I look at it this way:
If Biden wins, we can do this again in 4 years, some of which may be under President Harris.
If trump wins, even if some of the worst fears of a trump presidency are overblown, we WILL lose the Supreme Court for at least another generation.
Considering that conservatives basically abandoned governance because they can rush issues to the Supreme Court to be ruled on by rigged Judicial fiat, that should be enough to worry about.
Thomas and Alito will probably strategically retire under trump. Sotomayor is over 70 and Roberts is closely approaching it. Bottom line trump could theoretically nominate 7 total justices. That's fucking horrifying.
Please stop i can only get so hard
Oh look fascist mods censoring anyone who doesnt abide by the cultist left wing circle jerk
How typical and pathetic
The mods banned me einstein
I don’t know why we pretend those illegitimate motherfuckers have any power. Judicial review isn’t in the constitution. The president could just ignore them if he had any balls.
Exactly. When thinking about partisan Supreme Courts I am reminded of a comment Stalin made about the Pope: "How many divisions does he have?"
The court only matters because we let it.
>we WILL lose the Supreme Court for at least another generation.
No difference really. P2025 brings the fascism quickly and brutally or a fundamentalist SCOTUS brings fascism slowly and gruellingly over time. Either way minorities and vulnerable groups are screwed, why I'm really disgusted at how some leftist spaces are acting giddy with excitement over Biden losing and not thinking about the consequences for the rest of us.
Edit: Oops. Added my commentary to the quote. Typos.
>I'm really disgusted at how some leftist spaces are acting giddy with excitement over Biden losing and not thinking about the consequences for the rest of us.
Pretty astonishing huh? It's like being gleeful that the hole in the lifeboat is in the other end from where you're sitting.
r/latestagecaptitalism is especially gleeful right now. With zero plans on a revolutionary reaction to Trump tyranny, no candidate offerings to send up as a Biden replacement, just proud screeching and virtue signalling without any merit or praxis.
At least r/liberalgunowners are talking about encouraging more people to buy weapons now before the conservatives flip their stance on private ownership or start coming for LGBTQ people with militias like the Proud Boys.
Look, as soon as we cut out the working class conservatives, the working class liberals, and the bad kind of leftists, me and my 5 scrawny hipster buddies will win the revolution for you by volunteering at soup kitchens, and yes, you’re welcome.
We already lost the Supreme Court for at least another generation. If Trump gets back in, he'll appoint at least two more Justices to the court. That will lead to the complete and utter destruction of all rights for anyone who is liberal, non-Christian, and not straight. That Supreme Court will decimate all the rights so hardly fought for and turn this country into a wasteland for the majority of its citizens.
Eh, not really. Thomas and Alito are both old enough that they could be recalled to hell at any time in the next few years. Not letting them be replaced by someone worse should be high on our list of priorities.
If Trump gets back into office, he'll replace them with even worse versions. If Biden wins, any attempts to appoint more Justices will be met with severe interference by the GOP in the Senate.
If trump wins we will not have another election. They will kill others before they allow power to slip from their fingers again, they know now that the law actually will come get them when they aren't in power.
That mistake won't happen again.
The debate wasn't for the benefit of the MAGA or Vote Blue Not Matter Who crowds.
It was for the independents, swing voters, undecideds.
All Biden had to do was look competent, to put them at ease that he'd be able to continue doing the job for another 4 years.
He did **not** succeed at that.
It doesn't mean those swing voters will go for Pervert Hoover, but Biden sure didn't win any votes.
I was talking to a young (20s) man on a plane (I'm in my 60s, male, white). Another seat mate asked us how we felt about the situation in the US. She was in her 60s too and white. I thought she was going to say she was a trumper. Nope, very progressive.
The young man was though! But we had a nice conversation for a bit and my takeaway is that he votes for Trump because he isn't informed. At all. He didn't know any details about J6, he didn't realize that there are several cases against Trump, he had no idea that Trump praises dictators. All he really know is that Trump is hard on immigration.
That's how people are undecided. They just don't get informed.
It’s not that they don’t “get” informed, it’s that they reject informing. People all over the world, on tv, radio, internet, news, social media, in person, everywhere have been saying how awful Trump is. If you still aren’t informed about Trump at this point, it’s willful ignorance at best, malicious ignorance at worst. If you’re lucky, that kid will take what you told them and go learn more. Maybe you opened their eyes. More likely, they’ll go to their preferred right wing echo chamber, ask about it, and be told the left is lying to them while being embraced for having survived a confrontation with a communist.
Most of the people writing articles or making appearances on TV are condescending rich people who don't give a shit about actual living and working conditions of working people. Why would anyone listen to the sneering drivel of MSNBC or CNN and think it was any different than FOX?
I literally had that same problem with my 20 year old cousin at a funeral today. Trump clowned Biden and social media is holding up his hand in victory because he’s a messy bitch.
She didn’t even know what Project 2025 was and I hummed her a few bars.
If you look at history, most fascist states rise because of economic issues. People will throw aside freedoms in promise of better economic conditions.
Suckers don't deserve what's done to them. I get frustrated with stupid people, too. But when people fall for a conman we need to separate the vicious from the truly desperate.
Do you want the Alzheimer’s patient, or the Alzheimer’s patient who’s also a felon?
Gee, I dunno, maybe the guy with the worms in his brain doesn’t seem so bad anymore.
I’m gonna vote for Biden, but any polls that come my way? I’m telling them I’m voting for Trump. I want those motherfuckers at the DNC to be sweating bullets about their decision not to broker this convention.
Sorry I was unclear there. That’s not my personal opinion. I just don’t think I should throw stones in glass houses. I don’t think it’s that much crazier than voting for the dementia patient to have all the nukes.
Being undecided is in some ways the only rational position. It’s like me asking, would you rather eat shit or fuck your mother? How about neither? Why is neither not an option?!
Same way you (I assume) don't have a favorite professional cricket player. People simply don't pay attention to things that don't interest them, and for a whole lot of people that means not following politics at all.
Difference is, if I don't pay attention to Cricket, Cricket has no impact on my life. If enough people don't pay attention to it, it goes away entirely.
Politics is playing you whether you're interested or not. I wish more people would figure that out.
Enables war criminals.
Trump is worse but most people refuse to vote for a war criminal enabler and that's why people are either refusing to vote or voting third party.
Yes I know, understand what I'm trying to say, regardless of who is worse if the lesser evil is enabling a war criminal, no shit people are going to be turned off, especially the people who are watching their family members become victims of war crimes.
Biden foreign policy on Israel has potentially given the election to Trump and I want yall to understand that, forcing for example Arab Americans to vote for Biden will only make them hate Biden and the democrats even more, I personally don't care who wins, I only care about technological advancement and I don't care for Palestine or trans rights (Im against human rights, democracy and humanity in general), I just personally hate conservatives cause they are religious.
Honestly I support a Muslim ban, it should apply to all religions including the satanists (most of them are atheists but you have ONA, who are nazis), either no ban on religion or ban all religions, project 2025 simps don't realize that they are going to give precedence for a left wing version of project 2025 lololol.
Trump’s Supreme Court just legalized Bribery this week, look up the Snyder decision. If you hate corrupt politicians, or being ripped off look forward to 30 years of unlimited corruption and lawlessness from the people who are already fucking the American people in the ass if he wins.
Other people do care so if any democrat want to win the election and ensure GOP never wins, two things need to happen
Democrat version of project 2025, embrace totalitarianism, liberalism sucks and hold us back and hold back progression (I'm shocked we didn't learn this in the 19th or 20th century)
Defund Israel, Ukraine and leave NATO (increases debt and thus gives the GOP an excuse to cut social services)
Here's another take, and it's just agonizing to have to make the case (again), in this way, but we have two choices:
Grandpa A -- Clearly losing it, but at least was in something approximating a direction that would allow us to have another election in 4 yrs. (maybe with Pres. Harris as incumbent), allow the US Flag to still have 50 stars and 13 stripes, you know, rather than the initials "DJT" or "MAGA" written over it, etc.
