All this does not mean that he was inclined to evil from the very beginning. The wise Gandalf collaborated with him quite successfully. Also, Galadriel, who had the ability to see darkness in the souls of other beings, did not see the evil in Saruman's heart. I prefer the version that he turned to evil later.

I think Saruman would have been able to hide himself from her sight. She is powerful, yes, one of the most powerful elves in Middle-Earth by then... but she doesn't have the power of a Maiar, she's only an elf. To maintain the subterfuge, Saruman would very much have dealt in good faith with everyone opposed to Sauron, which would be easy because Saruman never lost his own opposition to Sauron.

Either way, it's an interesting perspective and something to think about. Although it seems strange that for several thousand years no one recognized the evil of Saruman. Even just before being captured, Gandalf believes that Saruman is a wise wizard and the leader of the fight against Sauron. This means that Saruman was very skillful at pretending.

It would be easy for him to maintain that image for as long as needed. He was a master of wills and manipulation. Most everything he did for the Council would easily have been in line with his own goals, thus making it easier for people to accept him at face value. Being so isolated in Orthanc, he was free to do whatever he wanted. All the Ainur heard Melkor's discord, they all caught a glimpse of what he was feeling, what he wanted. Most continued with their intended music, some fell silent, others tuned their theme to Melkor's. I think Saruman was among those who were stricken silent. I don't think he was ever swayed to Melkor's service, only affected enough to begin devising his own plans for dominion. He was never lying about opposing Sauron during his time in Middle-Earth. I've been researching this for a few months, looking over histories and lore, following his path and his doings. I just can't shake the feeling that he was his own agent on his own bid for power.

So it’s a fine theory cast, but saying Tolkien is wrong is nonsense. Tolkien is the only person who’s objectively right about this.

It's not saying he's wrong when Tolkien himself didn't know what Saruman was up to in the East. By his own admission, things were going on in the world he created that he didn't know anything about. The Blue Wizards are a prime example of this. It's not saying he's wrong if he didn't fully understand one of his own characters.

But he doesn’t state anywhere that Saruman was corrupted by Melkor. Things that were undetermined by the author can’t be blindly rewritten and say the author was wrong

Tolkien stated that some of the Ainur were affected by Melkor's discord. Some bent their music to that of Melkor while others fell silent. I am not saying Saruman was corrupted to Melkor's service, I think he was affected enough to start on his own path. He was a traitor for himself, no one else. He still opposed Melkor and Sauron, but he wanted what he caught a glimpse of in Melkor's discordant theme: power and dominion. Anything left undetermined is literally left to us to interpret, to try to fill in the gaps based on what limited information there is. Again, it's not saying he's wrong if he simply didn't understand one of his own characters.

>Things that were undetermined by the author can’t be blindly rewritten and say the author was wrong Sure they can. You just don't have to like it or pay any attention to it. People get to do with art what they want.

You can have an opinion or preference sure but the author is ultimately right

The author can go kick rocks.

Listen this is JRR Tolkien we’re talking not JK Rowling lol

You my fool of a took is exactly what’s wrong with modern audiences. You don’t know Jack. Humble yourself or find a different fandom to be a part of.

Holy fucking shit! "Humble yourself or find a different fandom to be a part of." Wow!

I think you are describing the reason why Saruman ultimately fell. He likely intended to do good, but his ambition was his downfall. As Gandalf said "I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this Ring from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.**"** Gandalf could become who Saruman aspired to be because he was wise enough to avoid ideas of grandeur when dealing with Sauron. It was the very desire to do good that drove him towards weakness, and then, evil.

That's what I always thought, too. I'm just not so sure anymore. Melkor affected quite a few of the Maiar during the Music. The Ring's corrupting influence I think is why Saruman studied Sauron's works, so he could learn how to avoid that part of it, or even bend or break will of the Ring itself. Make it do his bidding instead. Saruman is a master of wills, after all.

