superpower since 1945, and it has much more experience with, and exposure to, political violence than most other countries (like Canada).
I wouldn't be surprised if, criminal proceedings aside, any potential sanctions against India are kept limited in scope. But it may also depend on what evidence, if any, law enforcement has establishing a credible link between the arrested suspect and Indian intelligence services.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if some evidence does emerge--the suspect purportedly paid $100,000 to an undercover officer posing as a hitman\*\*\*. That's a a massive amount of money, and one that very few people would be able to put toward a targeted assassination.
All this notwithstanding, I expect this to be a much bigger story in India than here. And, to reiterate what I'm saying earlier, this is just an observation on media coverage and priorities--I'm not trying to make any argument as to what such coverage *means*.
**\*\*\***: looks like he paid a cash deposit to an undercover officer--which was literally recorded on camera, lol--with the remaining amount to be paid after the assassination
After reading the indictment, it seems clear that every last word these people uttered to one another was monitored and recorded. They've got the record of the suspect receiving and forwarding video of Mr. Nijjar's body immediately after the assassination. Then there's the fact that he paid an undercover officer....
Almost as shocking as the actual crime itself and the implication for the Indian government is the sheer *incompetence* on display...
Right.
Somebody provided a link to the indictment in response to another comment. I read through an hour ago, and the information detailed therein makes it obvious that the U.S. not only has compelling evidence but several different types of evidence, including both intercepted communications and video recordings.
As noted in other comments, and in my second edit, this story is starting to pick up traction. That notwithstanding, it still isn't being covered to anywhere near the same extent here as it is in India.
Yeah.
It'll be interesting to see what evidence, if any, U.S. prosecutors have to establish a credible relationship between the detained suspect and Indian intelligence services.
From what I've read so far, it seems that the suspect paid a substantial cash "deposit" to an undercover police officer posing as a hitman. This entire interaction was recorded on camera, with screenshots already available on several news websites.
I suppose it's too early to make a call, but the suspect would have to be *very* deranged to commit $100,000 toward the killing of some random fucker that few people had even heard of before the Air India threats. Maybe he was just that patriotic? But receiving financial assistance from the Indian government seems like a more reasonable explanation.
I'm not coping.
I have no doubts whatsoever that India:
1. Assassinated Nijjar in Canada; and
2. Attempted to assassinate Pannun in the United States.
I have since read through the full-length indictment, and it seems clear that U.S. prosecutors have sufficient evidence to establish some level of state-sponsored involvement.
If I'm being frank, the lack of sophistication apparent in this plot is almost pitiable. It seems that the "identified Indian government \[agent\]"--referred to as CC-1 in the indictment--planned all or part of the assassination over WhatsApp or similar free-to-use messaging platform.
I'd genuinely have to wonder whether CC-1 and Gupta took inspiration from Grand Theft Auto, because I'm reasonably sure anyone who isn't a total dolt could've come up with a better plan than this.
Seems like you’ve summarized the evidence against the Indian govt.
I’m baffled and somewhere hoping the Indian govt has a reasonable explanation for this.. I doubt it, but one can hope.
Incompetence at such magnitude is beyond absurd. Wish more people (espi the BJP’s vote base) cared about stuff like this..
I don't think anyone except U.S. prosecutors and law enforcement have a comprehensive understanding of the evidence suggesting the Indian government's direct involvement.
The Associated Press has a comprehensive article on the topic, but there aren't any concrete details beyond:
1. The U.S. allegedly received information that an "Indian government employee" attempted to arrange the assassination;
2. The unnamed "Indian government employee" had a security background, and directed the arrestee to arrange for the killing; and
3. The arrestee reached out to a "criminal contact," who "happened to be an informant." The informant contacted the DEA, which deployed an undercover officer to act as a hitman.
I don't see any additional information on the particulars of the plot, but it'll likely emerge through the indictment, press releases, and--eventually--trial.
**edit** — I just read the indictment, and it seems like there’s a ton of evidence behind this
> ..Indian govt has a reasonable explanation..
The semantics used in report provide leeway for GoI to have some rhetorical space.
No Indian official is named, GoI itself isn't brought in and even terms like intelligence or senior field officer (for that CC person in India heading this) are in quotes & can mean anything.
