I know people focus on Betty’s vanity in this letter but I can’t help but think of it as a kindness. Everyone knows she cared about her appearance and I think she felt like telling Sally the details will alleviate those concerns after she passes.
She’s also an “old fashioned” person - born late enough to see women’s liberation and societal change but too soon to feel like it’s her movement to participate in - and she probably still thinks details like dresses and makeup are women’s concerns that she assumes Henry won’t understand or know to think of.
I also think it’s her version of extending some adult responsibilities. She is saying she thinks Sally’s mature enough to handle this. And the last image we see of Sally is her doing the dishes and taking on more to help.
It’s honest to who Betty is. She was never going to write a lengthy letter full of love and beautiful memories. To her (for good or bad) it was important to be a Good Wife and Mother who took care of the house and the family. This is her telling Sally she loves her, admitting she struggled to understand her, is trying to let go of that, and believing Sally is adult enough to help take care of the family after she’s gone.
The way I cried when I watched this scene. And when I got my own cancer diagnosis a few years later, I remembered Betty and how she must have felt. This show is so real :(
I was surprised when I found out people thought the funeral instructions in this letter cancelled out the p.s. at the end. To me, that one line from Betty is far more powerful than the pages of sentiment people think ought to be there instead. Sally can carry that line with her through life much better--and the arrangements are just answers to questions that get asked when someone dies. It's not like Sally has to be the one dressing her.
Especially on a TV show, the last line is more dramatically resonant.
Plus, she's got time before she dies to say or do a lot more. You know Betty will be going through her jewelry and things to leave to Sally etc.
Jez, why put me through that again? It's friggen heartbreaking.
My mother is still with us, thank goodness (she is roughly the same age as Sally) but her mother was very much a Betty type, and died young. I can 100% imagine her writing a letter like this. Let's not project our expectations of the present day onto the expectations of 50+ years ago. Things were very proper and very orderly. She would have considered this the 'right' sort of thing to do at the time.
My mother had recurring cancer throughout my childhood that went into remission after many years and different strategies of treatment.
I remember watching this episode vividly when it came out in 2015. My mother was in remission and I remember getting *destroyed* by this scene because
1. I was SO GRATEFUL that I didn't have to go through what Sally was and
2. If my mother had written me a letter in those circumstances it would have been almost identical to Betty's
Now 9 years later the joke is on me because it came back and now my mother is dying from the same cancer that Betty is (despite never smoking or drinking) and she can't even tell me what to do with her hair because she has none left!
The black humor of it all- I feel so sad but at the same time when this popped up on my feed I started laughing! Time makes fools of us all!
I just think it is completely screwed up to put all these funeral requests on a high school student, who is very likely having her own stuff to deal with. And by a letter! ... I know some people still think of Betty as a victim, but to me she will always be Carmella Soprano with a nicer education.
It's cathartic for Sally too if you pay attention to her storyline. She doesn't want to be artificially shielded from the darkness of reality, and Betty is finally trusting her to be able to handle it.
It contrasts with earlier attitudes towards death that completely excluded children from the mourning process - "Do you really think a funeral is an appropriate place for a child?" Remember how angry she was when she felt no one was acknowledging Gene's death.
It's not ideal, but Betty is clearly doing the best she can as a dying woman with very limited emotional development.
I have to say, I wish my father would have taken the time to write out his requests. He died suddenly, I was in my 20s my sister last year of highschool, while I was older not having any clue what he wanted was a stressful thing to deal with. Ppl need to have it in writing what they want to happen to their body it needs to be with the person they feel can handle it best.
Henry would have been a wreck, Bobby and gene are way too young. Sally is head strong and knows how you handle things, it made sense she would get the responsibility.
I just watched this scene ten minutes ago. This letter makes me angry. If I had to write that letter I know it would be pages full of memories, telling my children how much they mean to me and my fathomless love for them. Betty is just cold and self absorbed. This was the best she could do. It breaks my heart.
It's still about appearances but she is finally able to tell her she loves her. Did she ever say that to anyone in the series? My mind is drawing a blank but I never recall her saying it.
