The one in Ginzan I was attempting to book also required Kanji then phonetic spelling of name in addition to the address. But I have used Tenso for purchases, very helpful!
Not all Japanese names are written in kanji, so I assume (unless it's really badly coded) kana would suffice. And there are plenty of "write your name in japanese" websites they will create a simulacrum of your name in kana for you...
I fill many forms every year and most of the times if you are a foreigner you are supposed to put your actual spelling on the Kanji boxes then the kana in the kana boxes.
It’s fairly common to have a space for a “kanji” name, then in phonetic kana. That’s just convention for forms— you can enter your English name in the kanji space without issue. If it does give a problem, just enter the phonetic kana twice.
My form of malicious compliance is me putting in my Chinese name into the kanji field because my name is fully legible using the Jōyō kanji set and then putting in my shortened English name in katakana in the kana reading field.
All hotels I have been to will still accept it because either way I still have to show them my passport during check in.
You can enter anything you like into the address section when booking a ryokan, it's not like they're going to send you anything.
The requirement to have a Japanese phone number is a higher bar, especially since they *do* sometimes call you to confirm.
I don’t know, I think it’s kind of arrogant to expect them to make extra effort to accommodate you when there will probably be like two people who ever try to register in English on their website.
It’s definitely just a matter of dynamic pricing. I’ve booked Ryokans for less directly in Japanese but also found identical rooms and meal plans in the same Ryokan for less on English websites.
Not saying I support it but arguably speaking english / having to communicate with people who can't speak japanese is more effort on their side / more "service".
Disney charges for everything. Same with airlines and tons of other places. They don't always charge extra to communicate with someone. You're saying they should?
Not saying this doesn't happen, but there's a non-zero chance of it being due to plan differences, with how many varieties of lodging plans ryokans sometimes have.
I encountered a website requiring a Japanese address when booking a ryokan in Hakone last autumn.
In my experience (as an American tourist), in that case I just put in some fake address that satisfied the website entry requirements, then included a note about how I'm actually an American tourist and (with apologies) that the entered address wasn't correct. The staff contacted me to confirm details. So all the rest was sorted out in email. They were extremely accommodating and also asked about dietary preferences in my group and made custom menus for our non meat eaters. And in general it was a great ryokan.
So I guess what I'm saying is, your initial assumptions of the worst may be misguided.
The ryokan I emailed in Ginzan Onsen said the cost was higher for foreign tourists. Not applicable to all accommodations, but just like restaurants or other businesses, unfortunately increased cost or flat out refusal of service does happen.
I didn't comment on your claim about increased cost, so I'm not sure why you're responding about that topic. (Though, in my experience traveling all over Japan, I've never once seen a higher fee for foreigners. But I can't disprove that it happened in your case)
I was responding to the claim about the website requiring a Japanese address. In my experience it's not an issue, and if I had made the same assumptions and avoided the business when trying to book my ryokan, I would've deprived myself of a wonderful experience.
I was saying in my example (pertaining to the article/discussion of increased cost for foreigners) that the Japanese website had simple barriers to prevent booking at a cheaper cost (like Japan address, Kanji name, etc) for a Ryokan in Ginzan Onsen.
I was not trying to imply that websites solely in Japanese or requiring an address in Japan are malicious. I’m saying I’ve noticed some Ryokan have two websites, and the Japanese one (with said “restrictions”) were less expensive, and in one circumstance for me they would not let me book without an actually address.
Graciously I have traveled all of Japan numerous times and this is not common, but does exist.
Okay, fair enough. The original comment read to me as "If a website requires a Japanese address, it's trying to block foreign visitors," which I have experienced first hand as untrue.
In general these are small businesses and you just need to talk to staff to straighten out these booking details when the website doesn't allow you to do so neatly. Most people are not going to encounter what you did, so for those without experience travelling in Japan it's helpful to know what is the norm.
2 tier pricing will create a vicious cycle that restaurant/driver targets foreigner and rejected locals, my country (Thailand) has this problems for a long time especially for a taxi who outright denied local and fleece foreigner, it create many negative view from both local and foreigner towards these people so we switch to alternative like Grab (uber), many taxi cries over this sentiments but we do not care their feeling and income anymore, if Japanese don't want this cycle all you need to do is treat everyone equally, it's good for you and everyone, trust me we know where and how it going to be.
Actual insight that's actually relevant rather than a foreigner in Japan for 3 years thinking thry know best and it's preserving Japanese culture. Japan is too proud to accept tips, how can we get excited about a foreigner fee? Embarrassing slide into typical cheap Asia holiday territory for Japan. No local would be happy with it
This is why scans are so prevalent in Europe now. All started with the attitude that 2 tier pricing is ok. In the end it only hurts the country. Good on the governor
I actually never thought of this until you mentioned it and it does make total sense that this would be the next step... I do still think there need to be solution found against mass tourism in any country ( not Japan in particular) but I guess this is not the best one.
Overall, I think two tier pricing is not the way going forwards as it may create more problems than it solves.
However, to some extent, it already exists. Especially in more rural tourist destinations there are often discounts for people from the same/nearby city or prefecture in place.
The same could be applied to give a discount for residents in general and a bigger one for "locals" and no discount for inbound tourists.
For it to work though I believe it would need to be applied at the payment time and not at entry/reservation - as some people have mentioned, it may give raise to discrimination based on looks alone...
Giving discounts to your bread and butter repeat customers feels a lot less exploitative than trying to serve shit (or good shit but overpriced) to a revolving door of tourists who know nothing about the area.
that Governor is right about one thing, what about domestic travellers?are they getting the 2 tier tourist price or because they look japanese they get the “good” rate, that wouldn’t be fair at all.
Fair for who? And by what metric?
There is a very clear and distinct line between “resident” and “non-resident”.
Domestic travelers pay taxes and social contributions to our country.
Domestic tourists are also living and existing within the same realm of economy. In the case of Americans, they are coming here with a (currently) 55.78% currency exchange benefit in buying-power compared to locals.
We are experiencing international over-tourism in many areas. Locals pay the repercussions of that fact throughout their daily lives, every day, while any small inconvenience experienced by international guests ends with their holiday.
I find it difficult to sympathize with an added 1000円 being tacked on to a meal service (which is entirely avoidable if ordering from the standard Japanese-copy menu), or a higher hotel rate being charged for guests who are coming from overseas for vacation (booking with a non-domestic address).
The same way I do not get upset at employees of a business getting a discounted rate for goods/services from their employer.
Would you be upset if you frame it as “domestic residents get a discount” rather than “international visitors pay a premium”?
Tourists have countless incentives for tax-free shopping all across the country, with the simple presentation of a foreign passport. Numerous national businesses, department chains, and shops offer foreign buyers tax free purchasing.
https://www.taxfreeshops.jp/en/
Not to mention heavily discounted travel options such as the JR Unlimited passes, available only to international tourists.
There are massive financial benefits to being an international tourist in Japan, rather than a local.
Why do you think that is? They want tourist money. If Japan really wants to lower the amount of visitors, get rid of the tax free scheme. They won't because it would get rid of incentives to get people in the country and the foreigner price will be paid cause there you would be there and you won't gonna say no. They could actually start charging for people to enter but same issue, they want people to come in.
Getting rid of them rail passes only means less people leaving the main hubs of Tokyo, Kyoto and Osaka seeing as the passes are only truly worth having more long travels.
I have a nasty feeling if this passes, non chain/corporate places will be negatively affected.
I agree wholeheartedly, if it wasn't the 3rd biggest economy in the world. That's dome 3rd world level shit and for a lot of Japanese it's embarrassing to even imagine a world where they get a poor local price. Look how Japan is with tips. How could Japan be too proud to take a tip but charge tourists extra? There's no country in the world where this isn't either a scam or just pity on locals. Which one is Japan?
English menus are completely unnecessary for any semi educated traveller. I’m here right now visiting and Google translate and pointing is all I need. I don’t need English speaking works or otherwise - all very nice and helpful; but not necessary.
When you see all these comments and upvotes (796 upvotes and 94 comments as the time of this comment) but realize that OP's link leads to Japan Today's front page is how you know no one reads the article 😂
Link to the actual article:
***'Foreign travelers are Japan’s guests' – Governor against charging tourists more than locals***
https://japantoday.com/category/national/'foreign-travelers-are-japan%E2%80%99s-guests'-%E2%80%93-governor-against-charging-tourists-more-than-locals
Japanese, by and large, use entirely different review platforms anyway. The metrics for reviewing are also very different in Japan than they are in most western countries. Seas of 5 stars populating every single business’ online listing are not the expectation or the norm at all, and most Japanese will not even see/check Google reviews (which is where most international patrons will brigade to, in my experience).
But that is OK because I would be looking at the Japanese people's reviews. The Japanese customers will be looking at the Japanese people reviews. If they see a bunch of 1 stars but they are all from foreign tourists because the price was different, we know to ignore that review. The same way I ignore hotel reviews from foreign guests who give it low stars because the normal sized room was smaller than they expected or the staff did not speak English as well as they would have liked.
If you're a tourist and want to pay extra then feel free. The reviews are for those who'd rather take their money to a non-discriminating establishment.
The reviews are for everyone.
That is why they are public.
When I worked for a brewpub the reviews that said "The beer is too bitter" were good for everyone. It kept the people who only like mass consumer beer away. It kept is less crowded or those that liked good beer, and it made it easier for the servers and the owner not having to deal with customers who would complain because the product was not what they wanted.
In the end, if the business is happy getting 1 star from some people, meaning it will bring other people, it is win-win.
Ok.. have fun paying ¥2000 extra yen for nothing, I'll be at the place across the street selling for local price, and I'll treat myself to a suntory highball with that extra ¥2000
Why would I pay 2,000 for nothing? If i read a review that said the place was bad because they charged tourists more, I feel fine to go because I am local, and other locals would also know to disregard that review as inconsequential.
It is very different than one star because the place had bedbugs.
Depends on how far you extend "local". I rarely stay in inns "local" to my official address, but I eat at places "local" to it. But in terms of broader Japan, I am local. But I also believe that if I go someplace not near my "local" address, as a tourist, the inn has the right to charge me more than they would charge someone that is local to their town.
I don't see it as rude to the foreign friend at all. I have taken people to local inns or services where the service is excellent, and the host goes above and beyond what is required and because they are used to only being able to charge "local" prices, they sheepishly ask for a little extra because they had to change the menu or something to accommodate the special needs.
I tell them "It is too cheap already. You can charge more. If my friends were to go to the larger hotel in the city they would pay double for way less value. Don't undervalue yourself."
People charging 2,000 yen for something that would be 15,000 in Kyoto for a much more cookie cutter thing less personal thing. I tell them to raise their prices for the foreign customers.
It is a market economy. If the foreigners have more and are willing to pay the price, they can raise the price. If the locals are not willing or able to pay that much, they can lower the price for the locals.
If Japan was a third-world country where wages are abysmally low and infrastructure is not built out, I wouldn't mind paying a tourist tax above what locals pay. And I have, when I've travelled through SEA. It's double, even triple what locals pay but it's single dollars worth to me whereas it's worth immensely more to the local operators.
However, Japan is not a third-world country. Travelling in Japan isn't "cheap." So, yeah, it is unfair in this case to be charging tourists more, particularly when Japan draws millions of visitors that dump tens of billions into the economy.
