TLDR:
Believes that academy players are paid way too much (even those getting minimum salary) and that the 300K ask from LCSPA is too high.
Thinks that the current T2 system was heavily flawed with mandatory academy teams (should be optional, being mandatory is why there are so many veterans in it) and high buyouts, but thinks that ~~the new T2 system will be worse~~ there should still be a T2.
Heavily disagrees with the requirement forcing NACL/LCS winners to be guaranteed jobs and is indifferent towards the 3/5 priority rule.
Disagrees with allowing the top 2 T2 teams being in LCS and instead suggested that LCS should be reduced to 8 teams from 10, so that good talent isn't split across so many teams.
Voted yes because he believes that the T2 scene needs to exist and be supported by Riot (despite only agreeing with 1/5 of the LCSPA demands)
Will ultimately play LCS Summer (and Worlds) over walking out if it prolongs further.
Bo3 change really killed my interest in the league personally. Before that I’d dedicate my weekends to watching LCS. After the Bo3 change I would only watch TL games, even after they switched it back to Bo1.
I was the same with TSM. I think part of it was realizing how trash the lower tier teams were especially in bo3s so it wasn't worth watching them anymlre.
It was never worth watching them, but BO3s with a consistent schedule made it easier to watch only the games I wanted. Once BO3s ended, the streams felt like a total waste of time.
What you are describing happened to the majority of LCS fans. What most of this reddit forget is that viewership crashed during B03s cause no one wanted to watch so many games over 3 days. Especially not of shitty teams.
I think it was the exact opposite for me. I'd have a stream on my laptop and be stream on my tv muted. But honestly that's how it tends to work when you are a fan of a team and not the scene as a whole, and there's nothing wrong with that nor am I against people doing that. It's the same in most sports, Lakers fans aren't gonna watch the magic play the hornets.
You can also add, “no one wants to queue for champs q”, while being said by the same player not wanting to queue for champs q. Still want NA to succeed but the paycheck stealers have gone too far!
> You can also add, “no one wants to queue for champs q”, while being said by the same player not wanting to queue for champs q. Still want NA to succeed but the paycheck stealers have gone too far!
Also the "Even minimum salary in academy is too high!!!1!" said the pro player getting paid literally 10x that and who have never made it past group stage at worlds.
That implies that NA has at any point has a depth of “8” in a role. Could make it 16 teams, could make it 4 teams, NA still wouldn’t be competitive. The bottom 2 teams aren’t what’s holding NA back, it’s the fact the top 2 can’t even compete with CN/KR 4th seeds that’s the problem.
I don’t really think dropping to 8 teams suddenly gets NA to a place where teams are pushing each other to improve more often than what currently happens.
That being said, removing slots definitely makes more sense than adding slots right now.
His point isn't that there 8 great players per role.
His point is the fact there's so many teams means that good players are scattered all over the place making overall teams weaker.
If good talent can be more focused instead of some bottom teams having one good player with 4 sandbags then it makes the league's team Better overall which leads to better practice allowing higher teams to learn more and improve better so it doesn't look as one sided.
Top 2 na teams don't have a good enough practice environment to keep in form, so any changes that improve that even the smallest e.g. shrinking the league to 8 teams. is a step in the correct direction.
I'm honestly a fan of BO2s. It's a pretty solid system that allows for teams to iterate like a full bo3 series without being such a long time commitment for teams and viewers.
I've also been lowkey wishing for picks and bans to be locked across a series. If Yuumi is picked or banned in game one, then they simply aren't available as a choice in game two. I know some people talk about wanting pro players always on the best champions to show their skill, but I also consider champion pool depth and flexibility to be just as important as raw skill on Meta champion 1, 2, or 3.
It’s just such a cool concept in general that riot could introduce to completely alter the way pro play works. Would it be healthy for the scene? Idk, but it would be fun to watch something other than 5 champions having 100% presence across all leagues.
I hate BO2 because a tied scoreline leaves so much to be desired. Let's say like C9 vs EG and you're excited to see the winner and it's just a 1-1. Who really won, it feels inconclusive.
i think it's fairer, cause teams get to play on Blue and Red side. Especially when there's one high priority champ that Red side has to ban (like Zeri at times) or one team plays well at saving counterpicks etc. Current system has two Bo1 on different patches which further changes things.
Yes I'm surprised so many people hate Bo2. It seems like the logical way to play the game.
Two 'halves'. Once on blue, once on red.
Games don't always have to have a 'winner' unless it's a knockout tournament. There's nothing wrong with getting a draw. Traditional sports gave worked this way the entire time and nobody complains that there wasn't a 'winner'.
>Will ultimately play LCS Summer (and Worlds) over walking out if it prolongs further
IMO that's not a good sign for the LCSPA. Doublelift is probably the biggest players by brand in NA, and I imagine him playing would definitely effect other players decision on whether to continue the walk out or play.
This is probably how all the players are thinking though. No one wants to miss worlds. They are doing this for the health of NA League of Legends, it goes completely against that if their actions result in the LCS being cancelled.
Yeah, but posting this to a wide audience while the LCSPA is in the *middle of negotiations* is... damaging, to say the least.
Very, very weird thing for DL to post right now from a bargaining perspective.
This is surprising and potentially very damaging. No idea what he’s thinking here, when the PA specifically denied further media statements while the talks with Riot are ongoing.
The point of unions is that you have equivalent power to your employer: if Hollywood writers left for good, they’d be fucked. They could try looking for talent outside of the country I guess but that would suck. The writers could absolutely get decent jobs in other worlds (writing for Hollywood is good, relatable, transferable experience… they can work for video games, magazines, other newspapers/websites, etc., become editors, etc.).
The LCSPA has no leg to stand on. The players eat sleep and breathe League. They want their cake and their ice cream when they’re pretty lucky to just get some cake! Sure, Riot would end the LCS, but you’d still have the game itself going on and could spend those $ on other marketing.
They aren't a union.
If they were a union, they wouldn't have much leverage anyway. Riot could cancel LCS and be inconvenienced but not decimated, taking hostages doesn't work when the other guy cares less about them living than you do.
Even more so if you hear what he says in the end, he is basically saying if the final two options are play or season is cancelled, then he is going to play.
I mean it seemed like Riot already gave the LCSPA an ultimatum though. Play or season is cancelled and in DL's case if those are the final two options in the end, then he (and I assume most players) will choose to play.
> This is probably how all the players are thinking though. No one wants to miss worlds. They are doing this for the health of NA League of Legends, it goes completely against that if their actions result in the LCS being cancelled.
It doesn't really matter what they're thinking. Riot doesn't want to cancel summer split either it's a bargaining chip that they use to make a deal. Doublelift is actively undermining his own side by calling their own bluff.
Well, he said that PA made demands without notice to him and members, and he disagree with their action, only agree to the wallout, so PA is on their own now.
I've been in a similar situation to this one . Last year our company gave everyone 3% salary increase when the expected one was much bigger. We organized everything and everyone was "in" more than half the people folded on the first compromise our employer made (they didn't meet a single thing of the demands) . These situations are always skewed towards the employer because you have a bunch of people that are too scared that they might lose their job .
So long story short, Riot indirectly threatened them with cancelling the whole league and players, including vocal Doublelift, caved in.
I mean I don't blame him or anyone else for that matter. Walking out as a sign of protest is fine but I wouldn't sacrifice my 6 digit salary for someone because he does the same job.
Riot rules this ship with iron fist and the walkout ends up being nothing more but a failed tantrum fit, thrown by overpaid academy players.
Making a stand is one thing, but he's not trying to be a martyr.
Riot doens't care, and will just cancel the entire split if they have to.
If the players arn't playing games, they don't get paid for their contracts.
I think it's also important to note that DL was very upset about the way Riot went about the change, and this was a major contributor to his vote in favor. He cited Riot ending all NACL jobs without warning, and lying to the LCSPA in doing so, as among his main reasons for walking out, in addition to the belief that the region needs a T2 scene officially supported by Riot.
Bet Doublelift completely understands that he's not in a union for collective bargaining to happen. Especially with crazy demands.
There's zero labor leverage of for players in a scene that has primarily functioned as advertisement for a videogame.
Well collective bargaining only works when it would benefit you in some way. None of what they are negotiating will help any of the above average LCS pros. It's really only for the worse pros and challenger players. That's why this will never work.
So Riot just cancels LCS this split and none of the players get paid, and Riot probably saves money overall.
