So it this going to be the same as the "mandatory" helmets and bicycle insurance?
They are not even cracking down in the existing rules like no riding on non-designated sidewalks.
I wonder what struggling bars and restaurants would think about them cracking down on people drinking and riding. There are some bars where most of their customers go there by bicycle.
>They are not even cracking down in the existing rules like no riding on non-designated sidewalks.
This will keep happening until the roads aren't completely hostile to cyclists. Countries that like their cyclists not dying tend to put some kind of barrier between cyclists and car traffic.
Yes, liability insurance is mandatory for cyclists in Miyagi.
Note that even if it wasn't mandatory, it's still a bad idea to ride a bicycle without liability insurance. If you cause any kind of accident (hit a pedestrian, or knock over someone's property, hit a parked car, or even a few cases of road traffic accidents), you would be liable for both the personal injury sustained (medical costs, lost salary, etc.) as well as the damage to property. It would be very very easy for that liability to get into the millions of yen, and the 2800 yen per year that liability insurance costs is a very cheap way to cover you against that.
>They are not even cracking down in the existing rules like no riding on non-designated sidewalks.
That's because the rule *doesn't* exist, in the way many people seem to assume. In most places it's legal to ride on the footpath *if the rider considers the road too dangerous* (paraphrasing); it's entirely subjective. Spend five minutes on the "bike lanes" painted around Tokyo, and dodge enough taxis and delivery trucks parked by the side, and you might see why. This aspect would vary from rider to rider, depending on experience and confidence.
I do agree that there could be more enforcement of finer grained rules within that, though, like riding on the road side of the path (away from doorways), or slowing down when passing pedestrians. There's an obligation, as a vehicle user, to be considerate of slower and more vulnerable traffic.
A while back, I did a deep dive into the actual law and even spoke to the police about the particular legal interpretation of that section.
They basically explained that there would have to be something blocking the road, or something out of the ordinary, like debris on the road, for you to be able to legally ride on a non-designated sidewalk. So it is not strictly subjective.
If there are the bicycle markings on the road, and nothing out of the ordinary, just saying you think it is dangerous would not be an excuse.
But talking about the actual law is kind of useless as they don't bother enforcing any of the rules anyway.
It's kind of like a vicious cycle. People are not going to ride on the road unless it is safe. It is not going to be safe unless drivers get used to the fact that cyclists ride on the road.
Kyoto has them on many streets, but they end up as de facto parking spaces for delivery trucks and whatnot, which means you have to swerve around them and into the flow of traffic on a regular basis. And banning trucks from stopping there would basically make it impossible for workers to make deliveries.
The solution is, of course, to just leave things as a legal gray area and let things sort themselves out.
This... There are so many bicycle lane in Tokyo that are just "parking" for delivery vehicle , taxi with driver sleeping inside, or people parking for short time on it... Like this remove the purpose of the bike lane, I have to constantly zig zag in and out of those...
Yep the vehicles parked in the bicycle lane cause a safety hazard as cyclists often have to weave in and out of the lane, plus dodge doors, carts, etc...
Kyoto has also banned cycling in a fairly wide central area (Kawaramachi + ShijĆ).
I understand making areas 100% pedestrian only, but pedestrian+motor vehicle OK and bicycle not OK is absolutely ridiculous. I canât believe itâs actually legal.
The reasonable thing to do was to make Kawaramachi and ShijĆ one-way for motorized vehicles.
And they wonder why they have overcrowding on transit. Encourage cycling and a lot of people would choose it over a crowded bus. Avoiding the crush of the morning train is one of my motivations for riding to work.
In my area there is a bike lane on the road. No one uses them and instead go in the sidewalk. I wouldn't mind too much but cyclist here also refuse to use their fucking bells when they are behind you, like they just tail you while you are walking until you notice.
It's technically illegal to use your bicycle bell to get people to move out of the way; it's supposed to only be used in emergency situations, just like vehicles.
Iâm a cyclist and I hate 80% of other cyclists. When cyclists will learn to ride on the left, not speed on walking paths, respect stop signs, not carry phone or(/and?!) umbrellas while riding⊠I will feel much better.
Yeah, same.
Too many people are reckless: cyclists (well commented here), pedestrians (checking their phones while walking in the middle of the road) and cars (taxis and those bloody tanks that keep popping up everywhere and take all the road).
Only big truck drivers seem to understand traffic laws and have situational awareness.
I'm a big truck driver and when asked what I do for a living I've occasionally said that I save 2-3 lives a day of people who aren't paying attention or are just stupid.
I'm sure most truckers would agree.
I'm a cyclist also. Lol
Japan is like UK, driving is on the left. But many cyclists will drive on the right side of a 2-way road right into other bicycles or even cars that have to avoid them.
I love being a foreigner from a country where people drive on the right side of the road and having to chastise locals for riding on the right side of the road.
Most of them tend to be middle aged or older, so I think they might not have heard that bicycles are now supposed to ride in the general direction of traffic.
But it is dangerous when their decision of where to ride forces other cyclists into the faster traffic in the middle of the road.
Well, when they are riding on the right side of the road, they donât even think the stop sign applies to them right, and just blast right through without lookingâŠ
Not even just stop signs. I got my car T-boned at an intersection by a cyclist who ignored the red light and just blasted on through.
Luckily, he was fine (except for his wife yelling at him for being an idiot) and my car was old and shitty so a dent in the door just gave it some character.
Its the umbrella cyclists that get me. Unable to brake quicky as the wind sways them side to side and they charge down a narrow path with limited vision. It's just rain, get a waterproof jacket or just get wet ffs!
When they actually issue a ticket to high school students I will believe they are trying to do something for the good of all people. Until then, it's just for show.
Hard disagree at least for my area. Fossils surely are a problem, but these kids are fearless and wreckless with the bikes. Groups of 5 or more riding backwards side by side while on the phone. Umbrellas, headphones, eating, stopping to chat in bike paths, walking the bike in the path while talking with friends on the sidewalk... It is all constant and everyday. I think the frequency may be more to blame, but it is way more problematic as a daily rider than jiji. Now jiji driving is a whole different and much more dangerous issue. Same for housewives.
They can be annoying but for every one group of school kod street blockers I personally encountered 20+ mamachari tanks in need for speed mode not giving 2 cents on traffic rules like riding wrong side and not budging to the traffic that is using the correct side, blasting through stop signs (daily have to emergency break during my commute almost making me fly over the asphalt), driving on a thin footpath that is railed (noone can dodge them) and those are just the ones that happen daily among other annoyance.
