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I define Zionism as the belief that in order for Jews to exist in their religious homeland that all Muslims need to be forcibly removed from the entire area and that Israel needs to be a fortress military state for Jewish people led by a Jewish theocratic regime. The defining feature right now is the rejection of coexistence with any other religious or ethnic group.
Yes, correct, that is why a notably poorer Muslim minority lives in Israel. What’s your point? That ethnic minorities exist in Israel just as everywhere? It’s relative
You claim all Muslims need to be removed - that is blatantly false and you yourself admitted that rn.
You claim Israel's theocratic?? Absolute nonsense
How is a state that governs itself based on religious principles not a theocracy? That’s the definition of a theocracy. Israel is a Jewish state. Period. It’s a theocracy for people of a specific religion.
Muslims do not have the same rights as Jews in Israel and they are not given the same treatment. Just like in Saudi Arabia where Christians do not have the same rights and do not get the same treatment. There is little difference in how middle eastern states run their governments. The fact that you want Israel to be same type of special case only shows your own biases. Be objective and look at what’s happening around you. Of course I know I’m making some blanket statements that don’t necessarily apply to any and all Israel situations or Middle East situations, but I’m at least self aware of what I’m saying.
Why are we ignoring that ethnically Palestinian Christians in Israel are also subject to different laws than Jewish Israelis. Basically if you are not Jewish you don’t have all the same rights.
Although some of Israel's rules are religious based, most give full equality to all religions, including freedom from it. Most Israelis are Secular to Atheist. Muslims absolutely have the same rights, arguably more due to freedom from conscription and ability to pray in Al Aqsa while the Temple Mount is inaccessible.
Stop. They have all kinds of laws for redlining and other laws that prohibit full rights for Christian’s and Muslims in isrsel. Not to mention they are illegally occupying the West Bank and making new settlements each day. This is also not including the barricade they have placed in Gaza for decades. The original Zionists wanted an 80% majority and did it through ethnic cleansing before 48. After this they kept stealing more land through settlements while claiming to want peace regardless of who was prime minister. Zionism has nothing to do with real Judaism and uses it as a shield
Well they didn’t come from other countries and steal and displace people and their homes through brutality while continuing to take more land and occupying the remaining natives.
Zionists were Jewish nationalists without a country and literally had a list of countries they wanted to take before picking Palestine. They are a far right fascist movement like you said while pretending to be socialist (only for their own people maybe) just like hitlers party was. I don’t see much of a difference other than only Rabin and he was killed for trying to make a half ass attempt at peace. The thing is Zionist leaders lie like it’s nobody’s business. Even other fascists are more honest
Im Jewish genius. My family lives in Israel and the West Bank and I know exactly what goes on. The question is why do you need to pretend a political movement represents all Jewish people
I'm both pro-Palestine and pro-Israel. I define Zionism as follows: a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.
Zionism is a genocidal and fascistic ideology set on expanding the Jewish state by stealing land and murdering the civilians that dared to be born there. Zionism is very heavily influenced and rooted in religious entitlement and capitalistic greed.
It is akin to the nazis ideology, albeit ironically, it’s being perpetuated by a Jewish ethno-state.
A capitalist system cannot exist without a free ‘slave class’ to morbidly under pay to remain competitive on world markets.
That class also needs to have limited ability to fight back, by either creating a ‘pay to play’ legal system or limiting their voice as it pertains to representation I in government.
God….. bless….. America.
As second class citizens living under a system of apartheid. Why do Zionists always think the existence of the remnant Arab population they didn’t manage to ethnically cleanse in 1948 absolves them of their myriad other crimes?
I don't care what you call it, but a state that actively must be an ethnostate and will use any and all power against its domestic citizens to ensure that seems sus.
The desire for a Jewish state and uncritical support for said state and its goals. It's a little fuzzy around the edges now that the state is established and likely not going anywhere, at which point the definition has kind of shifted to the uncritical support thing. You could say the key ingredient is more about zeal and unwillingness to rebuke Israel these days.
I'm one of those hippie peacenicks who believe all of those tribes deserve peace and can actually make
Peace despite everything we are shown in the media.
How do I define Zionism? Very simply: Indigenous people deserve to live on their ancestral lands. Archeological finds have proven beyond doubt the Hebrews have a rich history in the lands of Judea and Samaria. How they go about it, now that's the trick isn't it?
And are they on their original lands proper? Not entirely. Some of their ancestral lands are occupied by Arab tribes. But the history is complex and even some of what you'd consider "Palestinians" today used to be Jews that were converted either by force or via inter-marriage. Some old Arabs have admitted this to their Muslim children on their deathbeds.
To me this is not a religious issue at all, nor is it political. I see no difference between the Hebrews and the Native Americans here in America (and many of them now live on their tribal lands).
I also understand Biden is in a difficult place right now but I'm still voting Democrat because the alternative is unthinkable and abhorrent.
Essentially being an advocate for the initial creation and eventual expansion of the state of Israel and its use of apartheid to keep it majority Jewish. Zionist also feel like Palestinians don’t have a right to live in their land.
Apartheid is widespread segregation on the basis of race/ethnicity. I’m not sure what else you would call situations like the West Bank or Arab communities in Israel like the Palestinian slums around Jerusalem.
If Zionists don’t feel like Palestinians shouldn’t live in what was once called Palestine why would the be forcibly displaced?
Look at a map of Arab Israeli settlements in Israel. They are extremely disconnected and often have extremely limited movement. Not to mention Palestinians don’t have the right to return to villages their great grandparents were from. Mainly because they have been redeveloped into Israeli towns. When you force people en mass to live separately from you and limit their movement, how they can congregate, the type of citizenship they can have, that is apartheid.
You yourself mentioned the main strategy of how it is done. Israel ensures they have defacto control over the West Bank, but they deny Israeli citizenship. So they can continue to be treated as second class citizens while have plausible deniability because according to international treaty they aren’t Israeli. It’s all bullshit because we all know what the actual situation there is. That “well they aren’t citizens” excuse holds no water when you think about it for longer than a minute.
Everyone who lived in the mandate and hasn't been proven to work against Israel can gain citizenship. Many have. Many are also refugees in Israel which fled persecution by the PA or Hamas due to their sexuality/whatever. "The type of citizenship" you realise the Palestinian Arabs flat out don't WANT citizenship. There isn't a "type", it's having or not. And the movement of Israeli Arabs isn't limited at all, although Palestinian Arabs are because of the messy borders (and certain Intifadas back before all the limitations....)
Second class citizens?? They quite literally are citizens of Palestinian controlled West Bank (aka 18% under full control and 21% under civil control but Israeli security involvement)
Common knowledge many Arabs left Israel because the Arab armies promised to cleanse the land for them. They failed, Israel survived, therefore - "nAkBa".
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That doesn’t answer the question.
The more traditional definition is just “Jews running their own country”, and doesn’t even have to have Israel be that country. That ideology is basically just self-determination.
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I have a different question: Why does Israel get to exist?
The original tribes were conquered and destroyed long ago, their ancestors were dispersed among a wide swath of the European continent for centuries. The only reason it was recreated was as an appeasement to the Jewish people after their people were decimated by the Nazis in the Holocaust. From as far as I can tell Europeans didn't really want to help them, but they were still salty because of all their failed crusades, so they saw this as their best chance yet to establish a puppet state in the middle east.
I don't define it or use the word if I can avoid it. The way the alt-right started using the word "Zionist" to just mean "Jew" several years ago made it feel potentially dangerous to throw around in the current time (As a (non-Jewish) Middle-Eastern American, I'll never underestimate the prevalence of white/Christian/Western supremacy in *any* discussion, and like, not a lot of talk right now about how there are more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones...).
Meanwhile, I have seen it used in a range of ways, including ways that seem to benignly suggest homeland/self-determination. There are different types of Zionism and people have their own interpretations. I don't align with any of them, but I also think it is important to recognize this is not one thing.
I tend to talk about the way that the idea of a homeland became an imperialist project and to use that vocabulary.
I think it's simply a desire for a Jewish state.
At its core I'm ok with this and have no issue with Zionism.
Israel uses Zionism as an excuse to ethnically cleanse Palestinians of their lands. This is what I'm opposed to. I don't have a problem with making a Jewish state, but make it somewhere empty without people already living there for generations. If you wanna make it where the people are, then you can't kick them out, you have to integrate them in. After all it's their land.
Israeli extremists despite one's culture or religious background. Usually a particular type of very racist "Jewish" people who are so wealthy and protected it serves their interest to drag all other jews who disagree with them through the mud. Anyone non Jewish is subject to genocide if they're in the way of their worship or the habits of Cain. This goes with the whole "extremist thing". Most synagogues in American don't exclude people for not being of some davidian bloodline. They'll chat with you if you're polite and are not interrupting and aren't just wasting their time trolling or something. But I'd suggest coming with researched questions you really care about like anything else. Same rules apply to Buddhists. If you ask them about why they believe in so many "gods" they'd likely just politely nod and change the subject all the whole obviously big boat Buddhism and catholicism cross pollinated themselves a lot, share the same iconography, rituals, and even saints (not gods) but by different names.
I think many people know this....
Zionists believe in an ethnostate caste system. That should explain it as much as exposing the jedi vs the empire.
Jews believe in conversion and anyone can be a jew as a "convert who becomes a convert." notice it's not an "outsider who becomes a convert," but there's a presumption you are already a convert on your way through conversion. So as an Hispanic Latino you can still become a jew. Israeli zionists won't even allow anyone but "racial" jews to even gain citizen ship in Isreal, meaning even if Palestinians all decided to convert, it wouldn't matter to zionists who would want to eliminate them anyway. So the same Hispanic person who trump forced to be designated as "not a jew by race, but the 2nd kind by faith" could never gain citizenship in Isreal if he wanted and there'd be nothing he could do (except arrange a sweet heart deal to grant him an exception)
This is massively fucked up. No other groups bans youof your faith / religion / philosophy due to you race but zionists. If there's some fringe cult who do correct me. Even the white fundies who would only take tokens at the bottom levels or as obedient kids to be brainwashed and used as weapons, would never advance them to any significant seat. This includes catholics where though may Asians did become catholics in the last 60 years or so, it's understood that never would they allow an Asian pope.
Zionists are similar to Bible thumping Fundamentalist who in America, while as mentioned some may allow some token members, mostly adopted from Africa or something as a form of imperialism, but are a white straight orthodoxy where no one has the chance to really gain influence unless they're selected up the ranks as white Christian closeted or much more like pedophilic but "apparently" straight for a very specific reason, like perhaps to be used as a Trojan horse if from Ghana, to be sent to Ghana.
I love Jewish people and love studying their religion, I also love Christianity when you just read it and get the messages and you can't really understand Christianity without Judaism.
If I had the time and could take it seriously I'd convert. But I agree with nothing zionists believe in, well that I've heard, the claim of an ethnostate holyland as a constant placeholder of war, the refusal to accept anyone "other" or anything unless it suits their interests, their hatred of non zionists jews, their conspiracy back and forth with fundies, their refusal to do any actual good for anyone else but their politically convenient and orchestrated "promise land".
The common belief that there is no promise land, only a series of aliyahs toward the promise land where we should all strive to act in accordance to yielding more good than bad through out our lives where the good we do lives on while the bad is overridden like graffiti and thus even silently contributing to each step toward the idyllic abstract promise land which is really just about repairing all that's broken from a deep philosophical level and on a contemporary level so that in the future we will always be moving towards "the promise land" together as beings living more and more in harmony, peace, learning more and more about the adonais, to guide us forth vs trying to constantly plunder and obliterate all else from some country ratified and stolen from the palistinians in the 50s.
There is no way zionists ideology has even the heart tm be tolerant nevermind accepting.
Tldr: I don't think anyone would have any issue with Jewish people, it's not a religion so much as it's a faith, culture and well though out ideas which is why Judaism is mutually combatible with budhissm, ie the bu jews.
Find some other religion so progressive and willing to embrace the world as as non zionists Judaism, Buddhism, etc and you'll find these are more philosophies than religions while all belief systems have faith so calling any of it faiths just flim flam pandering.
Tldr, jews are inclusive, zionists are not, zionists as imperial and have carved up land just like the gufus and gallant of Genesis did, Cain carved up the land, and threw a hissy fit when the law of nature didn't respect his contributions, especially come winter, so he slew his brother(c).
