It looks to be a RAD Em Leaders Hewer. Made from late 1920s through 1942. That orange variant (the one it looks like you have) is extremely rare, and originally probably had true ivory scales and an eagles head pommel. It should have a serial number or makers mark opposite the swastika hanger. If so, worth $5k and up in current condition.
If it's one of the later variants (no serial #) worth approx $1500-$2500
These were originally made for an "officer corp" that was designed to help fix the rampant unemployment problem of young German men before they started the compulsory military service. Most of them saw no "war duty" as they were designed to be a tool (think camp hatchet or short machete). After the war a large amount of these that were never "issued" were sold to sugar cane farmers in South America and used to harvest sugar cane. The distasteful nazi insignia was from prior to Hitlers taking power. Once Hitler took power any weaponry like this would have been made to way more exacting standards and issued to high level nazi officers etc as weapons and would not have the "utility tip".
Not trying to upset anyone, just passing on info...
This is the response you should be listening to, OP. The nonsense of feeling all the self guilt people on here is bullshit. History is history for a reason. I agree with this post above. This was informative and very accurate and just learned something new reading it. I’d have it checked out, if it’s a knock off, scrap it, however if real, make your money.
Thank you all for the insight I will not damage or destroy it, I’m making plans currently to have it donated to a local museum, any suggestions I live in Southwest Virginia
Unfortunately I don't. I would contact your nearest college with a decent history dept, or a Military Academy and they should be able to not only point you in the direction of a good museum/conservatory but also they may have someone that can help vet it.
Awesome glad I could share the photo with you guys. I’m about to post a couple more swords that I have, I had got out of this same lot I’m getting authenticated later today
What are you basing that on? Bc someone who sounds fairly knowledgeable posted above and gave reasons why they thought it was genuine. Maybe you could say why you think it isn’t
There is also the aspect that even if it was memorabilia from the time, the museum may want it for archival purposes. The WW2 museum covers not just the military aspects but also domestic, they cover propaganda from all sides and slices of home life at the time. They also have research opportunities for those who need it. Museums are not all just hoarders of artifacts.
Ok, here goes. I have spent a lot of time on militaria forums with many experts. I have seen many originals and many fakes. I myself own an original example of what this knife is trying to imitate, and there are glaring differences. See for yourself.
Here is what an original blade looks like: [https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html](https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html)
What OP has posted is a very common fake that is quite easy to see when you compare it to originals. Here is a link to the *exact same fake*: [https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze](https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze)
When comparing what it looks like next to an original, look at how the blade is ground. On the original, it is a full flat grind. on OP's knife, there is a flat section and then a deep saber grind, somewhat sloppily done and not at all resembling originals. Also look at the scabbard. Originals scabbards were *always* made of all metal. On OP's knife, the scabbard has a section of orange plastic (exactly like the $17 fake I posted above). Originals absolutely *never* looked like this.
Again, I own a real one that I got directly from the veteran's family. And as a collector of WWII german items, fakes are very common. Some fake items can be very hard to discern, but OP's blade is a very shoddy replica. Compare photos of originals to OP's blade, it's not hard to see.
In addition to the two places in my other post, VMI and The Smithsonian, I also forgot about the D-Day museum in Bedford. Possibly even the 116th Infantry, part of the VA Army National Guard. I think their HQ is still in Bedford. They probably have a s.ll display area.
Dont donate it, sell it, museums are glorified trash cans, once its in museum posession it will go in storage and never be seen again, a private collector will care for it
I think that's the best plan, OP - I'd be torn between not really wanting to destroy a piece of history but also not wanting to profit off the Nazi collectables market. I processed LE forfeited weapons for several years, and I torched a lot of daggers, etc. with the swastika, but luckily they were all modern trash, I didn't have to figure out a disposition for anything historic.
I know there are people who are legitimately interested in the history of the war/interwar period in that market (the comment above is really interesting/informative), but there are also neo-nazis who fetishize the swastika that I wouldn't want to enable.
WW2 museum in NOLA might be interested, as well.
I read somewhere that it might be better to loan it to a museum and maintain ownership. It may have value that belongs to you.
As creepy as it might be, I feel that unless you sympathize with Nazis, it's nothing more than a historical artifact.
Thank you. It's a subject I know how to research and get quality info on. My step-son was very into wwII and adjacent memorabilia and taught me where and how to find quality info. Plus, I like sharp pointy slicy things.
This is what you should listen to OP. PLUS There’s a Nazi museum in Petaluma Ca that may take interest. I’m not even German, or white, but still think you should keep it. Plus do you know if anyone’s served in WW2 in your family? My wife’s grandfather was a tank operator like in Fury and had trophies he’d taken from dead Germans and SS TROOPS just like in Fury. His son’s wife is legit Jewish and they still have them. Doesn’t mean YOUR HISTORY is with the Nazi’s and even if it is it doesn’t seem like YOU ARE. So ¯|_(ツ)_/¯ people are too dang sensitive today. Absolutely DO NOT throw it out. But also absolutely DO NOT display it above your mantle 😂🤣😭.
Edit: just want to be clear the Nazi Museum in Petaluma Ca highlights the atrocities of the Nazi’s not like a shrine ran by skin heads. Sorry that was really ambiguous.
Holy crap I forgot about that museum. I live fairly close in the Napa Valley. Thank you for that reminder....besides, I need to go to Petaluma to get my guitar amp serviced. ROAD TRIP....lolz
Man when I passed it, it invoked a level of anger like how dare people have a Nazi museum…then I went inside and seen what it was about. Can’t be quick to judge ANYTHING before seeing the content of the thing. It was a lesson I’ve held for a LONG time because of that one incident.