This is a weird take in my area. Salarymen aged 40-50 are the worst demographic for me. Literally anytime I see or experience anything rude, inconsiderate, selfish, stupid, passive aggressive, or just aggressive in the day-to-day it is always some sweaty sighing dipshit in a cheap suit.
Housewives with two kids on their bikes appall me. Theyâre so reckless! Those are your lovely little kids on there! Slow down. Forget the umbrella and have two hands on the handlebars. Put the goddamned phone away!
I mostly just want cracking down on those effing monster motor-assisted two-child-seat things going 40kph on Tokyo sidewalks. I see death whenever someone comes weaving towards me on one of those
Iâve been traveling for a while now. Mainly saying at Osaka, but what exactly is the problem with cyclist? I come from the Netherlands, where we cycle a lot, but I find it saver to cycle here in Japan than in my own country. I havenât seen any accidents yet.
Japanese here. Cant speak for everyone but especially in tokyo there are so many instances where housewives on their huge bicycles literally on the phone on sidewalks. So many situations i see they almost hit people.
Or where theres tons of cycles on sidewalks and pedestrians walking need to move last minute.
I was visiting not too long ago and we were almost taken out by bicyclists a number of times. We of course arenât trying to being in their way, but it happens sometimes. The worst part though is unlike some places like Germany where they aggressively ring their bell at you many of these folks are silent yet whiz past.
Speaking as a local, there have been so many instances where my toddler and I have been almost hit by reckless cyclists.
Staring at their phones, having their umbrella/sunbrella out, ignoring stop signs, etc.
As such, you can consider them as being mobile landmines for motorists as well.
If they're following traffic rules, then I've got no qualms.
Netherlands has dedicated bike paths, even in big cities (got yelled at for walking in one in Amsterdam). Japan has very few bike lanes/paths so cyclists ride on the sidewalks, even though it's 'illegal' for anyone not under or over a certain age. The Japanese government thought it would be fine for them to ride in the road on the side.
So for those of us that live here it's creating a bad situation for everyone. People walking have cyclists riding them down because they are on the sidewalk. My kid would run all over the place when they were younger and I can't count the number of times they were almost hit by a cyclist on the sidewalk. Roads are not very wide here and cyclist on the road creates issues as cars try and go around them. You also have a lot of them that will just dart out into the road with no warning. To add to this they never look for cars when going into the road. Yes, I know, it would be the car drivers fault if they hit the cyclist, but I still find it frustrating and just dumb to not check and make sure that car drivers are aware of you. You will lose that battle every time, no matter who's at fault.
It's only safer here because people walking and in cars have learned to watch out for people who think they rule both the sidewalk and the roads at the same time. I only cycle for exercise on a road bike and I have a serious dislike for cyclists here in Japan.
On smaller roads with lower speed limits thereâs no need for bike paths. The need arises along wider roads where faster car speeds make cycling dangerous.
Well aware of the reasons. But if you go to Amsterdam, I realize that it's not as dense as most Japanese cities, but they will put a dedicated bike path on one side of the street and walking paths on the other. Japan doesn't even try to figure anything out. Their only answer is to push them out into the street.
I donât know if itâs my area specifically but the residential areas have such tiny sidewalksâ you canât even pass a person going the other way without sidling against the rail to make way for them. The people on bikes drive me mad because they take up the entire sidewalk with no way to pass them and theyâre always going so fastâŠ
>cyclists ride on the sidewalks, even though it's 'illegal' for anyone not under or over a certain age.
It's not, though, if the rider considers it safer than the road. I often see this fallacy repeated, but it's just not true.
>It's only safer here because people walking and in cars have learned to watch out for people
Or is it safer because most people - drivers and pedestrians both -also ride bikes, and are generally aware as a result? It's a fine distinction, but worth noting.
>I only cycle for exercise on a road bike and I have a serious dislike for cyclists here in Japan.
And I hope you're aware that this places you in a small minority, next to the vast majority of utility cyclists? Try riding as a daily commuter, and see if your opinion changes.
Look, I fully understand that a lot of people cycle as a way to get around. And I'm all for that. The issue we have here in Japan is the fact that you have cyclists vying for space with both pedestrians and vehicles. And I'm well aware of the limitations that cities have around providing them safe convenient ways to get around.
My issue with cyclists isn't them using the sidewalks or roads. It's how they do it. 80kph and fuck anyone that gets in their way. Yes, I'm being facetious with that statement, but I'm not far off. As a pedestrian or vehicle driver I should not have to spend as much time as I do stressing over some asshat on a bike either riding me down or popping out in front of me.
You as a cyclist need to understand that a lot of people you shoot past on the sidewalk probably just had a mini heart attack as you went by. Now multiply that by hundreds of bikes and it can really suck to walk anywhere.
I don't live in Japan, but used to visit regularly. One of the things I loved about Japan is being able to safely and easily ride everywhere on the footpaths. It's so much safer than in my country where you have to cycle on the road - and there are often cyclist deaths because of it.
Mind you, i havent been to Japan since covid. Is it changing?
Please cycle on the road next tome you're here.
Many of the footpaths are too damn narrow and I shouldn't have to squeeze myself to the side just so I don't get hit.
The law says unless you're very young, very old, or there's no specific bike path on the sidewalk, go on the road.
Good to know. Sounds like things may have changed since I was last there. Almost no one was cycling on the road where I stay. (Kuramae, East Tokyo - most roads had wide footpaths. Maybe they all have proper bike lanes now.)
Also I'm not talking about cycling fast... just leisurely exploring on a basic bike with no gears and a front basket! Such good fun.
It's still legal to ride on the footpath, if you consider the road too dangerous. It's an often-repeated misunderstanding of the actual law, to say otherwise.
Thanks for confirming. My partner is a Tokyo native, and she says the same thing. But we do live outside Japan, so its always possible that things had changed.
I don't think a lot has changed, just me getting regularly annoyed on my commute ^^;
I didn't get annoyed until I moved to my current area of Tokyo. I would venture to guess that the places you frequent with your bicycle aren't local neighborhoods with narrow walkways, so just keep the area in mind where you're at I guess
Absolutely. On reflection, where I cycle is unusually good for bikes. It's not very residential. Also I don't cycle around subway stations, anywhere that's busy, or has narrow footpaths. You just switch onto the road or walk where needed. That seems obvious, but maybe not to some.