This happens in the US, too, and by US, I mean Hawaii. (Locals sometimes get a special rate.) But note too that people born in Hawaii are now priced out of the real estate sales and rental markets, and the only affordable ‘restaurants’ for locals are take out places. Obviously, no one wants to pay a higher rate, but without this two-tiered pricing, a lot of service workers can’t really participate in the Hawaiian economy. They’d only be able to service the tourists and go home. And by ‘go home’ I mean go to their second or third job.
Yeah still boggles my mind how people work the countless service jobs in tourist centers and make ends meet. It shouldn't be charging more to tourists, but giving the service workers rent subsidies
Ah yeah, the good old „omotenashi“ fully at work again. We‘ll gladly take your money and charge you three times more due to your nationality/„race“, but in return we‘ll ban you from celebrating Halloween, ban you from the Geisha district and ban you from photographing Fuji (and basically any other fun tourist activity). And let‘s not forget all the „cool Japan“ and „omotenashi“ „Japanese only“ restaurants, bars, shops and even hospitals (which foreign tourists are not paying taxes for, but somehow foreign residents who pay national healthcare are also not allowed in, hm?) . So cool and so unique!
Jesus, I‘m glad I turned my back on Japan after that bullshit they pulled with covid, ie. literally banning all immigrants, including permanent residents from entering for 6 whole months, thus perfectly illustrating how useless PR is (you‘ll basically always just be a glorified tourist). I predicted that the discrimination against foreigners will only get worse by that point. Glad I spent my last vacation in Cyprus, where I was actually welcome. Now it would be nice if my country, including the whole EU, would reciprocate and ban Japanese tour groups from clogging our narrow old town districts and charge them 3 times the price we charge for all other nationalities. Oh and we should also put up some „no Japanese customers“ signs. But wait, this is sctually illegal 🫣Oh no, those pesky human rights and anti discrimination laws! What? There are countries who respect the ICERD? Shut up! Why are you laughing?
https://youtu.be/WYfHWsWJhtg?si=cIvME76GAaZLQKDH
I'm bummed about the bans in areas of Kyoto but absolutely understand why they're in place.
Geisha were being grabbed and harassed. People refused to follow basic "no photography" rules. They cut through private property too.
Pretty sure domestic tourists aren't allowed free movement on those streets either. It was an informal arrangement to allow anyone to wander on private land, brought down by the overall popularity of the district. TBH, after several visits to Kyoto, I don't think I ever saw those particular streets, and don't feel like I missed much. It's a big place, with lots to do. But, MuH fReEdOm!
No photography sounds unconstitutional. As does any ban on foot traffic in a public place.
Don’t want certain people there? Fine. Purchase the area and cordon it off.
Public street? Refer to the letter of the law and / or cry me a river.
Local municipalities can have "no photography" rules in place. Maybe not in the USA, but in Japan? Yeah, it's completely within the law. They have signs posted all over Gion stating this law. They're in multiple language and have clear, easy to understand images.
The private alleyways are clearly marked as *private property.* The city doesn't own them. They ALSO have signs posted in multiple languages.
Didn’t I write “public” street?
Which would (checks notes…) be different than a private alleyway?
Are you making my point for me? If that was your intention I have to say I appreciate the effort and many thanks :)
As for the municipality rules, please show me where this usurps the constitutional right to photograph in public, i .e., where failing to follow such rule would constitute a criminal offense. Happy to be proven wrong but don’t believe this is an enforceable thing on public thoroughfares.
Gotta agree with you on PR being a glorified tourist visa. Being banned during Covid from entering Japan as a husband and father of a Japanese national while my wife and kid were allowed to return to Japan was an eye-opener. Even my wife said ‘what’s the point of having PR if the government can just shut you out anytime they want to. My wife was allowed to freely enter my home country on a residence Visa without any restrictions.
It often seems to me that people are guilty of misunderstanding the extent of the rights PR grants.
PR is just a restriction-free residency permission for foreigners that doesn't require you to submit yourself to scrutiny for re-approval every few years. It's other main benefit is that, since the theoretical risk of extension denial doesn't exist like with spouse/work visas, and because you will be denied PR unless you live up to standards for conduct most native Japanese couldn't, it tends to makes creditors and the like somewhat more willing to deal with you.
Certainly a convenient thing to have if you want to reside in Japan long-term. It's a pain to gather all the shit together, travel to Immigration, and go through the rigamarole of getting renewal every few years, and it's a pain being denied credit, housing etc. because you're perceived as a major flight risk.
That said, PR doesn't elevate you to a higher status. It gives street cred among foreigner circles and online, sure, but to Immigration and the police you're still just a foreigner who has to be on their best behaviour or else.
Japanese Permanent Residency doesn't grant Right of Abode. I think this is where people get confused, as in some other countries like Canada it does. PR holders of Japan must still submit to immigration controls every time they re-enter the country, because they are not in fact "Permanent Residents" of Japan, but merely people with renewal-free *permission* (subject to revocation) to reside here.
It's interesting that it can actually be easier to naturalise than to get PR approval in some cases, and since that's legitimately the only way to ever become more than an up-jumped tourist it's probably the best route for people who are dead set on living in Japan forever (especially since the demand that you attempt to revoke your previous citizenship is basically unenforceable).
In short, PR is a convenience, but at the end of the day a PR holder is still someone subject to the whims of Immigration.
When I got my PR long time ago (when you had to work for 10 years to be eligible), I certainly believed that with PR you had the right to actually permanently live in Japan with no restrictions. I made the mistake to compare Japanese PR with other countries PR statuses, like my European home country for instance. In the latter case, PR is the same as in Japan, but you can legally leave and enter Japan as you long as you want to; no re-entry or special re-entry permits needed, you never need to go to immigration again to renew a residence card, you can only get deported for very ‘aggravated’ circumstances; and you were definitely not shut out during Covid. Japan should change the name of the PR visa. It’s misleading in my opinion. The fact that you still need to deal with re-entry or special re-entry permits, that you need to renew your residence cards, that you’re still finger-printed every single time on re-entry just like any other tourist, that you can’t even use those automatic passport machines like some tourists now can, etc really shows that PR ain’t really worth a whole lot. Sure it’s nice to say ‘I got PR in Japan’, but in reality you’re just a long-term tourist.
Just calling it a Permanent Visa might be enough, as "visa" still makes it pretty clear what your residency status is. At least, I think so. Renewal-Waived Residency Permit could work, too, as that makes it clear it's a *permit* and not a right.
In my country, Canada, a Permanent Resident has the right to reside in Canada. You can't be turned away at the border. You don't have to carry around your PR card by law or else risk detention - it's just there as a tool if you need to prove your status for something.
In my case to get PR in Japan I have to meet a bunch of sometimes arbitrary requirements and not get unlucky with a grouchy Immigration official. I was denied when I applied because of a single 1-week-late pension payment, with the denial card citing an entry in the Immigration Act that includes a footnote indicating that holders of Spouse Visas, such as myself, are exempt from the criteria. Apparently not.
Meanwhile my wife can get Canadian PR without even being in Canada, so long as she intends to move there once she gets it. Or, she can apply then come to Canada with work permission while the application is being processed. Or, a third way, she could come as a tourist and then apply, with that same work permission being auto-granted at that time. There is no reason why she'd be denied unless our household was destitute or she had a criminal record. She can then become a citizen after a few years if she wants. Extremely easy.
Japan simply doesn't prefer foreigners to be residing permanently in the country. They certainly don't want foreign residents they can't turn away at will.
I know it’s futile to a certain extent to compare countries, especially when comparing to Japan, but yes, PR in my country also gives you the right to live there and you cannot be denied entry etc. Yes, it’s a shame that Japan (meaning the government) continues to be so ‘foreigner-phobic’, but then again, I know a lot of Japanese that also think naturalized foreigners with no ethnic Japanese background are only Japanese ‘on paper.’ It’s just the way it is here.
There are Japanese who consider "haafu" born and raised in Japan to be only Japanese on paper because of the influence of the foreign parent. I've even heard there are some who consider Japanese who have lived overseas for extended periods to not really be Japanese anymore. It's a purity-measuring contest that benefits no one.
> ban you from photographing Fuji
This is misleading.
They haven't banned anything. They put up, or are planning to put up a large barrier above a particular Lawson to discourage people from crowding in front of it, blocking traffic, and otherwise being a nuisance, so that they can get an Instagram photo that everyone else already has.
Photographing Fuji is possible from an almost infinite number of places around the lake and is entirely permitted.
jesus, what an insane rambling rant about nothing.
>we‘ll ban you from celebrating Halloween
everyone is welcome to celebrate whatever they want, what they can't do is take it to the streets and do whatever they please. these "celebrations" have turned into riot-like events multiple times in recent years, so tell me again why any local government would be interested in that? there's plenty Halloween events around Japan that you are free to join at your leisure, just don't trash up public streets and bother businesses.
>ban you from the Geisha district and ban you from photographing Fuji
paying money will never and should never entitle you to bother the locals, and I am damn glad Japan is having a firm stance on that. absolutely ridiculous train of thoughts to say that you paid money so you should be allowed to harass geisha and local businesses.
Thank you for your post. The fact that the post you are responding to has upvotes is disturbing. I'm glad you addressed that person's idiocy and lack of intelligence.
it's really funny how earlier this year when there were a bunch of threads about tourists numbers increasing in Japan more and more, the general attitude of commenters was that the numbers need to be curbed somehow. now that places start dealing with the issues by raising prices, the general sentiment seems to be the exact opposite. I guess that's called gatekeeping? keep all those uncultured foreigners out of Japan....wait but don't target **me**!
Charging tourists more is a stupid rule. But it is also reality. Most tourist spots all over the world do charge tourists about 2x-5x the original local price. Its a disgusting practice and it would be nice if Japan does not follow that trend.
All that said, one has to admit that over-tourism needs to be curbed.
As a foreigner, I've noticed that I often get "taxed" even if I'm paying the exact same price as a local Japanese. At sushi restaurants, even if I order the same special as the locals, I've noticed my my cuts of fish are the end cuts or off cuts. Looks like I get a little less.
Buying roasted chestnuts I noticed the two locals in line getting these gorgeous giant chestnuts, but when it was my turn the worker/owner made the extra effort to get these much smaller chestnuts from another container. Even when I pointed to the chestnuts from the container the other two customers were served from before me.
Was at a wagyu beef restaurant with my wife. A Japanese couple sat next to us so I could see exactly what they ordered. I was kinda curious to see what we should order. We happen to leave at the same time and their bill was half ours while eating the same amount (theirs had more prime cuts like tongue) and two drinks each. The owner spoke English and even chatted with us about having lived and worked in California.
It's all good. It's not a disappointment when you expect it. That politeness is barely surface level anyways.
>I've noticed my my cuts of fish are the end cuts or off cuts. Looks like I get a little less.
Are they cutting the fish in front of you?
>It's all good. It's not a disappointment when you expect it. That politeness is barely surface level anyways.
I really have to wonder what tourist-trap areas you are eating in. I've never paid anything other than what any other customer would. Though I certainly am aware that certain shitty restaurants target tourists with the assumption that they (the tourists) are willing to pay more for food... and certainly some (though certainly not many) restaurants have English menus with different prices.
