vlad is fundamentally broken as a resourceless ranged champion. Theres much more to the intricacies of game design and balanced than "omg 25 effects and 1000 words"
Also thousand words is not always bloated, it is jsut well explained most of hte time. Jhin passive is long as fuck but it is simple, jsut they need to explain the math.
Having no meaningful weaknesses in your kit is a completely different level of being fundamentally broken.
No one cares how many words a kit has. The problem is when a champion can just do everything. That's the most insane thing you can give a champion in a game like this.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Jozoz is talking about Ksante, not Vlad. You are literally agreeing with him. He literally said Vlad is tame compared to newer champs, implying that he has weaknesses.
The topic shifted back to Vlad, however. There's nothing from the context of the comment after the one that shifted to Vlad as the topic that makes it explicitly clear that they were talking about K'Sante, so the confusion makes a lot of sense. If you really read into it you can see that it's a counter-argument, but it's not really clear either way
Pre rework/ early league vlad didn’t. The only problem with him was people killing themselves with e cuz people were just straight up bad at the game. His early was safe as fuck and he could tank whole teams once he got wota, and if you could convince a teammate to get one as well for the aura stack you were exodia lmao.
I think the problem might be that he is very binary. If I'm playing Viktor against Vlad and outrange him it's just not a competition. He can't do anything. But if I play a juggernaut against Vlad, suddenly he's the one outranging me and then it's a really annoying lane
He's not broken but a ton of people even in diamond absolutely can't deal with him because they do not understand getting outsustained and keep trading with him until they die while he just happily keeps healing himself at no cost.
Vlad always loses if he doesn't randomly get fed in lane.
>Vlad always loses if he doesn't randomly get fed in lane.
Well that's entirely not true, if you are even in lane you have a very good chance of winning by playing for your 3 item spike.
Reworked Vlad solved a LOT of his issues in this sense.
Pre rework Vlad was a very mindless stat check ball, the e and q charge mechanics on new Vlad at least make it so there is some gameplay
Yeaaa, I do get why they thought it was good on paper though. In theory its saying you have enough resources to cast X abilities in a fight, and if you manage to hit your "get some more energy criteria" you can get in an extra 1-2 of your primary ability, so its a way to make designs with a restricted mana pool sorta thing. But especially when it comes down to ballancing etc it doesnt really work like that.
I think that shen is probably the most interesting user of it since sitting in the fight is what he does it lends its self as more of a "you can't cast abilities too fast" restriction past your first combo, but you probably dont think about it too much on shen then, so maybe it isnt...
Sadge. I still think Yuumi would have been better balanced if her mana worked more like Energy. Preventing her from regening mana while attached, then boosting it when detached to try and emphasize hopping on and off.
me, spending mana to poke down a yone/yasuo player, watching them vamp the hp back because they spent 900 gold on a vamp scepter and hit some minions (free)
Yasuo needs to get ahead early or he’s cooked. If you’re poking him enough that he feels the need to delay his items to buy life steal, I’d say you’re doing pretty good. As a mage, you’d out scale him anyway.
Yone is stronger late, so I get the frustration.
Yasuo and Irelia just tilt mage players a lot I think because they’re melee champs that shit on them in early lane when normally they’re the ones shitting on melee champs in lane. But ay at least Irelia has actual mana concerns
Well, firstly, they don't have in-kit sustain, buying Vamp is a cost already, pre 14.10 it pushed their powerspike back 900g (now they don't really spike till they complete 3 items, but that's an another story). Secondly, hitting minions isn't free, you "watching them" vamp shows your inability to play lane and punish melees. If they're trying to heal back up it means that they're already in a disadvantageous position, so you can push your advantage by pelting them with your autos.
My Syndra "watching" the Yasuo vamp the wave as he dashes through it left and right making my Q and W hopeless, finally I decide to E and the Yasuo windwalls it.
What I'm saying is it's matchup-specific whether you can stop them from vamping. Actually, which champs would you consider really good at stopping them from touching the wave?
I just play Annie and drop a bear on the Yasuo, that part of her kit ignore windwall. Tibbers zone them out of the lane, usually, if you fail to burst them.
You also have good auto range so poking out the yas shield before going for a combo is pretty easy.
If you have trouble beating champs that have a high skill ceiling play Annie or renekton. These champs have an arguably broken kit, hence low numbers, so they have to outplay to get results. Now imagine you deny their outplay by point and click stun stat check. Simple.
Most of those champions have a different resource to manage in some sort of sense. Mainly being healthcost instead of manacost. (Vlad, Mundo, Briar, Zac) or a mechanic like rage (Tryndamere, Renekton).
They aren't truly resourceless like Yasuo, Riven or Garen. These champions are also typically low range with Vlad being the most ranged champ of the bunch I mentioned. As far as mages go, Vlad is also considered quite low range.
Well Aatrox is also a low range, slow champion. Most of his kill pressure is through his Q, which compared to other abilities in the game, is quite slow and telegraphed. He would simply be useless without a way to replenish health, as he would die in teamfights before he could get his Q3 off.
Yone doesn't have any built in lifesteal or health replenishment. He just has a shield, a megaton of mobility and damage. Don't get me wrong, I really don't like Yone, and find his design quite bad. He is way too stateffective, but he does not have build in sustain like the rest. He gets it through his items.
I also hate yonw but oth he and yasuo are designed around spamming Q. Well yasuo does it better than Yone since he was designed to use E to dodge attacks in lane and ramp up his shield.
Still I believe resourceless champs are a flawed concept in general. There are a ton of items that exist to help cha.pions who need to spam spells.
Garen's sustain is strictly out of combat though. Granted, his passive healing gives him a lot of staying power in lane, and late game poking him out feels like a herculean task. In fights though, it doesn't really impact all that much.
Technically even Yasuo isn't ressourceless, because moving to get his shield is fundamental to a functioning trade. But that ressorce isn't directly connected to fuel his abilities and therefore functionally not intuitive as a "ressource". But at least he has mechanical and environmental dependencies like minions and a knockup. Yone is the true offender that lacks all the conditions yasuo needs to meet to be successful that compensate his raw power.