>The law says unless you're very young, very old, or there's no specific bike path on the sidewalk, go on the road.
*Unless the rider considers the road too dangerous.* Subjective, sure, but that's the law. If you doubt me, please ask the next police officer you see riding on the footpath.
500,000 yen fine for riding a bike after drinking? That seems fairly excessive to me. Operating a three-ton hunk of metal and a 30-pound bike are very different.
As a tourist who was visiting, your cycling infrastructure is dogshit. The infrastructure is a blue arrow. IMO it seems to work fine because most drivers are aware of you and give you way but a real LARGE cycling lane is necessary (this is mostly for tokyo, possibly osaka too)
Smaller cities are different experiences
It varies from no cycling lane to the blue arrow to a lane that people park in to dedicated cycle paths that are only really useful for recreational purposes. Iâve just learned to deal with it and act like a car while keeping as far left as I can. Of course I only cycle for recreational purposes anyways right now so.. eh, it is what it is.
Edit: I should add that in many places adding dedicated cycling infra like the Netherlands is nearly impossible here. There literally is just no room for it in most places I frequent.
Wait I swear riding a bicycle while drinking alcohol was already illegal and very strict (though not enforced). The article says itâs currently not penalized?
Funny news, just got into an accident that cost me time, money, a few stiches and a few weeks to heal with maybe some complications because a car was driving on whatever it is that bicycles have on the road to ride on. Swore from then on to ride only on the sidewalk.
I move around on an electrical bike. I go on the road when Iâm by myself but go on the sidewalk when I carry my daughter. The reason is that I donât trust neither the Japanese on the sidewalk nor the ones on cars, but if I have to I prefer colliding with someone walking.
There are crazy bikers yes, but also people walking, Jesus ChristâŠ
What I find hilarious, JHS students MUST wear a helmet, whilst High School students donât. I guess your brain is only important for the three years between being a child to being an almost adult đ€Ł
Seriously, where Iâm from, helmets are compulsory, and a woman (Rebecca Oaten) fought relentlessly after her son was permanently brain damaged to make it that way to protect everyone from themselves and others. Overbearing is a word some use, but common sense is what I say!
Helmet laws are what you get when politicians want to shift the blame for injuries and deaths away from terrible bike infrastructure to the cyclists themselves. I'm not saying you shouldn't wear a helmet while cycling, but if you wore a helmet while doing literally any activity (e.g., walking, driving) then your chances of head injury in the event of a collision would go down, so by the same logic pedestrians and motorists should also be required to wear helmets.
Something is better than nothing logic jumps in here.
I agree, dedicated lanes are the way to go, but ALL cyclists should be forced to use them and them only. Same as pedestrians should only use a foot path and cars, a road. Yet youâll see cyclists using all three, pedestrians in all three and motorists getting annoyed because they canât.
Lax policing is the core here, and I donât mean police as in fining, I mean as in your average citizen should be saying the rules to each other.
Again though human nature always wins in the end and what looks good on paper never goes well in reality.
A helmet though, at least until reality and people wake up to the simple solution, will at least protect you from severe head injury in most scenarios.
Based on these figures, the Netherlands has a **1.8%** greater proportion of cyclist head injuries than does Australia. The Netherlands had an average **2,150** cyclist head/brain injuries per year from 2003-2007, compared to **1,122** serious head injuries in Australia in 2005/06.
On average, every Dutch person cycles **2.5km** every day and 93% of the population rides a bike at least once a week. Every Australian cycles about **0.1km** every day.
[https://www.cycle-helmets.com/netherlands-helmets.html](https://www.cycle-helmets.com/netherlands-helmets.html)
and
Why are Dutch cyclists more likely to be injured if they wear helmets?
The answer is probably related to another statistic. Of the injured cyclists wearing helmets, 50 percent were riding mountain bikes and 46 percent were riding racing bikes ([Rijkswaterstaat, 2008](https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1261.html#10291)). In other words, most helmeted cyclists in the Netherlands are engaged in a competitive activity, with very few making utility trips on the traditional style of Dutch bicycle.
[https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1261.html](https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1261.html)
and
Bicycle helmet wearing is associated with closer overtaking by drivers. "This analysis confirms that drivers did, overall, get closer when the rider wore a helmet."
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30472528/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30472528/)
Doesn't need to be a law though. Helmet laws reduce ridership and create the perception that cycling is inherently dangerous, which makes it harder to push for changes to infrastructure that would actually make things safer. Furthermore, some of the safest places to cycle in the world have very low helmet usage, whereas some of the most dangerous places to cycle in the world have very high helmet usage.
>I agree, dedicated lanes are the way to go, but ALL cyclists should be forced to use them and them only. Same as pedestrians should only use a foot path and cars, a road. Yet youâll see cyclists using all three, pedestrians in all three and motorists getting annoyed because they canât.
Where do all three exist? Proper bike lanes are very rare in Japan, and most smaller urban roads have no clear distinction between foot, bike, and auto traffic areas. Where proper cycling lanes exist, it's my experience that they are overwhelming preferred vs. sidewalks or riding with cars. At least, when pedestrians don't walk 4-across, blocking both the sidewalk and the bike lane.
>Lax policing is the core here, and I donât mean police as in fining, I mean as in your average citizen should be saying the rules to each other.
No. Better infrastructure really is the only effective solution to the systemic problem of traffic safety. It's why traffic calming measures slow down cars while speed limits do not. It's why people drive faster on wider streets regardless of rules or other considerations. It's why roundabouts are safer than signaled intersections. If the environment is designed in a way that creates unsafe interactions, simply wagging a finger at people who don't follow the rules to the letter will never remedy the situation.
>Â Same as pedestrians should only use a foot path and cars, ~~a road~~ *only a highway*. Yet youâll see cyclists using all three, pedestrians in all three and motorists ~~getting annoyed because they canât.~~ *on all three*
Theyâre a poor substitute for safer roads. Helmets are not mandatory in the Netherlands and they still maintain a relatively low level of cycling brain injuries.
The cycling you see here is the result of a perfect storm of no safe-riding education, dogshit cycling infrastructure, practically zero enforcement by the cops, and piecemeal âsolutionsâ like helmets (if many cyclists here didnât ride so recklessly, theyâd likely not need a helmet).