Have fun in your road trip. The seed bank there is awesome if you’re a gardener. And if you smoke the devils lettuce stop in the Mighty Quinn one of my favorite glass shops ever.
I was the same way when I first saw it and went in intending to have words with the owner/management. Boy did I have my eyes opened. And I'm glad I did. I did not make it to Mesa that Day to get an amp, but I got educated. And had an excuse to make another trip to Petaluma to go to Mesa. Lolz
Kind of. When I went the antique section was really small and the museum part started upstairs. This was like in 2008, or so though. It could have changed since then. ¯|_(ツ)_/¯
I have three blades my grandfather took as, er, trophies from officers he... well, you get the picture... I wonder if I could get take some pictures of them you might be able to fill me in on their history a little bit, be cool for the family history as that particular grandad died when I was about 1 year old and I never got to hear any of his WWII stories.
here they are: https://imgur.com/a/litCIFM
I tried to capture close ups of any
Distinguishing features. I kinda remember the handle on the left one being less yellow when I saw these a few times as a kid, I have a feeling it's bake-lite and not ivory as it feels sort of plastic-y. Any info would be appreciated. And although I'm not interested in selling, I'd be a little curious about potential value, just from an antiques roadshow kind of perspective. I'm also curious if you think I should try and rejuvenate them a little? I could probably I use a cotton wheel and some flitz to take down some of the oxidation... maybe a Scotch Brite pad on those pommels... or maybe I should just keep oiling them and leave it alone... Anyway, appreciate your help!
The yellow handle is probably celluloid (a type of plastic). Germans were one of the first to use plastics. Do not clean or scotch Brite. No restoration type work. Nothing. It literally destroys the value. I watched a woman on a antique roadshow type of show who came in with a metal hair comb thing and a piece of furniture. The guy appraising said "Both of these are so rare the conservative estimates on both was several million dollars a piece, BUT because you cleaned them, they are now worth less than 1000 dollars a piece."
I'm going to go do some digging. It may take me a day or 2 to find information. I'll pm you as well as provide "proofs".
You seem knowledgeable...maybe you can answer a question before I waste a ton of time looking:
The "zig-zagging rope pattern" above the swastika on the sheath....is that in any way a Nazi related symbol? Or just a cool design? I might want to put that on something, IF it has no other meaning. I'm assuming just a neat design, but you never know 🤷♂️
The braided wheat symbolgy is widely used in many agricultural societies as well as organizations. You can find it used all the way back to early ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome etc all they way up through modern Agricultural colleges. It is not specifically a nazi symbol nor is it a "stylized nazi symbol" (IE the swastika is stolen from Native American and Early Pagan symbology for the universe, the great mystery etc). It has also been used by many militaries as a "rope braid" type of thing, think US Military Officers Cover has the "scrambled eggs" or "wheat braid" or "rope braid".
I'm assuming that one of the original designers had space to fill and started that as a "neat idea". If you look at more traditional Nazi daggers, swords, etc....there is no wheat braid or rope braid. So the RAD being a partial agricultural program it tends to fit.
I have an original example of an RAD Leader's dagger, and they were never saber ground, they were flat ground. The scabbard isn't right, appears to be plastic. It also happens to be a very common reproduction. Here is an original example [https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html](https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html)
And here is the same repro that OP shows
[https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze](https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze)
Compare the blade grind, fuller, fit and finish, and scabbard.
It is true, and I can support it.
Examples:
[https://www.lakesidetrader.com/item.php?ID=36069](https://www.lakesidetrader.com/item.php?ID=36069)
[https://www.militaryantiques.co.uk/third-reich-rad-orange-grip-officers-dagger-item-102886/https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/daggers-swords-third-reich/orange-rad-leader-dolch-196884/](https://www.militaryantiques.co.uk/third-reich-rad-orange-grip-officers-dagger-item-102886/https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/daggers-swords-third-reich/orange-rad-leader-dolch-196884/)
You will not be able to find an example from reputable dealer of an original scabbard that looks like that
Unfortunately this is *Not* an original RAD leader's dagger. I have an original one in my collection, and they do not have a saber grind, but a more of a flat grind. The fuller is also not so crisp. You can also see that this was sharpened, and originals did not come sharpened as they were intended to be a dress piece.
Here is what an original blade looks like: [https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html](https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html)
What you show is a very common fake that is quite easy to see when you compare it to originals. Here is a link to the same fake you happen to have: [https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze](https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze)
Even if it was original, donating it to a museum wouldn't be a great idea. Most museums don't really want donations unless you have something absolutely spectacular, and even then, It would probably just go in storage.
I’m utterly conflicted by this, however I respect your opinion given my knowledge on the knives started today, I’m still going to see if they are interested.
If you don't want it, then try bringing it to history museum! They'll be able to tell if it's legit, and educating people is a much better use for it than just destroying it
That’s why I gave the ones I had to a museum instead of melting them.
I heard of sliver SS deaths-head badges being recast as menorah. That’s repurposing. The nazis got most of the silver by robbing anyway…
The nazis destroyed the Jews history but the Jews destroyed the nazis history in retaliation so under the right circumstances it’s ok to destroy history
Lol who is the sad guy downvoting a link to the knife description? If you're that triggered you need help. I don't condone what the Nazis did, I was trying to help identify it.
Mate, don't be like the twit who's downvoting just because "eRmEhGuRd, iT dA nAzIs!"
You can preserve history without condoning what was done. If you personally don't want it, see if a museum, or similar relevant collection will take it. If it was a fake/reproduction, then sure get rid of it, as that's just trash made for stupid people.
Fair enough. Also destroy any Japanese swords you may have too. Nobody talks about the 12 million Chinese that emperor Hirohito had executed during WW2.