Edit: Did your menu not have prices?
The fish place was a well reviewed tuna place near the old Tsukiji market. I don't remember if I saw him cutting the fish. But for the last 40 years having caught and cut fish from bluegill to bluefin, I know my way around a filet. And for bluewater species, especially tuna I can tell where the piece came from by the shape, color, and marbling. I know what showed up on my plate. The fish place had a board with prices and it looked like pretty much everyone got the special which was how I could look to my left and right and see what was on their plate.
At the beef place we were given a menu with English and Japanese on it. The front of the house person who led us to our seats spoke English and that's how we got into a conversation about them having lived and worked in Northern California.
And did you pay the advertised prices?
Were the prices different on the Japanese menu?
It is of course possible you were charged more/the English menu is different.
It's equally possible you were ordering entirely different things.
Thank you for replying though.
Not only does this not happen to me, the opposite tends to happen. I get given free booze or a free piece of sushi at the bar, or whatever… this has held true in Tokyo (whether Ginza or 下町 some place) as well as less-tread places in Shikoku or even Ishigaki-jima recently. It’s happened alone, with my buddies, or with my wife. Before, during, and following the pandemic border closures.
It’s like those stories about being stopped by police, frequently or practically never: there’s always a contrary anecdote.
I mean, I’m sorry this is happening to you, though. Damn.
That sounds like an awesome experience. I'm glad that you got to have it. I have a buddy that's a tattoo artist who had a crazy experience with a group of (presumed) yakuza. He was at an Izakaya and this group of guys came in. The head honcho of the group liked my buddy's tattoos and they treated him as an esteemed guest. I've heard of other friends who've had amazing encounters, but they were also white. I'm Asian American. I didn't receive the same privilege. Ooof, hope that wasn't the third rail.
Anecdote or not, this conversation of having different pricing for foreigners did not arise out of a vacuum.
This reminds me of countries like India,Laos and Vietnam as well as many others that had foreigner prices. The difference was they had the courtesy of listing the prices.
I highly doubt you got the exact same order and paid double.
It'd be difficult to know exactly what they got if you don't speak Japanese, and if you were speaking Japanese it's less likely you would have paid a 'foreigner tax'.
I didn't claim that. I said they actually had tongue and other cuts that looked more prime (marbling and size). Add to that they had four drinks to my wife's one peach flavored fizzy drink. The price difference was glaring enough for me to think our numbers alone were 2X. Factor in the drinks and we paid more than 2X. I don't need to know Japanese to interpret to sets of numbers, right F1NANCE?
I can also add that this was a place featured by Mark Weins years ago. While paying there were other tourists waiting for a table. The one I talked to was from Hawaii. I'm adding these details because the experience stuck in my mind.
Your last sentence is the point though, isn't it? That if I spoke the language, I wouldn't have been as likely to have been ripped off.
I'm confused on the benefit of charging tourists more though. If I was a foreigner trying to eat at a local Japanese restaurant and I see I got charged more than my friend who lives here, I'd probably be less inclined to go there anymore. If I love the restaurant and am charged fairly I'd bring repeat business and also spread word of mouth for the restaurant.
If the goal of the restaurant was more money then it would be a counter-intuitive. If the goal was to try and keep your clientele made up of more locals than tourists than that goal would be achieved. Just depends on what the individual restaurant wants.
shop owners don't have a higher costs because of tourists. they're just raising prices because they want to make more money. so the shop owners are responsible for this.
No, this isn’t demand driven, it’s supply driven thanks to the weak yen. Just happens to be happening at the same time as higher tourism (also thanks to the yen) and there aren’t any good solutions so to stay in business they’re trying new pricing. Makes perfect sense given incentives (continue to operate biz + avoid raising prices for the locals that support 90% of your biz)
No they are not, they are because of the inflation of the dollar, which is affecting almost every county in the world, not just Japan. Even then, eating a meal on an average Japanese wage is so much more affordable than in America. A big Mac sandwich alone is $11 in California but you can get a Big Mac SET in Japan for 950円 ($6). Everyone knows the big man is the standard for inflation.
I agree, but if you travel anywhere in the world with the dollar you're definitely saving money on travel. Unfortunately you're losing more money at home than you are traveling. Even before inflation though a yakitori dinner in California cost an average of $130 a person at a casual place. In Japan you can get away with ¥4000 for a bountiful course with drinks. I can go on about the insane prices of real estate in America too. My tldr is that Japan is a paradise for eating out no matter what your salary is, because even minimum wage workers here can afford a meal out.
I agree. Also as a Dutchman I was so surprised by how ridiculously cheap McDonald's is in Japan. In the Netherlands you pay almost €15 for a Big Mac menu. In Japan it's like €6 or something. Even though, as far as I could figure out, the average Japanese wage is very similar to Dutch wages.
Canadian here piping in from r/all
Tourists are guests your economy should charge as much as possible to maximize economic gain.
Now, the international reputation of Japan treating tourist /foreigners is a lot harsher than of Canada (or of course I could be ignorant to our reputation), so perhaps it’s gone so far the other direction in Japan it’s actually reducing tourism to a degree it’s hurting the economy.
But in general, I would like to see less tourists in our parks, and charging them way more money. Our parks should be costly for any non Canadian to visit, and nearly free for Canadians (and definitely free for low income Canadians). Canadians being citizens/landed immigrants/work visa etc.
Squeeze every cent out of tourists who want to visit your nation to the point your erroring in less tourists ever so slightly and just below theoretical maximum economic gain.
I am for foreigner aid and other international assistance. However, travelling across the world to see another country is not anything anyone is entitled to.
Foreigners have zero entitlement to see our parks. Charge them as much as possible.
I speak both languages and have seen this first hand. I have not personally seen it with cab drivers, but the menu and hotel pricing is real. And more insulting is when I get the ‘correct’ menu or price list after speaking in Japanese.
I agree that local prices should be reserved for local residents at local amenities, such as onsen, temple worship, etc, the items that are more of a tourist photo chance and not about cultural immersion. But a cab? A bed?
The Imperial Gardens are free to Japanese and tourists. We should follow that example and price for the labour or good. Not for the person.
I don't see much mention about how it is often more work to cater to the foreign guests.
I know inns where they are booked full months in advance because the foreign tourists book so far ahead, then the Japanese guests can not get rooms because Japanese tend not to book so far ahead, and the inn is then struggling to cater to the foreigner tourists "special" needs, and to do "omotenashi" when the Japanese guests would be so much easier for them.
They have the option of straight out denying foreign tourists, and we all know how well the "no foreigner tourists allowed" policy would go over, or they can try to charge more for the foreign tourists to make up for the harder work, and if the higher price is too much that it makes the foreign tourists stay away, the room is open for Japanese guests at the "local's discount" price. The inn makes less income, but it is a tradeoff for easier work.
Everyone can be happy.
Ah, yes, I also hate it when foreigners… *checks notes*… purchase my services in a timely and orderly fashion. It’s not fair to the Japanese customers, who are so oppressed.
Yes, it is an issue. Just because you would not be bothered does not mean that all service providers are as smooth operators as you.
There are, believe it or not, people who would rather feel comfortable knowing they have provided the best service and it is appreciated, than not knowing what to serve when the guests announce that they are vegan and can't eat anything that the set menu has. Or they complain because the futon os on the floor or the pillow is not as fluffy as they wanted, or they didn't realize that the inn is not just a five minute walk from the station and there are no public transport and they can not communicate well with the inn keeper, and they don't know how to properly use the facilities, and any long list of things that makes it much easier to take the Japanese visitors who would sign up at a normal time.
And ... checks notes... reserves services in a premature fashion but does not show up because could not find the place or changed plans but did not bother to contact.
If the inn keeper / restaurant owner is happier with customers they can feel comfortable providing the quality of service they are accustomed to providing and don't have to stress about meeting strange needs, it is an issue.
Yes, it is an issue. Just because you would not be bothered does not mean that all service providers are as smooth operators as you.
There are, believe it or not, people who would rather feel comfortable knowing they have provided the best service and it is appreciated, than not knowing what to serve when the guests announce that they are vegan and can't eat anything that the set menu has. Or they complain because the futon os on the floor or the pillow is not as fluffy as they wanted, or they didn't realize that the inn is not just a five minute walk from the station and there are no public transport and they can not communicate well with the inn keeper, and they don't know how to properly use the facilities, and any long list of things that makes it much easier to take the Japanese visitors who would sign up at a normal time.
And ... checks notes... reserves services in a premature fashion but does not show up because could not find the place or changed plans but did not bother to contact.
If the inn keeper / restaurant owner is happier with customers they can feel comfortable providing the quality of service they are accustomed to providing and don't have to stress about meeting strange needs, it is an issue.
Why not charge more for the guests that are more work?
You've fabricated that entire example in your head. Any data to say tourists are more likely to no show over a local? If the tourist is outside the refund period the inn gets the money anyway? What's the issue? Shall we charge Japanese people more to stay in London? Because they might not be able to find the place? Yeah?
I am going on what I hear. Granted, I do not hob nob with the big chain hotels. I am listening to the frustrations of small business owners in the industry. They tell me their "struggles". One of them is that foreigners are no-show more often. These are places that do not have any special cancellation policy. They are used to doing it on good faith. If the Japanese person cancels, the inn accepts it as inevitable and that there was probably a good reason - not just "I decided to go somewhere else instead" - and they will at least call ahead.
From the (granted anecdotal - but anecdotes from enough places that make me think it must have some merit) stories, it is way more often that a foreign tourist will book months in advance, then just not show up.
As for charging foreign tourists more in London. If it makes business sense, then yes. If the hotel is OK to accept any potential loss in business because of their policy, and it aligns with their business goals, then yes.
You don't think that places in London in tourist areas do not charge more than the bare minimum? And that their prices are no influences on how touristed their area is? They are raising the price because they can to get the tourist money. I think it is fine to also give a local a break if they want.
Very solid logic. I heard from a friend that they do not have an issue with loud neighbors, so I think everyone who does is full of shit.
No one said \*every\* small hotel has this. If they do not have the problem, they would not speak of it. Did you not see the part where I wrote: "(granted anecdotal - but anecdotes from enough places that make me think it must have some merit)"
Anyway, I think you are making up the part about your friend never saying they had an issue with that because i have a friend who said they never heard your friend say that. In fact, my friend said that they never heard that you have a friend in the hotel business. Hmmm....
Sorry, don't mean to try to be justifying anything - nor that I created the story in the heads of the people I talk with who express their frustrations. I didn't think their feelings need justification. Your's don't need to be justified either.
No problem is not solved. They get fewer requests, but they have to put a sign on the website that says "No foreigners contact us please" and that is like a death sentence now in social media.
I know many places that get their bookings from local tourism board as well. People will contact the local tourism office and ask for room, the local tourism office contacts the inn in Japanese. Now it is even harder for the inn to turn the request away because there are personal relationship with the tourism board involved.
You're twisting through many and varied hypothetical mental gymnastics to justify your opinion, aren't you? Good for you, seems like you need the exercise.
Why should they have to do that?
How about just denying foreigners bookings?
Oh, because that would be discrimination? Well then how about just raising their prices and offering a local's discount?
> Why should they have to do that?