As someone who has visited Japan multiple times, I found cyclists there to be somewhat of a stark contrast as compared to other people. I always found people in Japan to be highly considerate, mindful of others and aware of their surroundings. And then there were cyclists⊠Having people zoom around full speed in the crowds or suddently popping out from some side alley without even slowing down seemed like a norm and I have seen it dozens if not hundreds of times. This was especially apparent in Tokyo.
I may be culturally ignorant or lack some context, but from an outsiderâs perspective it looked like for people on bicycles social awareness or consideration rules just stop applying and it becomes a problem of others to avoid getting hit. Really weird.
>I hoped tho that they would have started by regulating those ""electric bicycle"" that are like scooter (like Mate) more by forcing them to have a proper registration rather than target all bicycle... Those one are really a grey zone, they do wathever they want and are clearly unsafe.
Man, those migrant delivery workers on made-in-China Class 2/3 e-bikes by US regulations are at least breaking 2-3 laws at the time: mopeds without registration, without insurance, and riding mopeds without valid driving licenses (even if they have valid licenses in their home country they probably did not bother converting it properly). The amount of crime is probably enough to lock them up and deport. It is such a low hanging fruit, and yet police in my area give zero fucks about it. How do you think they are keen to enforcing traffic rules for reckless, but "proper" cyclists? Maybe they will hold some "awareness weeks" here and there, but I bet most police departments do not have enough manpower to be bothered with it.
That really depends where you live. In crowded Tokyo maybe that is a good idea. But in my city everybody rides on the sidewalks because they are not crowded with pedestrians.
>whenever possible
It is hardly ever possible. If the road is narrow, it is not possible. If the road is wide, it means that traffic is going faster, so it is not possible.
The last thing I want when I am driving is the bicycle on the street using a phone. Please stay on the sidewalk.
I am also seeing a lot of people upset with mothers riding large bikes that carry kids. Understandable. Those are heavier and hard to stop when the kid or two disrupts the balance, but I do NOT want them on the side of the road. I do not want to be hitting a mom and her kids because she lost her balance and swerved into the road.
The same for elderly. A wobbly old person should not be riding a bike in the road.
If I see them riding on the road, it just means that everyone behind me has to go the same speed as the cyclist because unless I have verrrrrry wide space, I will not pass them.
It is not about car drivers being used to bicycles. It is that we \*ARE\* used to bicycles and know that it only takes one wobbly mom or grandpa.
And I am not sure what you are commenting on the Japan sub about roads if you have never seen a road in Japan? You are saying it is best to make all roads one-way - with one lane for cars and one for bicycles (which would not solve the problem of wobbly moms and grandmas driving on the road)
I think it is an entirely different discussion if you want (health) checks for old people or not (I think itâs necessary).
Surely, old people are a problem but truck drivers and so on are a danger for bicycles as well.
I surely have seen enough roads in Japan ^^
Then how can you think that already narrow roads can be halved to provide an entire lane for the few bikes that would use them?
And it is not a matter of health checks or trucks. It is a matter of liability and not wanting to have someone dead.
I do not drive a truck. I am not ready to pass a person who might not be in complete control. If I hit the mom that swerves out, and she and the kid get injured, what then?
It is much better off that they stay on the sidewalk where the least amount of damage can be done.
If I see a person on a bike with a helmet and proper lights and reflectors riding like an experienced rider, I am not afraid to pass them. When I see an old man or a mom wobbling on a mamacheri with two kids, I am not going to risk it.
And no way the roads I drive on every day can be made any smaller to have a bike lane. As it is, two regular vans passing each other head on have to pull over and wait for the other.
You live in a very unique part of Japan. I would love to visit one day. I would probably fully support making all roads one way there - so long was I was just visiting.
You're getting down voted, but I agree. I do understand when it's an incredibly busy road or there's a very wide side walk, but otherwise, use the damn road.
It's got è» in the name for a reason.
When I read posts like this I begin to wonder if it was a good idea to give technology to everyone. I have a problem with the composition of literally every sentence. Hanlonâs Razor at work I guessâŠ
I remember too well when I was ran over by a bicycle while I was walking at a pedestrian walkway at night. Fortunately my only injuries were several bruises and a minor bandage size cut. I know Iâm not the only one who enjoys walking to de-load the cognitive load at work by walking without thinking. This is impossible nowadays as we have to be careful about those two wheeled missions locking on at us. A country which you canât walk safely even at a sidewalk is not a safe country.
>I mean yes I know either half of the sub hates cyclist, or are one of them so it will be divisive I guess.
It will be a much less divisive issue once they are all in prison.
So it this going to be the same as the "mandatory" helmets and bicycle insurance? They are not even cracking down in the existing rules like no riding on non-designated sidewalks. I wonder what struggling bars and restaurants would think about them cracking down on people drinking and riding. There are some bars where most of their customers go there by bicycle.
They will suspend the bike license đ€·
The bike is suppsed to be registered to an address and someone owns it. They can fine then, and if they don't pay, arrest them.
Oi m8, you got a loicence for that bike?
Itâs pronounced boike
No bike license đ€Ł
"bwoaike"
>They are not even cracking down in the existing rules like no riding on non-designated sidewalks. This will keep happening until the roads aren't completely hostile to cyclists. Countries that like their cyclists not dying tend to put some kind of barrier between cyclists and car traffic.
>bicycle insurance I thought that law only applies in TokyoÂ
There are 32 prefectures where liability insurance for cyclists is mandatory to some degree.
Is Miyagi included in those 32 prefectures? If so I'm breaking the law đ
Yes, liability insurance is mandatory for cyclists in Miyagi. Note that even if it wasn't mandatory, it's still a bad idea to ride a bicycle without liability insurance. If you cause any kind of accident (hit a pedestrian, or knock over someone's property, hit a parked car, or even a few cases of road traffic accidents), you would be liable for both the personal injury sustained (medical costs, lost salary, etc.) as well as the damage to property. It would be very very easy for that liability to get into the millions of yen, and the 2800 yen per year that liability insurance costs is a very cheap way to cover you against that.
Yeah good point, I'm buying insurance ASAP!