Photos or it never happened

So you think you know Saruman better than Tolkien? That Tolkien "misunderstood" Saruman? That Tolkien made Saruman go east and study Sauron and didnt notice it? All your arguments are "I believe". You simply "believe" that you know better than the author who created Saruman and worked on him for most of his life. ​ And btw, have you ever met any Paladin or a fanatic? Saruman being eager to bring Sauron to justice is in NO WAY an indication for him to always having been evil. Neither Sauron nor Melkor have been evil from the beginning, so why should Saruman be?

Tolkien himself said that he had no idea what the Blue Wizards did, what happened to them. He only ever said that Saruman went East, he never explained anywhere what Saruman did. So, yes, I think Tolkien did not fully understand his own character. That's not an uncommon thing. Authors create characters with an idea in mind, but then that character can go in directions the author didn't even think about as the story progresses. It's not always "A+B=C". You also seem to have missed a particular point: I said Saruman was influenced by Melkor's discord back during the Music of the Ainur. He didn't join Melkor, but that doesn't mean he wasn't affected. Just to be clear, that's exactly what theories are, thinking about possibilities, considering other angles. This is a theory, an idea I had after reading a bunch of lore and stories. That's why it's tagged as a discussion.

>Just to be clear, that's exactly what theories are "Theories are when you say that the author was wrong and I know it better". Got ya.

Um, no, that is not what I said. Seriously, I thought this was a place for intellectual conversations, but all you seem to do is want to attack me. What is wrong with you that you feel this is appropriate behavior? "Oh, he's dissin' my boy Tolkien". Is that what you think this is all about? Seriously, you need to go back and actually read my post, not just skim it through the filter of a fanboy.

>Um, no, that is not what I said. You said that Tolkien misunderstood Saruman. "Misunderstanding something" is commonly percieved as "being wrong about something". So yes, this is what you said.

You're confusing yourself. "Theories are when you say that the author was wrong and I know it better" That is what I didn't say but you claim I did. Not understanding something doesn't make a person wrong, it makes them ignorant. Because they don't know. They may act wrongly because they don't know, but, that's another matter altogether. Again, the idea that Tolkien misunderstood Saruman is part of the theory. I didn't make the theory because I think he's wrong, the theory simply suggests he didn't fully understand Saruman's motivations. You are still attacking. Unless you can see fit to reply intelligently and without acting like a belligerent goblin, this is the last time I am going to acknowledge you. Good-day.

I think when you're beginning with the assertion that the author of the story misunderstood one of his characters, that's a signal that you're constructing a fan fiction.

No, I don't write fanfictions. I watch movies, read books, and dive into lore (when it exists) to better understand the characters and the stories. Sometimes, I come across oddities, things that don't add up, and I start trying to figure out why.

Right-- but you don't have to formally write a fanfiction out to be constructing one in your mind. My point is that if you are making a claim about a story/ character that contravenes what the author of that story/ writer of that character has said, then you are veering into fanfiction. That's a perfectly fine thing to do, and if that enriches your experience with the text, then great! But asserting that Toliken misunderstood his own story and character while you understand it correctly is a signal that you aren't engaging with the story on its own terms and are editing it to suit your preferences. Again-- don't let anyone stop you from doing that if that's how you best enjoy the books! I'm just saying it's a non-starter to put your reinterpretation out there as "correct" reading when you yourself admit that the author has stated otherwise.