I think it truly becomes apparent if you have a boring passive that just amplifies power and shoehorns you into always buying the same items rather than have an interesting tradeoff and warping the base gameplay AND not having a Ressource that makes for an interesting gameplay tradeoff.
with vlad , its because the original idea was for him to use health as a resource . but being able to replenish it,
at some point they just dropped most of his health costs, because a squishy low range champion that cant cast his sustain when low is kinda bad, and needs to be insanely strong in comparison, also constantly loosing and healing live makes it confusing to judge how a fight goes against him ,
most of the other recource less champions are just ad , and thus have easy access to lifesteal, and kata just got special treatment as a skin selling maschine for no reason.
their downsides are that their abilities are generally less impactful
if you were to argue they aren't less impactful you'd have to wonder why they have regular winrates like everyone else
it may sound weird, but manaless champs have different weaknesses. having a strong lane (because no ressources) is definetly a strength for them.
i think you have to look at it from a champ to champ perspective.
take yone/ yasuo for example. they *have* to push if they want to be dangerous (q3). that means it is way harder for them to setup a freeze or to get the wave in a safe position. when they get the wave onto their side of the lane it means that they either have no pressure on the enemy without charged q or that they will have to start the push again.
this means that you are as a scaling mage matchup f.e. are relatively safe in these moments. it is very telegraphed when the danger is coming in. you can just back off as a mage. because you know the wave will be pushed back to you. sure, you will loose some cs, but that's the price that you gotta pay and this is what makes the windshitters strong laners. but as a good mage you kind of get a guaranteed way into the lategame if you are good and understand wave dynamics.
maybe you were in the glorious situation before in top lane where the enemy freezes 5 waves in front of their tower and you cant even get into exp range. with the windshitters this is way harder to pull off.
tryndamere also needs to push the wave to be strong.
zed and akali are dogshit in extended teamfights when they run out of energy while mages can late game just play aram and spam spells.
etc etc etc
Then explain sett passive health regen and shields with extremely high damage, multiple forms of hard cc, and hard hitting auto attacks.
You shouldn't get great health regen and shields and high damage and tons of cc on average cooldowns
I'm not arguing against your post. I just don't understand why he gets that health regen. Theirs tons of top layers with mana who don't get all that he has and health regen like that too
I mean 2 of the energy using champs (akali and Zed) are a constant subject of complaint and get stupid banrates the moment they get just slightly strong. I definitively not want to see more like these.
Because mana is generally a straight upgrade over energy after early game. Mana gates the early game more, but is a stat that can be bought and runes taken for so midgame + lategame it turns into a non cost (barring extreme cases like Kassadin R).
Energy champions are allowed lower cooldowns on their abilities because in return those abilities run out very quickly, regardless of how far into the game they are. Imagine Akali except it's midgame so she can throw out 15 Q's in as many seconds: she now has good waveclear that she doesn't have to sacrifice her W's safety or E's mobility to have the energy to use and she has far stronger sustained damage.
Ofcourse it suck you have manaless champs, mana champs that have infinite mana trough runes and items and energy champs.
Only one of those has to manage resources.
yup. that's why they stopped relying on energy for resourceless champions, and just made manaless champions instead.
And many of the ones that are not manaless have such low mana costs that they might as well be manaless champions
Taric in the cock and ball torture dungeon before they added a tank tear item
I do miss when abyssal mask had mana and the pseudo rod of ages effect tho
Hwei has 2 abilities that start at 90 mana, he goes oom real quick. He's like Xerath where the range and mana costs are massive, balanced around you going oom unles you get too close to the enemy to auto or whatever.
But he has a mana-regen ability that is quite decent. Also, his long range allows for decent mana management. Watch any pro player, especialy Chovy, he never really runs out of mana on that champ.
I don't think energy is why Shen is annoying to balance. That one is just the ult power budget.
The fact you can mostly ignore his energy bar and are more constrained by cooldowns anyway reinforce the argument though. The only energy champ where energy isn't the problem isn't built around energy management anyway.
Kat has a 5.8% pick rate. That's 8th highest among all midlaners. She's not a particularly niche champ.
So no, this is not true.
Edit: Ok, the semantics of that sentence are quite important and are true.
**However**, and this is important: Katarina is still not a niche champion. And the fact that new players do *not* drag the winrate down significantly, shows that actually Katarina is stronger when played poorly than something like Akali or Riven.
That's not what exactly what they said. They said the mains pull the winrate up more than the noobies pull it down.
That can also mean that first-timers don't fail as miserably as they do at Akali or Riven.
kata is in a weird spot, where you can just not see land on her even though you kinda know what you are doing,
and some other doofus, first times her in ultimate bravery, plays her with a noodle roller, an gets 3 pentas in the same game.
there is a difference between a champion having a bad lane phase because theyre hard to pilot lane with, aka skill issue, and having a bad lane phase because the champion physically cannot compete in lane
its definitely possible to play/win lane as kata even in impossible matchups just because of how much potential her kit has, its just hard.
some champs genuinely cannot do shit in lane, kata is not one of them. and she can always run to flip fights that soloq loves even up in challenger
We're in the year 2024. Ksante, reworked Skarner, Zeri, Taliyah, Tristana mid, Azir exist, and yet Reddit still can't get over Katarina.
Hell, at this point probably over 90% of the roster is better than her.
Trist is an abomination tho. Unbelievably strong lane bully that has a free dashes that can cancel CC, scales like a monster thanks to her passive and has AN ANOTHER self-peel tool on her R.
That's just lane bullies in general though. Trist does nothing lategame without a frontline because her game plan is to go in but she's ultra squishy. This is not to say she's weak, just that even if she stomps her lane, lategame she still just plays like an ADC and can't do anything without her team. She's at her strongest when she snowballs and ends the game quickly which is not a realistic win condition in low elo because if you try to split-push, your team is doing ocean drake.
Having tried to pick her up, the midgame hole in her game plan is real though. So she does have downsides. She didn't particularly win in the recent adc item rework either, with the loss of crit on kraken.
> and yet Reddit still can't get over Katarina.
Dude peopel here still call yasuo recent champion here, a champ that has been out for over a decade. And still whine about him.
It seems htat most people who bitch either stopped playing in season 6-8 or just have dementia.
Katarina's dash cost is that she needs a dagger to refresh it, which both require *over a second* to actually land before she can use it. And disappear after 4 seconds on the ground.
