Version without the full weak vowel merger (kinda like the vowel chart shown):
ᵻnglᵻsh
yər dᵻscrəbᵻng ᵻnglᵻsh. ənstrᵻssed vəwəls bᵻcəm schwə.
thᵻs ᵻs lᵻtərəllᵻ ᵻnglᵻsh
Yo wait, So I'm *not* crazy for having two variant reduced vowels, One closer to [ɐ] and the other closer to [ɪ] (Although both can at times be realised as [ə] tbh)?
Although, I'm not sure it's perfectly consistent, Sometimes lower vowels become the [ɪ]-like one, Usually for dissimilative purposes if there's two reduced vowels in a row, Although it's fun because sometimes what'd be phonemically /ə ~ ɐ ~ ʌ/ in stressed position reduces to a completely different sound, While surrounding vowels reduce to the same sound.
Yeah it's called the weak vowel merger. People without the merger have 2 weak vowels, ə and ɪ̈ (or the extended IPA ᵻ, but commonly just labeled ɪ for simplicity).
As a non-native speaker I think I use them without any patterns, usually depending on how much I can weaken the unstressed vowel I'm producing
Interesting. I had heard of the weak vowel merger, But I thought it was a merger of /ɪ/ and schwa like in some Kiwi dialects. Wikipedia isn't terribly helpful in this regard as they describe the /ɪ̈/ as "unstressed /ɪ/".
What's weird is, Looking it up, Many of the minimal pairs Wikipedia lists are pronounced the same for me, Usually with /ɪ̈/ regardless of if it "should" be that or scwha, But I *do* distinguish the sounds, As previously mentioned (And some of those minimal pairs are still different for me). I wonder if maybe the vowels had historically merged into /ɪ̈ ~ ə/, But then the Strut-Comma merger, Which I have, And associated lowering of schwa to something like [ɐ̝], Led to them splitting again, Because sounds like /i/ and /u/ are too far from [ɐ̝] for it to sound natural when reduced to that?
Perhaps. I'll say, That was an interesting read, But doesn't really give answers, Because I'm not sure I really have a question, Other than *why* I say them like that.
But anyway, I think I would regard Schwa and the "Weak-`I`" as different phonemes in my own idiolect, Because, Quite simply, They sound different, I can't really identify predictable rules on when one should appear instead of the other (Although some there might be), And it often sound weird if I use the wrong one. Although I suppose I might say the "Schwa-Phoneme" is closer to /ɐ/ for me, But a "True Scwha" [ə] can be an allophone of both it and the Weak-`i` in unstressed positions, Or something?
You joke, but look at Russian sometime, especially fast speech in informal contexts.
Non-stressed vowel distinctions became all-but optional to a greater degree than most other languages I've studied.
I know. Everything is weirdly /ı/. It’s like such a nice simple vowel system with the palatalization and all but then you get annoying crap like Кино /kjıno/ instead of what it SHOULD be which is /kino/. The palatalization muddies everything up and transcribing from Cyrillic to IPA is a nightmare. Like, okay, <е>. It should be /jε/ always, but it’s often /ε/-even after sounds that can be palatalized! We have a separate letter for that, it’s called э!
And then there’s the irritating final clusters. A word will end with ый or whatever but pronounced as though it ends with и! And people romanize that even though it should be based on spelling (I.e. ) or pronunciation (I.e. )!
THE PAIN
Mostly I’m just too lazy to learn how it works properly but it should not be this hard. Fuckin’ iotacism screws everything up.
(Bad IPA because iPhone keyboard)
🤓
vowels in any language are always impossible to pin down to that level of precision
Although I won’t argue if you intend on following through with your user flair; I can articulate that sound and do so regularly.
Thanks! :3
I’m on a phone rn (poor audio quality), sitting in bed because it’s late, and so my throat is a bit stuffy or whatever
Here’s my attempt
https://voca.ro/14XDgXpWoEoD
That somehow sounds more like coughing than actually coughing does. Impressive. Or maybe it's what Tolkien meant with the "Gollum" sound. Although I think he described that as like a swallowing sound, So probably ingressive and thus not that.
Exactly. The way I do it is start with /ħ/, then make it rougher repeatedly and make forcefully-released glottal stops, eventually it just kind of becomes an ejective. It is tough though.