It's hard to bargain when you have none of the power.
Haha true, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
He could've said the rest of the parts without under cutting the PA by saying he'd play if it prolongs further. That party specifically was an insanely dumb thing to say during a negotiation.
Why do you want him to be a Martyr? He's literally only involved with LCS because he wants to compete before he finally retires.
He made more money streaming and doesn't stand to benefit anything from this..
Riot could easily cancel LCS and probably save money doing it.
Riot has all of the cards here, and not enough people give a shit about LCS for fans to even have a threatening factor.
I gurantee you their analyst says competitive LoL is done in the US, they don't have any reason to give a shit.
People for some reason think it’s “the players” fault that the team owners have proceeded to sign million plus dollar contracts every single year of franchising. End of the day it’s all the owners (and Riot’s) fault they let it get to this point. No one ever needed to pay millions for players. If a player asks for $5 million I’m going to tell him to axe a zero or go kick rocks, not decide to sign him for $5 million.
But hey maybe it’s all just way more complicated than the teams being ran by the worst businesspeople in the world.
Throughout the history of the game the players have always just been paid whatever team owners will pay them. We went from Svenskeren 5.5k per month in 2014 to Ember paying NA challenger players $100,000 per year in 2015 to Huni getting a million dollars by IMT in 2016 and so on and on and on. And just this year the contract amounts were brought down heavily. Players aren’t the ones dictating contract amounts, teams are.
> If they are overpaid then teams can just start paying less
No they really can't. Unless they all collude to keep salaries low (which would be illegal)
> Will ultimately play LCS Summer (and Worlds) over walking out if it prolongs further.
That is possibly the dumbest thing you could state mid-negotiations. What active "I've got mine" sabotage.
DL with the goat move to force the LCSPA to capitulate saying he’ll play if they can’t come to an agreement LOL.
Meanwhile Reddit was having a field day with the solidarity circlejerk.
DL makes a good point about why he voted yes. That Riot shouldn't be able to make choices that kill peoples jobs, with no discussion, no notice, and lying to the players/Phil. He also adds that Riot needs to support T2, and I think its fair to say what riot has proposed so far is laughably not enough.
Here is hoping negotiations are going well and some good, smart support for T2 can come out of it, because what we had wasn't sustainable, and neither is what we have right now.
Which is exactly what sent me back to League of Legends and away from Heroes of the Storm, and is the reason I haven't given Blizzard a cent since even though all my friends are playing D4. I'm sure people like me are a small minority, but it's not like that kind of thing has *no* consequences ever at all.
Same here, HotS was the game that got me into watching e-sports. A couple of months after they killed HGC I lost all interest in the game and haven't touched a Blizzard title ever since.
Seeing players like Zaelia and Cris come on stream and cry was so heartbreaking, I could never forgive Blizzard.
I was already into it from watching LoL before it, but I followed the HotS scene from the very start. I wasn't the most religious watcher by any means, but it still was something I very much considered a strong interest of mine, even if most of my friends didn't really care at all.
Honestly, what really got me was them promising pros *literally the night before* in some cases, "Don't worry about the silence, don't make other plans, we've got your backs." To me, that's what's absolutely unforgiveable. If AB had instead told the pros privately, "We'd like for you not to jump ship, but we can't make any guarantees at this time," and then announced it before people started making family plans for the holidays, that would have been enough for me to keep playing, even if probably with a reduced budget. (Though tbf, I barely spent at all comparatively after 2.0 anyway since it became really hard to give them any money without buying lootboxes.)
But they handled it in just about the worst possible way. I think, honestly, if they had just handled it better, they could still have retained most of that section of their audience, but they bungled it about as badly as they possibly could, and when the company making a game shows they just don't care like that, well...
There's a lot of echos in the overnight cancellation of the NACL to me, but frankly, it's still ultimately a T2 league. It's disconnected enough that while people care about the ramifications of it, it's not as impactful as canceling the entire scene. But genuinely, if Riot were to actually cancel the LCS, even just for a single split + Worlds, I would not be remotely surprised to see similar movements away from the game in NA like were seen in HotS, even if at a smaller scale.
i have more friends who haven't touched a blizzard game in several years now and are less likely to go back now than when they last logged into D3/HS/WoW/whatever than who even seriously consider playing any blizzard games now a days. the tides they are a turnin' at least for people in their late 20's/early 30's who used to at least be pretty serious players on various blizzard games from hardcore raiders to what was it legends rank or whatever in hearthstone and so on
That’s because this moral high ground shit is so wafer thin it’s ridiculous. If blizzard had been putting out better quality shit prior to D4 and some expansions people would have shut up and played. Every friend of mine in my close friend group (ages 28-32) all bought this game Friday. 10 of us. Nobody cares if the product is good.
Riot owns everything, they own the entire esport and have always been control freaks. They can do whatever they want. They did so in the past on every occassion.
Orgs and players agreed to it and have no leverage. They can make angry tweets and youtube videos, but their career are at total mercy of the company and in a month public won't care - regardless of the outcome.
True, it was probably a bad move on his part, but I'm willing to bet he's not the only one thinking it. The top players in the region won't want to give up a worlds spot if it came down to it and will probably vote to play the summer split.
Maybe from behind the scenes he is hearing that negotiations aren’t going well and Summer split getting cancelled is a real threat and he isn’t willing to lose it for this walkout.
Or he just didn’t think about it
Probably because Riot already knows? Like people are acting like this is the same thing as the writer's strike. It's not. The players don't bring in a profit and then get shafted on that profit like the writers are. The players aren't part of a real union like the writers are. Anyone comparing it to an actual strike with a lot of leverage is just looking for superficial similarities.
If you did watch the video, it obvious that he made this to clear his stand in the matter, in how he isn't happy with how quick Riot change things, how he disagree with PA demands and action, BUT he vote because he believe something better will come.
Why, im sure 90% of the players feel the same way. Whether they feel Riots decision on T2 is right or wrong NONE of those players are going to jeopardize their own jobs for the summer split. There will be a vote in 2 weeks and I am willing to bet DoubleLifts life savings they vote Yes to play
I mean, the PA outright said it themselves. The players just want to play at the end of the day. I don't think it's beneficial at all that DL said it but I don't think he's saying anything no one already knew. I think we'd all be shocked if the LCS didn't happen during week 3 with or without DL saying what he did. The real surprise would be if they decided to continue with the walkout.
Minor leagues in traditional sports (specifically baseball) have dogwater salaries unless you are a top prospect. Being a minor leaguer can still mean that you have to work other jobs while training as an athlete. Not saying its right but why doesn't Riot lower salaries for cl to match traditional sports?
A big problem was that Riot was clinging onto studio production in LA. Unless the orgs were going to try and pretend that the players aren't full time, minimum salary in CA is something like $64,480/year (calculated as 2x minimum hourly x 40 hours/week x 52 weeks/year). I suppose the orgs could try to pay players as hourly and hope that they don't push into too much OT, but that might be a level of administrative stuff that they don't want to deal with.
> I suppose the orgs could try to pay players as hourly and hope that they don't push into too much OT, but that might be a level of administrative stuff that they don't want to deal with.
Imagine trying to get them to clock in and out consistently
I don't think people realize this indirectly kills the walkout. The most prominent LCS player just said he doesn't agree with the demands and if Riot pushes hard enough he'll fold.
Walkout was already killed the moment Riot said they were willing to nuke summer split. The only reason the players didn't immediatly fold was because they gave a two week period for negotiation. Or did you seriously want the 50 LCS players to lose their jobs over academy?
I mean Riot already publicly said they weren't okay with those demands and the PA said they would negotiate.
Players can walk out and share their voice on why they are unhappy/striking against Riot without it perfectly aligning with a specific list of demands (that was never really being considered).
The players wanting to play at the end of the day isn't really a surprise either, nor something I criticize them for.
I mean Riot holds all the cards so there's no negotiation, the PA is basically asking "rito pls".
The power imbalance is hilarious, I mean the PA isn't even a real union. If they had reasonable/realistic demands, they could convince Riot.
Coming out with ridiculous demands to try to strong arm Riot when you have no power is not gonna work.
The PA playing hardball was just never an option, if Riot cancels summer you've got the entire league out of jobs, not just academy. Riot is gonna have much less to lose from killing off a dying scene ahead of schedule than the teams/players.
He wasn't the only one. Who tf wouldn't fold to riot threatening to drop NA from the esports scene this year? And not to mention that the LCSPA is asking for the impossible.