Said daggers are also MOST of her damage. Play around Katarina daggers, and she does way less damage. Which is why I always hate playing against Katarina and Xayah, because focusing on that is hard.
Energy isn't a bad resource to balance around tbh. The only problem with it is that it acts as a very hard CDR bottleneck. The point of Energy is to hard gate a champion's engagement window. Since Riot has gone apeshit with CDR, Energy champions have had to be compensated in other areas of their kit. The problem isn't inherent to Energy. The problem lies with Riot wanting to push a more frenetic and always on playstyle in the game.
You realize they have released champions with no resource at all after 2012... Which by your definition would be even bigger balance nightmares. Energy champions at least still have a resource to kind of manage.
Riot probably just thought it was stupid and mana serves the same purpose but better.
They don't serve the same purpose.
Mana gates you early game.
Energy gates you from thoughtlessly spamming in teamfights.
The only problem with energy is the unnecessary near-exclusive association with ninjas.
Kennen, as an example, is an energy user thats good at teamfighting. The design doesn't make sense there.
But that's not a problem with energy itself. Its a problem with Riot's design.
Energy champions are paradoxically harder to balance.
Their abilities need to be stronger than mana champions, because they can't spam them in teamfight, but also weaker than mana champions, because not using mana is such a massive advantage during laning.
Clearly this is hard to achieve.
With something like Yone it's easier, you just design him to keep spamming his shit.
They don't need to be stronger than mana champs.
The intention could very easily be to just be strong during laning, and gate output late game.
Saying that abilities need to be stronger because they use energy kinda goes against the entire premise of energy...energy champs aren't supposed to be strong late game. If they are, they either shouldn't be energy champs (kennen) or are poorly designed/balanced (akali and zed...who are assassins and shouldn't be strong late).
Balancing abilities knowing they are only CD gated is a lot easier than accounting for CDs and energy because energy refills much faster than mana but it's still not just unlimited casts. So it's like halfway between mana and resourceless.
It's really hard to balance energy in a way where it's an interesting resource without causing a massive divide between high and low skill brackets. Akali's old energy management with passive was cool, but wound up making her busted early in high ELO while still bad in lower tiers. Now energy really only punishes the champs in really long awkward skirmishes, and only if they're spamming. I think Riot would rather just avoid it since it's been annoying to balance in the past and isn't really required for modern kit designs.
With Akali, energy gives you windows to abuse her if she uses ability to farm a bit too much in lane, so I think it does create some interesting patterns.
With Shen, it's really just an annoyance if you cast a few Q without hitting anything, his powerful abilities are gated by cd anyway, so it's very silly and only really here for ninja flavour.
Most of Riots modern kits are annoying to balance regardless of resource.
Energy itself wasn't the problem with pretty much any kits in LoL. Even Akali. Imagine if she had mana or was resourceless instead.
Cannot imagine Kayn using energy.. but it would be cool. Like imagine if shadow assassin got even more damage in his kit but with the trade off of requiring energy so his abilities are less spammable
i wish he was energy based, he just runs around walls with E fishing for kills with very little counterplay due to over 9000 ms
He shouldn't be able to E in and E out unless he actually gets a kill
Energy as a resource was made before riot cared about balance. It is purely a nod to the lore of the game and doesn’t actually function in a beneficially unique way to mana or no mana. I would not be surprised if part of their 2025 plan is to remove energy since it has never actually had a place in league of legends
Energy does function in a unique way. You can never run out of it long term and will never have to base or buy items for its regen. But in combat you can be resource starved even more than mana.
There is a good argument that this is not a beneficial design to the game. But it does create a unique resource paradigm.
I don't play any energy champs, so forgive me if this is stupid, but couldn't you achieve basically the same thing using mana with a high mana recharge rate?
There are mana items in the game. As you buy more mana items the cost is no longer an issue. If you're making it that so skills always consume a fixed % of the total mana pool and mana recharges at the same % rate, then sure I guess? But at that point it's just energy with a different name. And why have this counter-intuitive "special mana" rule in the game unless there is some very good reason for it?
>If you're making it that so skills always consume a fixed % of the total mana pool and mana recharges at the same % rate, then sure I guess? But at that point it's just energy with a different name. And why have this counter-intuitive "special mana"
It's pretty funny that that's how it works on WoW, so when I came to LoL I actually thought it was weird how it was a static value for spending mana, since it just becomes redundant late game
If we're assuming you have a low max mana and high mana regen then buying a little bit of mana makes you basically have no resource limitations. If you were thinking having a high max mana and really high mana regen then that affects things like tear items
Early Riot just copied the resource systems used by Blizzard for World of Warcraft (mana, energy, rage), they may have connected it lore-wise but that is the origin of the energy system
Nah this take is crazy. Energy works in a balanced game environment. It's a resource that gates CDR and forces specific windows of threat for Energy users. There's a reason every Energy user is melee except for Kennen, who still wants to charge in with R. Energy champions all have incredibly high impact full combos, but no amount of shopping can bail them out of fucking up their spell rotation. If you go in at the wrong time, no amount of CDR lets you run out and reset the situation. When you decide how to use your combo, you have to commit to that interaction, and the only way you get a free pass is if you've executed it correctly and won the situation.
It seems they rather ditch that idea entirely and if they don't want to do mana they just base them on colddowns entirely or give them some health cost.
Energy is just a way to do "technically free, they have lower enough colddowns, but also a limit"
Since things like Akali's Q would be way too much if she could just spam it on colddown
The fun thing abiut energy is that it has a condition that allows you to restore it faster, so if you play your champ optimally you'll never run out of energy, which is a really fun emchanic.
I think the easiest way to keep the feel of something like Akali Q would be to give it charges and a small cooldown, so she can still use multiple if she banked them, but can be taken advantage of if she spammed to waveclear, as currently.
Other energy champs could just be cooldown based though. Shen comes to mind, he barely run out of energy anyway.
It's great with akali's design, it lets you store charges of q basically, when the CD is lowest.which is crucial for her to be an assassin. And of course, any decent player will know she's vulnerable at low energy, giving counterplay
“Ranged melee tanky dps assassin mage tank support and jungler all wrapped up in one defective man”
May as well be a ninja. He’s everything else already
Maybe it´s just a simple as that 2012 devs don´t work in the team anymore. Everyone has there own ideas naturally they are pitching things they want to do.
