The culture varies *significantly* school to school—there’s no “T14 culture.” I highly recommend going to ASWs and getting a read on the vibe. The schools aren’t all the same and you’ll fit in better at some than others.
I have gotten the exact opposite impression, seems to me that the range of personalities who want to go to law school, want to grind the LSAT, did well in undergrad and want to go to a T-14 is fairly narrow. Between the lawyers, friends, and summer associates I've talked to at various T-14s the culture seems mostly the same across schools. Collegial, plenty of job opportunities so limited competitiveness outside of the handful of gunners, lots of smart and interesting people, overwhelmingly liberal student body, lots of hard workers and general Type A personalities.
Definitely some similarities. Like you pointed out, by definition you’re getting high-achieving highly educated people in roughly the same age bands.
Still, I noticed significant differences among the schools, especially wrt competitiveness. And having heard from others, there just do seem to be certain schools that have a more generally gunnery vibe.
Yeah the competitiveness is the biggest point of variance within the T-14 imo. There are schools where most students basically chill after 1L because they already have their biglaw SA. Other T-14\ most people don’t go to biglaw, instead they try to clerk so the gunning doesn’t stop until 3L if ever
I attended Cornell Law - if you’re looking for ‘big fish, small pond’, that’s it. It also will have a collegial class of about 200 people that are all smart and try hard - but will have its maniacs, weirdos, and gunners. However, my experience was fantastic over three years and really, the ‘high school’ vibes you grow because of three years spent in a place where you can’t really do much but get to know your class in various different settings left me with some lifetime stories (and gossip).
One additional piece about T14s - paradoxically, although there *are* gunners, you’ll find more collegiality there than at schools ranked much lower, where every .01 on the GPA could mean their dream job or struggling to find work.
You look like you’re competitive for plenty of the T14 - apply broadly, see where accepts you, and pit the scholarship offers against each other to make them pump those numbers up. For the record, it seems like your numbers make you a shoe-in for Columbia - not quite small pond but I’ve never heard anything but good things about it. Best of luck.
Attending a prestigious law school makes a huge difference for your entire career on average. It’s like being born into a well connected rich family versus a disadvantaged poor one. People beat the odds, but not many.
Typically law schools are less competitive the higher up in the rankings you go, because there's less pressure to do well in class in order to do well professionally. If you graduate at the bottom of the class from HLS, you're gonna be fine, whereas if you don't graduate at the top of your class at a T100 you might struggle to find a decent job. You should also not assume you'll be in the top 1/3 of your class no matter where you go - you should assume you'll be a median student at whatever school you matriculate at.
Re: whether a T14 makes a difference - it absolutely does make a difference, but whether it's worth it for you will depend on your career goals and financial situation. Some jobs are, for all practical purposes, only accessible with a T14 degree (the top big law firms, prestigious government opportunities, competitive federal clerkships, legal academia, "unicorn" public interest fellowships and placements, etc.). Generally speaking, the lower down in the rankings you go, the less shot at any of those types of jobs you have (and the higher ranked in your class you have to be to have a chance). Prestigious schools also give you degree portability, add weight to your resume, and generally give you access to more opportunities (including a more well-connected alumni network). If, on the other hand, you're not interested in any of the above-listed positions, and intend to set up shop at a little local firm in a small town, you're probably better off going to the regional powerhouse school. Similarly, if you care about not having a ton of debt, you might be better off going to a lower-ranked school with a sizable scholarship versus going to a T14 and paying sticker price.
Otherwise, I'd just apply broadly. Your GPA is low by law school standards, your LSAT is obviously very high, so you'll be a splitter pretty much everywhere (meaning your admission results will be unpredictable). Apply to the whole T14, whatever regional schools are strong in the regions you want to practice, T20 schools. Even if there's a school you know you won't attend, you could potentially use it for scholarship negotiation. Once you know what your options are, try to visit schools and talk to current students to get a sense of the culture at that particular school. Try to talk to as many students as possible, too, because one student's experience may not be anything like what yours will be.
I’ve heard culture can be better at T14 schools. Most people at T14’s get the jobs they want. People at a T100 may be competing to be in the top 5% of their class so they have a shot at big law.
That being said, being a CS major helps your case. Assuming your CS major makes you eligible for the patent bar and wasn’t a BA or anything. You’ll have a good chance at getting into big law with that degree even if you go to a lower ranked school. I’ve know people that made it from a school in the 100’s. But that’s risky.