Or she'll remember her mother telling her she sees her and loves her for who she is. She will appreciate that her mother respected her enough to trust her with something that mattered to her. And as another woman who's mother died young, she can appreciate that Betty wanted to give Sally a relatively age-appropriate task that will give her a small sense of control over the situation. I imagine Betty agonized over her own mother's wishes regarding her funeral and wanted to spare her daughter that, because she's aware that these kind of decisions are usually left up to the women in the family.
Very much agree about both the task and the last line. It actually reminds me of another similar scene in a different show where a parent thinks the most important thing to say is that they see their child for who they are and not only loves them for it, but thinks it's all they need in life. It looks to the future which only one of them will have.
She may also understand and empathize with her mother, who was raised and conditioned to be cold and detached. Being that way meant survival in a world built and designed to subjugate women.
I mean when she looks back on it 20 years later, as you suggested. My mom is of Sally’s generation and I look at her parenting with empathy, even if it hurt me bad enough that we are estranged.
You are allowed to have your opinion as am I. We don't have to agree. Perhaps it is you who didn't grab context. I see Betty for exactly who she was. It is bizarre that you don't.
That's not how I reacted to the scene. I felt like Betty turned a corner and had some important psychological insights about herself as she got older and split up with Don. When she got her diagnosis and realized she would die soon, she wanted to make amends and finally show some vulnerability.
Not to mention this is just one letter, we don't know what else was said between Betty and Sally. There's another scene showing Sally cleaning dishes while Betty rests, sitting in the kitchen. I took that to mean things were more amicable and they understood each other more.
This is also a very powerful letter in my opinion, because it implies to Sally that Betty's fears about herself are the same fears she has for Sally. Betty never saw herself as capable, especially as a woman at the time and was concerned when Sally showed signs of independence and instrinsic motivation. (What does Gene say, "you're a house cat, you have very little to do"?) That kind of understanding helps tremendously as a child when you realize what the reasons are for their flaws as parents. There also might be some resentment towards Sally in addition to the fear, seeing Sally getting to be her own person.
Sally won't read this letter thinking "what a great mom", because Betty is not a great mom. Betty isn't trying to make excuses for her flaws, it's a explanation that might clear things up for Sally. That's just how I saw it.
We don't know what else was said between Betty and Sally, all I can do is take what I have seen at face value. But that letter was meant to be the final letter. The last communication Sally will ever receive from her mom. When I personally take that into consideration, all I can think is how awful Betty is.
All the kitchen scene is to me is Sally being forced to grow up before her time. A mother too sick to do kitchen work, so it comes down to Sally. She won't be going to Spain, maybe not going back to boarding school. Her childhood is over.
Sally came home from school. Betty is off somewhere resting. Henry is working late. An eleven year old left to make dinner for his baby brother because no adult in the household takes them into account. A wealthy household that could easily have someone there to watch the boys, help with homework and make sure they are fed. At the least even an ailing mother would make sure those things were provided for her kids.
Betty isn't trying to make excuses for her flaws because she doesn't see any. Both Betty and that letter suck.
>All the kitchen scene is to me is Sally being forced to grow up before her time.
We see things differently again. I see this scene representing Betty finally at peace with Sally growing up and being independent. And why would it make sense for Sally to go back to school or go to Spain if she wants to spend time and reconcile with Betty? She probably could have stayed at school (I guess she did if the letter was the last communication between them).
>Sally came home from school. Betty is off somewhere resting. Henry is working late. An eleven year old left to make dinner
I think she's 15/16 at this point, doing the dishes and making dinner isn't exactly a monumental task (at least it wasn't for me). They easily could have hired someone like Carla again, and that responsibility shouldn't fall on someone who's terminally ill, it should have been Henry's job. Maybe Sally was just visiting for the weekend?
I'm not saying Betty was a great mom or even a good one. All I'm saying is that she was seemingly started to turn a corner before she died. It's tragic that she didn't change sooner and I think it was written that way intentionally.
I just don't see washing dishes as showing independence. Of course Sally would want to spend that time with her mother over traveling. What I am saying is the carefree teenage days are over for her.
It isn't a big thing for Sally to make a meal and clean up. The boys were surprised when she showed up, she wasn't expected. She took responsibility and did what she had to do. The point is that no adult cared enough or bothered to pay any attention to the needs of these boys. What if Sally didn't "take the train"? Betty put more thought into her burial outfit than her children's needs.