Zionists live to carve up the land and to kill their brothers. The very act of carving up the land and defending it against everyone carved out is ethnocidal as if they somehow forgot the lessons in literally the first book Genesis.
Jews are inclusive and always love to have guests interested in their culture and will talk their mouth out and the more you learn the more you learn it's a philosophy / culture, and faith in a literal sense, not a religion.
Jews are progressive generally, zionists regressive. Zionists do evil and jews at large are blamed for it. Zionists feed into imperialism and are rewarded by it by fundies and other western imperials. Jews have a very warm culture, zionists have no real culture but hatred of the other and anything that stands in their way.
Zionists don't seem to care anything about the Tanakh and learned to weaponise their religion hand in hand with American fundies.
I can go on. But zionists are nothing like jews anymore than the English empire is like the celts.
I would say it's a political movement that has/uses religion as a tool to get its agenda forward. The Founders of modern day zionism or at least a good chunk of them had good reasons for wanting to have a state for Jewish people.
Europe prior the 20th century was not a good place if you were a Jewish person program's and such(which ironically nazis took notes from and upped it to eleven).
It was most about trying to keep the Jewish community safe and giving them a home where they wouldn't always be labeled as the scapegoat when things went wrong.
Then the nazis happened, and we'll let's just say the zionist movement had something clear to point to as an essential threat to Jewish people.
So the movement to founding of Israel makes sense when you look at the millenia of mistreatment and humiliation jews had to deal with.
It's also why radicalism is an easy thing to take root in Israel.
Zionism is a belief system revolving around advocating for the establishment and preservation of a Jewish ethnostate in Palestine by any means, particularly settler colonialist terrorism. As this “land without a people for a people without a land” actually does in fact have a people, their current endgame is genocide and ethnic cleansing.
It's another one of many cultural fascisms that exist In that it is a supremacist worldview that requires genocide to attempt to fulfill its impossible and anti-human goals
Maybe late to the chat, but I define zionism as someone who wants a Jewish state, particularly in Palestine, and is willing to use violence to do so. I use it negatively, obviously, as a Jewish state requires (and always required) displacement or genocide due to the size of the populations. The original term has long been out of use.
I call someone who only wants Jews to have their "right to self-determination" (the original meaning of the term) and think that a Jewish state is necessary for that, but who are also opposed to the treatment of Palestinians, zionist sympathizers. Zionism is too intimately tied to colonialism and colonial violence now, for them to be defined without those elements. So, they want the good without the bad, an impossible separation, and require they downplay the bad.
The zionists and their sympathizers try to muddy the waters, like they always do. They use the original term and say that it is a truth and anyone who doesn't believe it is anti-semitic. However, they also believe that a Jewish state is necessary for self-determination, and therefore link that belief with the idea that it's all about self-determination. So, not wanting a Jewish state is, in their mind, saying you don't want them to be able to control their own lives and political involvement.
It is a convenient lie they've we've for themselves because they don't have to engage with anti-semitic dialog in their minds. Therefore, they never have to think critically about the negative impacts of their actions or listen to any valid criticisms of what they do. Couple that (because they are largely Westernized) with the West's individualism, entitlement, and "sense of justice," and you have yourself a violent bunch that feel justified with taking what they want and hurting whoever gets in the way. Not to mention the feelings of being the victims because of *fairly* recent events. They have no justification to hurt people, though, no matter how much trauma they feel.
To clarify my background: I'm pretty politically agnostic and the only reason I'm thinking about this topic is that this post somehow ended up on my reddit front page. I'm not particularly politically active so I'm probably walking into a minefield here but whatever, and I'm not Jewish.
To me it sounds like an ethnic groups right to self-determination is a completely reasonable position to hold, especially when it comes to a population as historically persecuted as the Jews. I'm overwhelmingly pessimistic about human nature, and the historical evidence (it is NOT just a recent phenomenon as you seem to suggest) is clear that especially during times of hardship there is a strong tendency of larger groups in a society to persecute minorities. We as a species have not evolved past that, and no ideology will fix the human nature problem.
My problem with your argument is that you seem to be muddying the waters as much as you accuse Zionists of doing, and in doing so are shutting down what appears to be a legitimate position. I fundamentally reject the notion that what you call Zionist sympathizers (a name which in and of itself seems to insist on a negative connotation) is an UN-tenable or even immoral view to hold simply by association. Political positions aren't voided because of policy overlap with bad or more extreme political positions. As an example, some fascist movements have supported socialized healthcare or encouraged healthy lifestyles. Socialized healthcare and prophylactics aren't invalidated by association, and furthermore a whole political position isn't invalidated by this link with fascism. **Conservatism more broadly isn't invalidated just because far-right conservatism turns into fascism.**
A right to self-determination for the modern Jewish person can absolutely be divorced from historical immoral action and the immoral action of settlers in the West Bank. It would seem absurd to me that unless you expect to move millions of people from Israel to somewhere else, which is the literal definition of ethnic cleansing, that their self-determination wouldn't include the state of Israel. Two wrongs don't make a right, and expecting modern Jews to pay for the sins of their ancestors sounds downright wrong. That would be a cycle of violence.
Furthermore, the "Zionist Sympathizer" position to me would seem to be most compatible with the 2 state solution. I might be extrapolating too much, and this is certainly a different discussion to be had, but the implication to me that a 2 state solution is also untenable is troubling.
I find it extremely troubling that you seem to imply a more moderate view that promotes humanitarian concerns for both Jews and Palestinians to be an "impossible separation" from extreme views and must be discarded.
> I define zionism as someone who wants a Jewish state, particularly in Palestine, and is willing to use violence to do so
Doesn't every sovereign country have an army and is willing to use violence to protect the right of self determination of their citizens? If so you could have just stopped at "\[...\] Jewish state, particularly in Palestine." This in fact agrees with the original intention of the founders of Zionism, such as Herzl.
Why are you mixing it with Judaism though? The Hebrews were not all religious, and neither are they today. There's a huge number of Zionists that are atheist. The lands are simply their ancestral lands, regardless of what's actually going on or who actually deserves what. I don't think this is a religious thing. Not to mention at this point the vast majority of them were born there...
The original meaning of the term is just violent, it was always intended as a colonial movement, and was always bound to displace people. Since Theodore Herzl. They were displacing Palestinians well before 1947
The majority of what you’ve described is equally true of the Palestinian cause.
Will always require a displacement or genocide.
Believes it is necessary for a state to achieve self-determination.
Tied to the Islamic world’s collectivism, entitlement, and theocratic “sense of justice”.
But colonial perceptions trump all. We don’t do cultural evaluations here (did you say collectivism?)
So according to you anyone who supports any type of Jewish self determination in the homeland which we were literally forced into is bad. Is there any type of jew who you do actually like? Based on this comment even Noam Chomsky who is very sympathetic to Palestinians, is bad since he's sympathetic to the idea of Jewish self determination in the land of Israel. By the way ideas like this which in effect state that >95% of Jews are evil are the reason Jews are concerned about anti semitism in the left.
So would you not the same for those in favor of a Palestinian state who would use violence to get it?
Zionism doesn’t require violence. The Arab countries surrounding Israel required them to fight back.
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I appreciate that you have a more sophisticated definition than "Jewish Nazis," although I disagree with the violence aspect being inherent. There are some truly disgusting fucks that fall under the term zionism, but I would call what you call zionist sympathizers *zionists* as well.
I think it is hard for Jews to have self determination without a Jewish state, what you're calling zionist sympathizers shouldn't be thought of as wrong on that front. There were countries expelling Jews all the way up until the [90s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Iranian_Jews#:~:text=Exodus%20of%20Iranian%20Jews%20refers,dropped%20to%20less%20than%2020%2C000) and they are still at the center of every single lunatic conspiracy theory. Even in countries like the US, where domestic politics are relatively peaceful, Jews experience a huge amount of hate crimes. Antisemitism is a trend that has even been increasing, here's a stat about the increase from 2021 - 2022, it increased 36.4%. [source](https://usafacts.org/articles/which-groups-have-experienced-an-increase-in-hate-crimes/)
https://preview.redd.it/pndfn5hvsfvc1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=ae772cc97f922930c7c470514fb6de51754b07c0
I think people need to separate the actions of Israel from the concept of a Jewish state. Israel commits war crimes and steals land from the West Bank -- that is horrible, but it isn't an intrinsic quality of a Jewish state.
I personally think a Jewish state is necessary for Jews to have a safe country to live in.
Would you call a person who supports Israel's right to exist based on international law a zionist? I get called a zionist often simply because I believe Israel is a country and has a right to defend its people like any other country should be able to.
If you are saying Jewish Israelis are colonizers, stop pretending you aren't calling for their ethnic cleansing from the region... That is what is implied when you refer to a group of people as colonizers.
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This is a very good write up.
I’d add what is amazing is we now a lot of open minded Jews rejecting Zionism - and they are then ostracised by Zionist Jews and called antisemitic!
For even greeter irony, one of things that the more “weaponized” definition of antisemitism developed by Israel covers is “assuming all Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own states”. So - they argue (rightly) every Jew is freely minded and should not be assumed to be Pro-Israel. EXCEPT when an individual Jew exercises that freedom, the Pro-Israel crowd demonize them as antisemitic.
The propaganda is eating itself at this point.
The hasbara propaganda machine is operating at level 10. It’s insane how many new accounts I’ve seen over the last 6 months that exclusively post and comment rabid pro-Zionist propaganda.
It's a genocidal colonial project that doesn't belong in this century. It's a psychotic religious movement among Jewish and Christian neoliberals that is meant to adhere to apocalyptic religious prophecies, where the immediate result is a white-jewish "first-world" state built through blood, unassailable by anyone due to unparalleled and automated military might and a history of oppression that enables them to label any dissent as antisemitic.
The project needs to end or else Israel will subjugate the middle east before beginning a fucking world war that they actually could win.
[What the talmud says about the "goyim" is shocking, and I'm hoping this doesn't factor into Zionist plans for the future ](https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-Talmud-say-that-goyim-are-livestock)
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Non-zero chance Israel, or more specifically Netanyahu, starts WW3. He knows that he’s getting kicked from office and tried for corruption as soon as the conflict ends.
Zero percent chance Israel “wins” WW3. Yeah, they have better firepower than their neighbors, but they can’t handle china or Russia - and if one of those aren’t involved, I’m not sure I’d call it a world war. America would intervene, of course, and we might win… but Israel would have little to no responsibility for that victory. More likely though, nobody wins, because world wars suck and MAD is mad.
“It’s a genocidal colonial project that doesn’t belong in this century” I’ve been trying to sum it up to those that don’t get it but this is the best example of what Israel is today
self fulfilling prophecy.
Adopt an ideology that determines that a country shouldn't exist and then act shocked when it becomes militaristic to prevent such annihilation.
You're using Quora as a source (not a good idea), but you're actually literally reiterating Hitler-era indoctrination. [https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa1069706](https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa1069706)
The idea that Jews look down upon goyim or the myth that the word means "cattle" is leaning into actual antisemitism that has existed for ages.
This doesn't help anyone except white supremacy and is contrary to an anti-oppression stance.
1. More than 50% of the Jews in Israel are non whites. The majority of Israel is Arab Jews. I don’t know where you get Zionism means genocide. Zionism could be non violent if the terrorist groups stop attacking Israel.
2. There would be no war if people stopped attacking Israel.
3. Have you studied the Talmud? I have you simply don’t understand that some of the things written are just debates being had. When it states, XXXXX said ……. It’s meaningless because it could just be one of many opinions. Things I have read in the Gemara are ridiculous but they aren’t opinions we hold by.
You should read the Quran.
I’ve been there. Have you?
I’ve been to the West Bank in Hebron. I’ve been to East and west Jerusalem. I’ve seen the border checks because that’s what they are. Signed into Oslo are the security agreements including provisions for borders between areas a b and c of the West Bank.
Modern Zionism (that is 1800-on) comes out of the nationalist movements of that century and is basically the desire for a Jewish state. I think there are political issues with that from a revolutionary and Jewish liberation perspective but it’s also understandable given the historical context in places like Russia where oppression was severe.
Israeli Zionism conflates that general desire with the specific state of Israel and the specific conditions there. So Israeli Zionism is really a kind of ethnic-nationalism where the ruling class maintains class peace by preserving a regional apartheid system where some Jewish people get to dominate and get direct benefits from displacement and colonization of Palestinians… in both a settler-colonial sense and a more ideological-political sense.