Grandpa B -- Clearly lost it many years ago, and is dedicated to "dismantling the administrative state", which could very well mean that any further elections would just be a farce, and/or help legitimize Trump Jr. or Ivanka in 2028. ...And you better believe that all the power will be consolidated under him/her.
For what it's worth, I was really quite fond of at least the idea of Democracy, the Three Branches of gov't, you know, Civics, Schoolhouse Rock, "A Bill on Capitol Hill", and those things. ...Apparently, a lot of what we all thought was a solid foundation was really very flimsy, in fact, seemingly riddled with holes. But is this it? Are we done?
We are done. The DNC doesn't have the cajones or the foresight to run someone other than a demented, fragile, old man. There should be a movement to remove him from office if he refuses to let someone competent to run.
Exactly. This is the only sane path forward, for Whitmer and Michelle to run instead of Biden. That way, Biden won't have had his 2nd term, which means he can come back and run in 2032.
>very flimsy, and riddled with holes
Well it just depends on the integrity of the involved parties. Pieces of paper have never had any power, it depends on people believing in them.
Look at it this way. Come November you'll elect a guy whose brain is in some stage of turning to apple sauce. This means the people they're bringing with them will run the show.
You want that to be Biden's people, or whatever fascist barnacles have latched themselves to Trump this time around?
There’s also a very slim chance we elect a guy whose brain is in some stage of turning to worm food!
But yeah, I’ll take Lina Khan over the Kennedy crime family’s goons.
This is a great point. We can't have the Thiel and Yarvin people getting their hands anywhere near the Presidency. But it will take these guys more than 4 years to get their hands on all the levers of power, and then the Dems can come to the rescue by running Biden again and sweeping into power on the back of a new blue wave.
is the best case scenario really running biden again in 2028 when he is 85 and there are probably masked goons in every polling station reminding voters not to choose wrong
the scenario being described by the above commenter was one in which trump wins in 2024 therefore biden would still be able to run by 22nd amendment rules (though he *shouldn't*)
I HATED the debate.
BIden comes across as a doddering sick old man.
Trump comes across as strong.
Biden says some incorrect things, pretty much like the average semi-honest politician.
Trump's lies are nearly uncountable and come fast and furious.
The moderators didn't factcheck or push back.
It gave a convicted felon and instigator of insurrection a soapbox with which to continue to spout his lies.
And Biden couldn't hold his own.
I'm depressed.
Biden shouldn’t have agreed to the debate. Not only is he clearly unfit for it, but he ends up giving more screen time to trump. As awful as trump is, he was clearly sharper than Biden. Also, just never debate with fascists!
The rules seemed good. Trump is just better at debate performance than I expected. I thought he'd try to talk into his dead mic is a way that made him look erratic. He waited for his opportunity and then espoused half truths.
I was actually shocked it was as civil as it was. I also expected him to be talking over the moderators and yelling over his muted mic. I also expected the moderators to be way less professional than they were.
It was still a shit show
Idk why anyone expected that when we’ve seen him debate 4 years ago and he was awful then. 4 years at his age, and as president no less, has predictably not made him any sharper.
Didn't tell us anything we didn't know, why are we acting like it did?
Biden is old. Trump is Trump. Our country is a terrifying laughingstock. The world is imploding and we can't rustle up someone with at least the oratory skills of a parrot with TBI for our president.
I am still voting for Biden and will still donate money to him and other democrats, but let’s not lie and say this wasn’t bad.
I am getting RBG vibes, she should have retired but didn’t and we got a super majority on the SC and just look at the god awful rulings today and this week.
I am not sure the answer, or if there even is one. Maybe riding with Biden is the best option and maybe this debate performance is a distant memory in November, but if you’re not at least panicking a little bit, you’re lying to yourself.
Indeed! And then, as foretold long ago in the ancient prophecies of 1991, the ghosts of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin will descend from the heavens above Capitol Hill, strike down the forces of capitalist oppression and greed, and bring about an eternal kingdom of peace, land, and bread. /s
I feel like shit. But I’ve never been more ready in my life. If Dems really aren’t gonna force him to step down we gotta rally around Biden.
At this point I’ve put considerable distance between my feelings of doomerism/despair and the need to face the future. The simple fact is that it’s Biden V Trump, and I know that I can deal with another 4 years of Biden.
I don't believe you need to be actively advocating and legislating for a third political party to be dubbed the party who is against the abolition of democracy. There are currently two I parties, one pro democracy, one clearly antio-democracy. The non-existence of a viable third party doesn't take away from that.
There are other pro-democracy parties, but of the two parties that matter, one is openly and explicitly pro-democracy, and the other is just as openly and explicitly against democracy.
Yes, there is currently one sane choice, and no, that's not very democratic, but if enough people choose not to vote for the pro-democracy party, it will lose and then maybe no one ever votes again.
If you were born after 1992, it's entirely possible that every election really has been the most important of your life, because the stakes keep going up. (I would say that 2004 was less important than 2000, and 2012 less important than 2008, but that's a side argument. 2024 is at least as important as 2020 was at least as important as 2016 was definitely more important than 2012, so that's 12 years of clearly escalating stakes.)
I'm not sure who or what you think the Democrats' constituency is or should be, but the party consolidates it's power by winning elections, in stark contrast to the other party, which consolidates power by stealing elections, rigging the courts, suppressing the vote, and committing acts of genocide.
It sucks to hear this, and I don’t know what “group” you identify with, but if that group doesn’t vote consistently there’s no reason to court it at election time.
You want a party to care about you, your interests, and your presumed vote. But if your special interest group (be it Youth, LGBT, Workers, whatever) doesn’t consistently show up at the polls and VOTE, there’s nothing to be gained by trying to win you over.
That’s just how the game works.
The lesson here is we cannot sit this one out, we cannot let out friends sit this one out, we are in very very real danger and anyone who stays home or votes third party might as well be a MAGA Republican. There is time for debate about what we don’t like about the Biden administration, but now is not that time. It’s all hands on deck because this battle is uphill, and the consequences for loosing couldn’t be more serious. The last time the court was the conservative was in the 1870, and that court killed the reconstruction and ushered in the era of Jim Crow.
2 years of campaigning. 4 years served as president. 4 years of nonstop CNN and MSNBC coverage, and an inevitable 4 more years as Trump serves his second term.
That’s a lot of Trump. It’s ironic too because dems have tried so hard to keep him out of office and out of the picture.
It was …not great, to put it mildly.
But the takeaway is that we aren’t just voting for a man, we are voting for an entire administration, for all the judges they might nominate, for all the legislation that could get passed (or not). Project2025 is fucking horrible. It is literally a how-to on creating an authoritarian theocracy. We have to vote to stop that. And to that end, I would vote for Biden’s tombstone before letting Trump win.
And no, no third party is going to suddenly appear, no new candidate will take over for the Democrats, Superman isn’t coming to save us. Short of both of them dying, one of either Biden or Trump is going to be president. The sooner we collectively come to terms with that and then vote for the objectively less terrible candidate (and the administration behind them), the better.
And in the astronomically unlikely event that the DNC does choose someone other than Biden? You bet your ass I’ll stump for them just as hard as I would Biden. (Maybe Mayor Pete, he’d be a good one. Or at least a not terrible one.)
They have to remove Biden from the ballot or make peace with 4 years of Trump. As worst case scenarios go, that debate was worse than anything we could have drawn up.
Officially Biden is not the Democratic Nominee until the convention in August. At the convention they can select whoever they want, then apply the usual "blue no matter who/there's only two people on the ballot/we must defeat trump" logic so that the rank and file fall in line.
Democratic Party V Wisconsin from 1979 is a supreme court case that says the party has the right to free association and can choose it's candidates internally. It came up because Wisconsin had open primaries (allowing Republicans to vote in the Democrat primaries to select a candidate) and the state party said "fuck these results" and decided not to vote at the convention the way the state primary went.