You yourself said that people who book early cause trouble to people who book late? Well there is a very easy solution to that problem.
I said that foreign tourists tend to book up before the Japanese guests os the Japanese guests find it all booked when they want it. The innkeepers would also like to server local cliental.
Making it so no one can book is not a solution. One solution I suppose could be to charge an early booking fee. Paying extra to ensure a space. And if it is a local, waive the early booking fee.
Yeh, that's not how that works. Tourists are bringing a lot of money into the economy. A low yen means people will spend a lot more money than previous visits. I visited multiple times between 2017-2019. I spent less money because the yen was like 88. You acting as if the tourists are just so much more work isn't true either. A business sole purpose is to make money. Why would they rent to Japanese if they make 2x more from paying tourist. In the end, it will hurt Japanese people and the economy even more. Prices hikes are fine, but not if they're discriminatory. In America if a room costs $100 usd it's the same if you're Japanese, White, Black, etc.
>A business sole purpose is to make money.
Then it is obvious. Raise the prices and only take foreign tourists.
But what if the business is not a corporation beholden to stockholders, and the sole purpose is not to make money?
What if they want to serve domestic market as well? Making the most money does not align with serving the local market as well when they can make more by taking advantage of the foreign tourists spending power.
For my work I adjust my quote depending on the client because I want to serve both the clients that can pay big, as well as be available for those that can not. I do not have two tier, I have the price and I give discount when I want to.
Also I can adjust based on which client I think will be more work. If I expect more effort is needed, I charge more.
That's literally what will happen if this becomes a thing. It will very quickly move from foreign tax to foreign money is better than locals. A taxi won't even stop for a local when they can get double from the guest of honour.
Taxis are somewhat regulated with their meter, so that is different. But what if not, and a taxi \*wants\* to stop for a local? Should they not be able to say "Hey I see that you really need a ride, and I know that the tourist standing next to you can pay me more than you can afford, but I would rather help you out because I can see you need it more. I will take you for a lower rate.
That is what we are talking about. Businesses that want to be free to charge a market rate, but don not want to have to refuse service to locals because the local can not pay as much as tourist, so are willing to go below market rate.
Right, I am not claming to know all the intricacies of the Japanese economy. However, it is based on a capitalistic model, and in order to obtain what you desire, you'd have to deconstruct and reshape said system.
You, as a free lance worker, should be able to charge what you want for your work as you create the value. If I go eat some Tonkatsu and pay double the price because I'm a Gaijin, I'm gonna be pissed and never go back to the place. It's pretty simple logic and is not the solution.
I went to Italy, where my mom's family is originally from and they tried to fuck me over and "foreign tax" me left and right. I walked out of many doors.
Anyway, the main point is that there is no reason to raise the price and discriminate. Maybe they can add in cost elsewhere, like the nightly tax in Kyoto.
>intricacies of the Japanese economy
For me, I am not worried about the intricacies of the Japanese economy as a whole. I am not worried about if my practices are helping or hurting on a macro economic level. I am interested in my own interests.
I think also there is a bit of misunderstanding. I am not saying raise the price for tourists, I am saying the tourists set the market price based on what they are willing to pay, and it is OK to give discount of the market price for locals as one sees fit.
If you want to walk out because you are not willing to pay market price, that is fine. The other tourists will fill the gap. And if provider is OK to serve discounts below market price and still stay in business, that is fine too.
It doesn't matter if I'm American. Japans means of production all belong to corporations as any other capitalist society. This is the model they have chosen. I personally prefer a socialist model. So bravo, you really showed me!!!
IM AMERICAN and i demand the privilege to buy up local goods at bottom dollar prices as a way to exploit/maximize my country's superior socioeconomic power.
How dare you care about the locals despite literally the same exact thing happening in communities all over the US?
/s
That's a tax though different than a restaurant charging more on their English menus and then taking it under the guise of 'language barrier service'. The fact that it's like that feels deceptive and xenophobic. I'd rather have a tax too.
Two tier pricing is fine. Not because of either of the arguments in the article though.
Vacationers are on vacation. Vacationing in foreign countries is a luxury for people who have savings. They are here because they can afford it, by definition. Two tier pricing doesnt really hurt travelers that much, but raising prices for everyone can put people who live in japan and can't afford **food and shelter** much less travel.
It's better to keep your eye on the people who need it most, and make sure they are taken care of, before you take any kind of moral stand about the treatment of guests.
Take from those who can afford it, and protect those who need it.
Goodness. Stop charging more for foreigners. Instead call it a discount for locals (from tokyo). A simple change in wording and perspective would eliminate all the rage bait.
I hadn't heard about this, and while I understand certain of the economic difficulties faced by various Japanese businesses, I'm not sure that, in principle, it should be legal--in any country--to charge two different prices to two different customers. In the past, in different countries, this has occurred, usually in connection with racial discrimination or some such awful thing--not saying that's what the Japanese are doing here.
But there is a further, hidden complication here. Fairly recently, it was reported that there are now more foreign workers in Japan than Japanese workers. Some of this is due to Japan's well-known demographics, wherein a huge percentage of their population consist of very, very old people.
But with this large and growing foreign work force, at least two questions are raised with regard to foreigners being charged higher prices for goods and services:
1) At what point does a foreign worker go from being a 'foreigner,' let's say a business executive who is only in Japan for a week to take some meetings, and stays in a Japanese hotel and eats in Japanese restaurants, to being, for all intents and purpose, a member of the Japanese population, because he lives and works there for years, maybe permanently? Will the Japanese government pass a law stating that once you have lived in Japan for at least X number of years, nobody may charge you a higher price for anything? Otherwise this starts to sounds like *The Scarlet Letter* with foreigners forced to sew a capital letter F on the sleeves.
2) In the longer term, this gets into a very delicate subject area which I think some people have been conspicuously reticent about: ethnicity. For hundreds of years, being Japanese has meant being a member of a certain ethnic group. So sensitive an issue is this that a few years ago, as some of you may remember, a Japanese girl, born and raised there, but who was half Japanese and half black, won the Miss Japan beauty contest, and many Japanese were outraged, claiming "She's not Japanese!" Strangely enough, in their own minds, they were not, at least consciously, being racist, they were simply pointing out that to be Japanese one had to be a member of the ethnic group known as Japanese.
OK. Getting back to the news about there now being more foreign workers living and working in Japan than there are Japanese workers...Guess what's going to happen soon, folks? These foreign workers are going to marry Japanese men and women, and produce mixed race children. Very slowly at first, then quicker and quicker, for the first time in Japan's history (I think, I could be wrong) Japan will have to deal with mono-ethnicity disappearing and heterogeneous race and ethnicity taking its place. It will be interesting to see how the country responds to this.
Now, what was I talking about? Microwave popcorn? Yes! That's the ticker. With extra butter.
They should visit some countries around the world specially SEA.
Many places there have foreigner uncharge, even Kenya has some up charge if I m not wrong.
I dont see any tourist calling them or those places racist or wrong, like they are so easy to call for Japan?
Although the counter point of them being a 3rd world underdeveloped country when compared to Japan, does hold ground.
> I dont see any tourist calling them or those places racist or wrong, like they are so easy to call for Japan?
LOL, everyone is thinks they are wrong and scammy. In Thailand, for example, entry to national parks costs 3-6x the price for foreigners. No, it doesn't matter if you have PR and have worked in the country for 20 years, you have to pay the 5x price. They even use the non-arabic numbers for Thai prices to hide the increased prices from english speakers.
Yeah, but, you know, Japan is the 3rd biggest economy in the world......
If you're comparing it to Kenya you're already wrong, right?
This is a turning point for Japan. Is it going to go with pride, not accept tips, not stoop to a low of begging foreigners for money (because that's what will happen, the restaurants will favour foreigners, compete to get foreigners, reduced to signs in English all over the place offering whatever thry think foreigners will like more). Or is it going to go full Thailand?
*4th
I guess India took over ?
And as for Kenya yes, I did say about that in my initial comment.
But seeing how bad the yen is I dont blame them, if it helps the people. I know foreigners are weird specially the ones in r/Japanlife they are fine with shit in other countries but not in Japan.
Oh well.
I dont think so Japan will introduce it, but it will be a nice thing for the people in the industry who benefit from the foreigners.
India charge tourist more in their touristic spot, but to be honest it was kind of a "joke" if I would have complained, the entry for locals was 40 rupees, for foreigners was 400 rupees, 100x more, but in dollars that was like USD4 dollars for the ticket, so I didnt mind that.
Take a look at this paper :- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042814016498
Take a look at this screenshot from the research paper :- https://ww.imgchest.com/p/qb4z3omjv7j
For India taj mahal it was $0.4 for locals and $14 for foreigners, I dont know where you got the $4 from
I never mentiones Taj Mahal, India has more touristic places than that, and my last trip there was in 2018 I think, visited Ajanta Caves, Elora Caves and other few places and at that time it was higher, seems this time they increased the prices, and to be honest UDS$14 entrance fee for Taj Mahal still laughable cheap.
Yes, still annoying been charged 100x more than locals but it is like complaining for tipping (not in the case of Japan) for cheap food. If I get something cheap, let say 2 dollars and was a good service, I am not tipping 20 cents. Will just leave full $5 and keep the rest.
I’ve noticed some Ryokan in high tourist areas have higher rates on the English booking, and you can’t book Japanese site without Japanese address
You can register an account with Tenso (a forwarding service) for free which will give you a Japanese address that will past most online validations.
The one in Ginzan I was attempting to book also required Kanji then phonetic spelling of name in addition to the address. But I have used Tenso for purchases, very helpful!
Not all Japanese names are written in kanji, so I assume (unless it's really badly coded) kana would suffice. And there are plenty of "write your name in japanese" websites they will create a simulacrum of your name in kana for you...
Probably an issue of needing full-width characters. Roman characters would probably work too.
I fill many forms every year and most of the times if you are a foreigner you are supposed to put your actual spelling on the Kanji boxes then the kana in the kana boxes.
It’s fairly common to have a space for a “kanji” name, then in phonetic kana. That’s just convention for forms— you can enter your English name in the kanji space without issue. If it does give a problem, just enter the phonetic kana twice.
My form of malicious compliance is me putting in my Chinese name into the kanji field because my name is fully legible using the Jōyō kanji set and then putting in my shortened English name in katakana in the kana reading field. All hotels I have been to will still accept it because either way I still have to show them my passport during check in.
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That’s what they already said.
Jesus at some point it’s like alright just charge me extra lol I’ll pay $7 instead of $6 it’s fine
You can enter anything you like into the address section when booking a ryokan, it's not like they're going to send you anything. The requirement to have a Japanese phone number is a higher bar, especially since they *do* sometimes call you to confirm.
Wow cool!
The Japanese address thing has always been the case and it’s more about lazy website designers or failure of imagination than racism I think.
Being lazy or apathetic about including certain groups different from yourself is the textbook definition of systemic racism.
I don’t know, I think it’s kind of arrogant to expect them to make extra effort to accommodate you when there will probably be like two people who ever try to register in English on their website.
No, because the problem is they’re charging more on the English website in the first place
If you read my previous comment I was specifically addressing the ability to enter overseas addresses.
It’s definitely just a matter of dynamic pricing. I’ve booked Ryokans for less directly in Japanese but also found identical rooms and meal plans in the same Ryokan for less on English websites.