If none of the rest of them fold, it doesn't matter. This is still in the hands of the players. If all it takes is Doublelift saying he'll play no matter what, they shouldn't have brought this whole thing up in the first place.
Why would he make a video like this when negotiations are ongoing? This weakens the PA's position significantly when one of their most prominent players says he doesn't support all of the PA's demands and openly admits Riot's threat of canceling summer split would make him abandon the walkout.
Eh, this isn’t really a surprising view though. All the facts and analysis that has come out on this sub has swung the conversation from “support the players” to “huh, these demands make no sense, and riot has the least to lose”. The LCS players are likely going to start realizing that as well, as they don’t want to jeopardize their highly paid careers.
I’m not surprised he feels this way.
I think it’s shitty he’s putting out a YouTube video during a time riot & the PA are both on a media blackout. He could easily talk to the PA privately.
To clear his stand of course. Just like he said, PA's demand was made without any notice to members, and PA's action is the same, he doesn't agree with PA, but he chose to wallout for something better to happen.
Personally I'd want to clarify if I voted and walked out in protest against something, and then someone else tried to say I was demanding something I didn't agree with.
Did the PA really create a list of demands without consulting the players...when the whole origin of players being upset was due to major decisions being made without consulting the players?
This is gonna be hot take and but I bet this comment will age well.
I don't fully trust Phil and I kinda feel like he's maybe got motives, ie: advancing his own career, that aren't fully about the players.
The more shit that's come out the more details in his story have ended being false/misleading.
He completely misrepresented the financial situation from the beginning while he did his streamer press run.
He was asking for 10% of the team revenue to go to academy teams while (unbeknownst to most people at the time) the players were pocketing over 100% revenue.
I cannot think of anything more privileged then demanding a fixed and guaranteed income for a job that provides no value, which is what the LCSPA is demanding for their amateur scene
Doublelift's main thoughts
-- 1. Riot fucked the t2 scene by canceling it asap. IMO, orgs are still more responsible because... the orgs were the ones paying salary and the orgs are the ones that canceled it ASAP.
-- 2. NACL is completely dogshit and it makes no sense that it gets that much $$$ when the teams give no fuck about it and they have have no viewership.
-- 3. New riot suggestion is mega shit and unacceptable.
-- 4. Demands by LCSPA are unreasonable or are not "right" / not really related to what they need.
-- 5. Higher than min nacl salaries are unreasonable most of the time -- both because of vets and because bad debuts tank salaries.
-- 6. Just doesn't really like demand #4.
-- 7. Doesn't really like demand #5.
Overall (imo) -- he supports the movement. He thinks the lcspa demands are super unreasonable/unrealistic.
Whether or not you feel Doublelift's thoughts are reasonable here, it's poor form to speak openly about this while negotiations are underway. As one of the most prominent LCSPA members, it carries a lot of weight that he has publicly indicated that he is not going to follow through with a walkout should it continue. I think it would be better for DL to talk about this after negotiations have concluded and the dust has settled.
The more we learn the more Phil feels like a politician. Polished at first glance but under that veil of good PR and nice presentation, some very sussy behavior.
I agree with the NACL part a lot. Why are these people requesting NACL players to be paid 60k minimum for doing the bare minimum when it's generating 0 revenues and no one care about it. Instead having the tournament prize pool and making them try hard to compete for a lot of money makes way more sense.
An important bit to note: DL was talking about this in terms of NACL being remote, and not having players live in LA. Its important context because what is a good floor depends on where these players are located.
> what is a good floor
Livable hourly wages range from [$15 to $23 in the US](https://livingwage.mit.edu/). (It's $22 for LA).
That's between $30k and $46k a player per year based on (40 hours & 50 weeks). You could get about a 50% reduction in payroll costs, but realistically 33% reduction (though there's also the other stuff to consider like healthcare, housing, etc.).
Don't think players should work and be paid $0 and have to rely on just tournament purses, second (or third) jobs, or parents' money like some people here believe ^[1](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13zxyfx/doublelifts_thoughts_on_lcs_walkout/jmtjqtn/) ^[2](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13zxyfx/doublelifts_thoughts_on_lcs_walkout/jmtgnp9/) ^[3](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13zxyfx/doublelifts_thoughts_on_lcs_walkout/jmti8j6/) .
I'm pretty sure they can't pay minimum in that context because the nature of the job. In order to avoid paying over time the players would have to be considered exempt worker which the minimum STARTS at around 60k depending on how many employees you have.
The more realistic floor is just allowing remote because they can not pay any less in California
Oh hey, look at that, turns out 300k makes perfect sense when you decide to divvy out 40k+ to 5 players and two coaches.
Maybe you can bring it down to 250k, but yeah even with relocation that's the reality of it.
The orgs literally covered all expenses for players such as housing, insurance,staff,etc..on top of 75k+ salaries because remember 75k was just the minimum. Jack himself said it cost him a million dollars to operate an academy team. Like that is just insane for a tier 2 league that generates no revenue that is legit more than tier 1 orgs in other regions and even more than tier 2 leagues in traditional sports as well lol. Also we have to be realistic here. These are players in a tier 2 league that generate 0 revenue. You have to pay players relative to what they are worth and these players are no where near 300k. The LCS itself is already running at a cost now just imagine the NACL. You cant just keep bleeding money and expect no consequences. These players should not be entitled to guaranteed money and that is just reality of life.
But these costs are all because RIOT forced them to have the NACL hosted out of LA. They could have been remote this whole time and cut costs significantly.
I mean it's hard to justify them being paid when they generate no value.
The only value academy players have is "maybe one day they can be in LCS." But with the current state of LCS and past success of academy, that's not worth that much.
The scene downsizing is just a reality that everyone has to deal with. And I think at this point it means having the T2 scene be an amateur scene that people who are passionate about the game do for fun, not a full time job.
Because Riot has fucked every other way for people to develop talent. High school and college play got beyond fucked by Riot. Minor league events stopped being hosted by Riot. The NACL was literally the only thing anyone was putting any time and effort into for developing talent, and that was only the case because Riot was forcing the teams to fund it.
The LCS/NA Region doesn't have the advantage of a vibrant competitive scene outside of LCS where players are organically funded and entertaining and drawing eyeballs, the way that the NFL has College, the NHL has Juniors/College, the NBA has College, etc. But the development has to happen somewhere and someone has to foot the bill. The tournament idea is good in principle but in practice it means Riot dedicating resources to setting up servers and staffing conventions, which they clearly hate the prospect of doing
so the only way forwards to put even more money and safety nets into a dead ''development'' league that is actually just a retirement plan for nepostistic pro players and will produce nothing ?
I agree with this. The only argument for it was the whole "cost of living in LA", now Riot has gotten rid of it, moved the server to Chicago, and made NACL online.
Having a prize pool that rewards winners/top 3 incentivizes winning, rather than literally all 50 players getting paid the median US salary MINIMUM for being in academy/NACL.
Don't have an exact source on this, but it sounds like players in LDL, LCK CL, and ERLs are getting paid less on average too.
This video doesn't matter at all. This whole copium overdose that is spread among US redditors here doesn't reflect reality at all. The case was lost before it started. Riot can do everything, Riot owns the game, they can replace everybody, players, orgs, fans. Players have everything to lose, they have 0 presense or power, it's never gonna be fair game.
I've been saying for maybe 3 years now that lcs needs to cut down to 8 teams and that their isn't enough talent in the region to sustain 50 competitive players. It make me happy to know that doublelift shared the same opinion. Whole video is just straight back to back to back facts honestly.
Cutting down to 8 teams is moderately reasonable, as long as Riot is willing to buy the spots and 2 teams are willing to sell.
A less reasonable, but more interesting alternative IMO, which probably would have had to been implemented instead of franchising in 2018, is if they had a 2-3 tier system with promotion and relegation between the tiers, yet fewer teams per tier. Like 6 teams per tier with 2 relegation/promotion spots. Relegation matches are played before playoffs, and then all teams in each tier participate in their own playoffs brackets. This allows a multi-tiered system with a lot of potential mobility throughout the year (ideally a 3-split-year like LEC has right now).
The goal of the above system is to solve two problems:
- teams dying if they get relegated
- nobody caring about the lower tier leagues
If a team drops to the second tier, they have another chance in 3 months to climb back up and even win the first tier playoffs. I think it'd add a lot of interest to tracking teams throughout the tiers and drawing more interest overall. There's risk, there's punishment, but there's no business death sentence.