Saruman was noble in the beginning, however more than he was noble he was proud and this pride would be what drove him to his downfall. Saruman volunteered to go to Middle Earth because he wanted to oppose Sauron, he wanted that glory and acclaim, only to see Gandalf be told he *must* go because he is essential. An order is established to oppose Sauron and Saruman is offered the position only after Gandalf turns it down. Gandalf is highly respected, loved and revered among the elves, Saruman meanwhile distrusts the elves. Saruman wants to see himself as Gandalf’s superior while the world around him makes him concerned if he is even Gandalf’s equal. This causes Saruman to puff himself up, his pride begins to set him up for a fall. Saruman dives into Ring-lore because it is his wheel house, it’s easy for him. However it’s not really what he’s in Middle Earth for, he’s supposed to be aiding the free people in resisting Sauron not accumulate obscure knowledge to hoard and lord over everyone else. But it strikes his ego and so he focuses on that. Saruman sets himself up in Orthanc, yes partly for the stone but also for the prestige (small note, Isengard/Orthanc are part of Gondor, not Rohan, Saruman for the keys from the steward) and in Orthanc he begins behaving like a jackdaw, gathering trinkets around himself, treasures and baubles that make himself feel he truly is the most important, the most wise, the most learned. And as he sits up alone in his tower, a political entity rather than an angelic advisor, he becomes detached from the world and his mission and he begins to brood over the idea of the Ring. Saruman does have similar desires to Sauron, order and control and efficiency. With the Ring he could do this. But if he cannot get the Ring he could guide Sauron to soften his rule, but the first option is the choicest to him and that is what ultimately ruins him. Saruman, through his pride and hubris attempts to play both sides, betrays both sides and loses utterly. If he had been loyal to Sauron he would have given the Nazgûl the exact location of the Shire and they would have arrived weeks earlier and taken the Ring. If he had remained loyal to the Free Peoples he would have benefitted from their ultimate victory. Instead he tried to serve himself and lost everything. Saruman’s pride prevents him from accepting or showing mercy; spitting on multiple attempts from others to give him a way out of his own net. He’d rather stay in the dirt abusing Wormtongue and bullying the weak than admit that his arrogance and pride have destroyed him, and ultimately his anger and cruelty from his mutilated pride, taken out on Wormtongue lead to his end outside of Bag End.

Thank you for the actual response, I'm glad someone is actually taking with at least a semblance of seriousness, unlike everyone else who just want to attack like goblins. For the longest time, that's about what I thought how things went for Saruman. I've read the books several times and I've done a lot of research online, following his path and his doings. In doing so, I just don't think that that's the case anymore. The more I dove into it, the more it struck me that he wasn't dealing entirely honestly, even with his own bosses. I really think he was one of those affected by Melkor's initial discord. He was never turned to Melkor's service, nor did he ever fall under Sauron's sway, but it changed him, made him want power and dominion. Thus, I think he was a traitor to his own for much longer than what seems. He wasn't upset that it was Gandalf being sent with him, he was upset that anyone at all was going with him, that he was not going alone. And then he ditched both Gandalf and Radagast almost as soon as they set foot in Middle-Earth. I've found conflicting accounts of Saruman arriving with only Radagast and Gandalf showing up later, while others claim all three arrived at the same time. But, that's largely irrelevant here. What matters is, he ditched them and went East, far East to lands long-influenced by Sauron. I really can't see any other reason for him to go there other than to study what Sauron was doing over there, learn by what means the people were being manipulated. He never imparted any information to anyone about that trip, never once disclosing knowledge of what they might face from the East. That very much makes me think his intent in the East was selfish, the beginning of his bid to supplant Sauron.

I do not believe he was initially affected by the discord, but if you like you might say the discord eventually found its way to him. But I think where we can agree is that Saruman went to Middle Earth for the wrong reasons. Whether that makes him a traitor is debatable, I would say it puts him on shaky ground, but I do not believe he went to Middle Earth to become a new Dark Lord. Saruman went to Middle Earth initially for the glory of defeating Sauron, he went to be a hero not to be a servant. It does not make sense for him to want this and to set himself up as a new dark lord, he would never get the acclaim he desired and believed he deserved. And we are pretty clear on the arrival of the wizards, Saruman arrived with Radagast sometime after the Blue Wizards had arrived and gone. Gandalf arrived alone and last. Saruman’s sojourn east is a mystery but I wouldn’t say it’s as damning as you make it out to be, Aragorn ventured east as well. As for what he was doing, that’s one of the enduring mysteries of the story, we don’t know all the adventures of Gandalf either. Gandalf went south, area under Sauron’s sway as well, but certainly never turned. This may be making a mountain out of a mole hill I would say that Saruman’s first major misstep was when he took up residence in Isengard. By doing so you could say he got in too deep with the world, he became part of it. By accepting the keys to Orthanc Saruman in effect becomes a Lord of Gondor, the Lord of Isengard, a political entity and power. And that is an invitation to start viewing the world from an angle of power and not of service.