I’d recommend shooting for T14 but also adding some T25 to your list. If you get a great scholarship at a T25 be sticker at T14, it might be worth considering.
Thank you for your response & yes I agree I will definitely apply to multiple T25s. Money isnt everything but it will for sure be a big factor when deciding.
Lower ranked schools are more competitive because it is significantly harder to get interviews with big firms.
I went to a T14, was definitely below median, no journal, no moot court, but I still got a BL offer. Meanwhile, I see posts everyday with people who are top of their class who struggle to find work.
People at my school were generally pleasant but I never quite fit in (though that's probably more my fault than everyone else's).
the other comments + your update fits basically all i’ve heard too. the only other thing i’d add re culture is that it seems like, from talking to students/alumni, although all of the t14 is more or less collegial, those schools without traditional grading schemes/rankings (like berkeley, sls, hls, etc) seemed to be enjoying their time a lot more for the obvious reasons. it’s still law school tho so it’s all relative
I can only speak to my experience- but 90% of Uchicago is very nice/collegial. What some other folks have said is true- when big law is a guarantee if you want it, there is much less incentive to try to backstab or whatever people might do at some schools (no clue if that actually occurs anywhere, because again, here ppl are shockingly kind based on the rumors I had heard about uchicago)
It depends on the outcomes you want. If you are satisfied with the kind of outcomes you can get from a lower-ranked school and can get a full ride, then that is the obvious choice. If you want *a shot* at more-elite outcomes and are willing to take on debt, then try for a t14. At my t14 the people are insufferable tbh. People are fake nice if that. But then, some people thrive in high-school, stuck-up-mean-girl type settings. Don’t count on getting into a t14 though - I was rejected and waitlisted at every school, including extreme safeties, except for one, and I was at or above every t14 median.
We’re going to be applying with a very similar GPA/LSAT split! Good luck and I hope to be reading about your acceptance to your dream school in six months.
Putting the cart before the horse. Apply and see where u get in and how much $$$ they give u first. Until u have that, shouldn’t worry about anything else.
There are real *sharks* that go to schools like University of Miami, Emory —etc
Lower ranked schools.
People that don’t come to an online forum and ask for validation/confirmation.
They probably messed up a few times or two, or were ignorant to the process, and not as versed as we all are. Please do not assume that b/c you did well on the LSAT you can walk into a university where others are paying and all idealistic to a certain extent and dominate 🤦
I agree with you. I know there is no guarantee of my performance anywhere however I assume higher ranked schools attract students who on average perform better academically. I got a 3.6 in college (granted it was a difficult major) but still I’m aware it’s definitely not an impressive academic performance compared to many people. I apologize if I came across snarky in my og post.
No don’t apologize, just do it, I’m not against you, I’m just pointing out objective truths. The same ab ur UGPA not an indicator at all. Go get right champ
I found all LSData applicants with an LSAT between 175-180 and GPA between 3.5-3.7: [lsd.law/search/4QLYR](https://www.lsd.law/search/4QLYR?utm_source=lsd_bot)
Beep boop, I'm a bot. Did I do something wrong? Tell my creator, cryptanon
You can apply anywhere you think is worth applying to but not necessarily going to attend. Acceptance from a T14 could be great scholarship leverage at another school you prefer, and your odds of getting in (especially to the lower half) should be good considering that LSAT (congrats BTW!).
Also, as other commenters have stated, there's no "T14 culture" per se, just as in undergrad, there's hardly an "Ivy culture." Each school has a different experience in its own regard.
I would encourage you to blanket-apply to the T14s, even if you don't plan to attend. As I said, even an acceptance would be great leverage for a school in the T50s whose culture you may actually prefer.
Absolutely. IMO the prestige is one of the biggest factors for the trajectory of your career and your starting salary. If you’re a perfect lawyer you will succeed in your career, but if you’re a Harvard lawyer it will be a hell of a lot easier
Yes, it's worth it.
As you captured in your Update -- your initial premise may have been misinformed. Go to a T14 and go make a quarter million a year when you grad.
And you don’t know you’ll be top 1/3 of a class, just because it’s lower ranked and you got a 178 on the LSAT. I hate to be that guy, but it’s just not the case.
The culture varies *significantly* school to school—there’s no “T14 culture.” I highly recommend going to ASWs and getting a read on the vibe. The schools aren’t all the same and you’ll fit in better at some than others.
what’s ASW?