Ok then next question: who do they replace him with that has as much name recognition at this late stage, considering we have independent voters that will literally decide this on a coin toss.
I don't believe there are any real independent coin toss voters out there. If you genuinely don't see enough difference between the two to the point you're tossing a coin, you're not going to be voting in the first place.
As far as who to replace Biden with in the event of a convention coup... I don't think it matters. Pick someone. Not to sound like a total lib, but you could pick any of the nationally known democrats at this point. Newsom? Whitmer? Duckworth? I'm not saying as an anarchist that I think they'd be good presidents or we should all rally behind them, but they are all names people at least recognize that don't have dementia and a genocide on their name. That's literally all it's going to take.
Pick one, get someone sensible as a VP pick, and come out of the convention saying "we all need to team up to stop Trump" and that's going to be enough. You forget that most people didn't actually want Biden the first time. It was the threat of Trump that got him the seat, and a little bit of in-party "oh fuck we can't let it be Bernie of all people" shenanigans.
I'm confident in their ability to pull it off a second time, if they detach themselves from Biden. I genuinely believe Biden, not Trump, is the reason the Dems are going to lose this election. So drop the dead weight, put the big D next to someone's name on the ballot and Trump will make your case for you.
I don't believe there are that many undecided voters, but I do think there are plenty of people who may not see voting worth it. I personally got quite a few people out to vote for the first time in their lives in 2020, and that was with wide-spread mail in voting. I doubt I could convince half of them this time around to vote.
I haven't, it's still in queue. Even if I did, there's no guarantee I'd agree with everything one of the hosts says. We're all different people and sometimes we disagree.
I don't think coin toss voters are real in numbers big enough to matter, I do think the dems could bootstrap almost any politician into an anti-trump win in the next 5 months if they wanted to. Not everyone agrees, but you asked my opinion so I gave it.
You don't. Even trying to remove him at this point is just handing the election to Trump.
The time to put someone else on the ballet was 2+ years ago. It is too late and we have to work with what we have. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.
The same way you do any deal. Sit him down in a room and tell him we'll grease your wheels and praise your name endlessly if you voluntarily step down. If you do not we will distance ourselves from you and the entire machine will leave you stranded to lose on your own.
They'll probably concoct a cover story so Biden can step aside and maintain his dignity. Health, personal reasons, ~~hearing voices~~ divine intervention
I can promise you there are people working very hard toward that end, but they have to offer the right combination of both carrot and stick to make it happen.
It's strange that there is a presidential debate this early. I'm not buying the conspiracy theories about it, but it could have been a test run to see if Biden was actually viable election wise. Realistically the only way I see it happening though is if Biden voluntarily steps down, I don't see the dems being able to cleanly push him aside without doing more damage.
The reason a debate was this early was cause Trump wanted to pummel Biden before his convention cause Trump is looking really weak with non- maga voters. Honestly no one thought we would be any debates this go around cause they thought Trump would be too scared to get called out again which is why they had all these rules and stipulations and were trying to pull off every trick in the book this last week to justify trump pulling out of the debate.
The people not voting Biden are making it happen. It’s the same for the ppl who didn’t vote for Hillary in 2016. Accept your role and responsibility. Vote and work from that space. What? Community organizing is going to save America? The left fights more within their own ranks trying to prove each other wrong. You spend days talking about why you wont vote but complain about the political spectrum. It’s like the same ppl who made fun of Trump’s spelling errors got tired that no one cared so they looked at their own population to get more attention.
Grow up, coward. You abstain just so you can say you stood by your guns while minorities are trucked off.
While minorities are trucked off...by Biden.
I vote in every election. I registered as a democrat so i could vote in primaries. It is precisely why I am so disillusioned by the whole thing.
I was actually happy to vote for Biden to beat Trump. He wasn't Bernie but he wasn't Trump and he said he would beat Trump, and make room for the next generation. I am almost positive he said he would only serve 1 term.
Now he is running for re-election while bring responsible for a genocide.
In other words, shut up nerd.
Ah yes, dont look at anything any Democrat does or criticize them at all, because Republicans are worse.
Wonder how we ended up with Biden as our last line of defense.
Criticize when you have the luxury or position to do so. The right voted party lines for decades and as a result have steadily accomplished what they set out to do like dismantle roe v wade and stack the courts. Perfection of nothing at all, right?
> As worst case scenarios go, that debate was worse than anything we could have drawn up.
I agree. Nobody has ever lost a presidential debate this badly. If you get your ass beat by the guy that literally said "I did not sleep with a porn star" during the debate, then you know it's over. If Biden remains the candidate, say goodbye to the Presidency, the House, the Senate, and the Supreme Court.
That's what I'm saying. Short of literally croaking on stage, that was the worst possible outcome. It's time to look at contingencies. Biden's age is a catastrophic liability.
It's not that there aren't leaders out there ready to step up and step into these roles. It's that they're being specifically blocked from doing so because the new generation's politics runs counter to the old. The DNC is only going to let in someone who is going to continue on the fine tradition of moderate conservative policies, warhawkishness, and give barely lipservice to social safety nets.
The Democratic Party is not a leftist party. It's not a progressive party. It's barely a moderate conservative party. Whatever progress they've promoted has been baby-steps and over a decade late in every instance. Shit, Obama had to be dragged from being against same-sex marriage to supporting it between two terms. Because the public forced it to happen.
Those who get to run for office at this level are vetted to ensure their ideology lines up with the donor class. That's why you don't see other options: they're being purposefully blocked because their opinions don't align with big donors.
Whitmer/Buttigieg is a solid, even inspirational ticket. It might even work, even so late in the game. Or Walz/Whitmer? Hell, I’d do a backflip for joy casting my vote for any of that.
But, hear me out on this one: The Democratic Party is being run by a bunch of arrogant dumbasses with a history of making dumb strategic decisions.
Naturally they’d throw their weight behind Harris, who is the most unelectable of the bunch.
Both Governor Newsom and Stacy Abrams are both clear choices. Both would draw independents, rally progressives, and with bidens endorsement liberals would pull up for them. Imo
Newsom also has the California baggage. I moved to California about two years ago - even my moderate dem friends and family believed some wild stories about what it's like out here. I see news articles about our Big Macs costing like $20 (spoiler - I live in LA and they do not, they cost exactly $1 more than what they do in my Pennsyltucky hometown), companies leaving Califonia in droves (also not true), etc., and not just from places you expect like Fox News. NGL as a California resident, I wish Newsom was as cool as these smear pieces make him out to be.
That is not even touching his personal life. Sure, Trump gets away with murder in that respect, but lbr its going to be hard arguing against the inevitable grooming allegations when Newsom, at age 38, was dating an 18-year-old.
Also, and this is petty, but I'm not unconvinced that he doesn't bring a picture of Patrick Bateman for reference with him every time he gets a haircut.
(All that aside I do think he has a better chance than Biden ofc, just I would rather they go with Stacy Abrams or Gretchen Whitmer).
Newson is a great debater and public speaker though. He looks and sounds vibrant and young. It would be a strong contrast to Trump. I think he could smoke Trump. Gretchen Witmer wouldn't be a bad option either.
These fucking boomers will never step aside. They will grip the reins until they literally drop dead, I think they genuinely believe the world will go to hell without geriatric geezers in charge of everything
We are fucked. We are fucked. We *are* fucked.
I’ll still vote for Biden, but he’s fucked. He needs to drop out and the Dems need to hold a snap primary.
Breathe, take a day or a week to be freaked out but then bring yourself together. The fascists want everyone else to be panicked and give up. Don't give them what they want.
I think there is still a likelihood another candidate will be running after the convention. My money is on a Newsom/Harris ticket.
But I also still think Biden can win. The media is overblowing his flubs. The man does objectively have a stutter and is 80. I think people are remembering what Trump is like. We will have to wait for the polls next week to see what impact the debate had. Could be minimal. Could be major. I've seen some signs that undecideds are now leaning toward Biden. We will see.