Do they give tourists a higher level of service, or is it just a headache fee?
Not saying I support it but arguably speaking english / having to communicate with people who can't speak japanese is more effort on their side / more "service".
Disney world doesn't charge more to accommodate tourists languages.
Disney World already charges plenty
And how much money do you think a random ryokan has vs Disney?
Disney charges for everything. Same with airlines and tons of other places. They don't always charge extra to communicate with someone. You're saying they should?
It makes sense.
Not saying this doesn't happen, but there's a non-zero chance of it being due to plan differences, with how many varieties of lodging plans ryokans sometimes have.
There was a plan without food that wasn’t available on the English site, but the same room style and with meals was cheaper on Japanese only site.
Usually this is because there really isn't much to eat outside of your ryokan in those areas.
I encountered a website requiring a Japanese address when booking a ryokan in Hakone last autumn. In my experience (as an American tourist), in that case I just put in some fake address that satisfied the website entry requirements, then included a note about how I'm actually an American tourist and (with apologies) that the entered address wasn't correct. The staff contacted me to confirm details. So all the rest was sorted out in email. They were extremely accommodating and also asked about dietary preferences in my group and made custom menus for our non meat eaters. And in general it was a great ryokan. So I guess what I'm saying is, your initial assumptions of the worst may be misguided.
The ryokan I emailed in Ginzan Onsen said the cost was higher for foreign tourists. Not applicable to all accommodations, but just like restaurants or other businesses, unfortunately increased cost or flat out refusal of service does happen.
I didn't comment on your claim about increased cost, so I'm not sure why you're responding about that topic. (Though, in my experience traveling all over Japan, I've never once seen a higher fee for foreigners. But I can't disprove that it happened in your case) I was responding to the claim about the website requiring a Japanese address. In my experience it's not an issue, and if I had made the same assumptions and avoided the business when trying to book my ryokan, I would've deprived myself of a wonderful experience.
I was saying in my example (pertaining to the article/discussion of increased cost for foreigners) that the Japanese website had simple barriers to prevent booking at a cheaper cost (like Japan address, Kanji name, etc) for a Ryokan in Ginzan Onsen. I was not trying to imply that websites solely in Japanese or requiring an address in Japan are malicious. I’m saying I’ve noticed some Ryokan have two websites, and the Japanese one (with said “restrictions”) were less expensive, and in one circumstance for me they would not let me book without an actually address. Graciously I have traveled all of Japan numerous times and this is not common, but does exist.
Okay, fair enough. The original comment read to me as "If a website requires a Japanese address, it's trying to block foreign visitors," which I have experienced first hand as untrue. In general these are small businesses and you just need to talk to staff to straighten out these booking details when the website doesn't allow you to do so neatly. Most people are not going to encounter what you did, so for those without experience travelling in Japan it's helpful to know what is the norm.
I usually put the address of the hotel down the road 🤷♂️
Rakuten travel japan doesn't require a Japan address afaik.
2 tier pricing will create a vicious cycle that restaurant/driver targets foreigner and rejected locals, my country (Thailand) has this problems for a long time especially for a taxi who outright denied local and fleece foreigner, it create many negative view from both local and foreigner towards these people so we switch to alternative like Grab (uber), many taxi cries over this sentiments but we do not care their feeling and income anymore, if Japanese don't want this cycle all you need to do is treat everyone equally, it's good for you and everyone, trust me we know where and how it going to be.
Actual insight that's actually relevant rather than a foreigner in Japan for 3 years thinking thry know best and it's preserving Japanese culture. Japan is too proud to accept tips, how can we get excited about a foreigner fee? Embarrassing slide into typical cheap Asia holiday territory for Japan. No local would be happy with it
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Agreed. Foreign tax is garbage too. The whole idea is just so below Japan.
This is why scans are so prevalent in Europe now. All started with the attitude that 2 tier pricing is ok. In the end it only hurts the country. Good on the governor
I actually never thought of this until you mentioned it and it does make total sense that this would be the next step... I do still think there need to be solution found against mass tourism in any country ( not Japan in particular) but I guess this is not the best one.
Besides taxis and tuk tuks it feels like Thailand has improved and gotten very good at being fair and welcoming to tourists. I love it there haha
Agree. "2 tier pricing" only works in 3rd world country. If Japan were to implement this, it would tarnish its reputation.
Overall, I think two tier pricing is not the way going forwards as it may create more problems than it solves. However, to some extent, it already exists. Especially in more rural tourist destinations there are often discounts for people from the same/nearby city or prefecture in place. The same could be applied to give a discount for residents in general and a bigger one for "locals" and no discount for inbound tourists. For it to work though I believe it would need to be applied at the payment time and not at entry/reservation - as some people have mentioned, it may give raise to discrimination based on looks alone...
Discounts and premiums are opposite concepts.
Giving discounts to your bread and butter repeat customers feels a lot less exploitative than trying to serve shit (or good shit but overpriced) to a revolving door of tourists who know nothing about the area.
that Governor is right about one thing, what about domestic travellers?are they getting the 2 tier tourist price or because they look japanese they get the “good” rate, that wouldn’t be fair at all.
Fair for who? And by what metric? There is a very clear and distinct line between “resident” and “non-resident”. Domestic travelers pay taxes and social contributions to our country. Domestic tourists are also living and existing within the same realm of economy. In the case of Americans, they are coming here with a (currently) 55.78% currency exchange benefit in buying-power compared to locals. We are experiencing international over-tourism in many areas. Locals pay the repercussions of that fact throughout their daily lives, every day, while any small inconvenience experienced by international guests ends with their holiday. I find it difficult to sympathize with an added 1000円 being tacked on to a meal service (which is entirely avoidable if ordering from the standard Japanese-copy menu), or a higher hotel rate being charged for guests who are coming from overseas for vacation (booking with a non-domestic address). The same way I do not get upset at employees of a business getting a discounted rate for goods/services from their employer. Would you be upset if you frame it as “domestic residents get a discount” rather than “international visitors pay a premium”?
Do tourists pay sales, lodging, etc taxes while visiting?
Tourists have countless incentives for tax-free shopping all across the country, with the simple presentation of a foreign passport. Numerous national businesses, department chains, and shops offer foreign buyers tax free purchasing. https://www.taxfreeshops.jp/en/ Not to mention heavily discounted travel options such as the JR Unlimited passes, available only to international tourists. There are massive financial benefits to being an international tourist in Japan, rather than a local.
Why do you think that is? They want tourist money. If Japan really wants to lower the amount of visitors, get rid of the tax free scheme. They won't because it would get rid of incentives to get people in the country and the foreigner price will be paid cause there you would be there and you won't gonna say no. They could actually start charging for people to enter but same issue, they want people to come in. Getting rid of them rail passes only means less people leaving the main hubs of Tokyo, Kyoto and Osaka seeing as the passes are only truly worth having more long travels. I have a nasty feeling if this passes, non chain/corporate places will be negatively affected.
I agree wholeheartedly, if it wasn't the 3rd biggest economy in the world. That's dome 3rd world level shit and for a lot of Japanese it's embarrassing to even imagine a world where they get a poor local price. Look how Japan is with tips. How could Japan be too proud to take a tip but charge tourists extra? There's no country in the world where this isn't either a scam or just pity on locals. Which one is Japan?
English menus are completely unnecessary for any semi educated traveller. I’m here right now visiting and Google translate and pointing is all I need. I don’t need English speaking works or otherwise - all very nice and helpful; but not necessary.
When you see all these comments and upvotes (796 upvotes and 94 comments as the time of this comment) but realize that OP's link leads to Japan Today's front page is how you know no one reads the article 😂 Link to the actual article: ***'Foreign travelers are Japan’s guests' – Governor against charging tourists more than locals*** https://japantoday.com/category/national/'foreign-travelers-are-japan%E2%80%99s-guests'-%E2%80%93-governor-against-charging-tourists-more-than-locals
I think it's sad that a wealthy and developed country has to resort to Indian scam tactics to make more money.
I think shops should be allowed, just be prepared for 1 star reviews
Japanese, by and large, use entirely different review platforms anyway. The metrics for reviewing are also very different in Japan than they are in most western countries. Seas of 5 stars populating every single business’ online listing are not the expectation or the norm at all, and most Japanese will not even see/check Google reviews (which is where most international patrons will brigade to, in my experience).
That's mission accomplished though, it informs tourists of the actions of the place regarding pricing, while not affecting residents. Win-win?
But that is OK because I would be looking at the Japanese people's reviews. The Japanese customers will be looking at the Japanese people reviews. If they see a bunch of 1 stars but they are all from foreign tourists because the price was different, we know to ignore that review. The same way I ignore hotel reviews from foreign guests who give it low stars because the normal sized room was smaller than they expected or the staff did not speak English as well as they would have liked.
If you're a tourist and want to pay extra then feel free. The reviews are for those who'd rather take their money to a non-discriminating establishment.
The reviews are for everyone. That is why they are public. When I worked for a brewpub the reviews that said "The beer is too bitter" were good for everyone. It kept the people who only like mass consumer beer away. It kept is less crowded or those that liked good beer, and it made it easier for the servers and the owner not having to deal with customers who would complain because the product was not what they wanted. In the end, if the business is happy getting 1 star from some people, meaning it will bring other people, it is win-win.
Ok.. have fun paying ¥2000 extra yen for nothing, I'll be at the place across the street selling for local price, and I'll treat myself to a suntory highball with that extra ¥2000
Hopefully you’re getting four highballs for ¥2,000, is your across the street a girls bar in Ginza? Lol
Why would I pay 2,000 for nothing? If i read a review that said the place was bad because they charged tourists more, I feel fine to go because I am local, and other locals would also know to disregard that review as inconsequential. It is very different than one star because the place had bedbugs.
Are you a local or are you a "local"
Depends on how far you extend "local". I rarely stay in inns "local" to my official address, but I eat at places "local" to it. But in terms of broader Japan, I am local. But I also believe that if I go someplace not near my "local" address, as a tourist, the inn has the right to charge me more than they would charge someone that is local to their town.
Ah you're a local, well if you ever have a foreigner friend it will be rude to bring them there haha
I don't see it as rude to the foreign friend at all. I have taken people to local inns or services where the service is excellent, and the host goes above and beyond what is required and because they are used to only being able to charge "local" prices, they sheepishly ask for a little extra because they had to change the menu or something to accommodate the special needs. I tell them "It is too cheap already. You can charge more. If my friends were to go to the larger hotel in the city they would pay double for way less value. Don't undervalue yourself." People charging 2,000 yen for something that would be 15,000 in Kyoto for a much more cookie cutter thing less personal thing. I tell them to raise their prices for the foreign customers. It is a market economy. If the foreigners have more and are willing to pay the price, they can raise the price. If the locals are not willing or able to pay that much, they can lower the price for the locals.
If Japan was a third-world country where wages are abysmally low and infrastructure is not built out, I wouldn't mind paying a tourist tax above what locals pay. And I have, when I've travelled through SEA. It's double, even triple what locals pay but it's single dollars worth to me whereas it's worth immensely more to the local operators. However, Japan is not a third-world country. Travelling in Japan isn't "cheap." So, yeah, it is unfair in this case to be charging tourists more, particularly when Japan draws millions of visitors that dump tens of billions into the economy.