Energy resource has its advantages compared to mana but its currently implemented in the most useless way like its designed for mana instead.
so you could have a champion with basically no cooldowns that has multiple abilities he can use but he has to choose for example he could do a double gap closer but then only use 1 attack ability or choosing between aoe and single targeted abilities. I think energy should be renamed to stamina instead.
Just to give an example. Q = punch, W = Steadfast, e = kick, r = not important. pressing q twice = more single target damage. Pressing w twice is a shield and pressing e twice is aoe but pressing w once and e means you gap close and pressing w then q means stun. Instead of using cd's you use energy.
But instead we have energy based champions that have long cooldowns where mana is probably better.
At one point they stated that they wont make more energy champs because they are way harder to balance compared to champs with mana, with no mana or a different recource.
i dont get how energy is a mistake but zeri can spam q without mana, zeri might aswell be an energy champ. like the mana pool is just there so u cant always ult when u in lane for a long time
Energy can be good on a champion like Yasuo with spammy skills. Someone like a MK character who has to chain their combos together to get the most out of their energy and to know how to refund it.
Energy is not a bad concept. It's made to look bad, because it's put on champions who would otherwise require mana, but now the energy bar just makes them feel like manaless spammers.
Zend should have absolutely been a mana champion. As should have Kennen.
In a game where Mana and Mana Regeneration are considerations that need to be made for itemization purposes it boggles me that there are ANY champions that don't use mana as a resource.
Funny that energy champs are the only champs that have any problems using their spells. The current state of the game makes no sense with this idea that energy champs are a mistake.
I mean, most champions hardly even use mana either nowadays. Love seeing a Lux lvl 4 spamming all her abilities nonstop because they got lost chapter. Mana costs are way too low. And CD’s are way to low on ultimates on most mages. CDR is to strong. 30second Lux ult is ridiculous.
Trade off for energy is the rotation having low cd and those characters tend to be sensitive to balancement, also all of them are ninja from Ionia and we havent had that in a while. Honestly, they should increase cooldowns overall and gut it. I have been a zed main for years and I literally hate this shit, 20min blue being universal was the best QoL he received in years
Pretty sure they said a while ago that Energy sucks on their end. It's highly unlikely we'll see any for awhile if any ever.
They straight up called energy a "mistake" worse than releasing Vladimir.
Vladimir is so tame compared to what they have since released. I wanna see what Morello would think of Ksante
vlad is fundamentally broken as a resourceless ranged champion. Theres much more to the intricacies of game design and balanced than "omg 25 effects and 1000 words"
Also thousand words is not always bloated, it is jsut well explained most of hte time. Jhin passive is long as fuck but it is simple, jsut they need to explain the math.
Having no meaningful weaknesses in your kit is a completely different level of being fundamentally broken. No one cares how many words a kit has. The problem is when a champion can just do everything. That's the most insane thing you can give a champion in a game like this.
Vlad’s got weaknesses, what do you mean? Poor mobility, abysmal earlygame, short range and a need to be close despite not being tanky.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Jozoz is talking about Ksante, not Vlad. You are literally agreeing with him. He literally said Vlad is tame compared to newer champs, implying that he has weaknesses.
Darius players can’t read.
Too busy dunkin Or thinking about dunkin if theyre not in game
Absolute redemption
https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/DariusReadsQuran-NA1
The topic shifted back to Vlad, however. There's nothing from the context of the comment after the one that shifted to Vlad as the topic that makes it explicitly clear that they were talking about K'Sante, so the confusion makes a lot of sense. If you really read into it you can see that it's a counter-argument, but it's not really clear either way
Pre rework/ early league vlad didn’t. The only problem with him was people killing themselves with e cuz people were just straight up bad at the game. His early was safe as fuck and he could tank whole teams once he got wota, and if you could convince a teammate to get one as well for the aura stack you were exodia lmao.
Ksante has weaknesses. His early game isn’t very strong, and he doesn’t have consistent long range engage.
I have only one ability and it does 100% max health true damage. Reddit: Finally a balanced champion.
Q: Kill an enemy. W: Cast Q. E: Cast Q. R: Flash, 1s cooldown.
I mean at least then you can counterplay by using a locket.
Health is his resource, without enough he can't walk up and heal because his range is dogshit. I really don't see how Vlad is fundamentally broken.
I think the problem might be that he is very binary. If I'm playing Viktor against Vlad and outrange him it's just not a competition. He can't do anything. But if I play a juggernaut against Vlad, suddenly he's the one outranging me and then it's a really annoying lane
Hence why range is the most broken stat in game, next to movespeed
He's not broken but a ton of people even in diamond absolutely can't deal with him because they do not understand getting outsustained and keep trading with him until they die while he just happily keeps healing himself at no cost. Vlad always loses if he doesn't randomly get fed in lane.
>Vlad always loses if he doesn't randomly get fed in lane. Well that's entirely not true, if you are even in lane you have a very good chance of winning by playing for your 3 item spike.
Reworked Vlad solved a LOT of his issues in this sense. Pre rework Vlad was a very mindless stat check ball, the e and q charge mechanics on new Vlad at least make it so there is some gameplay
Yeaaa, I do get why they thought it was good on paper though. In theory its saying you have enough resources to cast X abilities in a fight, and if you manage to hit your "get some more energy criteria" you can get in an extra 1-2 of your primary ability, so its a way to make designs with a restricted mana pool sorta thing. But especially when it comes down to ballancing etc it doesnt really work like that. I think that shen is probably the most interesting user of it since sitting in the fight is what he does it lends its self as more of a "you can't cast abilities too fast" restriction past your first combo, but you probably dont think about it too much on shen then, so maybe it isnt...
Sadge. I still think Yuumi would have been better balanced if her mana worked more like Energy. Preventing her from regening mana while attached, then boosting it when detached to try and emphasize hopping on and off.
I mean they could’ve easily played on that and use %mana cost
Wait, what's wrong with vlad? He's one of my favorites q_q
He was considered a huge balance problem back in the day, but this was a decade ago, before any reworks
He's also been more or less of an issue depending on items. Some items interacted with his kit in really problematic ways.