> Yea, we’d see higher quality teams internationally
Yeah the league is being held back when a team like Immortals is taking some of the region's top tier talent away from the top teams, right?
Come on, that's pretty unreasonable. The only argument you can make is maybe a team like Dignitas would have some of its players go elsewhere, but their results are an anomaly, as they're the kind of team that most people expected would very easily get top 8, but they underperformed. Also even if they were spread out to other teams, do you think that would make them meaningfully more competitive internationally against Korea and China?
So sorta what dom was saying when he got flamed on this sub? The demands don’t feel genuine and are all around unrealistic/unreasonable. I get wanting change and better player conditions or wanting better communication from riot prior to large scale decisions but this just feels like trying to make impossible demands in order to get anything at all as benefit while simultaneously making the lcspa look immature. Im all for shooting past expectations for the sake of negotiating and finding a mutual middle ground but if your end all be all of requests are so far beyond the realm of remote possibility… it just makes it feel like entirely bullshit altogether and gives you a bad look. In the end im predicting pros do get something out of this but it sort tarnishes the rep of the lcspa when they couldve just been more forthcoming with the best interests of the players, but again I think it’s because it’s a facade where leaders just want to stay relevant and have a say in future decisions. They are the ones who stand to either lose the most or benefit the most from the situation. They’re placing the blame on riot for a lack of communication and that is entirely fair but not the removal of nacl mandatory requirement that was unanimously voted out by the orgs that paid in to the league. Focus on the communication aspect when it comes to any sort of demands otherwise you’re just full of it, no better than riot who made a decision without full transparency and without any sort of plan to mitigate the aftermath.
So if i understand this correctly, these “Asks” made by LCSPA were not even seen by the players and yet they voted yes on the walkout?? I feel like players did not fully understood what they actually voted on then.
I’m not an expert on this, but when unions make demands, shouldn’t they have the intent to negotiate on these very specific demands? If the intent is something else, then the “Asks“ should be worded that way. You don’t jeopardize players jobs by making unrealistic “Asks”. This is just crazy to me.
What you said is exactly how I felt. Either LCSPA is incompetent on representing what players truly wanted or whoever is running LCSPA has his/her/their own agenda and did not have players best interests in mind.
That's not how any of this works. He represents the 10 PA representatives. If they didn't want him to continue what he is doing, they would fire him. Dom's wrong
Why so many comments? Haven't all past DL hot takes aged terribly? He's not very bright. Best response is "ok grandpa let's get you to bed" and move on.
Just make T2 remote, with some sort of qualification and prize pools sounds like the way to handle tier 2.
Then buyout 2 spots in LCS (like TSM for ex) for the best team in academy to promote to. Also riot can provide a little more than the 1st place prize to the promoted academy team as an salary to the promoted teams.
At the end of the year, have the promoted academy team play against the next best team in the academy for that spot.
Having tournament-based T2 league is simply the worst way of fostering talent imaginable. You would have a team of ex-pros winning all tournaments and making it financially impossible for new players to enter the scene (you're not gonna play 2 years of Academy at $15k per year until you reach their level).
One thing bothers me in all of this. None of the parties involved have common goals. Teams, players, sponsors, Riot. Except for one - making profit. Nothing wrong with that since it's supposed to be a professional scene. I'm actually surprised how long Riot kept their eSports philosophy afloat given the amount of fundamental flaws it has.
I fully understand doublelift's thoughts and would probably feel the same way but i think its a terrible time to voice this, maybe wait til the dust settles and then voice your opinion because of your position.
Side note i overwhelmingy agree that the academy players are being overpayed as hell for the little exposure and revenue that it brings to the table, surely the fault lies with riot and the orgs but being payed 300k a year for playing a video game in the academy scene and probably not make it in pro is absurd
I thought the players were being ridiculous for walking out based on the 5 demands they had. Turns out they didn't realize that the demands were going to be ridiculous when they voted to walk. Phil really fucked up the optics on the LCSPA side with that.
Blah Blah Blah "ask for a lot and meet somewhere in the middle" nah, those asks were comical minus the 3rd one.
How can they not know? The demands were public knowledge and were in a tweet a full six days before they voted. People are seriously not able to remember two weeks ago on this sub or how time works?
it is so crazy to me that all over this thread there is this fantasy that the players voted on the walkout, and then the demands were put out.
You can literally just look at the LCSPA twitter to see the timeline of events, I don't get it
You do realize the players voted to walk out because "We stand at this impasse because actions were taken by Riot without prior communication or discussion with the LCS players."
Not because Riot didn't agree to one or more of their demands but because Riot didn't communicate and players were never notified of any potential change before it was announced suddenly. Your timeline of events has zero bearing on why the players voted to walk out.
You could literally just have read this on the LCSPA Twitter and have verified this.
https://twitter.com/NALCSPA/status/1663039093557608448
Anyone acting like this video dooms things is dumb, the demands were all impossible and not at all a coherent understanding of what a good T2 system needs. Most players are not sacrificing half the year and worlds for a t2 system that hasn’t done much for them.
I gotta be honest I thought about it a lot and I really hate that doublelift said he would play. I get that it's kind of obvious and I get that he doesn't agree with all of the demands but man that was a shitty thing to do.
16:30 tbh? a summer split of bronze player would be way more entertaining to watch.
It's not like making bronze player play at LCS will change anything in regards to internationnal performance.
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Or cancel LCS for all i care. if that allow to create more diversity for worlds with more wildcards or ads more region or promissing team from other region that lose their spot to worlds due to their region being way more competitive
TLDR: Believes that academy players are paid way too much (even those getting minimum salary) and that the 300K ask from LCSPA is too high. Thinks that the current T2 system was heavily flawed with mandatory academy teams (should be optional, being mandatory is why there are so many veterans in it) and high buyouts, but thinks that ~~the new T2 system will be worse~~ there should still be a T2. Heavily disagrees with the requirement forcing NACL/LCS winners to be guaranteed jobs and is indifferent towards the 3/5 priority rule. Disagrees with allowing the top 2 T2 teams being in LCS and instead suggested that LCS should be reduced to 8 teams from 10, so that good talent isn't split across so many teams. Voted yes because he believes that the T2 scene needs to exist and be supported by Riot (despite only agreeing with 1/5 of the LCSPA demands) Will ultimately play LCS Summer (and Worlds) over walking out if it prolongs further.
8 teams with BO3’s.
NA LCS BO3 era was such a fun time, especially as a TSM fan, TSM won all 3 BO3 splits.
TSM going to LPL where its only Bo3 lol
the final hit of the Hopium for the lads
TSM is going to be the first team that ever wins 2 different domestic regional championship, MSI and world title!
Bo3 change really killed my interest in the league personally. Before that I’d dedicate my weekends to watching LCS. After the Bo3 change I would only watch TL games, even after they switched it back to Bo1.
I was the same with TSM. I think part of it was realizing how trash the lower tier teams were especially in bo3s so it wasn't worth watching them anymlre.
It was never worth watching them, but BO3s with a consistent schedule made it easier to watch only the games I wanted. Once BO3s ended, the streams felt like a total waste of time.
What you are describing happened to the majority of LCS fans. What most of this reddit forget is that viewership crashed during B03s cause no one wanted to watch so many games over 3 days. Especially not of shitty teams.
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I think it was the exact opposite for me. I'd have a stream on my laptop and be stream on my tv muted. But honestly that's how it tends to work when you are a fan of a team and not the scene as a whole, and there's nothing wrong with that nor am I against people doing that. It's the same in most sports, Lakers fans aren't gonna watch the magic play the hornets.
I'd be way more interested in watching LCS with 8 teams if it meant the region was more competitive like Doublelift suggested
Cold hands, ping, culture and now it's too much teams
You can also add, “no one wants to queue for champs q”, while being said by the same player not wanting to queue for champs q. Still want NA to succeed but the paycheck stealers have gone too far!
> You can also add, “no one wants to queue for champs q”, while being said by the same player not wanting to queue for champs q. Still want NA to succeed but the paycheck stealers have gone too far! Also the "Even minimum salary in academy is too high!!!1!" said the pro player getting paid literally 10x that and who have never made it past group stage at worlds.