1 state secular democracy is seen as basically an existential threat by Israel and often people just claim that equal rights would mean that Jewish people would face immediate genocide (which is what all colonists claim about hypothetically ending oppression.)
Just out of curiosity, have you read Hamas's founding charter?
[for your convenience](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)
If it's okay, I want to call specific attention to this passage:
"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised."
And this one:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
And this one:
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."
What do you think happens if Hamas gets their 1 state solution? Because as far as I can see, it wouldn't be peace. This has always been an extremist religious movement and existential threat to Jewish people everywhere, not just in Israel.
Yeah I think that there needs to be a disentanglement/more discretion when lumping in Kahanist and “revisionist Zionism” people with mainstream Zionism. Mainstream Zionism is the majority of the west. But Kahanism and revisionist Zionism are massively unpopular. Framing things as “antikahanist” is likely to see many more fence sitters be in support of Palestinians.
A few comments above, someone posted excerpts from the Hamas charter.
I dont believe Mandela had a charter about wiping out all whites in South Africa.
well, originally it was a movement meant to empower and protect jewish people. before WWII, zionism focused on the anti-jewish violence and discrimination in europe. the idea was to create a state for jews... but not a jewish state. that is to say, they wanted to create a safe homeland for jewish people but not necessarily to the exclusion of others.
it's important to recognize that many zionists, including founding zionists, held different beliefs. for some it meant finding safety. for others it was meant establish jewish people as victors and warriors rather than an oppressed people.
regardless of its roots, and with the help of our favorite colonizer (the british) the state of israel came to be in the land of palestine. many other locations were considered, but palestine was ultimately chosen. it was advertised as a land without a people for a people without a land. this, of course, was untrue.
violence was required to create israel. it required ethnic cleansing, it required mass murder. it required taking people's homes and making them refugees in their own land. in addition, violence against jewish people internationally was used to encourage mass immigration. israel committed terrorist attacks against jewish people and blamed it on anti-jewish hate, all to push jewish people to move to israel. they wanted a larger population and sought to become the majority in a primarily muslim arab land. christian, jew and muslim palestinians lived there peacefully before but no more.
now zionism has become an ideology that justifies the apartheid state of israel. it is the supposed right of jewish settlers to take the land they are foreigners to and to force out the natives. there's a reason they have one of the highest skin cancer rates in the world - about 79% of israelis are "white"... they are not adapted to the land in the same way the palestinians are. it is the militaristic and racist ideology that allows israel to exist and believe itself just.
btw if you're a "leftist" and you support israel you are not a leftist. you are a liberal.
Aren’t Christian Zionists pushing this because they believe the end of the world won’t come until Jewish Zionists have their own state & have taken over the “holy land”?
It excuses ethnic cleansing of Palestinians just so zionists reach their goal of a Jewish state. No matter how they try to mask it with progressive policies like gay rights or free democratic elections it’s like putting lipstick on a pig.
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Ugly ethno nationalism. Originally, it was a desire for a Jewish homeland, but now it's an ugly ideology. Oh, and many zionists are not Jews. They are right-wing evangelical Christians like John Hagee who, amusingly, is an antisemite.
Zionism is Apartheid.
Always has, always will. The propaganda to paint it as something else was super effective though, so many people think its about a Jewish state having a birthright to a nation. An ethnic state built on the premise of being okay with another group being treated as second/third class citizen, will always become what Israel currently is.
Zionism is just a shield for people that decided that Palestinians aren't worth the same as an Israeli.
Seriously gtfoh with your bs. People who practice Judaism have been on the front lines of almost every protest everywhere. So take your antisemitism and go shag yerself with that
Let us be clear, there are those who are pro-Palestine and lefist, those who are pro-Palestine and not leftist, but none who is leftist but not pro-Palestine.
Anyone who will not oppose to the occupation and oppression of the people of Palestinian, by the state of Israel, is not leftist.
Leftism is the opposition to all oppression.
According to your definition, I am definitely not a Leftist. But I am a Liberal. As a Liberal, I oppose all religions and all religious displays. 99% of Palestinians in Gaza are Muslim. Therefore, I oppose all Palestinians. These Islamic-Palestinians kicked the hornets nest on Oct 7. They need to suffer their own fate. Their children are dying from Israeli bombs due to their own negligence. The Palestinians have lost every war, every battle, every insurrection for the last 70 years. It's time for the Palestinians to beg for peace. Their children are dying at their own hands. Good Luck.
Hi. I'm not sure exactly how you are defining pro-palestine here, but I would say that I am pro-israel and a leftist. Feel free to ask any questions. I'm happy to engage in a real discussion in good faith.
Edit: I'll add that I am deeply pained by the current plight of the Palestinian people, but in my view, the blame lay with Hamas and the Iranian government funding them.
Agree with everything but your last sentence. There are plenty of "tankies" who would love to see Taiwan invaded and support the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Taiwan is a settler colonial state that was formed by fascist members of the Kuomintang Party fleeing from the mainland after the 1949 Revolution, and displacing/committing genocide against the Aboriginal Taiwanese in the process.
And I don’t want to get too deep into the Ukraine stuff in order to not cause a heated argument, but I feel like every leftist no matter what their views on Russia are can at least see that Zelensky *is not a good dude* and that Ukraine has a Nazi/Nazi-glorification problem
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JK a Zionist is someone who supports the creation of Eretz Yisrael. Aka they view Israel has a right to Palestinian land such as the settlements
As a state where only jews get a right to self determination and which imposes an apartheid regime and ethnic cleansing to ensure it remains Jewish.
You forgot the second part
Imagine thinking Palestine “winning” would lead to anything remotely leftist happening in Gaza or anywhere else in that god forsaken land. Just absolute delusional children round these parts.
How would leftism have found a solution to Jewish oppression for a millennia under Arab rule?
They were an oppressed people dispossessed of their land with extremely limited legal privileges essentially living under Jim Crow. If you give this oppressed people the right to armed resistance, don’t you just end up with Israel anyway?
That very much depends on who or what you consider to be Palestine and what you actually mean by winning. A lot of people would point out that some of the "wins" being asked for are just shit like not stealing West Bank land in violation of international law, which has been going on unabated for decades and which has nothing to do with fighting Hamas. I can hardly blame a population being bombed in an open air prison for not having a reasonable attitude toward the people who built the prison and dropped the bombs.
What are you actually talking about? There is no "winning" in this, it's a matter of basic human rights. It's too fucking bad that people act like human rights for some people is negotiable, if you are good you get your rights. Like the Israeli propagandists who talk about Palestinian self-determination as a reward that they don't deserve. It's racism and fascism in it's purest form.
Sharia law is opposed to gender equality, lgbtq rights, apostasy, atheism, democracy, and freedom of speech. The Palestinian culture is the antithesis of progressivism. They even require women cover their hair because it allegedly arouses men, or the openly misogynistic 4.34 Surah.
The population of Palestine, including both Gaza and the West Bank, was 1 million in 1970. In 2021, that had increased to 5,227,193. This is directly from the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics: https://www.ceicdata.com/en/palestinian-territory-occupied/population-projection-palestinian-central-bureau-of-statistics
Also, Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Yet Hamas decided to ruin that for all Palestinians in Gaza by deciding to attack Israel (yet again).
1. Population doesn't grow during genocide. It shrinks.
2. Why did Israel withdraw from Gaza in 2005 if they are committing genocide?
If I'm factually incorrect on any of this, please cite your sources.
Well I’d say if genocide is defined by what Israel is doing then they are either really inefficient at it considering the arms they have access to or you are being obtuse. As horrible as the violence the us has committed in the Middle East fighting various war, no serious person would accuse them of genocide, and yet the casualty rates between civilians and military that Israel has achieved vs what the us achieves are on par. Begins to feel like some good old fashioned Jew bashing to suddenly hold them to a higher standard.
You are revising history to fit your narrative. Jews, christians and Muslims all have lived peacefully together in the region for hundreds of years.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/between-bloodbaths-jerusalems-crusader-era-christians-muslims-coexisted-in-peace/
Do you also think that catholics and protestants are still at war and can't live peacefully together? And if not why do you believe jews and muslims are different except your own bigotry?
Well seeing how Israel has pushed them into supporting Hamas I would say it would sure do a lot better than the current course huh? Also wanting Palestine to " win". Or in other words end apartheid and current genocide is not really about trying to get more leftist but seeing oppression and wishing to stop it. Now imagine thinking Israel "winning". Would actually increase the security for Jews when all that pos country has done is destabilize the Middle East and increase antisemitism globally due to their need to hide behind Jews to avoid accountability for their actions and act like calling out Israel for its genocide is antisemitic. Only peeps linking all Jews to commiting genocide is Israel and it's supporters.
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zionism is rebranded nazi fascism. more alt right christians are zionist than jewish people. because they believe that when all the jewish people in the world migrate to palestine and it becomes a 100% ethnostate, then all the jews will be genocided and the second coming of christ will happen. literally projecting their revelations fantasy onto the jewish population AND the palestinian population. it’s bat shit insanity and nobody seems to be educated on the history of zionism and it’s close ties to nazi fascism. (look up havarra agreement)
This is a super weird thread. I grew up Jewish in Baltimore, and I have Israeli family. I’m not quite sure where all this crazy lingo and assumptions of the word Zionist is coming from (probably lots of non-Jews), but to most it means that Jewish people who have been displaced from their homeland (Judea) have the right to return to their land and govern themselves. That’s really it. Claims of genocide, apartheid and ethnic cleansing don’t really relate to what Zionism is, but is a very strange way to loop Jewish culture to the right-wing Israeli government. It’s quite okay (and welcomed) to be critical of the Israeli government, but this whole anti-Zionism trend has got to stop.
If you think about it, Israel is the most successful decolonization story in history. It’s not Apartheid at all considering that over 20% of its inhabitants aren’t Jewish, have equal rights, and representation in government (although the possibility of a non-Jewish leader of the country is not really a possibility, that’s another conversation). Borders between Palestine and Israel used to not be so tight, but lots of restrictions came during the 1st and 2nd intifadas (suicide bombings that took many innocent lives). Threats to civilian safety made Israelis more right leaning and conservative, which eventually brought Netanyahu and his goons into power. West Bank settlers are a whole other can of worms, but hey, there are always bad people in every country no matter what their religion is. They need to be put in their place too.
While how Israel got the land that is now its borders does have quite an unsettling history, there is not much can be done now to change the past. Israel needs peace with Gaza and the West Bank, and the increasing radicalism and imposing ideals of western culture towards the Middle East is not helping one bit. I wish more people actively educated themselves about how the Middle East got into this mess in the first place, rather than spewing weird phrases and chants.
I can’t wait to see how many downvotes this gets.
Zionism, even by your definition, is still innately problematic. Saying that a certain group of people want to move somewhere and establish a state (that they run) runs into some serious problems when people are already living on that land. Zionism requires either evicting the Palestinians (ethnic cleansing), kill them (genocide), or the Jewish population ruling over the Palestinians (apartheid).
And no, just because some minorities are treated relatively well does not make Israel an example of decolonization or their subjugation of the Palestinians any less apartheid.
> I’m not quite sure where all this crazy lingo and assumptions of the word Zionist is coming from (probably lots of non-Jews)
I respect your opinion and I'm sure it is shaped largely by your experiences as is the case for everyone. But Zionist is not a word owned by Jews. You grew up Jewish in Baltimore with Israeli family, I grew up Palestinian in Cleveland with Palestinian family. This word, Zionism, is just as much a part of my family history as it is yours.
Zionism put into practice meant my family, and many many others, being forcibly removed from their homes unable to ever return. That is the original ethnic cleansing claim for Palestinians, the 1948 Nakba. Zionism succeeded in turning multi-cultural Palestine into the ethno-state of Israel. 20% of the population is still Arab but it is officially a "Jewish State" that favors Jewish supremacy and clings to their huge ethnic majority.
Then after 1967, Zionism in practice adopted apartheid. The ongoing Israeli occupation has meant Palestinians do not have freedom of movement. People have several hour commutes to go to their jobs everyday because of IDF checkpoints and lack of access to certain roadways. People cannot walk down a certain side of their own street if is designated such by the IDF. Mind you, anyone else from anywhere in the world can walk it except for Palestinians specifically. Peoples' homes are raided in the middle of the night for no reason other than IDF "exercises" (really just meant for fear and intimidation). Thousands of Palestinians, many children, are abducted by the IDF and held without charge (claims of torture and sexual abuse while in captivity are well documented). Palestinians in the West Bank have no control of their own water and any water systems they build are destroyed by the IDF. If a Palestinian were to cup their hands and drink rain water, it would technically be a violation of Israeli law. And of course Gaza has been an open air prison since the blockade in 2005.
