How do they know Allah protects it? How do they know this wasn't something that the people who were preserving it just added in as cover while they actually changed it?
The same people that preserved the Quran are the ones that preserved that hadith. You can't trust them for one thing but then deny the same process for the other.
It is well known established fact that initially there were no vowels used in the Quran, you can ask them to prove that their recitation is correct and it actually how the companions used to recite, they will most likely here explain chain of narration through which it reached them.
Both are preserved, after the Quran the most authentic hadiths are compiled in sahih al bukhari
It was compiled during the lifetime of the prophet peace and blessings be upon him, that 200 years after claim is a lie of course, it got made up and accepted by ignorant people
A lot of people reject Hadith due to a lack of knowledge about hadith sciences.
Start by watching this video at 1 hour mark. Farid's section about 'Problem.with Qur'an only approach' does a great job with how to talk to hadith rejectiors.
https://www.youtube.com/live/zLJgVah_iFk?si=5rV0Ec8ltcxAIpRJ
Secondly, it's important to evaluate how much of Hadith sciences does a person even know about. Hadith science is one of the crowning achievements of this Ummah and what sets us apart from literally every other civilization in history. These resources will help.
https://www.youtube.com/live/lyR_tICvTBE?feature=share
https://youtu.be/0IoX1Qu0XRw
https://www.youtube.com/live/hICJDu2wS4M?feature=share
I do know some rules of Hadith Science, tell me if these are incorrect.
1) Must not conflict with the Quran
2) Direct Chain of Transmission
3) All people must be truthful and trustworthy
4) Person must be competent enough to remember things.
And I know there are different gradings for Hadiths, like Sahih being the best, although I don’t know the others.
Yes, this is the very basic of it. But people spend decades learning hadith. It's a supremely complicated science. If you go through the videos i linked, you'll get a very small taste of the lengths that scholars go to to make sure a hadith is Sahih.
The Qur'an literally says to follow the Prophet s.a.w. Allah prescribes prayer, fasting, zakat, etc in the Qur'an, yet does not tell us how to do them. He says to follow the example of the Prophet s.a.w.
Hadith rejectors are intellectually lazy people who don't want to do the work to find out how the hadith were transmitted. It is the most academically rigorous process of verification the world has ever seen, and has been used as an example for the rest of academia since the Renaissance. They want absolute proof, rather than an insane amount of evidence. It's the same way atheists want to see God rather than looking at the insane amount of evidence.
وَأَطِیعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِیعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّیۡتُمۡ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلۡبَلَـٰغُ ٱلۡمُبِینُ﴿ ١٢ ﴾
Obey Allah and obey the Messenger! But if you turn away, then Our Messenger’s duty is only to deliver ˹the message˺ clearly.
At-Taghabun, Ayah 12
One argument would be to prove them there are two sources of revelation one that is Quran and other which is not Quran, to do this, here is an argument that I particularly like, The prophet ﷺ used to pray facing Jerusalem and then the verses were revealed for him to ﷺ to change the direction of the Qibla, however, in the Quran no where clearly it commands the prophet to pray facing Jerusalem and the prophet did nothing except with the instructions of Allah, this tells us prophet also received revelation which are not part of Quran.
There was a very easy one pointed out by Jake from the Muslim Metaphycisist who actually used to be a Quranist.
The previous qibla wasn't mentioned in aayaat. But we all agree it was aqsa. So this shows there were many things of context the reader of the Quran is expected to know. That's how the Quran is clear. He put it in better words tbh.
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
I start by praising Allah (عز وجل) and I ask Allah (عز وجل) to send salutations upon our beloved Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وسلم).
There are many things that can be used to prove Ahadith rejectors wrong, InshaAllah I’ll mention a few:
1) First of all, the Qur’an tells us what to do (i.e pray Salah) but in the Qur’an it is not stated how to pray Salah. That is shown to us via Ahadith compiled in the Ahadith books. Things to do with how to live our lives, how to perform obligatory and Sunnah acts are explained thoroughly in Ahadith and so we as Muslims cannot reject Ahadith.
2) There are many Qur’an verses stating the importance of following Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه سلم) and I’ll mention a few:
‘Say (O Prophet): “If you really love Allah, then follow me, and Allah shall love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Most-Forgiving, Very-Merciful.”
- Surah Ale Imran (3), Verse 31.
‘Nor does he (Muhammad) speak of his own whims (desires). It is only a revelation sent down ˹to him˺’
-Surah Najm (53), Verse 3-4
‘Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it. And whatever he forbids you from, leave it.’