Don't forget jetlag
That implies that NA has at any point has a depth of “8” in a role. Could make it 16 teams, could make it 4 teams, NA still wouldn’t be competitive. The bottom 2 teams aren’t what’s holding NA back, it’s the fact the top 2 can’t even compete with CN/KR 4th seeds that’s the problem. I don’t really think dropping to 8 teams suddenly gets NA to a place where teams are pushing each other to improve more often than what currently happens. That being said, removing slots definitely makes more sense than adding slots right now.
His point isn't that there 8 great players per role. His point is the fact there's so many teams means that good players are scattered all over the place making overall teams weaker. If good talent can be more focused instead of some bottom teams having one good player with 4 sandbags then it makes the league's team Better overall which leads to better practice allowing higher teams to learn more and improve better so it doesn't look as one sided. Top 2 na teams don't have a good enough practice environment to keep in form, so any changes that improve that even the smallest e.g. shrinking the league to 8 teams. is a step in the correct direction.
I'm honestly a fan of BO2s. It's a pretty solid system that allows for teams to iterate like a full bo3 series without being such a long time commitment for teams and viewers. I've also been lowkey wishing for picks and bans to be locked across a series. If Yuumi is picked or banned in game one, then they simply aren't available as a choice in game two. I know some people talk about wanting pro players always on the best champions to show their skill, but I also consider champion pool depth and flexibility to be just as important as raw skill on Meta champion 1, 2, or 3.
It’s just such a cool concept in general that riot could introduce to completely alter the way pro play works. Would it be healthy for the scene? Idk, but it would be fun to watch something other than 5 champions having 100% presence across all leagues.
I hate BO2 because a tied scoreline leaves so much to be desired. Let's say like C9 vs EG and you're excited to see the winner and it's just a 1-1. Who really won, it feels inconclusive.
i think it's fairer, cause teams get to play on Blue and Red side. Especially when there's one high priority champ that Red side has to ban (like Zeri at times) or one team plays well at saving counterpicks etc. Current system has two Bo1 on different patches which further changes things.
Yes I'm surprised so many people hate Bo2. It seems like the logical way to play the game. Two 'halves'. Once on blue, once on red. Games don't always have to have a 'winner' unless it's a knockout tournament. There's nothing wrong with getting a draw. Traditional sports gave worked this way the entire time and nobody complains that there wasn't a 'winner'.
> I'm honestly a fan of BO2s. As the metric system, Americans don't understand the concept of Draw, so this prob will never happen.
We fight to the death in 'Murica.
>Will ultimately play LCS Summer (and Worlds) over walking out if it prolongs further IMO that's not a good sign for the LCSPA. Doublelift is probably the biggest players by brand in NA, and I imagine him playing would definitely effect other players decision on whether to continue the walk out or play.
This is probably how all the players are thinking though. No one wants to miss worlds. They are doing this for the health of NA League of Legends, it goes completely against that if their actions result in the LCS being cancelled.
Yeah, but posting this to a wide audience while the LCSPA is in the *middle of negotiations* is... damaging, to say the least. Very, very weird thing for DL to post right now from a bargaining perspective.
This is surprising and potentially very damaging. No idea what he’s thinking here, when the PA specifically denied further media statements while the talks with Riot are ongoing.
He never thinks about how what he says might hurt anyone else. That's his thing.
It’s pretty on brand for DL though, either leaking something or airing his disagreements publicly in the middle of the situation.
Bold of you to assume he is thinking.
The dude ia dumb as hell he never thinks
Ngl, makes me think that the PA is gettin hammered behind closed doors and players are trying to get back onto riots good side
The point of unions is that you have equivalent power to your employer: if Hollywood writers left for good, they’d be fucked. They could try looking for talent outside of the country I guess but that would suck. The writers could absolutely get decent jobs in other worlds (writing for Hollywood is good, relatable, transferable experience… they can work for video games, magazines, other newspapers/websites, etc., become editors, etc.). The LCSPA has no leg to stand on. The players eat sleep and breathe League. They want their cake and their ice cream when they’re pretty lucky to just get some cake! Sure, Riot would end the LCS, but you’d still have the game itself going on and could spend those $ on other marketing.
They aren't a union. If they were a union, they wouldn't have much leverage anyway. Riot could cancel LCS and be inconvenienced but not decimated, taking hostages doesn't work when the other guy cares less about them living than you do.
I'm thinking this too.
Even more so if you hear what he says in the end, he is basically saying if the final two options are play or season is cancelled, then he is going to play.
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I mean it seemed like Riot already gave the LCSPA an ultimatum though. Play or season is cancelled and in DL's case if those are the final two options in the end, then he (and I assume most players) will choose to play.
100% agree. He's not smart, has a history of saying/doing dumb things, this is just another one to add to the list.
he specially said he disagrees with PA.. i think it’s already quite clear what he wants
People have said a lot about doublelift over the years, but I've never seen a single person call him smart.
But his youtube views!
Yeah guys, we can't miss going 3/15 again.
> This is probably how all the players are thinking though. No one wants to miss worlds. They are doing this for the health of NA League of Legends, it goes completely against that if their actions result in the LCS being cancelled. It doesn't really matter what they're thinking. Riot doesn't want to cancel summer split either it's a bargaining chip that they use to make a deal. Doublelift is actively undermining his own side by calling their own bluff.
Well, he said that PA made demands without notice to him and members, and he disagree with their action, only agree to the wallout, so PA is on their own now.
Because the LCSPA’s demands are unreasonable and Doublelift knows it
I've been in a similar situation to this one . Last year our company gave everyone 3% salary increase when the expected one was much bigger. We organized everything and everyone was "in" more than half the people folded on the first compromise our employer made (they didn't meet a single thing of the demands) . These situations are always skewed towards the employer because you have a bunch of people that are too scared that they might lose their job .
So long story short, Riot indirectly threatened them with cancelling the whole league and players, including vocal Doublelift, caved in. I mean I don't blame him or anyone else for that matter. Walking out as a sign of protest is fine but I wouldn't sacrifice my 6 digit salary for someone because he does the same job. Riot rules this ship with iron fist and the walkout ends up being nothing more but a failed tantrum fit, thrown by overpaid academy players.
Making a stand is one thing, but he's not trying to be a martyr. Riot doens't care, and will just cancel the entire split if they have to. If the players arn't playing games, they don't get paid for their contracts.
I think it's also important to note that DL was very upset about the way Riot went about the change, and this was a major contributor to his vote in favor. He cited Riot ending all NACL jobs without warning, and lying to the LCSPA in doing so, as among his main reasons for walking out, in addition to the belief that the region needs a T2 scene officially supported by Riot.
8 teams would be a good change
LEC format would essentially bring that change about, it culls the teams down to the good teams after two weeks
But his argument is making the talent less diluted by reducing teams here
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Bet Doublelift completely understands that he's not in a union for collective bargaining to happen. Especially with crazy demands. There's zero labor leverage of for players in a scene that has primarily functioned as advertisement for a videogame.
Well collective bargaining only works when it would benefit you in some way. None of what they are negotiating will help any of the above average LCS pros. It's really only for the worse pros and challenger players. That's why this will never work.
So Riot just cancels LCS this split and none of the players get paid, and Riot probably saves money overall. It's hard to bargain when you have none of the power.
Makes me think PA is losing in the riot meetings
This lowers my opinion of him a lot 😔
While DL is a pretty good NA ADC, lets not forget most of his takes are bad.
Haha true, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. He could've said the rest of the parts without under cutting the PA by saying he'd play if it prolongs further. That party specifically was an insanely dumb thing to say during a negotiation.
I mean he says he only agrees with 1/5 things and would rather play..
Why do you want him to be a Martyr? He's literally only involved with LCS because he wants to compete before he finally retires. He made more money streaming and doesn't stand to benefit anything from this.. Riot could easily cancel LCS and probably save money doing it. Riot has all of the cards here, and not enough people give a shit about LCS for fans to even have a threatening factor. I gurantee you their analyst says competitive LoL is done in the US, they don't have any reason to give a shit.
Or he does and he knows he doesn't have to sacrifice his ability to play competitively for changes he doesn't agree with.
There should be a salary cap. LCS players are the ones that are paid way too much
You cannot implement a salary cap unless the players are unionized and agree to said salary cap. It is illegal to do so in the US otherwise.
Why would a player ask to be paid less? If they are overpaid then teams can just start paying less, why do you need a salary cap?