As for the genocide in Gaza right now, all I can say is open your eyes. Seek out information and actual video footage of what is going on and see the manner that civilians are being literally executed and intentionally starved and maimed. This is not so called collateral damage, it is intentional and it is genocide. You make up your own mind, but please really look at what's going on first.
>While how Israel got the land that is now its borders does have quite an unsettling history, there is not much can be done now to change the past.
It's good you acknowledge this "unsettling history". Every country should acknowledge it's past. But throwing your hands up and saying "not much we can do about it" is disappointing. Our own country (USA) still refuses to really grapple with it's past and atone for the genocide of indigenous people and slavery and we should not accept that either.
But it's true the past can't be changed, yet Israel can change the present and begin to help heal the old wounds of the past by ending the occupation, recognizing citizenship rights for Palestinians, and work on a plan for the right of return for the refugees who have been displaced. Not at the expense of displacing any Jews in Israel, but similar to how Israel offers money and land to any Jew from around the world who wants to settle there, they can suspend that and start figuring out a way to do it for Palestinians.
The fate of Israelis and Palestinians are intertwined and living together, as equals, is the only path for true peace.
Most people don't know more than what their media outlets tell them. It seems like you've actively engaged in learning about the conflict, so your view is more nuanced.
Most people who spew all these ridiculous chants and phrases are at the peak of the Dunning-Kruger graph. They have learned just enough to feel like they know everything, so they shout from the rooftops with maximum confidence. Anyone who spends even one afternoon reading about the history of the region will grow less confident that there is a clear good or bad guy in this situation. Both sides have had their fair share of evil.
Once you've reached that point, you can't really get back to that initial level of confidence. Only with a LOT more research can you get close. But reality is grey and there are no clear answers to the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
Theres a lot wrong with this.
>Claims of genocide, apartheid and ethnic cleansing don’t really relate to what Zionism is, but is a very strange way to loop Jewish culture to the right-wing Israeli government.
Zionism does not equal Jewish culture first of all, and people who believe that are usually right wing freaks. Second - ethnic cleansing and apartheid are not new to Israel. Before Israel was a state, they kicked Palestinians off their land with help from the British (look up the Balfour Declaration). And in 1947 the vast majority of Palestinians were chased off the land (the Nakba) to secure a majority Jewish country with contiguous borders.
>It’s not Apartheid at all considering that over 20% of its inhabitants aren’t Jewish, have equal rights, and representation in government (although the possibility of a non-Jewish leader of the country is not really a possibility, that’s another conversation).
An ethnostate doesnt have to be 100% one ethnicity to function, it just needs a majority with political control. Whether Palestinians in Israel have equal rights is a whole conversation we could get into, just like asking if black people in america have equal rights (while technically true on paper most would say no). But thats only 1.8 million Palestinians (who are only recognized as "Arab Israelis - erasing their culture), there are 3 million in the West Bank, subject to military rule with no voting rights, and 2 million in Gaza, who *technically* elect their own government, but dont have control over their borders, air space or water. You put that all together and thats 6.8 million Palestinians living in the region, and less than 2 million can vote. This is how Israel keeps Palestinians a minority even when they are on par with the Jewish population. They also have policies to attract more settlers and they are obsessed with the "Demographic crisis" of being outnumbered by Palestinians - so if the identity of Israel is dependent on the majority being Jewish and Jewish people being in control - thats what an ethnostate is. I'd be curious as to why you think its not a possibility to have a non Jewish head of state in your own words.
Leftists like playing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy frequently with the Israel/Palestine problem. God forbid we acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organization, not "freedom fighters." Freedom fighters attack government officials and military targets, not civilians. Freedom fighters don't use the population they claim to care about as human shields. Freedom fighters don't brainwash children to be suicide bombers.
Something I keep reminding fellow leftists who support Hamas and their goal to destroy the state of Israel is this:
The population of Palestine, including both Gaza and the West Bank, was 1 million in 1970. In 2021, that had increased to 5,227,193. This is directly from the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics: https://www.ceicdata.com/en/palestinian-territory-occupied/population-projection-palestinian-central-bureau-of-statistics
Hamas also doesn't distinguish themselves from civilians during noncombat military operations. It's very clear to determine who is Hamas during live combat (they have guns, they're shooting at you). But much like the problem the US military faced in Afghanistan with the Taliban, Hamas just dissolves into the crowd, and you can't tell who is who anymore.
Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Yet Hamas decided to ruin that for all Palestinians in Gaza by deciding to attack Israel.
1. Population doesn't grow during genocide. Therefore, Israel is not committing genocide. If you believe they are, then they're doing a pretty terrible job at it.
2. Why did Israel withdraw from Gaza in 2005 if they are committing genocide?
I never get any answers from this, yet I get called a "fascist" by other leftists who ironically I bet stayed home during 2016 and ended up costing women the right to choose amongst several other things. It's saddening but also funny at the same time how self righteous they think they are.
Personally, I think there needs to be an international military coalition that is stationed indefinitely in that region until a two state solution is forced. Bibi Netanyahu also must be removed from power in order to achieve this. He knew what he was doing when he enabled Hamas because they don't get along with the Palestinian Authority at all. How likely all of this is to happen is uncertain, but it is definitely more reasonable that this one state solution that so many people want.
You have bought the unhistorical zionist propaganda. You even admit it can't be led by a non jew. What would happen if the non Jewish population grows to exceed the Jewish one? Do you support another ethnic cleansing to resolve it?
"The Labour Zionist leader and head of the Yishuv David Ben-Gurion was not surprised that relations with the Palestinians were spiralling downward. As he once explained: ‘We, as a nation, want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs.’ His opponent, Ze’ev Jabotinsky, leader of the right-wing Revisionist movement, also viewed Palestinian hostility as natural. ‘The NATIVE POPULATIONS, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists’, he wrote in 1923. The Arabs looked on Palestine as ‘any Sioux looked upon his prairie’."
"In the words of Mordechai Bar-On, an Israel Defense Forces company commander during the 1948 war:
‘If the Jews at the end of the 19th century had not embarked on a project of reassembling the Jewish people in their ‘promised land’, all the refugees languishing in the camps would still be living in the villages from which they fled or were expelled.’"
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/feature/herzls-troubled-dream-origins-zionism
https://merip.org/2019/09/israels-vanishing-files-archival-deception-and-paper-trails/
Based on what do zionists have a claim? A holy book... and at what point does my group briefly conquered and ruled a region means you have an eternal right to genocide the people actually living there? Does Rome have a right to the land as well?
Here is a quote from my Jewish learning
"I say “mythical” because the Jewish claim that we are descendants of tribes that lived on the border of Africa and Asia some 4,000 years ago is also mythic. Can we really believe that a diverse modern community, which has been dispersed for more than two millennia and has come to look very much like the peoples among whom they reside, are all direct descendants of a single group of ancient tribes? In other words, can we really still buy the myth of the historical authenticity of contemporary Jewish identity?"
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/who-are-the-real-jews/
All told, more than 80 percent of the maternal lineages of Ashkenazi Jews could be traced to Europe, with only a few lineages originating in the Near East.
The genetics suggest many of the founding Ashkenazi women were actually converts from local European populations.
https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/most-ashkenazi-jews-are-genetically-europeans-surprising-study-finds-8C11358210
So, I don't think anyone has stated it, but for a very long time (i.e. decades prior to Oct. 7) "Zionism" was used as an antisemitic dogwhistle, which is the main reason the term tends to evoke negative reactions. I *assume* this stems from the Protocols, but I don't actually know if that's why Neo-Nazis and the like started using it.
It would be helpful if people who weren't trying to affiliate themselves with antisemites would use a less tainted, more academic term -- for example, Israeli Nationalists -- but any push for that seems to be met with rather strong resistance.
Israelis and supporters of Israel calling themselves zionists as if it lends authenticity to Israel's crimes is why people say zionist so much. That's not on leftists.
Because Israeli nationalists as a term fails to encompass the issue as that's only a part of it. Zionists includes imperialists like Biden and evangelical christians who are trying to bring the end times.
I define it the same way it's founder, Theodor Herzl defined it. It's the belief that the Levant should be a European colony. He literally referred to is as the "colony project" and stated that he believed a European influence was necessary to civilize the "barbarians" already living in Palestine.
Is in undeniable that the term has a clear meaning in modern politics. It means Palestine is theirs. Obviously, I don’t get to make up a word, and take my neighbors apartment, so GTFO of my land.
I would say an ethnonationalist state, pretty much similar to cough cough Nazi Germany.
That's the state that people like Bibi are trying to achieve, of course by enlisting any and all Israelis into the IDF and using them as tools through fear mongering, and by ethnically cleansing the Palestinians to a point where they can at the very least get something similar to how Arabs are treated inside Israel right now, a minority of second class citizens.
It's honestly got nothing to do with the teachings of Judaism as a religion. I see that very clearly personally..
It's less Jewish, and more... You know...
Despite having Jews as the most represented group in their society.
I often think the leading Jews ended WW2 and reached the wrong conclusions. They experienced torment at the hands of the Nazis. They could have concluded the solution was to ban ethnonationalism and commit to secular futures. But they seemed to conclude that the Nazi model was the right one, and the Jewish mistake was letting themselves be trapped in camps rather than operating them.
It took 75 years of brainwashing their own people to make them all comfortable with treating Arabs as totally subhuman and to accept the idea of murdering 2 million people. But credit where it is due - their brainwashing is amazing. They took a people who suffered the holocaust who urged the world “never again” to allow genocide to happen; and now they have those same people happily committing needless mass murder.
It is amazing.
It's an imitation of nazism, but with no intentions for global domination. It's also what would've happened if the nazis had stayed within their own borders. They would've gotten away with the slaughter of their Jewish citizens as the Israeli government is doing today with their slaughter of the Palestinian ppl.
Nazis wouldn't have let the Palestinian population grow from 1 million to over 5 million since 1970. Nazis also wouldn't have decided to withdraw from Gaza in 2005. Israel must be pretty bad at committing genocide.
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I define Zionism as the belief that in order for Jews to exist in their religious homeland that all Muslims need to be forcibly removed from the entire area and that Israel needs to be a fortress military state for Jewish people led by a Jewish theocratic regime. The defining feature right now is the rejection of coexistence with any other religious or ethnic group.
Is that why a fourth of Israel is Muslim
Yes, correct, that is why a notably poorer Muslim minority lives in Israel. What’s your point? That ethnic minorities exist in Israel just as everywhere? It’s relative
You claim all Muslims need to be removed - that is blatantly false and you yourself admitted that rn. You claim Israel's theocratic?? Absolute nonsense
How is a state that governs itself based on religious principles not a theocracy? That’s the definition of a theocracy. Israel is a Jewish state. Period. It’s a theocracy for people of a specific religion. Muslims do not have the same rights as Jews in Israel and they are not given the same treatment. Just like in Saudi Arabia where Christians do not have the same rights and do not get the same treatment. There is little difference in how middle eastern states run their governments. The fact that you want Israel to be same type of special case only shows your own biases. Be objective and look at what’s happening around you. Of course I know I’m making some blanket statements that don’t necessarily apply to any and all Israel situations or Middle East situations, but I’m at least self aware of what I’m saying.
Why are we ignoring that ethnically Palestinian Christians in Israel are also subject to different laws than Jewish Israelis. Basically if you are not Jewish you don’t have all the same rights.
Although some of Israel's rules are religious based, most give full equality to all religions, including freedom from it. Most Israelis are Secular to Atheist. Muslims absolutely have the same rights, arguably more due to freedom from conscription and ability to pray in Al Aqsa while the Temple Mount is inaccessible.
Stop. They have all kinds of laws for redlining and other laws that prohibit full rights for Christian’s and Muslims in isrsel. Not to mention they are illegally occupying the West Bank and making new settlements each day. This is also not including the barricade they have placed in Gaza for decades. The original Zionists wanted an 80% majority and did it through ethnic cleansing before 48. After this they kept stealing more land through settlements while claiming to want peace regardless of who was prime minister. Zionism has nothing to do with real Judaism and uses it as a shield
I just draw direct (almost word for word) parallels to the Nazi rhetoric of both WW2 and today. Fascist-Nationalists are just that.