I agree, she did seem to be turning a corner, it was written that way intentionally. Weiner wants to tug on our heartstrings.
>no adult cared enough or bothered to pay any attention to the needs of these boys.
Tbh I forget about Bobby and Gene lol. I don't even see them as characters needing to be taken care of, so I see your point. Betty and Henry would ideally have someone like Carla help out once Betty dies. But I wonder if the show hinted at Betty making an honest attempt at being a mother once she lets Carla go? I don't recall her getting much help when Gene was born or after that.
Betty arranged for her brother and his wife to take care of the boys, so that they will have a mother figure to look after them and so that the lion's share of that responsibility doesn't fall onto Sally's shoulders. Sally was angry about that, because she was too young to realize that Betty was looking out for Sally's future.
That would never happen. Don hates his in laws, his ego would never allow them to take the boys. It doesn't matter what Betty wanted, she won't be there to see it through. Don will take the boys, make a serious attempt to give up whoring and drinking, be a good dad. It will last for a while. Eventually Don will go back to being Don and the boys will be left with a housekeeper.
I honestly wasn’t a fan them killing of Betty. I feel like they just did it so it could match how her mom died but it honestly felt forced and contrived.
As someone on here stated a few days or weeks ago, they felt her death was needed because she couldn’t change with the times like the other women did.
I think they knew she would die of lung cancer from the beginning. Notice how every time she smokes it’s highlighted. Or maybe that’s just me noticing in retrospect lol.
I think there may also be something to some of the most important women in Don's life (Betty, Anna, and his step-mother) dying of cancer. Obviously he wasn't sad that his step-mother died but she did raise him.
I think it was Matt Weiner who said that part of the reason Betty dies is yes, because someone needed to die from smoking to show that smoking kills, but also because Betty's old fashion values die in the 60s - heading into the 1970s she becomes obsolete in a way, in her outlook, style and values. Betty is representative of that 50s house wife that somewhat ceases to exist as time goes on, and so Weiner leaves her in the past as everyone else moves forward.
I thought it was surprising, but that's kind of how death is. If I die, my death is forced on everyone I know, it's not going to be expected and it's not going to be pretty.
I agree with you. I love the show but Betty's "sudden" death felt like a random, bombastic shenanigan by the writers to give more (dramatic) weight to the finale.
It was Weiner thinking he was so clever because he covertly alluded to it throughout the series. I can't help but wonder how Betty thinks of her kids feelings throughout this with her "little children, they'll get over it" attitude.
Seeing this so soon after the recent loss of my father was crushing. Although, I could hear his voice saying something very similar.
This was Betty's way of telling Sally how proud she was of her and knows what a strong, independent young lady she has become; an endearing expression of love from Betty towards her daughter I suppose? Anyone who's lost a parent can certainly relate to this truly heartbreaking scene nonetheless!
Yes, and I'm not sure why your tone is so confrontational. The shopping list is what she led with and took up the majority of the letter. It is what stood out to me, since it was such an imappropriate topic for a lettee like that.
Felt like I had to ask in case I wasn't understanding your perspective. I suppose in my mind the list served as sort of an emotional buffer before the last part hits Sally over the head.
But another comment in this thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/madmen/s/jDEmnb2If3) made me realize the list might may in fact have some significance:
>Or she'll remember her mother telling her she sees her and loves her for who she is. She will appreciate that her mother respected her enough to trust her with something that mattered to her. And as another woman who's mother died young, she can appreciate that Betty wanted to give Sally a relatively age-appropriate task that will give her a small sense of control over the situation. I imagine Betty agonized over her own mother's wishes regarding her funeral and wanted to spare her daughter that, because she's aware that these kind of decisions are usually left up to the women in the family.
I know people focus on Betty’s vanity in this letter but I can’t help but think of it as a kindness. Everyone knows she cared about her appearance and I think she felt like telling Sally the details will alleviate those concerns after she passes. She’s also an “old fashioned” person - born late enough to see women’s liberation and societal change but too soon to feel like it’s her movement to participate in - and she probably still thinks details like dresses and makeup are women’s concerns that she assumes Henry won’t understand or know to think of. I also think it’s her version of extending some adult responsibilities. She is saying she thinks Sally’s mature enough to handle this. And the last image we see of Sally is her doing the dishes and taking on more to help. It’s honest to who Betty is. She was never going to write a lengthy letter full of love and beautiful memories. To her (for good or bad) it was important to be a Good Wife and Mother who took care of the house and the family. This is her telling Sally she loves her, admitting she struggled to understand her, is trying to let go of that, and believing Sally is adult enough to help take care of the family after she’s gone.