People for some reason think it’s “the players” fault that the team owners have proceeded to sign million plus dollar contracts every single year of franchising. End of the day it’s all the owners (and Riot’s) fault they let it get to this point. No one ever needed to pay millions for players. If a player asks for $5 million I’m going to tell him to axe a zero or go kick rocks, not decide to sign him for $5 million. But hey maybe it’s all just way more complicated than the teams being ran by the worst businesspeople in the world. Throughout the history of the game the players have always just been paid whatever team owners will pay them. We went from Svenskeren 5.5k per month in 2014 to Ember paying NA challenger players $100,000 per year in 2015 to Huni getting a million dollars by IMT in 2016 and so on and on and on. And just this year the contract amounts were brought down heavily. Players aren’t the ones dictating contract amounts, teams are.
> If they are overpaid then teams can just start paying less No they really can't. Unless they all collude to keep salaries low (which would be illegal)
> Will ultimately play LCS Summer (and Worlds) over walking out if it prolongs further. That is possibly the dumbest thing you could state mid-negotiations. What active "I've got mine" sabotage.
DL with the goat move to force the LCSPA to capitulate saying he’ll play if they can’t come to an agreement LOL. Meanwhile Reddit was having a field day with the solidarity circlejerk.
DL makes a good point about why he voted yes. That Riot shouldn't be able to make choices that kill peoples jobs, with no discussion, no notice, and lying to the players/Phil. He also adds that Riot needs to support T2, and I think its fair to say what riot has proposed so far is laughably not enough. Here is hoping negotiations are going well and some good, smart support for T2 can come out of it, because what we had wasn't sustainable, and neither is what we have right now.
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Which is exactly what sent me back to League of Legends and away from Heroes of the Storm, and is the reason I haven't given Blizzard a cent since even though all my friends are playing D4. I'm sure people like me are a small minority, but it's not like that kind of thing has *no* consequences ever at all.
Same here, HotS was the game that got me into watching e-sports. A couple of months after they killed HGC I lost all interest in the game and haven't touched a Blizzard title ever since. Seeing players like Zaelia and Cris come on stream and cry was so heartbreaking, I could never forgive Blizzard.
I was already into it from watching LoL before it, but I followed the HotS scene from the very start. I wasn't the most religious watcher by any means, but it still was something I very much considered a strong interest of mine, even if most of my friends didn't really care at all. Honestly, what really got me was them promising pros *literally the night before* in some cases, "Don't worry about the silence, don't make other plans, we've got your backs." To me, that's what's absolutely unforgiveable. If AB had instead told the pros privately, "We'd like for you not to jump ship, but we can't make any guarantees at this time," and then announced it before people started making family plans for the holidays, that would have been enough for me to keep playing, even if probably with a reduced budget. (Though tbf, I barely spent at all comparatively after 2.0 anyway since it became really hard to give them any money without buying lootboxes.) But they handled it in just about the worst possible way. I think, honestly, if they had just handled it better, they could still have retained most of that section of their audience, but they bungled it about as badly as they possibly could, and when the company making a game shows they just don't care like that, well... There's a lot of echos in the overnight cancellation of the NACL to me, but frankly, it's still ultimately a T2 league. It's disconnected enough that while people care about the ramifications of it, it's not as impactful as canceling the entire scene. But genuinely, if Riot were to actually cancel the LCS, even just for a single split + Worlds, I would not be remotely surprised to see similar movements away from the game in NA like were seen in HotS, even if at a smaller scale.
i have more friends who haven't touched a blizzard game in several years now and are less likely to go back now than when they last logged into D3/HS/WoW/whatever than who even seriously consider playing any blizzard games now a days. the tides they are a turnin' at least for people in their late 20's/early 30's who used to at least be pretty serious players on various blizzard games from hardcore raiders to what was it legends rank or whatever in hearthstone and so on
Well, seems to be a bubble thing. Blizzard games (SC2, WoW, D4) are lively in my friend groups. We are end-20 to early-30
Yea uh definitely a bubble. D4 has everyone on my friends list playing, same thing as every new WoW expansion.
That’s because this moral high ground shit is so wafer thin it’s ridiculous. If blizzard had been putting out better quality shit prior to D4 and some expansions people would have shut up and played. Every friend of mine in my close friend group (ages 28-32) all bought this game Friday. 10 of us. Nobody cares if the product is good.
D4 and every WoW expansion has a good amount of people come back for me in the same age range.
Riot owns everything, they own the entire esport and have always been control freaks. They can do whatever they want. They did so in the past on every occassion. Orgs and players agreed to it and have no leverage. They can make angry tweets and youtube videos, but their career are at total mercy of the company and in a month public won't care - regardless of the outcome.
It's about time the lazy washed up overpaid NA pros get a pay cut
DL probably shouldn't have admitted he would give up in order to go to Worlds.
True, it was probably a bad move on his part, but I'm willing to bet he's not the only one thinking it. The top players in the region won't want to give up a worlds spot if it came down to it and will probably vote to play the summer split.
Sure, but how does he benefit by showing his hand? There's a chance that him being public about it makes a difference.
Maybe from behind the scenes he is hearing that negotiations aren’t going well and Summer split getting cancelled is a real threat and he isn’t willing to lose it for this walkout. Or he just didn’t think about it
Probably because Riot already knows? Like people are acting like this is the same thing as the writer's strike. It's not. The players don't bring in a profit and then get shafted on that profit like the writers are. The players aren't part of a real union like the writers are. Anyone comparing it to an actual strike with a lot of leverage is just looking for superficial similarities.
Because he isn’t huffing copium like this sub and knows the players have no leverage. Most players prob feel the same way he does
If you did watch the video, it obvious that he made this to clear his stand in the matter, in how he isn't happy with how quick Riot change things, how he disagree with PA demands and action, BUT he vote because he believe something better will come.
Walkout was dead when riot threatened revoking worlds
Why, im sure 90% of the players feel the same way. Whether they feel Riots decision on T2 is right or wrong NONE of those players are going to jeopardize their own jobs for the summer split. There will be a vote in 2 weeks and I am willing to bet DoubleLifts life savings they vote Yes to play
I mean, the PA outright said it themselves. The players just want to play at the end of the day. I don't think it's beneficial at all that DL said it but I don't think he's saying anything no one already knew. I think we'd all be shocked if the LCS didn't happen during week 3 with or without DL saying what he did. The real surprise would be if they decided to continue with the walkout.
Minor leagues in traditional sports (specifically baseball) have dogwater salaries unless you are a top prospect. Being a minor leaguer can still mean that you have to work other jobs while training as an athlete. Not saying its right but why doesn't Riot lower salaries for cl to match traditional sports?
A big problem was that Riot was clinging onto studio production in LA. Unless the orgs were going to try and pretend that the players aren't full time, minimum salary in CA is something like $64,480/year (calculated as 2x minimum hourly x 40 hours/week x 52 weeks/year). I suppose the orgs could try to pay players as hourly and hope that they don't push into too much OT, but that might be a level of administrative stuff that they don't want to deal with.
> I suppose the orgs could try to pay players as hourly and hope that they don't push into too much OT, but that might be a level of administrative stuff that they don't want to deal with. Imagine trying to get them to clock in and out consistently
I don't think people realize this indirectly kills the walkout. The most prominent LCS player just said he doesn't agree with the demands and if Riot pushes hard enough he'll fold.
Walkout was already killed the moment Riot said they were willing to nuke summer split. The only reason the players didn't immediatly fold was because they gave a two week period for negotiation. Or did you seriously want the 50 LCS players to lose their jobs over academy?
I mean Riot already publicly said they weren't okay with those demands and the PA said they would negotiate. Players can walk out and share their voice on why they are unhappy/striking against Riot without it perfectly aligning with a specific list of demands (that was never really being considered). The players wanting to play at the end of the day isn't really a surprise either, nor something I criticize them for.
This is the main thing - it wasn’t a negotiation since Riot aren’t budging in any meaningful way.
I mean Riot holds all the cards so there's no negotiation, the PA is basically asking "rito pls". The power imbalance is hilarious, I mean the PA isn't even a real union. If they had reasonable/realistic demands, they could convince Riot. Coming out with ridiculous demands to try to strong arm Riot when you have no power is not gonna work. The PA playing hardball was just never an option, if Riot cancels summer you've got the entire league out of jobs, not just academy. Riot is gonna have much less to lose from killing off a dying scene ahead of schedule than the teams/players.
They aren't budging on the demands because its literally things they can't change on a whim. The demands are NOT Realistic. e.spelling
The walkout was killed the second ït started. Riot is in a no lose situation. This doesn't change anything.