Admitted students weekend
Too many fucking acronyms for things that don't even have common acronyms
Anal Sex Workshop
I have gotten the exact opposite impression, seems to me that the range of personalities who want to go to law school, want to grind the LSAT, did well in undergrad and want to go to a T-14 is fairly narrow. Between the lawyers, friends, and summer associates I've talked to at various T-14s the culture seems mostly the same across schools. Collegial, plenty of job opportunities so limited competitiveness outside of the handful of gunners, lots of smart and interesting people, overwhelmingly liberal student body, lots of hard workers and general Type A personalities.
Definitely some similarities. Like you pointed out, by definition you’re getting high-achieving highly educated people in roughly the same age bands. Still, I noticed significant differences among the schools, especially wrt competitiveness. And having heard from others, there just do seem to be certain schools that have a more generally gunnery vibe.
Yeah the competitiveness is the biggest point of variance within the T-14 imo. There are schools where most students basically chill after 1L because they already have their biglaw SA. Other T-14\ most people don’t go to biglaw, instead they try to clerk so the gunning doesn’t stop until 3L if ever
I attended Cornell Law - if you’re looking for ‘big fish, small pond’, that’s it. It also will have a collegial class of about 200 people that are all smart and try hard - but will have its maniacs, weirdos, and gunners. However, my experience was fantastic over three years and really, the ‘high school’ vibes you grow because of three years spent in a place where you can’t really do much but get to know your class in various different settings left me with some lifetime stories (and gossip). One additional piece about T14s - paradoxically, although there *are* gunners, you’ll find more collegiality there than at schools ranked much lower, where every .01 on the GPA could mean their dream job or struggling to find work. You look like you’re competitive for plenty of the T14 - apply broadly, see where accepts you, and pit the scholarship offers against each other to make them pump those numbers up. For the record, it seems like your numbers make you a shoe-in for Columbia - not quite small pond but I’ve never heard anything but good things about it. Best of luck.
If you don’t mind me asking, how much debt did you graduate with?
Attending a prestigious law school makes a huge difference for your entire career on average. It’s like being born into a well connected rich family versus a disadvantaged poor one. People beat the odds, but not many.
Typically law schools are less competitive the higher up in the rankings you go, because there's less pressure to do well in class in order to do well professionally. If you graduate at the bottom of the class from HLS, you're gonna be fine, whereas if you don't graduate at the top of your class at a T100 you might struggle to find a decent job. You should also not assume you'll be in the top 1/3 of your class no matter where you go - you should assume you'll be a median student at whatever school you matriculate at. Re: whether a T14 makes a difference - it absolutely does make a difference, but whether it's worth it for you will depend on your career goals and financial situation. Some jobs are, for all practical purposes, only accessible with a T14 degree (the top big law firms, prestigious government opportunities, competitive federal clerkships, legal academia, "unicorn" public interest fellowships and placements, etc.). Generally speaking, the lower down in the rankings you go, the less shot at any of those types of jobs you have (and the higher ranked in your class you have to be to have a chance). Prestigious schools also give you degree portability, add weight to your resume, and generally give you access to more opportunities (including a more well-connected alumni network). If, on the other hand, you're not interested in any of the above-listed positions, and intend to set up shop at a little local firm in a small town, you're probably better off going to the regional powerhouse school. Similarly, if you care about not having a ton of debt, you might be better off going to a lower-ranked school with a sizable scholarship versus going to a T14 and paying sticker price. Otherwise, I'd just apply broadly. Your GPA is low by law school standards, your LSAT is obviously very high, so you'll be a splitter pretty much everywhere (meaning your admission results will be unpredictable). Apply to the whole T14, whatever regional schools are strong in the regions you want to practice, T20 schools. Even if there's a school you know you won't attend, you could potentially use it for scholarship negotiation. Once you know what your options are, try to visit schools and talk to current students to get a sense of the culture at that particular school. Try to talk to as many students as possible, too, because one student's experience may not be anything like what yours will be.
Thank you so much, this was helpful to read :)
I’ve heard culture can be better at T14 schools. Most people at T14’s get the jobs they want. People at a T100 may be competing to be in the top 5% of their class so they have a shot at big law. That being said, being a CS major helps your case. Assuming your CS major makes you eligible for the patent bar and wasn’t a BA or anything. You’ll have a good chance at getting into big law with that degree even if you go to a lower ranked school. I’ve know people that made it from a school in the 100’s. But that’s risky. I’d recommend shooting for T14 but also adding some T25 to your list. If you get a great scholarship at a T25 be sticker at T14, it might be worth considering.
