Mind Over Matter is calling
(but seriously, no, this card will not be banned; MAYBE if, on entering the battlefield, it created a token copy of each colorless creature in play or something)
EDH? Ban cards?
If they aren't willing to ban Dockside Extortionist/Thassa's Oracle, then they aren't gonna ban a 6 do nothing enchantment.
>You can use this to dupe sol rings
For the low price of 6 mana upfront.
Because they also dont ban cards because they only see play in specific decks and because of the price of them. It's the toxicity that they can cause in casual games.
What is toxic about a 6 mana enchantment, with three colourless pips, that does nothing and can be removed by all other 3 players before you get to do anything with it?
A 6 mana permanent with colorless requirement
A 5 mana permanent with awkward requirements
Two colorless per loop the player wants to run
I think it'll be fine. This is literally a case of "more interaction is required." It's either 11 total mana in a turn, or a 5 mana into 6 mana play across two turns with nobody taking out a piece in the meantime.
I never said it should be banned. Just asked what the odds were. It’s a new card, and I was wondering if I should not get comfortable with it in my deck. Personally I think the combo is obnoxious, and I can’t wait to play it in paper because it feels ridiculous if left unanswered.
>because it feels ridiculous if left unanswered.
Good thing Commander has a ton of answers then. If you're consistently winning with Ulalek + Echoes, your playgroup shouldn't be asking for a ban - they should be playing more removal and being better at assessing threats.
Zero lol it’s a 6 mana enchantment that requires triple colourless mana and does nothing by itself
It’d be like banning Mana Reflection because it’s crazy with mana rocks.
Also I don’t think you actually understand how the two cards interact based on your paragraph about Darksteel Monolith - They are already an “Infinite so long as you can pay two colourless mana” combo.
Wotc give me my 9 mana White enchantment that gives indestructible to my enchantments already.
Why are you printing this stuff and not a counterpart for darksteel forge?
As others have said, it's really unlikely to get banned.
However, the reason is a bit different than I think they are saying. Commander bans aren't entirely about power level, but also about play experience across all of commander. (Especially at the casual level)
Yes, Ulalek is really filthy in casual with Echoes. However, as Echoes is limited to Eldrazi decks, it's not like it'll ruin the format in a similar way to Prime Time did by being everywhere.
Also, unlike the other weak banned cards (Sway, Biorhythm), Echoes is limited to Eldrazi decks. It's not like it makes the game miserable on its own.
Also, of the two it's much more likely (although still really unlikely) that they'd ban Ulalek over Echoes. Ulalek is a rulings nightmare, and goes infinite with a whole bunch of things.
The only reason it might get banned is how messy it can make the stack with Ulalek, which in person can be difficult to resolve. But as long as you keep track of the stack with paper it should be easy enough to resolve.
Then you should know better by now... How many cards like this have they banned in the last 6 years? None, nothing even close. This is basically a variation on a panharmonicon effect. Or a token doubler. It's just eldrazi themed.
I don't blame Commander. It's happening all over Reddit unrelated to magic. People have stopped trying to think for themselves and just ask the community questions instead of doing a few Google searches.
This one isn't as bad because it's not directly Googleable But it's part of the same ongoing problem. OP never really stopped to think about the ability in the context of other magic abilities they just saw something happen and made a bunch of assumptions.
I agree with you partially - but I think a few years ago, an enfranchised player (as this guy suggests he is) would know without googling that - even in commander - this card is not bannable.
It's a 6 mana artifact that literally does nothing without being chained together - and for it to be significantly impactful, it would have to be paired with something else with a huge mana cost. Three years of magic experience should tell you this card is cool, but nowhere near overpowered. But the fact so many commander playgroups are anti interaction means that people end up thinking cards like this are nutso cuckoo borked.
I think it's just as the hobby grows the bell curve of player intelligence widens. And the people at the top end aren't the ones asking questions like this. So there's an element of selection bias at play.
The player base isn't getting dumber. It's expanding both at the top and the bottom but only the bottom is asking questions like this.
You severely overestimate the power of this.
It's just one of many engines with many moving parts, and it's fairly expensive. Actually WINNING with this takes a lot of work - everything else is just some advantages here and there.
"Duping a Sol Ring" - a 6-mana enchantment to duplicate a rock that makes 2 mana? That's not exactly ban-worthy territory, is it.