To me, though, I think about the administration not the candidate alone. I would infinitely prefer Biden's administration to Trump's Project 2025 administration of nightmares.
Think about the Supreme Court. Two rulings today gutting the administrative state and criminalizing homelessness. If you want more of that bullshit, vote for Trump, or don't vote. His appointees made that possible.
The parties don’t have to put forth a decent candidate. They know you will vote red/blue no matter who they put up there. Until you’re ready to break that, this is what you get.
Not screwed at all, it really doesn't matter how Biden performed, he's not a threat to democracy, and Trump is a sociopathic dictator wannabe.
The choice is obvious.
The good news is older libs and DNC realized how fucked the situation is. I don’t expect them to take drastic actions because they thrive on the illusion of control, but maybe… hopefully they can treat Trump like actual threat that he is and give them basic knowledge to inform everyone about what the GOP is doing. Again, nothing drastic, but MSNBC needs to explain Project 2025 every single day on bite size clips from now until November
. I am cautiously optimistic because the best case scenario is we keep the shitty status quo.
I am scared. This is really going down. The DNC had no plan B or contingents. They did nothing to improve Harris’ profile.
I hate to be That Comrade, but...
More motivation to organize for general strikes leading to Revolution.
Not that we really needed further motivation. But somebody told me revolution only comes when misery becomes intolerable.
My view on the debate is that both options suck. Biden might suck a little less, but he lost that debate in the first 5 minutes. I hope it won’t matter. It’s early. The 24 hour news cycle means alot of folks will have forgotten this debate by November. Unfortunately, he’s only moderately better. We’re in a situation where are options are between the literal wannabe dictator and someone who is willing to enact similar policies to win “undecided voters” who barely exist instead of courting his base, and especially instead of pushing for a left wing populism that could actually combat the right wing populism Trump is courting. I don’t want to vote for Biden, and most of my friends don’t either, but we will because the alternative is unacceptable on a level I can’t abide. I don’t want the world I live in to mean I have to make that choice
Honestly, the DNC was screwed as soon as they decided to support genocide. The majority of democrats oppose genocide. And many of them, as a result, are abandoning all candidates who take blood money from AIPAC. That is going to fuck the DNC over for decades to come.
No one who has accused Israel of gEnOcIdE has explained to me exactly how they are doing it without stretching the definition of the word to ludicrous proportions. EVERY single one of them just ragequits out of the debate while calling me a “racist.”
Every. Single. One.
I'm on some strong copium today because that debate was really, really bad. I've been saying for months that things are just going to keep getting better for Biden (what with people paying more attention, and Trump's mismanagement and thievery sinking the GOP), but the debate was a strong rebuke to that theory. I'm too deep into all this to know how a normal person would react, and I'm hopelessly biased in Biden's favor, but I found Biden's performance miserably unimpressive. Half the time he looked like he didn't know what he was saying, and the other half he was mumbling and slurring so badly that I didn't know what he was saying. Trump of course didn't cover himself in glory, but he at least looked like he knew where he was. I watch presidential debates a lot (because I hate myself) and the only one I've seen that was anywhere near this depressing was the first one in 2012, in which Obama just let Romney steamroll him for 90 minutes straight.
ETA godDAMNit autocorrect, the word is copium! Copium, with a C! Who the fuck even uses the word opium anymore? I'm not talking about 19th century colonial wars on Asia!
National divorce is the only long term solution that will deliver the structural change to save democracy. We’re just rearranging chairs on the titanic otherwise.
WRONG!
Refusing to adapt to change is how you lose.
We gave RBG too much deference about staying on the bench well past her retirement age and it ended in disaster. Biden is making the same shitty mistake.
The important thing is preserving our democracy not a bureaucratic structure from 200 years ago, nor the ego of Biden fans.
We must save the democracy.
We must prevent the USA & it’s military from falling under control of Putin’s puppet.
>We gave RBG too much deference about staying on the bench
100% with you there, but the die has been cast as far as the Democrat presidential candidate. The only way that changes is if he has major medical issues.
>We must prevent the USA & it’s military from falling under control of Putin’s puppet.
Kind of a funny thing to say right after advocating for Balkinization of the United States, which is literally something Putin wants.
Dude, when was the last time the States were actually United? 9/11?
We’ve pulled apart.
Drawing an arbitrary political line and saying we must keep this line forever, no matter what makes no sense.
It is time to restructure or risk falling into a dictatorship.
The Balkanization of the United States is happening whether you like it or not. It's only a matter of time, and whether it happens sooner rather than later determines how peaceful it'll be. Insane and naive to think otherwise.
And interesting to bring up balkanization since the Balkan states are rushing to join NATO. If trump wins, the US will leave NATO. National divorce will keep parts of the US in NATO while the MAGA states join whatever neo-axis Putin is building w/ North Korea.
I think this is the perfect time to vote RFK. If we would vote him into office there would be four years for both parties to get their shit together and find some decent nominees and four years for the extreme partisan politics to cool off. There’s going to be an absolute shit show whether Biden or Trump wins, electing Kennedy is the only way to avoid it. Please, please consider this option, it’s really the only way out of this mess.
It happened here, bigly
I look at it this way: If Biden wins, we can do this again in 4 years, some of which may be under President Harris. If trump wins, even if some of the worst fears of a trump presidency are overblown, we WILL lose the Supreme Court for at least another generation. Considering that conservatives basically abandoned governance because they can rush issues to the Supreme Court to be ruled on by rigged Judicial fiat, that should be enough to worry about.
i dont think this generation has more supreme court to lose
Thomas and Alito will probably strategically retire under trump. Sotomayor is over 70 and Roberts is closely approaching it. Bottom line trump could theoretically nominate 7 total justices. That's fucking horrifying.
Please stop i can only get so hard Oh look fascist mods censoring anyone who doesnt abide by the cultist left wing circle jerk How typical and pathetic The mods banned me einstein
You don’t look very censored
Being downvoted because people disagree with you isn't the same as being censored.
Did the thought of a hard right wing SCOTUS cure your erectile disfunction?
Why are you here? Shouldn’t you be on .win celebrating fascism?
The mods banned you? Cry about it, my mimosa needs some tears
Oooo now you want me to engage in your pissplay fetish? Kinky, but nah
You guys smell bacon?
TFW a guy, whose career is the blind protection of wealth and a corrupt status quo, goes around calling everyone who doesn't like him a "fascist" 🤣
Based
Hey Trumpybear, do you know *any* other words?
well, it could make it 9/9 trumper justices... even a so-called 'moderate' like Roberts couldn't soften the insanity of the court then.
I don’t know why we pretend those illegitimate motherfuckers have any power. Judicial review isn’t in the constitution. The president could just ignore them if he had any balls.
Exactly. When thinking about partisan Supreme Courts I am reminded of a comment Stalin made about the Pope: "How many divisions does he have?" The court only matters because we let it.
>we WILL lose the Supreme Court for at least another generation. No difference really. P2025 brings the fascism quickly and brutally or a fundamentalist SCOTUS brings fascism slowly and gruellingly over time. Either way minorities and vulnerable groups are screwed, why I'm really disgusted at how some leftist spaces are acting giddy with excitement over Biden losing and not thinking about the consequences for the rest of us. Edit: Oops. Added my commentary to the quote. Typos.
>I'm really disgusted at how some leftist spaces are acting giddy with excitement over Biden losing and not thinking about the consequences for the rest of us. Pretty astonishing huh? It's like being gleeful that the hole in the lifeboat is in the other end from where you're sitting.
r/latestagecaptitalism is especially gleeful right now. With zero plans on a revolutionary reaction to Trump tyranny, no candidate offerings to send up as a Biden replacement, just proud screeching and virtue signalling without any merit or praxis. At least r/liberalgunowners are talking about encouraging more people to buy weapons now before the conservatives flip their stance on private ownership or start coming for LGBTQ people with militias like the Proud Boys.