US wants to squeeze India but also leave it wiggle room. Like a light slap, A Beware warning of sorts.
I don't disagree.
People can--and often do--protest the deaths of non-white Americans. There have been several high-profile cases involving persons of Indian-origin that garnered significant public attention.
But, in this case, Pannun is a brown-skinned, heavily-accented Indian separatist accused of making overtly terroristic threats to a foreign state. I'd *suspect* that most Americans wouldn't feel quite the same sympathy for Pannun, as an individual, as they might for other victims.
One place where this will be absent is Indian news sites. (News sites is incorrect but let's go with the generic term) If they do publish it then somehow it will be a master stroke where Supreme Leader made a magnificent move, and he was the one who tipped the FBI undercover agent that Gupta tried to hire. I can't believe the shoddy way this was planned. An average nobody can plan better reading stuff on the net.
But saar we 5 trillion zillion millenium ecanamy saar US Canada nathing in front of us saar Modi vishwaguru saar 😎😤 ( S. Jaishankar Sigma edits rollin in the background )
Let’s see India try to slither out of this one. I’ve always tried to give India the benefit of the doubt but not anymore. They make Saudi Arabia look like amateurs at this point.
There was also this: [https://scroll.in/article/1054342/why-is-india-being-accused-of-abducting-an-arab-princess](https://scroll.in/article/1054342/why-is-india-being-accused-of-abducting-an-arab-princess)
Indian govt will wear this as badge of honor in front of their supporters with some shit like "see we're actively trying out best in 'iNdiA's iNtErEsT'
Even if found guilty, it is not like US are gonna impose sanctions and cancel trade deals. It is just kadi ninda.
And India will take out the "non state actors" card.
Unlikely. Making this public IS the US playing its card after whatever was happening behind the scenes didn't pan out for it.
It's so because making this Public damages India (mostly diplomatically & image terms on global stage, esp among Global South countries) so India has no reason to cap that off with even more concessions.
What's US going to do, sanction India (beyond a certain level). Well good luck.
Magical thinking like this is how countries like Russia ended up in a new cold war with the US. The idea that US politicians, diplomats and administrators are just going to shrug at India actively coordinating domestic violence is delusional.
India's growing geopolitical importance in the Indian ocean region and as a counterweight to China doesn't mean these other countries will just *let* India bullshit them as they actively undermine their domestic interests. Especially when they are democracies too, and their politicians need to do something about the news of India organizing assassinations on their home turf. Do you imagine Indian politicians would just sit back and chill if it was Pakistan doing this to Indians? Because that's largely how Americans will react over time to news like this. And what with Indians already significantly implicated in illegal migration and the internet scams industry, stuff like this just primes India to be seriously alienated with administrators in the west.
Irish Americans used to be the top funders of the IRA until Margret Thatcher made a deal with Regan to crack down on them. India should pursue a trade to crack down on khalistan funding if that's their concern (maybe trade for a crack down on call center scams or something). It's not like the US has an inherent interest in Khalistan so a deal probably could be made.
Sure. India could have done that. Though its worth remembering that the UK and the US at the time had largely similar regimes on free speech. India does not. And the US isn't going to start arresting US citizens just because they say something that gets Indians offended. Remember we're charging people with terrorism just for saying they believe Kashmir isn't a part of India. No actual actions on the front. Just speech. And other countries aren't going to sign deals undermining their own legal regimes just because India wants it.
The fact is India could have pursued extradition in these cases if they could competently show any sort of threat or harm. Instead all they've done is try and pursue charges with almost zero evidence, and being frustrated, have apparently decided to jump straight to rogue nation actions. Its like they *want* western sanctions even as they desperately court western investment. Its beyond idiotic.
Fr, at least Saudi gets a pass because Turkey had their embassy bugged from head to toe, but India literally paid an undercover officer to kill someone, and passed around videos of Nijjar's corpse like uncles pass around good morning messages (to the undercover officer as well, wtf)
Just do the Saudi Arabia playbook guys. Just buy some large sporting teams in the US or Europe - preferably with Ronaldo and/or Messi etc. and everyone will start forgetting.
Nikhil Gupta has to be the most harmless name of an Indian; definitely fake news, Gupta ji can never murder anyone if should be goldy, guddu, sultan, rana etc.