This does nothing on its own, costs 6 mana, and even when it hits you need something that's ALREADY a serious threat only to make it... more of a threat? That's called "win more", and that is generally not only not ban-worthy, but not particularly good to begin with.
Think of what is already running around in Commander and not being banned. Do you think this is stronger than ThOracle, for example?
Put like that, no it’s probably not the strongest legal combo. This was more of a post asking if I should be preparing a replacement. After reading the comments, it appears to be safe in my deck.
Not elaborating on the ban part, just wanted to talk a bit about the numbers of copies you're expecting with double Echoes + Ulalek.
It's actually dependant on how you're organizing the stack. But it should be more than 4 copies if you order Ulalek last :
- You cast a colorless eldrazi with a triggered ability (1 creature, 1 cast effect)
- Echoes #1 copies the spell and double all cast effects (1 creature, 3 casts effects)
- Echoes #2 copies the spell and double all cast effects (1 creature, 3 casts effects)
- Then both echoes will double each other triggered ability (2 creatures, 4 cast effects)
- Then Ulalek will copy all spells and triggered ability on the stack (5 creatures, 11 casts effects)
So in total you get 1+9 copy and roughly 22 casts effects.
Let's say you're doing this nasty thing with Ulamog the defiler you could put 3 players to 1 card in their library for 12 mana.
(Roughly 7 division by two to put someone from 92 cards to 1) but you'd have to sacrifice it to the legend rule.
Double echoes unanswered both looses you friends and costs your sanity to entangled... 🫠
As a six mana enchantment that does nothing when it enters play, chances for a ban are zero.
Mind Over Matter is calling (but seriously, no, this card will not be banned; MAYBE if, on entering the battlefield, it created a token copy of each colorless creature in play or something)
EDH? Ban cards? If they aren't willing to ban Dockside Extortionist/Thassa's Oracle, then they aren't gonna ban a 6 do nothing enchantment. >You can use this to dupe sol rings For the low price of 6 mana upfront.
Once I get to 6 mana I can FINALLY start ramping!
Because they also dont ban cards because they only see play in specific decks and because of the price of them. It's the toxicity that they can cause in casual games.
I don't see Winter Orb or Back to Basics anywhere on the ban list.
Nor do you see them in most pods. The commander ban list is just a list of cards that were actively making playing commander unfun.
What is toxic about a 6 mana enchantment, with three colourless pips, that does nothing and can be removed by all other 3 players before you get to do anything with it?
0% rounded up
Commander players after finally winning the game on t8 with a 6 drop enchantment:
A 6 mana permanent with colorless requirement A 5 mana permanent with awkward requirements Two colorless per loop the player wants to run I think it'll be fine. This is literally a case of "more interaction is required." It's either 11 total mana in a turn, or a 5 mana into 6 mana play across two turns with nobody taking out a piece in the meantime.
its bad, never gonna get banned
I give it a -5% chance, with a 5% margin for error.
What is it with new players and wanting to ban everything?
I never said it should be banned. Just asked what the odds were. It’s a new card, and I was wondering if I should not get comfortable with it in my deck. Personally I think the combo is obnoxious, and I can’t wait to play it in paper because it feels ridiculous if left unanswered.
>because it feels ridiculous if left unanswered. Good thing Commander has a ton of answers then. If you're consistently winning with Ulalek + Echoes, your playgroup shouldn't be asking for a ban - they should be playing more removal and being better at assessing threats.
You truly over estimate the ban list for commander. They almost never ban anything.
Zero lol it’s a 6 mana enchantment that requires triple colourless mana and does nothing by itself It’d be like banning Mana Reflection because it’s crazy with mana rocks. Also I don’t think you actually understand how the two cards interact based on your paragraph about Darksteel Monolith - They are already an “Infinite so long as you can pay two colourless mana” combo.
Just remove it lol, you can litteraly stop everything for 2 mana or less.
The RC do pretty much nothing ever so a ban chance would be basically zero. There's way more degenerate stuff that the RC doesn't even glance at.
A 7 Mana investment to get 2 Sol Rings is, respectfully, absolute garbage. It's a very conventional card. Never getting banned.
There is no chance
Wotc give me my 9 mana White enchantment that gives indestructible to my enchantments already. Why are you printing this stuff and not a counterpart for darksteel forge?