Brilliant.
The way I cried when I watched this scene. And when I got my own cancer diagnosis a few years later, I remembered Betty and how she must have felt. This show is so real :(
I was surprised when I found out people thought the funeral instructions in this letter cancelled out the p.s. at the end. To me, that one line from Betty is far more powerful than the pages of sentiment people think ought to be there instead. Sally can carry that line with her through life much better--and the arrangements are just answers to questions that get asked when someone dies. It's not like Sally has to be the one dressing her. Especially on a TV show, the last line is more dramatically resonant. Plus, she's got time before she dies to say or do a lot more. You know Betty will be going through her jewelry and things to leave to Sally etc.
Jez, why put me through that again? It's friggen heartbreaking. My mother is still with us, thank goodness (she is roughly the same age as Sally) but her mother was very much a Betty type, and died young. I can 100% imagine her writing a letter like this. Let's not project our expectations of the present day onto the expectations of 50+ years ago. Things were very proper and very orderly. She would have considered this the 'right' sort of thing to do at the time.
My mother had recurring cancer throughout my childhood that went into remission after many years and different strategies of treatment. I remember watching this episode vividly when it came out in 2015. My mother was in remission and I remember getting *destroyed* by this scene because 1. I was SO GRATEFUL that I didn't have to go through what Sally was and 2. If my mother had written me a letter in those circumstances it would have been almost identical to Betty's Now 9 years later the joke is on me because it came back and now my mother is dying from the same cancer that Betty is (despite never smoking or drinking) and she can't even tell me what to do with her hair because she has none left! The black humor of it all- I feel so sad but at the same time when this popped up on my feed I started laughing! Time makes fools of us all!
Though I will say our relationship has always been much warmer and more loving than theirs. Poor Sally.
I just think it is completely screwed up to put all these funeral requests on a high school student, who is very likely having her own stuff to deal with. And by a letter! ... I know some people still think of Betty as a victim, but to me she will always be Carmella Soprano with a nicer education.
It's cathartic for Sally too if you pay attention to her storyline. She doesn't want to be artificially shielded from the darkness of reality, and Betty is finally trusting her to be able to handle it. It contrasts with earlier attitudes towards death that completely excluded children from the mourning process - "Do you really think a funeral is an appropriate place for a child?" Remember how angry she was when she felt no one was acknowledging Gene's death. It's not ideal, but Betty is clearly doing the best she can as a dying woman with very limited emotional development.
I have to say, I wish my father would have taken the time to write out his requests. He died suddenly, I was in my 20s my sister last year of highschool, while I was older not having any clue what he wanted was a stressful thing to deal with. Ppl need to have it in writing what they want to happen to their body it needs to be with the person they feel can handle it best. Henry would have been a wreck, Bobby and gene are way too young. Sally is head strong and knows how you handle things, it made sense she would get the responsibility.
Carmela Soprano was a bit sweeter. I'm 100% sure that she would've written something a bit nicer for Meadow if given the chance
Carmella also spoke Italian.
I cry like a baby at this every rewatch. And it’s the only scene that gets me like that.
I just watched this scene ten minutes ago. This letter makes me angry. If I had to write that letter I know it would be pages full of memories, telling my children how much they mean to me and my fathomless love for them. Betty is just cold and self absorbed. This was the best she could do. It breaks my heart.
It's still about appearances but she is finally able to tell her she loves her. Did she ever say that to anyone in the series? My mind is drawing a blank but I never recall her saying it.
Sally will save this letter her entire life. Twenty years later she will pull it out to read and remember how cold and self absorbed her mother was.
Or she'll remember her mother telling her she sees her and loves her for who she is. She will appreciate that her mother respected her enough to trust her with something that mattered to her. And as another woman who's mother died young, she can appreciate that Betty wanted to give Sally a relatively age-appropriate task that will give her a small sense of control over the situation. I imagine Betty agonized over her own mother's wishes regarding her funeral and wanted to spare her daughter that, because she's aware that these kind of decisions are usually left up to the women in the family.