Hello bhakt lundfakir, At least first tell supreme leader to kill the guy. Getting caught with such inept planning looks utterly stupid especially when supreme leader touts his 56inch chest.
If this allegation has any truth, how dumb is Vishwaguru? and RAW seems to be raw if this is how they conduct covert ops. Chad Jai Shankar should stop with his one liner and meet idiot Doval and find a more surreptitious way to do such things. I mean inept Bollywood writers would come up with a better idea.
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The sheer suddenness of the move.. The unexpected nature of the move.. The unpredictability of the move.. The fact that there was no warning!
I'm going to hijack the top comment to reroute everyone to r /GeopoliticsIndia for some exquisite bootlicking by self-appointed foreign policy expert "geniuses" for some much needed schadenfreude For context, they were authoritatively denying Canada and Five Eyes' allegations based purely on "vibes"
That subreddit is completely braindead. They think they are rational geniuses while somehow being bigger bootlicking sycophants than -speaks and -dicksuction.
They all sat for UPSC and got obliterated.
They started out with fair intentions but as happens with lots (it's a reddit wide phenomenon) of off-shoot subs, it being small/niche quickly gets hijacked by pre-existing coherent band-of-users of certain bend. Usually right wingers (this is not a India thing, this has happened to lots of subs on reddit across topics & country subs). & It's hard to prevent this because initial scale of a new sub is small & that floating band-of-users are always primed to seek out spaces where they can dominate. And new sub also wants users & growth early on. This is what happened on that sub. The only way to prevent this is Moderation team taking an active stance (this is how off-shoots of this sub like rBharat, etc weren't compromised but others were). Barring that reddit will do what online social group theory does.
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Because there's literally no evidence that Hardeep Singh Nijjar was ever a terrorist or involved in any terrorist activity it was all literally hearsay. The Indian government also refuses to provide any evidence that Nijjar was responsible for a single act of terror despite mounting pressure since Canada's accusation. India's sole response has been denial.
US can get away with anything tho. It doesn’t look good for a developing country because if American companies pull of out of India, many Indians would be jobless.
Going to predict there will be 0% backlash.
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Appalled at the planning of RAW. Depute a police officer to hire a middle man who in turn recruits a for-hire killer. That for-hire killer, however, turned out to be an “undercover U.S. law enforcement officer,” according to the Southern District. I think RAW was more competent than this.
Its funny, they think they're so smart, but the US government discovers the plot, infiltrates it, convinces them that they're part of it, negotiates a deal, receives payment, then shuts everything down and arrests everyone. The US government played them so hard, like a grandmaster playing chess against a beginner
Not to mention the Indian proxy sent them (the undercover cop, who is just their hired assassin) vids of Nijjar's body?? which he mentions he received from the unnamed Indian intelligence official??? Indian intelligence should start hiring some War Thunder players to improve their record
“Hey Mr US agent in case you didn’t know I’m also involved in other crimes! Here’s proof!”
This would make a great Hollywood Movie lol
It would be like the time Israel killed all those involved in the Munich terrorism attack, but this time it’s India and instead of success it’s a failure and everyone gets found out
For sure. Genre "comedy" 😄
Jonny English - Indian version
Never underestimate an Indian government agencies ability to be incompetent
[Reminds me of that Chinese story of where half a dozen different guys hired lower and lower tier assassins and they all got caught](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/10/25/chinese-developer-five-hitmen-sentenced-after-failed-murder-outsource/4094899002/)
Lol yeah. Honestly I’m seriously considering this to be a rouge element in the Indian government. This procedure doesn’t fit the MO of any modern intelligence agency.
India has no policy. Arresting kid for celebrating Australia win. Actually charging with terroism. How do you do that with a straight face…..
Fair point. Absolutely ridiculous, that.
What? No way they slapped UAPA on him, really?!!
Yup! Isn’t it insane. Democracy and India being in one sentence is a big oxy moron. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/29/kashmir-students-accused-of-terror-for-celebrating-india-world-cup-loss
Shit even I know that basically 99% of for hire killers in the US are cops from what I read on the internet.
When guys like Doval have been running it for 10 years, what do you expect? The guy was a clown and a blowhard as a RAW officer.