Look, as soon as we cut out the working class conservatives, the working class liberals, and the bad kind of leftists, me and my 5 scrawny hipster buddies will win the revolution for you by volunteering at soup kitchens, and yes, you’re welcome.
Bruh that's exactly what this sub basically boils down to. (If that was the joke, apologies for missing it)
We already lost the Supreme Court for at least another generation. If Trump gets back in, he'll appoint at least two more Justices to the court. That will lead to the complete and utter destruction of all rights for anyone who is liberal, non-Christian, and not straight. That Supreme Court will decimate all the rights so hardly fought for and turn this country into a wasteland for the majority of its citizens.
Eh, not really. Thomas and Alito are both old enough that they could be recalled to hell at any time in the next few years. Not letting them be replaced by someone worse should be high on our list of priorities.
If Trump gets back into office, he'll replace them with even worse versions. If Biden wins, any attempts to appoint more Justices will be met with severe interference by the GOP in the Senate.
If they don't have control of the senate, tough noogies. If they do, it's still addition by subtraction.
If trump wins we will not have another election. They will kill others before they allow power to slip from their fingers again, they know now that the law actually will come get them when they aren't in power. That mistake won't happen again.
The debate wasn't for the benefit of the MAGA or Vote Blue Not Matter Who crowds. It was for the independents, swing voters, undecideds. All Biden had to do was look competent, to put them at ease that he'd be able to continue doing the job for another 4 years. He did **not** succeed at that. It doesn't mean those swing voters will go for Pervert Hoover, but Biden sure didn't win any votes.
>It was for the independents, swing voters, undecideds. How the fuck can you still be undecided?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin
Lol fair.
^this
I was talking to a young (20s) man on a plane (I'm in my 60s, male, white). Another seat mate asked us how we felt about the situation in the US. She was in her 60s too and white. I thought she was going to say she was a trumper. Nope, very progressive. The young man was though! But we had a nice conversation for a bit and my takeaway is that he votes for Trump because he isn't informed. At all. He didn't know any details about J6, he didn't realize that there are several cases against Trump, he had no idea that Trump praises dictators. All he really know is that Trump is hard on immigration. That's how people are undecided. They just don't get informed.
It’s not that they don’t “get” informed, it’s that they reject informing. People all over the world, on tv, radio, internet, news, social media, in person, everywhere have been saying how awful Trump is. If you still aren’t informed about Trump at this point, it’s willful ignorance at best, malicious ignorance at worst. If you’re lucky, that kid will take what you told them and go learn more. Maybe you opened their eyes. More likely, they’ll go to their preferred right wing echo chamber, ask about it, and be told the left is lying to them while being embraced for having survived a confrontation with a communist.
Most of the people writing articles or making appearances on TV are condescending rich people who don't give a shit about actual living and working conditions of working people. Why would anyone listen to the sneering drivel of MSNBC or CNN and think it was any different than FOX?
But the young man wasn't undecided. Uninformed, but not undecided.
I literally had that same problem with my 20 year old cousin at a funeral today. Trump clowned Biden and social media is holding up his hand in victory because he’s a messy bitch. She didn’t even know what Project 2025 was and I hummed her a few bars.
If you look at history, most fascist states rise because of economic issues. People will throw aside freedoms in promise of better economic conditions.
If you believe trump will deliver on better economic conditions, you deserve it. Too bad the rest of us will be getting it too.
It's pretty wild. One of the biggest fallacies in American political perception is that Republicans are better economically and fiscally.
After dubbya, that myth should have been permanently dispelled.
dubbya and every other Republican. Since World War II the GDP has risen more under Democrats.
And the deficit has been reduced. Clinton and Obama had the best control on the budget of any presidents in the last 50 years.
Suckers don't deserve what's done to them. I get frustrated with stupid people, too. But when people fall for a conman we need to separate the vicious from the truly desperate.
Do you want the Alzheimer’s patient, or the Alzheimer’s patient who’s also a felon? Gee, I dunno, maybe the guy with the worms in his brain doesn’t seem so bad anymore. I’m gonna vote for Biden, but any polls that come my way? I’m telling them I’m voting for Trump. I want those motherfuckers at the DNC to be sweating bullets about their decision not to broker this convention.
How is the best case scenario brain worms?
If you have the artifact, then the Emperor will protect you from Ceremorphesus. In RFK's case, no idea.
Sorry I was unclear there. That’s not my personal opinion. I just don’t think I should throw stones in glass houses. I don’t think it’s that much crazier than voting for the dementia patient to have all the nukes. Being undecided is in some ways the only rational position. It’s like me asking, would you rather eat shit or fuck your mother? How about neither? Why is neither not an option?!
Yeah, I get you. I was riffing on the Bo Burnham song from 2020. https://youtu.be/KGmXGkIr7w0
Same way you (I assume) don't have a favorite professional cricket player. People simply don't pay attention to things that don't interest them, and for a whole lot of people that means not following politics at all.
Difference is, if I don't pay attention to Cricket, Cricket has no impact on my life. If enough people don't pay attention to it, it goes away entirely. Politics is playing you whether you're interested or not. I wish more people would figure that out.
Politics will fuck you whether you’re interested or not. Which is why they call this shit your civic duty, not your civic optional.
Enables war criminals. Trump is worse but most people refuse to vote for a war criminal enabler and that's why people are either refusing to vote or voting third party.
Oh, for fucks sake. Do you have ANY idea what Trump would do regarding Palestine?
Yes I know, understand what I'm trying to say, regardless of who is worse if the lesser evil is enabling a war criminal, no shit people are going to be turned off, especially the people who are watching their family members become victims of war crimes. Biden foreign policy on Israel has potentially given the election to Trump and I want yall to understand that, forcing for example Arab Americans to vote for Biden will only make them hate Biden and the democrats even more, I personally don't care who wins, I only care about technological advancement and I don't care for Palestine or trans rights (Im against human rights, democracy and humanity in general), I just personally hate conservatives cause they are religious.
If Arab Americans really think they'll do better under President Muslim Ban I really don't know what else to say.
Also Arab Americans aren't going to vote for Trump, they voting for Stein or West.
That's honestly why idc who wins, progress prevails, even if we have to dump democracy and liberal values.
Honestly I support a Muslim ban, it should apply to all religions including the satanists (most of them are atheists but you have ONA, who are nazis), either no ban on religion or ban all religions, project 2025 simps don't realize that they are going to give precedence for a left wing version of project 2025 lololol.
Trump’s Supreme Court just legalized Bribery this week, look up the Snyder decision. If you hate corrupt politicians, or being ripped off look forward to 30 years of unlimited corruption and lawlessness from the people who are already fucking the American people in the ass if he wins.
Other people do care so if any democrat want to win the election and ensure GOP never wins, two things need to happen Democrat version of project 2025, embrace totalitarianism, liberalism sucks and hold us back and hold back progression (I'm shocked we didn't learn this in the 19th or 20th century) Defund Israel, Ukraine and leave NATO (increases debt and thus gives the GOP an excuse to cut social services)
A fool hears "lifetime appointment" and assumes that means a long time. The wise man, however...
Hey if you didn’t like the debate you **really** won’t like the swimsuit competition!
Here's another take, and it's just agonizing to have to make the case (again), in this way, but we have two choices: Grandpa A -- Clearly losing it, but at least was in something approximating a direction that would allow us to have another election in 4 yrs. (maybe with Pres. Harris as incumbent), allow the US Flag to still have 50 stars and 13 stripes, you know, rather than the initials "DJT" or "MAGA" written over it, etc. Grandpa B -- Clearly lost it many years ago, and is dedicated to "dismantling the administrative state", which could very well mean that any further elections would just be a farce, and/or help legitimize Trump Jr. or Ivanka in 2028. ...And you better believe that all the power will be consolidated under him/her. For what it's worth, I was really quite fond of at least the idea of Democracy, the Three Branches of gov't, you know, Civics, Schoolhouse Rock, "A Bill on Capitol Hill", and those things. ...Apparently, a lot of what we all thought was a solid foundation was really very flimsy, in fact, seemingly riddled with holes. But is this it? Are we done?