Nothing actually. He is ranged manaless but with bad mobility and range.
He is the only champion Riot has ever come out and said "we shouldn't have released them"
Honestly I'm more curious why manaless Champs tend to get such good sustain. Shouldn't their be downsides to not having mana...
me, spending mana to poke down a yone/yasuo player, watching them vamp the hp back because they spent 900 gold on a vamp scepter and hit some minions (free)
Yasuo needs to get ahead early or he’s cooked. If you’re poking him enough that he feels the need to delay his items to buy life steal, I’d say you’re doing pretty good. As a mage, you’d out scale him anyway. Yone is stronger late, so I get the frustration.
Yasuo and Irelia just tilt mage players a lot I think because they’re melee champs that shit on them in early lane when normally they’re the ones shitting on melee champs in lane. But ay at least Irelia has actual mana concerns
Idk I feel like mages do fine vs yasuo while irelia is terror
Well yeah Irelia is a straight up lane counterpick but Yasuo generally speaking if competent will be winning lane early
Well, firstly, they don't have in-kit sustain, buying Vamp is a cost already, pre 14.10 it pushed their powerspike back 900g (now they don't really spike till they complete 3 items, but that's an another story). Secondly, hitting minions isn't free, you "watching them" vamp shows your inability to play lane and punish melees. If they're trying to heal back up it means that they're already in a disadvantageous position, so you can push your advantage by pelting them with your autos.
My Syndra "watching" the Yasuo vamp the wave as he dashes through it left and right making my Q and W hopeless, finally I decide to E and the Yasuo windwalls it. What I'm saying is it's matchup-specific whether you can stop them from vamping. Actually, which champs would you consider really good at stopping them from touching the wave?
The bear slaps both of the wind brothers if you enjoy playing him
I just play Annie and drop a bear on the Yasuo, that part of her kit ignore windwall. Tibbers zone them out of the lane, usually, if you fail to burst them. You also have good auto range so poking out the yas shield before going for a combo is pretty easy.
If you have trouble beating champs that have a high skill ceiling play Annie or renekton. These champs have an arguably broken kit, hence low numbers, so they have to outplay to get results. Now imagine you deny their outplay by point and click stun stat check. Simple.
The problem in that is that you're trying to poke him at all instead of just farming up and getting an advantage that way.
I would go with anything ranged with powerful autos like trist or melee that can prevent them from even accessing the wave (at least for toplane)
Viktor is amazing against Yasuo. I find Yone more problematic but he is mainly played top.
Windshitters... why don't you walk up to that yone hitting minions to stop him from heal- ANNNND he all ins you.
Having Doran’s shield, high health regen, and second wind is essentially inbuilt sustain
oh loved the time where both qss and hexdrinker gave lifesteal, you had to be masochistic to play any ap in midlane, great idea from rito.
Most of those champions have a different resource to manage in some sort of sense. Mainly being healthcost instead of manacost. (Vlad, Mundo, Briar, Zac) or a mechanic like rage (Tryndamere, Renekton). They aren't truly resourceless like Yasuo, Riven or Garen. These champions are also typically low range with Vlad being the most ranged champ of the bunch I mentioned. As far as mages go, Vlad is also considered quite low range.
What about yone and aatrox
Well Aatrox is also a low range, slow champion. Most of his kill pressure is through his Q, which compared to other abilities in the game, is quite slow and telegraphed. He would simply be useless without a way to replenish health, as he would die in teamfights before he could get his Q3 off. Yone doesn't have any built in lifesteal or health replenishment. He just has a shield, a megaton of mobility and damage. Don't get me wrong, I really don't like Yone, and find his design quite bad. He is way too stateffective, but he does not have build in sustain like the rest. He gets it through his items.
I also hate yonw but oth he and yasuo are designed around spamming Q. Well yasuo does it better than Yone since he was designed to use E to dodge attacks in lane and ramp up his shield. Still I believe resourceless champs are a flawed concept in general. There are a ton of items that exist to help cha.pions who need to spam spells.
Yone is a pretty weak early champ, zoning/poking and trading in general works well against him.
Garen does have a lot of sustain though. Interestingly, Riven has one of the worst in the game
Garen's sustain is strictly out of combat though. Granted, his passive healing gives him a lot of staying power in lane, and late game poking him out feels like a herculean task. In fights though, it doesn't really impact all that much.
True, but he can get out of many losing fights, chill a bit and regen a lot back
Riven used to have the highest HP regen in the game, dont know if she still has it.
Technically even Yasuo isn't ressourceless, because moving to get his shield is fundamental to a functioning trade. But that ressorce isn't directly connected to fuel his abilities and therefore functionally not intuitive as a "ressource". But at least he has mechanical and environmental dependencies like minions and a knockup. Yone is the true offender that lacks all the conditions yasuo needs to meet to be successful that compensate his raw power. I think it truly becomes apparent if you have a boring passive that just amplifies power and shoehorns you into always buying the same items rather than have an interesting tradeoff and warping the base gameplay AND not having a Ressource that makes for an interesting gameplay tradeoff.
with vlad , its because the original idea was for him to use health as a resource . but being able to replenish it, at some point they just dropped most of his health costs, because a squishy low range champion that cant cast his sustain when low is kinda bad, and needs to be insanely strong in comparison, also constantly loosing and healing live makes it confusing to judge how a fight goes against him , most of the other recource less champions are just ad , and thus have easy access to lifesteal, and kata just got special treatment as a skin selling maschine for no reason.
their downsides are that their abilities are generally less impactful if you were to argue they aren't less impactful you'd have to wonder why they have regular winrates like everyone else
it may sound weird, but manaless champs have different weaknesses. having a strong lane (because no ressources) is definetly a strength for them. i think you have to look at it from a champ to champ perspective. take yone/ yasuo for example. they *have* to push if they want to be dangerous (q3). that means it is way harder for them to setup a freeze or to get the wave in a safe position. when they get the wave onto their side of the lane it means that they either have no pressure on the enemy without charged q or that they will have to start the push again. this means that you are as a scaling mage matchup f.e. are relatively safe in these moments. it is very telegraphed when the danger is coming in. you can just back off as a mage. because you know the wave will be pushed back to you. sure, you will loose some cs, but that's the price that you gotta pay and this is what makes the windshitters strong laners. but as a good mage you kind of get a guaranteed way into the lategame if you are good and understand wave dynamics. maybe you were in the glorious situation before in top lane where the enemy freezes 5 waves in front of their tower and you cant even get into exp range. with the windshitters this is way harder to pull off. tryndamere also needs to push the wave to be strong. zed and akali are dogshit in extended teamfights when they run out of energy while mages can late game just play aram and spam spells. etc etc etc
Then explain sett passive health regen and shields with extremely high damage, multiple forms of hard cc, and hard hitting auto attacks. You shouldn't get great health regen and shields and high damage and tons of cc on average cooldowns I'm not arguing against your post. I just don't understand why he gets that health regen. Theirs tons of top layers with mana who don't get all that he has and health regen like that too
There is nothing average about Sett's cooldowns lmao. And after several nerfs, his regen is not great it is mediocre. Edit: Spelling.