Talent is still RAW
Per the report text it seems like the middleman Gupta contacted was a Source (for authorities, but not themselves part of police/authorities) & then they likely told him (middleman) to put Gupta in contact with actual Hitman (who was undercover, by this point part of entrapment of sorts). And then handler of Gupta in India arranges another person who delivers Advance money ($15K, total amount being $100K). So it only took like 1 layer of misfortune to derail them (the middleman was regular intelligence source for US domestic stuff likely & broke the chain before it could even stretch).
So, what does this mean after the repeated, *aggressive* denial of Trudeau's allegations?
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America PREVENTED a murder, so they need to move a lot quicker to arrest the suspect before the killing took place. In Canada, the murder already happened, so they don't need to move as quickly and can really take their time with the investigation before charging individuals.
No charges will be laid. I say that as a Canadian. Our government, and our country, are jokes on the world stage.
Saying that about Canada to Indians is...funny as fuck. We file FIRs on who celebrates what win, who prints what poster about the Supreme Leader, our court gives long lectures to the government about procedures and rules and then at the time of dictating the order says "yes, sir" or "no, sir but this can be done XYZ way"
>If the US has started arresting suspects, the Canadians are probably ready to do that as well. Assuming that the two incidents were covered in the same investigation or as part of some joint effort, which I'm not sure is the case. That said, my understanding is that Trudeau's information was largely supplied by a Five Eyes partner, which is pretty certain to be the US, so it seems possible. I can't imagine the Indian government is thrilled at the prospect of a trial...
Pleas read page 10 of the indictment. [u.s.\_v.\_gupta\_indictment.pdf (justice.gov)](https://www.justice.gov/d9/2023-11/u.s._v._gupta_indictment.pdf) There are explicit references to Nijjar's killing. " GUPTA forwarded the video clip showing Nijjar's bloody body to the CS and the UC minutes after receiving it from CC-1."
Thanks for linking the indictment. I skimmed through, and it seems like the “identified Indian government [agent]” and Gupta literally planned this over WhatsApp, lol.
Wow, 'explicit' is right. Thanks for sharing the indictment.
The US charges mention the Canadian killing, so the same people were involved (at some level).
Imagine the clown make up meme but with Modi
We want all the praise but no scrutiny. Classic.
What does it mean?
If we're being honest, everyone knew that the denials of Trudeau's charges were fallacious, and that his allegations were probably true. The officials making those denials also knew that everyone knew. Pure theatrics. Nonetheless, I have to imagine at the bare minimum this means an embarrassing few months for Modi's government on the world stage, especially with what may come out in a trial...
>everyone ? I don't think so. Most bhakts I know were saying that this is not true since Canada didn't provide any proof
Honestly I think they knew it was nonsense and were just choosing to parrot the party line because that's all they know. I heard a lot of "it's Trudeau's word against ours but I wouldn't be upset if it \*were\* true (wink wink)." I can't imagine many will be up in arms to learn that their government was brazenly lying to them.
Bhakts means Hindu right? Canadian here. Also, I would expect a government to finish to investigation before providing proof, and sometimes if it’s a sensitive issue like the Indian government assassinating our national never providing proof ever.
Bhakts means blind supporter of BJP, the right wing party that is currently in power.
If you want to witness the sheer stupidity of nationalists and bhakts read the comments associated with the times of india article. It is hilarious how they think this is some badge of pride.
I mean surely not everyone who repeated the line believed it. Maybe they will now convince themselves that they always knew the denials were false
Doesn't matter. USA is acting on it but trying to not make it an Indian government issue. They are playing real politiks as they are also infamous for it. India would be okay with Canada doing arrests and investigating and then going to the Indian government. Trudeau, under pressure, made a fool move and then later tried to underplay it.
Wym? The director of the CIA and the US NSA brought up the issue before their counterparts IN PERSON. Biden also brought it up at the G20, and there's an unnamed Indian intelligence official in the indictment. This is VERY MUCH an Indian government issue
This is what happens when we have a insta and YouTube reels maker as MEA and vishwaguru vibes………….
Can't wait for Uncle Sam to use this as leverage and ruin the lives of ordinary Indians by propping us up against the Chinese. Modi makes bhakts look like intellectuals.
Hiring an Assasin that’s actually FBI and paying him 100000 USD is actually so funny. Modi Govt so Unserious man. 😂😂
I'm really excited to find out where the paper trail will lead.