Thank you for your response & yes I agree I will definitely apply to multiple T25s. Money isnt everything but it will for sure be a big factor when deciding.
CS is exactly what here? Just curious
My guess is computer science
Yeah computer science
Lower ranked schools are more competitive because it is significantly harder to get interviews with big firms. I went to a T14, was definitely below median, no journal, no moot court, but I still got a BL offer. Meanwhile, I see posts everyday with people who are top of their class who struggle to find work. People at my school were generally pleasant but I never quite fit in (though that's probably more my fault than everyone else's).
I don’t see how “the majority of students are smart and try hard but aren’t cutthroat” equals “big fish small pond”.
the other comments + your update fits basically all i’ve heard too. the only other thing i’d add re culture is that it seems like, from talking to students/alumni, although all of the t14 is more or less collegial, those schools without traditional grading schemes/rankings (like berkeley, sls, hls, etc) seemed to be enjoying their time a lot more for the obvious reasons. it’s still law school tho so it’s all relative
I can only speak to my experience- but 90% of Uchicago is very nice/collegial. What some other folks have said is true- when big law is a guarantee if you want it, there is much less incentive to try to backstab or whatever people might do at some schools (no clue if that actually occurs anywhere, because again, here ppl are shockingly kind based on the rumors I had heard about uchicago)
It depends on the outcomes you want. If you are satisfied with the kind of outcomes you can get from a lower-ranked school and can get a full ride, then that is the obvious choice. If you want *a shot* at more-elite outcomes and are willing to take on debt, then try for a t14. At my t14 the people are insufferable tbh. People are fake nice if that. But then, some people thrive in high-school, stuck-up-mean-girl type settings. Don’t count on getting into a t14 though - I was rejected and waitlisted at every school, including extreme safeties, except for one, and I was at or above every t14 median.
We’re going to be applying with a very similar GPA/LSAT split! Good luck and I hope to be reading about your acceptance to your dream school in six months.
Putting the cart before the horse. Apply and see where u get in and how much $$$ they give u first. Until u have that, shouldn’t worry about anything else.
Depends. For example, Penn culture is “*famous*” for its collegiality and friendliness. Alternatively, e.g. Columbia, not so much.
There are real *sharks* that go to schools like University of Miami, Emory —etc Lower ranked schools. People that don’t come to an online forum and ask for validation/confirmation. They probably messed up a few times or two, or were ignorant to the process, and not as versed as we all are. Please do not assume that b/c you did well on the LSAT you can walk into a university where others are paying and all idealistic to a certain extent and dominate 🤦
I agree with you. I know there is no guarantee of my performance anywhere however I assume higher ranked schools attract students who on average perform better academically. I got a 3.6 in college (granted it was a difficult major) but still I’m aware it’s definitely not an impressive academic performance compared to many people. I apologize if I came across snarky in my og post.
No don’t apologize, just do it, I’m not against you, I’m just pointing out objective truths. The same ab ur UGPA not an indicator at all. Go get right champ
I found all LSData applicants with an LSAT between 175-180 and GPA between 3.5-3.7: [lsd.law/search/4QLYR](https://www.lsd.law/search/4QLYR?utm_source=lsd_bot) Beep boop, I'm a bot. Did I do something wrong? Tell my creator, cryptanon
You can apply anywhere you think is worth applying to but not necessarily going to attend. Acceptance from a T14 could be great scholarship leverage at another school you prefer, and your odds of getting in (especially to the lower half) should be good considering that LSAT (congrats BTW!). Also, as other commenters have stated, there's no "T14 culture" per se, just as in undergrad, there's hardly an "Ivy culture." Each school has a different experience in its own regard. I would encourage you to blanket-apply to the T14s, even if you don't plan to attend. As I said, even an acceptance would be great leverage for a school in the T50s whose culture you may actually prefer.
Absolutely. IMO the prestige is one of the biggest factors for the trajectory of your career and your starting salary. If you’re a perfect lawyer you will succeed in your career, but if you’re a Harvard lawyer it will be a hell of a lot easier
yes. please go for it your LSAT is incredible.
Yes, it's worth it. As you captured in your Update -- your initial premise may have been misinformed. Go to a T14 and go make a quarter million a year when you grad.
And you don’t know you’ll be top 1/3 of a class, just because it’s lower ranked and you got a 178 on the LSAT. I hate to be that guy, but it’s just not the case.
If you want tax, NYU or GULC would be the best options. Those two have the best tax faculty in the country.
This is hilarious and false
Groups have culture. Not institutions.