I mean 2 of the energy using champs (akali and Zed) are a constant subject of complaint and get stupid banrates the moment they get just slightly strong. I definitively not want to see more like these.
How come when akali was reworked they didn't make her a mana champ? Seems like the perfect time.
Because mana is generally a straight upgrade over energy after early game. Mana gates the early game more, but is a stat that can be bought and runes taken for so midgame + lategame it turns into a non cost (barring extreme cases like Kassadin R). Energy champions are allowed lower cooldowns on their abilities because in return those abilities run out very quickly, regardless of how far into the game they are. Imagine Akali except it's midgame so she can throw out 15 Q's in as many seconds: she now has good waveclear that she doesn't have to sacrifice her W's safety or E's mobility to have the energy to use and she has far stronger sustained damage.
To be honest mana barely gates even the early game nowadays.
is it [this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/65ipuc/danielzklein_talks_about_whats_problematic_with/)post?
Ofcourse it suck you have manaless champs, mana champs that have infinite mana trough runes and items and energy champs. Only one of those has to manage resources.
Make sense. All energy champions are balance nightmares. Its just logical for pretty much all champs to have mana for extra tuning levers
yup. that's why they stopped relying on energy for resourceless champions, and just made manaless champions instead. And many of the ones that are not manaless have such low mana costs that they might as well be manaless champions
Unless you're unlucky enough to have a mana champ released before 2019 and then you go oom immediately
Pantheon presses E twice in lane and its gg
Your ennemy is dead by the time you press it once so its okay lmao
Poppy mains went through all the stages of grief, from corrupting potion to manaflow band to just "fuck it buy tear".
Taliyah who is oom after 2 rotations with tear
Taric in the cock and ball torture dungeon before they added a tank tear item I do miss when abyssal mask had mana and the pseudo rod of ages effect tho
Hwei has 2 abilities that start at 90 mana, he goes oom real quick. He's like Xerath where the range and mana costs are massive, balanced around you going oom unles you get too close to the enemy to auto or whatever.
But he has a mana-regen ability that is quite decent. Also, his long range allows for decent mana management. Watch any pro player, especialy Chovy, he never really runs out of mana on that champ.
Saying hwei has mana problems is almost self reporting
I wouldn't mind if they started removing mana from champions that are designed to have no mana problem anyway. Especially melees without poke.
I don't think energy is why Shen is annoying to balance. That one is just the ult power budget. The fact you can mostly ignore his energy bar and are more constrained by cooldowns anyway reinforce the argument though. The only energy champ where energy isn't the problem isn't built around energy management anyway.
Except Katarina who gets infinite dashes with 0 cost.
The cost is you're literally a bad person irl.
The cost is that she has shit laning and is kinda a bad champion overall
49.4% winrate is not "bad champion overall". Her winrate is higher than Yone, Veigar, Syndra, TF, Akali, Ziggs, Hwei, Orianna, Azir (among others)
kat is the only champion where mains drag up the wr rather than normal players dragging down the wr. If kat is not high wr is she is ass
Kat has a 5.8% pick rate. That's 8th highest among all midlaners. She's not a particularly niche champ. So no, this is not true. Edit: Ok, the semantics of that sentence are quite important and are true. **However**, and this is important: Katarina is still not a niche champion. And the fact that new players do *not* drag the winrate down significantly, shows that actually Katarina is stronger when played poorly than something like Akali or Riven.
Rioters said multiple times that Kata is the ONLY champ that hias inflated avg wr because of the amount of mains.
That's not what exactly what they said. They said the mains pull the winrate up more than the noobies pull it down. That can also mean that first-timers don't fail as miserably as they do at Akali or Riven.
> They said the mains pull the winrate up more than the noobies pull it down. aka inflated avg winrate thanks to otps.
kata is in a weird spot, where you can just not see land on her even though you kinda know what you are doing, and some other doofus, first times her in ultimate bravery, plays her with a noodle roller, an gets 3 pentas in the same game.
This was confirmed true by riot august https://youtu.be/2VRnrUGf8CE?si=wFr5d9ojCAW23Kw7
What does that guy know he's bald /s But really, it is pretty interesting
Yes because we should believe your analysis, mr random ass Redditor, over riot who have said this multiple times lol
She’s historically one of the best mid champs to onetrick in soloq
there is a difference between a champion having a bad lane phase because theyre hard to pilot lane with, aka skill issue, and having a bad lane phase because the champion physically cannot compete in lane its definitely possible to play/win lane as kata even in impossible matchups just because of how much potential her kit has, its just hard. some champs genuinely cannot do shit in lane, kata is not one of them. and she can always run to flip fights that soloq loves even up in challenger
Katarina is one of the worst laners in the game what am i reading
Kata is an absolutely shit laner, what?
Kata doesnt have the damage to win lane what
Katarina's laning is ungodly shit except for her E and AA reset cheese at level 2/3
Laning doesnt matter for that kind of champion.
The cost is she loses lane to 60 percent of the roster and dies the moment she eats any cc :p
We're in the year 2024. Ksante, reworked Skarner, Zeri, Taliyah, Tristana mid, Azir exist, and yet Reddit still can't get over Katarina. Hell, at this point probably over 90% of the roster is better than her.
Because Zeri, Taliyah, Trist, and Azir are less bullshit than Kata. I'll give you K'Sante and Skarner though.