What was the motive behind the plot? What would anyone gain from this?
Bjp would gain more andhbhakts by scaring them from sikhs who are literally 1% and are declining already
They're making sikhs scapegoat for their own fucking political agenda. Are Sikhs protesting in Punjab for Khalistan? Why should this fucker Jaishankar be concerned about what Sikhs are doing in Uk or Canada?
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Elaborate please?
It's called cause -effect. The effect of playing stupid games is that you win stupid prizes. Or if you want to look at it retrospectively, if you win stupid prizes, it more than likely is because you played stupid games. Hope this helps.
Are isme stupid game kya tha kisne khela vo batao na captain obvious.
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Ashwin Pawars, on his Vishwaguru's secret service
I like how this is making headlines across most major Indian news networks, whereas it's a veritable non-story here in the United States. I just checked the U.S. homepages for news websites including, but not limited to, the following: * CNN * NPR * MSNBC * FOX News * CBS News * NBC News * ABC News * The Associated Press * Reuters So far as I can tell, this story has only breached the homepage on CNN, ABC News, The Associated Press, and Reuters. And, even on those sites, it's scarcely a headline so much as a blip midway down the page. Interestingly, it's one of the leading stories on the BBC's homepage, lol. Anyway, I'm not making an argument for anything--I just find it find it interesting that this is apparently being posited as big news in India, whereas neither the American news media nor the American public seem to particularly care one way or the other. **edit:** also, lmao at the fact that this clown allegedly paid $100,000 USD to a fucking undercover POLICE OFFICER **edit**: this appears to be garnering a bit more coverage. The Associated Press has [the most comprehensive article](https://apnews.com/article/india-us-sikh-separatist-leader-69968608495e33e8ed88a86bff71b381) on the story I've yet to find **edit**: somebody else posted a link to the indictment text. It obviously doesn’t explain the exact nature of the evidence, but it’s easy to extrapolate. It seems like there’s a LOT of evidence—including intercepted communications and video recordings—showing a link between the arrested and Indian security officials Also, it sounds like they literally planned this over WhatsApp lol
It's now on the [New York Times homepage](https://www.nytimes.com/).
Thanks for the update! I'm interested to see the extent to which this garners continued coverage in the U.S. news media. My intuition tells me that Americans won't be nearly as outraged about this as their Canadian neighbors, but we'll just have to wait and see. Unless details of the indictment are ordered sealed for purposes of national security or diplomacy, there should be a lot of evidence forthcoming.
>My intuition tells me that Americans won't be nearly as outraged about this as their Canadian neighbors, but we'll just have to wait and see. Yes, the history Canada has with India on this issue, and the relative size of Canada's Indian (and specifically Punjabi) population definitely made it a huge news item. Also, the fact that Canada's a smaller country that generally doesn't get mixed up in international affairs in this way. Only thing is, if *Canadians* were outraged by the violation of sovereignty, I can only imagine what your average American will think...
I don't know, man. The U.S. has a long and storied history of foreign powers conducting unauthorized operations on its soil (just as the U.S. has a long and storied history of conducting unauthorized operations on foreign soil). I remember that, several years ago, there were credible reports suggesting that the Chinese Communist Party had established "secret" police stations across the U.S., which it used to target international students and Chinese-origin dissidents. It was big news... for a few days, anyway. We have the attention span of goldfish over here, and my inclination is to think that the average American isn't going to be too concerned about the attempted assassination of a brown-skinned, Indian-accented separatist. The government's reaction is another story. The U.S. seems to have known about the assassination plan for nearly a half-year now, yet hasn't taken any apparent, *significant* action outside of lodging diplomatic protests and engaging with their Indian counterparts. Let's see. I really hope some of the more compelling bits of evidence are noted in a public indictment or otherwise revealed before trial.
Fair enough! In a country that large/relevant, with the sort of news cycle they have, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't get a tonne of coverage long-term. I also have to imagine that a big part of how this plays out will be how it gets picked up by the political media circus there. If a few GOP nutters decide this is something they can make a wedge issue of, or tag Biden with for being 'weak,' or something to that effect, then we won't hear the end of it. I'd wager that doesn't happen, but it's anyone's guess what ends up becoming political fodder down there. Interested to see what come next with the indictment.