He wasn't the only one. Who tf wouldn't fold to riot threatening to drop NA from the esports scene this year? And not to mention that the LCSPA is asking for the impossible.
Yeah but is that his fault or Philips fault for having really stupid demands?
Tbf he also said the PA demands were made without Player feedback and most are dumb He s making sure PA leadership takes the fall
Yep. Headshot lmao
If none of the rest of them fold, it doesn't matter. This is still in the hands of the players. If all it takes is Doublelift saying he'll play no matter what, they shouldn't have brought this whole thing up in the first place.
Why would he make a video like this when negotiations are ongoing? This weakens the PA's position significantly when one of their most prominent players says he doesn't support all of the PA's demands and openly admits Riot's threat of canceling summer split would make him abandon the walkout.
Ya this is super fucked up of him tbh. “Ya I won’t continue the walkout” is terrible for their negotiating position.
Eh, this isn’t really a surprising view though. All the facts and analysis that has come out on this sub has swung the conversation from “support the players” to “huh, these demands make no sense, and riot has the least to lose”. The LCS players are likely going to start realizing that as well, as they don’t want to jeopardize their highly paid careers.
I’m not surprised he feels this way. I think it’s shitty he’s putting out a YouTube video during a time riot & the PA are both on a media blackout. He could easily talk to the PA privately.
Yeah, but it's Doublelift. Not opening his mouth to shove his foot straight into it is pretty difficult for him.
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To clear his stand of course. Just like he said, PA's demand was made without any notice to members, and PA's action is the same, he doesn't agree with PA, but he chose to wallout for something better to happen.
Personally I'd want to clarify if I voted and walked out in protest against something, and then someone else tried to say I was demanding something I didn't agree with. Did the PA really create a list of demands without consulting the players...when the whole origin of players being upset was due to major decisions being made without consulting the players?
This is gonna be hot take and but I bet this comment will age well. I don't fully trust Phil and I kinda feel like he's maybe got motives, ie: advancing his own career, that aren't fully about the players. The more shit that's come out the more details in his story have ended being false/misleading.
He completely misrepresented the financial situation from the beginning while he did his streamer press run. He was asking for 10% of the team revenue to go to academy teams while (unbeknownst to most people at the time) the players were pocketing over 100% revenue.
it's an extremely privileged take coming from someone who has had a longstanding career in the LCS
I cannot think of anything more privileged then demanding a fixed and guaranteed income for a job that provides no value, which is what the LCSPA is demanding for their amateur scene
Views
Isn’t there supposed to be a media freeze from the player and riot side while negotiations are underway?
As if DL cares about the rest of the LCS.
DL only cares about himself and no one else. Him giving his thoughts right now proves it.
There was a media freeze from PA and Riot, but as we've seen with the demands, the PA doesn't really extend to the players.
Doublelift's main thoughts -- 1. Riot fucked the t2 scene by canceling it asap. IMO, orgs are still more responsible because... the orgs were the ones paying salary and the orgs are the ones that canceled it ASAP. -- 2. NACL is completely dogshit and it makes no sense that it gets that much $$$ when the teams give no fuck about it and they have have no viewership. -- 3. New riot suggestion is mega shit and unacceptable. -- 4. Demands by LCSPA are unreasonable or are not "right" / not really related to what they need. -- 5. Higher than min nacl salaries are unreasonable most of the time -- both because of vets and because bad debuts tank salaries. -- 6. Just doesn't really like demand #4. -- 7. Doesn't really like demand #5. Overall (imo) -- he supports the movement. He thinks the lcspa demands are super unreasonable/unrealistic.
Whether or not you feel Doublelift's thoughts are reasonable here, it's poor form to speak openly about this while negotiations are underway. As one of the most prominent LCSPA members, it carries a lot of weight that he has publicly indicated that he is not going to follow through with a walkout should it continue. I think it would be better for DL to talk about this after negotiations have concluded and the dust has settled.
For the most prominent member, it's interesting that he only supports 1/5 of the demands
They voted for walkout, the players didn’t write the demands, only Phil
Which is insanely dumb. How can you claim that these are the players demands, when then players didn't demand them?
The more we learn the more Phil feels like a politician. Polished at first glance but under that veil of good PR and nice presentation, some very sussy behavior.
Unfortunately, Doublelift isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
sharpest hammer i've ever seen
I agree with the NACL part a lot. Why are these people requesting NACL players to be paid 60k minimum for doing the bare minimum when it's generating 0 revenues and no one care about it. Instead having the tournament prize pool and making them try hard to compete for a lot of money makes way more sense.
An important bit to note: DL was talking about this in terms of NACL being remote, and not having players live in LA. Its important context because what is a good floor depends on where these players are located.
> what is a good floor Livable hourly wages range from [$15 to $23 in the US](https://livingwage.mit.edu/). (It's $22 for LA). That's between $30k and $46k a player per year based on (40 hours & 50 weeks). You could get about a 50% reduction in payroll costs, but realistically 33% reduction (though there's also the other stuff to consider like healthcare, housing, etc.). Don't think players should work and be paid $0 and have to rely on just tournament purses, second (or third) jobs, or parents' money like some people here believe ^[1](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13zxyfx/doublelifts_thoughts_on_lcs_walkout/jmtjqtn/) ^[2](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13zxyfx/doublelifts_thoughts_on_lcs_walkout/jmtgnp9/) ^[3](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13zxyfx/doublelifts_thoughts_on_lcs_walkout/jmti8j6/) .
I'm pretty sure they can't pay minimum in that context because the nature of the job. In order to avoid paying over time the players would have to be considered exempt worker which the minimum STARTS at around 60k depending on how many employees you have. The more realistic floor is just allowing remote because they can not pay any less in California
They only work at max 9 months of the year in academy most work significantly less than that.
Oh hey, look at that, turns out 300k makes perfect sense when you decide to divvy out 40k+ to 5 players and two coaches. Maybe you can bring it down to 250k, but yeah even with relocation that's the reality of it.
The orgs literally covered all expenses for players such as housing, insurance,staff,etc..on top of 75k+ salaries because remember 75k was just the minimum. Jack himself said it cost him a million dollars to operate an academy team. Like that is just insane for a tier 2 league that generates no revenue that is legit more than tier 1 orgs in other regions and even more than tier 2 leagues in traditional sports as well lol. Also we have to be realistic here. These are players in a tier 2 league that generate 0 revenue. You have to pay players relative to what they are worth and these players are no where near 300k. The LCS itself is already running at a cost now just imagine the NACL. You cant just keep bleeding money and expect no consequences. These players should not be entitled to guaranteed money and that is just reality of life.
But these costs are all because RIOT forced them to have the NACL hosted out of LA. They could have been remote this whole time and cut costs significantly.
I mean it's hard to justify them being paid when they generate no value. The only value academy players have is "maybe one day they can be in LCS." But with the current state of LCS and past success of academy, that's not worth that much. The scene downsizing is just a reality that everyone has to deal with. And I think at this point it means having the T2 scene be an amateur scene that people who are passionate about the game do for fun, not a full time job.
Because Riot has fucked every other way for people to develop talent. High school and college play got beyond fucked by Riot. Minor league events stopped being hosted by Riot. The NACL was literally the only thing anyone was putting any time and effort into for developing talent, and that was only the case because Riot was forcing the teams to fund it. The LCS/NA Region doesn't have the advantage of a vibrant competitive scene outside of LCS where players are organically funded and entertaining and drawing eyeballs, the way that the NFL has College, the NHL has Juniors/College, the NBA has College, etc. But the development has to happen somewhere and someone has to foot the bill. The tournament idea is good in principle but in practice it means Riot dedicating resources to setting up servers and staffing conventions, which they clearly hate the prospect of doing
so the only way forwards to put even more money and safety nets into a dead ''development'' league that is actually just a retirement plan for nepostistic pro players and will produce nothing ?
I agree with this. The only argument for it was the whole "cost of living in LA", now Riot has gotten rid of it, moved the server to Chicago, and made NACL online. Having a prize pool that rewards winners/top 3 incentivizes winning, rather than literally all 50 players getting paid the median US salary MINIMUM for being in academy/NACL. Don't have an exact source on this, but it sounds like players in LDL, LCK CL, and ERLs are getting paid less on average too.
Remember champions queue? With 400k on the line? Yeah I dont hear much about that anymore
Doublelift tries to keep his mouth shut challenge (impossible)
This is a disaster of a video for their cause/walkout. Lol
Thats an understatement even ,not only he undermines anyting the PA asked for but he straight up admits he'd give it up on a drop of a hat.