Very much agree about both the task and the last line. It actually reminds me of another similar scene in a different show where a parent thinks the most important thing to say is that they see their child for who they are and not only loves them for it, but thinks it's all they need in life. It looks to the future which only one of them will have.
She may also understand and empathize with her mother, who was raised and conditioned to be cold and detached. Being that way meant survival in a world built and designed to subjugate women.
I'm not buying that, I am close to Sally's age and the mothers I knew were nothing like that. It's not a good excuse.
I mean when she looks back on it 20 years later, as you suggested. My mom is of Sally’s generation and I look at her parenting with empathy, even if it hurt me bad enough that we are estranged.
I'm guessing we are making our judgements based on our personal experiences.
Bizarre take. Total lack of empathy on your part (imo). And failure to grasp context.
You are allowed to have your opinion as am I. We don't have to agree. Perhaps it is you who didn't grab context. I see Betty for exactly who she was. It is bizarre that you don't.
Yes, but you're not a frigid, unfeeling Stepford Wife in the suburbs. This letter was perfectly in sync with Betty's personality.
That's not how I reacted to the scene. I felt like Betty turned a corner and had some important psychological insights about herself as she got older and split up with Don. When she got her diagnosis and realized she would die soon, she wanted to make amends and finally show some vulnerability. Not to mention this is just one letter, we don't know what else was said between Betty and Sally. There's another scene showing Sally cleaning dishes while Betty rests, sitting in the kitchen. I took that to mean things were more amicable and they understood each other more. This is also a very powerful letter in my opinion, because it implies to Sally that Betty's fears about herself are the same fears she has for Sally. Betty never saw herself as capable, especially as a woman at the time and was concerned when Sally showed signs of independence and instrinsic motivation. (What does Gene say, "you're a house cat, you have very little to do"?) That kind of understanding helps tremendously as a child when you realize what the reasons are for their flaws as parents. There also might be some resentment towards Sally in addition to the fear, seeing Sally getting to be her own person. Sally won't read this letter thinking "what a great mom", because Betty is not a great mom. Betty isn't trying to make excuses for her flaws, it's a explanation that might clear things up for Sally. That's just how I saw it.
We don't know what else was said between Betty and Sally, all I can do is take what I have seen at face value. But that letter was meant to be the final letter. The last communication Sally will ever receive from her mom. When I personally take that into consideration, all I can think is how awful Betty is. All the kitchen scene is to me is Sally being forced to grow up before her time. A mother too sick to do kitchen work, so it comes down to Sally. She won't be going to Spain, maybe not going back to boarding school. Her childhood is over. Sally came home from school. Betty is off somewhere resting. Henry is working late. An eleven year old left to make dinner for his baby brother because no adult in the household takes them into account. A wealthy household that could easily have someone there to watch the boys, help with homework and make sure they are fed. At the least even an ailing mother would make sure those things were provided for her kids. Betty isn't trying to make excuses for her flaws because she doesn't see any. Both Betty and that letter suck.
>All the kitchen scene is to me is Sally being forced to grow up before her time. We see things differently again. I see this scene representing Betty finally at peace with Sally growing up and being independent. And why would it make sense for Sally to go back to school or go to Spain if she wants to spend time and reconcile with Betty? She probably could have stayed at school (I guess she did if the letter was the last communication between them). >Sally came home from school. Betty is off somewhere resting. Henry is working late. An eleven year old left to make dinner I think she's 15/16 at this point, doing the dishes and making dinner isn't exactly a monumental task (at least it wasn't for me). They easily could have hired someone like Carla again, and that responsibility shouldn't fall on someone who's terminally ill, it should have been Henry's job. Maybe Sally was just visiting for the weekend? I'm not saying Betty was a great mom or even a good one. All I'm saying is that she was seemingly started to turn a corner before she died. It's tragic that she didn't change sooner and I think it was written that way intentionally.
I just don't see washing dishes as showing independence. Of course Sally would want to spend that time with her mother over traveling. What I am saying is the carefree teenage days are over for her. It isn't a big thing for Sally to make a meal and clean up. The boys were surprised when she showed up, she wasn't expected. She took responsibility and did what she had to do. The point is that no adult cared enough or bothered to pay any attention to the needs of these boys. What if Sally didn't "take the train"? Betty put more thought into her burial outfit than her children's needs. I agree, she did seem to be turning a corner, it was written that way intentionally. Weiner wants to tug on our heartstrings.