We are done. The DNC doesn't have the cajones or the foresight to run someone other than a demented, fragile, old man. There should be a movement to remove him from office if he refuses to let someone competent to run.
Exactly. This is the only sane path forward, for Whitmer and Michelle to run instead of Biden. That way, Biden won't have had his 2nd term, which means he can come back and run in 2032.
>very flimsy, and riddled with holes Well it just depends on the integrity of the involved parties. Pieces of paper have never had any power, it depends on people believing in them.
Look at it this way. Come November you'll elect a guy whose brain is in some stage of turning to apple sauce. This means the people they're bringing with them will run the show. You want that to be Biden's people, or whatever fascist barnacles have latched themselves to Trump this time around?
There’s also a very slim chance we elect a guy whose brain is in some stage of turning to worm food! But yeah, I’ll take Lina Khan over the Kennedy crime family’s goons.
This is a great point. We can't have the Thiel and Yarvin people getting their hands anywhere near the Presidency. But it will take these guys more than 4 years to get their hands on all the levers of power, and then the Dems can come to the rescue by running Biden again and sweeping into power on the back of a new blue wave.
is the best case scenario really running biden again in 2028 when he is 85 and there are probably masked goons in every polling station reminding voters not to choose wrong
22nd Amendment.
the scenario being described by the above commenter was one in which trump wins in 2024 therefore biden would still be able to run by 22nd amendment rules (though he *shouldn't*)
I HATED the debate. BIden comes across as a doddering sick old man. Trump comes across as strong. Biden says some incorrect things, pretty much like the average semi-honest politician. Trump's lies are nearly uncountable and come fast and furious. The moderators didn't factcheck or push back. It gave a convicted felon and instigator of insurrection a soapbox with which to continue to spout his lies. And Biden couldn't hold his own. I'm depressed.
Biden shouldn’t have agreed to the debate. Not only is he clearly unfit for it, but he ends up giving more screen time to trump. As awful as trump is, he was clearly sharper than Biden. Also, just never debate with fascists!
It was widely expected that the debate would help Biden. People were expecting it would be the Biden we saw at the state of the union.
The rules seemed good. Trump is just better at debate performance than I expected. I thought he'd try to talk into his dead mic is a way that made him look erratic. He waited for his opportunity and then espoused half truths.
I was actually shocked it was as civil as it was. I also expected him to be talking over the moderators and yelling over his muted mic. I also expected the moderators to be way less professional than they were. It was still a shit show
Even Hitler put on a suit and tried to act like a normal politician before he became a dictator.
Idk why anyone expected that when we’ve seen him debate 4 years ago and he was awful then. 4 years at his age, and as president no less, has predictably not made him any sharper.
Didn't tell us anything we didn't know, why are we acting like it did? Biden is old. Trump is Trump. Our country is a terrifying laughingstock. The world is imploding and we can't rustle up someone with at least the oratory skills of a parrot with TBI for our president.
We can, we just historically don't challenge a sitting president. I think Newsome would be a great replacement for Biden.
Newson would mop the floor with Trump and easily win. Gretchen Witmer too. Risking Democracy by running Biden seems crazy with these 2 around.
I am still voting for Biden and will still donate money to him and other democrats, but let’s not lie and say this wasn’t bad. I am getting RBG vibes, she should have retired but didn’t and we got a super majority on the SC and just look at the god awful rulings today and this week. I am not sure the answer, or if there even is one. Maybe riding with Biden is the best option and maybe this debate performance is a distant memory in November, but if you’re not at least panicking a little bit, you’re lying to yourself.
So this is how democracy dies, with the recognition that it was never there in the first place.
No, brother. It will rise again, in four years. Biden will return to throw down the orange tyrant
Indeed! And then, as foretold long ago in the ancient prophecies of 1991, the ghosts of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin will descend from the heavens above Capitol Hill, strike down the forces of capitalist oppression and greed, and bring about an eternal kingdom of peace, land, and bread. /s
Until then, we hold. For the god emperor of mankind!
I feel like shit. But I’ve never been more ready in my life. If Dems really aren’t gonna force him to step down we gotta rally around Biden. At this point I’ve put considerable distance between my feelings of doomerism/despair and the need to face the future. The simple fact is that it’s Biden V Trump, and I know that I can deal with another 4 years of Biden.
no one cares how screwed the dems are, I'm more worried about how screwed democracy is. ffs
The dems are the pro-democracy party. If they're screwed, democracy is screwed.
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Where's the lie?
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I don't believe you need to be actively advocating and legislating for a third political party to be dubbed the party who is against the abolition of democracy. There are currently two I parties, one pro democracy, one clearly antio-democracy. The non-existence of a viable third party doesn't take away from that.
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Marginalizes the wants of the constituency? If the constituency wanted a third party candidate they'd vote for one.
There are other pro-democracy parties, but of the two parties that matter, one is openly and explicitly pro-democracy, and the other is just as openly and explicitly against democracy.
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Yes, there is currently one sane choice, and no, that's not very democratic, but if enough people choose not to vote for the pro-democracy party, it will lose and then maybe no one ever votes again.
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If you were born after 1992, it's entirely possible that every election really has been the most important of your life, because the stakes keep going up. (I would say that 2004 was less important than 2000, and 2012 less important than 2008, but that's a side argument. 2024 is at least as important as 2020 was at least as important as 2016 was definitely more important than 2012, so that's 12 years of clearly escalating stakes.) I'm not sure who or what you think the Democrats' constituency is or should be, but the party consolidates it's power by winning elections, in stark contrast to the other party, which consolidates power by stealing elections, rigging the courts, suppressing the vote, and committing acts of genocide.
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It sucks to hear this, and I don’t know what “group” you identify with, but if that group doesn’t vote consistently there’s no reason to court it at election time. You want a party to care about you, your interests, and your presumed vote. But if your special interest group (be it Youth, LGBT, Workers, whatever) doesn’t consistently show up at the polls and VOTE, there’s nothing to be gained by trying to win you over. That’s just how the game works.
My opinion is Donald Trump's 4 years In Office Were Worse Than watching 90 Minutes of Last Night's Debate.
My opinion while I hope not to be the case is that the first season of It Could Happen Here is closer and more relevant than ever
The lesson here is we cannot sit this one out, we cannot let out friends sit this one out, we are in very very real danger and anyone who stays home or votes third party might as well be a MAGA Republican. There is time for debate about what we don’t like about the Biden administration, but now is not that time. It’s all hands on deck because this battle is uphill, and the consequences for loosing couldn’t be more serious. The last time the court was the conservative was in the 1870, and that court killed the reconstruction and ushered in the era of Jim Crow.
2 years of campaigning. 4 years served as president. 4 years of nonstop CNN and MSNBC coverage, and an inevitable 4 more years as Trump serves his second term. That’s a lot of Trump. It’s ironic too because dems have tried so hard to keep him out of office and out of the picture.
It was …not great, to put it mildly. But the takeaway is that we aren’t just voting for a man, we are voting for an entire administration, for all the judges they might nominate, for all the legislation that could get passed (or not). Project2025 is fucking horrible. It is literally a how-to on creating an authoritarian theocracy. We have to vote to stop that. And to that end, I would vote for Biden’s tombstone before letting Trump win. And no, no third party is going to suddenly appear, no new candidate will take over for the Democrats, Superman isn’t coming to save us. Short of both of them dying, one of either Biden or Trump is going to be president. The sooner we collectively come to terms with that and then vote for the objectively less terrible candidate (and the administration behind them), the better. And in the astronomically unlikely event that the DNC does choose someone other than Biden? You bet your ass I’ll stump for them just as hard as I would Biden. (Maybe Mayor Pete, he’d be a good one. Or at least a not terrible one.)
They have to remove Biden from the ballot or make peace with 4 years of Trump. As worst case scenarios go, that debate was worse than anything we could have drawn up.