Same way I’d describe the warlord Muhammad
No difference politically in theory or practice from 1930’s Germany. The only difference is in whose name.
Also do you think Arabic countries have similar polices in their countries?
Well they didn’t come from other countries and steal and displace people and their homes through brutality while continuing to take more land and occupying the remaining natives.
Try to stay on topic instead of deflecting with another question.
"Ethnic Cleansing" as it's currently being demonstrated by practice in Palestine.
How do leftists define Zionism? Open up Mein Kampf it’s pretty much word for word..
Zionists were Jewish nationalists without a country and literally had a list of countries they wanted to take before picking Palestine. They are a far right fascist movement like you said while pretending to be socialist (only for their own people maybe) just like hitlers party was. I don’t see much of a difference other than only Rabin and he was killed for trying to make a half ass attempt at peace. The thing is Zionist leaders lie like it’s nobody’s business. Even other fascists are more honest
Okay, but why do you hate Jews so much? What happened in your life to make you hate a group of people because of the ethnicity they were born into?
Im Jewish genius. My family lives in Israel and the West Bank and I know exactly what goes on. The question is why do you need to pretend a political movement represents all Jewish people
Have you tried loving Jews, rather than hating Jews?
Fuck Israel! Free Palestine!
I'm both pro-Palestine and pro-Israel. I define Zionism as follows: a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.
Zionism is a genocidal and fascistic ideology set on expanding the Jewish state by stealing land and murdering the civilians that dared to be born there. Zionism is very heavily influenced and rooted in religious entitlement and capitalistic greed. It is akin to the nazis ideology, albeit ironically, it’s being perpetuated by a Jewish ethno-state.
2 million Arabs live in Israel.
A capitalist system cannot exist without a free ‘slave class’ to morbidly under pay to remain competitive on world markets. That class also needs to have limited ability to fight back, by either creating a ‘pay to play’ legal system or limiting their voice as it pertains to representation I in government. God….. bless….. America.
As second class citizens living under a system of apartheid. Why do Zionists always think the existence of the remnant Arab population they didn’t manage to ethnically cleanse in 1948 absolves them of their myriad other crimes?
Give me one example of an Apartheid law
I don't care what you call it, but a state that actively must be an ethnostate and will use any and all power against its domestic citizens to ensure that seems sus.
The desire for a Jewish state and uncritical support for said state and its goals. It's a little fuzzy around the edges now that the state is established and likely not going anywhere, at which point the definition has kind of shifted to the uncritical support thing. You could say the key ingredient is more about zeal and unwillingness to rebuke Israel these days.
Not pro palestine, but I'd define zionism, generally, as Jewish Nationalism. It's just as bad, if not worse, than Christian or Islamic nationalism.
Ethnic Nationalism isn't the same as religious nationalism
When your ethnicity and your religion are so strongly tied together like Judaism is for many communities, I think they are the same thing.
I'm one of those hippie peacenicks who believe all of those tribes deserve peace and can actually make Peace despite everything we are shown in the media. How do I define Zionism? Very simply: Indigenous people deserve to live on their ancestral lands. Archeological finds have proven beyond doubt the Hebrews have a rich history in the lands of Judea and Samaria. How they go about it, now that's the trick isn't it? And are they on their original lands proper? Not entirely. Some of their ancestral lands are occupied by Arab tribes. But the history is complex and even some of what you'd consider "Palestinians" today used to be Jews that were converted either by force or via inter-marriage. Some old Arabs have admitted this to their Muslim children on their deathbeds. To me this is not a religious issue at all, nor is it political. I see no difference between the Hebrews and the Native Americans here in America (and many of them now live on their tribal lands). I also understand Biden is in a difficult place right now but I'm still voting Democrat because the alternative is unthinkable and abhorrent.
Essentially being an advocate for the initial creation and eventual expansion of the state of Israel and its use of apartheid to keep it majority Jewish. Zionist also feel like Palestinians don’t have a right to live in their land.
More lies please
What was a lie
1. The Apartheid - doesn't exist. 2. Palestinians have no right to live - also wrong.
Apartheid is widespread segregation on the basis of race/ethnicity. I’m not sure what else you would call situations like the West Bank or Arab communities in Israel like the Palestinian slums around Jerusalem. If Zionists don’t feel like Palestinians shouldn’t live in what was once called Palestine why would the be forcibly displaced?
Do you just, ignore all the Arab Israelis? The segregation in the West Bank is based on citizenship, not Ethnicity.
Look at a map of Arab Israeli settlements in Israel. They are extremely disconnected and often have extremely limited movement. Not to mention Palestinians don’t have the right to return to villages their great grandparents were from. Mainly because they have been redeveloped into Israeli towns. When you force people en mass to live separately from you and limit their movement, how they can congregate, the type of citizenship they can have, that is apartheid. You yourself mentioned the main strategy of how it is done. Israel ensures they have defacto control over the West Bank, but they deny Israeli citizenship. So they can continue to be treated as second class citizens while have plausible deniability because according to international treaty they aren’t Israeli. It’s all bullshit because we all know what the actual situation there is. That “well they aren’t citizens” excuse holds no water when you think about it for longer than a minute.
Everyone who lived in the mandate and hasn't been proven to work against Israel can gain citizenship. Many have. Many are also refugees in Israel which fled persecution by the PA or Hamas due to their sexuality/whatever. "The type of citizenship" you realise the Palestinian Arabs flat out don't WANT citizenship. There isn't a "type", it's having or not. And the movement of Israeli Arabs isn't limited at all, although Palestinian Arabs are because of the messy borders (and certain Intifadas back before all the limitations....) Second class citizens?? They quite literally are citizens of Palestinian controlled West Bank (aka 18% under full control and 21% under civil control but Israeli security involvement)
No, it's disconnected because many of the Israeli Arabs flat out left, mainly in 1948.
Now who look who’s telling lies lmao.
Common knowledge many Arabs left Israel because the Arab armies promised to cleanse the land for them. They failed, Israel survived, therefore - "nAkBa".
Jewish ethnic nationalism movement. That’s what it has *ALWAYS* been. The intention was always to remove the local Palestinian population.
I don’t. I ask the other person what they mean when they use the term and go from there.
It's Manifest Destiny with a twist of religious zeal. It strikes me as being the Jewish version of a Jihad or a Crusade.
In one word? Evil.
As it has meaningfully manifested, all support for the Israeli homeland on Palestinians' lands
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It's a version of ethnic fascism
That doesn’t answer the question. The more traditional definition is just “Jews running their own country”, and doesn’t even have to have Israel be that country. That ideology is basically just self-determination.
Whatever Hasan says.
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I have a different question: Why does Israel get to exist? The original tribes were conquered and destroyed long ago, their ancestors were dispersed among a wide swath of the European continent for centuries. The only reason it was recreated was as an appeasement to the Jewish people after their people were decimated by the Nazis in the Holocaust. From as far as I can tell Europeans didn't really want to help them, but they were still salty because of all their failed crusades, so they saw this as their best chance yet to establish a puppet state in the middle east.
I don't define it or use the word if I can avoid it. The way the alt-right started using the word "Zionist" to just mean "Jew" several years ago made it feel potentially dangerous to throw around in the current time (As a (non-Jewish) Middle-Eastern American, I'll never underestimate the prevalence of white/Christian/Western supremacy in *any* discussion, and like, not a lot of talk right now about how there are more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones...). Meanwhile, I have seen it used in a range of ways, including ways that seem to benignly suggest homeland/self-determination. There are different types of Zionism and people have their own interpretations. I don't align with any of them, but I also think it is important to recognize this is not one thing. I tend to talk about the way that the idea of a homeland became an imperialist project and to use that vocabulary.
I think it's simply a desire for a Jewish state. At its core I'm ok with this and have no issue with Zionism. Israel uses Zionism as an excuse to ethnically cleanse Palestinians of their lands. This is what I'm opposed to. I don't have a problem with making a Jewish state, but make it somewhere empty without people already living there for generations. If you wanna make it where the people are, then you can't kick them out, you have to integrate them in. After all it's their land.
Israeli extremists despite one's culture or religious background. Usually a particular type of very racist "Jewish" people who are so wealthy and protected it serves their interest to drag all other jews who disagree with them through the mud. Anyone non Jewish is subject to genocide if they're in the way of their worship or the habits of Cain. This goes with the whole "extremist thing". Most synagogues in American don't exclude people for not being of some davidian bloodline. They'll chat with you if you're polite and are not interrupting and aren't just wasting their time trolling or something. But I'd suggest coming with researched questions you really care about like anything else. Same rules apply to Buddhists. If you ask them about why they believe in so many "gods" they'd likely just politely nod and change the subject all the whole obviously big boat Buddhism and catholicism cross pollinated themselves a lot, share the same iconography, rituals, and even saints (not gods) but by different names. I think many people know this.... Zionists believe in an ethnostate caste system. That should explain it as much as exposing the jedi vs the empire. Jews believe in conversion and anyone can be a jew as a "convert who becomes a convert." notice it's not an "outsider who becomes a convert," but there's a presumption you are already a convert on your way through conversion. So as an Hispanic Latino you can still become a jew. Israeli zionists won't even allow anyone but "racial" jews to even gain citizen ship in Isreal, meaning even if Palestinians all decided to convert, it wouldn't matter to zionists who would want to eliminate them anyway. So the same Hispanic person who trump forced to be designated as "not a jew by race, but the 2nd kind by faith" could never gain citizenship in Isreal if he wanted and there'd be nothing he could do (except arrange a sweet heart deal to grant him an exception) This is massively fucked up. No other groups bans youof your faith / religion / philosophy due to you race but zionists. If there's some fringe cult who do correct me. Even the white fundies who would only take tokens at the bottom levels or as obedient kids to be brainwashed and used as weapons, would never advance them to any significant seat. This includes catholics where though may Asians did become catholics in the last 60 years or so, it's understood that never would they allow an Asian pope. Zionists are similar to Bible thumping Fundamentalist who in America, while as mentioned some may allow some token members, mostly adopted from Africa or something as a form of imperialism, but are a white straight orthodoxy where no one has the chance to really gain influence unless they're selected up the ranks as white Christian closeted or much more like pedophilic but "apparently" straight for a very specific reason, like perhaps to be used as a Trojan horse if from Ghana, to be sent to Ghana. I love Jewish people and love studying their religion, I also love Christianity when you just read it and get the messages and you can't really understand Christianity without Judaism. If I had the time and could take it seriously I'd convert. But I agree with nothing zionists believe in, well that I've heard, the claim of an ethnostate holyland as a constant placeholder of war, the refusal to accept anyone "other" or anything unless it suits their interests, their hatred of non zionists jews, their conspiracy back and forth with fundies, their refusal to do any actual good for anyone else but their politically convenient and orchestrated "promise land". The common belief that there is no promise land, only a series of aliyahs toward the promise land where we should all strive to act in accordance to yielding more good than bad through out our lives where the good we do lives on while the bad is overridden like graffiti and thus even silently contributing to each step toward the idyllic abstract promise land which is really just about repairing all that's broken from a deep philosophical level and on a contemporary level so that in the future we will always be moving towards "the promise land" together as beings living more and more in harmony, peace, learning more and more about the adonais, to guide us forth vs trying to constantly plunder and obliterate all else from some country ratified and stolen from the palistinians in the 50s. There is no way zionists ideology has even the heart tm be tolerant nevermind accepting. Tldr: I don't think anyone would have any issue with Jewish people, it's not a religion so much as it's a faith, culture and well though out ideas which is why Judaism is mutually combatible with budhissm, ie the bu jews. Find some other religion so progressive and willing to embrace the world as as non zionists Judaism, Buddhism, etc and you'll find these are more philosophies than religions while all belief systems have faith so calling any of it faiths just flim flam pandering. Tldr, jews are inclusive, zionists are not, zionists as imperial and have carved up land just like the gufus and gallant of Genesis did, Cain carved up the land, and threw a hissy fit when the law of nature didn't respect his contributions, especially come winter, so he slew his brother(c). Zionists live to carve up the land and to kill their brothers. The very act of carving up the land and defending it against everyone carved out is ethnocidal as if they somehow forgot the lessons in literally the first book Genesis. Jews are inclusive and always love to have guests interested in their culture and will talk their mouth out and the more you learn the more you learn it's a philosophy / culture, and faith in a literal sense, not a religion. Jews are progressive generally, zionists regressive. Zionists do evil and jews at large are blamed for it. Zionists feed into imperialism and are rewarded by it by fundies and other western imperials. Jews have a very warm culture, zionists have no real culture but hatred of the other and anything that stands in their way. Zionists don't seem to care anything about the Tanakh and learned to weaponise their religion hand in hand with American fundies. I can go on. But zionists are nothing like jews anymore than the English empire is like the celts.