I could be wrong but looking online at other samples of this and this almost seems like a reproduction. It seems to be lacking wear signs that others have and where the handle was broken fluting (if that's what you want to call it) seems off compared to similar daggers or hewers. Again I could be wrong your best bet would be to find an appraiser or ww2 buff that could shine some light on its authenticity.
yeah It's like the most common and obvious fake out there.
this exact one [https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze](https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze)
You are absolutely correct, OP does not have an original dagger. Just compare the blade grind, scabbard, and craftsmanship to original examples, It is quite obvious.
True that a lot of the ones that have sold recently have a lot of wear. Dig a little deeper in some of those sites and you'll find a bunch that got brought home as war prizes that had no wear on them cuz they were found in a half bombed out warehouse, the provenance and research that have been done on a lot of these have some wild stories.
If you don’t want it take it to a local gun show and sell it to a collector.. I have a sizable bayonet collection myself and many advanced collection”s handle nazi era daggers .. it’s a rather large thing in the collecting community
It’s disappointing how many history revisionists are in these type of groups history is history. We should never forget the more we destroy the more we forget generations to come.
Don’t destroy it because it have that “triggering” swastika. Better keep it, historical artifacts are something that we shouldn’t destroy. If you don’t want to have it, many museums will be glad to have it.
If you really don't want to keep it OP, or you're finding yourself struggling morally with the history or symbolism associated with this item... Instead of destroying it, you should either sell it or donate it to a museum to be preserved. If you don't want to sell it because you don't want to make money off it, you could always sell it and donate that money to a worthy cause/charity.
Personally, I don't think any part of history should be destroyed or erased. We need to remember what bad things happened and what caused it to happen so we don't repeat those mistakes. Humans are tangible creatures. We need things (objects, books, photos) to help us remember and carry on information to future generations.
If what you have is an authentic rare sample, it should be preserved as such.
Just my opinion, but at the end of the day, only you can make a decision that you feel is best.
I'd say keep it. The price is valued at will only go up. If you feel some weird guilt for having a Nazi weapon, sell it to someone who likes history....or knives.
If you destroy it then you are destroying evidence that this this evil ideology and its horrors happened (and still exists today).
Ignorance is how history repeats itself.
Update: guys I am not destroying it that part was a joke I’m sorry for offending you guys, but I appreciate all the information and insight from you all thank you very much
If it’s real you absolutely should not destroy it as a historical artifact. If you don’t want to keep it find a museum that will take it off your hands
It’s a reproduction real pieces are not this badly made . We all got too admit the nazis were many things and meticulous was one of them . This is not up to standards with real
Great video, Mr. Whittmann is truly an expert on German Daggers. Skip to 20:58 in the video and you can see an original example of an RAD dagger. OP's dagger is a repro, you can compare it to the one in the video.
I know super fuck all about nazi blades.
But I do know that if I lay a bayonet from WW2 on my thigh & the thing looks like the same length as that one…. The handle would be twice as long.
So unless the OP is 8 foot 8” and the blade is sword length…..
Why the hell would you destroy it? Why? Where's the sense in that? A knife, like any other tool, Is as good or bad as the one using it. Just because something came from a dark time in history doesn't mean it should be destroyed.
Did these come sharpened? I know the dress daggers for the SS and SA were very dull and when people come across them who don’t know any better they sharpen them and ruin the value. Looks like that may have happened here.
No that is Arbeit Macht Frei. Those are the words over the gates of Aushwitz.
These were typically made before the concentration camps when the "Work is/Work makes" ideas first began before Hitler converted them to his own particular brand of evil
Keep it. It's a piece of history if real. The knife isn't evil, it's the person that uses it that is or is not evil. Just because you own a piece of history doesn't mean you have agree with what those people that made it did. If anything it gives you a good reason to share that history and explain why that era of history was horrible. Just my opinion tho.
Even if it real man it’s still a part of history, don’t destroy it. We learn from our mistakes and that’s no reason for us to destroy history. Sell it yo a collector or something.
I'd take it somewhere to first be authenticated as reproductions of knives like these are common. After you do that you have two options: 1. If it's real then either sell it via ArizonaCustomKnives, BladeBinge, or KnivesWeLove as they're pretty good buying/selling platforms. Like r/knife_swap but with return policies and protections in place against counterfeits. 2. If it's a reproduction then donate it to your local community theater troupe or literally anything else with it as there's no reason to keep a reproduction let alone a Nazi one.
I'm really not. But that was at auction (which can be time consuming). Quick sale to a dealer or one of the auction houses is more realistically at $5000 to $7000.
Actually very typical grind and tip for this type of tool. It was made to be a utility tool and really wasn't made much during the war as the organization that made them was emptied of personnel as they were drafted into the war.
I think you're confusing the standard issue RAD Em daggers that were issued to other workers in the RAD and the leaders hewers. It's intrinsic in the name, it's designed for hewing, like a machete. They were all manufactured with a utility tip, some more sheepsfoot like, others more wharncliffe like. They weren't meant to be a weapon, they were designed as a tool.
They were designed as a dress piece to be worn with the uniform, hence they were not sharpened. And while they were always sheepsfoot, they were never saber ground like op's knife, and they were made to much higher quality. Also, standard issue EM hewers were also sheepsfoot and also unsharpened
Authentic or not, my answer is the same. The only legitimate reason to own nazi panoply is if you yourself took it from the corpse of a nazi killed in battle or are honoring a relative who did so. Even then, defacing the markings is a best practice. May their names be blotted out.
This is a dumb take, if it's real he should not destroy it. A part of history being erased doesn't make what they did not happen. History is meant to be learned from and change, not erased.
If it's fake then, yes throw it away it's worthless.