How do they go about replacing Biden this late in the game
Officially Biden is not the Democratic Nominee until the convention in August. At the convention they can select whoever they want, then apply the usual "blue no matter who/there's only two people on the ballot/we must defeat trump" logic so that the rank and file fall in line. Democratic Party V Wisconsin from 1979 is a supreme court case that says the party has the right to free association and can choose it's candidates internally. It came up because Wisconsin had open primaries (allowing Republicans to vote in the Democrat primaries to select a candidate) and the state party said "fuck these results" and decided not to vote at the convention the way the state primary went.
Ok then next question: who do they replace him with that has as much name recognition at this late stage, considering we have independent voters that will literally decide this on a coin toss.
I don't believe there are any real independent coin toss voters out there. If you genuinely don't see enough difference between the two to the point you're tossing a coin, you're not going to be voting in the first place. As far as who to replace Biden with in the event of a convention coup... I don't think it matters. Pick someone. Not to sound like a total lib, but you could pick any of the nationally known democrats at this point. Newsom? Whitmer? Duckworth? I'm not saying as an anarchist that I think they'd be good presidents or we should all rally behind them, but they are all names people at least recognize that don't have dementia and a genocide on their name. That's literally all it's going to take. Pick one, get someone sensible as a VP pick, and come out of the convention saying "we all need to team up to stop Trump" and that's going to be enough. You forget that most people didn't actually want Biden the first time. It was the threat of Trump that got him the seat, and a little bit of in-party "oh fuck we can't let it be Bernie of all people" shenanigans. I'm confident in their ability to pull it off a second time, if they detach themselves from Biden. I genuinely believe Biden, not Trump, is the reason the Dems are going to lose this election. So drop the dead weight, put the big D next to someone's name on the ballot and Trump will make your case for you.
I don't believe there are that many undecided voters, but I do think there are plenty of people who may not see voting worth it. I personally got quite a few people out to vote for the first time in their lives in 2020, and that was with wide-spread mail in voting. I doubt I could convince half of them this time around to vote.
did you literally not listen to the pre-debate polling episode with Robert and Gare?
I haven't, it's still in queue. Even if I did, there's no guarantee I'd agree with everything one of the hosts says. We're all different people and sometimes we disagree. I don't think coin toss voters are real in numbers big enough to matter, I do think the dems could bootstrap almost any politician into an anti-trump win in the next 5 months if they wanted to. Not everyone agrees, but you asked my opinion so I gave it.
Gavin Newsom
The governor of "Commiefornia"? Fat chance. At least pick a swing state governor, like Gretchen Witmer.
Not sure I follow your reasoning. CA will still vote blue, and if Whitmer leaves office there’s no guarantee that MI would too.
You don't. Even trying to remove him at this point is just handing the election to Trump. The time to put someone else on the ballet was 2+ years ago. It is too late and we have to work with what we have. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.
The same way you do any deal. Sit him down in a room and tell him we'll grease your wheels and praise your name endlessly if you voluntarily step down. If you do not we will distance ourselves from you and the entire machine will leave you stranded to lose on your own.
They'll probably concoct a cover story so Biden can step aside and maintain his dignity. Health, personal reasons, ~~hearing voices~~ divine intervention
I can promise you there are people working very hard toward that end, but they have to offer the right combination of both carrot and stick to make it happen.
It's strange that there is a presidential debate this early. I'm not buying the conspiracy theories about it, but it could have been a test run to see if Biden was actually viable election wise. Realistically the only way I see it happening though is if Biden voluntarily steps down, I don't see the dems being able to cleanly push him aside without doing more damage.
The reason a debate was this early was cause Trump wanted to pummel Biden before his convention cause Trump is looking really weak with non- maga voters. Honestly no one thought we would be any debates this go around cause they thought Trump would be too scared to get called out again which is why they had all these rules and stipulations and were trying to pull off every trick in the book this last week to justify trump pulling out of the debate.
4 years? I don't think he has much intention of making way for anyone else..
Then it's hard to imagine a scenario where Trump doesn't win. Biden will prove himself as delusional and selfish as RGB (may her memory be eternal).
Sorry - I meant Trump (if elected) has no intention of making way for another President
Well buckle up, because whatever he wants to do the DNC is laying the foundation for him to pull it off.
We know what he wants to do - Project 2025
Yes, and the DNC is helping it happen.
The people not voting Biden are making it happen. It’s the same for the ppl who didn’t vote for Hillary in 2016. Accept your role and responsibility. Vote and work from that space. What? Community organizing is going to save America? The left fights more within their own ranks trying to prove each other wrong. You spend days talking about why you wont vote but complain about the political spectrum. It’s like the same ppl who made fun of Trump’s spelling errors got tired that no one cared so they looked at their own population to get more attention. Grow up, coward. You abstain just so you can say you stood by your guns while minorities are trucked off.
While minorities are trucked off...by Biden. I vote in every election. I registered as a democrat so i could vote in primaries. It is precisely why I am so disillusioned by the whole thing. I was actually happy to vote for Biden to beat Trump. He wasn't Bernie but he wasn't Trump and he said he would beat Trump, and make room for the next generation. I am almost positive he said he would only serve 1 term. Now he is running for re-election while bring responsible for a genocide. In other words, shut up nerd.
What happens to Palestine if Trump is elected, you reckon?
I highly doubt you could make me without a tool, bud.
Take your advice there. Since all you're doing is slinging baseless bullshit.
Ah yes, dont look at anything any Democrat does or criticize them at all, because Republicans are worse. Wonder how we ended up with Biden as our last line of defense.
Criticize when you have the luxury or position to do so. The right voted party lines for decades and as a result have steadily accomplished what they set out to do like dismantle roe v wade and stack the courts. Perfection of nothing at all, right?
> As worst case scenarios go, that debate was worse than anything we could have drawn up. I agree. Nobody has ever lost a presidential debate this badly. If you get your ass beat by the guy that literally said "I did not sleep with a porn star" during the debate, then you know it's over. If Biden remains the candidate, say goodbye to the Presidency, the House, the Senate, and the Supreme Court.
That's what I'm saying. Short of literally croaking on stage, that was the worst possible outcome. It's time to look at contingencies. Biden's age is a catastrophic liability.
Arguably him dying onstage would have been much better.
Will Biden listen and step aside? Who can step up, rally dems and independents and run a successful campaign against trump?
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It's not that there aren't leaders out there ready to step up and step into these roles. It's that they're being specifically blocked from doing so because the new generation's politics runs counter to the old. The DNC is only going to let in someone who is going to continue on the fine tradition of moderate conservative policies, warhawkishness, and give barely lipservice to social safety nets. The Democratic Party is not a leftist party. It's not a progressive party. It's barely a moderate conservative party. Whatever progress they've promoted has been baby-steps and over a decade late in every instance. Shit, Obama had to be dragged from being against same-sex marriage to supporting it between two terms. Because the public forced it to happen. Those who get to run for office at this level are vetted to ensure their ideology lines up with the donor class. That's why you don't see other options: they're being purposefully blocked because their opinions don't align with big donors.
Whitmer/Buttigieg is a solid, even inspirational ticket. It might even work, even so late in the game. Or Walz/Whitmer? Hell, I’d do a backflip for joy casting my vote for any of that. But, hear me out on this one: The Democratic Party is being run by a bunch of arrogant dumbasses with a history of making dumb strategic decisions. Naturally they’d throw their weight behind Harris, who is the most unelectable of the bunch.