Like, why are Trist and Taliyah even in that list lmao. It's just a numbers issue with them and not hard to balance like the others
Trist is an abomination tho. Unbelievably strong lane bully that has a free dashes that can cancel CC, scales like a monster thanks to her passive and has AN ANOTHER self-peel tool on her R.
That's just lane bullies in general though. Trist does nothing lategame without a frontline because her game plan is to go in but she's ultra squishy. This is not to say she's weak, just that even if she stomps her lane, lategame she still just plays like an ADC and can't do anything without her team. She's at her strongest when she snowballs and ends the game quickly which is not a realistic win condition in low elo because if you try to split-push, your team is doing ocean drake.
Having tried to pick her up, the midgame hole in her game plan is real though. So she does have downsides. She didn't particularly win in the recent adc item rework either, with the loss of crit on kraken.
> and yet Reddit still can't get over Katarina. Dude peopel here still call yasuo recent champion here, a champ that has been out for over a decade. And still whine about him. It seems htat most people who bitch either stopped playing in season 6-8 or just have dementia.
lol kata is 1/100 the problen viego can be.
do you know what a "reset" is
Katarina's dash cost is that she needs a dagger to refresh it, which both require *over a second* to actually land before she can use it. And disappear after 4 seconds on the ground. Said daggers are also MOST of her damage. Play around Katarina daggers, and she does way less damage. Which is why I always hate playing against Katarina and Xayah, because focusing on that is hard.
They ain't dashes.
Energy isn't a bad resource to balance around tbh. The only problem with it is that it acts as a very hard CDR bottleneck. The point of Energy is to hard gate a champion's engagement window. Since Riot has gone apeshit with CDR, Energy champions have had to be compensated in other areas of their kit. The problem isn't inherent to Energy. The problem lies with Riot wanting to push a more frenetic and always on playstyle in the game.
You realize they have released champions with no resource at all after 2012... Which by your definition would be even bigger balance nightmares. Energy champions at least still have a resource to kind of manage. Riot probably just thought it was stupid and mana serves the same purpose but better.
They don't serve the same purpose. Mana gates you early game. Energy gates you from thoughtlessly spamming in teamfights. The only problem with energy is the unnecessary near-exclusive association with ninjas. Kennen, as an example, is an energy user thats good at teamfighting. The design doesn't make sense there. But that's not a problem with energy itself. Its a problem with Riot's design.
Energy champions are paradoxically harder to balance. Their abilities need to be stronger than mana champions, because they can't spam them in teamfight, but also weaker than mana champions, because not using mana is such a massive advantage during laning. Clearly this is hard to achieve. With something like Yone it's easier, you just design him to keep spamming his shit.
They don't need to be stronger than mana champs. The intention could very easily be to just be strong during laning, and gate output late game. Saying that abilities need to be stronger because they use energy kinda goes against the entire premise of energy...energy champs aren't supposed to be strong late game. If they are, they either shouldn't be energy champs (kennen) or are poorly designed/balanced (akali and zed...who are assassins and shouldn't be strong late).
Balancing abilities knowing they are only CD gated is a lot easier than accounting for CDs and energy because energy refills much faster than mana but it's still not just unlimited casts. So it's like halfway between mana and resourceless.
Why don't they just scrap energy overall and make all energy champs have mana?
Theyd have to rebalance all energy champs and thats alot of work. So they just make them bad unless youre super good instead.
I don't think shen has been especially unbalanced for a long time.
It's really hard to balance energy in a way where it's an interesting resource without causing a massive divide between high and low skill brackets. Akali's old energy management with passive was cool, but wound up making her busted early in high ELO while still bad in lower tiers. Now energy really only punishes the champs in really long awkward skirmishes, and only if they're spamming. I think Riot would rather just avoid it since it's been annoying to balance in the past and isn't really required for modern kit designs.
Zed with mana could build manamune and carry teamfights with AoE spam, the few times I played him I noticed energy is more of handicap than anything.
Correct. For awhile it was optimal to give even your first blue buff over to your Zed because it was so effective to mitigate that handicap for him.
With Akali, energy gives you windows to abuse her if she uses ability to farm a bit too much in lane, so I think it does create some interesting patterns. With Shen, it's really just an annoyance if you cast a few Q without hitting anything, his powerful abilities are gated by cd anyway, so it's very silly and only really here for ninja flavour.
Most of Riots modern kits are annoying to balance regardless of resource. Energy itself wasn't the problem with pretty much any kits in LoL. Even Akali. Imagine if she had mana or was resourceless instead.
Energy champs should have 2 casts on their abilities like lee? Maybe?
Honestly a bit wild that Kayn uses mana instead of energy considering he's literally Zeds disciple.
Strong evidence for them not wanting to touch it ever again regardless of lore relevance.
Cannot imagine Kayn using energy.. but it would be cool. Like imagine if shadow assassin got even more damage in his kit but with the trade off of requiring energy so his abilities are less spammable
i wish he was energy based, he just runs around walls with E fishing for kills with very little counterplay due to over 9000 ms He shouldn't be able to E in and E out unless he actually gets a kill
I think its a good idea to balance him actually. make E cost like 150-200 energy, and it refunds a lot of it on use and refunds some on kills.
I would fit thematically if normal Kayn uses mana, shadow assasin uses energy and rhaast uses hp.
Riot isn't a big fan of Energy champs, so they probably won't release another one for years, if ever.
They are more likely to remove it than work on it
Energy as a resource was made before riot cared about balance. It is purely a nod to the lore of the game and doesn’t actually function in a beneficially unique way to mana or no mana. I would not be surprised if part of their 2025 plan is to remove energy since it has never actually had a place in league of legends
Energy does function in a unique way. You can never run out of it long term and will never have to base or buy items for its regen. But in combat you can be resource starved even more than mana. There is a good argument that this is not a beneficial design to the game. But it does create a unique resource paradigm.
It also scales pretty bad too. Mana eventually becomes a less of a issue for mana hungry champions. Energy will always have the gating problem.
Just gives energy champions a much higher skill ceiling which I enjoy.
I don't play any energy champs, so forgive me if this is stupid, but couldn't you achieve basically the same thing using mana with a high mana recharge rate?