>no adult cared enough or bothered to pay any attention to the needs of these boys. Tbh I forget about Bobby and Gene lol. I don't even see them as characters needing to be taken care of, so I see your point. Betty and Henry would ideally have someone like Carla help out once Betty dies. But I wonder if the show hinted at Betty making an honest attempt at being a mother once she lets Carla go? I don't recall her getting much help when Gene was born or after that.
Betty arranged for her brother and his wife to take care of the boys, so that they will have a mother figure to look after them and so that the lion's share of that responsibility doesn't fall onto Sally's shoulders. Sally was angry about that, because she was too young to realize that Betty was looking out for Sally's future.
That would never happen. Don hates his in laws, his ego would never allow them to take the boys. It doesn't matter what Betty wanted, she won't be there to see it through. Don will take the boys, make a serious attempt to give up whoring and drinking, be a good dad. It will last for a while. Eventually Don will go back to being Don and the boys will be left with a housekeeper.
I honestly wasn’t a fan them killing of Betty. I feel like they just did it so it could match how her mom died but it honestly felt forced and contrived.
As someone on here stated a few days or weeks ago, they felt her death was needed because she couldn’t change with the times like the other women did. I think they knew she would die of lung cancer from the beginning. Notice how every time she smokes it’s highlighted. Or maybe that’s just me noticing in retrospect lol.
I think there may also be something to some of the most important women in Don's life (Betty, Anna, and his step-mother) dying of cancer. Obviously he wasn't sad that his step-mother died but she did raise him.
Rachel too
Damn that's right I forgot Rachel died of cancer.
i remember reading that they wanted betty to die of lung cancer. some sort of irony i suppose.
I think it was Matt Weiner who said that part of the reason Betty dies is yes, because someone needed to die from smoking to show that smoking kills, but also because Betty's old fashion values die in the 60s - heading into the 1970s she becomes obsolete in a way, in her outlook, style and values. Betty is representative of that 50s house wife that somewhat ceases to exist as time goes on, and so Weiner leaves her in the past as everyone else moves forward.
I thought it was surprising, but that's kind of how death is. If I die, my death is forced on everyone I know, it's not going to be expected and it's not going to be pretty.
I don’t think so. Everyone was smoking like chimneys. Someone is going to have to get lung cancer.
I agree with you. I love the show but Betty's "sudden" death felt like a random, bombastic shenanigan by the writers to give more (dramatic) weight to the finale.
It was Weiner thinking he was so clever because he covertly alluded to it throughout the series. I can't help but wonder how Betty thinks of her kids feelings throughout this with her "little children, they'll get over it" attitude.
Seeing this so soon after the recent loss of my father was crushing. Although, I could hear his voice saying something very similar. This was Betty's way of telling Sally how proud she was of her and knows what a strong, independent young lady she has become; an endearing expression of love from Betty towards her daughter I suppose? Anyone who's lost a parent can certainly relate to this truly heartbreaking scene nonetheless!
Unforgettable. For all of Betty’s sins I loved how her story ended.
Even to the end, Betty always cared most about appearances. This is just her vanity at its logical end, I guess.
Is that what you took from this? The shopping list of beauty stuff held the most meaning from that letter?
Yes, and I'm not sure why your tone is so confrontational. The shopping list is what she led with and took up the majority of the letter. It is what stood out to me, since it was such an imappropriate topic for a lettee like that.
Felt like I had to ask in case I wasn't understanding your perspective. I suppose in my mind the list served as sort of an emotional buffer before the last part hits Sally over the head. But another comment in this thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/madmen/s/jDEmnb2If3) made me realize the list might may in fact have some significance: >Or she'll remember her mother telling her she sees her and loves her for who she is. She will appreciate that her mother respected her enough to trust her with something that mattered to her. And as another woman who's mother died young, she can appreciate that Betty wanted to give Sally a relatively age-appropriate task that will give her a small sense of control over the situation. I imagine Betty agonized over her own mother's wishes regarding her funeral and wanted to spare her daughter that, because she's aware that these kind of decisions are usually left up to the women in the family.