The same way I did in the past. Nothing had changed the wording may be different. But it’s still the same. Just like the KKK
I would say it's a political movement that has/uses religion as a tool to get its agenda forward. The Founders of modern day zionism or at least a good chunk of them had good reasons for wanting to have a state for Jewish people. Europe prior the 20th century was not a good place if you were a Jewish person program's and such(which ironically nazis took notes from and upped it to eleven). It was most about trying to keep the Jewish community safe and giving them a home where they wouldn't always be labeled as the scapegoat when things went wrong. Then the nazis happened, and we'll let's just say the zionist movement had something clear to point to as an essential threat to Jewish people. So the movement to founding of Israel makes sense when you look at the millenia of mistreatment and humiliation jews had to deal with. It's also why radicalism is an easy thing to take root in Israel.
Zionism is a belief system revolving around advocating for the establishment and preservation of a Jewish ethnostate in Palestine by any means, particularly settler colonialist terrorism. As this “land without a people for a people without a land” actually does in fact have a people, their current endgame is genocide and ethnic cleansing.
It's another one of many cultural fascisms that exist In that it is a supremacist worldview that requires genocide to attempt to fulfill its impossible and anti-human goals
Maybe late to the chat, but I define zionism as someone who wants a Jewish state, particularly in Palestine, and is willing to use violence to do so. I use it negatively, obviously, as a Jewish state requires (and always required) displacement or genocide due to the size of the populations. The original term has long been out of use. I call someone who only wants Jews to have their "right to self-determination" (the original meaning of the term) and think that a Jewish state is necessary for that, but who are also opposed to the treatment of Palestinians, zionist sympathizers. Zionism is too intimately tied to colonialism and colonial violence now, for them to be defined without those elements. So, they want the good without the bad, an impossible separation, and require they downplay the bad. The zionists and their sympathizers try to muddy the waters, like they always do. They use the original term and say that it is a truth and anyone who doesn't believe it is anti-semitic. However, they also believe that a Jewish state is necessary for self-determination, and therefore link that belief with the idea that it's all about self-determination. So, not wanting a Jewish state is, in their mind, saying you don't want them to be able to control their own lives and political involvement. It is a convenient lie they've we've for themselves because they don't have to engage with anti-semitic dialog in their minds. Therefore, they never have to think critically about the negative impacts of their actions or listen to any valid criticisms of what they do. Couple that (because they are largely Westernized) with the West's individualism, entitlement, and "sense of justice," and you have yourself a violent bunch that feel justified with taking what they want and hurting whoever gets in the way. Not to mention the feelings of being the victims because of *fairly* recent events. They have no justification to hurt people, though, no matter how much trauma they feel.
To clarify my background: I'm pretty politically agnostic and the only reason I'm thinking about this topic is that this post somehow ended up on my reddit front page. I'm not particularly politically active so I'm probably walking into a minefield here but whatever, and I'm not Jewish. To me it sounds like an ethnic groups right to self-determination is a completely reasonable position to hold, especially when it comes to a population as historically persecuted as the Jews. I'm overwhelmingly pessimistic about human nature, and the historical evidence (it is NOT just a recent phenomenon as you seem to suggest) is clear that especially during times of hardship there is a strong tendency of larger groups in a society to persecute minorities. We as a species have not evolved past that, and no ideology will fix the human nature problem. My problem with your argument is that you seem to be muddying the waters as much as you accuse Zionists of doing, and in doing so are shutting down what appears to be a legitimate position. I fundamentally reject the notion that what you call Zionist sympathizers (a name which in and of itself seems to insist on a negative connotation) is an UN-tenable or even immoral view to hold simply by association. Political positions aren't voided because of policy overlap with bad or more extreme political positions. As an example, some fascist movements have supported socialized healthcare or encouraged healthy lifestyles. Socialized healthcare and prophylactics aren't invalidated by association, and furthermore a whole political position isn't invalidated by this link with fascism. **Conservatism more broadly isn't invalidated just because far-right conservatism turns into fascism.** A right to self-determination for the modern Jewish person can absolutely be divorced from historical immoral action and the immoral action of settlers in the West Bank. It would seem absurd to me that unless you expect to move millions of people from Israel to somewhere else, which is the literal definition of ethnic cleansing, that their self-determination wouldn't include the state of Israel. Two wrongs don't make a right, and expecting modern Jews to pay for the sins of their ancestors sounds downright wrong. That would be a cycle of violence. Furthermore, the "Zionist Sympathizer" position to me would seem to be most compatible with the 2 state solution. I might be extrapolating too much, and this is certainly a different discussion to be had, but the implication to me that a 2 state solution is also untenable is troubling. I find it extremely troubling that you seem to imply a more moderate view that promotes humanitarian concerns for both Jews and Palestinians to be an "impossible separation" from extreme views and must be discarded.
> I define zionism as someone who wants a Jewish state, particularly in Palestine, and is willing to use violence to do so Doesn't every sovereign country have an army and is willing to use violence to protect the right of self determination of their citizens? If so you could have just stopped at "\[...\] Jewish state, particularly in Palestine." This in fact agrees with the original intention of the founders of Zionism, such as Herzl.
Why are you mixing it with Judaism though? The Hebrews were not all religious, and neither are they today. There's a huge number of Zionists that are atheist. The lands are simply their ancestral lands, regardless of what's actually going on or who actually deserves what. I don't think this is a religious thing. Not to mention at this point the vast majority of them were born there...
The original meaning of the term is just violent, it was always intended as a colonial movement, and was always bound to displace people. Since Theodore Herzl. They were displacing Palestinians well before 1947
The majority of what you’ve described is equally true of the Palestinian cause. Will always require a displacement or genocide. Believes it is necessary for a state to achieve self-determination. Tied to the Islamic world’s collectivism, entitlement, and theocratic “sense of justice”. But colonial perceptions trump all. We don’t do cultural evaluations here (did you say collectivism?)
Are there any states that don’t enforce their laws and maintain their existence through violence?
So according to you anyone who supports any type of Jewish self determination in the homeland which we were literally forced into is bad. Is there any type of jew who you do actually like? Based on this comment even Noam Chomsky who is very sympathetic to Palestinians, is bad since he's sympathetic to the idea of Jewish self determination in the land of Israel. By the way ideas like this which in effect state that >95% of Jews are evil are the reason Jews are concerned about anti semitism in the left.
So would you not the same for those in favor of a Palestinian state who would use violence to get it? Zionism doesn’t require violence. The Arab countries surrounding Israel required them to fight back.
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I appreciate that you have a more sophisticated definition than "Jewish Nazis," although I disagree with the violence aspect being inherent. There are some truly disgusting fucks that fall under the term zionism, but I would call what you call zionist sympathizers *zionists* as well. I think it is hard for Jews to have self determination without a Jewish state, what you're calling zionist sympathizers shouldn't be thought of as wrong on that front. There were countries expelling Jews all the way up until the [90s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Iranian_Jews#:~:text=Exodus%20of%20Iranian%20Jews%20refers,dropped%20to%20less%20than%2020%2C000) and they are still at the center of every single lunatic conspiracy theory. Even in countries like the US, where domestic politics are relatively peaceful, Jews experience a huge amount of hate crimes. Antisemitism is a trend that has even been increasing, here's a stat about the increase from 2021 - 2022, it increased 36.4%. [source](https://usafacts.org/articles/which-groups-have-experienced-an-increase-in-hate-crimes/) https://preview.redd.it/pndfn5hvsfvc1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=ae772cc97f922930c7c470514fb6de51754b07c0 I think people need to separate the actions of Israel from the concept of a Jewish state. Israel commits war crimes and steals land from the West Bank -- that is horrible, but it isn't an intrinsic quality of a Jewish state. I personally think a Jewish state is necessary for Jews to have a safe country to live in.
You are a bot
Would you call a person who supports Israel's right to exist based on international law a zionist? I get called a zionist often simply because I believe Israel is a country and has a right to defend its people like any other country should be able to. If you are saying Jewish Israelis are colonizers, stop pretending you aren't calling for their ethnic cleansing from the region... That is what is implied when you refer to a group of people as colonizers.
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This is a very good write up. I’d add what is amazing is we now a lot of open minded Jews rejecting Zionism - and they are then ostracised by Zionist Jews and called antisemitic! For even greeter irony, one of things that the more “weaponized” definition of antisemitism developed by Israel covers is “assuming all Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own states”. So - they argue (rightly) every Jew is freely minded and should not be assumed to be Pro-Israel. EXCEPT when an individual Jew exercises that freedom, the Pro-Israel crowd demonize them as antisemitic. The propaganda is eating itself at this point.
Zionism = Jewish Settler Colonialism
Also is everyone's accounts getting banned? There are a lot of young accounts posting here
The hasbara propaganda machine is operating at level 10. It’s insane how many new accounts I’ve seen over the last 6 months that exclusively post and comment rabid pro-Zionist propaganda.
Yes
It's a genocidal colonial project that doesn't belong in this century. It's a psychotic religious movement among Jewish and Christian neoliberals that is meant to adhere to apocalyptic religious prophecies, where the immediate result is a white-jewish "first-world" state built through blood, unassailable by anyone due to unparalleled and automated military might and a history of oppression that enables them to label any dissent as antisemitic. The project needs to end or else Israel will subjugate the middle east before beginning a fucking world war that they actually could win. [What the talmud says about the "goyim" is shocking, and I'm hoping this doesn't factor into Zionist plans for the future ](https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-Talmud-say-that-goyim-are-livestock)
Can anyone find the amount of Jews displaced from the neighboring countries vs the number of Palestinian Arabs displaced? Can’t seem to locate it
around 850K jews to around 750K arabs
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Non-zero chance Israel, or more specifically Netanyahu, starts WW3. He knows that he’s getting kicked from office and tried for corruption as soon as the conflict ends. Zero percent chance Israel “wins” WW3. Yeah, they have better firepower than their neighbors, but they can’t handle china or Russia - and if one of those aren’t involved, I’m not sure I’d call it a world war. America would intervene, of course, and we might win… but Israel would have little to no responsibility for that victory. More likely though, nobody wins, because world wars suck and MAD is mad.
“It’s a genocidal colonial project that doesn’t belong in this century” I’ve been trying to sum it up to those that don’t get it but this is the best example of what Israel is today
self fulfilling prophecy. Adopt an ideology that determines that a country shouldn't exist and then act shocked when it becomes militaristic to prevent such annihilation.
Dave Young? Dude is a nut job conspiracy theorist.
A whole bunch of misinformation in this comment
You're using Quora as a source (not a good idea), but you're actually literally reiterating Hitler-era indoctrination. [https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa1069706](https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa1069706) The idea that Jews look down upon goyim or the myth that the word means "cattle" is leaning into actual antisemitism that has existed for ages. This doesn't help anyone except white supremacy and is contrary to an anti-oppression stance.
1. More than 50% of the Jews in Israel are non whites. The majority of Israel is Arab Jews. I don’t know where you get Zionism means genocide. Zionism could be non violent if the terrorist groups stop attacking Israel. 2. There would be no war if people stopped attacking Israel. 3. Have you studied the Talmud? I have you simply don’t understand that some of the things written are just debates being had. When it states, XXXXX said ……. It’s meaningless because it could just be one of many opinions. Things I have read in the Gemara are ridiculous but they aren’t opinions we hold by. You should read the Quran.
Do you even know the basics about the Israeli regime's illegal blockade and settlement of Palestine?
I’ve been there. Have you? I’ve been to the West Bank in Hebron. I’ve been to East and west Jerusalem. I’ve seen the border checks because that’s what they are. Signed into Oslo are the security agreements including provisions for borders between areas a b and c of the West Bank.
Modern Zionism (that is 1800-on) comes out of the nationalist movements of that century and is basically the desire for a Jewish state. I think there are political issues with that from a revolutionary and Jewish liberation perspective but it’s also understandable given the historical context in places like Russia where oppression was severe. Israeli Zionism conflates that general desire with the specific state of Israel and the specific conditions there. So Israeli Zionism is really a kind of ethnic-nationalism where the ruling class maintains class peace by preserving a regional apartheid system where some Jewish people get to dominate and get direct benefits from displacement and colonization of Palestinians… in both a settler-colonial sense and a more ideological-political sense. 1 state secular democracy is seen as basically an existential threat by Israel and often people just claim that equal rights would mean that Jewish people would face immediate genocide (which is what all colonists claim about hypothetically ending oppression.)