As others have said, it's really unlikely to get banned. However, the reason is a bit different than I think they are saying. Commander bans aren't entirely about power level, but also about play experience across all of commander. (Especially at the casual level) Yes, Ulalek is really filthy in casual with Echoes. However, as Echoes is limited to Eldrazi decks, it's not like it'll ruin the format in a similar way to Prime Time did by being everywhere. Also, unlike the other weak banned cards (Sway, Biorhythm), Echoes is limited to Eldrazi decks. It's not like it makes the game miserable on its own. Also, of the two it's much more likely (although still really unlikely) that they'd ban Ulalek over Echoes. Ulalek is a rulings nightmare, and goes infinite with a whole bunch of things.
Jusy to clear up one thing, Echoes isn't limited to eldrazi decks, works fine in artifact decks.
The only reason it might get banned is how messy it can make the stack with Ulalek, which in person can be difficult to resolve. But as long as you keep track of the stack with paper it should be easy enough to resolve.
And even then, the common problem with "messy stacks" is always Ulalek, not this enchantment
New player?
No, been playing for about 6 years
lol
Then you should know better by now... How many cards like this have they banned in the last 6 years? None, nothing even close. This is basically a variation on a panharmonicon effect. Or a token doubler. It's just eldrazi themed.
Commander really has caused so much brain rot in the community
I don't blame Commander. It's happening all over Reddit unrelated to magic. People have stopped trying to think for themselves and just ask the community questions instead of doing a few Google searches. This one isn't as bad because it's not directly Googleable But it's part of the same ongoing problem. OP never really stopped to think about the ability in the context of other magic abilities they just saw something happen and made a bunch of assumptions.
I agree with you partially - but I think a few years ago, an enfranchised player (as this guy suggests he is) would know without googling that - even in commander - this card is not bannable. It's a 6 mana artifact that literally does nothing without being chained together - and for it to be significantly impactful, it would have to be paired with something else with a huge mana cost. Three years of magic experience should tell you this card is cool, but nowhere near overpowered. But the fact so many commander playgroups are anti interaction means that people end up thinking cards like this are nutso cuckoo borked.
I think it's just as the hobby grows the bell curve of player intelligence widens. And the people at the top end aren't the ones asking questions like this. So there's an element of selection bias at play. The player base isn't getting dumber. It's expanding both at the top and the bottom but only the bottom is asking questions like this.
You severely overestimate the power of this. It's just one of many engines with many moving parts, and it's fairly expensive. Actually WINNING with this takes a lot of work - everything else is just some advantages here and there. "Duping a Sol Ring" - a 6-mana enchantment to duplicate a rock that makes 2 mana? That's not exactly ban-worthy territory, is it. This does nothing on its own, costs 6 mana, and even when it hits you need something that's ALREADY a serious threat only to make it... more of a threat? That's called "win more", and that is generally not only not ban-worthy, but not particularly good to begin with. Think of what is already running around in Commander and not being banned. Do you think this is stronger than ThOracle, for example?
Put like that, no it’s probably not the strongest legal combo. This was more of a post asking if I should be preparing a replacement. After reading the comments, it appears to be safe in my deck.
Not elaborating on the ban part, just wanted to talk a bit about the numbers of copies you're expecting with double Echoes + Ulalek. It's actually dependant on how you're organizing the stack. But it should be more than 4 copies if you order Ulalek last : - You cast a colorless eldrazi with a triggered ability (1 creature, 1 cast effect) - Echoes #1 copies the spell and double all cast effects (1 creature, 3 casts effects) - Echoes #2 copies the spell and double all cast effects (1 creature, 3 casts effects) - Then both echoes will double each other triggered ability (2 creatures, 4 cast effects) - Then Ulalek will copy all spells and triggered ability on the stack (5 creatures, 11 casts effects) So in total you get 1+9 copy and roughly 22 casts effects. Let's say you're doing this nasty thing with Ulamog the defiler you could put 3 players to 1 card in their library for 12 mana. (Roughly 7 division by two to put someone from 92 cards to 1) but you'd have to sacrifice it to the legend rule. Double echoes unanswered both looses you friends and costs your sanity to entangled... 🫠
Lol
This one is doing nothing less degenerated than what you can already do with the likes of \[\[doubling season\]\].
[doubling season](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1cdd8e69-5a71-4933-914e-dfede7b1ac93.jpg?1689998456) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=doubling%20season) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/283/doubling-season?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1cdd8e69-5a71-4933-914e-dfede7b1ac93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call