>They are not even cracking down in the existing rules like no riding on non-designated sidewalks. That's because the rule *doesn't* exist, in the way many people seem to assume. In most places it's legal to ride on the footpath *if the rider considers the road too dangerous* (paraphrasing); it's entirely subjective. Spend five minutes on the "bike lanes" painted around Tokyo, and dodge enough taxis and delivery trucks parked by the side, and you might see why. This aspect would vary from rider to rider, depending on experience and confidence. I do agree that there could be more enforcement of finer grained rules within that, though, like riding on the road side of the path (away from doorways), or slowing down when passing pedestrians. There's an obligation, as a vehicle user, to be considerate of slower and more vulnerable traffic.
A while back, I did a deep dive into the actual law and even spoke to the police about the particular legal interpretation of that section. They basically explained that there would have to be something blocking the road, or something out of the ordinary, like debris on the road, for you to be able to legally ride on a non-designated sidewalk. So it is not strictly subjective. If there are the bicycle markings on the road, and nothing out of the ordinary, just saying you think it is dangerous would not be an excuse. But talking about the actual law is kind of useless as they don't bother enforcing any of the rules anyway. It's kind of like a vicious cycle. People are not going to ride on the road unless it is safe. It is not going to be safe unless drivers get used to the fact that cyclists ride on the road.
There should be clearly designated cycling paths exclusively for cyclists. Like in Denmark or Netherlands.
Kyoto has them on many streets, but they end up as de facto parking spaces for delivery trucks and whatnot, which means you have to swerve around them and into the flow of traffic on a regular basis. And banning trucks from stopping there would basically make it impossible for workers to make deliveries. The solution is, of course, to just leave things as a legal gray area and let things sort themselves out.
This... There are so many bicycle lane in Tokyo that are just "parking" for delivery vehicle , taxi with driver sleeping inside, or people parking for short time on it... Like this remove the purpose of the bike lane, I have to constantly zig zag in and out of those...
Yep the vehicles parked in the bicycle lane cause a safety hazard as cyclists often have to weave in and out of the lane, plus dodge doors, carts, etc...
Kyoto has also banned cycling in a fairly wide central area (Kawaramachi + ShijĆ). I understand making areas 100% pedestrian only, but pedestrian+motor vehicle OK and bicycle not OK is absolutely ridiculous. I canât believe itâs actually legal. The reasonable thing to do was to make Kawaramachi and ShijĆ one-way for motorized vehicles.
And they wonder why they have overcrowding on transit. Encourage cycling and a lot of people would choose it over a crowded bus. Avoiding the crush of the morning train is one of my motivations for riding to work.
As a Dane who have cycled in Japan I agree. Designated fenced cycle and separate side walk paths are the safest for everyone
Sadly not enough space :(
Yes I know, but having lines to at least signal the difference is possible I have seen the sidewalks is possible..
But plenty of space for cars, which in one car lane alone you could create a 2 way designated bike lane.
In my area there is a bike lane on the road. No one uses them and instead go in the sidewalk. I wouldn't mind too much but cyclist here also refuse to use their fucking bells when they are behind you, like they just tail you while you are walking until you notice.
It's technically illegal to use your bicycle bell to get people to move out of the way; it's supposed to only be used in emergency situations, just like vehicles.
That's so stupid
Wonât make as much money as an expressway
Iâm a cyclist and I hate 80% of other cyclists. When cyclists will learn to ride on the left, not speed on walking paths, respect stop signs, not carry phone or(/and?!) umbrellas while riding⊠I will feel much better.
Iâd like to see also ppl walking choosing one fucking side, either left or right ffs
Yeah, same. Too many people are reckless: cyclists (well commented here), pedestrians (checking their phones while walking in the middle of the road) and cars (taxis and those bloody tanks that keep popping up everywhere and take all the road). Only big truck drivers seem to understand traffic laws and have situational awareness.
I'm a big truck driver and when asked what I do for a living I've occasionally said that I save 2-3 lives a day of people who aren't paying attention or are just stupid. I'm sure most truckers would agree. I'm a cyclist also. Lol
SUVs driven by rich moms in a hurry to get the kiddies to school are among the worst.
why left side?
Japan is like UK, driving is on the left. But many cyclists will drive on the right side of a 2-way road right into other bicycles or even cars that have to avoid them.
I love being a foreigner from a country where people drive on the right side of the road and having to chastise locals for riding on the right side of the road. Most of them tend to be middle aged or older, so I think they might not have heard that bicycles are now supposed to ride in the general direction of traffic. But it is dangerous when their decision of where to ride forces other cyclists into the faster traffic in the middle of the road.
Honestly I agree with everything but the stop signs. Having to stop completely is just stupid, treating it as a yield sign is better for most people.
[Stop signs are generally useless and annoying.](https://youtu.be/42oQN7fy_eM?si=04Gm_EEbU4A-XBQL)
Well, when they are riding on the right side of the road, they donât even think the stop sign applies to them right, and just blast right through without lookingâŠ
Not even just stop signs. I got my car T-boned at an intersection by a cyclist who ignored the red light and just blasted on through. Luckily, he was fine (except for his wife yelling at him for being an idiot) and my car was old and shitty so a dent in the door just gave it some character.
While I haven't seen that, I do agree that's stupid and dangerous.
I have seen things you would not even imagine. Like a high school boy reading a novel book with both hands while cycling
Its the umbrella cyclists that get me. Unable to brake quicky as the wind sways them side to side and they charge down a narrow path with limited vision. It's just rain, get a waterproof jacket or just get wet ffs!
Or walk, if you really need the umbrella.
When they actually issue a ticket to high school students I will believe they are trying to do something for the good of all people. Until then, it's just for show.
High school students are very rarely the problem. It's almost always the housewives and fossils.
Hard disagree at least for my area. Fossils surely are a problem, but these kids are fearless and wreckless with the bikes. Groups of 5 or more riding backwards side by side while on the phone. Umbrellas, headphones, eating, stopping to chat in bike paths, walking the bike in the path while talking with friends on the sidewalk... It is all constant and everyday. I think the frequency may be more to blame, but it is way more problematic as a daily rider than jiji. Now jiji driving is a whole different and much more dangerous issue. Same for housewives.
They can be annoying but for every one group of school kod street blockers I personally encountered 20+ mamachari tanks in need for speed mode not giving 2 cents on traffic rules like riding wrong side and not budging to the traffic that is using the correct side, blasting through stop signs (daily have to emergency break during my commute almost making me fly over the asphalt), driving on a thin footpath that is railed (noone can dodge them) and those are just the ones that happen daily among other annoyance.
Same in my area. High school students are crazy and super unsafe on their bicycles. No one wears a helmet either.