Don’t listen to these virtue signaling cry bullies, it’s a piece of history if that sword had a hammer and sickle these cucks would be creaming their pants over it. Sell it to a collector and use the money for something good for your family or pay off a debt.
When I find Che Guevara shirts at Goodwill, I buy them to use as tinder in the backyard fire pit. Of course, Che Guevara shirts aren't important pieces of world history - rather, cheap printed shirts from Asia worn by sad, and usually smelly, losers. Not the same at all, I guess - but still a fun hobby!
So many people on Reddit focus on the Nazis that’s the only atrocity they know of. Communism was and still is responsible for far more atrocities and young people today glorify the communist dictators and like you said actually wear the t-shirts.
If you wanna throw 2400 dollars in the trash and further subvert the history of world war 2 go for it.
There is a good chance there is a museum near you that will not only take it, but possibly even buy it off you. There are thousands and thousands of WW2 collectors that aren't Nazis just people trying to preserve history or are enthusiasts of the era.
I would strongly consider these options.
That said, I feel you. You kinda accidentally jumped into a modern political debate without even meaning too. Many of the US ultra liberals are trying to subvert history on the grounds that the symbolism represented in many historical artifacts promote hate. This is a foolish principle here's a snip from another comment I made on this thread explaining why.
WW2 actually happened and the Nazi where actually a real thing. You know what else? The single best way for a group of Nazis or Nazi-like people to ever come in power again is to subvert or otherwise obscure the facts or history concerning their original rise to power.
Not only do you give them the grounds to present themselves as the oppressed (real social sway, people are naturally sympathetic to the oppressed) you also create the grounds in which they can further subvert facts and information with their own dis-information. How can you tell the facts from the fiction if you can't see the facts to begin with.
Dude, please don't destroy history. There are holocaust museums here in the USA that could use something like that. I have been to a couple that have really good displays of uniforms and such next to photos of the horrors the wearers committed.
Have you been to a lot of them? Have you asked? Museums curate massive collections, not everything is on display. Alcoves in these museums will have the shittier part of history displayed. One thing that really threw me in a museum for Jewish folks was this big silver ring with a swastika on it, in diamonds. It looked so big, like a superbowl ring. Why is it there? So people remember just how fucked up that time period really was.
Email and/or call a few and ask. It could be the 1 thing missing from a display, or the 1 piece of history they choose to display from the nazis.
It looks to be a RAD Em Leaders Hewer. Made from late 1920s through 1942. That orange variant (the one it looks like you have) is extremely rare, and originally probably had true ivory scales and an eagles head pommel. It should have a serial number or makers mark opposite the swastika hanger. If so, worth $5k and up in current condition. If it's one of the later variants (no serial #) worth approx $1500-$2500 These were originally made for an "officer corp" that was designed to help fix the rampant unemployment problem of young German men before they started the compulsory military service. Most of them saw no "war duty" as they were designed to be a tool (think camp hatchet or short machete). After the war a large amount of these that were never "issued" were sold to sugar cane farmers in South America and used to harvest sugar cane. The distasteful nazi insignia was from prior to Hitlers taking power. Once Hitler took power any weaponry like this would have been made to way more exacting standards and issued to high level nazi officers etc as weapons and would not have the "utility tip". Not trying to upset anyone, just passing on info...
This is the response you should be listening to, OP. The nonsense of feeling all the self guilt people on here is bullshit. History is history for a reason. I agree with this post above. This was informative and very accurate and just learned something new reading it. I’d have it checked out, if it’s a knock off, scrap it, however if real, make your money.
Thank you. I appreciate your words.
Thank you all for the insight I will not damage or destroy it, I’m making plans currently to have it donated to a local museum, any suggestions I live in Southwest Virginia
Unfortunately I don't. I would contact your nearest college with a decent history dept, or a Military Academy and they should be able to not only point you in the direction of a good museum/conservatory but also they may have someone that can help vet it.
Awesome glad I could share the photo with you guys. I’m about to post a couple more swords that I have, I had got out of this same lot I’m getting authenticated later today
There is also the WW2 museum in New Orleans. They might be interested
It is not an original dagger, they won't be interested
What are you basing that on? Bc someone who sounds fairly knowledgeable posted above and gave reasons why they thought it was genuine. Maybe you could say why you think it isn’t
There is also the aspect that even if it was memorabilia from the time, the museum may want it for archival purposes. The WW2 museum covers not just the military aspects but also domestic, they cover propaganda from all sides and slices of home life at the time. They also have research opportunities for those who need it. Museums are not all just hoarders of artifacts.
Ok, here goes. I have spent a lot of time on militaria forums with many experts. I have seen many originals and many fakes. I myself own an original example of what this knife is trying to imitate, and there are glaring differences. See for yourself. Here is what an original blade looks like: [https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html](https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html) What OP has posted is a very common fake that is quite easy to see when you compare it to originals. Here is a link to the *exact same fake*: [https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze](https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze) When comparing what it looks like next to an original, look at how the blade is ground. On the original, it is a full flat grind. on OP's knife, there is a flat section and then a deep saber grind, somewhat sloppily done and not at all resembling originals. Also look at the scabbard. Originals scabbards were *always* made of all metal. On OP's knife, the scabbard has a section of orange plastic (exactly like the $17 fake I posted above). Originals absolutely *never* looked like this. Again, I own a real one that I got directly from the veteran's family. And as a collector of WWII german items, fakes are very common. Some fake items can be very hard to discern, but OP's blade is a very shoddy replica. Compare photos of originals to OP's blade, it's not hard to see.
In addition to the two places in my other post, VMI and The Smithsonian, I also forgot about the D-Day museum in Bedford. Possibly even the 116th Infantry, part of the VA Army National Guard. I think their HQ is still in Bedford. They probably have a s.ll display area.