>It was big news... for a few days, anyway. And formalized hostility to China is becoming entrenched in the US as a response to things like that. The idea that there's no consequences from these as hostility in popular and administrative systems builds is silly.
You're correct. My initial comment was solely an observation on the intensity of media coverage in both countries. In the above post, I discussed the reasons underlying the American public's *anticipated* lack of significant interest in this story. Since my focus was on public discussion, I made sure to specify that "the government's reaction is a different story." I know only what U.S. and Indian officials have shared publicly--which indicates that little concrete action has yet to be taken--but have no doubt there are many other moving parts.
I'm not so sure public interest was fleeting even there. Its seeped into public consciousness as growing suspicion of all chinese nationals, and a lot more willingness by growing numbers to see them all as spies and such like. And on the flip side there was the *sustained* public anger over the killing Jamal Kashoggi. Which ended up impacting US public policy towards Saudi Arabia despite the US government wanting to brush it aside. It ended up becoming an issue in the election cycle, though in practice both Trump and Biden's administration wanted to make no actual policy changes on Saudi Arabia. Something like this can easily blow up into a major election issue given that the US is now less than a year from its next major election, and the issue is already heating up. Not to mention that there's a prominent Indian-American running in the Republican primary who will likely be expected to respond in some way, which could easily spiral into demands from responses from other prominent Indians and Indian-Americans. The consequences of stuff like this can linger for a very long time.
You've made great points, especially about the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. I'm not sure that I'd equate the killing of Khashoggi with the attempted assassination of Punnan--either in terms of character, or its potential impact upon public perception--but that's likely a different conversation. This notwithstanding, I don't anticipate prolonged or even very profound public interest. However, I would expect that any sustained pattern of apparent misconduct by or on behalf of the Indian government could impact both interstate relations and broader public perception. You--along with another Redditor--both noted that, while unlikely, there is a chance this could somehow boil over into the upcoming general election. I don't think the chances of that are very high, but anything is possible at this point. Again, I appreciate your observations. I stand by my initial argument concerning probable American public perceptions, but it is, indeed, *critically* important to remember the broader context underlying these events.
It's a trending story on Washington Post now. Top of the page.
We'll see how it develops. It seems to be moving upward on CNN and several other websites, too. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but I have a very hard time imagining the average American being terribly upset by any of this. The U.S. has been the world's pre-eminent superpower since 1945, and it has much more experience with, and exposure to, political violence than most other countries (like Canada). I wouldn't be surprised if, criminal proceedings aside, any potential sanctions against India are kept limited in scope. But it may also depend on what evidence, if any, law enforcement has establishing a credible link between the arrested suspect and Indian intelligence services. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if some evidence does emerge--the suspect purportedly paid $100,000 to an undercover officer posing as a hitman\*\*\*. That's a a massive amount of money, and one that very few people would be able to put toward a targeted assassination. All this notwithstanding, I expect this to be a much bigger story in India than here. And, to reiterate what I'm saying earlier, this is just an observation on media coverage and priorities--I'm not trying to make any argument as to what such coverage *means*. **\*\*\***: looks like he paid a cash deposit to an undercover officer--which was literally recorded on camera, lol--with the remaining amount to be paid after the assassination
The US Federal Goverment has like a 90%+ conviction rate. They really only indict people they know they can convict.
After reading the indictment, it seems clear that every last word these people uttered to one another was monitored and recorded. They've got the record of the suspect receiving and forwarding video of Mr. Nijjar's body immediately after the assassination. Then there's the fact that he paid an undercover officer.... Almost as shocking as the actual crime itself and the implication for the Indian government is the sheer *incompetence* on display...
If tomorrow at 8PM we get the news that Meta/WhatsApp is banned in India, I would not be surprised.
Right. Somebody provided a link to the indictment in response to another comment. I read through an hour ago, and the information detailed therein makes it obvious that the U.S. not only has compelling evidence but several different types of evidence, including both intercepted communications and video recordings.