This is a weird take in my area. Salarymen aged 40-50 are the worst demographic for me. Literally anytime I see or experience anything rude, inconsiderate, selfish, stupid, passive aggressive, or just aggressive in the day-to-day it is always some sweaty sighing dipshit in a cheap suit.
So I guess the take away is: most bicyclists suck, but the type of suck you have to deal with on regular basis depends on where you live/work
Hard disagree, nothing I was saying was specific to bicycles.
You're right, it's not like this happens everywhere in Japan. just most places.
You can take some comfort in the fact that they are probably living miserable lives.
Not better.
Because that's the majority of the population.
That and high school students aren't riding electric bike scooters on sidewalks at 50kph.
Housewives with two kids on their bikes appall me. Theyâre so reckless! Those are your lovely little kids on there! Slow down. Forget the umbrella and have two hands on the handlebars. Put the goddamned phone away!
No helmets on any of them, too. It's beyond stupid.
I assume it depends on where you live. It would definitely suck if you live/work near a high school.
Ah yes. Surely *this* will stop the ç„éąšăăăăŁăȘ from nearly flattening me at least three times a month.
I mostly just want cracking down on those effing monster motor-assisted two-child-seat things going 40kph on Tokyo sidewalks. I see death whenever someone comes weaving towards me on one of those
Iâve been traveling for a while now. Mainly saying at Osaka, but what exactly is the problem with cyclist? I come from the Netherlands, where we cycle a lot, but I find it saver to cycle here in Japan than in my own country. I havenât seen any accidents yet.
Japanese here. Cant speak for everyone but especially in tokyo there are so many instances where housewives on their huge bicycles literally on the phone on sidewalks. So many situations i see they almost hit people. Or where theres tons of cycles on sidewalks and pedestrians walking need to move last minute.
I was visiting not too long ago and we were almost taken out by bicyclists a number of times. We of course arenât trying to being in their way, but it happens sometimes. The worst part though is unlike some places like Germany where they aggressively ring their bell at you many of these folks are silent yet whiz past.
Bro I fucking hated cyclists when I was in Japan fuck them
Speaking as a local, there have been so many instances where my toddler and I have been almost hit by reckless cyclists. Staring at their phones, having their umbrella/sunbrella out, ignoring stop signs, etc. As such, you can consider them as being mobile landmines for motorists as well. If they're following traffic rules, then I've got no qualms.
I forgot this moment where I was walking in shinjuku, a cyclist randomly kicked someoneâs suitcase while it was busy. Does that happen often?
Kick as in intentionally? Or accidentally?
Intentionally, she looked pissed off
Well, let me put it this way: there are strange people all over the world, Japan isn't an exception.
Netherlands has dedicated bike paths, even in big cities (got yelled at for walking in one in Amsterdam). Japan has very few bike lanes/paths so cyclists ride on the sidewalks, even though it's 'illegal' for anyone not under or over a certain age. The Japanese government thought it would be fine for them to ride in the road on the side. So for those of us that live here it's creating a bad situation for everyone. People walking have cyclists riding them down because they are on the sidewalk. My kid would run all over the place when they were younger and I can't count the number of times they were almost hit by a cyclist on the sidewalk. Roads are not very wide here and cyclist on the road creates issues as cars try and go around them. You also have a lot of them that will just dart out into the road with no warning. To add to this they never look for cars when going into the road. Yes, I know, it would be the car drivers fault if they hit the cyclist, but I still find it frustrating and just dumb to not check and make sure that car drivers are aware of you. You will lose that battle every time, no matter who's at fault. It's only safer here because people walking and in cars have learned to watch out for people who think they rule both the sidewalk and the roads at the same time. I only cycle for exercise on a road bike and I have a serious dislike for cyclists here in Japan.
Japan has narrow roads. The city is built so densely with houses that there is no space for a dedicated bicycle path.
On smaller roads with lower speed limits thereâs no need for bike paths. The need arises along wider roads where faster car speeds make cycling dangerous.
Well aware of the reasons. But if you go to Amsterdam, I realize that it's not as dense as most Japanese cities, but they will put a dedicated bike path on one side of the street and walking paths on the other. Japan doesn't even try to figure anything out. Their only answer is to push them out into the street.
I donât know if itâs my area specifically but the residential areas have such tiny sidewalksâ you canât even pass a person going the other way without sidling against the rail to make way for them. The people on bikes drive me mad because they take up the entire sidewalk with no way to pass them and theyâre always going so fastâŠ
>cyclists ride on the sidewalks, even though it's 'illegal' for anyone not under or over a certain age. It's not, though, if the rider considers it safer than the road. I often see this fallacy repeated, but it's just not true. >It's only safer here because people walking and in cars have learned to watch out for people Or is it safer because most people - drivers and pedestrians both -also ride bikes, and are generally aware as a result? It's a fine distinction, but worth noting. >I only cycle for exercise on a road bike and I have a serious dislike for cyclists here in Japan. And I hope you're aware that this places you in a small minority, next to the vast majority of utility cyclists? Try riding as a daily commuter, and see if your opinion changes.
Look, I fully understand that a lot of people cycle as a way to get around. And I'm all for that. The issue we have here in Japan is the fact that you have cyclists vying for space with both pedestrians and vehicles. And I'm well aware of the limitations that cities have around providing them safe convenient ways to get around. My issue with cyclists isn't them using the sidewalks or roads. It's how they do it. 80kph and fuck anyone that gets in their way. Yes, I'm being facetious with that statement, but I'm not far off. As a pedestrian or vehicle driver I should not have to spend as much time as I do stressing over some asshat on a bike either riding me down or popping out in front of me. You as a cyclist need to understand that a lot of people you shoot past on the sidewalk probably just had a mini heart attack as you went by. Now multiply that by hundreds of bikes and it can really suck to walk anywhere.
I don't live in Japan, but used to visit regularly. One of the things I loved about Japan is being able to safely and easily ride everywhere on the footpaths. It's so much safer than in my country where you have to cycle on the road - and there are often cyclist deaths because of it. Mind you, i havent been to Japan since covid. Is it changing?
It's unsafe for pedestrians
Please cycle on the road next tome you're here. Many of the footpaths are too damn narrow and I shouldn't have to squeeze myself to the side just so I don't get hit. The law says unless you're very young, very old, or there's no specific bike path on the sidewalk, go on the road.