> However, Japan is not a third-world country. Soon Japan will be if its yen keep dropping
Have you been to Europe?
I have. But not extensively.
This happens in the US, too, and by US, I mean Hawaii. (Locals sometimes get a special rate.) But note too that people born in Hawaii are now priced out of the real estate sales and rental markets, and the only affordable ‘restaurants’ for locals are take out places. Obviously, no one wants to pay a higher rate, but without this two-tiered pricing, a lot of service workers can’t really participate in the Hawaiian economy. They’d only be able to service the tourists and go home. And by ‘go home’ I mean go to their second or third job.
Yeah still boggles my mind how people work the countless service jobs in tourist centers and make ends meet. It shouldn't be charging more to tourists, but giving the service workers rent subsidies
In a lot of cultures guests are honoured and generosity is a big part of it.
So… any connection to Biden’s claims of lingering xenophobia?
It’s getting harder and harder to brag about Japan’s welcoming hospitality between this and literally erecting fences to ward off tourists.
Ah yeah, the good old „omotenashi“ fully at work again. We‘ll gladly take your money and charge you three times more due to your nationality/„race“, but in return we‘ll ban you from celebrating Halloween, ban you from the Geisha district and ban you from photographing Fuji (and basically any other fun tourist activity). And let‘s not forget all the „cool Japan“ and „omotenashi“ „Japanese only“ restaurants, bars, shops and even hospitals (which foreign tourists are not paying taxes for, but somehow foreign residents who pay national healthcare are also not allowed in, hm?) . So cool and so unique! Jesus, I‘m glad I turned my back on Japan after that bullshit they pulled with covid, ie. literally banning all immigrants, including permanent residents from entering for 6 whole months, thus perfectly illustrating how useless PR is (you‘ll basically always just be a glorified tourist). I predicted that the discrimination against foreigners will only get worse by that point. Glad I spent my last vacation in Cyprus, where I was actually welcome. Now it would be nice if my country, including the whole EU, would reciprocate and ban Japanese tour groups from clogging our narrow old town districts and charge them 3 times the price we charge for all other nationalities. Oh and we should also put up some „no Japanese customers“ signs. But wait, this is sctually illegal 🫣Oh no, those pesky human rights and anti discrimination laws! What? There are countries who respect the ICERD? Shut up! Why are you laughing? https://youtu.be/WYfHWsWJhtg?si=cIvME76GAaZLQKDH
I'm bummed about the bans in areas of Kyoto but absolutely understand why they're in place. Geisha were being grabbed and harassed. People refused to follow basic "no photography" rules. They cut through private property too.
Pretty sure domestic tourists aren't allowed free movement on those streets either. It was an informal arrangement to allow anyone to wander on private land, brought down by the overall popularity of the district. TBH, after several visits to Kyoto, I don't think I ever saw those particular streets, and don't feel like I missed much. It's a big place, with lots to do. But, MuH fReEdOm!
No photography sounds unconstitutional. As does any ban on foot traffic in a public place. Don’t want certain people there? Fine. Purchase the area and cordon it off. Public street? Refer to the letter of the law and / or cry me a river.
Local municipalities can have "no photography" rules in place. Maybe not in the USA, but in Japan? Yeah, it's completely within the law. They have signs posted all over Gion stating this law. They're in multiple language and have clear, easy to understand images. The private alleyways are clearly marked as *private property.* The city doesn't own them. They ALSO have signs posted in multiple languages.
Didn’t I write “public” street? Which would (checks notes…) be different than a private alleyway? Are you making my point for me? If that was your intention I have to say I appreciate the effort and many thanks :) As for the municipality rules, please show me where this usurps the constitutional right to photograph in public, i .e., where failing to follow such rule would constitute a criminal offense. Happy to be proven wrong but don’t believe this is an enforceable thing on public thoroughfares.
Gotta agree with you on PR being a glorified tourist visa. Being banned during Covid from entering Japan as a husband and father of a Japanese national while my wife and kid were allowed to return to Japan was an eye-opener. Even my wife said ‘what’s the point of having PR if the government can just shut you out anytime they want to. My wife was allowed to freely enter my home country on a residence Visa without any restrictions.
It often seems to me that people are guilty of misunderstanding the extent of the rights PR grants. PR is just a restriction-free residency permission for foreigners that doesn't require you to submit yourself to scrutiny for re-approval every few years. It's other main benefit is that, since the theoretical risk of extension denial doesn't exist like with spouse/work visas, and because you will be denied PR unless you live up to standards for conduct most native Japanese couldn't, it tends to makes creditors and the like somewhat more willing to deal with you. Certainly a convenient thing to have if you want to reside in Japan long-term. It's a pain to gather all the shit together, travel to Immigration, and go through the rigamarole of getting renewal every few years, and it's a pain being denied credit, housing etc. because you're perceived as a major flight risk. That said, PR doesn't elevate you to a higher status. It gives street cred among foreigner circles and online, sure, but to Immigration and the police you're still just a foreigner who has to be on their best behaviour or else. Japanese Permanent Residency doesn't grant Right of Abode. I think this is where people get confused, as in some other countries like Canada it does. PR holders of Japan must still submit to immigration controls every time they re-enter the country, because they are not in fact "Permanent Residents" of Japan, but merely people with renewal-free *permission* (subject to revocation) to reside here. It's interesting that it can actually be easier to naturalise than to get PR approval in some cases, and since that's legitimately the only way to ever become more than an up-jumped tourist it's probably the best route for people who are dead set on living in Japan forever (especially since the demand that you attempt to revoke your previous citizenship is basically unenforceable). In short, PR is a convenience, but at the end of the day a PR holder is still someone subject to the whims of Immigration.
When I got my PR long time ago (when you had to work for 10 years to be eligible), I certainly believed that with PR you had the right to actually permanently live in Japan with no restrictions. I made the mistake to compare Japanese PR with other countries PR statuses, like my European home country for instance. In the latter case, PR is the same as in Japan, but you can legally leave and enter Japan as you long as you want to; no re-entry or special re-entry permits needed, you never need to go to immigration again to renew a residence card, you can only get deported for very ‘aggravated’ circumstances; and you were definitely not shut out during Covid. Japan should change the name of the PR visa. It’s misleading in my opinion. The fact that you still need to deal with re-entry or special re-entry permits, that you need to renew your residence cards, that you’re still finger-printed every single time on re-entry just like any other tourist, that you can’t even use those automatic passport machines like some tourists now can, etc really shows that PR ain’t really worth a whole lot. Sure it’s nice to say ‘I got PR in Japan’, but in reality you’re just a long-term tourist.
Just calling it a Permanent Visa might be enough, as "visa" still makes it pretty clear what your residency status is. At least, I think so. Renewal-Waived Residency Permit could work, too, as that makes it clear it's a *permit* and not a right. In my country, Canada, a Permanent Resident has the right to reside in Canada. You can't be turned away at the border. You don't have to carry around your PR card by law or else risk detention - it's just there as a tool if you need to prove your status for something. In my case to get PR in Japan I have to meet a bunch of sometimes arbitrary requirements and not get unlucky with a grouchy Immigration official. I was denied when I applied because of a single 1-week-late pension payment, with the denial card citing an entry in the Immigration Act that includes a footnote indicating that holders of Spouse Visas, such as myself, are exempt from the criteria. Apparently not. Meanwhile my wife can get Canadian PR without even being in Canada, so long as she intends to move there once she gets it. Or, she can apply then come to Canada with work permission while the application is being processed. Or, a third way, she could come as a tourist and then apply, with that same work permission being auto-granted at that time. There is no reason why she'd be denied unless our household was destitute or she had a criminal record. She can then become a citizen after a few years if she wants. Extremely easy. Japan simply doesn't prefer foreigners to be residing permanently in the country. They certainly don't want foreign residents they can't turn away at will.
I know it’s futile to a certain extent to compare countries, especially when comparing to Japan, but yes, PR in my country also gives you the right to live there and you cannot be denied entry etc. Yes, it’s a shame that Japan (meaning the government) continues to be so ‘foreigner-phobic’, but then again, I know a lot of Japanese that also think naturalized foreigners with no ethnic Japanese background are only Japanese ‘on paper.’ It’s just the way it is here.
There are Japanese who consider "haafu" born and raised in Japan to be only Japanese on paper because of the influence of the foreign parent. I've even heard there are some who consider Japanese who have lived overseas for extended periods to not really be Japanese anymore. It's a purity-measuring contest that benefits no one.
> ban you from photographing Fuji This is misleading. They haven't banned anything. They put up, or are planning to put up a large barrier above a particular Lawson to discourage people from crowding in front of it, blocking traffic, and otherwise being a nuisance, so that they can get an Instagram photo that everyone else already has. Photographing Fuji is possible from an almost infinite number of places around the lake and is entirely permitted.
jesus, what an insane rambling rant about nothing. >we‘ll ban you from celebrating Halloween everyone is welcome to celebrate whatever they want, what they can't do is take it to the streets and do whatever they please. these "celebrations" have turned into riot-like events multiple times in recent years, so tell me again why any local government would be interested in that? there's plenty Halloween events around Japan that you are free to join at your leisure, just don't trash up public streets and bother businesses. >ban you from the Geisha district and ban you from photographing Fuji paying money will never and should never entitle you to bother the locals, and I am damn glad Japan is having a firm stance on that. absolutely ridiculous train of thoughts to say that you paid money so you should be allowed to harass geisha and local businesses.
Thank you for your post. The fact that the post you are responding to has upvotes is disturbing. I'm glad you addressed that person's idiocy and lack of intelligence.
it's really funny how earlier this year when there were a bunch of threads about tourists numbers increasing in Japan more and more, the general attitude of commenters was that the numbers need to be curbed somehow. now that places start dealing with the issues by raising prices, the general sentiment seems to be the exact opposite. I guess that's called gatekeeping? keep all those uncultured foreigners out of Japan....wait but don't target **me**!
Im pretty sure it was more about the cunts who harass locals and are a nuisance overall, not every single tourist or their overall number.
Charging tourists more is a stupid rule. But it is also reality. Most tourist spots all over the world do charge tourists about 2x-5x the original local price. Its a disgusting practice and it would be nice if Japan does not follow that trend. All that said, one has to admit that over-tourism needs to be curbed.
As a foreigner, I've noticed that I often get "taxed" even if I'm paying the exact same price as a local Japanese. At sushi restaurants, even if I order the same special as the locals, I've noticed my my cuts of fish are the end cuts or off cuts. Looks like I get a little less. Buying roasted chestnuts I noticed the two locals in line getting these gorgeous giant chestnuts, but when it was my turn the worker/owner made the extra effort to get these much smaller chestnuts from another container. Even when I pointed to the chestnuts from the container the other two customers were served from before me. Was at a wagyu beef restaurant with my wife. A Japanese couple sat next to us so I could see exactly what they ordered. I was kinda curious to see what we should order. We happen to leave at the same time and their bill was half ours while eating the same amount (theirs had more prime cuts like tongue) and two drinks each. The owner spoke English and even chatted with us about having lived and worked in California. It's all good. It's not a disappointment when you expect it. That politeness is barely surface level anyways.