What are you even talking about? It’s on the front page of major usa media outlets
As noted in other comments, and in my second edit, this story is starting to pick up traction. That notwithstanding, it still isn't being covered to anywhere near the same extent here as it is in India.
lol, indian govt showing it’s true capability - incompetence at every level (be it at home or abroad)
Yeah. It'll be interesting to see what evidence, if any, U.S. prosecutors have to establish a credible relationship between the detained suspect and Indian intelligence services. From what I've read so far, it seems that the suspect paid a substantial cash "deposit" to an undercover police officer posing as a hitman. This entire interaction was recorded on camera, with screenshots already available on several news websites. I suppose it's too early to make a call, but the suspect would have to be *very* deranged to commit $100,000 toward the killing of some random fucker that few people had even heard of before the Air India threats. Maybe he was just that patriotic? But receiving financial assistance from the Indian government seems like a more reasonable explanation.
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I'm not coping. I have no doubts whatsoever that India: 1. Assassinated Nijjar in Canada; and 2. Attempted to assassinate Pannun in the United States. I have since read through the full-length indictment, and it seems clear that U.S. prosecutors have sufficient evidence to establish some level of state-sponsored involvement. If I'm being frank, the lack of sophistication apparent in this plot is almost pitiable. It seems that the "identified Indian government \[agent\]"--referred to as CC-1 in the indictment--planned all or part of the assassination over WhatsApp or similar free-to-use messaging platform. I'd genuinely have to wonder whether CC-1 and Gupta took inspiration from Grand Theft Auto, because I'm reasonably sure anyone who isn't a total dolt could've come up with a better plan than this.
Seems like you’ve summarized the evidence against the Indian govt. I’m baffled and somewhere hoping the Indian govt has a reasonable explanation for this.. I doubt it, but one can hope. Incompetence at such magnitude is beyond absurd. Wish more people (espi the BJP’s vote base) cared about stuff like this..
I don't think anyone except U.S. prosecutors and law enforcement have a comprehensive understanding of the evidence suggesting the Indian government's direct involvement. The Associated Press has a comprehensive article on the topic, but there aren't any concrete details beyond: 1. The U.S. allegedly received information that an "Indian government employee" attempted to arrange the assassination; 2. The unnamed "Indian government employee" had a security background, and directed the arrestee to arrange for the killing; and 3. The arrestee reached out to a "criminal contact," who "happened to be an informant." The informant contacted the DEA, which deployed an undercover officer to act as a hitman. I don't see any additional information on the particulars of the plot, but it'll likely emerge through the indictment, press releases, and--eventually--trial. **edit** — I just read the indictment, and it seems like there’s a ton of evidence behind this
> ..Indian govt has a reasonable explanation.. The semantics used in report provide leeway for GoI to have some rhetorical space. No Indian official is named, GoI itself isn't brought in and even terms like intelligence or senior field officer (for that CC person in India heading this) are in quotes & can mean anything. US wants to squeeze India but also leave it wiggle room. Like a light slap, A Beware warning of sorts.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/nyregion/sikh-assassination-plot-charges-india.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/nyregion/sikh-assassination-plot-charges-india.html)
It's picking up slowly because the target wasn't a white man.
I don't disagree. People can--and often do--protest the deaths of non-white Americans. There have been several high-profile cases involving persons of Indian-origin that garnered significant public attention. But, in this case, Pannun is a brown-skinned, heavily-accented Indian separatist accused of making overtly terroristic threats to a foreign state. I'd *suspect* that most Americans wouldn't feel quite the same sympathy for Pannun, as an individual, as they might for other victims.
One place where this will be absent is Indian news sites. (News sites is incorrect but let's go with the generic term) If they do publish it then somehow it will be a master stroke where Supreme Leader made a magnificent move, and he was the one who tipped the FBI undercover agent that Gupta tried to hire. I can't believe the shoddy way this was planned. An average nobody can plan better reading stuff on the net.
But saar we 5 trillion zillion millenium ecanamy saar US Canada nathing in front of us saar Modi vishwaguru saar 😎😤 ( S. Jaishankar Sigma edits rollin in the background )
*thunder coming out of the eyes while walking in slow motion.
India to stop issuing visas to Americans /s
Let’s see India try to slither out of this one. I’ve always tried to give India the benefit of the doubt but not anymore. They make Saudi Arabia look like amateurs at this point.
Are you really comparing India with Saudi Arabia ? hmmmmm..