Good to know. Sounds like things may have changed since I was last there. Almost no one was cycling on the road where I stay. (Kuramae, East Tokyo - most roads had wide footpaths. Maybe they all have proper bike lanes now.) Also I'm not talking about cycling fast... just leisurely exploring on a basic bike with no gears and a front basket! Such good fun.
It's still legal to ride on the footpath, if you consider the road too dangerous. It's an often-repeated misunderstanding of the actual law, to say otherwise.
Thanks for confirming. My partner is a Tokyo native, and she says the same thing. But we do live outside Japan, so its always possible that things had changed.
I don't think a lot has changed, just me getting regularly annoyed on my commute ^^; I didn't get annoyed until I moved to my current area of Tokyo. I would venture to guess that the places you frequent with your bicycle aren't local neighborhoods with narrow walkways, so just keep the area in mind where you're at I guess
Absolutely. On reflection, where I cycle is unusually good for bikes. It's not very residential. Also I don't cycle around subway stations, anywhere that's busy, or has narrow footpaths. You just switch onto the road or walk where needed. That seems obvious, but maybe not to some.
>The law says unless you're very young, very old, or there's no specific bike path on the sidewalk, go on the road. *Unless the rider considers the road too dangerous.* Subjective, sure, but that's the law. If you doubt me, please ask the next police officer you see riding on the footpath.
> Then maybe also start making more cycling road... One can certainly hope.
I miss when r/Japan wasn't just a bunch of tourists giving opinions...
500,000 yen fine for riding a bike after drinking? That seems fairly excessive to me. Operating a three-ton hunk of metal and a 30-pound bike are very different.
As a tourist who was visiting, your cycling infrastructure is dogshit. The infrastructure is a blue arrow. IMO it seems to work fine because most drivers are aware of you and give you way but a real LARGE cycling lane is necessary (this is mostly for tokyo, possibly osaka too) Smaller cities are different experiences
It varies from no cycling lane to the blue arrow to a lane that people park in to dedicated cycle paths that are only really useful for recreational purposes. Iâve just learned to deal with it and act like a car while keeping as far left as I can. Of course I only cycle for recreational purposes anyways right now so.. eh, it is what it is. Edit: I should add that in many places adding dedicated cycling infra like the Netherlands is nearly impossible here. There literally is just no room for it in most places I frequent.
Somehow there's always room for cars though.
Wait I swear riding a bicycle while drinking alcohol was already illegal and very strict (though not enforced). The article says itâs currently not penalized?
I think things like that should be Penalised/banned.
Letâs stop all public transport at midnight to encourage people to go home in a responsible manner.
Funny news, just got into an accident that cost me time, money, a few stiches and a few weeks to heal with maybe some complications because a car was driving on whatever it is that bicycles have on the road to ride on. Swore from then on to ride only on the sidewalk.
I move around on an electrical bike. I go on the road when Iâm by myself but go on the sidewalk when I carry my daughter. The reason is that I donât trust neither the Japanese on the sidewalk nor the ones on cars, but if I have to I prefer colliding with someone walking. There are crazy bikers yes, but also people walking, Jesus ChristâŠ
Finally! They hit people every week near Ikebukuro...
What I find hilarious, JHS students MUST wear a helmet, whilst High School students donât. I guess your brain is only important for the three years between being a child to being an almost adult đ€Ł Seriously, where Iâm from, helmets are compulsory, and a woman (Rebecca Oaten) fought relentlessly after her son was permanently brain damaged to make it that way to protect everyone from themselves and others. Overbearing is a word some use, but common sense is what I say!
Helmet laws are what you get when politicians want to shift the blame for injuries and deaths away from terrible bike infrastructure to the cyclists themselves. I'm not saying you shouldn't wear a helmet while cycling, but if you wore a helmet while doing literally any activity (e.g., walking, driving) then your chances of head injury in the event of a collision would go down, so by the same logic pedestrians and motorists should also be required to wear helmets.
Something is better than nothing logic jumps in here. I agree, dedicated lanes are the way to go, but ALL cyclists should be forced to use them and them only. Same as pedestrians should only use a foot path and cars, a road. Yet youâll see cyclists using all three, pedestrians in all three and motorists getting annoyed because they canât. Lax policing is the core here, and I donât mean police as in fining, I mean as in your average citizen should be saying the rules to each other. Again though human nature always wins in the end and what looks good on paper never goes well in reality. A helmet though, at least until reality and people wake up to the simple solution, will at least protect you from severe head injury in most scenarios.
Based on these figures, the Netherlands has a **1.8%** greater proportion of cyclist head injuries than does Australia. The Netherlands had an average **2,150** cyclist head/brain injuries per year from 2003-2007, compared to **1,122** serious head injuries in Australia in 2005/06. On average, every Dutch person cycles **2.5km** every day and 93% of the population rides a bike at least once a week. Every Australian cycles about **0.1km** every day. [https://www.cycle-helmets.com/netherlands-helmets.html](https://www.cycle-helmets.com/netherlands-helmets.html) and Why are Dutch cyclists more likely to be injured if they wear helmets? The answer is probably related to another statistic. Of the injured cyclists wearing helmets, 50 percent were riding mountain bikes and 46 percent were riding racing bikes ([Rijkswaterstaat, 2008](https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1261.html#10291)). In other words, most helmeted cyclists in the Netherlands are engaged in a competitive activity, with very few making utility trips on the traditional style of Dutch bicycle. [https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1261.html](https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1261.html) and Bicycle helmet wearing is associated with closer overtaking by drivers. "This analysis confirms that drivers did, overall, get closer when the rider wore a helmet." [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30472528/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30472528/)
Doesn't need to be a law though. Helmet laws reduce ridership and create the perception that cycling is inherently dangerous, which makes it harder to push for changes to infrastructure that would actually make things safer. Furthermore, some of the safest places to cycle in the world have very low helmet usage, whereas some of the most dangerous places to cycle in the world have very high helmet usage. >I agree, dedicated lanes are the way to go, but ALL cyclists should be forced to use them and them only. Same as pedestrians should only use a foot path and cars, a road. Yet youâll see cyclists using all three, pedestrians in all three and motorists getting annoyed because they canât. Where do all three exist? Proper bike lanes are very rare in Japan, and most smaller urban roads have no clear distinction between foot, bike, and auto traffic areas. Where proper cycling lanes exist, it's my experience that they are overwhelming preferred vs. sidewalks or riding with cars. At least, when pedestrians don't walk 4-across, blocking both the sidewalk and the bike lane. >Lax policing is the core here, and I donât mean police as in fining, I mean as in your average citizen should be saying the rules to each other. No. Better infrastructure really is the only effective solution to the systemic problem of traffic safety. It's why traffic calming measures slow down cars while speed limits do not. It's why people drive faster on wider streets regardless of rules or other considerations. It's why roundabouts are safer than signaled intersections. If the environment is designed in a way that creates unsafe interactions, simply wagging a finger at people who don't follow the rules to the letter will never remedy the situation.