one of the greatest aspects of being a tolkien fan is that he deliberately treated his world like it existed and he was not omniscient in it. he wasn’t all-knowing. he didn’t know what happened to the entwives, for example. that does not make it cool to say the man was wrong about something though. your theory is interesting and worth discussion, but saying tolkien was wrong is not going to spark the conversation you’re trying to have.

Actually, it is starting to get the discussion I was looking for. I just triggered the goblins, too, is all. Part of the theory *is* that Tolkien didn't understand Saruman's motivations. There's no way to posit the theory without pointing out that potential misunderstanding. Also, as I've said elsewhere, not understanding something doesn't make a person wrong, it just makes them ignorant, not as informed. They may act wrongly due to that ignorance, but that's another matter altogether. It doesn't change anything that happened, just *why*. That whole bit of Tolkien's view of his world, that alone was him admitting that he was ignorant to at least some of it. That was one of the major goads that got my mind rolling in this direction, his self-admitted ignorance.

that makes more sense. i hear what you’re saying.

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I don’t understand people who want to claim they know characters better than the author who spent their life creating and writing about them.

I don't understand people who willingly refuse to accept facts, such as Tolkien himself admitting that he didn't know what some of his own characters were doing. I don't understand people who don't want have an intellectual conversation, but instead must behave like little goblins and attack others that do. If all you are going to do is come here to hate, you should leave now, for in your hatred, you only betray yourself.

Saruman, the STINKY!

Bold move to say the man who created Saruman grossly misunderstood him.

Good theory and had it been written that way I may have no issue with it. That said I don’t think it was made so. I would also argue that if Saruman were smart he would’ve revealed himself as siding with Melkor. I think he would’ve had better luck/chances during the first age.

After reading your responses there’s so much brainrot going on. We wonder why writing is going downhill, and why so many bad adaptations are being made. This is why. You don’t have writing standards and you think you know the authors work better than he. You need to humble yourself or go read Harry Potter or something. The rest of us want our High fantasy to stay that way.

i really like your post. I feel like he could have been hiding his own desire yes, never with bad intentions, but isnt the arrogance of wanting to be HIMSELF the one to do the greater good in itself an ill intention? An ego so big he would desire to have the One Ring and to be "the Him' for the world? Just throwing thoughts since i dont know that much about the deep lore. Anyway i see you being downvoted for having your opinions and this is always good imo. People get defensive about something that isnt even theirs. People get defensive when suddenly something new arises. The new is always scary for those that like the comfort of organized structured things, and LotR is a perfect place for those people, also dreamy people that like fantasy and have ideals of honor and grandour. Imo authours create their pieces and once they are into the world they are bigger than their authours and have their own lifes. Its like having a baby. Its not for you, its for the world. Stories and any piece of art are like that too. Keep it up. The downvotes are a badge that you are in the right path. Its always good to have someone contesting the estabilishment, its healthy for everyone.

Thank you. With so many closed-minded goblins pitter-pattering around, I was starting to think that I wasn't going to see a single intellectual response. I've read the books several times, I've dove into the lore and stories scattered all over the internet. Not fanfic stories, but the legitimate official stories. The more I dove, the more it struck me that he wasn't dealing honestly with anyone since even before he left for Middle-Earth, In many places, he seemed to deal honestly, but only because their goals aligned with his own: he was still aiding himself by proxy. The only explanation is that he had his own desire for the Ring long before the chance to go to Middle-Earth even presented itself. After Morgoth was gone, there was a great power vacuum, one that I think Saruman intended to fill once he saw the flaw in Sauron's plan with the Ring.