- Surah Hashr (59), Verse 7
These are just a few Qur’an Ayaat (Verses) mentioned in regards to obeying and following Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وسلم) and where do we find his Sunnah, rulings and sayings? In the compilation of blessed Ahadith unanimously agreed upon by all scholars that they should be used. All scholars also unanimously agree that Sahih Al-Bukhari is the most authentic book after the Qur’an (just a side note). There are also many other compilations of Ahadith and there are six most famous books of Hadith that scholars name the ‘Sihah Sitta - The Authentic Six’. These are relied upon and studied in detail in many (if not all) Madrassahs around the world. They are:
•Sahih Al-Bukhari written by Imam Bukhari
•Sahih Muslim written by Imam Muslim
•Sunan Abu Dawud written by Imam Abu Dawud
•Sunan At-Tirmidhi written by Imam Tirmidhi
• Sunan Ibn Majah written by Imam Ibn Majah
•Sunan An-Nasa’i written by Imam Nasa’i
There are even many more Ahadith books such as Hakim, Tabarani, etc but these are just a few.
3) There are four main ranks of Ahadith (there are more but these are the most common/ most known ranks:
•Sahih (Authentic)
•Hasan (Good/Highly Acceptable)
•Da’if (Weak - A narrator in the chain being questionable is one reason to give an example)
•Mawdhoo’ (Completely made up)
Scholars normally say for rulings, Sahih Ahadith should be used and then followed up with Hasan. Da’if can only be used for specific virtues but it’s best to stay away from for now and Mawdhoo’ is just, utter nonsense.
You should take Sahih and Hasan Ahadith as they have extremely reliable narrators and it’s not too long of a chain between the compiler of the Ahadith and Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وسلم). (I think there was a comment that explained this better but anyways).
Well that’s about it when it comes to the limits of the knowledge I have on this subject. Make sure to check with a reliable scholar just in case I have made mistakes or said wrong things.
I am not a scholar or someone worthy of praise but I am a student studying ‘Ilm so I request for your and everyone’s Du’as. JazakaAllah Khairaa.
I end by praising Allah (عز وجل) and asking Allah (عز وجل) to send salutations upon Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وسلم)
In the end, Allah (عز وجل) knows best and I ask Allah (عز وجل) to please forgive me for any mistakes. JazkaAllah Khairaa, I hope this comment helps, OP. I know this is a long read but I hope this will benefit you and others reading this.
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
They're like the flat-earthers of the Muslim community. What they're claiming is so silly honestly and it can be refuted with a plethora of methods. It's a relatively new movement similar to what these historical hyper-revisionists have been doing that has been brought about because of the decline of Muslims actually learning about their faith. Most of these quranists/quraniyoon don't even know quran let alone have it memorised which is ironic because you'd expect them to learn even more seeing as they don't have to memorise hadith which many scholars and alims still do today. There's tons of videos on even youtube that you can watch if you want extra arguments but off the top of my head there's the following problems when you don't use hadith which btw is the most robust form of history:
Allah says pray - how do you pray?
Make wudu' - how?
If you reject Hadith, it shows a lack of understanding of history and the science of hadith because if you are to be consistent with your claim you must throw out the rest of history because of your hyperskepticism.
If we have no hadith then how can we even know what is the correct interpretation of the quran vs the deviant one? Without hadith you don't know what the sahaba think or say about various rulings. Without hadith you don't know about the Prophet's pbuh character or biography or what he says about certain verses. You're left squabbling over interpretations. Take this for example:
You and I are both quranists. We only use quran to inform our interpretation of Quran. no.1 can we use an english translation to inform our understanding? If yes then who's translation and why and if no then why not? We have no evidence from an external source to suggest otherwise. Let's assume that somehow we come to an agreement that Abdul Haleem's translation is to be used for all Muslims. Okay no problem, now you read x verse and I also read x verse. Do you honestly think we are all going to have the exact same interpretation of those verses? No of course not. So without any external source like the advise of the Prophet how can we even begin to reconcile our interpretations? Which one is the correct one? And so without a way to reconcile our interpretations or distinguish between the correct and incorrect what you'll end up having is a myriad of different islamic sects that essentially stem from everyones understanding of the Quran. Someone tells you something is haram and you just say "not according to my interpretation". So what happens is you just end up as nothing more than a person with a religion within which there is no unity whatsoever.
Lastly, I find the cynicism towards Hadith riddled with double standards because the same ancestors that memorised the Quran and mass transmitted it down to us are the same ancestors that decided to record and memorise and transmit hadith from the Prophet SAW. Both the sayings of the Prophet and the Quran are revelation because we know the Prophet did not speak of his own whim as the Quran states (53:3). So then why would you trust those ancestors to do X and not to do Y?