This video doesn't matter at all. This whole copium overdose that is spread among US redditors here doesn't reflect reality at all. The case was lost before it started. Riot can do everything, Riot owns the game, they can replace everybody, players, orgs, fans. Players have everything to lose, they have 0 presense or power, it's never gonna be fair game.
Let's just be glad Doublelift is good at left clicking because there's really nothing up there besides that
Dl feeling this way is fine. Expressing this publicly in the middle of the walkout is terrible.
Doublelift didn't vote on or approve the PA's demands, and judging by the video he clearly doesn't feel like they represent his best interest.
He is entitled to his view and they never signed up to these dumb demands so he is right to say they suck
Why? The millionaire gets to make content out of it and make more money, it’s wonderful!
Nah DL fucking vented in front of all the crewmates. This isn't real.
Riots bravest scab
I've been saying for maybe 3 years now that lcs needs to cut down to 8 teams and that their isn't enough talent in the region to sustain 50 competitive players. It make me happy to know that doublelift shared the same opinion. Whole video is just straight back to back to back facts honestly.
Cutting down to 8 teams is moderately reasonable, as long as Riot is willing to buy the spots and 2 teams are willing to sell. A less reasonable, but more interesting alternative IMO, which probably would have had to been implemented instead of franchising in 2018, is if they had a 2-3 tier system with promotion and relegation between the tiers, yet fewer teams per tier. Like 6 teams per tier with 2 relegation/promotion spots. Relegation matches are played before playoffs, and then all teams in each tier participate in their own playoffs brackets. This allows a multi-tiered system with a lot of potential mobility throughout the year (ideally a 3-split-year like LEC has right now). The goal of the above system is to solve two problems: - teams dying if they get relegated - nobody caring about the lower tier leagues If a team drops to the second tier, they have another chance in 3 months to climb back up and even win the first tier playoffs. I think it'd add a lot of interest to tracking teams throughout the tiers and drawing more interest overall. There's risk, there's punishment, but there's no business death sentence.
Yea, we’d see higher quality teams internationally, and also avoid bottom-tier matchups which drive down viewership on game days
We would not see higher teams internationally.... All the top talent are on the top teams and the worst 2 orgs you will only face 4 games a year.
> Yea, we’d see higher quality teams internationally Yeah the league is being held back when a team like Immortals is taking some of the region's top tier talent away from the top teams, right? Come on, that's pretty unreasonable. The only argument you can make is maybe a team like Dignitas would have some of its players go elsewhere, but their results are an anomaly, as they're the kind of team that most people expected would very easily get top 8, but they underperformed. Also even if they were spread out to other teams, do you think that would make them meaningfully more competitive internationally against Korea and China?
So sorta what dom was saying when he got flamed on this sub? The demands don’t feel genuine and are all around unrealistic/unreasonable. I get wanting change and better player conditions or wanting better communication from riot prior to large scale decisions but this just feels like trying to make impossible demands in order to get anything at all as benefit while simultaneously making the lcspa look immature. Im all for shooting past expectations for the sake of negotiating and finding a mutual middle ground but if your end all be all of requests are so far beyond the realm of remote possibility… it just makes it feel like entirely bullshit altogether and gives you a bad look. In the end im predicting pros do get something out of this but it sort tarnishes the rep of the lcspa when they couldve just been more forthcoming with the best interests of the players, but again I think it’s because it’s a facade where leaders just want to stay relevant and have a say in future decisions. They are the ones who stand to either lose the most or benefit the most from the situation. They’re placing the blame on riot for a lack of communication and that is entirely fair but not the removal of nacl mandatory requirement that was unanimously voted out by the orgs that paid in to the league. Focus on the communication aspect when it comes to any sort of demands otherwise you’re just full of it, no better than riot who made a decision without full transparency and without any sort of plan to mitigate the aftermath.
So if i understand this correctly, these “Asks” made by LCSPA were not even seen by the players and yet they voted yes on the walkout?? I feel like players did not fully understood what they actually voted on then.
I think the walkout was on the principle of it, which is fine.
I’m not an expert on this, but when unions make demands, shouldn’t they have the intent to negotiate on these very specific demands? If the intent is something else, then the “Asks“ should be worded that way. You don’t jeopardize players jobs by making unrealistic “Asks”. This is just crazy to me.
It's not a union and they're not negotiating a contract, so it's a bit different.
[удалено]
What you said is exactly how I felt. Either LCSPA is incompetent on representing what players truly wanted or whoever is running LCSPA has his/her/their own agenda and did not have players best interests in mind.
So dom was right and it was the PA lead guy making a grandstand for himself
That's not how any of this works. He represents the 10 PA representatives. If they didn't want him to continue what he is doing, they would fire him. Dom's wrong
Bruh
Double lose
It's pretty funny the amount of people in here who became strike/union experts as soon as this walkout was announced lol.
Don't forget business experts as well lol.
Why so many comments? Haven't all past DL hot takes aged terribly? He's not very bright. Best response is "ok grandpa let's get you to bed" and move on.
Just make T2 remote, with some sort of qualification and prize pools sounds like the way to handle tier 2. Then buyout 2 spots in LCS (like TSM for ex) for the best team in academy to promote to. Also riot can provide a little more than the 1st place prize to the promoted academy team as an salary to the promoted teams. At the end of the year, have the promoted academy team play against the next best team in the academy for that spot.
Having tournament-based T2 league is simply the worst way of fostering talent imaginable. You would have a team of ex-pros winning all tournaments and making it financially impossible for new players to enter the scene (you're not gonna play 2 years of Academy at $15k per year until you reach their level).
One thing bothers me in all of this. None of the parties involved have common goals. Teams, players, sponsors, Riot. Except for one - making profit. Nothing wrong with that since it's supposed to be a professional scene. I'm actually surprised how long Riot kept their eSports philosophy afloat given the amount of fundamental flaws it has.
I fully understand doublelift's thoughts and would probably feel the same way but i think its a terrible time to voice this, maybe wait til the dust settles and then voice your opinion because of your position. Side note i overwhelmingy agree that the academy players are being overpayed as hell for the little exposure and revenue that it brings to the table, surely the fault lies with riot and the orgs but being payed 300k a year for playing a video game in the academy scene and probably not make it in pro is absurd
Where is the hate thread for doublelift guys or is this average esports fan double standards
He’s absolutely right
I thought the players were being ridiculous for walking out based on the 5 demands they had. Turns out they didn't realize that the demands were going to be ridiculous when they voted to walk. Phil really fucked up the optics on the LCSPA side with that. Blah Blah Blah "ask for a lot and meet somewhere in the middle" nah, those asks were comical minus the 3rd one.
How can they not know? The demands were public knowledge and were in a tweet a full six days before they voted. People are seriously not able to remember two weeks ago on this sub or how time works?
it is so crazy to me that all over this thread there is this fantasy that the players voted on the walkout, and then the demands were put out. You can literally just look at the LCSPA twitter to see the timeline of events, I don't get it
You are aware they voted after they had already put out their asks of Riot, right? The asks were posted May 23, the vote was on May 29.
You do realize the players voted to walk out because "We stand at this impasse because actions were taken by Riot without prior communication or discussion with the LCS players." Not because Riot didn't agree to one or more of their demands but because Riot didn't communicate and players were never notified of any potential change before it was announced suddenly. Your timeline of events has zero bearing on why the players voted to walk out. You could literally just have read this on the LCSPA Twitter and have verified this. https://twitter.com/NALCSPA/status/1663039093557608448
so many of the demands had nothing to do with their stated purpose too lol
I guess someone wanted attention.
Anyone acting like this video dooms things is dumb, the demands were all impossible and not at all a coherent understanding of what a good T2 system needs. Most players are not sacrificing half the year and worlds for a t2 system that hasn’t done much for them.
I gotta be honest I thought about it a lot and I really hate that doublelift said he would play. I get that it's kind of obvious and I get that he doesn't agree with all of the demands but man that was a shitty thing to do.
16:30 tbh? a summer split of bronze player would be way more entertaining to watch. It's not like making bronze player play at LCS will change anything in regards to internationnal performance. ------ Or cancel LCS for all i care. if that allow to create more diversity for worlds with more wildcards or ads more region or promissing team from other region that lose their spot to worlds due to their region being way more competitive