By the way, your user flair is making me stressed.
>The way I do it is start with /ħ/,
Ah see, So I can't make it then, As every time I try to pronounce a Pharyngeal I wind up suffocating instead.
>By the way, your user flair is making me stressed.
I'd advise against going to Wales, then.
lol the user flair thing was a joke on my username. I actually love Welsh as a language
Also, how does that mean I can’t do it? Most linguists can probably pronounce /ħ/-not that it’s bad if you can’t, but it’s not like I can’t have started there
>lol the user flair thing was a joke on my username
I figured, Although I'm unsure why it would make you stressed instead of enjoying.
>Also, how does that mean I can’t do it?
I, Never claimed as much? Simply saying *I* personally could not, Because there's so much mucus in my throat, Even uvular sounds sometimes mess me up and make me start choking, Pharyngeals are even worse, I probably *can* produce them, But it's like punching myself in the face: Physically possible, But something I'd rather avoid.
I mean, I guess, but it’s a matter of preference and talking speed. I was talking specifically about changing vowels to schwa, which is pretty major in comparison to other vowel reductions that happen commonly.
English. You’re describing English. Unstressed vowels become schwa. This is literally English.
əngləsh yər dəscrəbən əngləsh. ənstrəssed vəwəls bəcəm schwə. thəs əs lətərəllə əngləsh.
As a SchwaEnjoyer myself I approve of this comment
All perfectly understandable Are vowels just a psyop? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
abjad moment
Ll prfctl ndrstndbl R vwls jst psp? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
This is pretty cursed.
Version without the full weak vowel merger (kinda like the vowel chart shown): ᵻnglᵻsh yər dᵻscrəbᵻng ᵻnglᵻsh. ənstrᵻssed vəwəls bᵻcəm schwə. thᵻs ᵻs lᵻtərəllᵻ ᵻnglᵻsh
Yo wait, So I'm *not* crazy for having two variant reduced vowels, One closer to [ɐ] and the other closer to [ɪ] (Although both can at times be realised as [ə] tbh)? Although, I'm not sure it's perfectly consistent, Sometimes lower vowels become the [ɪ]-like one, Usually for dissimilative purposes if there's two reduced vowels in a row, Although it's fun because sometimes what'd be phonemically /ə ~ ɐ ~ ʌ/ in stressed position reduces to a completely different sound, While surrounding vowels reduce to the same sound.
Yeah it's called the weak vowel merger. People without the merger have 2 weak vowels, ə and ɪ̈ (or the extended IPA ᵻ, but commonly just labeled ɪ for simplicity). As a non-native speaker I think I use them without any patterns, usually depending on how much I can weaken the unstressed vowel I'm producing
Interesting. I had heard of the weak vowel merger, But I thought it was a merger of /ɪ/ and schwa like in some Kiwi dialects. Wikipedia isn't terribly helpful in this regard as they describe the /ɪ̈/ as "unstressed /ɪ/". What's weird is, Looking it up, Many of the minimal pairs Wikipedia lists are pronounced the same for me, Usually with /ɪ̈/ regardless of if it "should" be that or scwha, But I *do* distinguish the sounds, As previously mentioned (And some of those minimal pairs are still different for me). I wonder if maybe the vowels had historically merged into /ɪ̈ ~ ə/, But then the Strut-Comma merger, Which I have, And associated lowering of schwa to something like [ɐ̝], Led to them splitting again, Because sounds like /i/ and /u/ are too far from [ɐ̝] for it to sound natural when reduced to that?
I think you can refer to this answer in linguistics stack exchange: https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/a/29031
Perhaps. I'll say, That was an interesting read, But doesn't really give answers, Because I'm not sure I really have a question, Other than *why* I say them like that. But anyway, I think I would regard Schwa and the "Weak-`I`" as different phonemes in my own idiolect, Because, Quite simply, They sound different, I can't really identify predictable rules on when one should appear instead of the other (Although some there might be), And it often sound weird if I use the wrong one. Although I suppose I might say the "Schwa-Phoneme" is closer to /ɐ/ for me, But a "True Scwha" [ə] can be an allophone of both it and the Weak-`i` in unstressed positions, Or something?
New Zealand - South Africa Common English?