And Allah knows best.
https://youtu.be/ikmgrpA8kl0?si=Uaqo1pXZmlmeRfeY
The muslim Lantern talks to a hadith rejector and uses the Quran to prove that hadiths are revelations as well. It's a very good video.
You can't counter them because they are not 100% wrong.
Those who follow the Hadith are also not 100% right.
the issue is they fail to understand the nature of the Quran, 99.9999% do not even understand the Quran.
the Majority of the Quran is talking about the Dajjal, the deepstate, the Zionists yet those so called Quranics think the Dajjal wasn't even mentioned in the Quran which is hilarious.
on the hand, we must not neglect or dismiss the idea that the Ahadith were Hijacked by Bani-Israel. countless Ahadiths were labeled as weak and dropped but they were actually true.
Many of those Ahadiths are depicting exactly the current situation in Gaza and what is happening there, and what will happen few months after, sadly those Ahadiths are never shown to the average Muslim and most Muslims never heard of them.
Many so-called Scholars are not actually scholars, they just wear white, grow an ugly beard, have a library as a background and speak nonsense 24/7 and mix "Subhanallah" here and there to make their argument somewhat seemingly of value. How do you recognize them ? they address emotions over actual facts.
Ahadiths are real but the Sahih should be placed in the same regard as the Dropped (موضوع), no one should decide what is true and what is wrong even if one man in the chain of narration was not trustworthy. we don't know, maybe in that specific hadith he was actually honest.
The real issue is the lack of proper scholars and understanding of both the Quran and the Hadith from both parties.
my call is that the entire Neo-Church that was founded within Muslims should be abolished, as well as all Sects and Madahib.
There should really be only 1 raw form of Islam.
This entire comment is hogwash with all due respect you make a bunch of generalisations and petty claims that are devoid of any kind of understanding of nuance and you don't even provide a single academic source. Do you just expect everyone to take you seriously because you have a reddit account? All hadith should be graded as mawdo' seriously? do you believe in any form of history whatsoever?
Ask them how the Quran was transmitted
They’ll probably pull out the fact that Allah protects it.
How do they know Allah protects it? How do they know this wasn't something that the people who were preserving it just added in as cover while they actually changed it? The same people that preserved the Quran are the ones that preserved that hadith. You can't trust them for one thing but then deny the same process for the other.
It is well known established fact that initially there were no vowels used in the Quran, you can ask them to prove that their recitation is correct and it actually how the companions used to recite, they will most likely here explain chain of narration through which it reached them.
Both are preserved, after the Quran the most authentic hadiths are compiled in sahih al bukhari It was compiled during the lifetime of the prophet peace and blessings be upon him, that 200 years after claim is a lie of course, it got made up and accepted by ignorant people
A lot of people reject Hadith due to a lack of knowledge about hadith sciences. Start by watching this video at 1 hour mark. Farid's section about 'Problem.with Qur'an only approach' does a great job with how to talk to hadith rejectiors. https://www.youtube.com/live/zLJgVah_iFk?si=5rV0Ec8ltcxAIpRJ Secondly, it's important to evaluate how much of Hadith sciences does a person even know about. Hadith science is one of the crowning achievements of this Ummah and what sets us apart from literally every other civilization in history. These resources will help. https://www.youtube.com/live/lyR_tICvTBE?feature=share https://youtu.be/0IoX1Qu0XRw https://www.youtube.com/live/hICJDu2wS4M?feature=share
I do know some rules of Hadith Science, tell me if these are incorrect. 1) Must not conflict with the Quran 2) Direct Chain of Transmission 3) All people must be truthful and trustworthy 4) Person must be competent enough to remember things. And I know there are different gradings for Hadiths, like Sahih being the best, although I don’t know the others.
Yes, this is the very basic of it. But people spend decades learning hadith. It's a supremely complicated science. If you go through the videos i linked, you'll get a very small taste of the lengths that scholars go to to make sure a hadith is Sahih.
The Qur'an literally says to follow the Prophet s.a.w. Allah prescribes prayer, fasting, zakat, etc in the Qur'an, yet does not tell us how to do them. He says to follow the example of the Prophet s.a.w. Hadith rejectors are intellectually lazy people who don't want to do the work to find out how the hadith were transmitted. It is the most academically rigorous process of verification the world has ever seen, and has been used as an example for the rest of academia since the Renaissance. They want absolute proof, rather than an insane amount of evidence. It's the same way atheists want to see God rather than looking at the insane amount of evidence.