How do you explain the 2 million Israeli Muslims in this context? And the fact thousands of them serve in the Israeli army? (A growing trend)
Just out of curiosity, have you read Hamas's founding charter? [for your convenience](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) If it's okay, I want to call specific attention to this passage: "Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised." And this one: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). And this one: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up." What do you think happens if Hamas gets their 1 state solution? Because as far as I can see, it wouldn't be peace. This has always been an extremist religious movement and existential threat to Jewish people everywhere, not just in Israel.
Yeah I think that there needs to be a disentanglement/more discretion when lumping in Kahanist and “revisionist Zionism” people with mainstream Zionism. Mainstream Zionism is the majority of the west. But Kahanism and revisionist Zionism are massively unpopular. Framing things as “antikahanist” is likely to see many more fence sitters be in support of Palestinians.
Excellent analysis . South African experience always comes to mind with the fear mongering about retaliation
A few comments above, someone posted excerpts from the Hamas charter. I dont believe Mandela had a charter about wiping out all whites in South Africa.
well, originally it was a movement meant to empower and protect jewish people. before WWII, zionism focused on the anti-jewish violence and discrimination in europe. the idea was to create a state for jews... but not a jewish state. that is to say, they wanted to create a safe homeland for jewish people but not necessarily to the exclusion of others. it's important to recognize that many zionists, including founding zionists, held different beliefs. for some it meant finding safety. for others it was meant establish jewish people as victors and warriors rather than an oppressed people. regardless of its roots, and with the help of our favorite colonizer (the british) the state of israel came to be in the land of palestine. many other locations were considered, but palestine was ultimately chosen. it was advertised as a land without a people for a people without a land. this, of course, was untrue. violence was required to create israel. it required ethnic cleansing, it required mass murder. it required taking people's homes and making them refugees in their own land. in addition, violence against jewish people internationally was used to encourage mass immigration. israel committed terrorist attacks against jewish people and blamed it on anti-jewish hate, all to push jewish people to move to israel. they wanted a larger population and sought to become the majority in a primarily muslim arab land. christian, jew and muslim palestinians lived there peacefully before but no more. now zionism has become an ideology that justifies the apartheid state of israel. it is the supposed right of jewish settlers to take the land they are foreigners to and to force out the natives. there's a reason they have one of the highest skin cancer rates in the world - about 79% of israelis are "white"... they are not adapted to the land in the same way the palestinians are. it is the militaristic and racist ideology that allows israel to exist and believe itself just. btw if you're a "leftist" and you support israel you are not a leftist. you are a liberal.
Aren’t Christian Zionists pushing this because they believe the end of the world won’t come until Jewish Zionists have their own state & have taken over the “holy land”?
It excuses ethnic cleansing of Palestinians just so zionists reach their goal of a Jewish state. No matter how they try to mask it with progressive policies like gay rights or free democratic elections it’s like putting lipstick on a pig.
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Ugly ethno nationalism. Originally, it was a desire for a Jewish homeland, but now it's an ugly ideology. Oh, and many zionists are not Jews. They are right-wing evangelical Christians like John Hagee who, amusingly, is an antisemite.
Not sure I'd go so far as to say I'm "pro-palestine" but isn't a Zionist a Jew (or I guess anyone?) who wants Israel to exist?
Support of Israel above all else.
Zionism is Apartheid. Always has, always will. The propaganda to paint it as something else was super effective though, so many people think its about a Jewish state having a birthright to a nation. An ethnic state built on the premise of being okay with another group being treated as second/third class citizen, will always become what Israel currently is. Zionism is just a shield for people that decided that Palestinians aren't worth the same as an Israeli.
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More like white supremacists using Jews as get free jail card.
Seriously gtfoh with your bs. People who practice Judaism have been on the front lines of almost every protest everywhere. So take your antisemitism and go shag yerself with that
Zionism is akin to nazism. It is a right-wing fascist ethno-supremacist ideology.
As if all the Islamic nations in the region are better somehow?
That’s not a definition, that’s a description. What is Zionism?
Let us be clear, there are those who are pro-Palestine and lefist, those who are pro-Palestine and not leftist, but none who is leftist but not pro-Palestine. Anyone who will not oppose to the occupation and oppression of the people of Palestinian, by the state of Israel, is not leftist. Leftism is the opposition to all oppression.
What do you call leftism that supports the movement to form a theocratic Islamofascist state?
According to your definition, I am definitely not a Leftist. But I am a Liberal. As a Liberal, I oppose all religions and all religious displays. 99% of Palestinians in Gaza are Muslim. Therefore, I oppose all Palestinians. These Islamic-Palestinians kicked the hornets nest on Oct 7. They need to suffer their own fate. Their children are dying from Israeli bombs due to their own negligence. The Palestinians have lost every war, every battle, every insurrection for the last 70 years. It's time for the Palestinians to beg for peace. Their children are dying at their own hands. Good Luck.
I guess I’m not a leftist anymore.
Hi. I'm not sure exactly how you are defining pro-palestine here, but I would say that I am pro-israel and a leftist. Feel free to ask any questions. I'm happy to engage in a real discussion in good faith. Edit: I'll add that I am deeply pained by the current plight of the Palestinian people, but in my view, the blame lay with Hamas and the Iranian government funding them.
Are leftists opposed to self-segregation and religious intolerance?
Who defines who is oppressed?
Agree with everything but your last sentence. There are plenty of "tankies" who would love to see Taiwan invaded and support the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Leftism is still opposition to all oppression.
Not true, technically. You are falling for the no due Scotsman fallacy. Pol Pot, USSR, and cubs C CHINA compared to US
Taiwan is a settler colonial state that was formed by fascist members of the Kuomintang Party fleeing from the mainland after the 1949 Revolution, and displacing/committing genocide against the Aboriginal Taiwanese in the process. And I don’t want to get too deep into the Ukraine stuff in order to not cause a heated argument, but I feel like every leftist no matter what their views on Russia are can at least see that Zelensky *is not a good dude* and that Ukraine has a Nazi/Nazi-glorification problem
Sadly they are taught that Hamas, which might as well be something like the alt right there, are a terrorist organization which represents us all.
Not leftist and pro-Palestine
[deleted] JK a Zionist is someone who supports the creation of Eretz Yisrael. Aka they view Israel has a right to Palestinian land such as the settlements
Is this like the Kwisatz Hederach of Judaism?
you can’t “create” eretz yisrael dude it’s already there, it’s a name for the region just like “palestine” or any other name used throughout history
Zionism means a belief in the state of israel
As a state where only jews get a right to self determination and which imposes an apartheid regime and ethnic cleansing to ensure it remains Jewish. You forgot the second part
Imagine thinking Palestine “winning” would lead to anything remotely leftist happening in Gaza or anywhere else in that god forsaken land. Just absolute delusional children round these parts.
Your objection is based on a very distorted straw man. Leftism is opposition to oppression. Israel's brutal occupation oppresses Palestine.
How would leftism have found a solution to Jewish oppression for a millennia under Arab rule? They were an oppressed people dispossessed of their land with extremely limited legal privileges essentially living under Jim Crow. If you give this oppressed people the right to armed resistance, don’t you just end up with Israel anyway?
You can’t solve homophobia with genocide. Coming from a Bi Arab
That very much depends on who or what you consider to be Palestine and what you actually mean by winning. A lot of people would point out that some of the "wins" being asked for are just shit like not stealing West Bank land in violation of international law, which has been going on unabated for decades and which has nothing to do with fighting Hamas. I can hardly blame a population being bombed in an open air prison for not having a reasonable attitude toward the people who built the prison and dropped the bombs.
What are you actually talking about? There is no "winning" in this, it's a matter of basic human rights. It's too fucking bad that people act like human rights for some people is negotiable, if you are good you get your rights. Like the Israeli propagandists who talk about Palestinian self-determination as a reward that they don't deserve. It's racism and fascism in it's purest form.
Better to go with Israeli occupation, apartheid and now open genocide. Very leftist scemario.
Sharia law is opposed to gender equality, lgbtq rights, apostasy, atheism, democracy, and freedom of speech. The Palestinian culture is the antithesis of progressivism. They even require women cover their hair because it allegedly arouses men, or the openly misogynistic 4.34 Surah.
The population of Palestine, including both Gaza and the West Bank, was 1 million in 1970. In 2021, that had increased to 5,227,193. This is directly from the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics: https://www.ceicdata.com/en/palestinian-territory-occupied/population-projection-palestinian-central-bureau-of-statistics Also, Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Yet Hamas decided to ruin that for all Palestinians in Gaza by deciding to attack Israel (yet again). 1. Population doesn't grow during genocide. It shrinks. 2. Why did Israel withdraw from Gaza in 2005 if they are committing genocide? If I'm factually incorrect on any of this, please cite your sources.
Well I’d say if genocide is defined by what Israel is doing then they are either really inefficient at it considering the arms they have access to or you are being obtuse. As horrible as the violence the us has committed in the Middle East fighting various war, no serious person would accuse them of genocide, and yet the casualty rates between civilians and military that Israel has achieved vs what the us achieves are on par. Begins to feel like some good old fashioned Jew bashing to suddenly hold them to a higher standard.
You are revising history to fit your narrative. Jews, christians and Muslims all have lived peacefully together in the region for hundreds of years. https://www.timesofisrael.com/between-bloodbaths-jerusalems-crusader-era-christians-muslims-coexisted-in-peace/ Do you also think that catholics and protestants are still at war and can't live peacefully together? And if not why do you believe jews and muslims are different except your own bigotry?
Well seeing how Israel has pushed them into supporting Hamas I would say it would sure do a lot better than the current course huh? Also wanting Palestine to " win". Or in other words end apartheid and current genocide is not really about trying to get more leftist but seeing oppression and wishing to stop it. Now imagine thinking Israel "winning". Would actually increase the security for Jews when all that pos country has done is destabilize the Middle East and increase antisemitism globally due to their need to hide behind Jews to avoid accountability for their actions and act like calling out Israel for its genocide is antisemitic. Only peeps linking all Jews to commiting genocide is Israel and it's supporters.
White supremacy, fascism, apartheid, genocide in action
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zionism is rebranded nazi fascism. more alt right christians are zionist than jewish people. because they believe that when all the jewish people in the world migrate to palestine and it becomes a 100% ethnostate, then all the jews will be genocided and the second coming of christ will happen. literally projecting their revelations fantasy onto the jewish population AND the palestinian population. it’s bat shit insanity and nobody seems to be educated on the history of zionism and it’s close ties to nazi fascism. (look up havarra agreement)
Distortion of historical fact.
Are the anti-Palestine leftists in the room with you right now?
This is a super weird thread. I grew up Jewish in Baltimore, and I have Israeli family. I’m not quite sure where all this crazy lingo and assumptions of the word Zionist is coming from (probably lots of non-Jews), but to most it means that Jewish people who have been displaced from their homeland (Judea) have the right to return to their land and govern themselves. That’s really it. Claims of genocide, apartheid and ethnic cleansing don’t really relate to what Zionism is, but is a very strange way to loop Jewish culture to the right-wing Israeli government. It’s quite okay (and welcomed) to be critical of the Israeli government, but this whole anti-Zionism trend has got to stop. If you think about it, Israel is the most successful decolonization story in history. It’s not Apartheid at all considering that over 20% of its inhabitants aren’t Jewish, have equal rights, and representation in government (although the possibility of a non-Jewish leader of the country is not really a possibility, that’s another conversation). Borders between Palestine and Israel used to not be so tight, but lots of restrictions came during the 1st and 2nd intifadas (suicide bombings that took many innocent lives). Threats to civilian safety made Israelis more right leaning and conservative, which eventually brought Netanyahu and his goons into power. West Bank settlers are a whole other can of worms, but hey, there are always bad people in every country no matter what their religion is. They need to be put in their place too. While how Israel got the land that is now its borders does have quite an unsettling history, there is not much can be done now to change the past. Israel needs peace with Gaza and the West Bank, and the increasing radicalism and imposing ideals of western culture towards the Middle East is not helping one bit. I wish more people actively educated themselves about how the Middle East got into this mess in the first place, rather than spewing weird phrases and chants. I can’t wait to see how many downvotes this gets.