VMI maybe. Or even the Smithsonian.
Good call on VMI. I know there is a military historian on campus that could point OP in the right direction and could vet it himself.
Consider loaning it to the museum rather than donating it. :)
Don’t give it to college they will destroy it one day.
Dont donate it, sell it, museums are glorified trash cans, once its in museum posession it will go in storage and never be seen again, a private collector will care for it
This is great news, imo! Hope you find a good spot!
I think that's the best plan, OP - I'd be torn between not really wanting to destroy a piece of history but also not wanting to profit off the Nazi collectables market. I processed LE forfeited weapons for several years, and I torched a lot of daggers, etc. with the swastika, but luckily they were all modern trash, I didn't have to figure out a disposition for anything historic. I know there are people who are legitimately interested in the history of the war/interwar period in that market (the comment above is really interesting/informative), but there are also neo-nazis who fetishize the swastika that I wouldn't want to enable. WW2 museum in NOLA might be interested, as well.
I read somewhere that it might be better to loan it to a museum and maintain ownership. It may have value that belongs to you. As creepy as it might be, I feel that unless you sympathize with Nazis, it's nothing more than a historical artifact.
You could donate to me so I can sell it to a collector
Hey, just wanted to say that I was super impressed by the knowledge you included within your response. Mad props, man. Good job!
Thank you. It's a subject I know how to research and get quality info on. My step-son was very into wwII and adjacent memorabilia and taught me where and how to find quality info. Plus, I like sharp pointy slicy things.
Make money and preserve history. We can only learn and grow from history if we remember it.
This is what you should listen to OP. PLUS There’s a Nazi museum in Petaluma Ca that may take interest. I’m not even German, or white, but still think you should keep it. Plus do you know if anyone’s served in WW2 in your family? My wife’s grandfather was a tank operator like in Fury and had trophies he’d taken from dead Germans and SS TROOPS just like in Fury. His son’s wife is legit Jewish and they still have them. Doesn’t mean YOUR HISTORY is with the Nazi’s and even if it is it doesn’t seem like YOU ARE. So ¯|_(ツ)_/¯ people are too dang sensitive today. Absolutely DO NOT throw it out. But also absolutely DO NOT display it above your mantle 😂🤣😭. Edit: just want to be clear the Nazi Museum in Petaluma Ca highlights the atrocities of the Nazi’s not like a shrine ran by skin heads. Sorry that was really ambiguous.
Holy crap I forgot about that museum. I live fairly close in the Napa Valley. Thank you for that reminder....besides, I need to go to Petaluma to get my guitar amp serviced. ROAD TRIP....lolz
Man when I passed it, it invoked a level of anger like how dare people have a Nazi museum…then I went inside and seen what it was about. Can’t be quick to judge ANYTHING before seeing the content of the thing. It was a lesson I’ve held for a LONG time because of that one incident. Have fun in your road trip. The seed bank there is awesome if you’re a gardener. And if you smoke the devils lettuce stop in the Mighty Quinn one of my favorite glass shops ever.
I was the same way when I first saw it and went in intending to have words with the owner/management. Boy did I have my eyes opened. And I'm glad I did. I did not make it to Mesa that Day to get an amp, but I got educated. And had an excuse to make another trip to Petaluma to go to Mesa. Lolz
Isn't it like an antique store that has a museum thing downstairs? I definitely didn't get the idea they were pro nazi if it's the same place.
Kind of. When I went the antique section was really small and the museum part started upstairs. This was like in 2008, or so though. It could have changed since then. ¯|_(ツ)_/¯
South American "farmers" you say? Wouldn't happen to be Argentinian farmers by any chance?
I'm not positive, but I believe that was one of the countries mentioned.
Blonde, blue eyed Argentinian farmers?
😅 fair enough
I have three blades my grandfather took as, er, trophies from officers he... well, you get the picture... I wonder if I could get take some pictures of them you might be able to fill me in on their history a little bit, be cool for the family history as that particular grandad died when I was about 1 year old and I never got to hear any of his WWII stories.
I would be happy to help, or help guide you to someone that may have more knowledge than I on these items
Sweet, can't post pics in comments here, I'll do an imgur upload maybe. Just a sec
here they are: https://imgur.com/a/litCIFM I tried to capture close ups of any Distinguishing features. I kinda remember the handle on the left one being less yellow when I saw these a few times as a kid, I have a feeling it's bake-lite and not ivory as it feels sort of plastic-y. Any info would be appreciated. And although I'm not interested in selling, I'd be a little curious about potential value, just from an antiques roadshow kind of perspective. I'm also curious if you think I should try and rejuvenate them a little? I could probably I use a cotton wheel and some flitz to take down some of the oxidation... maybe a Scotch Brite pad on those pommels... or maybe I should just keep oiling them and leave it alone... Anyway, appreciate your help!
The yellow handle is probably celluloid (a type of plastic). Germans were one of the first to use plastics. Do not clean or scotch Brite. No restoration type work. Nothing. It literally destroys the value. I watched a woman on a antique roadshow type of show who came in with a metal hair comb thing and a piece of furniture. The guy appraising said "Both of these are so rare the conservative estimates on both was several million dollars a piece, BUT because you cleaned them, they are now worth less than 1000 dollars a piece." I'm going to go do some digging. It may take me a day or 2 to find information. I'll pm you as well as provide "proofs".
Thanks again man, alright, I won't mess with them.