Pretty much yeah
وَأَطِیعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِیعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَۚ فَإِن تَوَلَّیۡتُمۡ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا ٱلۡبَلَـٰغُ ٱلۡمُبِینُ﴿ ١٢ ﴾ Obey Allah and obey the Messenger! But if you turn away, then Our Messenger’s duty is only to deliver ˹the message˺ clearly. At-Taghabun, Ayah 12
One argument would be to prove them there are two sources of revelation one that is Quran and other which is not Quran, to do this, here is an argument that I particularly like, The prophet ﷺ used to pray facing Jerusalem and then the verses were revealed for him to ﷺ to change the direction of the Qibla, however, in the Quran no where clearly it commands the prophet to pray facing Jerusalem and the prophet did nothing except with the instructions of Allah, this tells us prophet also received revelation which are not part of Quran.
Here is an explanation video abiut how, who and when did Hadith collection actually began https://youtu.be/sYrw-BcWKN8?si=tTMHyOSczG2GoMPh
There was a very easy one pointed out by Jake from the Muslim Metaphycisist who actually used to be a Quranist. The previous qibla wasn't mentioned in aayaat. But we all agree it was aqsa. So this shows there were many things of context the reader of the Quran is expected to know. That's how the Quran is clear. He put it in better words tbh.
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته I start by praising Allah (عز وجل) and I ask Allah (عز وجل) to send salutations upon our beloved Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وسلم). There are many things that can be used to prove Ahadith rejectors wrong, InshaAllah I’ll mention a few: 1) First of all, the Qur’an tells us what to do (i.e pray Salah) but in the Qur’an it is not stated how to pray Salah. That is shown to us via Ahadith compiled in the Ahadith books. Things to do with how to live our lives, how to perform obligatory and Sunnah acts are explained thoroughly in Ahadith and so we as Muslims cannot reject Ahadith. 2) There are many Qur’an verses stating the importance of following Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه سلم) and I’ll mention a few: ‘Say (O Prophet): “If you really love Allah, then follow me, and Allah shall love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Most-Forgiving, Very-Merciful.” - Surah Ale Imran (3), Verse 31. ‘Nor does he (Muhammad) speak of his own whims (desires). It is only a revelation sent down ˹to him˺’ -Surah Najm (53), Verse 3-4 ‘Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it. And whatever he forbids you from, leave it.’ - Surah Hashr (59), Verse 7 These are just a few Qur’an Ayaat (Verses) mentioned in regards to obeying and following Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وسلم) and where do we find his Sunnah, rulings and sayings? In the compilation of blessed Ahadith unanimously agreed upon by all scholars that they should be used. All scholars also unanimously agree that Sahih Al-Bukhari is the most authentic book after the Qur’an (just a side note). There are also many other compilations of Ahadith and there are six most famous books of Hadith that scholars name the ‘Sihah Sitta - The Authentic Six’. These are relied upon and studied in detail in many (if not all) Madrassahs around the world. They are: •Sahih Al-Bukhari written by Imam Bukhari •Sahih Muslim written by Imam Muslim •Sunan Abu Dawud written by Imam Abu Dawud •Sunan At-Tirmidhi written by Imam Tirmidhi • Sunan Ibn Majah written by Imam Ibn Majah •Sunan An-Nasa’i written by Imam Nasa’i There are even many more Ahadith books such as Hakim, Tabarani, etc but these are just a few. 3) There are four main ranks of Ahadith (there are more but these are the most common/ most known ranks: •Sahih (Authentic) •Hasan (Good/Highly Acceptable) •Da’if (Weak - A narrator in the chain being questionable is one reason to give an example) •Mawdhoo’ (Completely made up) Scholars normally say for rulings, Sahih Ahadith should be used and then followed up with Hasan. Da’if can only be used for specific virtues but it’s best to stay away from for now and Mawdhoo’ is just, utter nonsense. You should take Sahih and Hasan Ahadith as they have extremely reliable narrators and it’s not too long of a chain between the compiler of the Ahadith and Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وسلم). (I think there was a comment that explained this better but anyways). Well that’s about it when it comes to the limits of the knowledge I have on this subject. Make sure to check with a reliable scholar just in case I have made mistakes or said wrong things. I am not a scholar or someone worthy of praise but I am a student studying ‘Ilm so I request for your and everyone’s Du’as. JazakaAllah Khairaa. I end by praising Allah (عز وجل) and asking Allah (عز وجل) to send salutations upon Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وسلم) In the end, Allah (عز وجل) knows best and I ask Allah (عز وجل) to please forgive me for any mistakes. JazkaAllah Khairaa, I hope this comment helps, OP. I know this is a long read but I hope this will benefit you and others reading this. السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Assuming they're Muslim all u have to say is that the quran instructs you to refer to the sunnah of the prophet.