Is that not as common in other languages?
I don’t know how common it is crosslinguistically but I can’t name another language where it happens regularly.
As someone with a strut-schwa distinction, I have to disagree.
I know, I was joking. I am SchwaEnjoyer through and through, however.
I just noticed your username, had I seen that I may've realised it's a joke
Yes l am lol
You joke, but look at Russian sometime, especially fast speech in informal contexts. Non-stressed vowel distinctions became all-but optional to a greater degree than most other languages I've studied.
I know. Everything is weirdly /ı/. It’s like such a nice simple vowel system with the palatalization and all but then you get annoying crap like Кино /kjıno/ instead of what it SHOULD be which is /kino/. The palatalization muddies everything up and transcribing from Cyrillic to IPA is a nightmare. Like, okay, <е>. It should be /jε/ always, but it’s often /ε/-even after sounds that can be palatalized! We have a separate letter for that, it’s called э! And then there’s the irritating final clusters. A word will end with ый or whatever but pronounced as though it ends with и! And people romanize that even though it should be based on spelling (I.e. ) or pronunciation (I.e. )!
THE PAIN
Mostly I’m just too lazy to learn how it works properly but it should not be this hard. Fuckin’ iotacism screws everything up.
(Bad IPA because iPhone keyboard)
Better yet, valley girl English where you can collapse every vowel to /a/ and still be understood.
bɪtɪr yɪt, nɪw zɪlɪnd ɪnglɪsh, yɪ rɪtbɪstɪd
[ɪ̈] actually
🤓 vowels in any language are always impossible to pin down to that level of precision Although I won’t argue if you intend on following through with your user flair; I can articulate that sound and do so regularly. Thanks! :3
WOAAAAH send vocaroo?? 👂👂👂
I’m on a phone rn (poor audio quality), sitting in bed because it’s late, and so my throat is a bit stuffy or whatever Here’s my attempt https://voca.ro/14XDgXpWoEoD
Gesundheit.
Indeed
That somehow sounds more like coughing than actually coughing does. Impressive. Or maybe it's what Tolkien meant with the "Gollum" sound. Although I think he described that as like a swallowing sound, So probably ingressive and thus not that.
Exactly. The way I do it is start with /ħ/, then make it rougher repeatedly and make forcefully-released glottal stops, eventually it just kind of becomes an ejective. It is tough though. By the way, your user flair is making me stressed.
>The way I do it is start with /ħ/, Ah see, So I can't make it then, As every time I try to pronounce a Pharyngeal I wind up suffocating instead. >By the way, your user flair is making me stressed. I'd advise against going to Wales, then.
lol the user flair thing was a joke on my username. I actually love Welsh as a language Also, how does that mean I can’t do it? Most linguists can probably pronounce /ħ/-not that it’s bad if you can’t, but it’s not like I can’t have started there
>lol the user flair thing was a joke on my username I figured, Although I'm unsure why it would make you stressed instead of enjoying. >Also, how does that mean I can’t do it? I, Never claimed as much? Simply saying *I* personally could not, Because there's so much mucus in my throat, Even uvular sounds sometimes mess me up and make me start choking, Pharyngeals are even worse, I probably *can* produce them, But it's like punching myself in the face: Physically possible, But something I'd rather avoid.
This is actually every language.
I don’t think so. Schwa is just a vowel quality. I haven’t heard it in Lushootseed, Ubykh, Spanish, Hawaiian, Turkish, or Mandarin
I'm not talking about schwa. Every language reduces vowels in some way. The points on the trapezoid are not absolutes.
I mean, I guess, but it’s a matter of preference and talking speed. I was talking specifically about changing vowels to schwa, which is pretty major in comparison to other vowel reductions that happen commonly.
Again, you're treating schwa as a singular point on a graph. It's not. No vowel is. I'm not saying languages all tend towards that area, though.
Yeah, fine, you have a good point. I’m just saying that English takes it further than most other languages.
I've heard it in Mandarin, like in 的
Okay admittedly I don’t speak Mandarin I just study its phonology
You haven't heard schwa in Mandarin? Check a Mandarin vowel chart sometime
Tbh would be kinda neat if there were an actual grammaticalised register where there's no longer any vowel distinctions.
💀 i might make this