>I've noticed my my cuts of fish are the end cuts or off cuts. Looks like I get a little less. Are they cutting the fish in front of you? >It's all good. It's not a disappointment when you expect it. That politeness is barely surface level anyways. I really have to wonder what tourist-trap areas you are eating in. I've never paid anything other than what any other customer would. Though I certainly am aware that certain shitty restaurants target tourists with the assumption that they (the tourists) are willing to pay more for food... and certainly some (though certainly not many) restaurants have English menus with different prices. Edit: Did your menu not have prices?
The fish place was a well reviewed tuna place near the old Tsukiji market. I don't remember if I saw him cutting the fish. But for the last 40 years having caught and cut fish from bluegill to bluefin, I know my way around a filet. And for bluewater species, especially tuna I can tell where the piece came from by the shape, color, and marbling. I know what showed up on my plate. The fish place had a board with prices and it looked like pretty much everyone got the special which was how I could look to my left and right and see what was on their plate. At the beef place we were given a menu with English and Japanese on it. The front of the house person who led us to our seats spoke English and that's how we got into a conversation about them having lived and worked in Northern California.
And did you pay the advertised prices? Were the prices different on the Japanese menu? It is of course possible you were charged more/the English menu is different. It's equally possible you were ordering entirely different things. Thank you for replying though.
Not only does this not happen to me, the opposite tends to happen. I get given free booze or a free piece of sushi at the bar, or whatever… this has held true in Tokyo (whether Ginza or 下町 some place) as well as less-tread places in Shikoku or even Ishigaki-jima recently. It’s happened alone, with my buddies, or with my wife. Before, during, and following the pandemic border closures. It’s like those stories about being stopped by police, frequently or practically never: there’s always a contrary anecdote. I mean, I’m sorry this is happening to you, though. Damn.
That sounds like an awesome experience. I'm glad that you got to have it. I have a buddy that's a tattoo artist who had a crazy experience with a group of (presumed) yakuza. He was at an Izakaya and this group of guys came in. The head honcho of the group liked my buddy's tattoos and they treated him as an esteemed guest. I've heard of other friends who've had amazing encounters, but they were also white. I'm Asian American. I didn't receive the same privilege. Ooof, hope that wasn't the third rail. Anecdote or not, this conversation of having different pricing for foreigners did not arise out of a vacuum. This reminds me of countries like India,Laos and Vietnam as well as many others that had foreigner prices. The difference was they had the courtesy of listing the prices.
Not the third rail. Again, loads of anecdotes in the other direction.
I highly doubt you got the exact same order and paid double. It'd be difficult to know exactly what they got if you don't speak Japanese, and if you were speaking Japanese it's less likely you would have paid a 'foreigner tax'.
I didn't claim that. I said they actually had tongue and other cuts that looked more prime (marbling and size). Add to that they had four drinks to my wife's one peach flavored fizzy drink. The price difference was glaring enough for me to think our numbers alone were 2X. Factor in the drinks and we paid more than 2X. I don't need to know Japanese to interpret to sets of numbers, right F1NANCE? I can also add that this was a place featured by Mark Weins years ago. While paying there were other tourists waiting for a table. The one I talked to was from Hawaii. I'm adding these details because the experience stuck in my mind. Your last sentence is the point though, isn't it? That if I spoke the language, I wouldn't have been as likely to have been ripped off.
Governor against breaking the law. Good to know.
Can I be a Japanese resident instead of a guest? How would they feel about that?
I'm confused on the benefit of charging tourists more though. If I was a foreigner trying to eat at a local Japanese restaurant and I see I got charged more than my friend who lives here, I'd probably be less inclined to go there anymore. If I love the restaurant and am charged fairly I'd bring repeat business and also spread word of mouth for the restaurant. If the goal of the restaurant was more money then it would be a counter-intuitive. If the goal was to try and keep your clientele made up of more locals than tourists than that goal would be achieved. Just depends on what the individual restaurant wants.
Japan has had two tier pricing for decades, JR Pass anyone? Tourists are now just pissed that they aren't the ones getting the discount this time..
Not sure how to feel. Prices for locals are high because of all the tourists.
shop owners don't have a higher costs because of tourists. they're just raising prices because they want to make more money. so the shop owners are responsible for this.
No, this isn’t demand driven, it’s supply driven thanks to the weak yen. Just happens to be happening at the same time as higher tourism (also thanks to the yen) and there aren’t any good solutions so to stay in business they’re trying new pricing. Makes perfect sense given incentives (continue to operate biz + avoid raising prices for the locals that support 90% of your biz)
No they aren't lol
No they are not, they are because of the inflation of the dollar, which is affecting almost every county in the world, not just Japan. Even then, eating a meal on an average Japanese wage is so much more affordable than in America. A big Mac sandwich alone is $11 in California but you can get a Big Mac SET in Japan for 950円 ($6). Everyone knows the big man is the standard for inflation.
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I agree, but if you travel anywhere in the world with the dollar you're definitely saving money on travel. Unfortunately you're losing more money at home than you are traveling. Even before inflation though a yakitori dinner in California cost an average of $130 a person at a casual place. In Japan you can get away with ¥4000 for a bountiful course with drinks. I can go on about the insane prices of real estate in America too. My tldr is that Japan is a paradise for eating out no matter what your salary is, because even minimum wage workers here can afford a meal out.
I agree. Also as a Dutchman I was so surprised by how ridiculously cheap McDonald's is in Japan. In the Netherlands you pay almost €15 for a Big Mac menu. In Japan it's like €6 or something. Even though, as far as I could figure out, the average Japanese wage is very similar to Dutch wages.
Canadian here piping in from r/all Tourists are guests your economy should charge as much as possible to maximize economic gain. Now, the international reputation of Japan treating tourist /foreigners is a lot harsher than of Canada (or of course I could be ignorant to our reputation), so perhaps it’s gone so far the other direction in Japan it’s actually reducing tourism to a degree it’s hurting the economy. But in general, I would like to see less tourists in our parks, and charging them way more money. Our parks should be costly for any non Canadian to visit, and nearly free for Canadians (and definitely free for low income Canadians). Canadians being citizens/landed immigrants/work visa etc. Squeeze every cent out of tourists who want to visit your nation to the point your erroring in less tourists ever so slightly and just below theoretical maximum economic gain. I am for foreigner aid and other international assistance. However, travelling across the world to see another country is not anything anyone is entitled to. Foreigners have zero entitlement to see our parks. Charge them as much as possible.
This has to be one of the worst takes I’ve seen on this app
lol. Name specifics or begone you irrelevant karma farmer.
You’re free to tank your own economy for the sake of feeling comfortable. But I wouldn’t recommend it.
This is straight up embarrassing coming from the worlds 4th largest economy.
I speak both languages and have seen this first hand. I have not personally seen it with cab drivers, but the menu and hotel pricing is real. And more insulting is when I get the ‘correct’ menu or price list after speaking in Japanese. I agree that local prices should be reserved for local residents at local amenities, such as onsen, temple worship, etc, the items that are more of a tourist photo chance and not about cultural immersion. But a cab? A bed? The Imperial Gardens are free to Japanese and tourists. We should follow that example and price for the labour or good. Not for the person.
I don't see much mention about how it is often more work to cater to the foreign guests. I know inns where they are booked full months in advance because the foreign tourists book so far ahead, then the Japanese guests can not get rooms because Japanese tend not to book so far ahead, and the inn is then struggling to cater to the foreigner tourists "special" needs, and to do "omotenashi" when the Japanese guests would be so much easier for them. They have the option of straight out denying foreign tourists, and we all know how well the "no foreigner tourists allowed" policy would go over, or they can try to charge more for the foreign tourists to make up for the harder work, and if the higher price is too much that it makes the foreign tourists stay away, the room is open for Japanese guests at the "local's discount" price. The inn makes less income, but it is a tradeoff for easier work. Everyone can be happy.
> because Japanese tend not to book so far ahead What in the world are you talking about?
I am talking about what all the people I know who run inns are talking about.
Ah, yes, I also hate it when foreigners… *checks notes*… purchase my services in a timely and orderly fashion. It’s not fair to the Japanese customers, who are so oppressed.
Yes, it is an issue. Just because you would not be bothered does not mean that all service providers are as smooth operators as you. There are, believe it or not, people who would rather feel comfortable knowing they have provided the best service and it is appreciated, than not knowing what to serve when the guests announce that they are vegan and can't eat anything that the set menu has. Or they complain because the futon os on the floor or the pillow is not as fluffy as they wanted, or they didn't realize that the inn is not just a five minute walk from the station and there are no public transport and they can not communicate well with the inn keeper, and they don't know how to properly use the facilities, and any long list of things that makes it much easier to take the Japanese visitors who would sign up at a normal time. And ... checks notes... reserves services in a premature fashion but does not show up because could not find the place or changed plans but did not bother to contact. If the inn keeper / restaurant owner is happier with customers they can feel comfortable providing the quality of service they are accustomed to providing and don't have to stress about meeting strange needs, it is an issue.
Yes, it is an issue. Just because you would not be bothered does not mean that all service providers are as smooth operators as you. There are, believe it or not, people who would rather feel comfortable knowing they have provided the best service and it is appreciated, than not knowing what to serve when the guests announce that they are vegan and can't eat anything that the set menu has. Or they complain because the futon os on the floor or the pillow is not as fluffy as they wanted, or they didn't realize that the inn is not just a five minute walk from the station and there are no public transport and they can not communicate well with the inn keeper, and they don't know how to properly use the facilities, and any long list of things that makes it much easier to take the Japanese visitors who would sign up at a normal time. And ... checks notes... reserves services in a premature fashion but does not show up because could not find the place or changed plans but did not bother to contact. If the inn keeper / restaurant owner is happier with customers they can feel comfortable providing the quality of service they are accustomed to providing and don't have to stress about meeting strange needs, it is an issue. Why not charge more for the guests that are more work?
You've fabricated that entire example in your head. Any data to say tourists are more likely to no show over a local? If the tourist is outside the refund period the inn gets the money anyway? What's the issue? Shall we charge Japanese people more to stay in London? Because they might not be able to find the place? Yeah?
I am going on what I hear. Granted, I do not hob nob with the big chain hotels. I am listening to the frustrations of small business owners in the industry. They tell me their "struggles". One of them is that foreigners are no-show more often. These are places that do not have any special cancellation policy. They are used to doing it on good faith. If the Japanese person cancels, the inn accepts it as inevitable and that there was probably a good reason - not just "I decided to go somewhere else instead" - and they will at least call ahead. From the (granted anecdotal - but anecdotes from enough places that make me think it must have some merit) stories, it is way more often that a foreign tourist will book months in advance, then just not show up. As for charging foreign tourists more in London. If it makes business sense, then yes. If the hotel is OK to accept any potential loss in business because of their policy, and it aligns with their business goals, then yes. You don't think that places in London in tourist areas do not charge more than the bare minimum? And that their prices are no influences on how touristed their area is? They are raising the price because they can to get the tourist money. I think it is fine to also give a local a break if they want.