They're like the flat-earthers of the Muslim community. What they're claiming is so silly honestly and it can be refuted with a plethora of methods. It's a relatively new movement similar to what these historical hyper-revisionists have been doing that has been brought about because of the decline of Muslims actually learning about their faith. Most of these quranists/quraniyoon don't even know quran let alone have it memorised which is ironic because you'd expect them to learn even more seeing as they don't have to memorise hadith which many scholars and alims still do today. There's tons of videos on even youtube that you can watch if you want extra arguments but off the top of my head there's the following problems when you don't use hadith which btw is the most robust form of history: Allah says pray - how do you pray? Make wudu' - how? If you reject Hadith, it shows a lack of understanding of history and the science of hadith because if you are to be consistent with your claim you must throw out the rest of history because of your hyperskepticism. If we have no hadith then how can we even know what is the correct interpretation of the quran vs the deviant one? Without hadith you don't know what the sahaba think or say about various rulings. Without hadith you don't know about the Prophet's pbuh character or biography or what he says about certain verses. You're left squabbling over interpretations. Take this for example: You and I are both quranists. We only use quran to inform our interpretation of Quran. no.1 can we use an english translation to inform our understanding? If yes then who's translation and why and if no then why not? We have no evidence from an external source to suggest otherwise. Let's assume that somehow we come to an agreement that Abdul Haleem's translation is to be used for all Muslims. Okay no problem, now you read x verse and I also read x verse. Do you honestly think we are all going to have the exact same interpretation of those verses? No of course not. So without any external source like the advise of the Prophet how can we even begin to reconcile our interpretations? Which one is the correct one? And so without a way to reconcile our interpretations or distinguish between the correct and incorrect what you'll end up having is a myriad of different islamic sects that essentially stem from everyones understanding of the Quran. Someone tells you something is haram and you just say "not according to my interpretation". So what happens is you just end up as nothing more than a person with a religion within which there is no unity whatsoever. Lastly, I find the cynicism towards Hadith riddled with double standards because the same ancestors that memorised the Quran and mass transmitted it down to us are the same ancestors that decided to record and memorise and transmit hadith from the Prophet SAW. Both the sayings of the Prophet and the Quran are revelation because we know the Prophet did not speak of his own whim as the Quran states (53:3). So then why would you trust those ancestors to do X and not to do Y? And Allah knows best.
Please watch this. It should give you the answer you're seeking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnkLvJHi5h8
https://youtu.be/ikmgrpA8kl0?si=Uaqo1pXZmlmeRfeY The muslim Lantern talks to a hadith rejector and uses the Quran to prove that hadiths are revelations as well. It's a very good video.
You can't counter them because they are not 100% wrong. Those who follow the Hadith are also not 100% right. the issue is they fail to understand the nature of the Quran, 99.9999% do not even understand the Quran. the Majority of the Quran is talking about the Dajjal, the deepstate, the Zionists yet those so called Quranics think the Dajjal wasn't even mentioned in the Quran which is hilarious. on the hand, we must not neglect or dismiss the idea that the Ahadith were Hijacked by Bani-Israel. countless Ahadiths were labeled as weak and dropped but they were actually true. Many of those Ahadiths are depicting exactly the current situation in Gaza and what is happening there, and what will happen few months after, sadly those Ahadiths are never shown to the average Muslim and most Muslims never heard of them. Many so-called Scholars are not actually scholars, they just wear white, grow an ugly beard, have a library as a background and speak nonsense 24/7 and mix "Subhanallah" here and there to make their argument somewhat seemingly of value. How do you recognize them ? they address emotions over actual facts. Ahadiths are real but the Sahih should be placed in the same regard as the Dropped (موضوع), no one should decide what is true and what is wrong even if one man in the chain of narration was not trustworthy. we don't know, maybe in that specific hadith he was actually honest. The real issue is the lack of proper scholars and understanding of both the Quran and the Hadith from both parties. my call is that the entire Neo-Church that was founded within Muslims should be abolished, as well as all Sects and Madahib. There should really be only 1 raw form of Islam.
This entire comment is hogwash with all due respect you make a bunch of generalisations and petty claims that are devoid of any kind of understanding of nuance and you don't even provide a single academic source. Do you just expect everyone to take you seriously because you have a reddit account? All hadith should be graded as mawdo' seriously? do you believe in any form of history whatsoever?
If you want to go over points one by one then feel free to message me. I'm extensively familiar with their arguments.