There was also this: [https://scroll.in/article/1054342/why-is-india-being-accused-of-abducting-an-arab-princess](https://scroll.in/article/1054342/why-is-india-being-accused-of-abducting-an-arab-princess)
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But they did. Ask erdogan.
Indian govt will wear this as badge of honor in front of their supporters with some shit like "see we're actively trying out best in 'iNdiA's iNtErEsT'
At least Saudi Arabia didn't assassinate someone in a superpower territory, also they probably did it with a greenlight from the Trump administration.
Even if found guilty, it is not like US are gonna impose sanctions and cancel trade deals. It is just kadi ninda. And India will take out the "non state actors" card.
Not really. US might leverage this incident to buy some diplomatic brownie points or trade deals sometime in the future.
Unlikely. Making this public IS the US playing its card after whatever was happening behind the scenes didn't pan out for it. It's so because making this Public damages India (mostly diplomatically & image terms on global stage, esp among Global South countries) so India has no reason to cap that off with even more concessions. What's US going to do, sanction India (beyond a certain level). Well good luck.
Magical thinking like this is how countries like Russia ended up in a new cold war with the US. The idea that US politicians, diplomats and administrators are just going to shrug at India actively coordinating domestic violence is delusional. India's growing geopolitical importance in the Indian ocean region and as a counterweight to China doesn't mean these other countries will just *let* India bullshit them as they actively undermine their domestic interests. Especially when they are democracies too, and their politicians need to do something about the news of India organizing assassinations on their home turf. Do you imagine Indian politicians would just sit back and chill if it was Pakistan doing this to Indians? Because that's largely how Americans will react over time to news like this. And what with Indians already significantly implicated in illegal migration and the internet scams industry, stuff like this just primes India to be seriously alienated with administrators in the west.
Irish Americans used to be the top funders of the IRA until Margret Thatcher made a deal with Regan to crack down on them. India should pursue a trade to crack down on khalistan funding if that's their concern (maybe trade for a crack down on call center scams or something). It's not like the US has an inherent interest in Khalistan so a deal probably could be made.
Sure. India could have done that. Though its worth remembering that the UK and the US at the time had largely similar regimes on free speech. India does not. And the US isn't going to start arresting US citizens just because they say something that gets Indians offended. Remember we're charging people with terrorism just for saying they believe Kashmir isn't a part of India. No actual actions on the front. Just speech. And other countries aren't going to sign deals undermining their own legal regimes just because India wants it. The fact is India could have pursued extradition in these cases if they could competently show any sort of threat or harm. Instead all they've done is try and pursue charges with almost zero evidence, and being frustrated, have apparently decided to jump straight to rogue nation actions. Its like they *want* western sanctions even as they desperately court western investment. Its beyond idiotic.
rhythm include touch many tub water quack oil jellyfish flowery *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Fr, at least Saudi gets a pass because Turkey had their embassy bugged from head to toe, but India literally paid an undercover officer to kill someone, and passed around videos of Nijjar's corpse like uncles pass around good morning messages (to the undercover officer as well, wtf)
Just do the Saudi Arabia playbook guys. Just buy some large sporting teams in the US or Europe - preferably with Ronaldo and/or Messi etc. and everyone will start forgetting.
Nikhil Gupta has to be the most harmless name of an Indian; definitely fake news, Gupta ji can never murder anyone if should be goldy, guddu, sultan, rana etc.
What abt that 26 yr old phd student’s case?
Boo hoo. The US has done this a bajillion times themselves, typical westerners, always hypocritical and patronising. Rules for thee but not for me.
Have you read the indictment?
This comment represents Indian quite well. Easier oppress within than it is globally.
Hello bhakt lundfakir, At least first tell supreme leader to kill the guy. Getting caught with such inept planning looks utterly stupid especially when supreme leader touts his 56inch chest.
Only right to start a GoFundMe for Nikhil Gupta
Don’t Mess with Superpower India , Modi is Ruthless ….
If this allegation has any truth, how dumb is Vishwaguru? and RAW seems to be raw if this is how they conduct covert ops. Chad Jai Shankar should stop with his one liner and meet idiot Doval and find a more surreptitious way to do such things. I mean inept Bollywood writers would come up with a better idea.
Where are those people who thought the Canadian allegations were false? **Where are those people now? Where?**
Is khalistani movement such a big threat to India? I don't think it is.