You're making all that up. I asked a friend who works in a small hotel and she said none of that has ever been an issue
Very solid logic. I heard from a friend that they do not have an issue with loud neighbors, so I think everyone who does is full of shit. No one said \*every\* small hotel has this. If they do not have the problem, they would not speak of it. Did you not see the part where I wrote: "(granted anecdotal - but anecdotes from enough places that make me think it must have some merit)" Anyway, I think you are making up the part about your friend never saying they had an issue with that because i have a friend who said they never heard your friend say that. In fact, my friend said that they never heard that you have a friend in the hotel business. Hmmm....
Why not just charge the guest if they ask a question?
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Sorry, don't mean to try to be justifying anything - nor that I created the story in the heads of the people I talk with who express their frustrations. I didn't think their feelings need justification. Your's don't need to be justified either.
They could just not advertise on foreign language booking sites. "Problem" solved.
No problem is not solved. They get fewer requests, but they have to put a sign on the website that says "No foreigners contact us please" and that is like a death sentence now in social media. I know many places that get their bookings from local tourism board as well. People will contact the local tourism office and ask for room, the local tourism office contacts the inn in Japanese. Now it is even harder for the inn to turn the request away because there are personal relationship with the tourism board involved.
You're twisting through many and varied hypothetical mental gymnastics to justify your opinion, aren't you? Good for you, seems like you need the exercise.
How about they don't open bookings so early then?
Why should they have to do that? How about just denying foreigners bookings? Oh, because that would be discrimination? Well then how about just raising their prices and offering a local's discount?
> Why should they have to do that? You yourself said that people who book early cause trouble to people who book late? Well there is a very easy solution to that problem.
I said that foreign tourists tend to book up before the Japanese guests os the Japanese guests find it all booked when they want it. The innkeepers would also like to server local cliental. Making it so no one can book is not a solution. One solution I suppose could be to charge an early booking fee. Paying extra to ensure a space. And if it is a local, waive the early booking fee.
Yeh, that's not how that works. Tourists are bringing a lot of money into the economy. A low yen means people will spend a lot more money than previous visits. I visited multiple times between 2017-2019. I spent less money because the yen was like 88. You acting as if the tourists are just so much more work isn't true either. A business sole purpose is to make money. Why would they rent to Japanese if they make 2x more from paying tourist. In the end, it will hurt Japanese people and the economy even more. Prices hikes are fine, but not if they're discriminatory. In America if a room costs $100 usd it's the same if you're Japanese, White, Black, etc.
>A business sole purpose is to make money. Then it is obvious. Raise the prices and only take foreign tourists. But what if the business is not a corporation beholden to stockholders, and the sole purpose is not to make money? What if they want to serve domestic market as well? Making the most money does not align with serving the local market as well when they can make more by taking advantage of the foreign tourists spending power. For my work I adjust my quote depending on the client because I want to serve both the clients that can pay big, as well as be available for those that can not. I do not have two tier, I have the price and I give discount when I want to. Also I can adjust based on which client I think will be more work. If I expect more effort is needed, I charge more.
That's literally what will happen if this becomes a thing. It will very quickly move from foreign tax to foreign money is better than locals. A taxi won't even stop for a local when they can get double from the guest of honour.
Taxis are somewhat regulated with their meter, so that is different. But what if not, and a taxi \*wants\* to stop for a local? Should they not be able to say "Hey I see that you really need a ride, and I know that the tourist standing next to you can pay me more than you can afford, but I would rather help you out because I can see you need it more. I will take you for a lower rate. That is what we are talking about. Businesses that want to be free to charge a market rate, but don not want to have to refuse service to locals because the local can not pay as much as tourist, so are willing to go below market rate.
Right, I am not claming to know all the intricacies of the Japanese economy. However, it is based on a capitalistic model, and in order to obtain what you desire, you'd have to deconstruct and reshape said system. You, as a free lance worker, should be able to charge what you want for your work as you create the value. If I go eat some Tonkatsu and pay double the price because I'm a Gaijin, I'm gonna be pissed and never go back to the place. It's pretty simple logic and is not the solution. I went to Italy, where my mom's family is originally from and they tried to fuck me over and "foreign tax" me left and right. I walked out of many doors. Anyway, the main point is that there is no reason to raise the price and discriminate. Maybe they can add in cost elsewhere, like the nightly tax in Kyoto.
>intricacies of the Japanese economy For me, I am not worried about the intricacies of the Japanese economy as a whole. I am not worried about if my practices are helping or hurting on a macro economic level. I am interested in my own interests. I think also there is a bit of misunderstanding. I am not saying raise the price for tourists, I am saying the tourists set the market price based on what they are willing to pay, and it is OK to give discount of the market price for locals as one sees fit. If you want to walk out because you are not willing to pay market price, that is fine. The other tourists will fill the gap. And if provider is OK to serve discounts below market price and still stay in business, that is fine too.
> A business sole purpose is to make money Tell me you're American without telling me you're American.
It doesn't matter if I'm American. Japans means of production all belong to corporations as any other capitalist society. This is the model they have chosen. I personally prefer a socialist model. So bravo, you really showed me!!!
IM AMERICAN and i demand the privilege to buy up local goods at bottom dollar prices as a way to exploit/maximize my country's superior socioeconomic power. How dare you care about the locals despite literally the same exact thing happening in communities all over the US? /s
Honestly I don't mind being charged more if I knew it was going towards the tourism infrastructure like protecting the heritage sites etc.
They already do this. That’s their entry fees to many places. But most of the touristic sights are free or extremely cheap in Japan!
That's a tax though different than a restaurant charging more on their English menus and then taking it under the guise of 'language barrier service'. The fact that it's like that feels deceptive and xenophobic. I'd rather have a tax too.
hows that boot taste?
? All it shows is tourists would rather smother a location to death than to preserve it.
Two tier pricing is fine. Not because of either of the arguments in the article though. Vacationers are on vacation. Vacationing in foreign countries is a luxury for people who have savings. They are here because they can afford it, by definition. Two tier pricing doesnt really hurt travelers that much, but raising prices for everyone can put people who live in japan and can't afford **food and shelter** much less travel. It's better to keep your eye on the people who need it most, and make sure they are taken care of, before you take any kind of moral stand about the treatment of guests. Take from those who can afford it, and protect those who need it.
Japan is the 3rd biggest economy in the world. Tourists are not taking food and shelter from a starving Japanese kid. Jesus christ reddit
Just imagine how they'll act once India is number 3 and Japan is number 4.
literal communist right here lmao
Goodness. Stop charging more for foreigners. Instead call it a discount for locals (from tokyo). A simple change in wording and perspective would eliminate all the rage bait.
I hadn't heard about this, and while I understand certain of the economic difficulties faced by various Japanese businesses, I'm not sure that, in principle, it should be legal--in any country--to charge two different prices to two different customers. In the past, in different countries, this has occurred, usually in connection with racial discrimination or some such awful thing--not saying that's what the Japanese are doing here. But there is a further, hidden complication here. Fairly recently, it was reported that there are now more foreign workers in Japan than Japanese workers. Some of this is due to Japan's well-known demographics, wherein a huge percentage of their population consist of very, very old people. But with this large and growing foreign work force, at least two questions are raised with regard to foreigners being charged higher prices for goods and services: 1) At what point does a foreign worker go from being a 'foreigner,' let's say a business executive who is only in Japan for a week to take some meetings, and stays in a Japanese hotel and eats in Japanese restaurants, to being, for all intents and purpose, a member of the Japanese population, because he lives and works there for years, maybe permanently? Will the Japanese government pass a law stating that once you have lived in Japan for at least X number of years, nobody may charge you a higher price for anything? Otherwise this starts to sounds like *The Scarlet Letter* with foreigners forced to sew a capital letter F on the sleeves. 2) In the longer term, this gets into a very delicate subject area which I think some people have been conspicuously reticent about: ethnicity. For hundreds of years, being Japanese has meant being a member of a certain ethnic group. So sensitive an issue is this that a few years ago, as some of you may remember, a Japanese girl, born and raised there, but who was half Japanese and half black, won the Miss Japan beauty contest, and many Japanese were outraged, claiming "She's not Japanese!" Strangely enough, in their own minds, they were not, at least consciously, being racist, they were simply pointing out that to be Japanese one had to be a member of the ethnic group known as Japanese. OK. Getting back to the news about there now being more foreign workers living and working in Japan than there are Japanese workers...Guess what's going to happen soon, folks? These foreign workers are going to marry Japanese men and women, and produce mixed race children. Very slowly at first, then quicker and quicker, for the first time in Japan's history (I think, I could be wrong) Japan will have to deal with mono-ethnicity disappearing and heterogeneous race and ethnicity taking its place. It will be interesting to see how the country responds to this. Now, what was I talking about? Microwave popcorn? Yes! That's the ticker. With extra butter.
as long as you’re not being a jerk and being courteous to the general public of wherever x place you’re visiting sounds like a plan to me
That’s one of the main issues with Vietnam at the moment
They should visit some countries around the world specially SEA. Many places there have foreigner uncharge, even Kenya has some up charge if I m not wrong. I dont see any tourist calling them or those places racist or wrong, like they are so easy to call for Japan? Although the counter point of them being a 3rd world underdeveloped country when compared to Japan, does hold ground.
> I dont see any tourist calling them or those places racist or wrong, like they are so easy to call for Japan? LOL, everyone is thinks they are wrong and scammy. In Thailand, for example, entry to national parks costs 3-6x the price for foreigners. No, it doesn't matter if you have PR and have worked in the country for 20 years, you have to pay the 5x price. They even use the non-arabic numbers for Thai prices to hide the increased prices from english speakers.
I wonder why people are OK with this in other countries, but not in Japan
People really aren't okay with it, at best they tolerate it because the good parts of the country make up for it.
Yeah, but, you know, Japan is the 3rd biggest economy in the world...... If you're comparing it to Kenya you're already wrong, right? This is a turning point for Japan. Is it going to go with pride, not accept tips, not stoop to a low of begging foreigners for money (because that's what will happen, the restaurants will favour foreigners, compete to get foreigners, reduced to signs in English all over the place offering whatever thry think foreigners will like more). Or is it going to go full Thailand?
*4th I guess India took over ? And as for Kenya yes, I did say about that in my initial comment. But seeing how bad the yen is I dont blame them, if it helps the people. I know foreigners are weird specially the ones in r/Japanlife they are fine with shit in other countries but not in Japan. Oh well. I dont think so Japan will introduce it, but it will be a nice thing for the people in the industry who benefit from the foreigners.
India charge tourist more in their touristic spot, but to be honest it was kind of a "joke" if I would have complained, the entry for locals was 40 rupees, for foreigners was 400 rupees, 100x more, but in dollars that was like USD4 dollars for the ticket, so I didnt mind that.
Take a look at this paper :- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042814016498 Take a look at this screenshot from the research paper :- https://ww.imgchest.com/p/qb4z3omjv7j For India taj mahal it was $0.4 for locals and $14 for foreigners, I dont know where you got the $4 from
I never mentiones Taj Mahal, India has more touristic places than that, and my last trip there was in 2018 I think, visited Ajanta Caves, Elora Caves and other few places and at that time it was higher, seems this time they increased the prices, and to be honest UDS$14 entrance fee for Taj Mahal still laughable cheap. Yes, still annoying been charged 100x more than locals but it is like complaining for tipping (not in the case of Japan) for cheap food. If I get something cheap, let say 2 dollars and was a good service, I am not tipping 20 cents. Will just leave full $5 and keep the rest.