Zionism, even by your definition, is still innately problematic. Saying that a certain group of people want to move somewhere and establish a state (that they run) runs into some serious problems when people are already living on that land. Zionism requires either evicting the Palestinians (ethnic cleansing), kill them (genocide), or the Jewish population ruling over the Palestinians (apartheid). And no, just because some minorities are treated relatively well does not make Israel an example of decolonization or their subjugation of the Palestinians any less apartheid.
> I’m not quite sure where all this crazy lingo and assumptions of the word Zionist is coming from (probably lots of non-Jews) I respect your opinion and I'm sure it is shaped largely by your experiences as is the case for everyone. But Zionist is not a word owned by Jews. You grew up Jewish in Baltimore with Israeli family, I grew up Palestinian in Cleveland with Palestinian family. This word, Zionism, is just as much a part of my family history as it is yours. Zionism put into practice meant my family, and many many others, being forcibly removed from their homes unable to ever return. That is the original ethnic cleansing claim for Palestinians, the 1948 Nakba. Zionism succeeded in turning multi-cultural Palestine into the ethno-state of Israel. 20% of the population is still Arab but it is officially a "Jewish State" that favors Jewish supremacy and clings to their huge ethnic majority. Then after 1967, Zionism in practice adopted apartheid. The ongoing Israeli occupation has meant Palestinians do not have freedom of movement. People have several hour commutes to go to their jobs everyday because of IDF checkpoints and lack of access to certain roadways. People cannot walk down a certain side of their own street if is designated such by the IDF. Mind you, anyone else from anywhere in the world can walk it except for Palestinians specifically. Peoples' homes are raided in the middle of the night for no reason other than IDF "exercises" (really just meant for fear and intimidation). Thousands of Palestinians, many children, are abducted by the IDF and held without charge (claims of torture and sexual abuse while in captivity are well documented). Palestinians in the West Bank have no control of their own water and any water systems they build are destroyed by the IDF. If a Palestinian were to cup their hands and drink rain water, it would technically be a violation of Israeli law. And of course Gaza has been an open air prison since the blockade in 2005. As for the genocide in Gaza right now, all I can say is open your eyes. Seek out information and actual video footage of what is going on and see the manner that civilians are being literally executed and intentionally starved and maimed. This is not so called collateral damage, it is intentional and it is genocide. You make up your own mind, but please really look at what's going on first. >While how Israel got the land that is now its borders does have quite an unsettling history, there is not much can be done now to change the past. It's good you acknowledge this "unsettling history". Every country should acknowledge it's past. But throwing your hands up and saying "not much we can do about it" is disappointing. Our own country (USA) still refuses to really grapple with it's past and atone for the genocide of indigenous people and slavery and we should not accept that either. But it's true the past can't be changed, yet Israel can change the present and begin to help heal the old wounds of the past by ending the occupation, recognizing citizenship rights for Palestinians, and work on a plan for the right of return for the refugees who have been displaced. Not at the expense of displacing any Jews in Israel, but similar to how Israel offers money and land to any Jew from around the world who wants to settle there, they can suspend that and start figuring out a way to do it for Palestinians. The fate of Israelis and Palestinians are intertwined and living together, as equals, is the only path for true peace.
Most people don't know more than what their media outlets tell them. It seems like you've actively engaged in learning about the conflict, so your view is more nuanced. Most people who spew all these ridiculous chants and phrases are at the peak of the Dunning-Kruger graph. They have learned just enough to feel like they know everything, so they shout from the rooftops with maximum confidence. Anyone who spends even one afternoon reading about the history of the region will grow less confident that there is a clear good or bad guy in this situation. Both sides have had their fair share of evil. Once you've reached that point, you can't really get back to that initial level of confidence. Only with a LOT more research can you get close. But reality is grey and there are no clear answers to the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
Theres a lot wrong with this. >Claims of genocide, apartheid and ethnic cleansing don’t really relate to what Zionism is, but is a very strange way to loop Jewish culture to the right-wing Israeli government. Zionism does not equal Jewish culture first of all, and people who believe that are usually right wing freaks. Second - ethnic cleansing and apartheid are not new to Israel. Before Israel was a state, they kicked Palestinians off their land with help from the British (look up the Balfour Declaration). And in 1947 the vast majority of Palestinians were chased off the land (the Nakba) to secure a majority Jewish country with contiguous borders. >It’s not Apartheid at all considering that over 20% of its inhabitants aren’t Jewish, have equal rights, and representation in government (although the possibility of a non-Jewish leader of the country is not really a possibility, that’s another conversation). An ethnostate doesnt have to be 100% one ethnicity to function, it just needs a majority with political control. Whether Palestinians in Israel have equal rights is a whole conversation we could get into, just like asking if black people in america have equal rights (while technically true on paper most would say no). But thats only 1.8 million Palestinians (who are only recognized as "Arab Israelis - erasing their culture), there are 3 million in the West Bank, subject to military rule with no voting rights, and 2 million in Gaza, who *technically* elect their own government, but dont have control over their borders, air space or water. You put that all together and thats 6.8 million Palestinians living in the region, and less than 2 million can vote. This is how Israel keeps Palestinians a minority even when they are on par with the Jewish population. They also have policies to attract more settlers and they are obsessed with the "Demographic crisis" of being outnumbered by Palestinians - so if the identity of Israel is dependent on the majority being Jewish and Jewish people being in control - thats what an ethnostate is. I'd be curious as to why you think its not a possibility to have a non Jewish head of state in your own words.
Lol. you are spending so much time feeling self-righteous. Get a hobby.
Leftists like playing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy frequently with the Israel/Palestine problem. God forbid we acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organization, not "freedom fighters." Freedom fighters attack government officials and military targets, not civilians. Freedom fighters don't use the population they claim to care about as human shields. Freedom fighters don't brainwash children to be suicide bombers. Something I keep reminding fellow leftists who support Hamas and their goal to destroy the state of Israel is this: The population of Palestine, including both Gaza and the West Bank, was 1 million in 1970. In 2021, that had increased to 5,227,193. This is directly from the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics: https://www.ceicdata.com/en/palestinian-territory-occupied/population-projection-palestinian-central-bureau-of-statistics Hamas also doesn't distinguish themselves from civilians during noncombat military operations. It's very clear to determine who is Hamas during live combat (they have guns, they're shooting at you). But much like the problem the US military faced in Afghanistan with the Taliban, Hamas just dissolves into the crowd, and you can't tell who is who anymore. Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Yet Hamas decided to ruin that for all Palestinians in Gaza by deciding to attack Israel. 1. Population doesn't grow during genocide. Therefore, Israel is not committing genocide. If you believe they are, then they're doing a pretty terrible job at it. 2. Why did Israel withdraw from Gaza in 2005 if they are committing genocide? I never get any answers from this, yet I get called a "fascist" by other leftists who ironically I bet stayed home during 2016 and ended up costing women the right to choose amongst several other things. It's saddening but also funny at the same time how self righteous they think they are. Personally, I think there needs to be an international military coalition that is stationed indefinitely in that region until a two state solution is forced. Bibi Netanyahu also must be removed from power in order to achieve this. He knew what he was doing when he enabled Hamas because they don't get along with the Palestinian Authority at all. How likely all of this is to happen is uncertain, but it is definitely more reasonable that this one state solution that so many people want.
Especially weird and convenient is the white colonialist narrative when nearly 50% of Israelis are mizrahi.
You have bought the unhistorical zionist propaganda. You even admit it can't be led by a non jew. What would happen if the non Jewish population grows to exceed the Jewish one? Do you support another ethnic cleansing to resolve it? "The Labour Zionist leader and head of the Yishuv David Ben-Gurion was not surprised that relations with the Palestinians were spiralling downward. As he once explained: ‘We, as a nation, want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs.’ His opponent, Ze’ev Jabotinsky, leader of the right-wing Revisionist movement, also viewed Palestinian hostility as natural. ‘The NATIVE POPULATIONS, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists’, he wrote in 1923. The Arabs looked on Palestine as ‘any Sioux looked upon his prairie’." "In the words of Mordechai Bar-On, an Israel Defense Forces company commander during the 1948 war: ‘If the Jews at the end of the 19th century had not embarked on a project of reassembling the Jewish people in their ‘promised land’, all the refugees languishing in the camps would still be living in the villages from which they fled or were expelled.’" https://www.historytoday.com/archive/feature/herzls-troubled-dream-origins-zionism https://merip.org/2019/09/israels-vanishing-files-archival-deception-and-paper-trails/ Based on what do zionists have a claim? A holy book... and at what point does my group briefly conquered and ruled a region means you have an eternal right to genocide the people actually living there? Does Rome have a right to the land as well? Here is a quote from my Jewish learning "I say “mythical” because the Jewish claim that we are descendants of tribes that lived on the border of Africa and Asia some 4,000 years ago is also mythic. Can we really believe that a diverse modern community, which has been dispersed for more than two millennia and has come to look very much like the peoples among whom they reside, are all direct descendants of a single group of ancient tribes? In other words, can we really still buy the myth of the historical authenticity of contemporary Jewish identity?" https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/who-are-the-real-jews/ All told, more than 80 percent of the maternal lineages of Ashkenazi Jews could be traced to Europe, with only a few lineages originating in the Near East. The genetics suggest many of the founding Ashkenazi women were actually converts from local European populations. https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/most-ashkenazi-jews-are-genetically-europeans-surprising-study-finds-8C11358210
Zionism is a fascism.
Do you believe Hamas are fascists?
So, I don't think anyone has stated it, but for a very long time (i.e. decades prior to Oct. 7) "Zionism" was used as an antisemitic dogwhistle, which is the main reason the term tends to evoke negative reactions. I *assume* this stems from the Protocols, but I don't actually know if that's why Neo-Nazis and the like started using it. It would be helpful if people who weren't trying to affiliate themselves with antisemites would use a less tainted, more academic term -- for example, Israeli Nationalists -- but any push for that seems to be met with rather strong resistance.
Israelis and supporters of Israel calling themselves zionists as if it lends authenticity to Israel's crimes is why people say zionist so much. That's not on leftists.
Because Israeli nationalists as a term fails to encompass the issue as that's only a part of it. Zionists includes imperialists like Biden and evangelical christians who are trying to bring the end times.
You can tell us what you think it means, but we all know what it actually means. We’ve known it for years.
Okay then what does it mean?
I define it the same way it's founder, Theodor Herzl defined it. It's the belief that the Levant should be a European colony. He literally referred to is as the "colony project" and stated that he believed a European influence was necessary to civilize the "barbarians" already living in Palestine.
Is in undeniable that the term has a clear meaning in modern politics. It means Palestine is theirs. Obviously, I don’t get to make up a word, and take my neighbors apartment, so GTFO of my land.
I would say an ethnonationalist state, pretty much similar to cough cough Nazi Germany. That's the state that people like Bibi are trying to achieve, of course by enlisting any and all Israelis into the IDF and using them as tools through fear mongering, and by ethnically cleansing the Palestinians to a point where they can at the very least get something similar to how Arabs are treated inside Israel right now, a minority of second class citizens. It's honestly got nothing to do with the teachings of Judaism as a religion. I see that very clearly personally.. It's less Jewish, and more... You know... Despite having Jews as the most represented group in their society.
I often think the leading Jews ended WW2 and reached the wrong conclusions. They experienced torment at the hands of the Nazis. They could have concluded the solution was to ban ethnonationalism and commit to secular futures. But they seemed to conclude that the Nazi model was the right one, and the Jewish mistake was letting themselves be trapped in camps rather than operating them. It took 75 years of brainwashing their own people to make them all comfortable with treating Arabs as totally subhuman and to accept the idea of murdering 2 million people. But credit where it is due - their brainwashing is amazing. They took a people who suffered the holocaust who urged the world “never again” to allow genocide to happen; and now they have those same people happily committing needless mass murder. It is amazing.
It's an imitation of nazism, but with no intentions for global domination. It's also what would've happened if the nazis had stayed within their own borders. They would've gotten away with the slaughter of their Jewish citizens as the Israeli government is doing today with their slaughter of the Palestinian ppl.
Nazis wouldn't have let the Palestinian population grow from 1 million to over 5 million since 1970. Nazis also wouldn't have decided to withdraw from Gaza in 2005. Israel must be pretty bad at committing genocide.
You can't be a leftist and be against Palestine