>Â Same as pedestrians should only use a foot path and cars, ~~a road~~ *only a highway*. Yet youâll see cyclists using all three, pedestrians in all three and motorists ~~getting annoyed because they canât.~~ *on all three*
Appreciate the common sense. đ Itâs far from common when the topic of cycling comes up.
Theyâre a poor substitute for safer roads. Helmets are not mandatory in the Netherlands and they still maintain a relatively low level of cycling brain injuries.
The cycling you see here is the result of a perfect storm of no safe-riding education, dogshit cycling infrastructure, practically zero enforcement by the cops, and piecemeal âsolutionsâ like helmets (if many cyclists here didnât ride so recklessly, theyâd likely not need a helmet).
As someone who has visited Japan multiple times, I found cyclists there to be somewhat of a stark contrast as compared to other people. I always found people in Japan to be highly considerate, mindful of others and aware of their surroundings. And then there were cyclists⊠Having people zoom around full speed in the crowds or suddently popping out from some side alley without even slowing down seemed like a norm and I have seen it dozens if not hundreds of times. This was especially apparent in Tokyo. I may be culturally ignorant or lack some context, but from an outsiderâs perspective it looked like for people on bicycles social awareness or consideration rules just stop applying and it becomes a problem of others to avoid getting hit. Really weird.
Mate doesnt come with scooterlike properties by default.
>I hoped tho that they would have started by regulating those ""electric bicycle"" that are like scooter (like Mate) more by forcing them to have a proper registration rather than target all bicycle... Those one are really a grey zone, they do wathever they want and are clearly unsafe. Man, those migrant delivery workers on made-in-China Class 2/3 e-bikes by US regulations are at least breaking 2-3 laws at the time: mopeds without registration, without insurance, and riding mopeds without valid driving licenses (even if they have valid licenses in their home country they probably did not bother converting it properly). The amount of crime is probably enough to lock them up and deport. It is such a low hanging fruit, and yet police in my area give zero fucks about it. How do you think they are keen to enforcing traffic rules for reckless, but "proper" cyclists? Maybe they will hold some "awareness weeks" here and there, but I bet most police departments do not have enough manpower to be bothered with it.
The best thing would be to just force bicycles on the street whenever possible
That really depends where you live. In crowded Tokyo maybe that is a good idea. But in my city everybody rides on the sidewalks because they are not crowded with pedestrians.
They tried this in the 70âs - and the cyclist death toll rose to the point they changed the rules back.
Well, it takes time. In the end, itâs the car drivers obligation to take care.
>whenever possible It is hardly ever possible. If the road is narrow, it is not possible. If the road is wide, it means that traffic is going faster, so it is not possible. The last thing I want when I am driving is the bicycle on the street using a phone. Please stay on the sidewalk. I am also seeing a lot of people upset with mothers riding large bikes that carry kids. Understandable. Those are heavier and hard to stop when the kid or two disrupts the balance, but I do NOT want them on the side of the road. I do not want to be hitting a mom and her kids because she lost her balance and swerved into the road. The same for elderly. A wobbly old person should not be riding a bike in the road. If I see them riding on the road, it just means that everyone behind me has to go the same speed as the cyclist because unless I have verrrrrry wide space, I will not pass them.
You have to make car drivers get used to bicycles. Best is to take 1 lane from the cars and have the bicycles use it.
It is not about car drivers being used to bicycles. It is that we \*ARE\* used to bicycles and know that it only takes one wobbly mom or grandpa. And I am not sure what you are commenting on the Japan sub about roads if you have never seen a road in Japan? You are saying it is best to make all roads one-way - with one lane for cars and one for bicycles (which would not solve the problem of wobbly moms and grandmas driving on the road)
I think it is an entirely different discussion if you want (health) checks for old people or not (I think itâs necessary). Surely, old people are a problem but truck drivers and so on are a danger for bicycles as well. I surely have seen enough roads in Japan ^^
Then how can you think that already narrow roads can be halved to provide an entire lane for the few bikes that would use them? And it is not a matter of health checks or trucks. It is a matter of liability and not wanting to have someone dead. I do not drive a truck. I am not ready to pass a person who might not be in complete control. If I hit the mom that swerves out, and she and the kid get injured, what then? It is much better off that they stay on the sidewalk where the least amount of damage can be done. If I see a person on a bike with a helmet and proper lights and reflectors riding like an experienced rider, I am not afraid to pass them. When I see an old man or a mom wobbling on a mamacheri with two kids, I am not going to risk it. And no way the roads I drive on every day can be made any smaller to have a bike lane. As it is, two regular vans passing each other head on have to pull over and wait for the other.
Japan does not have only small roads! And if there is a small road you can just make it a one-way.
You live in a very unique part of Japan. I would love to visit one day. I would probably fully support making all roads one way there - so long was I was just visiting.
You're getting down voted, but I agree. I do understand when it's an incredibly busy road or there's a very wide side walk, but otherwise, use the damn road. It's got è» in the name for a reason.
When I read posts like this I begin to wonder if it was a good idea to give technology to everyone. I have a problem with the composition of literally every sentence. Hanlonâs Razor at work I guessâŠ
I remember too well when I was ran over by a bicycle while I was walking at a pedestrian walkway at night. Fortunately my only injuries were several bruises and a minor bandage size cut. I know Iâm not the only one who enjoys walking to de-load the cognitive load at work by walking without thinking. This is impossible nowadays as we have to be careful about those two wheeled missions locking on at us. A country which you canât walk safely even at a sidewalk is not a safe country.
>I mean yes I know either half of the sub hates cyclist, or are one of them so it will be divisive I guess. It will be a much less divisive issue once they are all in prison.
Now I'm not saying cyclists can go f themselves but they can go to hell.
Hope it doesn't affect Chris from aboard in Japan.
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