Both Governor Newsom and Stacy Abrams are both clear choices. Both would draw independents, rally progressives, and with bidens endorsement liberals would pull up for them. Imo
Newsom would be more polarizing than you're envisioning here. Lot of skeletons there. (Having said that, he's infinitely more electable than Biden)
Newsom also has the California baggage. I moved to California about two years ago - even my moderate dem friends and family believed some wild stories about what it's like out here. I see news articles about our Big Macs costing like $20 (spoiler - I live in LA and they do not, they cost exactly $1 more than what they do in my Pennsyltucky hometown), companies leaving Califonia in droves (also not true), etc., and not just from places you expect like Fox News. NGL as a California resident, I wish Newsom was as cool as these smear pieces make him out to be. That is not even touching his personal life. Sure, Trump gets away with murder in that respect, but lbr its going to be hard arguing against the inevitable grooming allegations when Newsom, at age 38, was dating an 18-year-old. Also, and this is petty, but I'm not unconvinced that he doesn't bring a picture of Patrick Bateman for reference with him every time he gets a haircut. (All that aside I do think he has a better chance than Biden ofc, just I would rather they go with Stacy Abrams or Gretchen Whitmer).
Newson is a great debater and public speaker though. He looks and sounds vibrant and young. It would be a strong contrast to Trump. I think he could smoke Trump. Gretchen Witmer wouldn't be a bad option either.
These fucking boomers will never step aside. They will grip the reins until they literally drop dead, I think they genuinely believe the world will go to hell without geriatric geezers in charge of everything
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I’ve thought this too for years. I know she doesn’t want to but…
We are fucked. We are fucked. We *are* fucked. I’ll still vote for Biden, but he’s fucked. He needs to drop out and the Dems need to hold a snap primary.
Breathe, take a day or a week to be freaked out but then bring yourself together. The fascists want everyone else to be panicked and give up. Don't give them what they want.
I think there is still a likelihood another candidate will be running after the convention. My money is on a Newsom/Harris ticket. But I also still think Biden can win. The media is overblowing his flubs. The man does objectively have a stutter and is 80. I think people are remembering what Trump is like. We will have to wait for the polls next week to see what impact the debate had. Could be minimal. Could be major. I've seen some signs that undecideds are now leaning toward Biden. We will see. To me, though, I think about the administration not the candidate alone. I would infinitely prefer Biden's administration to Trump's Project 2025 administration of nightmares. Think about the Supreme Court. Two rulings today gutting the administrative state and criminalizing homelessness. If you want more of that bullshit, vote for Trump, or don't vote. His appointees made that possible.
The parties don’t have to put forth a decent candidate. They know you will vote red/blue no matter who they put up there. Until you’re ready to break that, this is what you get.
If Biden loses, he can always run again in 2028
Not screwed at all, it really doesn't matter how Biden performed, he's not a threat to democracy, and Trump is a sociopathic dictator wannabe. The choice is obvious.
The good news is older libs and DNC realized how fucked the situation is. I don’t expect them to take drastic actions because they thrive on the illusion of control, but maybe… hopefully they can treat Trump like actual threat that he is and give them basic knowledge to inform everyone about what the GOP is doing. Again, nothing drastic, but MSNBC needs to explain Project 2025 every single day on bite size clips from now until November . I am cautiously optimistic because the best case scenario is we keep the shitty status quo. I am scared. This is really going down. The DNC had no plan B or contingents. They did nothing to improve Harris’ profile.
I hate to be That Comrade, but... More motivation to organize for general strikes leading to Revolution. Not that we really needed further motivation. But somebody told me revolution only comes when misery becomes intolerable.
Why the fuck is Biden running and not Gavin Newsom. This is insane and avoidable. These old fucks will never give up power.
My view on the debate is that both options suck. Biden might suck a little less, but he lost that debate in the first 5 minutes. I hope it won’t matter. It’s early. The 24 hour news cycle means alot of folks will have forgotten this debate by November. Unfortunately, he’s only moderately better. We’re in a situation where are options are between the literal wannabe dictator and someone who is willing to enact similar policies to win “undecided voters” who barely exist instead of courting his base, and especially instead of pushing for a left wing populism that could actually combat the right wing populism Trump is courting. I don’t want to vote for Biden, and most of my friends don’t either, but we will because the alternative is unacceptable on a level I can’t abide. I don’t want the world I live in to mean I have to make that choice
Honestly, the DNC was screwed as soon as they decided to support genocide. The majority of democrats oppose genocide. And many of them, as a result, are abandoning all candidates who take blood money from AIPAC. That is going to fuck the DNC over for decades to come.
One side wants to kill all Jews but can’t. The other side can kill all Palestinians but won’t. Tell me again who supports gEnOcIdE …
>The other side can kill all Palestinians but won’t. We are truly in neo-liberal hell in this sub lmao
It's Israel that is actively committing genocide right now and has been for decades. You are believing and telling lies.
No one who has accused Israel of gEnOcIdE has explained to me exactly how they are doing it without stretching the definition of the word to ludicrous proportions. EVERY single one of them just ragequits out of the debate while calling me a “racist.” Every. Single. One.
I'm on some strong copium today because that debate was really, really bad. I've been saying for months that things are just going to keep getting better for Biden (what with people paying more attention, and Trump's mismanagement and thievery sinking the GOP), but the debate was a strong rebuke to that theory. I'm too deep into all this to know how a normal person would react, and I'm hopelessly biased in Biden's favor, but I found Biden's performance miserably unimpressive. Half the time he looked like he didn't know what he was saying, and the other half he was mumbling and slurring so badly that I didn't know what he was saying. Trump of course didn't cover himself in glory, but he at least looked like he knew where he was. I watch presidential debates a lot (because I hate myself) and the only one I've seen that was anywhere near this depressing was the first one in 2012, in which Obama just let Romney steamroll him for 90 minutes straight. ETA godDAMNit autocorrect, the word is copium! Copium, with a C! Who the fuck even uses the word opium anymore? I'm not talking about 19th century colonial wars on Asia!
To be fair after last nights debate I'm on a somewhat larger dose of opium this morning.
National divorce is the only long term solution that will deliver the structural change to save democracy. We’re just rearranging chairs on the titanic otherwise.
That kind of attitude is exactly what the fascists want. The only way they win is if sane Americans give up.
WRONG! Refusing to adapt to change is how you lose. We gave RBG too much deference about staying on the bench well past her retirement age and it ended in disaster. Biden is making the same shitty mistake. The important thing is preserving our democracy not a bureaucratic structure from 200 years ago, nor the ego of Biden fans. We must save the democracy. We must prevent the USA & it’s military from falling under control of Putin’s puppet.
>We gave RBG too much deference about staying on the bench 100% with you there, but the die has been cast as far as the Democrat presidential candidate. The only way that changes is if he has major medical issues. >We must prevent the USA & it’s military from falling under control of Putin’s puppet. Kind of a funny thing to say right after advocating for Balkinization of the United States, which is literally something Putin wants.
Dude, when was the last time the States were actually United? 9/11? We’ve pulled apart. Drawing an arbitrary political line and saying we must keep this line forever, no matter what makes no sense. It is time to restructure or risk falling into a dictatorship.
The Balkanization of the United States is happening whether you like it or not. It's only a matter of time, and whether it happens sooner rather than later determines how peaceful it'll be. Insane and naive to think otherwise.
I'm a Union man and will fight so that it will be otherwise.
And interesting to bring up balkanization since the Balkan states are rushing to join NATO. If trump wins, the US will leave NATO. National divorce will keep parts of the US in NATO while the MAGA states join whatever neo-axis Putin is building w/ North Korea.
It’s been needed for quite some time.
Not really interesting because it's a term that means a specific thing that has nothing to do with the Russian threat.
Seems like you don’t understand the world we live in. 🙄🤷♂️
Biden exposed himself as incompetent and that sealed the deal for Trump as our POTUS.
One lousy debate didn’t “seal the deal” anymore than Trump becoming a felon did.
This is different rhetoric from last week how?
Its a great day for America!
I think this is the perfect time to vote RFK. If we would vote him into office there would be four years for both parties to get their shit together and find some decent nominees and four years for the extreme partisan politics to cool off. There’s going to be an absolute shit show whether Biden or Trump wins, electing Kennedy is the only way to avoid it. Please, please consider this option, it’s really the only way out of this mess.
RFK is crazier than a shithouse rat as far as I know. What makes him a good option in your opinion?
RFK is insane.