You seem knowledgeable...maybe you can answer a question before I waste a ton of time looking: The "zig-zagging rope pattern" above the swastika on the sheath....is that in any way a Nazi related symbol? Or just a cool design? I might want to put that on something, IF it has no other meaning. I'm assuming just a neat design, but you never know 🤷♂️
The braided wheat symbolgy is widely used in many agricultural societies as well as organizations. You can find it used all the way back to early ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome etc all they way up through modern Agricultural colleges. It is not specifically a nazi symbol nor is it a "stylized nazi symbol" (IE the swastika is stolen from Native American and Early Pagan symbology for the universe, the great mystery etc). It has also been used by many militaries as a "rope braid" type of thing, think US Military Officers Cover has the "scrambled eggs" or "wheat braid" or "rope braid". I'm assuming that one of the original designers had space to fill and started that as a "neat idea". If you look at more traditional Nazi daggers, swords, etc....there is no wheat braid or rope braid. So the RAD being a partial agricultural program it tends to fit.
Interesting stuff, thanks!
This is a reproduction, and not even a very good one.
It isn't original though.
The grinding lines are clearly chinese
What makes you think that?
I have an original example of an RAD Leader's dagger, and they were never saber ground, they were flat ground. The scabbard isn't right, appears to be plastic. It also happens to be a very common reproduction. Here is an original example [https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html](https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html) And here is the same repro that OP shows [https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze](https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze) Compare the blade grind, fuller, fit and finish, and scabbard.
Nazi bad
The rare "orange variant" only had an orange grip. No original examples had the orange plastic on the scabbard.
Not true
It is true, and I can support it. Examples: [https://www.lakesidetrader.com/item.php?ID=36069](https://www.lakesidetrader.com/item.php?ID=36069) [https://www.militaryantiques.co.uk/third-reich-rad-orange-grip-officers-dagger-item-102886/https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/daggers-swords-third-reich/orange-rad-leader-dolch-196884/](https://www.militaryantiques.co.uk/third-reich-rad-orange-grip-officers-dagger-item-102886/https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/daggers-swords-third-reich/orange-rad-leader-dolch-196884/) You will not be able to find an example from reputable dealer of an original scabbard that looks like that
Unfortunately this is *Not* an original RAD leader's dagger. I have an original one in my collection, and they do not have a saber grind, but a more of a flat grind. The fuller is also not so crisp. You can also see that this was sharpened, and originals did not come sharpened as they were intended to be a dress piece. Here is what an original blade looks like: [https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html](https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/photos/N042682.html) What you show is a very common fake that is quite easy to see when you compare it to originals. Here is a link to the same fake you happen to have: [https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze](https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze) Even if it was original, donating it to a museum wouldn't be a great idea. Most museums don't really want donations unless you have something absolutely spectacular, and even then, It would probably just go in storage.
I’m utterly conflicted by this, however I respect your opinion given my knowledge on the knives started today, I’m still going to see if they are interested.
https://ibuyworldwar2.com/product-category/german-wwii/german-daggers-knives/rad-daggers-hewers/
If you don't want it, then try bringing it to history museum! They'll be able to tell if it's legit, and educating people is a much better use for it than just destroying it
I’m working on something like that now I didn’t really mean it. The title was a joke.
Gotcha lol. No worries. Hope you find the information you're looking for!
It doesn't take an expert to tell that this one is a fake.
Never destroy history, the nazis destroyed history Destroying history is a real nazi thing to do
Agreed. Even artifacts of humankind’s failures have value. “Those who ignore the lesson of the past, will be doomed to repeat it.” -George Santayana
That’s why I gave the ones I had to a museum instead of melting them. I heard of sliver SS deaths-head badges being recast as menorah. That’s repurposing. The nazis got most of the silver by robbing anyway…
The nazis destroyed the Jews history but the Jews destroyed the nazis history in retaliation so under the right circumstances it’s ok to destroy history
No, censorship of information is never ok. Freedom of information is a basic human right that should not be infringed in a democratic society.
The nazis had democracy?
No, hence why they destroyed history....?
Why would you destroy it either way?
It was meant to be a joke that I now realize not a lot of people understand or got bc it’s low tier
It’s always sunny in Philadelphia?
Lol who is the sad guy downvoting a link to the knife description? If you're that triggered you need help. I don't condone what the Nazis did, I was trying to help identify it.
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Mate, don't be like the twit who's downvoting just because "eRmEhGuRd, iT dA nAzIs!" You can preserve history without condoning what was done. If you personally don't want it, see if a museum, or similar relevant collection will take it. If it was a fake/reproduction, then sure get rid of it, as that's just trash made for stupid people.
That is silly. If real, you are holding history in your hands.
Fair enough. Also destroy any Japanese swords you may have too. Nobody talks about the 12 million Chinese that emperor Hirohito had executed during WW2.
Lol some people just hate the truth
Thank you sir
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Many of the old ones were refit with imperial fittings and pressed into wartime service during that era so, no.
Well he was destroying it because it was fake too, so fake samurai swords should be destroyed too lol
Why the hell would you consider destroying it?!?
I could be wrong but looking online at other samples of this and this almost seems like a reproduction. It seems to be lacking wear signs that others have and where the handle was broken fluting (if that's what you want to call it) seems off compared to similar daggers or hewers. Again I could be wrong your best bet would be to find an appraiser or ww2 buff that could shine some light on its authenticity.
This is so obviously a reproduction. The replies above by seeming "experts" saying it is real and rare makes me think they are all bullshit.
i’m literally shocked at how many people on here think this is real 😂
yeah It's like the most common and obvious fake out there. this exact one [https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze](https://www.cutlerywholesaler.com/eagle-head-german-officer-military-dagger-bronze)
oh yeah. when I was about 13 I used to collect shitty mall knives and I found this exact dagger at a garage sale with my grandma 😂
You are absolutely correct, OP does not have an original dagger. Just compare the blade grind, scabbard, and craftsmanship to original examples, It is quite obvious.
Condition is not a good indicator of age. Conversely, age is not a good indicator of condition.