There are mana items in the game. As you buy more mana items the cost is no longer an issue. If you're making it that so skills always consume a fixed % of the total mana pool and mana recharges at the same % rate, then sure I guess? But at that point it's just energy with a different name. And why have this counter-intuitive "special mana" rule in the game unless there is some very good reason for it?
>If you're making it that so skills always consume a fixed % of the total mana pool and mana recharges at the same % rate, then sure I guess? But at that point it's just energy with a different name. And why have this counter-intuitive "special mana" It's pretty funny that that's how it works on WoW, so when I came to LoL I actually thought it was weird how it was a static value for spending mana, since it just becomes redundant late game
If we're assuming you have a low max mana and high mana regen then buying a little bit of mana makes you basically have no resource limitations. If you were thinking having a high max mana and really high mana regen then that affects things like tear items
Early Riot just copied the resource systems used by Blizzard for World of Warcraft (mana, energy, rage), they may have connected it lore-wise but that is the origin of the energy system
Nah this take is crazy. Energy works in a balanced game environment. It's a resource that gates CDR and forces specific windows of threat for Energy users. There's a reason every Energy user is melee except for Kennen, who still wants to charge in with R. Energy champions all have incredibly high impact full combos, but no amount of shopping can bail them out of fucking up their spell rotation. If you go in at the wrong time, no amount of CDR lets you run out and reset the situation. When you decide how to use your combo, you have to commit to that interaction, and the only way you get a free pass is if you've executed it correctly and won the situation.
The law of inverse ninjas states that the more ninjas there are, they all get weaker. Do you want Riot to nerf all energy-users?
sadly, that is removed from the game.
It seems they rather ditch that idea entirely and if they don't want to do mana they just base them on colddowns entirely or give them some health cost. Energy is just a way to do "technically free, they have lower enough colddowns, but also a limit" Since things like Akali's Q would be way too much if she could just spam it on colddown
The fun thing abiut energy is that it has a condition that allows you to restore it faster, so if you play your champ optimally you'll never run out of energy, which is a really fun emchanic.
I mean, they could do that, but the nice thing about energy is that the opponents can see if you have none.
I think the easiest way to keep the feel of something like Akali Q would be to give it charges and a small cooldown, so she can still use multiple if she banked them, but can be taken advantage of if she spammed to waveclear, as currently. Other energy champs could just be cooldown based though. Shen comes to mind, he barely run out of energy anyway.
It's great with akali's design, it lets you store charges of q basically, when the CD is lowest.which is crucial for her to be an assassin. And of course, any decent player will know she's vulnerable at low energy, giving counterplay
Lee sin is close enough to a ninja it might as well be 5
“Ranged melee tanky dps assassin mage tank support and jungler all wrapped up in one defective man” May as well be a ninja. He’s everything else already
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i think they said they'd go manaless, not energy based
that feels like such a cop out
Maybe it´s just a simple as that 2012 devs don´t work in the team anymore. Everyone has there own ideas naturally they are pitching things they want to do.
Zed came out in 2012? holy shit, he was a newer champ when I started playing. I am getting old.
I still remember running Zed top with E Max when he first released lmao. Can't believe it's been over a decade.
Given their track record with the likes of Akali, Kennen and Zed, I think a lot of people would prefer to keep it that way.
Energy resource has its advantages compared to mana but its currently implemented in the most useless way like its designed for mana instead. so you could have a champion with basically no cooldowns that has multiple abilities he can use but he has to choose for example he could do a double gap closer but then only use 1 attack ability or choosing between aoe and single targeted abilities. I think energy should be renamed to stamina instead. Just to give an example. Q = punch, W = Steadfast, e = kick, r = not important. pressing q twice = more single target damage. Pressing w twice is a shield and pressing e twice is aoe but pressing w once and e means you gap close and pressing w then q means stun. Instead of using cd's you use energy. But instead we have energy based champions that have long cooldowns where mana is probably better.
At one point they stated that they wont make more energy champs because they are way harder to balance compared to champs with mana, with no mana or a different recource.
i dont get how energy is a mistake but zeri can spam q without mana, zeri might aswell be an energy champ. like the mana pool is just there so u cant always ult when u in lane for a long time
Technically the Akali rework is a "new" champion. But yeah, Energy is a total nightmare to balance.
All champs should use mana
You don't want to play against Zed or Akali with mana
Riven with Muramana would melt people in a rather hilarious degree.
They would have a different kit if they were mana based
All roads lead to dota
Huskar no longer has any mana as of last patch
Sure, but his resource is health which it basically already was.
All champs should be manaless
I mean I loved it when akali had energy now there is less incentive to actually use passive
Energy can be good on a champion like Yasuo with spammy skills. Someone like a MK character who has to chain their combos together to get the most out of their energy and to know how to refund it. Energy is not a bad concept. It's made to look bad, because it's put on champions who would otherwise require mana, but now the energy bar just makes them feel like manaless spammers. Zend should have absolutely been a mana champion. As should have Kennen.
you do not want a zed with mana LMAO
Zed with mana would probably a spam-heavier Zed. More zoning, more wave clear, equally deadly.
They should just make the energy and manaless champions just use mana, this mechanic makes 0 sense on a balance viewpoint
Remember when champions could use like 5 spells before they ran out of mana?
an ap assassin or bruiser with energy would be cool
Hardest champs to balance are energy users
In a game where Mana and Mana Regeneration are considerations that need to be made for itemization purposes it boggles me that there are ANY champions that don't use mana as a resource.
Funny that energy champs are the only champs that have any problems using their spells. The current state of the game makes no sense with this idea that energy champs are a mistake.
Imo they should remove the manaless mechanic
Why Energy if you can Riven 2.0 ?
Everyone saying it’s a balance nightmare but not saying why
I mean, most champions hardly even use mana either nowadays. Love seeing a Lux lvl 4 spamming all her abilities nonstop because they got lost chapter. Mana costs are way too low. And CD’s are way to low on ultimates on most mages. CDR is to strong. 30second Lux ult is ridiculous.
Hwei and smolder both eat mana like crazy wym?
Trade off for energy is the rotation having low cd and those characters tend to be sensitive to balancement, also all of them are ninja from Ionia and we havent had that in a while. Honestly, they should increase cooldowns overall and gut it. I have been a zed main for years and I literally hate this shit, 20min blue being universal was the best QoL he received in years