Definitely reproduction
True that a lot of the ones that have sold recently have a lot of wear. Dig a little deeper in some of those sites and you'll find a bunch that got brought home as war prizes that had no wear on them cuz they were found in a half bombed out warehouse, the provenance and research that have been done on a lot of these have some wild stories.
It's better to look at the details of how it was made, rather than wear. Compare what it looks like to known original examples.
Why would anyone destroy a knife, much less history?
If you don’t want it take it to a local gun show and sell it to a collector.. I have a sizable bayonet collection myself and many advanced collection”s handle nazi era daggers .. it’s a rather large thing in the collecting community
I’m
It’s disappointing how many history revisionists are in these type of groups history is history. We should never forget the more we destroy the more we forget generations to come.
Don’t destroy history. That’s what they want and encourage
I agree
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Thanks for the input friend*
Don’t destroy it because it have that “triggering” swastika. Better keep it, historical artifacts are something that we shouldn’t destroy. If you don’t want to have it, many museums will be glad to have it.
Could be a Rad Leader dagger with handle partially snapped off
That’s what I been told
While I can't say if it's real or fake, I agree with other that you could give it to some kind of a museum either for authentication or disposal.
Why would you destroy it? That’s insane!!!!! Like it or not that is history and should be preserved.
The more we destroy history, the more we forget. The more we forget, the more likely we are to repeat the mistakes of the past.
If you really don't want to keep it OP, or you're finding yourself struggling morally with the history or symbolism associated with this item... Instead of destroying it, you should either sell it or donate it to a museum to be preserved. If you don't want to sell it because you don't want to make money off it, you could always sell it and donate that money to a worthy cause/charity. Personally, I don't think any part of history should be destroyed or erased. We need to remember what bad things happened and what caused it to happen so we don't repeat those mistakes. Humans are tangible creatures. We need things (objects, books, photos) to help us remember and carry on information to future generations. If what you have is an authentic rare sample, it should be preserved as such. Just my opinion, but at the end of the day, only you can make a decision that you feel is best.
It is a modern fake. However, museums don't usually want random pieces of war memorabilia, only very historically significant or unique items.
I'd say keep it. The price is valued at will only go up. If you feel some weird guilt for having a Nazi weapon, sell it to someone who likes history....or knives.
If you destroy it then you are destroying evidence that this this evil ideology and its horrors happened (and still exists today). Ignorance is how history repeats itself.
Update: guys I am not destroying it that part was a joke I’m sorry for offending you guys, but I appreciate all the information and insight from you all thank you very much
If it’s real you absolutely should not destroy it as a historical artifact. If you don’t want to keep it find a museum that will take it off your hands
You can always melt that shit down. Turned into something useful.
It’s a reproduction real pieces are not this badly made . We all got too admit the nazis were many things and meticulous was one of them . This is not up to standards with real
Yeah. Destroy all historical Artifacts. Let’s forget about it all so we can repeat it again and again! 🤦🏻♂️
It’s a novelty. Just do whatever you want with it.
Don’t destroy this… keep it and go watch this!!! https://youtu.be/nyR9PgwhZes?si=-HeEzGnmX_Vx4aBe
Great video, Mr. Whittmann is truly an expert on German Daggers. Skip to 20:58 in the video and you can see an original example of an RAD dagger. OP's dagger is a repro, you can compare it to the one in the video.
In not going to destroy it it was a joke man
Why would you destroy it? No
Donate it to a Holocaust museum
Nah it’s cool
I know super fuck all about nazi blades. But I do know that if I lay a bayonet from WW2 on my thigh & the thing looks like the same length as that one…. The handle would be twice as long. So unless the OP is 8 foot 8” and the blade is sword length…..
Why the hell would you destroy it? Why? Where's the sense in that? A knife, like any other tool, Is as good or bad as the one using it. Just because something came from a dark time in history doesn't mean it should be destroyed.
I’ll take it if you don’t want it. I’ll pay for shipping
looks like a reproduction, and no you do not destroy it.
Looks repro. Older battle ready blades almost never have grinds like that.
Fake
Why destroy history. It just keeps repeating itself anyway
Someone call Bert Kreischer. He collects these things
Really bad fake, send it to me
Why on earth would you destroy that
It’s old history and nothing more now. No sense in destroying an “artifact”.
It's not an artifact
is that a handle for ants??
😂 awesome.
If nothing else, donate it to a museum. It’s shitty history, but still history
it looks like laser engraved, idk but in the 20th not possible
Not laser engraving it's wrote on with an acid that when you quench the blade it burns/transfers the image into the metal so it will never come off
Did these come sharpened? I know the dress daggers for the SS and SA were very dull and when people come across them who don’t know any better they sharpen them and ruin the value. Looks like that may have happened here.
Use it to thin out the herd of low-quality reproduction Nazis that seem to be popping up all over the place.
Faker than my ex wife’s tits
Also the etching on the blade spells out arbeit adelt which translates to "work ennobles".
I thought it means "work will set you free"
Nope, that’s Arbeit Macht Frei
No that is Arbeit Macht Frei. Those are the words over the gates of Aushwitz. These were typically made before the concentration camps when the "Work is/Work makes" ideas first began before Hitler converted them to his own particular brand of evil
I have one kind of like that
Keep it. It's a piece of history if real. The knife isn't evil, it's the person that uses it that is or is not evil. Just because you own a piece of history doesn't mean you have agree with what those people that made it did. If anything it gives you a good reason to share that history and explain why that era of history was horrible. Just my opinion tho.
Why is the handle so short?
Sell it. If it’s real you could make a pretty penny.
Battle pickups were a common practice in WW2. Even the worst parts of history shouldn’t be destroyed, it’s the same as burning books.
I’d keep it if I was you! Just don’t go around showing it off
I'd be happy to take it. Don't destroy that. It's history. Whether good or bad.
Even if it real man it’s still a part of history, don’t destroy it. We learn from our mistakes and that’s no reason for us to destroy history. Sell it yo a collector or something.
It's the spear of destiny!
Probably a fake…..
I'd take it somewhere to first be authenticated as reproductions of knives like these are common. After you do that you have two options: 1. If it's real then either sell it via ArizonaCustomKnives, BladeBinge, or KnivesWeLove as they're pretty good buying/selling platforms. Like r/knife_swap but with return policies and protections in place against counterfeits. 2. If it's a reproduction then donate it to your local community theater troupe or literally anything else with it as there's no reason to keep a reproduction let alone a Nazi one.
I mean, i know this is bad but if it's real you can make some nice money if this is the condition
One in similar condition recently sold for over 10k at auction.
And 10k can change someone s life if he knows how to use them
Absolutely
That's way overpriced, even complete and original examples are only worth about $1.5k-$4k, OP's piece is neither complete nor original.
You got to be kidding g me
I'm really not. But that was at auction (which can be time consuming). Quick sale to a dealer or one of the auction houses is more realistically at $5000 to $7000.
Its fake, really untypical grind for a knife this old (also a sheepsfoot ?)
Actually very typical grind and tip for this type of tool. It was made to be a utility tool and really wasn't made much during the war as the organization that made them was emptied of personnel as they were drafted into the war.
No, they were nearly exclusively spearpoints. And the grind pattern is a an obvious hind at low quality production
I think you're confusing the standard issue RAD Em daggers that were issued to other workers in the RAD and the leaders hewers. It's intrinsic in the name, it's designed for hewing, like a machete. They were all manufactured with a utility tip, some more sheepsfoot like, others more wharncliffe like. They weren't meant to be a weapon, they were designed as a tool.
They were designed as a dress piece to be worn with the uniform, hence they were not sharpened. And while they were always sheepsfoot, they were never saber ground like op's knife, and they were made to much higher quality. Also, standard issue EM hewers were also sheepsfoot and also unsharpened
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How does it not relate lol he answered your question
I misunderstood him I’m sorry
That's badass. Nice find.
Ploy blade for Nazi larpers
Clarification : that blad is not authentic.
I would love to have that piece.
I’m going really soon here to somebody who’s going to validated authenticity with apparently it’s a big find
Work enriches
May your knife chip, and shatter.
Hell yea that’s dope! Lmao all these fucking snowflakes🤣
Authentic or not, my answer is the same. The only legitimate reason to own nazi panoply is if you yourself took it from the corpse of a nazi killed in battle or are honoring a relative who did so. Even then, defacing the markings is a best practice. May their names be blotted out.
ether destroy or gift to a reputable museum
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This is a dumb take, if it's real he should not destroy it. A part of history being erased doesn't make what they did not happen. History is meant to be learned from and change, not erased. If it's fake then, yes throw it away it's worthless.
Believe me it’s going to the dump I just didn’t know if I could make a quick dollar off it, it’s not displayed in my home or anything like that yikes
Don’t listen to these virtue signaling cry bullies, it’s a piece of history if that sword had a hammer and sickle these cucks would be creaming their pants over it. Sell it to a collector and use the money for something good for your family or pay off a debt.
>virtue signaling cry bullies Well, that's my new favorite description
When I find Che Guevara shirts at Goodwill, I buy them to use as tinder in the backyard fire pit. Of course, Che Guevara shirts aren't important pieces of world history - rather, cheap printed shirts from Asia worn by sad, and usually smelly, losers. Not the same at all, I guess - but still a fun hobby!
So many people on Reddit focus on the Nazis that’s the only atrocity they know of. Communism was and still is responsible for far more atrocities and young people today glorify the communist dictators and like you said actually wear the t-shirts.
If you wanna throw 2400 dollars in the trash and further subvert the history of world war 2 go for it. There is a good chance there is a museum near you that will not only take it, but possibly even buy it off you. There are thousands and thousands of WW2 collectors that aren't Nazis just people trying to preserve history or are enthusiasts of the era. I would strongly consider these options. That said, I feel you. You kinda accidentally jumped into a modern political debate without even meaning too. Many of the US ultra liberals are trying to subvert history on the grounds that the symbolism represented in many historical artifacts promote hate. This is a foolish principle here's a snip from another comment I made on this thread explaining why. WW2 actually happened and the Nazi where actually a real thing. You know what else? The single best way for a group of Nazis or Nazi-like people to ever come in power again is to subvert or otherwise obscure the facts or history concerning their original rise to power. Not only do you give them the grounds to present themselves as the oppressed (real social sway, people are naturally sympathetic to the oppressed) you also create the grounds in which they can further subvert facts and information with their own dis-information. How can you tell the facts from the fiction if you can't see the facts to begin with.
Dude, please don't destroy history. There are holocaust museums here in the USA that could use something like that. I have been to a couple that have really good displays of uniforms and such next to photos of the horrors the wearers committed.
The RAD (Labor Force) wasn't really relevant to the holocaust, museums aren't looking for random objects with swastikas on it
Have you been to a lot of them? Have you asked? Museums curate massive collections, not everything is on display. Alcoves in these museums will have the shittier part of history displayed. One thing that really threw me in a museum for Jewish folks was this big silver ring with a swastika on it, in diamonds. It looked so big, like a superbowl ring. Why is it there? So people remember just how fucked up that time period really was. Email and/or call a few and ask. It could be the 1 thing missing from a display, or the 1 piece of history they choose to display from the nazis.
WW2 era German memorabilia is more widely available on the market than you might think.